It is about 4 weeks ago since people assumed there was a matchfixing between ByuL and MarineKing. And directly after the game a part of the folk judged kinda fast and submitted that MarineKing did matchfixing. But it is not always the way as it looks like. Yet we took this allegedly incident very seriously since we have never ever accepted cheating and MarineKing is one of our players what makes the allegation not better in any way.
We have never stopped trusting Lee and we could not image that he had tried to cheat, that’s why we asked MKP firstly if all these allegations could be true - and he was clearly in making his position, so he emphasized that he didn't matchfixed. For us it was enough but in this case we felt that it could be insufficient, especially when you have to give an explanation to community. We took charge of the game and tried to understand exactly the circumstance, not only by checking the replay again and again but also by having some serious talks. We also kinda grilled MarineKing several times, that's why he didn't play in Proleague for a while. But at the very end, all evidence gave us the same answer – Lee was not matchfixing.
Surely, it was a questionable game but was it matchfixing? Definitely not! Having a bad game or even a bad period of time is humanly. We won't suspend a player by an accusation, which was finally proved wrong, and destroy his career. And if we take a close view on MarineKing's match history, he hasn't won a few Proleague games recently, so it makes it even more unlikely that he did.
Anyway, to make you understand MKP a little bit better: Lee is/was pressuring hisself a lot, because he wants to win so badly and he puts a lot of efforts and emotion into the game. And it makes it not easier for him if people have a very high expectation, which he wants to answer. In addition as team captain you have to carry an extra burden. Probably that’s the main reason why he didn’t perform as good lately. It is not always easy to be professional which concerns not only eSports and sometimes you need a little bit time and an helping hand to get up again.
For the upcoming season we decided that MKP will exchange the role as team captain with YongHwa, so MarineKing can focus more on his own play again. We keep believing in MarineKing, so we hope that you have not given him up as well. And hopfully he will be back with full strength for the next Proleague round.”
Nerves, no fixing. I though do feel like the status quo remains. Anyways, thanks for that statement to MVP. At least one organization seems to feel the need of saying something.
On April 21 2015 07:14 TheDwf wrote: I have no idea what kind of “magic” people were expecting about that statement, but clearly they won't get it.
"Yes he fixed" would've confirmed something, "He didn't fix" doesn't confirm anything sadly. As I said already in the original thread, the damage is done.
On April 21 2015 07:15 boxerfred wrote: Nerves, no fixing. I though do feel like the status quo remains. Anyways, thanks for that statement to MVP. At least one organization seems to feel the need of saying something.
On April 21 2015 07:14 TheDwf wrote: I have no idea what kind of “magic” people were expecting about that statement, but clearly they won't get it.
"Yes he fixed" would've confirmed something, "He didn't fix" doesn't confirm anything sadly. As I said already in the original thread, the damage is done.
Why would MVP say their player fixed? Are you high lol
Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
This whole block of text can litterally be tl;dr'd to:
MK would never cheat. We asked him if he cheated. He said no. We have the replay. I don't believe him to have cheated. Take our word. -Yours truly a responsible, airplane manager Jeef (P.s. it only makes sense he didn't cheat. Haha! Got you there!)
Sorry, get an outside collaborator or this just looks like a joke, especially given how long it took to release and the 'content' it contains.
On April 21 2015 07:15 boxerfred wrote: Nerves, no fixing. I though do feel like the status quo remains. Anyways, thanks for that statement to MVP. At least one organization seems to feel the need of saying something.
On April 21 2015 07:14 TheDwf wrote: I have no idea what kind of “magic” people were expecting about that statement, but clearly they won't get it.
"Yes he fixed" would've confirmed something, "He didn't fix" doesn't confirm anything sadly. As I said already in the original thread, the damage is done.
Why would MVP say their player fixed? Are you high lol
If they found evidence of it then they would for the sake of their own reputation. Pretty standard release doesn't tell us much. We examined the game and grilled Marineking and didn't find anything and we're choosing to take our players word for it. I think if someone were to hire an outside investigation it would have to be kespa since I don't think any team would do it for themselves. good that they released it though
I don't know what anyone was expecting here but this is very straightforward. MarineKing denies he match-fixed and his team treats him with the presumption of honesty, simply assuming that he is trustworthy. To their credit, they do say they went over the replay with him and it seems they asked him several times. But if he denies it three times like Peter denied Christ after the Last Supper, then they have to conclude he didn't do it. It seems crazy and dumb to assume MVP would remain skeptical and treat their own member like a cheater or ruin his mindset and career because "the community" doesn't believe him.
At least there is a statement. It doesn't help at all to tell whether MK was matchfixing, but a response is better than total silence. I'm only afraid that it is the last time we see any official stance on that matter.
It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
We took charge of the game and tried to understand exactly the circumstance, not only by checking the replay again and again but also by having some serious talks.
Ok.. so why don't you share those circumstances. The statement would be at least a bit more believable if it had answers to questions like "why did you not use the reapers" "why did you go 3cc against no natural" "why did you stare you CC that was building scvs for 5 minutes". I mean, give some explanations not just "he didn't do it".
On April 21 2015 07:34 boxerfred wrote: They should've released the replay.
100% agree with that. It would be disastrous if it were proven true, but that's better than if more strong evidence arose and they stubbornly sat on the replay in denial.
Not quite convinced. No mention of betting sites although it's probably the most incriminating element. No one cares that MarineKing plays awfully, everyone has horrible games, it's not enough to brand a player the Worst Stuff of eSports. But when he plays awfully AND people are obviously betting unreasonable amounts on him to lose, that's what's shady.
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tears tins on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
When all the evidence points to MKP being guilty here, you better come up with something better than "he said he didn't do it" before you conclude that he definitely didn't matchfix.
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tears tins on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
When all the evidence points to MKP being guilty here, you better come up with something better than "he said he didn't do it" before you conclude that he definitely didn't matchfix.
He played like utter SHIT yes, but that is not in any way 'evidence'.
Edit - This 'trial by pitchforks' shit needs to stop. Everyone being judge, jury and executioner based on their own opinions rather than hard evidence is bullshit.
release the replay to share some insight to the fans too, will you? i really like mkp but i think he still matchfixed tbh, just the fact that he said he didnt oh ok youre innocent then thanks
They could just as well have said nothing. Completely empty statement. It's only purpose is to be able to say they've released one to make people shut up about it. No mention of the bet voiding is pretty disappointing, because the suspicions weren't just based on his bad play, but his bad play combined with voiding the bet on the match. You don't have to prove it has nothing to do with mkp, just méntion it; take it seriously.
Everyone who knows a little bit of Marineking can absolutely confirm, that he is one of the very last players, that will ever fix a match in any professional sport/esport for monetary gain. I for myself would guarantee that for now and for the future. And since this is all about him, I don´t get what´s wrong with you. Marineking allways has been an extremely dedicated and fair compender in BW and SC2. He is an extremely passionate hard worker and he was never the guy that cared about the big bucks, NEVER! I find this whole discussion absolutely disrespectful. You should all be ashamed!
Yeah, pretty much closes the case here. People are talking about preconceived notions but if people still believe MK matchfixed after this then they're the ones who can't accept that their point of view was incorrect. They already made up their minds and nothing MVP said will change their minds.
"Release the replay so we can make our own individual claims about how guilty he totally is because a player could never have a bad game." I'll trust the Koreans on this one.
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tears tins on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
When all the evidence points to MKP being guilty here, you better come up with something better than "he said he didn't do it" before you conclude that he definitely didn't matchfix.
He played like utter SHIT yes, but that is not in any way 'evidence'.
And he's far from the only player to pull out a crap performance, even in recent times granted he's had other dumb losses in his past like nuking his own army... good times though.
I think that you have the right to doubt MK's word on whether or not he matchfixed, but I'm sure MVP did take a good hard look at the replay at least and didn't see anything super fishy. I would guess they did check if he saw the spine and the creep and all that, so it's no use asking for the replay imo. That's why this statement is not completely void of content.
UNLESS you don't trust MVP either and think they're either covering matchfixing or actively participating in it. In this case, well, they could have said anything really, you wouldn't have believed it either :D
On April 21 2015 07:50 TeeTS wrote: Everyone who knows a little bit of Marineking can absolutely confirm, that he is one of the very last players, that will ever fix a match in any professional sport/esport for monetary gain. I for myself would guarantee that for now and for the future. And since this is all about him, I don´t get what´s wrong with you. Marineking allways has been an extremely dedicated and fair compender in BW and SC2. He is an extremely passionate hard worker and he was never the guy that cared about the big bucks, NEVER! I find this whole discussion absolutely disrespectful. You should all be ashamed!
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tears tins on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
When all the evidence points to MKP being guilty here, you better come up with something better than "he said he didn't do it" before you conclude that he definitely didn't matchfix.
He played like utter SHIT yes, but that is not in any way 'evidence'.
What is evidence? It is quite likely that MK took part in matchfixing. What we can discuss is how much likely that is. Probability is very important when you discuss matters which can't have clear answers. It's like how modern physics tells that a stone can start flying on its own, but it is highly unlikely, that's why you don't see stones flying.
The facts you would consider evidence won't come up without proper investigation and it doesn't seem like anyone is doing that.
So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
On April 21 2015 07:58 ZenithM wrote: UNLESS you don't trust MVP either and think they're either covering matchfixing or actively participating in it. In this case, well, they could have said anything really, you wouldn't have believed it either :D
Not at all. Like I wrote on the first page:
The statement would be at least a bit more believable if it had answers to questions like "why did you not use the reapers" "why did you go 3cc against no natural" "why did you stare you CC that was building scvs for 5 minutes".
They asked MK about it, so why can't they just share the answers? I'll be happy to listen even if I have my doubts at this moment. Saying "he didn't do it", means absolutely nothing.
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
Ya, this is about all MVP could ever say. This is just gonna stalemate again like it has before. Nothing MVP can do to convince people MK didn't fix, but that's only due to the fact that it's fairly blatant he did and I can fully understand people's huge disappointment in that this basically amounts to nothing out of them.
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
Really TB?
The statement would be at least a bit more believable if it had answers to questions like "why did you not use the reapers" "why did you go 3cc against no natural" "why did you stare you CC that was building scvs for 5 minutes".
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
Omfg, I actually find myself agreeing with TB on something.
On April 21 2015 07:34 boxerfred wrote: They should've released the replay.
100% agree with that. It would be disastrous if it were proven true, but that's better than if more strong evidence arose and they stubbornly sat on the replay in denial.
The replay still wouldn't prove anything - especially in a player as famous for losing to things he should damn well have known were coming as he is for holding against a flood of banelings with two marines and a prayer.
The betting line may be algorithmically suspicious, causing it to be cancelled. But all of the reasoning and thought behind using it as proof of rigged betting rests on humans being rational. And if you recall MKP's big hot pink glasses, you can clearly see that people do not behave rationally. (In eSports even less so.)
Anyways, good to see them say something about it, even if it won't convince anyone of anything and most everyone already have their opinion. The only thing it could prove is that yes, it happened, which isn't what they say. There is no way of providing any kind of proof that no, it didn't happen.Unless we can find a telepath with integrity or a 100% accurate lie detector.
On April 21 2015 07:58 ZenithM wrote: UNLESS you don't trust MVP either and think they're either covering matchfixing or actively participating in it. In this case, well, they could have said anything really, you wouldn't have believed it either :D
The statement would be at least a bit more believable if it had answers to questions like "why did you not use the reapers" "why did you go 3cc against no natural" "why did you stare you CC that was building scvs for 5 minutes".
They asked MK about it, so why can't they just share the answers? I'll be happy to listen even if I have my doubts at this moment. Saying "he didn't do it", means absolutely nothing.
I'm not sure what is the point of asking a progamer about every single mistake and bad decision he likely made for no reason. Especially if you've watched MarineKing a bit, even his wins are sometimes not rational. Show me some replays where you yourself lost, I'm sure you won't have answers for why you made half your bad moves. Progamers are no different. Sometimes it's just "I felt like this could work, well, it didn't ". Only in the tiny world of the TL Strategy Staff team are people perfect players.
On April 21 2015 07:19 Dodgin wrote: It's nice that we got a statement but frankly I'm not convinced.
Same, a bit too much coincidences including the suspicious line movements MVP (and some naysayers) seem to forget about. That said, if MVP did what they've released in this statement than they probably did all they could do.
On April 21 2015 07:58 ZenithM wrote: UNLESS you don't trust MVP either and think they're either covering matchfixing or actively participating in it. In this case, well, they could have said anything really, you wouldn't have believed it either :D
Not at all. Like I wrote on the first page:
The statement would be at least a bit more believable if it had answers to questions like "why did you not use the reapers" "why did you go 3cc against no natural" "why did you stare you CC that was building scvs for 5 minutes".
They asked MK about it, so why can't they just share the answers? I'll be happy to listen even if I have my doubts at this moment. Saying "he didn't do it", means absolutely nothing.
I'm not sure what is the point of asking a progamer about every single mistake and bad decision he likely made for no reason. Especially if you've watched MarineKing a bit, even his wins are sometimes not rational.
Sure. However, this time every progamer (that I've seen mention it) who had the balls to talk about it publicly said those mistakes are beyond - or close to - reasonable doubt. None of those decisions make any sense. It's like Naniwa probe a-move rush against Nestea, not just at the same level. They asked Naniwa why he did it, he didn't care about the match. Boom answered.
Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
I expected MVP to at least publish the replay. I want to see for myself what was in his vision.
This was matchfixing as blantly as it gets and it was not the only case. I am not saying judge him on the evidence we have at the moment because it obviously wouldn't be enough in court. It's enough to start a investigation however. Get through his bank account, check money coming in etc.
I wonder how people can think that marineking is innocent. How can betting odds like this happen? I understand that not everyone understands the math behind it, but if you don't, you should listen to the experts. Odds like that don't just happen on accident. There was no Nigerian prince that bet 100k Dollar on marinking losing under ridicuouls probabilities. There is simply no other explenation than that someone fixed that game. And in this case it's really not looking good for marinking.
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
The statement would be at least a bit more believable if it had answers to questions like "why did you not use the reapers" "why did you go 3cc against no natural" "why did you stare you CC that was building scvs for 5 minutes".
None of what you just said answered my point. MVP cannot prove a negative, the burden of proof is on the accuser. We don't flip around the foundation of justice just because people on a forum got mad about something.
I expected MVP to at least publish the replay.
Which KeSPA and SPOTV does not allow them to do, so that's never going to happen.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
It's a better-informed opinion than anything anyone else on this forum can offer by a factor of several thousand.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
So what would be proof enough for you that you say he is matchfixing?
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
It's a better-informed opinion than anything anyone else on this forum can offer by a factor of several thousand.
I'll take the opinions of high level players that spoke out about the mistakes mkp made being indicative of match fixing, and the opinions of rekrul on match fixing being rampant in korea sc2. I respect TB and his opinion but it doesn't mean he's the most qualified to speak on this matter.
There is a reason why out of all the voided games, this one has garnered by far the most attention. It was inexplicable, it was blatant. There is simply no other rational explanation. Every pro I have heard comment on the issue agrees. This was not just playing badly, nothing about that game start to finish makes any sense whatsoever. Combined with the betting activity, which even alone looks suspicious as shit and should not be underplayed, makes this is by far the most solid example we have. Everyone knows that match fixing is happening in the Korean scene, if even this showing can get away with it. What evidence short of a straight up confession would people accept?
People are being way too cavalier about this. If the rot sets in too deep then Korean SC2 is finished. It may already be too late. Everyone turning a blind eye based on the smallest sliver of possibility that he may be innocent, it isn't rational.
On April 21 2015 08:08 ZenithM wrote: Only in the tiny world of the TL Strategy Staff team are people perfect players.
I think this sums it up. Even if he saw it on the minimap, he could've thought it was an overlord.
There are some high level football games that in my opinion clearly were fixed, like those euro league finals some years ago where Bayern lost to Zenit out of nowhere and a russian mafia boss' phone was wiretapped where that guy said he gave Bayern more than 50 million euro for losing. I think that's why Hoeness went to jail so eagerly, covering the bribe money from that suspicious bank account, of which he told he "speculated on the stock market", haha. But I can't prove it, so I can't run around and tell people Bayern is corrupt. I have to believe the official story, and tell mine to people while I'm drunk.
To cut it short, the presumption of innocence is still applying to MKP as long as you don't bring any proof.
