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Penev
28483 Posts
On April 23 2015 07:43 BlackZetsu wrote: There's a picture of his screen right above. He had red/green on. Not necessarily, that's a picture of the observers screen with MK's vision (but the observers settings) | ||
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maGicc
Finland134 Posts
Btw, another thing that did disgust me was Wolf/Valdes saying on air stuff like "Please, forget about it, there was no evidence, move on" - thats just just them being : 1) Offensive to any intelligent viewers out there, threating them like a bunch of stupid sheeps 2) Blatanly dishonest - during the match, in a heat of a moment caster's opinion was "i couldnt believe that happened, it was the most bizzare game i've casted", they couldnt even rationalize on the spot how it was possible to play like MKP did. And yet like 2 weeks later they go on air like "Well, whatever, nothing happened, move on please." Really? | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On April 23 2015 08:05 maGicc wrote: People who are analyzing the gameplay and the possibility of MKP just being legit retarded should realize that there was nothing going on in the game, he had nowhere else to micro, nowhere else to look. Unless he did suddenly become a wood league player who was mouseclicking worker production during all that time - he would've noticed the spine that was on his minimap for like over a minute. Btw, another thing that did disgust me was Wolf/Valdes saying on air stuff like "Please, forget about it, there was no evidence, move on" - thats just just them being : 1) Offensive to any intelligent viewers out there, threating them like a bunch of stupid sheeps 2) Blatanly dishonest - during the match, in a heat of a moment caster's opinion was "i couldnt believe that happened, it was the most bizzare game i've casted", they couldnt even rationalize on the spot how it was possible to play like MKP did. And yet like 2 weeks later they go on air like "Well, whatever, nothing happened, move on please." Really? No doubt GOM also has an interest in keeping the issue quiet. That seems to be the Korean leagues' strategy right now, even though they're just making it a ticking time bomb. | ||
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mechengineer123
Ukraine711 Posts
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me. It is also the same player who lost 12 TvZ's in a row due to forgetting his depot wall was lowered. A lot of his losses look like he's having a laugh and there's no way he's been matchfixing all those games for years. The more logical conclusion is that he's just not a smart player. Occasionally the meta agreed with his timing pushes and he won some stuff, aside from that he's been plain bad. ps. I'm not saying he definitely didn't matchfix, but "he played poorly so he's matchfixing" isn't a strong argument. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On April 23 2015 02:23 Volband wrote: If you want a short and blunt answer: yes, I do. [...] There are quite a lot of people that don't want to vaccinate themselves or their kids because they think it's dangerous, while all the scientific evidence shows the opposite. They did a study on this where they took a bunch of anti-vaccination people and sent them through some education on the science of vaccination, and tested their opinion and knowledge of vaccination before and after. Turned out that they did get more educated and many of the common misunderstandings were corrected, but they were still as opposed, or more in some cases, to actually do it themselves or on their kids. Point being, to convince people about something, throwing "facts" at them, contradicting their standpoint, sometimes simply doesn't do the trick. I guess it is an emotional response where you polarise the discussion? I don't think it's a matter of people being stupid or mentally handicapped, or "bad at the game" or whatever people are insinuating. Probably it's just a matter of a quickly formed opinion at some point, which has then been reinforced through the very polarising environment in these threads. So I think a better strategy to convince people is to acknowledge them a bit more, trying to defuse the polarisation a bit, and then gently point them to where they can find good information. But if you find insults effective, we can do good cop - bad cop...  | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
On April 23 2015 08:54 mechengineer123 wrote: It is also the same player who lost 12 TvZ's in a row due to forgetting his depot wall was lowered. A lot of his losses look like he's having a laugh and there's no way he's been matchfixing all those games for years. The more logical conclusion is that he's just not a smart player. Occasionally the meta agreed with his timing pushes and he won some stuff, aside from that he's been plain bad. ps. I'm not saying he definitely didn't matchfix, but "he played poorly so he's matchfixing" isn't a strong argument. You do realize lowering a depot is a complete different situation? It's like saying Naniwa didn't lose on purpose when he a-moved his workers in to Nestea's base in the beginning of the match, because in one of his games before he forgot warpgate. I mean how bad do you have to play, where's the line? Every pro player that has commented on the matter say that line was crossed here. What does that tell you? Not a single pro (to my knowledge) has defended MK's play. