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On April 23 2015 22:14 Garsecg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 22:05 Penev wrote:On April 23 2015 21:35 pure.Wasted wrote:
There's one very simple fact that MKP's valiant defenders don't seem to grasp.
This isn't about MKP anymore.
For every one idiot who says that MKP should be impeached, disbarred from Congress, thrown in prison and waterboarded, I see a hundred other posters saying simply that KOREAN SC2 IS IN A VERY BAD PLACE. That's what matters. Take a minute away from worrying about what our pitchforks are doing to MKP's career, and consider that when Korean SC2 goes belly-up, because, when match-fixing is finally exposed, it's so huge that it drags EVERYBODY down... MKP's career will end, too. And so will everyone else's. Those are the stakes we're dealing with right now.
I couldn't possibly care less about what happens to MKP right now. If he's innocent, fantastic. If he's guilty, he's just one symptom of a festering infection that is much bigger than him. I personally wouldn't glean much satisfaction from seeing him thrown behind bars or fined $100,000 or otherwise turned into a scapegoat.
For the truth to come to light, KeSPA needs to be pressured into a public investigation. They need to know that the sort of 'compelling evidence' that MVP presented in their defense of MKP will not cut it.
With no ill will to MKP, MVP throwing him under the bus would have been the best possible outcome for the scene, because it would have forced KeSPA's hand.
What we got -- a biased endorsement of MKP that may or may not be meaningless -- not only doesn't help him in the eyes of skeptics, but it means that regardless of his guilt or innocence, match fixing will go on undeterred for the foreseeable future. That's the bigger issue.
If you don't see that -- if you're still preoccupied with making sure that no one is saying that we have "conclusive 100% proof" that MKP is guilty, which we obviously don't -- then you're not seeing the forest for the trees, you're missing the real conversation, and you're completely missing the gravity of the situation in Korea.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anything that's in our power to do other than continue to be annoying about this and not let it get brushed aside. Good post. I wouldn't be surprised btw if MVP's decision to defend MK was done in consultation with KeSPA.. I think I would be more surprised to learn MVP didn't consult KeSPA before releasing their statement. Also wanted to echo what a great post pure.Wasted wrote.
considering how strict KeSPA is and what they have done in the past. I think a lot of people have no idea what they do or have done.
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On April 24 2015 00:10 fruity. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 23:42 Garsecg wrote:
It's a grossly puerile view to pretend that the death of starcraft 2 isn't a possibility.
It isn't assumed that Starcraft 2 will die from this matchfixing scandal, but it is assumed that match fixing will harm Starcraft 2. If you don't believe that last point, I would love to hear why. Your first 2 sentences contradict themselves somewhat. Also, I prefer to live in a world where the positive over the negative is prefered, each to their own.
I live in the world where "reality" is preferred.
My sentences don't contradict each other.
My first sentence says I believe your beliefs are juvenile in that you drastically underestimate the potential damage this scandal could bring.
The first part of my second sentence agrees with you that it is not inevitable the SC2 scene will die. The second part of my second sentence says people generally assume that when the match fixing scandal is fully-revealed, it will damage SC2.
The unknown -- and the reason you believe I am contradicting myself -- is how much damage will come from this scandal. You say you prefer to live in a world where the positive is preferred, in this case, I believe, insinuating that you don't think this will cause the "death of SC2".
I guess in "positive world" Brood War is alive and kicking, and match fixing didn't kill it. But I think what myself and others in this thread are looking at is the opportunity cost incurred from match fixing occurring. Based on what actually happened, BW is not as big as it would have been if match fixing hadn't occurred. Is it dead? I guess that's personal opinion.
And as you say, you're entitled to yours.
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he cant anything you guys accept ... its either "ok i did" or he lied ... its stupid without proof its like witchhunting damn you act like your streight out of the 1600's
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Sometimes i really think all these people repeating "no proof" and "witchhunt" are just trolling.
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On April 24 2015 05:46 maGicc wrote:
Sometimes i really think all these people repeating "no proof" and "witchhunt" are just trolling.
Most of them are just misinformed, which is why i still would greatly appreciate a thread which collects all the information we have objectively in the op, explains how the betting system works AND doesn't allow comments.
But that won't happen 
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On April 24 2015 05:46 maGicc wrote:
Sometimes i really think all these people repeating "no proof" and "witchhunt" are just trolling.
This. Posts like these here
On April 23 2015 09:55 nanaoei wrote:
i want to provide my "short" 2c with being a fan and viewer of professional SC2 since release.
i am not a fan of MKP's play/playstyle and while i was an active player myself, i really tried to pick apart his decision making and his mechanics. the source of that information was his streaming, his replays, and his commentated VODs.
i respect him as a player because his decision making at times is sound and he's able to place himself in a situation where he is at an advantage. in short, he's an (strategically and mechanically) abusive player who does not choke so hard when few units are on the board. that made for lopsided or extremely tense games sometimes, and this was all through his style of play.
that being said, i'm never impressed by the way he holds himself at any point in a game. to a starcraft player, their mechanics are key in defining the plays they're capable or comfortable making--or even how successful they are with various builds. you can tell from a FPVOD how their tendencies and nuances are like, or what kind of preferences they have. a simple example of a preference is simple bio or mech as a terran player. it's often far more intricate than that, though. one of the ways a player corrects a mishap or recurring mistake is through repetition and practice. frankly, that's one of the reassuring elements of this game (or RTS in general) that makes it fun as a player; you know that if you put constructive efforts into an idea or a tactic, you can eventually make it work. it's much like going into training as a fighting game player.