On April 21 2015 07:58 ZenithM wrote: UNLESS you don't trust MVP either and think they're either covering matchfixing or actively participating in it. In this case, well, they could have said anything really, you wouldn't have believed it either :D
Not at all. Like I wrote on the first page:
The statement would be at least a bit more believable if it had answers to questions like "why did you not use the reapers" "why did you go 3cc against no natural" "why did you stare you CC that was building scvs for 5 minutes".
They asked MK about it, so why can't they just share the answers? I'll be happy to listen even if I have my doubts at this moment. Saying "he didn't do it", means absolutely nothing.
I'm not sure what is the point of asking a progamer about every single mistake and bad decision he likely made for no reason. Especially if you've watched MarineKing a bit, even his wins are sometimes not rational. Show me some replays where you yourself lost, I'm sure you won't have answers for why you made half your bad moves. Progamers are no different. Sometimes it's just "I felt like this could work, well, it didn't ". Only in the tiny world of the TL Strategy Staff team are people perfect players.
While that's true, there were several very suspicious moments and they gloss the entire thing over with basically: "MKP denied it, we asked again and he kept denying it."
I didn't really expect much from this statement, but when they delay giving it out for literally weeks, I expected something more than "we trust MKP, but we only pried because we knew others wouldn't be satisfied with MKP's word".
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. 1) We know bet manipulation is going on in Korea (thanks to your own tournament coming out against the suspicious sponsors) 2) The suspicious line movement on pinnacle 3) The bizarre events that unfolded during the game
The body that needs to say something on the matter is KeSPA but of course they won't even if there were matchfixing occurring. Exposing it arguably kills off the scene by scaring off sponsors and possibly has deeper ramifications across all esports. But hey, maybe it will take the Korean police to get involved like they did last time.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
Is there no moderation penalty for people who go around making matchfix jokes and accusations? Nothing good comes out of it and does more to damage the community experience than other variants of shitposting.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Great stuff from MVP. This is the best comment they could give and they did. Mad props for them taking this really seriously.
Hope that MK gets his shit together and just becomes a boring (in out of games terms), legitely good, charismatic player again and can repay MVP for their trust with wins.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
Is there no moderation penalty for people who go around making matchfix jokes and accusations? Nothing good comes out of it and does more to damage the community experience than other variants of shitposting.
There probably should be moderation, but when most of the moderating staff, like most of the community, is convinced that MK is indeed a matchfixer, it's easy for the mods to pass on these comments, understandably.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
As much as I believe there was indeed matchfixing going on, I can't believe some posters here are pitying the betters haha. "Oh my god, poor better, he bet thousands of dollars on young nerds playing video games, and lost it all, poor thing :'(".
Bottom line viewers have a decision to make. Pulling your viewership based on your best interpretation of the matter hurts the players who are playing the game honestly and need your support. So you are either hurting the scene in order to make a point hopefully for the long term good or supporting it with faith that you aren't being betrayed. It is a tough moral judgement.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
But TL forums is no justice system - we don't have the means to investigate the matter nor the power to ban MK from tournaments. I see a suspicious situation and feel concerned about legitimacy of competition in SC2. The statement from MVP is basically "guys, we asked MKP, he told us nothing was wrong". It would be dissatisfying if one could expect anything else from the statement from MK's team. They won't say anything else because they also don't have the means to investigate the issue. They could stop fielding MK in case they believed he could fix matches in the future, but it doesn't seem the case. They still, however, moved him from captain position for whatever reasons.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. 1) We know bet manipulation is going on in Korea (thanks to your own tournament coming out against the suspicious sponsors) 2) The suspicious line movement on pinnacle 3) The bizarre events that unfolded during the game
The body that needs to say something on the matter is KeSPA but of course they won't even if there were matchfixing occurring. Exposing it arguably kills off the scene by scaring off sponsors and possibly has deeper ramifications across all esports. But hey, maybe it will take the Korean police to get involved like they did last time.
agreed w/ plexa and not so much with tb. yes the burden of proof is on us but if the statement had specifically said 'we watched the replay and at no point did his camera see the spine crawlers' this statement would have assuaged at least some of the doubt - i know it would have helped for me. and while that still wouldnt have been proof of guilt, it would have helped a ton for public perception...which surely counts for something since they released a statement in the first place.
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
They can't, yet they tried. This is a strange PR move. So yeah, it is compelling to tell them in a more obnoxious way what you formulated a lot more british, they can't and have no means to do anything to restore Marineking's reputation.
Actually, people go on the combination of suspicious betting action, which indicates someone knew how this game would end before it was played, aswell as a Korean Pro not seeing something on his minimap for minutes while nothing else is happening.
What would convince me? Well, I don't know how much pinnacle profites, allowing people to rig there system, appearantly they don't want that to happen. I don't know how legal that betting in korea is in the first place, if it is though, together with the police, they could start investigating the people that rigged the betting line in the first place. Only then we will know who will go down with them and where the money went.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. 1) We know bet manipulation is going on in Korea (thanks to your own tournament coming out against the suspicious sponsors) 2) The suspicious line movement on pinnacle 3) The bizarre events that unfolded during the game
The body that needs to say something on the matter is KeSPA but of course they won't even if there were matchfixing occurring. Exposing it arguably kills off the scene by scaring off sponsors and possibly has deeper ramifications across all esports. But hey, maybe it will take the Korean police to get involved like they did last time.
This part of the debacle I have some issue with - the actions of third parties that may have had no actual influence on the game being presented as evidence. The line movement was suspicious, I would agree. But was it because "Hey, the fix is IN!" (in which case, generally, the people seeking to profit from the fix would not bet in a manner guaranteed, by experience, to KNOW Pinnacle is aware of and fully capable of voiding all of their bets, making fixing the match a complete waste of time and money) or was it because "Hey, MKP looks like someone hit him in the parking lot with a 2x4, hurry up and bet against him" phone calls or was it because of irrational betting patterns by people that are betting, not logically and using statistics, but people that are betting on their favorite player without any regard and high hopes?
The gambling industry lives on high hopes. High hopes build the hotels and casinos in a desert. Professional gamblers are not the ones that are supporting the gambling industry, legal or illegal.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
? That doesn't mean anything, we're talking different people here. Anyway, TB doesn't say MK did or didn't match fix, just that there is no definite proof and MVP can't be expected to do/ say much more than they did.
I personally think that the line movements in particular, are pretty incriminating evidence. I suspect that people disagreeing with this opinion did not properly investigate what these line movements actually mean in reality.
On April 21 2015 08:08 ZenithM wrote: Only in the tiny world of the TL Strategy Staff team are people perfect players.
I think this sums it up. Even if he saw it on the minimap, he could've thought it was an overlord.
There are some high level football games that in my opinion clearly were fixed, like those euro league finals some years ago where Bayern lost to Zenit out of nowhere and a russian mafia boss' phone was wiretapped where that guy said he gave Bayern more than 50 million euro for losing. I think that's why Hoeness went to jail so eagerly, covering the bribe money from that suspicious bank account, of which he told he "speculated on the stock market", haha. But I can't prove it, so I can't run around and tell people Bayern is corrupt. I have to believe the official story, and tell mine to people while I'm drunk.
To cut it short, the presumtion of innocence is still applying to MKP as long as you don't bring any proof.
I would just point out that the presumption of innocence only applies with regards to the government in criminal cases, where someone's freedom is at stake.
This is more the presumption of honesty, like how most governments allow people to self-report their income and expenses to determine their taxes or like science where we simply take researchers at their word that they collected the data honestly.
MarineKing says he didn't do it. How much more can anyone expect out of him? The answer to all the apparent offers around here for armchair coaching is "no, thanks".
I think this dents his credibility, but this only becomes a problem worthy of the kind of scrutiny others are asking for if he's involved in more suspicious games. He played another game and it was apparently clean, so whatevs.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
MVP finding MarineKing innocents without very strong arguments = Useless (which was what MVP did) MVP finding Marineking guilty = Proof. MVP finding Marineking innocent with strong arguments = Useful, but not conclusive due to MVP not being a neutral 3rd party evaluator.
at no point did his camera see the spine crawlers' this statement would have assuaged at least some of the doubt - i know it would have helped for me. and while that still wouldnt have been proof of guilt
I assume you mean the creep spread here? Because the Spine was on his minimap as showed by the observor and he also looked at the minimap (as can be seen by his eye movement).
What I don't get is why can't TL writers or anyone really, stand up for these players being accused. I think it's absolutely fucked up NO ONE in the scene believes these guys. I can understand why certain people in the scene can't take a stand but no one is saying anything to the rest of the fucktards about how they shouldn't jump to conclusions and not to make such a big deal over this when there is such an absence of information that will be locked away because KESPA and whatever other reasons.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
What people want is a large-scaled investigation from Kespa.
We took charge of the game and tried to understand exactly the circumstance, not only by checking the replay again and again but also by having some serious talks.
Ok.. so why don't you share those circumstances. The statement would be at least a bit more believable if it had answers to questions like "why did you not use the reapers" "why did you go 3cc against no natural" "why did you stare you CC that was building scvs for 5 minutes". I mean, give some explanations not just "he didn't do it".
edit: imo this "statement" is completely useless.
I can answer this. Because he's MarineKing. The 3 CC isn't surprising from MK even if he didn't spot zerg natural. The cancel was what was suspisious imo. The cancel said he was surprised by it which means he missed it on his minimap which is uncharacteristic from a player with MK's mechanics. Mechanics were never his problems.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. 1) We know bet manipulation is going on in Korea (thanks to your own tournament coming out against the suspicious sponsors) 2) The suspicious line movement on pinnacle 3) The bizarre events that unfolded during the game
The body that needs to say something on the matter is KeSPA but of course they won't even if there were matchfixing occurring. Exposing it arguably kills off the scene by scaring off sponsors and possibly has deeper ramifications across all esports. But hey, maybe it will take the Korean police to get involved like they did last time.
This part of the debacle I have some issue with - the actions of third parties that may have had no actual influence on the game being presented as evidence. The line movement was suspicious, I would agree. But was it because "Hey, the fix is IN!" (in which case, generally, the people seeking to profit from the fix would not bet in a manner guaranteed, by experience, to KNOW Pinnacle is aware of and fully capable of voiding all of their bets, making fixing the match a complete waste of time and money) or was it because "Hey, MKP looks like someone hit him in the parking lot with a 2x4, hurry up and bet against him" phone calls or was it because of irrational betting patterns by people that are betting, not logically and using statistics, but people that are betting on their favorite player without any regard and high hopes?
The gambling industry lives on high hopes. High hopes build the hotels and casinos in a desert. Professional gamblers are not the ones that are supporting the gambling industry, legal or illegal.
No these guys don't need to place bets to make money off the situation. Knowing that the result is fixed and then on selling that information is one way they can profit without putting themselves on the front line. When the line movement is this great it suggests that the information was sold to too many people which fucks up the supposedly discrete fixing because it moves the line too greatly.
EDIT: To address the rest of your post. Given that we know that there is bet manipulation going on, the line movement is definitely suspicious. Without prior knowledge that this kind of activity is taking place some of your other scenarios are a little more plausible.
On April 21 2015 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: And if we take a close view on MarineKing's match history, he hasn't won a few Proleague games recently, so it makes it even more unlikely that he did.
Ya.... sure.....
The lack of a serious investigation is very troublesome. Honestly, it degrades the whole institution and I'm more inclined to believe that match fixing is widespread.
We took charge of the game and tried to understand exactly the circumstance, not only by checking the replay again and again but also by having some serious talks.
Ok.. so why don't you share those circumstances. The statement would be at least a bit more believable if it had answers to questions like "why did you not use the reapers" "why did you go 3cc against no natural" "why did you stare you CC that was building scvs for 5 minutes". I mean, give some explanations not just "he didn't do it".
edit: imo this "statement" is completely useless.
I can answer this. Because he's MarineKing. The 3 CC isn't surprising from MK even if he didn't spot zerg natural. The cancel was what was suspisious imo. The cancel said he was surprised by it which means he missed it on his minimap which is uncharacteristic from a player with MK's mechanics. Mechanics were never his problems.
I'd like to hear his answers, not yours. I've never seen anyone build 2 reapers and sit in their own base against (proxy)hatch first, when there is 0 danger of speedlings. Let alone marineking? If he has the answers, I'll be glad to hear, did he missread the z opening? Didn't see there was no natural? Anything.
It's like he has the answers, but he isn't telling because "burden of proof is on us". Makes zero sense.
On April 21 2015 08:08 ZenithM wrote: Only in the tiny world of the TL Strategy Staff team are people perfect players.
I think this sums it up. Even if he saw it on the minimap, he could've thought it was an overlord.
There are some high level football games that in my opinion clearly were fixed, like those euro league finals some years ago where Bayern lost to Zenit out of nowhere and a russian mafia boss' phone was wiretapped where that guy said he gave Bayern more than 50 million euro for losing. I think that's why Hoeness went to jail so eagerly, covering the bribe money from that suspicious bank account, of which he told he "speculated on the stock market", haha. But I can't prove it, so I can't run around and tell people Bayern is corrupt. I have to believe the official story, and tell mine to people while I'm drunk.
To cut it short, the presumtion of innocence is still applying to MKP as long as you don't bring any proof.
I would just point out that the presumption of innocence only applies with regards to the government in criminal cases, where someone's freedom is at stake.
This is more the presumption of honesty, like how most governments allow people to self-report their income and expenses to determine their taxes or like science where we simply take researchers at their word that they collected the data honestly.
MarineKing says he didn't do it. How much more can anyone expect out of him? The answer to all the apparent offers around here for armchair coaching is "no, thanks".
I think this dents his credibility, but this only becomes a problem worthy of the kind of scrutiny others are asking for if he's involved in more suspicious games. He played another game and it was apparently clean, so whatevs.
Well, fixing matches is a crime where I come from. This guy went to jail for it. I don't know how the honorable United States handle these cases, but I think they'll do it similarly.
I repeat, as long as no one can prove it, there is no use in accusing someone.
To me all of you are VERY suspicious. I think TL users are killing puppies and sell the bodies to mad scientists. I have no proof, but from what you all write, it is totally clear. I'm an expert, I saw a puppy once. Prove me the opposite, or I'll shitstorm over you all and destroy your reputation.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
I guess this is more or less what we would expect, fixed game or not.
The one thing I find noteworthy is how they formulate things in terms of "we asked MKP, and he said he wasnt fixing", more than "we side with MKP and guarantee you that he was not fixing". I feel they are not really taking MKPs back, more reporting on an investigation, as if they don't want to be in too much trouble if it later turns out that the game was indeed fixed.
But maybe I read too much into it, with the different culture, translation, confirmation bias, etc.
I guess the police needs to get involved for actual hard proof, tracking down the money, chat-logs, witnesses, etc. But not sure why korean police would bother with something like this.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. 1) We know bet manipulation is going on in Korea (thanks to your own tournament coming out against the suspicious sponsors) 2) The suspicious line movement on pinnacle 3) The bizarre events that unfolded during the game
The body that needs to say something on the matter is KeSPA but of course they won't even if there were matchfixing occurring. Exposing it arguably kills off the scene by scaring off sponsors and possibly has deeper ramifications across all esports. But hey, maybe it will take the Korean police to get involved like they did last time.
This part of the debacle I have some issue with - the actions of third parties that may have had no actual influence on the game being presented as evidence. The line movement was suspicious, I would agree. But was it because "Hey, the fix is IN!" (in which case, generally, the people seeking to profit from the fix would not bet in a manner guaranteed, by experience, to KNOW Pinnacle is aware of and fully capable of voiding all of their bets, making fixing the match a complete waste of time and money) or was it because "Hey, MKP looks like someone hit him in the parking lot with a 2x4, hurry up and bet against him" phone calls or was it because of irrational betting patterns by people that are betting, not logically and using statistics, but people that are betting on their favorite player without any regard and high hopes?
The gambling industry lives on high hopes. High hopes build the hotels and casinos in a desert. Professional gamblers are not the ones that are supporting the gambling industry, legal or illegal.
No these guys don't need to place bets to make money off the situation. Knowing that the result is fixed and then on selling that information is one way they can profit without putting themselves on the front line. When the line movement is this great it suggests that the information was sold to too many people which fucks up the supposedly discrete fixing because it moves the line too greatly.
EDIT: To address the rest of your post. Given that we know that there is bet manipulation going on, the line movement is definitely suspicious. Without prior knowledge that this kind of activity is taking place some of your other scenarios are a little more plausible.
To back up the edit, the fact that there's a lot of smoke is something people are either forgetting or glossing over.
There have been multiple posts now by different users(who the admin's vouch as trustworthy individuals) now that say match-fixing is an open-secret among SC2 programers.