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On April 23 2015 08:54 mechengineer123 wrote: ps. I'm not saying he definitely didn't matchfix, but "he played poorly so he's matchfixing" isn't a strong argument. I wish people would stop pretending that this is the argument. He happened to play like crap in the 5th game that Pinnacle said was not competed on a fair basis. And he happened to lose, just like all other games Pinnacle flagged. Add on that the only pro's who've talked about the game have universally said - "ya, that was a throw" and there's a lot more than this reductionist argument that MKP's defenders keep trying to make. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On April 23 2015 08:37 Doodsmack wrote: No doubt GOM also has an interest in keeping the issue quiet. That seems to be the Korean leagues' strategy right now, even though they're just making it a ticking time bomb. GOM? This was proleague, so SPOTV, right? | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On April 23 2015 09:04 Jarree wrote: You do realize lowering a depot is a complete different situation? It's like saying Naniwa didn't lose on purpose when he a-moved his workers in to Nestea's base in the beginning of the match, because in one of his games before he forgot warpgate. I mean how bad do you have to play, where's the line? Every pro player that has commented on the matter say that line was crossed here. What does that tell you? Not a single pro (to my knowledge) has defended MK's play. Every pro is going to say they would never do those things but I watched pro's rally 4 strait collosi into an opponents army and have them die each time and not notice. I have multiple times watched pros right click there armies into seige tank lines that they can see and lose a big chunk of that army for no discernable reason. To bring the classic one with JD he was missing a massive part of his army and for 10 minutes didnt think "why is my army so tiny? Shouldnt it be bigger then this?" Every pro would probably say they would never make those mistakes but you know what Jaedong was better then all of the pro's who would all swear they would never make that mistake if it werent made by Jaedong but he did so anyone can make any mistake on any day and I am more inclined to believe someone who looked like a walking corpse is more prone to making a boneheaded mistake. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
i am not a fan of MKP's play/playstyle and while i was an active player myself, i really tried to pick apart his decision making and his mechanics. the source of that information was his streaming, his replays, and his commentated VODs. i respect him as a player because his decision making at times is sound and he's able to place himself in a situation where he is at an advantage. in short, he's an (strategically and mechanically) abusive player who does not choke so hard when few units are on the board. that made for lopsided or extremely tense games sometimes, and this was all through his style of play. that being said, i'm never impressed by the way he holds himself at any point in a game. to a starcraft player, their mechanics are key in defining the plays they're capable or comfortable making--or even how successful they are with various builds. you can tell from a FPVOD how their tendencies and nuances are like, or what kind of preferences they have. a simple example of a preference is simple bio or mech as a terran player. it's often far more intricate than that, though. one of the ways a player corrects a mishap or recurring mistake is through repetition and practice. frankly, that's one of the reassuring elements of this game (or RTS in general) that makes it fun as a player; you know that if you put constructive efforts into an idea or a tactic, you can eventually make it work. it's much like going into training as a fighting game player. MKP as a player obviously practices like any other pro in the business. he had a stint where he retired and tried out LoL as more than just a hobby, though that doesn't really say anything about him. he has improved his previous aggressive styles and started incorporating a macro-orientated backdrop to most of his strategies. his over-arching strategy has always been to take risks and watch out for certain timings--whether practiced or not--and now he does this with macro as well. getting to the point now, i think it's a mistake he would make. i'm talking about the one in the game in question. the reasons i have for this are simple: - his basic mechanics are slowed down and simplified. he's not a nimble player at heart. he focuses on timings and small-army management. it forces his positioning to be good and his general prediction and foresight to be correct most of the time. - he often doesn't pay attention to things on the map that he thinks does not concern him, whereas other pros will take a glance to double over efforts any way they can. - it was somewhat of a fresh strategy (albeit, one used by byul before). which is interesting to me because if MKP ever plays that map again in any sort of streamed match, he better fucking scout for it from now till the day he retires again, LOL. - the dude throws games regularly and in awful manner even if he doesn't intend to, and to his credit, he often makes games close and exciting to watch whether you cheering for or against him. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On April 23 2015 09:42 Adreme wrote: Every pro is going to say they would never do those things but I watched pro's rally 4 strait collosi into an opponents army and have them die each time and not notice. I have multiple times watched pros right click there armies into seige tank lines that they can see and lose a big chunk of that army for no discernable reason. To bring the classic one with JD he was missing a massive part of his army and for 10 minutes didnt think "why is my army so tiny? Shouldnt it be bigger then this?" The thing is if you play the game at a decent level you'll understand how these things can happen. Misclicks/brain explosions happen with split-second decision-making. The Jaedong thing was hilarious but I could understand how it happened in the context of the game (got caught up in dealing with constant multi-prong attacks and barely surviving), the ramp was between location hotkeys and hold-positioned drones blocking it is such an unusual situation. Misrallies aren't that easy to notice in action-packed games and I can see how 4 could potentially happen (though it is terrible). However, missing a visible proxied building on the minimap for 75 seconds early game is just not feasible for a conscious progamer who normally has a reaction time of a second or two. In 10+ years of pro-BW there wasn't a case of anything more than a few seconds delay in reaction time. The vast majority of proxy reactions being virtually instant. I've never seen anything close to a mistake like this, even in low level amateur games, in any RTS. It's pretty telling that MKP hasn't explained it and no other progamer can make sense of it either. So either he made an impossible mistake or he scouted a cheese too early, panicked, froze for too long then just continued to pretend he couldn't see it. Even in a game without suspicious betting I'm going with the latter. | ||
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Bannt
United States73 Posts
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
On April 23 2015 09:42 Adreme wrote: Every pro is going to say they would never do those things but I watched pro's rally 4 strait collosi into an opponents army and have them die each time and not notice. I have multiple times watched pros right click there armies into seige tank lines that they can see and lose a big chunk of that army for no discernable reason. To bring the classic one with JD he was missing a massive part of his army and for 10 minutes didnt think "why is my army so tiny? Shouldnt it be bigger then this?" Every pro would probably say they would never make those mistakes but you know what Jaedong was better then all of the pro's who would all swear they would never make that mistake if it werent made by Jaedong but he did so anyone can make any mistake on any day and I am more inclined to believe someone who looked like a walking corpse is more prone to making a boneheaded mistake. No, every pro is NOT going to say that. Stop putting words in to pros' mouths or provide a source. On the other hand, there are tons of links about pros saying MK lost on purpose. So that is a horrible straw man argument, sorry. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On April 23 2015 03:01 coverpunch wrote: Nah, this is what I mean by torturing him. They can't do those things. Going through his personal communications or his bank accounts is a tremendous violation of his constitutionally protected rights against searches without cause, not to mention the ugly personal signals it sends to the captain of their own team. I'm pretty alarmed at how casual and easy you think it is to ask someone for records of their private conversations and financial records or worse, to obtain it without their consent. Put it this way: you could also figure this out pretty quickly if you tied him down to a board with a towel over his face and poured water on it to induce sensations of drowning until he just admitted it. Want the team to do that? water boarding analogy really? as ridiculous as a notion that is. No, you wouldn't necessarily get the truth out of either. That would be just flat out torture for such an accusation. Also checking records are what the police are for. they would look into illegal gambling and the people associated with it if they had good reason to. | ||
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North2