MKP as a player obviously practices like any other pro in the business. he had a stint where he retired and tried out LoL as more than just a hobby, though that doesn't really say anything about him. he has improved his previous aggressive styles and started incorporating a macro-orientated backdrop to most of his strategies. his over-arching strategy has always been to take risks and watch out for certain timings--whether practiced or not--and now he does this with macro as well.
getting to the point now, i think it's a mistake he would make. i'm talking about the one in the game in question.
the reasons i have for this are simple:
- his basic mechanics are slowed down and simplified. he's not a nimble player at heart. he focuses on timings and small-army management. it forces his positioning to be good and his general prediction and foresight to be correct most of the time.
- he often doesn't pay attention to things on the map that he thinks does not concern him, whereas other pros will take a glance to double over efforts any way they can.
- it was somewhat of a fresh strategy (albeit, one used by byul before). which is interesting to me because if MKP ever plays that map again in any sort of streamed match, he better fucking scout for it from now till the day he retires again, LOL.
- the dude throws games regularly and in awful manner even if he doesn't intend to, and to his credit, he often makes games close and exciting to watch whether you cheering for or against him.
make me wanna rip my eyes out. i am not going to explain this whole thing again like i did on page 24, i'll just say that uneducated bronze league people's posts like this are part of the reason this isn't being taken seriously enough by the people in charge. If half of the community thinks it was fine then there is not as much pressure on kespa etc to possibly ruin their reputation right? Educate yourselves before posting, please.
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^ So you have insider information about what kespa and people behind the scenes are doing and if they are "feeling pressured"? Please share!
This thread has been going around in circles for pages and pages now anyway, I doubt posts here really have any power at this point. And (no i haven't counted...but) it seems like the majority of people think he probably did it anyway.
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On April 24 2015 05:46 maGicc wrote:
Sometimes i really think all these people repeating "no proof" and "witchhunt" are just trolling.
As much as I believe he's guilty, you people (well, you in particular :D) have a way of presenting evidence that leave room to discussion, so I don't think people don't hold the right to contest your point.
For one, people are screaming that the red dot on the minimap is obvious. THERE WAS NO RED DOT, DAMMIT. The dot is yellow without allied color, and MarineKing (on his stream at least) doesn't use allied colors. Broadcaster setup is different from player, so "player cam" is no indication of what he uses. Now I'm not saying a progamer can miss the yellow dot, but it sure as hell doesn't jump to your face when you just glance at the minimap for half a sec, it looks the same as any doodad or resource patch or whatever.
The most suspicious in-game stuff isn't missing the spine, or missing the creep (which is essentially the same color as the fog of war...), these I can believe fairly easily knowing MarineKing's tendencies to miss shit on the minimap. No, the weirdest and most telling thing is his reaction to the opening. No gas, late pool, and he keeps his 2 reapers in defense, AND brings back his SCV instead of looking for the hatch? Now that's the most horrible decision I've seen in a while, and if you know MarineKing, you know that it's actually not his style, he's the one who'll lose reapers trying to do some damage rather than keep them conservatively.
And then he just build a 3rd CC against no expand, like, wtf :D. I think his plan was to intentionally get busted with a greedy build, and it's likely that he missed that he inadvertently scouted the spine, which unfortunately for him makes his play all the more suspicious. So I would say he WAS throwing intentionally, but he did miss the spine on the minimap: anybody who's matchfixing and sees that shit on the minimap is at least going to go check up on it (to make it look believable), and then mishandle the defense later on in the game to finally lose (which is actually easy to do considering the amount of Terrans who lose to that).
I'm the rare kind of people who thinks that he did matchfix, BUT that he even botched by missing shit on the minimap how to lose properly and that it made his throw even worse-looking than he intended.
Edit: And don't tell me that it's unlikely. What is unlikely is that he didn't matchfix, but it's very possible that one of his intentional mistakes (to lead to a throw) was actually unintentional.
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Those were intentional mistakes. He was on one base. I'm a diamond player and I find it very easy to make some buildings on one base and do NOTHING else. Do you know how often Korean pros spot stuff on the minimap? Very very often. You might say MKP is worse at watching the minimap than other pros, but is it so much worse that he misses the minimap for over a minute...while on one base? He plays Starcraft his whole life and I'm certain that he could spot any enemy dot on the minimap, especially with one minute's time on one base.