So it's not as if we're being irrationally suspicious about MKP.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
That's a very good point; I didn't think of it. Thank you. There are people in my family who lost a ton of money due to gambling addiction.
On April 21 2015 08:47 Cascade wrote: I guess this is more or less what we would expect, fixed game or not.
The one thing I find noteworthy is how they formulate things in terms of "we asked MKP, and he said he wasnt fixing", more than "we side with MKP and guarantee you that he was not fixing". I feel they are not really taking MKPs back, more reporting on an investigation, as if they don't want to be in too much trouble if it later turns out that the game was indeed fixed.
But maybe I read too much into it, with the different culture, translation, confirmation bias, etc.
I guess the police needs to get involved for actual hard proof, tracking down the money, chat-logs, witnesses, etc. But not sure why korean police would bother with something like this.
"Article 246 of the Criminal Act punishes a person who gambles or bets for the purpose of gaining property by a fine of not more than five million won or a minor fine."
Possibly that. If the people doing the betting are Korean.
is there an alternate explanation for the betting line behaviour... because without that I think it's believable that MKP could have just not seen stuff. more than any other player at the highest level he is known for his losses that were a result of not scouting things.
On April 21 2015 08:47 Cascade wrote: I guess this is more or less what we would expect, fixed game or not.
The one thing I find noteworthy is how they formulate things in terms of "we asked MKP, and he said he wasnt fixing", more than "we side with MKP and guarantee you that he was not fixing". I feel they are not really taking MKPs back, more reporting on an investigation, as if they don't want to be in too much trouble if it later turns out that the game was indeed fixed.
But maybe I read too much into it, with the different culture, translation, confirmation bias, etc.
I guess the police needs to get involved for actual hard proof, tracking down the money, chat-logs, witnesses, etc. But not sure why korean police would bother with something like this.
"Article 246 of the Criminal Act punishes a person who gambles or bets for the purpose of gaining property by a fine of not more than five million won or a minor fine."
Possibly that. If the people doing the betting are Korean.
OK, yes, I didn't mean that it wasn't illegal. I just imagined that the Korean police would assign this as very low priority. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. 1) We know bet manipulation is going on in Korea (thanks to your own tournament coming out against the suspicious sponsors) 2) The suspicious line movement on pinnacle 3) The bizarre events that unfolded during the game
The body that needs to say something on the matter is KeSPA but of course they won't even if there were matchfixing occurring. Exposing it arguably kills off the scene by scaring off sponsors and possibly has deeper ramifications across all esports. But hey, maybe it will take the Korean police to get involved like they did last time.
This part of the debacle I have some issue with - the actions of third parties that may have had no actual influence on the game being presented as evidence. The line movement was suspicious, I would agree. But was it because "Hey, the fix is IN!" (in which case, generally, the people seeking to profit from the fix would not bet in a manner guaranteed, by experience, to KNOW Pinnacle is aware of and fully capable of voiding all of their bets, making fixing the match a complete waste of time and money) or was it because "Hey, MKP looks like someone hit him in the parking lot with a 2x4, hurry up and bet against him" phone calls or was it because of irrational betting patterns by people that are betting, not logically and using statistics, but people that are betting on their favorite player without any regard and high hopes?
The gambling industry lives on high hopes. High hopes build the hotels and casinos in a desert. Professional gamblers are not the ones that are supporting the gambling industry, legal or illegal.
No these guys don't need to place bets to make money off the situation. Knowing that the result is fixed and then on selling that information is one way they can profit without putting themselves on the front line. When the line movement is this great it suggests that the information was sold to too many people which fucks up the supposedly discrete fixing because it moves the line too greatly.
EDIT: To address the rest of your post. Given that we know that there is bet manipulation going on, the line movement is definitely suspicious. Without prior knowledge that this kind of activity is taking place some of your other scenarios are a little more plausible.
This post is spot on. Line movements alone don't implicate MK, they just tell you that someone was sure he is going to lose. He/they might have been sold missinformation. But if you do the calculations on probabilities about all the voided bets so far and the outcomes of the matches, I believe the probability of no-matchfixing* in general is almost nonexistent. Then look at MK game with that knowledge + everything else said.
*requires too much effort and time for me to do calculate them now, just my educated guess.
On April 21 2015 08:47 Cascade wrote: I guess this is more or less what we would expect, fixed game or not.
The one thing I find noteworthy is how they formulate things in terms of "we asked MKP, and he said he wasnt fixing", more than "we side with MKP and guarantee you that he was not fixing". I feel they are not really taking MKPs back, more reporting on an investigation, as if they don't want to be in too much trouble if it later turns out that the game was indeed fixed.
But maybe I read too much into it, with the different culture, translation, confirmation bias, etc.
I guess the police needs to get involved for actual hard proof, tracking down the money, chat-logs, witnesses, etc. But not sure why korean police would bother with something like this.
"Article 246 of the Criminal Act punishes a person who gambles or bets for the purpose of gaining property by a fine of not more than five million won or a minor fine."
Possibly that. If the people doing the betting are Korean.
OK, yes, I didn't mean that it wasn't illegal. I just imagined that the Korean police would assign this as very low priority. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.
To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if it is overall a low priority for Korean police outside of the specific units assigned to computer-related offenses or gambling, and they are probably more focused on larger sports audiences and operations that are related to larger criminal organizations.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
This extends beyond the individuals betting on the match. Betting is illegal in Korea and match fixing is even worse. The last time we saw extensive match fixing some serious shit went down, and arguably was the killing blow to BW (as sponsors largely pulled out). If the scene is as rotten as is suggested by people on the forum, then the future of SC2 in Korea is in serious jeopardy.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
I would have added a few more "not" in your last paragraphs, but good post! I'm really NOT sorry that betters lose money over this. The scene shouldn't rely on fucking betting to survive, so it's kinda horrible that right now it may be dying because of it.
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
You are changing the subject. Matchfixing is illegal and should be punished. What matters is whether MK fixed his match or not. If huge Kespa investigation or involvement of Korean police is needed to find out the truth than we should do our best to turn enough attention to make it happen. If MK is innocent, he has nothing to lose - this investigation will show it.
Getting rid of betting is even less real than getting sponsors for Proleague teams so that their players will have less incentive to fix matches. I don't see why TL posters should waste their time on it. It is also very hypocritical to blame gambling for match fixing, since it is a crime which hurts the gambling industry.
On April 21 2015 08:47 felisconcolori wrote: Awareness is not what's needed.
Where is your explanation that awareness is not needed? I think every viewer should be aware that some of the matches he views are already determined beforehand. I think especially everyone who bets on it should be aware of it. Last but not least awareness is the only chance that we get a official statement.
On April 21 2015 08:47 felisconcolori wrote: What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically.
Why?
On April 21 2015 08:47 felisconcolori wrote: It's addictive
So is drinking and smoking. Should we make laws against anything that could potentially harm us? Should we also stop selling peanut butter because some people are allergic? There has to be a line somewhere obviously. While I agree that there are people out there that are adicted I don't think betting is evel or should be illegal. People should be educated enoguh to make their own choices.
On April 21 2015 08:47 felisconcolori wrote: Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose.
For most people it's entertainment. Why is it bad to spend money on gambling? Is it worse than paying for concert or movie tickets?
On April 21 2015 08:47 felisconcolori wrote: You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
I doubt I can make a living on the stock market with my few bucks. I am an expert on Sc2 and statistics, not on the stock market. Why would I be better of trading stocks I have no clues about?
On April 21 2015 08:47 felisconcolori wrote: Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling.
I am not sure I understand what you are saying. I would be interested what you have to say about that.
On April 21 2015 08:47 felisconcolori wrote: I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
Betting is illegal in Korea. I think it only makes the problem worse. People run to fishy illegal betting sides.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
This extends beyond the individuals betting on the match. Betting is illegal in Korea and match fixing is even worse. The last time we saw extensive match fixing some serious shit went down, and arguably was the killing blow to BW (as sponsors largely pulled out). If the scene is as rotten as is suggested by people on the forum, then the future of SC2 in Korea is in serious jeopardy.
This is why I point out that the root of the problem is not match-fixing. It's betting. Although I will concede that stopping people from betting on anything (to include any esport) is probably too much to hope for.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
This extends beyond the individuals betting on the match. Betting is illegal in Korea and match fixing is even worse. The last time we saw extensive match fixing some serious shit went down, and arguably was the killing blow to BW (as sponsors largely pulled out). If the scene is as rotten as is suggested by people on the forum, then the future of SC2 in Korea is in serious jeopardy.
MKP's first comment shortly after the game was extremely defensive and he basically just attacked the bettors. Here, MVP's "investigation" is very biased. They have an expressed preconceived bias before they start their investigation. They say they asked MKP, and he denied it, so for them, "that was enough". They only did more because they had to "give an explanation to the community". They are basically MKP's family and their trust of his word is supreme. And this is before they start their investigation.
Suffice it to say, professional SC2 is in a very sad state of affairs. Even other public personalities are saying match fixing is rampant. Who's to say where it stops, and what past matches have been fixed? How much meaning should we give to outcomes now?
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
This extends beyond the individuals betting on the match. Betting is illegal in Korea and match fixing is even worse. The last time we saw extensive match fixing some serious shit went down, and arguably was the killing blow to BW (as sponsors largely pulled out). If the scene is as rotten as is suggested by people on the forum, then the future of SC2 in Korea is in serious jeopardy.
This is why I point out that the root of the problem is not match-fixing. It's betting. Although I will concede that stopping people from betting on anything (to include any esport) is probably too much to hope for.
Your logic doesn't hold up because people can bet on these games from places where betting is legal, and purchase the knowledge of fixed matches and whatnot. So given that betting is legal somewhere, the core problem here is fundamentally matchfixing. The problem, however, is exacerbated in a country where betting is illegal and that illegal betting goes on.
Finally! I could never believe marineking would throw a game on purpose. Sad that some people accuse him of this just because of a bad game and suspicious betting lines.
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
This extends beyond the individuals betting on the match. Betting is illegal in Korea and match fixing is even worse. The last time we saw extensive match fixing some serious shit went down, and arguably was the killing blow to BW (as sponsors largely pulled out). If the scene is as rotten as is suggested by people on the forum, then the future of SC2 in Korea is in serious jeopardy.
This is why I point out that the root of the problem is not match-fixing. It's betting. Although I will concede that stopping people from betting on anything (to include any esport) is probably too much to hope for.
I agree with you in principle, in that I also really don't support professional betting. But it isn't really the main problem here in this thread... The problem here is match fixing, which stems from betting, but isn't really best solved by removing betting from the face of the earth. So if the thread title was "professional betting is bad, mmkay", I'd have your back, but here you are off topic.
to make a silly analogy, let's say that someone ran down a biker because they didn't look in the mirror before turning. Then someone comes in and says that you shouldn't be driving anyway because it's bad for the environment. While true, most would agree that the easier to fix, and less controversial, problem is not looking in the mirror. Then start a separate thread about global warming if you want that discussion.
On April 21 2015 07:50 TeeTS wrote: Everyone who knows a little bit of Marineking can absolutely confirm, that he is one of the very last players, that will ever fix a match in any professional sport/esport for monetary gain. I for myself would guarantee that for now and for the future. And since this is all about him, I don´t get what´s wrong with you. Marineking allways has been an extremely dedicated and fair compender in BW and SC2. He is an extremely passionate hard worker and he was never the guy that cared about the big bucks, NEVER! I find this whole discussion absolutely disrespectful. You should all be ashamed!
How can you guarantee anything? Do you know him? Do stay in constant contact? you're statement is groundless with nothing to back it up and then you want to tell a bunch of people they should be ashamed of themselves are you kidding me? I understand defending your favorite team and players but that was just stupid.
I for myself would guarantee that for now and for the future
WOW what a valuable guarantee. Do you offer any type of monetary compensation if Marineking gets conviced as a matchfixer? Or will you put it in a signature forever that you were the guy who wrongly guaranteed the innoence of a guy you didn't know?
On April 21 2015 09:05 felisconcolori wrote: This is why I point out that the root of the problem is not match-fixing. It's betting. Although I will concede that stopping people from betting on anything (to include any esport) is probably too much to hope for.
That's just a silly argument. That's like saying Sc2 is the root of the problem. If SC2 would not exist there would be no problems. Of course match fixing exists because betting exists. That doesn't necessarily mean betting is the root of all evil. You admit yourself that you can't expect people to stop betting on anything. Betting exists, making betting illegal cleary didn't help as we can see in Korea atm. I don't see how your pipe dream contributes to the discussion.
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up.
I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion.
I dearly wish that something was being done about this issue. It has tainted the entire Korean scene for me, and i still can't justify watching any Korean SC2, and haven't since this story first broke.
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up.
I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion.
I dearly wish that something was being done about this issue. It has tainted the entire Korean scene for me, and i still can't justify watching any Korean SC2, and haven't since this story first broke.
Ignorance would surely be bliss.
Well if sponsors pull out, there won't be games period, at least of the magnitude we have grown accustomed to. There is a saying, you reap what you sow. Nothing good for sc2 can possibly come from an investigation. This is common sense and yet people are so adamant about MVP saying this, kespa doing that, and bringing the police in. So much for "fans" huh
This response is like, the shittiest "Let's just say he didn't throw this game." response I've ever seen. I don't even know how it took them so long to write it, because it's so bad. And that tweet (in second post) is sort of confusing.
I don't know if he was matchfixing, and I don't "know" if he even threw the game, but unless we have some really insane evidence showing MarineKing had like, a mental breakdown earlier in the day, or something totally absurd, I will always think he threw that game.
its nice to see a team standing in for their players, but honestly I wouldn't have said that its proven to be wrong as there is no proof for or against the matchfixing. Just an awful game and proleague has a ton of those.
Anyway, Zerg is the best race for matchfixing, they just need to detonate their banelings by accident.
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up.
I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion.
Proof has to go beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, a way to prove match-fixing beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically using the game played, would be to see if MKP ever saw the spine or the creep in his base before the time he looked surprised seconds before the lings break in.
We know two things: MKP is a progamer with many many thousands of games played. MKP looks surprised at 5:50 in game time.
If, using the replay, we can see that his main screen (not the minimap) looks over to the spine/creep earlier, then knowing the two aforementioned facts, only two conclusions can be drawn. The first (and the much more unlikely of the two), MKP is the worst progamer in not only SC2, but in ESPORTS history. After scouting no expo from Z, and a proxy spine (and therefore hatch) at his backdoor, he was surprised that he was getting cheesed when the lings busted in? MVP would do well to let him go as soon as they could. The second, much more plausible explanation, is that he threw the game. Given how unlikely the first explanation is, I would feel like the explanation of match-fixing would easily remove all reasonable doubt and it would do the same for the majority of fans alike.
This feels like it is obviously the salient point and that's why I'm annoyed it wasn't specifically addressed in the response from MVP.
Did MVP check MK's bank account for suspicious deposits? Under his mattress for wads of cash? Did they interview his teammates, friends, family to ask if he's been throwing around extra money?
If they didn't, it wasn't an investigation. it was a farce.
Oh, and to those saying that the burden of proof is on those accusing MK of matchfixing? The Pinnacle line movement is damning evidence to anybody who knows anything about gambling. (that is to say, if you handwave it away by saying "oh gamblers make bad bets all the time", you don't know what you're talking about.)
" And if we take a close view on MarineKing's match history, he hasn't won a few Proleague games recently, so it makes it even more unlikely that he did. ”
I personally don't care if he did or did not, but this 'statement' conveys nothing except that they are deciding to keep him on the team. Bolded portion would lead more towards the opposite in most peoples' eyes.
A simple tweet or post saying: "He has denied any involvement in the matter and we trust his word after reviewing the evidence" would have sufficed much better.
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up.
I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion.
I dearly wish that something was being done about this issue. It has tainted the entire Korean scene for me, and i still can't justify watching any Korean SC2, and haven't since this story first broke.
Ignorance would surely be bliss.
Well if sponsors pull out, there won't be games period, at least of the magnitude we have grown accustomed to. There is a saying, you reap what you sow. Nothing good for sc2 can possibly come from an investigation. This is common sense and yet people are so adamant about MVP saying this, kespa doing that, and bringing the police in. So much for "fans" huh
Well you are the one arguing that illegal things are okay because it would ruin SC2 otherwise. This "for the greater good" logic never leads to greater good.
Matchfixing is like cancer, stop it early enough - it won't hurt you much, leave it unattended - you're dead. Believe it or not, it matters for some people that they watch a competition, not a play. They would just leave one by one and then only a couple of die-hard fans of some players/teams would be left - and Starcraft would die anyway.