134 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On April 23 2015 09:55 nanaoei wrote: i want to provide my "short" 2c with being a fan and viewer of professional SC2 since release. i am not a fan of MKP's play/playstyle and while i was an active player myself, i really tried to pick apart his decision making and his mechanics. the source of that information was his streaming, his replays, and his commentated VODs. i respect him as a player because his decision making at times is sound and he's able to place himself in a situation where he is at an advantage. in short, he's an (strategically and mechanically) abusive player who does not choke so hard when few units are on the board. that made for lopsided or extremely tense games sometimes, and this was all through his style of play. that being said, i'm never impressed by the way he holds himself at any point in a game. to a starcraft player, their mechanics are key in defining the plays they're capable or comfortable making--or even how successful they are with various builds. you can tell from a FPVOD how their tendencies and nuances are like, or what kind of preferences they have. a simple example of a preference is simple bio or mech as a terran player. it's often far more intricate than that, though. one of the ways a player corrects a mishap or recurring mistake is through repetition and practice. frankly, that's one of the reassuring elements of this game (or RTS in general) that makes it fun as a player; you know that if you put constructive efforts into an idea or a tactic, you can eventually make it work. it's much like going into training as a fighting game player. MKP as a player obviously practices like any other pro in the business. he had a stint where he retired and tried out LoL as more than just a hobby, though that doesn't really say anything about him. he has improved his previous aggressive styles and started incorporating a macro-orientated backdrop to most of his strategies. his over-arching strategy has always been to take risks and watch out for certain timings--whether practiced or not--and now he does this with macro as well. getting to the point now, i think it's a mistake he would make. i'm talking about the one in the game in question. the reasons i have for this are simple: - his basic mechanics are slowed down and simplified. he's not a nimble player at heart. he focuses on timings and small-army management. it forces his positioning to be good and his general prediction and foresight to be correct most of the time. - he often doesn't pay attention to things on the map that he thinks does not concern him, whereas other pros will take a glance to double over efforts any way they can. - it was somewhat of a fresh strategy (albeit, one used by byul before). which is interesting to me because if MKP ever plays that map again in any sort of streamed match, he better fucking scout for it from now till the day he retires again, LOL. - the dude throws games regularly and in awful manner even if he doesn't intend to, and to his credit, he often makes games close and exciting to watch whether you cheering for or against him. You have to realize the severity of MarineKing's mistakes in the game. They are not normal or reasonable. They are extreme to the point of being nearly impossible. And you want to know why? Because he's on one base. You must know that it's easy to sit in one base, make some buildings, and do nothing else. It's like the back of MarineKing's hand. He did not need to think about a "fresh strategy" (late pool no gas no hatch = proxy hatch 99% of the time). He does not need to be nimble or have extremely fast mechanics he's on one fucking base lol. He's on one base, and for one minute of time, he does not check the dot on his minimap that he MUST KNOW is outside of his current vision. He even reacts late to the creep up against his cc LOL. How much more obvious can it get? And you want to know what else? The bets on the game were deliberately manipulated with very large sums of money in order to maximize the profit off MarineKing losing game 1. I don't know how much clearer to make it that the probability of match fixing is extremely high. To me, there's no question. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On April 23 2015 10:43 Jarree wrote: No, every pro is NOT going to say that. Stop putting words in to pros' mouths or provide a source. On the other hand, there are tons of links about pros saying MK lost on purpose. So that is a horrible straw man argument, sorry. Not saying you are wrong, but for the purpose of collecting information, can you provide some of these links? Or in general flesh out a bit on this: + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2015 03:12 Wuster wrote: A new thread summarizing things would be very handy actually. I didn't see a post by Snute, but almost immediately there was a post by Welmu calling MKP out: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/481281-pinnacle-voids-byul-vs-marineking-match?page=8#141 There are vods of Huk / Kane / Desrow / Destiny going over the game in question on Remax and Lycanthrope or something. Unfortunately, I can't find the vods right now, but at least here's Huk talking about how crappy things are in Korea to allow this to keep going on: http://www.twitch.tv/desrowfighting/v/4031346?t=2h36m49s thanks. | ||
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Hot_Ice
139 Posts
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On April 23 2015 08:59 bypLy wrote: i think its time for Helium to create a new thread where all information is structured and gathered How did I get responsible for this? :D But actually I could do that, or at least update this op. A bit busy this week but next week should be fine. If anyone else wants to do it feel free. | ||
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