Furthermore, if he had reacted to the proxy spine properly, he instantly becomes very unlikely to lose. He would have been attacking the spine with his first reaper very shortly after the spine started. It's inconceivable to me how he could NOT shut down the proxy hatch in that situation. It may not 100% guarantee him a win, but it would make it a very bad throw by him. If, on the other hand, he could pretend to have not seen the spine, he could just go for a super greedy build and get a build order loss. So MKP may have thought he had no choice but to pretend he didn't see it.
TBH, this topic of MKP's motivation for reacting or not reacting to the spine is probably something that's debatable, which again would make it look legit that there's a back and forth debate. But to me, the one base thing is the key.
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Its sad that MKP didnt say anything about what happened, at least if had said something like I thought the spine was an overlord in range the whole time, I didnt expect an hatch or something. Sure the map is greyed out but the dark red vs bright red is sometimes hard to tell especially with creep surrounding it, it look even more brighter.
But he didnt comment on his perspective.
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On April 24 2015 11:04 j4vz wrote:
Its sad that MKP didnt say anything about what happened, at least if had said something like I thought the spine was an overlord in range the whole time, I didnt expect an hatch or something. Sure the map is greyed out but the dark red vs bright red is sometimes hard to tell especially with creep surrounding it, it look even more brighter.
But he didnt comment on his perspective.
I believe he made some sort of comment on his facebook page in korean
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If I read the one you're talking about it was an angry message, he sounded really pissed and he was attacking people pretty badly. Not really indicative of anything though imo, because if he was tilted from a loss he didn't want might react that way too if people were accusing him of shit.
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On April 23 2015 22:31 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 22:22 Samx wrote:
Is there anything that us as a community can do to pressure the organizations involved that this is unacceptable? I don't think talking about it here have much effect.
Kespa don't seem to care. How about blizzard? Will they take a more serious view on this and pressure Kespa? Well, there's one thing but I'm not sure if we want to go down that road
Which is?
Somehow I think Blizzard is more receptive to the community than Kespa. I'm sure with LotV round the corner and the amount of money Blizzard is throwing into the game with the wcs system, they would be more inclined to take actions to prevent further tarnishing of the integrity of the sport.
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On April 24 2015 11:28 Samx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 22:31 Penev wrote:On April 23 2015 22:22 Samx wrote:
Is there anything that us as a community can do to pressure the organizations involved that this is unacceptable? I don't think talking about it here have much effect.
Kespa don't seem to care. How about blizzard? Will they take a more serious view on this and pressure Kespa? Well, there's one thing but I'm not sure if we want to go down that road Which is? Somehow I think Blizzard is more receptive to the community than Kespa. I'm sure with LotV round the corner and the amount of money Blizzard is throwing into the game with the wcs system, they would be more inclined to take actions to prevent further tarnishing of the integrity of the sport.
Hmm, I'm with Penev on this. Going down THAT path may not be what we want as sc2 fans. What we could do is contact Kespa and threaten to go down that path I guess.... :/
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On April 24 2015 07:37 Bannt wrote:
^ So you have insider information about what kespa and people behind the scenes are doing and if they are "feeling pressured"? Please share!
This thread has been going around in circles for pages and pages now anyway, I doubt posts here really have any power at this point. And (no i haven't counted...but) it seems like the majority of people think he probably did it anyway.
His point was that any reasonably skilled player, and most certainly any professional player, can immediately tell this game was thrown and there is very little room for excuse. Instead of filling the thread with things like the person he quoted it would just be great if people could defer their 'beliefs' to the people who probably understand what they are actually seeing a bit more.
Honestly, the only people running around in circles are those who seem either blatantly confused with what they saw and try to rationalize or just cannot fathom that someone of MKs caliber would throw ;-;
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On April 24 2015 05:46 maGicc wrote:
Sometimes i really think all these people repeating "no proof" and "witchhunt" are just trolling.
your posts aren't any better
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On April 24 2015 15:12 seom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 05:46 maGicc wrote:
Sometimes i really think all these people repeating "no proof" and "witchhunt" are just trolling. your posts aren't any better
I wholeheartedly agree.
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100% proof is pretty difficult without a confession or evidence of communications, which kespa would have to find.The problem is we're unlikely to see anything more blatant than this, so if this isn't taken seriously and investigated by a third party we'll just have to watch throwleague until the sponsors/viewers/scene disappears.
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On April 24 2015 15:24 Scarecrow wrote:
100% proof is pretty difficult without a confession or evidence of communications, which kespa would have to find.The problem is we're unlikely to see anything more blatant than this, so if this isn't taken seriously and investigated by a third party we'll just have to watch throwleague until the sponsors/viewers/scene disappears.
100% proof is physically impossible. Any evidence could have been doctored or written under duress.
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Well it's not impossible with police warrants, but it's impossible without Kespa cooperation. The overwhelming circumstantial evidence says Marineking is at least over 95% likely to be guilty and probably more, and when you add in the other four voids + matchfixing being an open secret in Korea, the chances that at least one of Marineking, San, Soulkey, Innovation or Super matchfixed is at least 99% and probably substantially higher. Whether it can be proven through skypelogs/email/bank accounts/etc depends whether the proper authorities are motivated to investigate or not.
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EPT