On April 21 2015 09:46 LightSpectra wrote: Did MVP check MK's bank account for suspicious deposits? Under his mattress for wads of cash? Did they interview his teammates, friends, family to ask if he's been throwing around extra money?
If they didn't, it wasn't an investigation. it was a farce.
Oh, and to those saying that the burden of proof is on those accusing MK of matchfixing? The Pinnacle line movement is damning evidence to anybody who knows anything about gambling. (that is to say, if you handwave it away by saying "oh gamblers make bad bets all the time", you don't know what you're talking about.)
Uh, you mean, did MVP violate MK's constitutional rights as a citizen of the Republic of Korea to personal liberty and freedom from search except as provided by law?
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
This extends beyond the individuals betting on the match. Betting is illegal in Korea and match fixing is even worse. The last time we saw extensive match fixing some serious shit went down, and arguably was the killing blow to BW (as sponsors largely pulled out). If the scene is as rotten as is suggested by people on the forum, then the future of SC2 in Korea is in serious jeopardy.
This is why I point out that the root of the problem is not match-fixing. It's betting. Although I will concede that stopping people from betting on anything (to include any esport) is probably too much to hope for.
Your logic doesn't hold up because people can bet on these games from places where betting is legal, and purchase the knowledge of fixed matches and whatnot. So given that betting is legal somewhere, the core problem here is fundamentally matchfixing. The problem, however, is exacerbated in a country where betting is illegal and that illegal betting goes on.
I don't understand the "logic" of your comment either. He's saying that betting is the problem, he probably means whether legal or not. It's not because something is legal that you can't find it problematic...
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
And if people can really make a living out of betting on SC2 matches, like StarGalaxy implies, while proplayers of this game barely do, it's no wonder that machfixing is rampant.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
On April 21 2015 10:02 ZenithM wrote: And if people can really make a living out of betting on SC2 matches, like StarGalaxy implies, while proplayers of this game barely do, it's no wonder that machfixing is rampant.
Uuh poor players, they only make hundreds of thousands of dollars. http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii Should we collect donations for them? I bet MC doesn't even have enough money to feed himself. /irony off You are clearly mixing up poeple who earn money by doing analysis and people who earn money by fixing games. Do you see the difference? I really hope you do.
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
Thx for posting it. That was before my time here. I can see the similarities.
Regardless of how true the statement might be, one point that people are missing is the significance of MVP making a statement with a definite conclusion. MVP is an organization with teams in different esports. SC2 is just one of their teams, and likely their smallest and least profitable. By defending MarineKing and claiming that their investigation yielded no results, they are putting the organization's reputation on the line. Not just in SC2 but across different esports. If they did have any reason to doubt MarineKing or any other player, it makes more sense for them to either use that player as a scapegoat or avoid making definitive statements defending or condemning him. Now they've thrown the entire organization on the side of "he did not matchfix" and it has larger implications than just Starcraft.
One the one hand, the game is still fishy. It is a commonly accepted fact that illegal betting and matchfixing is common in Korea. On the other hand, I find this a curious statement to make. It makes more sense for them to give a vaguer conclusion that does not put them for or against MarineKing. This statement could have grave implications in the future that could harm them financially.
This is no reason to believe that MarineKing did not do it. This is also not a reason to believe that MVP's investigation was bogus. The statement does not really prove anything, but it does mean that MVP has put its reputation as an organization across multiple games on the line. I'd like to believe that they are not dumb enough to do this without understanding all the consequences of their actions, whatever the truth may be.
This makes me very sad, as i have been watching sc2 since the beggining and i was one of those people, screaming like crazy over skype with a friend at 6am when the MKP vs Kyrix games happened.
However, the evidence we have (vod, bettings behaviour) makes it very evident for me. We wont have MK's or MVP's confirmation, ever. But this is as evident as we can get. His game behaviour was completely uncharasteristic of a player his level, add to that the other betting scandals, lack of replay...
edit: i'd also like to add that it could very well be an unprobable coincidence of actions/events. It will all be clear when the replay is released. (and yes i know that is kespa's responsability/job)
On April 21 2015 10:02 ZenithM wrote: And if people can really make a living out of betting on SC2 matches, like StarGalaxy implies, while proplayers of this game barely do, it's no wonder that machfixing is rampant.
Uuh poor players, they only make hundreds of thousands of dollars. http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii Should we collect donations for them? I bet MC doesn't even have enough money to feed himself.
Because MC is totally representative of an average pro-player's earnings -.-
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
also about his body language first of all I don't see it second of all this is a pro people expect things of yet sucks and has sucked for a while. all the reason needed for bad body language particularly to play such a bad game he mush of known his form was off yet again.. frankly it wouldn't surprise me to find that a lot of people with no particular regard for marineking (like me) expected him to lose with no inside info and were willing to bet a lot of money on it.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
I'd write that off as human error. Stork vs. Bisu in some finals or another had a match where Stork forgot to research Singularity Charge, a critical tech for PvP in the old BW days.
On April 21 2015 10:07 fruity. wrote: So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
To be fair, from FP view of MKP when I was watching the match that spot on the minimap looked a lot like an overlord. I'm pretty sure he did see it and thought it was an ovie which makes sense to have in that position.
On April 21 2015 10:13 lichter wrote: Well at least it is something.
Regardless of how true the statement might be, one point that people are missing is the significance of MVP making a statement with a definite conclusion. MVP is an organization with teams in different esports. SC2 is just one of their teams, and likely their smallest and least profitable. By defending MarineKing and claiming that their investigation yielded no results, they are putting the organization's reputation on the line. Not just in SC2 but across different esports. If they did have any reason to doubt MarineKing or any other player, it makes more sense for them to either use that player as a scapegoat or avoid making definitive statements defending or condemning him. Now they've thrown the entire organization on the side of "he did not matchfix" and it has larger implications than just Starcraft.
One the one hand, the game is still fishy. It is a commonly accepted fact that illegal betting and matchfixing is common in Korea. On the other hand, I find this a curious statement to make. It makes more sense for them to give a vaguer conclusion that does not put them for or against MarineKing. This statement could have grave implications in the future that could harm them financially.
This is no reason to believe that MarineKing did not do it. This is also not a reason to believe that MVP's investigation was bogus. The statement does not really prove anything, but it does mean that MVP has put its reputation as an organization across multiple games on the line. I'd like to believe that they are not dumb enough to do this without understanding all the consequences of their actions, whatever the truth may be.
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
To me it seems more like MVP is siding with MKP here because it's their player and that's what they need to do. If it later turns out that MKP was indeed matchfixing I doubt the consequences would be as severe as you describe. They would just publish a PR-response. It's not that that result would undermine their "investigation". Even if MKP was matchfixing they can hardly held accountable for not succesfully proving it with their investigation. It's not like the team MVP is voching for him. They say the investigations results are,... we believe in him,... nothing more.
@magicallypuzzled You can find the answer to your question in this and in other threads. I am not wasting my time explaining it on every page.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base?
It can't be an overlord since an overlord doesn't stay on the minimap as the Spine does.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base?
It can't be an overlord since an overlord doesn't stay on the minimap as the Spine does.
he probably didn't realize he didn't still have vision of it or didn't notice it at all.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
On April 21 2015 10:13 lichter wrote: Well at least it is something.
Regardless of how true the statement might be, one point that people are missing is the significance of MVP making a statement with a definite conclusion. MVP is an organization with teams in different esports. SC2 is just one of their teams, and likely their smallest and least profitable. By defending MarineKing and claiming that their investigation yielded no results, they are putting the organization's reputation on the line. Not just in SC2 but across different esports. If they did have any reason to doubt MarineKing or any other player, it makes more sense for them to either use that player as a scapegoat or avoid making definitive statements defending or condemning him. Now they've thrown the entire organization on the side of "he did not matchfix" and it has larger implications than just Starcraft.
One the one hand, the game is still fishy. It is a commonly accepted fact that illegal betting and matchfixing is common in Korea. On the other hand, I find this a curious statement to make. It makes more sense for them to give a vaguer conclusion that does not put them for or against MarineKing. This statement could have grave implications in the future that could harm them financially.
This is no reason to believe that MarineKing did not do it. This is also not a reason to believe that MVP's investigation was bogus. The statement does not really prove anything, but it does mean that MVP has put its reputation as an organization across multiple games on the line. I'd like to believe that they are not dumb enough to do this without understanding all the consequences of their actions, whatever the truth may be.
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
To me it seems more like MVP is siding with MKP here because it's their player and that's what they need to do. If it later turns out that MKP was indeed matchfixing I doubt the consequences would be as severe as you describe. They would just publish a PR-response. It's not that that result would undermine their "investigation". Even if MKP was matchfixing they can hardly held accountable for not succesfully proving it with their investigation. It's not like the team MVP is voching for him. They say the investigations results are,... we believe in him,... nothing more.
There is a big difference between "I have decided to trust him" and "But at the very end, all evidence gave us the same answer – Lee was not matchfixing." One does not absolve him of blame while the other does. This isn't the same as a manager siding with a player after a bout of poor behavior or a team supporting a player after a misdemeanor. This is a team telling the world that their player is definitely innocent (of doing something illegal, not just some in-game foul or mistake) and that they're investigation yielded no proof otherwise.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote: It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
This. I'm so sick of the ridiculous twisted mentalities that a lot of people in the "community" here on TL and elsewhere seem to have.
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tears tins on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
When all the evidence points to MKP being guilty here, you better come up with something better than "he said he didn't do it" before you conclude that he definitely didn't matchfix.
He played like utter SHIT yes, but that is not in any way 'evidence'.
Edit - This 'trial by pitchforks' shit needs to stop. Everyone being judge, jury and executioner based on their own opinions rather than hard evidence is bullshit.
On April 21 2015 10:02 ZenithM wrote: And if people can really make a living out of betting on SC2 matches, like StarGalaxy implies, while proplayers of this game barely do, it's no wonder that machfixing is rampant.
Uuh poor players, they only make hundreds of thousands of dollars. http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii Should we collect donations for them? I bet MC doesn't even have enough money to feed himself. /irony off You are clearly mixing up poeple who earn money by doing analysis and people who earn money by fixing games. Do you see the difference? I really hope you do.
[...]
I don't see where this comment from me was an attack on you, but I won't hide that in general I don't really have much respect for sport betters. It's fine when contestants are already superstars who make way more that you can betting on them, but if players are earning less than betters, they're just easy prey. All the more so as nobody does anything about matchfixing anyway, so you don't really pay the price for forsaking your progamer honor.
Lichter raises a good point about the wording of this statement. It goes much further than it needs to concerning their final opinion, and they make it pretty clear they are certain about MarineKing's innocence. I would guess that their investigation would have to be pretty thorough/convincing for them to say it like this, otherwise they could make a really generic PR statement like lots of other organizations do.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote: It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
This. I'm so sick of the ridiculous twisted mentalities that a lot of people in the "community" here on TL and elsewhere seem to have.
What "mentality?" That they accept this match was a complete joke to watch and they just want to move on? I don't see anything wrong with that.
On April 21 2015 10:13 lichter wrote: Well at least it is something.
Regardless of how true the statement might be, one point that people are missing is the significance of MVP making a statement with a definite conclusion. MVP is an organization with teams in different esports. SC2 is just one of their teams, and likely their smallest and least profitable. By defending MarineKing and claiming that their investigation yielded no results, they are putting the organization's reputation on the line. Not just in SC2 but across different esports. If they did have any reason to doubt MarineKing or any other player, it makes more sense for them to either use that player as a scapegoat or avoid making definitive statements defending or condemning him. Now they've thrown the entire organization on the side of "he did not matchfix" and it has larger implications than just Starcraft.
One the one hand, the game is still fishy. It is a commonly accepted fact that illegal betting and matchfixing is common in Korea. On the other hand, I find this a curious statement to make. It makes more sense for them to give a vaguer conclusion that does not put them for or against MarineKing. This statement could have grave implications in the future that could harm them financially.
This is no reason to believe that MarineKing did not do it. This is also not a reason to believe that MVP's investigation was bogus. The statement does not really prove anything, but it does mean that MVP has put its reputation as an organization across multiple games on the line. I'd like to believe that they are not dumb enough to do this without understanding all the consequences of their actions, whatever the truth may be.
I had to chuckle because I just read:
On April 21 2015 09:55 GTR wrote:
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
To me it seems more like MVP is siding with MKP here because it's their player and that's what they need to do. If it later turns out that MKP was indeed matchfixing I doubt the consequences would be as severe as you describe. They would just publish a PR-response. It's not that that result would undermine their "investigation". Even if MKP was matchfixing they can hardly held accountable for not succesfully proving it with their investigation. It's not like the team MVP is voching for him. They say the investigations results are,... we believe in him,... nothing more.
There is a big difference between "I have decided to trust him" and "But at the very end, all evidence gave us the same answer – Lee was not matchfixing." One does not absolve him of blame while the other does. This isn't the same as a manager siding with a player after a bout of poor behavior or a team supporting a player after a misdemeanor. This is a team telling the world that their player is definitely innocent (of doing something illegal, not just some in-game foul or mistake) and that they're investigation yielded no proof otherwise.
This time the coach says he made an investigation. I mean sure, I agree that it is worded more strongly.
Both times a manager/coach sides with his player. I have no idea what his investigations included or if they even happened. I have to take his word for it similar to the 2010 case. That the coach says he made an investigation doesn't make a difference to me here. I have no proof or even a statement of what he has done exactly.
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
Thank you for being the voice of reason TotalBiscuit, I'm relieved to hear this from you.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
seem like comparable mistakes to me particular since while the upgrades might not be specifically looked at much there is a animation showing that a particular building is researching something and people are trained to see it. also how the hell do you not see that a forge doesn't get built and than never look at that spot where there should be a building forge how the hell is that explainable? particularly when your plan requires it to work.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote: It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
This. I'm so sick of the ridiculous twisted mentalities that a lot of people in the "community" here on TL and elsewhere seem to have.
What "mentality?" That they accept this match was a complete joke to watch and they just want to move on? I don't see anything wrong with that.
No, I can't be fucked to go back and find the people whose mentalities I was referring to, but that's totally fine if you think the game was crap and want to move on as you say. That's actually legit.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
He threw. It's sad, but that's what happened.
You still follow starcraft?
I agree though. The real question is what the hell can we do about it?
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
He threw. It's sad, but that's what happened.
Correct and even as a long time CJ fan it was disgusting to see all the high 5's at the end.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
He threw. It's sad, but that's what happened.
perhaps people with out fanboy logic are just really good at seeing when a particular player is completely of their game and likely to lose their next matches?
On April 21 2015 10:39 The_Templar wrote: Lichter raises a good point about the wording of this statement. It goes much further than it needs to concerning their final opinion, and they make it pretty clear they are certain about MarineKing's innocence. I would guess that their investigation would have to be pretty thorough/convincing for them to say it like this, otherwise they could make a really generic PR statement like lots of other organizations do.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
He threw. It's sad, but that's what happened.
You still follow starcraft?
I agree though. The real question is what the hell can we do about it?
I watch the Liquid guys in WCS mostly, don't really watch GSL anymore.
I don't think there's much to do about it, it's sad because it ruins the feeling around proleague. Hopefully Kespa cleans it up but from what Rek posted it sounds like they won't.
On April 21 2015 10:48 fruity. wrote: Forgot to add in my previous post that Mk scouted Byul's natural at 3.20 in game time. This alone should of set alarm bells ringing, should it not?
This whole issue is a fine example of apophenia I guess? Depending on your point of view.
Make of it what you will.
Haha, man stop rehashing the same things everybody has said for weeks :D. There's a whole thread where posters said all that and more. It may be locked, I don't know, but it's no use talking about the in-game facts anymore.
On April 21 2015 10:13 lichter wrote: Well at least it is something.
Regardless of how true the statement might be, one point that people are missing is the significance of MVP making a statement with a definite conclusion. MVP is an organization with teams in different esports. SC2 is just one of their teams, and likely their smallest and least profitable. By defending MarineKing and claiming that their investigation yielded no results, they are putting the organization's reputation on the line. Not just in SC2 but across different esports. If they did have any reason to doubt MarineKing or any other player, it makes more sense for them to either use that player as a scapegoat or avoid making definitive statements defending or condemning him. Now they've thrown the entire organization on the side of "he did not matchfix" and it has larger implications than just Starcraft.
One the one hand, the game is still fishy. It is a commonly accepted fact that illegal betting and matchfixing is common in Korea. On the other hand, I find this a curious statement to make. It makes more sense for them to give a vaguer conclusion that does not put them for or against MarineKing. This statement could have grave implications in the future that could harm them financially.
This is no reason to believe that MarineKing did not do it. This is also not a reason to believe that MVP's investigation was bogus. The statement does not really prove anything, but it does mean that MVP has put its reputation as an organization across multiple games on the line. I'd like to believe that they are not dumb enough to do this without understanding all the consequences of their actions, whatever the truth may be.
I had to chuckle because I just read:
On April 21 2015 09:55 GTR wrote:
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
To me it seems more like MVP is siding with MKP here because it's their player and that's what they need to do. If it later turns out that MKP was indeed matchfixing I doubt the consequences would be as severe as you describe. They would just publish a PR-response. It's not that that result would undermine their "investigation". Even if MKP was matchfixing they can hardly held accountable for not succesfully proving it with their investigation. It's not like the team MVP is voching for him. They say the investigations results are,... we believe in him,... nothing more.
There is a big difference between "I have decided to trust him" and "But at the very end, all evidence gave us the same answer – Lee was not matchfixing." One does not absolve him of blame while the other does. This isn't the same as a manager siding with a player after a bout of poor behavior or a team supporting a player after a misdemeanor. This is a team telling the world that their player is definitely innocent (of doing something illegal, not just some in-game foul or mistake) and that they're investigation yielded no proof otherwise.
This time the coach says he made an investigation. I mean sure, I agree that it is worded more strongly.
Both times a manager/coach sides with his player. I have no idea what his investigations included or if they even happened. I have to take his word for it similar to the 2010 case. That the coach says he made an investigation doesn't make a difference to me here. I have no proof or even a statement of what he has done exactly.
In MVP's statement they put themselves up to scrutiny. If it is revealed that MarineKing did throw then their reputation is tarnished due to the fact that they either did not investigate properly, or found it and then decided to hide it. However it could be that MVP's investigation is 100% legitimate and MarineKing didn't throw and that's why they feel confident enough to make this statement.
On April 21 2015 10:44 Hot_Bid wrote: Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
He threw. It's sad, but that's what happened.
You still follow starcraft?
I agree though. The real question is what the hell can we do about it?
Just don't support pro league anymore. If you really feel that strongly about this? They lose western audience and they market it in korea. Then it's back to restreams again like in broodwar after gom stopped their tournaments for the people that are still interested.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
He threw. It's sad, but that's what happened.
You still follow starcraft?
I agree though. The real question is what the hell can we do about it?
Just don't support pro league anymore. If you really feel that strongly about this? They lose western audience and they market it in korea. Then it's back to restreams again like in broodwar after gom stopped their tournaments.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
He threw. It's sad, but that's what happened.
You still follow starcraft?
I agree though. The real question is what the hell can we do about it?
Just don't support pro league anymore. If you really feel that strongly about this? They lose western audience and they market it in korea. Then it's back to restreams again like in broodwar after gom stopped their tournaments for the people that are still interested.
So let's let Sc2 die? Ya sounds like a great idea. You know there's no starcraft scene without the korean scene, right? You really think foreigners are gonna keep people interested? That ship sailed a long time ago.
On April 21 2015 10:39 ZenithM wrote: I don't see where this comment from me was an attack on you,
neither do I. Did I say that?
On April 21 2015 10:39 ZenithM wrote: but I won't hide that in general I don't really have much respect for sport betters. It's fine when contestants are already superstars who make way more that you can betting on them, but if players are earning less than betters, they're just easy prey. All the more so as nobody does anything about matchfixing anyway, so you don't really pay the price for forsaking your progamer honor.
I doubt any better (excluding the betters that match fix) made anything near the money MKP did.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
He threw. It's sad, but that's what happened.
You still follow starcraft?
I agree though. The real question is what the hell can we do about it?
Just don't support pro league anymore. If you really feel that strongly about this? They lose western audience and they market it in korea. Then it's back to restreams again like in broodwar after gom stopped their tournaments for the people that are still interested.
So let's let Sc2 die? Ya sounds like a great idea. You know there's no starcraft scene without the korean scene, right? You really think foreigners are gonna keep people interested? That ship sailed a long time ago.
Sc2 isn't gonna die if some people decide they don't care for kespa. They have a new expansion thats gonna get shipped this year. If they don't screw it up it will reignite interest in the game. I hate to break it to you but WCS is far superior to the korean tournaments. Sure they don't cater to team play but quality is way higher in the broadcast.
Well, statement was as expected. Teams almost always side with their players and it's already been explained why saying that match fixing took place will drag SCII into the dirt in Korea. For me, based on all the evidence available (the way he played the game, the betting lines, being so defensive on facebook etc...) all seem to point to him being guilty. Let's examine these a bit further, shall we? Gameplay- you might be saying, well, bigfan, everyone makes mistakes. This is also MKP who does the stupidest crap ever. Yep, I hear you. I've seen him try 3cc and lose to zerg so many times, it's ridiculous. However, a progamer that is set on winning a game will at least try to do things properly. See something on minimap? check what it is. Have reapers? scout around to find out where the opponent's money is going. Problem is, if MKP was newer to the scene with nil experience or some amateur, it might be more understandable why he would make those mistakes but he's a guy whose's been around from day 1, played a ton of tournaments, games, changed teams etc... It's essentially impossible for someone with his experience to miss a spinecrawler for that long. I'm a total SCII noob having not played the game in years and I can tell you if I saw anything different on the minimap (even if slightly), I would've checked. Same goes with the back entrance. So, let's say he missed the color on the map. Seeing as there is only one other entrance to his main, why was there no marine there? Whether in SCII or BW, watching the back entrance is always a must because it's so easy for the opponent to break it down and get free access to your base. I dunno, it's just perplexing that he made those 2-3 mistakes for someone of his caliber. Betting lines- been explained a lot, too much actually lol. So defensive on fb- it's fine to be defensive and call gamblers trash or w/e but at least explain how things went down. Heck, if he said that he wasn't feeling well but didn't want to fail the team (headache, fever, etc.... just pick something!), then at least, we can say that maybe that was a contributing factor on top of his already bizzare usual gameplay but he doesn't even say anything in regards to the game. It's not an admission of guilt but it could've at least lowered some eyebrows.
Rough for the scene overall though. Wonder just how widespread this stuff is.
On April 21 2015 10:07 fruity. wrote: So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
To be fair, from FP view of MKP when I was watching the match that spot on the minimap looked a lot like an overlord. I'm pretty sure he did see it and thought it was an ovie which makes sense to have in that position.
If it was an overload, it would've disappeared on the minimap. Only buildings would remain so that point is false.
On April 21 2015 10:51 lichter wrote: ... I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
He threw. It's sad, but that's what happened.
You still follow starcraft?
I agree though. The real question is what the hell can we do about it?
Just don't support pro league anymore. If you really feel that strongly about this? They lose western audience and they market it in korea. Then it's back to restreams again like in broodwar after gom stopped their tournaments.
killing it isn't the way to go
No it's not but some people may just decide to lose interest in kespa tournaments. Maybe for a season or maybe not return. There really isn't much anyone can do about that if a person makes that choice.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
That was the one where people were betting on TerrOr but ByuL won, right? That seems really odd to me.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
He threw. It's sad, but that's what happened.
You still follow starcraft?
I agree though. The real question is what the hell can we do about it?
Just don't support pro league anymore. If you really feel that strongly about this? They lose western audience and they market it in korea. Then it's back to restreams again like in broodwar after gom stopped their tournaments for the people that are still interested.
So let's let Sc2 die? Ya sounds like a great idea. You know there's no starcraft scene without the korean scene, right? You really think foreigners are gonna keep people interested? That ship sailed a long time ago.
Sc2 isn't gonna die if some people decide they don't care for kespa. They have a new expansion thats gonna get shipped this year. If they don't screw it up it will reignite interest in the game. I hate to break it to you but WCS is far superior to the korean tournaments. Sure they don't cater to team play but quality is way higher in the broadcast.
Spoiler alert, Blizzard's probably gonna screw it up, they've shown no signs of anything else happening so far in the beta. Any interest that's reignited among more casual viewers will be lost in a year or two just like the last two expansions. Maybe the broadcast quality is higher, especially compared to GSL, but the games aren't.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
I think people also misunderstand the role of Pinnacle and Pinnacle's bettors in this. The matchfixers aren't betting on Pinnacle. Matchfixers are betting on Korean betting sites. The curious activity that occurs on Pinnacle is due to some observant bettors that look at the Korean betting sites taking advantage of what appear to be fixed games. When they see curious activity on Korean betting sites, they try to take advantage by betting the same way on Pinnacle. There are several possible scenarios possible from this type of activity:
1.) Multiple Pinnacle bettors try to ride the wave and the odds explode, leading to cancelled bets — this is what we've seen happen 2.) Only a handful of Pinnacle bettors notice the possible fix, and the odds don't move enough to give us a clue — since the lines did not get voided, we don't realize these games could have been fixed 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
That's why Pinnacle can't stop matchfixing or the illegal betting. What happens on Pinnacle is merely a bunch of bettors trying to ride the wave, and they have no direct involvement with the fixing.
Well, marineking is basically your poster-child degenerate sc2 pro, so I'm not surprised in the slightest that he would be involved in something like this. Fits his image perfectly.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
Call it confirmation bias but to me, MKP's surprised look and lean forward, several seconds after the creep has reached his cc, looks faked to me. Like who would actually do that? Also interesting that Wolf remarked on MKP's facial expression from the start looking different than he had ever seen it.
Combine this with the fact that he kept his reapers in his base and didn't even look for a proxy, didn't look at the dot on the minimap (and he would know it's not an ovie because he would know it's far enough from the edge of his vision to not be).
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
I'd imagine that having played thousands and thousands of games MKP would know that overlords don't show on the map when they're in fog of war.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
I think people also misunderstand the role of Pinnacle and Pinnacle's bettors in this. The matchfixers aren't betting on Pinnacle. Matchfixers are betting on Korean betting sites. The curious activity that occurs on Pinnacle is due to some observant bettors that look at the Korean betting sites taking advantage of what appear to be fixed games. When they see curious activity on Korean betting sites, they try to take advantage by betting the same way on Pinnacle. There are several possible scenarios possible from this type of activity:
1.) Multiple Pinnacle bettors try to ride the wave and the odds explode, leading to cancelled bets — this is what we've seen happen 2.) Only a handful of Pinnacle bettors notice the possible fix, and the odds don't move enough to give us a clue — since the lines did not get voided, we don't realize these games could have been fixed 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
That's why Pinnacle can't stop matchfixing or the illegal betting. What happens on Pinnacle is merely a bunch of bettors trying to ride the wave, and they have no direct involvement with the fixing.
The wave ridding makes no sense. Nobody does that. A good bettor does the exact opposite. Whenever you see a big steam of money the opposite line gets more interesting to bet on. Why would anyone risk betting huge amounts of money at terrible odds? Either they lose it or the bet gets voided.
You may be right about the korean betting sides and that Pinnacle is just a side effect. What I and other bettors think is that the match fixer is selling the information to a group of people. That's why Pinnacle and other sites have probably trouble just banning the accounts of the fixers. It would be an easy fix otherwise. It would be quite obvious if only a low number of accounts bet tens of thousands of money on a single match. Bets got voided in cases when people tried to sell it to too many other people. I think there were a lot more cases when Pinnacle didn't void the bets but the match was clearly match fixed. (See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476033-pinnacle-voids-dark-vs-san-bets-due-to-match-manipulation-concerns?page=52#1034 )
Statement didn't address the betting line at all, just that the gameplay looked suspicious. If the betting lines didn't exist I'd 100% believe that there was no match fixing too
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
I think people also misunderstand the role of Pinnacle and Pinnacle's bettors in this. The matchfixers aren't betting on Pinnacle. Matchfixers are betting on Korean betting sites. The curious activity that occurs on Pinnacle is due to some observant bettors that look at the Korean betting sites taking advantage of what appear to be fixed games. When they see curious activity on Korean betting sites, they try to take advantage by betting the same way on Pinnacle. There are several possible scenarios possible from this type of activity:
1.) Multiple Pinnacle bettors try to ride the wave and the odds explode, leading to cancelled bets — this is what we've seen happen 2.) Only a handful of Pinnacle bettors notice the possible fix, and the odds don't move enough to give us a clue — since the lines did not get voided, we don't realize these games could have been fixed 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
That's why Pinnacle can't stop matchfixing or the illegal betting. What happens on Pinnacle is merely a bunch of bettors trying to ride the wave, and they have no direct involvement with the fixing.
The wave ridding makes no sense. Nobody does that. A good bettor does the exact opposite. Whenever you see a big steam of money the opposite line gets more interesting to bet on. Why would anyone risk betting huge amounts of money at terrible odds? Either they lose it or the bet gets voided.
You may be right about the korean betting sides and that Pinnacle is just a side effect. What I and other bettors think is that the match fixer is selling the information to a group of people. That's why Pinnacle and other sites have probably trouble just banning the accounts of the fixers. It would be an easy fix otherwise. It would be quite obvious if only a low number of accounts bet tens of thousands of money on a single match. Bets got voided in cases when people tried to sell it to too many other people. I think there were a lot more cases when Pinnacle didn't void the bets but the match was clearly match fixed. (See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476033-pinnacle-voids-dark-vs-san-bets-due-to-match-manipulation-concerns?page=52#1034 )
We've already talked to Pinnacle and they seem hesitant to do anything to the accounts, since they can't prove that the accounts were in on the fix (illegal) and not merely riding the wave (not illegal). It's entirely possible that some Pinnacle bettors are buying for info on the fix, though, and then got greedy. Every instance of bets being voided is just stupidity on the part of the bettors. It's very very possible that there were other fixes that no one noticed, but there's also a chance that there were games that appeared fixed due to people trying to ride the wave and getting it wrong.
MVP did not prove MarineKing's innocence any more than his guilt has been proven. The statement may as well say, "we're not about to sabotage what money we eek out of Starcraft." I can hardly blame them, as they're probably not swimming in cash. The fan in me also would rather see a few more years of Starcraft, if the alternative is worse.
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
Thank you. There's a lot of new posters here that seem to think that TeamLiquid posters are being harsh for no reason. Unfortunately, a lot of the older posters at TL have seen this happen before, when one of the best players in Brood War history threw matches and brought down many others with him. There are a lot of coincidences, like Rekrul (who knows more than anyone else in this topic) informing us about what's going on in both cases.
Nobody wants to see stuff like this happen, but there's no reason to be mad about anyone expecting the worst, because things sure don't look good.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
On April 21 2015 11:07 gyrus wrote: Well, marineking is basically your poster-child degenerate sc2 pro, so I'm not surprised in the slightest that he would be involved in something like this. Fits his image perfectly.
You know I'm a big MKP fan and I really want to see him innocent in this. Despite this I can accept the evidence pointing against him and can say that it really doesn't look good for him.
But I cannot understand your statement. When you talk about degeneration do you mean his emotionality? Because I always thought this was a sign that MKP was serious about the games he played. Not sure why you think that a gamer with such a mentality was predestined to matchfix.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
I think people also misunderstand the role of Pinnacle and Pinnacle's bettors in this. The matchfixers aren't betting on Pinnacle. Matchfixers are betting on Korean betting sites. The curious activity that occurs on Pinnacle is due to some observant bettors that look at the Korean betting sites taking advantage of what appear to be fixed games. When they see curious activity on Korean betting sites, they try to take advantage by betting the same way on Pinnacle. There are several possible scenarios possible from this type of activity:
1.) Multiple Pinnacle bettors try to ride the wave and the odds explode, leading to cancelled bets — this is what we've seen happen 2.) Only a handful of Pinnacle bettors notice the possible fix, and the odds don't move enough to give us a clue — since the lines did not get voided, we don't realize these games could have been fixed 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
That's why Pinnacle can't stop matchfixing or the illegal betting. What happens on Pinnacle is merely a bunch of bettors trying to ride the wave, and they have no direct involvement with the fixing.
The wave ridding makes no sense. Nobody does that. A good bettor does the exact opposite. Whenever you see a big steam of money the opposite line gets more interesting to bet on. Why would anyone risk betting huge amounts of money at terrible odds? Either they lose it or the bet gets voided.
You may be right about the korean betting sides and that Pinnacle is just a side effect. What I and other bettors think is that the match fixer is selling the information to a group of people. That's why Pinnacle and other sites have probably trouble just banning the accounts of the fixers. It would be an easy fix otherwise. It would be quite obvious if only a low number of accounts bet tens of thousands of money on a single match. Bets got voided in cases when people tried to sell it to too many other people. I think there were a lot more cases when Pinnacle didn't void the bets but the match was clearly match fixed. (See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476033-pinnacle-voids-dark-vs-san-bets-due-to-match-manipulation-concerns?page=52#1034 )
We've already talked to Pinnacle and they seem hesitant to do anything to the accounts, since they can't prove that the accounts were in on the fix (illegal) and not merely riding the wave (not illegal). It's entirely possible that some Pinnacle bettors are buying for info on the fix, though, and then got greedy. Every instance of bets being voided is just stupidity on the part of the bettors. It's very very possible that there were other fixes that no one noticed, but there's also a chance that there were games that appeared fixed due to people trying to ride the wave and getting it wrong.
Well that reassures my theory of the fixer selling the information part. Pinnacle wouldn't hestitate to ban accounts that are obviously involved, since they could potentially lose a lot of money there. They also have rules that give them permission to ban accounts without any need to comment on it.
That people see patterns on korean betting sides and then use that knowledge to bet on Pinnacle is certainly possible. We can however rule out that people see a big stream on smth and bet on it. That makes no sense as described above.
but there's also a chance that there were games that appeared fixed due to people trying to ride the wave and getting it wrong.
I think this is what might have happened in the Byul vs Terror match. In all the other suspicious games the player with the money on always won and those were a lot of cases. I don't think people were riding a wave, but somehow there must have been wrong information out there. Maybe people trying to sell off wrong information. But there are also other possibilities.
What concerns me is that this is literally the only thing we've heard after the game in question was probably the most suspicious thing we've seen in the history of professional SC2. Inexplicable mistakes. Multiple pros saying that there was pretty much no reasonable explanation. Voided bets. And thus far all we've got is one poorly written facebook post from MVP, who are hardly an unbiased party in the matter? Whether or not MKP is guilty, that's very worrying.
On April 21 2015 10:13 lichter wrote: Well at least it is something.
Regardless of how true the statement might be, one point that people are missing is the significance of MVP making a statement with a definite conclusion. MVP is an organization with teams in different esports. SC2 is just one of their teams, and likely their smallest and least profitable. By defending MarineKing and claiming that their investigation yielded no results, they are putting the organization's reputation on the line. Not just in SC2 but across different esports. If they did have any reason to doubt MarineKing or any other player, it makes more sense for them to either use that player as a scapegoat or avoid making definitive statements defending or condemning him. Now they've thrown the entire organization on the side of "he did not matchfix" and it has larger implications than just Starcraft.
One the one hand, the game is still fishy. It is a commonly accepted fact that illegal betting and matchfixing is common in Korea. On the other hand, I find this a curious statement to make. It makes more sense for them to give a vaguer conclusion that does not put them for or against MarineKing. This statement could have grave implications in the future that could harm them financially.
This is no reason to believe that MarineKing did not do it. This is also not a reason to believe that MVP's investigation was bogus. The statement does not really prove anything, but it does mean that MVP has put its reputation as an organization across multiple games on the line. I'd like to believe that they are not dumb enough to do this without understanding all the consequences of their actions, whatever the truth may be.
I had to chuckle because I just read:
On April 21 2015 09:55 GTR wrote:
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
To me it seems more like MVP is siding with MKP here because it's their player and that's what they need to do. If it later turns out that MKP was indeed matchfixing I doubt the consequences would be as severe as you describe. They would just publish a PR-response. It's not that that result would undermine their "investigation". Even if MKP was matchfixing they can hardly held accountable for not succesfully proving it with their investigation. It's not like the team MVP is voching for him. They say the investigations results are,... we believe in him,... nothing more.
There is a big difference between "I have decided to trust him" and "But at the very end, all evidence gave us the same answer – Lee was not matchfixing." One does not absolve him of blame while the other does. This isn't the same as a manager siding with a player after a bout of poor behavior or a team supporting a player after a misdemeanor. This is a team telling the world that their player is definitely innocent (of doing something illegal, not just some in-game foul or mistake) and that they're investigation yielded no proof otherwise.
This time the coach says he made an investigation. I mean sure, I agree that it is worded more strongly.
Both times a manager/coach sides with his player. I have no idea what his investigations included or if they even happened. I have to take his word for it similar to the 2010 case. That the coach says he made an investigation doesn't make a difference to me here. I have no proof or even a statement of what he has done exactly.
In MVP's statement they put themselves up to scrutiny. If it is revealed that MarineKing did throw then their reputation is tarnished due to the fact that they either did not investigate properly, or found it and then decided to hide it. However it could be that MVP's investigation is 100% legitimate and MarineKing didn't throw and that's why they feel confident enough to make this statement.
On April 21 2015 10:44 Hot_Bid wrote: Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
There was odd line movement on two games that were not cancelled by pinnacle with 1w 1l but the line move wasnt anywhere near as suspicious as the 5 voided matches. 5/5 of the voided matches where the betting lines went totally nuts the player all of the money was bet against lost
On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote: Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public?
Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it
Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly?
On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote: Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public?
Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it
Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly?
If they were going to do something like that they'd definately nbeed Kespa's permission. plus who decides who the experts are because I'm pretty sure MVP doesn't think that tb and TL staff are the best people to look at it (from their perspective) and would probably defer to Kespa who probably would have their own people. (no offense meant to TL staff and TB obv.)
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
I think people also misunderstand the role of Pinnacle and Pinnacle's bettors in this. The matchfixers aren't betting on Pinnacle. Matchfixers are betting on Korean betting sites. The curious activity that occurs on Pinnacle is due to some observant bettors that look at the Korean betting sites taking advantage of what appear to be fixed games. When they see curious activity on Korean betting sites, they try to take advantage by betting the same way on Pinnacle. There are several possible scenarios possible from this type of activity:
1.) Multiple Pinnacle bettors try to ride the wave and the odds explode, leading to cancelled bets — this is what we've seen happen 2.) Only a handful of Pinnacle bettors notice the possible fix, and the odds don't move enough to give us a clue — since the lines did not get voided, we don't realize these games could have been fixed 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
That's why Pinnacle can't stop matchfixing or the illegal betting. What happens on Pinnacle is merely a bunch of bettors trying to ride the wave, and they have no direct involvement with the fixing.
I received an offer to have four fixed match results a year sold to me for 2k i cant speak to the legitimacy of the offer but if its legitimate the fixers sell results of some fixed matches which could be what led to those 5 matches specifically being voided
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
Thank you. There's a lot of new posters here that seem to think that TeamLiquid posters are being harsh for no reason. Unfortunately, a lot of the older posters at TL have seen this happen before, when one of the best players in Brood War history threw matches and brought down many others with him. There are a lot of coincidences, like Rekrul (who knows more than anyone else in this topic) informing us about what's going on in both cases.
Nobody wants to see stuff like this happen, but there's no reason to be mad about anyone expecting the worst, because things sure don't look good.
Just purely out of interest, because I don't know anything about the BW scandal other than reading a few things about it. I thought that it wasn't ever proved that Savior actually match fixed himself; he just was the coordinator? Or am I wrong
On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote: Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public?
Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it
Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly?
Kespa could also just make an exception to their rule and release it. That's not what they want. They clearly don't want to draw any attention to it. If kespa cared thay would have made a statement by now. Their strategy is to sweep it under the rug and hope that it will go away. I suspect it will grow however and at some point it will be difficult to ignore. Let's hope that this happens before the scene is too damaged to recover.
Honest question. If a player were to agree to match-fix but ultimately ended up winning, how would he be punished by the betters?
Like if MarineKing really did agree to match-fix but was given a free win. Would the match-betters (dunno the formal term) find some way to fine him? Or would he just not get the match-fixing money.
I'm guessing these match-fixers aren't some kind of mafia who will track down players and jump them. What are players usually scared of besides their want for money.
On April 21 2015 07:19 Dodgin wrote: It's nice that we got a statement but frankly I'm not convinced.
Yeah the statement was just "MKP insisted he didn't, so therefore we're going to back up our man", which isn't a bad thing to say, except it doesn't really provide closure to anyone wondering what MKP's mindset was and how he didn't react appropriately at all. What was his rationale and why did he make the decisions he made during the game? I guess MVP is just chalking it up to nerves and saying that MKP really did play that poorly.
On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote: Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public?
Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it
Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly?
They could also just make an exception to their rule and release it. That's not what they want. They clearly don't want to draw any attention to it. If they cared that would have made a statement by now. Their strategy is to sweep it under the rug and hope that it will go away. I suspect it will grow however and at some point it will be difficult to ignore. Let's hope that this happens before the scene is too damaged to recover.
I don't think you understand how much Kespa limits MVP's options.
On April 21 2015 11:43 Brutaxilos wrote: Honest question. If a player were to agree to match-fix but ultimately ended up winning, how would he be punished by the betters?
Like if MarineKing really did agree to match-fix but was given a free win. Would the match-betters (dunno the formal term) find some way to fine him? Or would he just not get the match-fixing money.
I'm guessing these match-fixers aren't some kind of mafia who will track down players and jump them. What are players usually scared of besides their want for money.
Seeing as how it's illegal, I don't see how a formal fine could even be assigned, unless the people wanted to shake him down and threaten him with exposure. I wouldn't be surprised if things got pretty serious and emotional for a lot of people... big bets could be on the line, and people could lose a lot of money.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
With all due respect though, there are very few of us who could truly see ourselves in MKP's position. You visualizing how you would have reacted (or not reacted) isn't necessarily the same as how a top tier progamer would approach the same thing., let alone with the level of tournament experience and exposure as MKP.
Well thats pretty nice, you can matchfix in sc2 all you want and nothing will ever happen - a betting line can move to 1.001 odds for a bo1, plus a match can look like a complete throw with a horrible acting on top - but as long as you say "no, i didnt do it" - you are golden. You will even get shielded by a majory of the community. Easy money, easy life.
Also i cant really believe that "statement" had enough power to sway some % of the people to the "there was zero evidence anyway" side. Jesus christ people, really?
On April 21 2015 11:43 Brutaxilos wrote: Honest question. If a player were to agree to match-fix but ultimately ended up winning, how would he be punished by the betters?
Like if MarineKing really did agree to match-fix but was given a free win. Would the match-betters (dunno the formal term) find some way to fine him? Or would he just not get the match-fixing money.
I'm guessing these match-fixers aren't some kind of mafia who will track down players and jump them. What are players usually scared of besides their want for money.
From what I have heard: The illegal betting scene in general is huge in korea. How big the sc2 part of it is i don't know. It's certainly possible that there is a kind of mafia behind it that would pressure the player. Maybe the player also has to pay a security fee that he gets back if he loses. I don't know.
On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote: Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public?
Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it
Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly?
Kespa could also just make an exception to their rule and release it. That's not what they want. They clearly don't want to draw any attention to it. If kespa cared thay would have made a statement by now. Their strategy is to sweep it under the rug and hope that it will go away. I suspect it will grow however and at some point it will be difficult to ignore. Let's hope that this happens before the scene is too damaged to recover.
Edit: clarified they=kespa
you do realize what happened with BW and how they punished the players who were caught right?
So I see a tweet from a rep from MVP on the first page where they said he did and in the first post they say he didn't. What's happening?
I also see no updates on the investigation. If anyone should be doing a proper investigation like before it would be the police. Not some journalist.
On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote: Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public?
Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it
Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly?
Kespa could also just make an exception to their rule and release it. That's not what they want. They clearly don't want to draw any attention to it. If kespa cared thay would have made a statement by now. Their strategy is to sweep it under the rug and hope that it will go away. I suspect it will grow however and at some point it will be difficult to ignore. Let's hope that this happens before the scene is too damaged to recover.
Edit: clarified they=kespa
you do realize what happened with BW and how they punished the players who were caught right?
So I see a tweet from a rep from MVP on the first page where they said he did and in the first post they say he didn't. What's happening?
I also see no updates on the investigation. If anyone should be doing a proper investigation like before it would be the police. Not some journalist.
The MVP coach says he is innocent.
I have no idea what happened in bw. That was before my time here. I only heard that the betting scandal was obvious for a while and when they finally did something the damage was already done. But correct me if i am wrong. that's just what i read in the recent threads here.
For the police to be involved there has to be a complaint. I am not a Korean citizen. I am not sure if someone even formed an offical complaint.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
Unfortunately you dont know much about the betting lines and probability theory to have your opinion really count on the matter.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
Having played in lan tournaments at a decent amateur level and years of gaming (I even played LAN showmatches vs Nada and herO where I was shaking with nerves). I've made collossal fuckups in game due to nerves/mental breakdowns but they're split second mistakes, reacting in a retarded way or not reacting for 5-10 seconds to something on the minimap (still really bad) but I've never come close to what MKP did. Anyone decent at the game won't miss something for that long. It's just not conceivable that a progamer of MKP's calibre can not react to something on the minimap for 30 seconds, let alone over a minute, with no natural going up on a map where the dot is beside his destructible back door. The game itself is damning, the betting lines are damning. Fanboyism/naivety is the only thing stopping people from seeing what 99.9% happened. The fixed BW games weren't nearly as obvious as this one.
As for the overlord argument. Overlords disappear in fog of war, any decent player knows instantly that it's a building once it sticks on the map outside of his vision.
On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote: Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public?
Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it
Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly?
Kespa could also just make an exception to their rule and release it. That's not what they want. They clearly don't want to draw any attention to it. If kespa cared thay would have made a statement by now. Their strategy is to sweep it under the rug and hope that it will go away. I suspect it will grow however and at some point it will be difficult to ignore. Let's hope that this happens before the scene is too damaged to recover.
Edit: clarified they=kespa
you do realize what happened with BW and how they punished the players who were caught right?
So I see a tweet from a rep from MVP on the first page where they said he did and in the first post they say he didn't. What's happening?
I also see no updates on the investigation. If anyone should be doing a proper investigation like before it would be the police. Not some journalist.
The MVP coach says he is innocent.
I have no idea what happened in bw. That was before my time here. I only heard that the betting scandal was obvious for a while and when they finally did something the damage was already done. But correct me if i am wrong. that's just what i read in the recent threads here.
For the police to be involved there has to be a complaint. I am not a Korean citizen. I am not sure if someone even formed an offical complaint.
Well you might want to look it up then because KeSPA took that shit very seriously. It gave the whole scene a big black eye and was just one variable in transition mode. Some people might say what they did like erasing certain records a little too far.
I think it's interesting that if there were a lot of KeSPA players accused of such things that they wouldn't follow the same procedures with regards to what happened before.
In any case folks. Match fixing scandals, betting, cheating etc. isn't going to go away anytime soon. A lot of your so called idols were guilty of doing such things too. People do stupid shit when they're young and don't think the better. Considering a lot of the amateur foreigners and Koreans are somewhat young and the fact they weren't making a whole lot of money back then-- I'm sure it's a little better now if you're in the 2 percent of the decent. Meh.
But I cannot understand your statement. When you talk about degeneration do you mean his emotionality? Because I always thought this was a sign that MKP was serious about the games he played. Not sure why you think that a gamer with such a mentality was predestined to matchfix.
I am always getting puzzled why people assume that MKP is somehow less likely to matchfix. Just like Kane said "If anyone would matchfix, i am not surprised if it would be MarineKing".
I mean, the guy was good once, then became irrelevant, moved to LoL for money - failed, "came back" to sc2 - failed too, pretty much cant win against anyone anymore, dont have any shot of ever even placing top8 or so in a tournament.
And somehow that makes him "immune" to matchfixing in the eyes of some people.
I am not talking about you specifically, just in general.
I think if pinnacle would offer betting lines on "which sc2 player would be exposed in matchfixing" - MKP would be a pretty decent favorite actually.
I mean, it's suspicious as fuck, and we as a community should keep a close eye on MarineKing but I also believe that the MVP team has a lot to lose in this situation if they are wrong about him being guilty; and for that reason, I choose to believe they are making what they believe is the right call and I will stand by them.
MKP's fake surprise reaction really just gives it away, in combination with the spine having been on his minimap for the previous minute, him not looking around with reapers, and the creep having been at his cc for a couple seconds.
On April 21 2015 12:54 Doodsmack wrote: MKP's fake surprise reaction really just gives it away, in combination with the spine having been on his minimap for the previous minute, him not looking around with reapers, and the creep having been at his cc for a couple seconds.
Doesnt really matter, if the combination of the most suspicious game ever plus the betting line is barely enough to convince about the 25% of the community at best - the matchfixing trend will continue.
But I cannot understand your statement. When you talk about degeneration do you mean his emotionality? Because I always thought this was a sign that MKP was serious about the games he played. Not sure why you think that a gamer with such a mentality was predestined to matchfix.
I am always getting puzzled why people assume that MKP is somehow less likely to matchfix. Just like Kane said "If anyone would matchfix, i am not surprised if it would be MarineKing".
I mean, the guy was good once, then became irrelevant, moved to LoL for money - failed, "came back" to sc2 - failed too, pretty much cant win against anyone anymore, dont have any shot of ever even placing top8 or so in a tournament.
And somehow that makes him "immune" to matchfixing in the eyes of some people.
I am not talking about you specifically, just in general.
I think if pinnacle would offer betting lines on "which sc2 player would be exposed in matchfixing" - MKP would be a pretty decent favorite actually.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
Unfortunately you dont know much about the betting lines and probability theory to have your opinion really count on the matter.
its always cute to see random forum users dictating whose opinion does and does not matter.
Burden of proof remains, indisputable. If you can't prove it then its nothing more than a witchhunt. The best thing that can be done here is to encourage KeSPA to perform an investigation of their own, internet detectives on TL and Reddit aren't going to get shit done other than further antagonizing people and wasting everyones time.
Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie? His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does. The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Edit: also +1 to TB; innocent until proven guilty, worthless accusations aren't doing anything.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
Unfortunately you dont know much about the betting lines and probability theory to have your opinion really count on the matter.
its always cute to see random forum users dictating whose opinion does and does not matter.
Burden of proof remains, indisputable. If you can't prove it then its nothing more than a witchhunt.
There is a lot of room between an indisputably proven allegation and an uninformed witch hunt. Why do people always feel like they have to pick sides and argue extremes?
The best thing that can be done here is to encourage KeSPA to perform an investigation of their own, internet detectives on TL and Reddit aren't going to get shit done other than further antagonizing people and wasting everyones time.
Totally agree. Yet sometimes it takes internet detectives and public pressure to get something official going. It is not like KeSPA has been very forthcoming with information on this.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
With all due respect though, there are very few of us who could truly see ourselves in MKP's position. You visualizing how you would have reacted (or not reacted) isn't necessarily the same as how a top tier progamer would approach the same thing., let alone with the level of tournament experience and exposure as MKP.
Right but the point is it isn't exactly inconceivable to legitimately make such a mistake. Even as a pro gamer such lapses can occur, it's the nature of being human.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
With all due respect though, there are very few of us who could truly see ourselves in MKP's position. You visualizing how you would have reacted (or not reacted) isn't necessarily the same as how a top tier progamer would approach the same thing., let alone with the level of tournament experience and exposure as MKP.
Right but the point is it isn't exactly inconceivable to legitimately make such a mistake. Even as a pro gamer such lapses can occur, it's the nature of being human.
He did not have vision of the "overlord" spot with any of his units for over a minute. He would have realized that.
On April 21 2015 11:50 maGicc wrote: Well thats pretty nice, you can matchfix in sc2 all you want and nothing will ever happen - a betting line can move to 1.001 odds for a bo1, plus a match can look like a complete throw with a horrible acting on top - but as long as you say "no, i didnt do it" - you are golden. You will even get shielded by a majory of the community. Easy money, easy life.
Also i cant really believe that "statement" had enough power to sway some % of the people to the "there was zero evidence anyway" side. Jesus christ people, really?
Huh? It seems clear from this thread + the other that the majority of the community thinks he was match fixing or simply unconvinced... he isn't being "shielded by a majority of the community"...?
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
Thank you. There's a lot of new posters here that seem to think that TeamLiquid posters are being harsh for no reason. Unfortunately, a lot of the older posters at TL have seen this happen before, when one of the best players in Brood War history threw matches and brought down many others with him. There are a lot of coincidences, like Rekrul (who knows more than anyone else in this topic) informing us about what's going on in both cases.
Nobody wants to see stuff like this happen, but there's no reason to be mad about anyone expecting the worst, because things sure don't look good.
Just purely out of interest, because I don't know anything about the BW scandal other than reading a few things about it. I thought that it wasn't ever proved that Savior actually match fixed himself; he just was the coordinator? Or am I wrong
Both. Just search 마재윤 승부조작 in YouTube for some of his thrown matches (mainly ZvZ games)
It's kind of sad hearing about these match fixes. It's a sign showing how desperate people have become due to sc2 slow decent. Id like to think that if the teams were in better positions they wouldn't resort to petty methods to stay a float. As a player I am very disappointing and left feeling very unsatisfied, as a human I understand that when times get tough you gotta do what you gotta do and that's fine as long as you're not hurting other people.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
With all due respect though, there are very few of us who could truly see ourselves in MKP's position. You visualizing how you would have reacted (or not reacted) isn't necessarily the same as how a top tier progamer would approach the same thing., let alone with the level of tournament experience and exposure as MKP.
Right but the point is it isn't exactly inconceivable to legitimately make such a mistake. Even as a pro gamer such lapses can occur, it's the nature of being human.
He did not have vision of the "overlord" spot with any of his units for over a minute. He would have realized that.
It seems to me if you have already instantaneously assumed that it is an overlord you would totally ignore it; your focus would move on to everything else from then on and the thought that it is actually out of vision range would never occur. At least for me there is a disconnect - once my mind instantly assumes something like that and I deem it unimportant I will never pay an ounce of attention to it or think about it again. I guess most people's minds don't work like this judging by the reactions.
he didnt match fix. even before this, he released on his twitter (i think, it was on naver.com. basically korean google) that he was just really sucked at that match .
I recall in WoL that they showed a heat map of where the players' eyes were over the course of the game. Too bad this wasn't implemented wholly in tournaments. There would still be some questions that may not be totally put to rest, but it would resolve some of them.
In the end, people will have their opinions. Some who have spoken out quite bluntly even are well informed of the players, situation, etc.
I understand how data driven mechanics can be used to explain statistical oddities in games. The math is not as horrifying as people would seem to think. But, anybody that knows anything about math will tell you that you must stay objective when interpreting the results. This is where bettors (and bookers to a lesser degree) generally fail in there assessment of the results. They are almost always subjective.
Having those like Wolf that just starts with 'He threw' is pleasant in its frankness, but pretty damn lackluster as a convincing argument. Furthermore making assessments of 'never seen him look like that before', etc. does not lead to definitive guilt. Judging people's reactions in those situations is not as simple or as clean as 'you' or psychologists want to think.
Those that have a really hard time buying he didn't notice it for WAY too long are probably the most on point. It does seems ridicululously long. Even conceding the overlord vs spine issue, it seems questionable judgement to seemingly not react at that level...but i have seen a number of ladder games from high level folks that miss things just as bad about 1 in 50 games...like 'where the hell is my baneling speed? oh hell, hydra range...that would have been good to have now when i clicked the damn thing 100 seconds ago (oh and they looked right at the hydra den...twice), etc'
Granted, these are often not the top tier of the pros, but most of these folks can be found the right side of the screen. tldr: should have stopped at the first line.
everyone is putting their torch under the players asses. But if all those better were put in lightless deep holes and left there to rot the problem would be cut at the source. Betters and betting sites are a fucking plague.
There is zero explanation for anything MKP did that game, every single action was fishy. Add to it the suspicious betting line, there is really a lot of hard evidence that he match fixed, and if you don't see it then you are naive.
On April 21 2015 13:09 Charoisaur wrote: Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie?
Well...why wouldn't he? If he is guilty, then it's highly unlikely that he'd just admit to it outright.
His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does.
Why should it convince us? MVP says almost nothing about what their reasoning was, and they're not exactly unbiased in this matter. He's one of their players, and it looks bad if he's guilty.
The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Far more than half of us aren't on the same level of skill as MKP. There's a big difference between some amateur player not noticing something on their minimap, and an experienced pro, especially when it's the early game and literally NOTHING is happening. Not to metion the fact that MKP's scouting showed that something fishy had to be happening.
On April 21 2015 14:19 GGzerG wrote: A little confused umm.....I think it is pretty obvious it was fixed
a lot of things in sc2 are really obvious but almost impossible to prove 100%, this includes match fixing, the suspiciously funded korean tournaments, winter's viewbots (until really recently), the girls who got boosted to gm, etc.
as TB said it's about burden of proof, most of the time the amount of evidence just isn't enough to say without a doubt that someone is guilty of misconduct.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
Having played in lan tournaments at a decent amateur level and years of gaming (I even played LAN showmatches vs Nada and herO where I was shaking with nerves). I've made collossal fuckups in game due to nerves/mental breakdowns but they're split second mistakes, reacting in a retarded way or not reacting for 5-10 seconds to something on the minimap (still really bad) but I've never come close to what MKP did. Anyone decent at the game won't miss something for that long. It's just not conceivable that a progamer of MKP's calibre can not react to something on the minimap for 30 seconds, let alone over a minute, with no natural going up on a map where the dot is beside his destructible back door. The game itself is damning, the betting lines are damning. Fanboyism/naivety is the only thing stopping people from seeing what 99.9% happened. The fixed BW games weren't nearly as obvious as this one.
As for the overlord argument. Overlords disappear in fog of war, any decent player knows instantly that it's a building once it sticks on the map outside of his vision.
and any decent player knows a forge is needed for a cannon rush.
Christ people. It seems like you wanted him to have really lost the match on purpose the way you are writing. Be happy that Marineking can still play and he had a bad day. Bloody pitch fork community
On April 21 2015 13:09 Charoisaur wrote: Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie? His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does. The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Edit: also +1 to TB; innocent until proven guilty, worthless accusations aren't doing anything.
Yeah dude, I bet his mom thinks he's innocent too, so he's pretty solid!
Jesus, if your post is not sarcasm, then no wonder things like this can happen.
On April 21 2015 11:42 SnowStormer wrote: MK, a player infamous for cracking under pressure - often pressure he himself created - lost a game badly. Which he does often, which people know.
At best all thats been presented was a plausible scenario.
I don't even understand people like you, who straight out refuses to even mention the suspicious betting. What's the point? Why even bother posting? Imagine if everyone mysteriously "forgot" relevant stuff from the story, and people were arguing here whether MKP even played that day or not, haha.
After reading through this thread, I'm actually more disappointed in people in general for making BS posts like these, than in MKP. At least he could have reasons I can get behind, like being short on money - still not makes him innocent, obviously -, but fanboyism is no excuse for making posts like these, which eject common sense.
On April 21 2015 13:09 Charoisaur wrote: Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie? His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does. The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Edit: also +1 to TB; innocent until proven guilty, worthless accusations aren't doing anything.
Yeah dude, I bet his mom thinks he's innocent too, so he's pretty solid!
Jesus, if your post is not sarcasm, then no wonder things like this can happen.
On April 21 2015 11:42 SnowStormer wrote: MK, a player infamous for cracking under pressure - often pressure he himself created - lost a game badly. Which he does often, which people know.
At best all thats been presented was a plausible scenario.
I don't even understand people like you, who straight out refuses to even mention the suspicious betting. What's the point? Why even bother posting? Imagine if everyone mysteriously "forgot" relevant stuff from the story, and people were arguing here whether MKP even played that day or not, haha.
After reading through this thread, I'm actually more disappointed in people in general for making BS posts like these, than in MKP. At least he could have reasons I can get behind, like being short on money - still not makes him innocent, obviously -, but fanboyism is no excuse for making posts like these, which eject common sense.
/rant
because frankly the suspicious betting is irrelevant and doesn't prove anything.
On April 21 2015 13:09 Charoisaur wrote: Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie? His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does. The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Edit: also +1 to TB; innocent until proven guilty, worthless accusations aren't doing anything.
Yeah dude, I bet his mom thinks he's innocent too, so he's pretty solid!
Jesus, if your post is not sarcasm, then no wonder things like this can happen.
On April 21 2015 11:42 SnowStormer wrote: MK, a player infamous for cracking under pressure - often pressure he himself created - lost a game badly. Which he does often, which people know.
At best all thats been presented was a plausible scenario.
I don't even understand people like you, who straight out refuses to even mention the suspicious betting. What's the point? Why even bother posting? Imagine if everyone mysteriously "forgot" relevant stuff from the story, and people were arguing here whether MKP even played that day or not, haha.
After reading through this thread, I'm actually more disappointed in people in general for making BS posts like these, than in MKP. At least he could have reasons I can get behind, like being short on money - still not makes him innocent, obviously -, but fanboyism is no excuse for making posts like these, which eject common sense.
/rant
because frankly the suspicious betting is irrelevant and doesn't prove anything.
How is it irrelevant? It is exactly what makes a rare, but not unheard of blunder into something more than suspicious.
On April 21 2015 13:09 Charoisaur wrote: Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie? His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does. The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Edit: also +1 to TB; innocent until proven guilty, worthless accusations aren't doing anything.
Yeah dude, I bet his mom thinks he's innocent too, so he's pretty solid!
Jesus, if your post is not sarcasm, then no wonder things like this can happen.
On April 21 2015 11:42 SnowStormer wrote: MK, a player infamous for cracking under pressure - often pressure he himself created - lost a game badly. Which he does often, which people know.
At best all thats been presented was a plausible scenario.
I don't even understand people like you, who straight out refuses to even mention the suspicious betting. What's the point? Why even bother posting? Imagine if everyone mysteriously "forgot" relevant stuff from the story, and people were arguing here whether MKP even played that day or not, haha.
After reading through this thread, I'm actually more disappointed in people in general for making BS posts like these, than in MKP. At least he could have reasons I can get behind, like being short on money - still not makes him innocent, obviously -, but fanboyism is no excuse for making posts like these, which eject common sense.
/rant
because frankly the suspicious betting is irrelevant and doesn't prove anything.
Not proof, but don't you think irrelevant is a bit of a stretch?
On April 21 2015 15:01 Dodgin wrote: So many naive people in this thread, and here I thought TL members were mostly smart people
I guess blind fanboyism gets the best of us all.
Personally I don't mind MKP fans being hopeful, there is no 100% definitive proof (which would be he admitting it), so I don't expect them to not be guided by their hearts, but the dismissal of such an important anomaly like the suspicious betting, or legitimately believing that if a team is defending it's star player, then we are stupid for not believing it, is just beyond me.
and it's that exact logic that makes it impossible to take your position seriously. the betting doesn't prove anything it certainly doesn't make a not unheard of error look suspicious. when the much easier explanation that mkp is his own worst enemy and bettors were willing to bet on that again being the case, has much more evidence and proof backing it up.
On April 21 2015 13:09 Charoisaur wrote: Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie? His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does. The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Edit: also +1 to TB; innocent until proven guilty, worthless accusations aren't doing anything.
Yeah dude, I bet his mom thinks he's innocent too, so he's pretty solid!
Jesus, if your post is not sarcasm, then no wonder things like this can happen.
On April 21 2015 11:42 SnowStormer wrote: MK, a player infamous for cracking under pressure - often pressure he himself created - lost a game badly. Which he does often, which people know.
At best all thats been presented was a plausible scenario.
I don't even understand people like you, who straight out refuses to even mention the suspicious betting. What's the point? Why even bother posting? Imagine if everyone mysteriously "forgot" relevant stuff from the story, and people were arguing here whether MKP even played that day or not, haha.
After reading through this thread, I'm actually more disappointed in people in general for making BS posts like these, than in MKP. At least he could have reasons I can get behind, like being short on money - still not makes him innocent, obviously -, but fanboyism is no excuse for making posts like these, which eject common sense.
/rant
because frankly the suspicious betting is irrelevant and doesn't prove anything.
Not proof, but don't you think irrelevant is a bit of a stretch?
yeah a bit of one but I am annoyed at his attitude and I tend to over state my self when that happens
On April 21 2015 15:06 magicallypuzzled wrote: and it's that exactly logic that makes it impossible to take your position seriously. the betting doesn't prove anything it certainly doesn't make a not unheard of error look suspicious. when the much easier explanation that mkp is his own worst enemy and bettors were willing to bet on that again being the case, has much more evidence and proof backing it up.
Except it is an unheard of error. Look through the threads to see the posts from people who actually understand the game or watch the talk shows(remax) that discussed it. The errors is the whole reason this specific match is receiving more attention than the other voided ones.
Happy to finally see the statement! What has bothered me wasn't that they didn't make one, but that they promised me one and never posted it.
As for the statement itself, it's about what I expected.
"But at the very end, all evidence gave us the same answer – Lee was not matchfixing."
Would love it if MVP could explain what evidence they found. Obviously we have no proof of anything as of now, but the circumstantial evidence clearly points towards MarineKing matchfixing.
I don't know where to take this from now. Best thing would be if Kespa said anything about it I guess, but they never will.
On April 21 2015 15:06 magicallypuzzled wrote: and it's that exactly logic that makes it impossible to take your position seriously. the betting doesn't prove anything it certainly doesn't make a not unheard of error look suspicious. when the much easier explanation that mkp is his own worst enemy and bettors were willing to bet on that again being the case, has much more evidence and proof backing it up.
Except it is an unheard of error. Look through the threads to see the posts from people who actually understand the game or watch the talk shows(remax) that discussed it. The errors is the whole reason this specific match is receiving more attention than the other voided ones.
I used his words and frankly it really isn't any more than some one cannon rushing without a forge or forgetting a important upgrade or any of a hundred stupid mistakes people make and that's with out getting into the doozies mkp has done him self like the unheard of mistake of nuking his own army.
mkp is trash he's always been trash and he doesn't need match fixing to throw something in a totally retarded way.
if you walk into a pigsty and there is something that looks like a pig, smells like a pig and sounds like a pig, it´s a fucking pig. not the farmer preparing himself for a costume party. you don´t really need a pig scientist for confirmation.
On April 21 2015 15:06 magicallypuzzled wrote: and it's that exactly logic that makes it impossible to take your position seriously. the betting doesn't prove anything it certainly doesn't make a not unheard of error look suspicious. when the much easier explanation that mkp is his own worst enemy and bettors were willing to bet on that again being the case, has much more evidence and proof backing it up.
Except it is an unheard of error. Look through the threads to see the posts from people who actually understand the game or watch the talk shows(remax) that discussed it. The errors is the whole reason this specific match is receiving more attention than the other voided ones.
I used his words and frankly it really isn't any more than some one cannon rushing without a forge or forgetting a important upgrade or any of a hundred stupid mistakes people make and that's with out getting into the doozies mkp has done him self like the unheard of mistake of nuking his own army.
mkp is trash he's always been trash and he doesn't need match fixing to throw something in a totally retarded way.
No this was a way bigger error. Forgetting a forge is just that - forgetting a forge.
When you scout and opponent and see no natural, late pool and late gas, you process that information. Any masters+ level player, let alone a pro, will realize that there's a hatchery out somewhere on the map. They will also realize at what time pool will be done and when fastest possible ling speed is done.
As a player to then not process this information and instead make a deliberate decision not to scout with your reaper is unheard of. It's completely crazy. The only reason a player wouldn't do it if they were high on something (as in drugs) or if they didn't want to find the proxy hatchery.
This was the big mistake in the match. Then not seeing buildings and creep on the minimap makes this even more likely to be a thrown game, but things like that could be a mistake (and something MarineKing is kinda known for).
I assume most of the matchfixing going on isn't this obvious, since the best way to throw a game is obviously to do it subtle. Now since MarineKing screwed up, scouting something he didn't expect, it got almost comical. If he had lost like he was supposed to, he would've just been another suspect like San, Inno, Soulkey etc. where we can't prove or even highly suspect anything.
On April 21 2015 15:22 Wormi wrote: if you walk into a pigsty and there is something that looks like a pig, smells like a pig and sounds like a pig, it´s a fucking pig. not the farmer preparing himself for a costume party. you don´t really need a pig scientist for confirmation.
i´m done with the korean starcraft scene.
don't complain about looking like an idiot when it turns out to not be a pig though
also your scenario is rather poor it's more like getting a long distance look at some thing that looks like a real pig and there are sounds of a real pig in the area. but your still assuming it's a pig before you get a real look at it.
On April 21 2015 15:06 magicallypuzzled wrote: and it's that exactly logic that makes it impossible to take your position seriously. the betting doesn't prove anything it certainly doesn't make a not unheard of error look suspicious. when the much easier explanation that mkp is his own worst enemy and bettors were willing to bet on that again being the case, has much more evidence and proof backing it up.
Wait, let me make it clear. You are saying that people just had a gut feeling that this game he will surely slip, so let's just raise the usual bets by a lot. It could've been his previous game, or the game before that, or... but no, betting people that day just woke up with that feeling simultaneously. John was drinking his morning coffee, Jane was washing her hair, Jason was jogging around the block, and they all just thought "screw this, for this game, imma throw in a couple thousand more!". That's like a miracle in itself, but someone must've had a goldfish, because it did not stop there. For some reason MKP did slip up big time. It can happen, yes, you are saying the same thing since the early pages, yes, people forgot forges, yes, we get it, but for some reason MKP forgot his forge on this already miraculous day. And then even the caster remarks MKP's strange behavior. This guy casted MKP before and probably watched a hell lotta game from him, it's his job after all to keep himself updated, but for some magical reason, he found him strange in this exact game.
Your conclusion? Innocent for sure, and you don't even know why does this thing require it's own thread to begin with. I mean, someone cannon rushed without a forge once.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
With all due respect though, there are very few of us who could truly see ourselves in MKP's position. You visualizing how you would have reacted (or not reacted) isn't necessarily the same as how a top tier progamer would approach the same thing., let alone with the level of tournament experience and exposure as MKP.
Right but the point is it isn't exactly inconceivable to legitimately make such a mistake. Even as a pro gamer such lapses can occur, it's the nature of being human.
He did not have vision of the "overlord" spot with any of his units for over a minute. He would have realized that.
Not only that, but the creep would have been on his minimap (unless they changed that since I played). So a red blip plus a dark area on his minimap...
On April 21 2015 14:46 Quixotic_tv wrote: Again: Please prove that he cheated. As suspicious as it is, there is no proof. Still.
I am totally disappointed by Hot_bid, by the way.
In the strictest sense you are correct that there's no proof here.
But let's take a step back and look at everything we have here:
You have Pinnacle voiding several bets Two sources in the Korean scene reporting that match-fixing is an open secret (both people vouched for by admins as trustworthy individuals) A game where multiple pro's (Welmu, Huk, Kane to name a few) have publicly weighed in that this just isn't the kind of mistake someone can conceivably make. And of course actual fixed matches in Starcraft history (not just Broodwar, but in SC2 all the way from little Korean online cups to a recent WCS too).
So no, there's no lock-solid proof that MKP fixed this match, but we can be pretty sure that matches are being fixed and this seems the most likely game so far.
On April 21 2015 15:06 magicallypuzzled wrote: and it's that exactly logic that makes it impossible to take your position seriously. the betting doesn't prove anything it certainly doesn't make a not unheard of error look suspicious. when the much easier explanation that mkp is his own worst enemy and bettors were willing to bet on that again being the case, has much more evidence and proof backing it up.
Wait, let me make it clear. You are saying that people just had a gut feeling that this game he will surely slip, so let's just raise the usual bets by a lot. It could've been his previous game, or the game before that, or... but no, betting people that day just woke up with that feeling simultaneously. John was drinking his morning coffee, Jane was washing her hair, Jason was jogging around the block, and they all just thought "screw this, for this game, imma throw in a couple thousand more!". That's like a miracle in itself, but someone must've had a goldfish, because it did not stop there. For some reason MKP did slip up big time. It can happen, yes, you are saying the same thing since the early pages, yes, people forgot forges, yes, we get it, but for some reason MKP forgot his forge on this already miraculous day. And then even the caster remarks MKP's strange behavior. This guy casted MKP before and probably watched a hell lotta game from him, it's his job after all to keep himself updated, but for some magical reason, he found him strange in this exact game.
Your conclusion? Innocent for sure, and you don't even know why does this thing require it's own thread to begin with. I mean, someone cannon rushed without a forge once.
I suppose ignorance is bliss.
actually no my position from the very beginning has been it seems highly likely to be match fixing and if I were in a position of authority i'd make sure it was investigated. but since I am not I need 100 percent proof before I either A. assume it is match fixing or B. treat anyone assuming it's match fixing as with even a gram of legitimacy.
that said with more time to think about it the probability of mkp choking as he so often does has started to seem more likely to me than match fixing i'd still have it investigated though.
It is about 4 weeks ago since people assumed there was a matchfixing between ByuL and MarineKing.
Yeah, it's about time
And directly after the game a part of the folk judged kinda fast and submitted that MarineKing did matchfixing. But it is not always the way as it looks like. Yet we took this allegedly incident very seriously since we have never ever accepted cheating and MarineKing is one of our players what makes the allegation not better in any way.
Ooooh, so MVP takes matchfixing very seriously. Who would have thought.
We have never stopped trusting Lee and we could not image that he had tried to cheat, that’s why we asked MKP firstly if all these allegations could be true - and he was clearly in making his position, so he emphasized that he didn't matchfixed. For us it was enough
Taking lessons from history and from SaviOr, I see.
but in this case we felt that it could be insufficient, especially when you have to give an explanation to community.
Aaaaah, top3 reasoning right there.
We took charge of the game and tried to understand exactly the circumstance, not only by checking the replay again and again but also by having some serious talks. We also kinda grilled MarineKing several times, that's why he didn't play in Proleague for a while. But at the very end, all evidence gave us the same answer – Lee was not matchfixing.
Interesting. How about doing a bit more than checking a replay over and over again (rofl) and asking the suspect if he's guilty?
Surely, it was a questionable game but was it matchfixing? Definitely not! Having a bad game or even a bad period of time is humanly. We won't suspend a player by an accusation
Makes sense
, which was finally proved wrong
When? How? It isn't "proved wrong". It is "not proved true".
, and destroy his career. And if we take a close view on MarineKing's match history, he hasn't won a few Proleague games recently, so it makes it even more unlikely that he did.
How about his pre-game and in-game behavior, which was wildly different than in his previous matches?
Anyway, to make you understand MKP a little bit better: Lee is/was pressuring hisself a lot, because he wants to win so badly and he puts a lot of efforts and emotion into the game. And it makes it not easier for him if people have a very high expectation, which he wants to answer. In addition as team captain you have to carry an extra burden. Probably that’s the main reason why he didn’t perform as good lately. It is not always easy to be professional which concerns not only eSports and sometimes you need a little bit time and an helping hand to get up again.
For the upcoming season we decided that MKP will exchange the role as team captain with YongHwa, so MarineKing can focus more on his own play again. We keep believing in MarineKing, so we hope that you have not given him up as well. And hopfully he will be back with full strength for the next Proleague round.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
With all due respect though, there are very few of us who could truly see ourselves in MKP's position. You visualizing how you would have reacted (or not reacted) isn't necessarily the same as how a top tier progamer would approach the same thing., let alone with the level of tournament experience and exposure as MKP.
Right but the point is it isn't exactly inconceivable to legitimately make such a mistake. Even as a pro gamer such lapses can occur, it's the nature of being human.
He did not have vision of the "overlord" spot with any of his units for over a minute. He would have realized that.
Not only that, but the creep would have been on his minimap (unless they changed that since I played). So a red blip plus a dark area on his minimap...
On April 21 2015 14:46 Quixotic_tv wrote: Again: Please prove that he cheated. As suspicious as it is, there is no proof. Still.
I am totally disappointed by Hot_bid, by the way.
In the strictest sense you are correct that there's no proof here.
But let's take a step back and look at everything we have here:
You have Pinnacle voiding several bets Two sources in the Korean scene reporting that match-fixing is an open secret (both people vouched for by admins as trustworthy individuals) A game where multiple pro's (Welmu, Huk, Kane to name a few) have publicly weighed in that this just isn't the kind of mistake someone can conceivably make. And of course actual fixed matches in Starcraft history (not just Broodwar, but in SC2 all the way from little Korean online cups to a recent WCS too).
So no, there's no lock-solid proof that MKP fixed this match, but we can be pretty sure that matches are being fixed and this seems the most likely game so far.
Add to that several pro gamers (MMA, Solar) speaking about how they're getting harassed by people who want them to matchfix.
A lot of naievete in the thread but im glad we are having this discussion.
To mvp: if you truly want to exonerate your player you need to at a minimum do the following
Release the replay Interview w marineking with him explaining his thought process at key moments of the replay
Ideally a formal investigation into his chatlogs and finances but without police involvement thats impossible so at the very least id like to see the replay and mkp explaining his thought process to even consider the possibility this is some huge coincidence and hes somehow innocent
On April 21 2015 15:06 magicallypuzzled wrote: and it's that exactly logic that makes it impossible to take your position seriously. the betting doesn't prove anything it certainly doesn't make a not unheard of error look suspicious. when the much easier explanation that mkp is his own worst enemy and bettors were willing to bet on that again being the case, has much more evidence and proof backing it up.
Wait, let me make it clear. You are saying that people just had a gut feeling that this game he will surely slip, so let's just raise the usual bets by a lot. It could've been his previous game, or the game before that, or... but no, betting people that day just woke up with that feeling simultaneously. John was drinking his morning coffee, Jane was washing her hair, Jason was jogging around the block, and they all just thought "screw this, for this game, imma throw in a couple thousand more!". That's like a miracle in itself, but someone must've had a goldfish, because it did not stop there. For some reason MKP did slip up big time. It can happen, yes, you are saying the same thing since the early pages, yes, people forgot forges, yes, we get it, but for some reason MKP forgot his forge on this already miraculous day. And then even the caster remarks MKP's strange behavior. This guy casted MKP before and probably watched a hell lotta game from him, it's his job after all to keep himself updated, but for some magical reason, he found him strange in this exact game.
Your conclusion? Innocent for sure, and you don't even know why does this thing require it's own thread to begin with. I mean, someone cannon rushed without a forge once.
I suppose ignorance is bliss.
actually no my position from the very beginning has been it seems highly likely to be match fixing and if I were in a position of authority i'd make sure it was investigated. but since I am not I need 100 percent proof before I either A. assume it is match fixing or B. treat anyone assuming it's match fixing as with even a gram of legitimacy.
Then why are you fighting this so hard? Are you trying to make a point to not call someone guilty until it is 10000000000000000000% confirmed? If so, you chose a pretty poor case to make people understand it's not right.
On April 21 2015 15:36 Swoopae wrote: A lot of naievete in the thread but im glad we are having this discussion.
To mvp: if you truly want to exonerate your player you need to at a minimum do the following
Release the replay Interview w marineking with him explaining his thought process at key moments of the replay
Ideally a formal investigation into his chatlogs and finances but without police involvement thats impossible so at the very least id like to see the replay and mkp explaining his thought process to even consider the possibility this is some huge coincidence and hes somehow innocent
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
Having played in lan tournaments at a decent amateur level and years of gaming (I even played LAN showmatches vs Nada and herO where I was shaking with nerves). I've made collossal fuckups in game due to nerves/mental breakdowns but they're split second mistakes, reacting in a retarded way or not reacting for 5-10 seconds to something on the minimap (still really bad) but I've never come close to what MKP did. Anyone decent at the game won't miss something for that long. It's just not conceivable that a progamer of MKP's calibre can not react to something on the minimap for 30 seconds, let alone over a minute, with no natural going up on a map where the dot is beside his destructible back door. The game itself is damning, the betting lines are damning. Fanboyism/naivety is the only thing stopping people from seeing what 99.9% happened. The fixed BW games weren't nearly as obvious as this one.
As for the overlord argument. Overlords disappear in fog of war, any decent player knows instantly that it's a building once it sticks on the map outside of his vision.
and any decent player knows a forge is needed for a cannon rush.
Misplacing a building slightly or it getting blocked at the last minute so you think it started, but it didn't, can happen. I've done it and I've seen progamers do it. Not seeing a proxy building on the map for 75 seconds is not in the realm of possible mistakes and I've yet to see a pro say otherwise. Building two citadels is a dumb mistake, missing a nydus is bad, but this is more like allowing a 75 second nydus or building 10 citadels. The minimap is checked second by second and if he had a remotely decent alibi we'd have heard it by now.
On April 21 2015 15:36 Swoopae wrote: A lot of naievete in the thread but im glad we are having this discussion.
To mvp: if you truly want to exonerate your player you need to at a minimum do the following
Release the replay Interview w marineking with him explaining his thought process at key moments of the replay
Ideally a formal investigation into his chatlogs and finances but without police involvement thats impossible so at the very least id like to see the replay and mkp explaining his thought process to even consider the possibility this is some huge coincidence and hes somehow innocent
What are we trying to find in the replay?
I assume his FP view, it would be difficult to not flick across to see the dot as it appeared. His actions or inaction (apm irregularities) after it appears would also be telling.
On April 21 2015 15:06 magicallypuzzled wrote: and it's that exactly logic that makes it impossible to take your position seriously. the betting doesn't prove anything it certainly doesn't make a not unheard of error look suspicious. when the much easier explanation that mkp is his own worst enemy and bettors were willing to bet on that again being the case, has much more evidence and proof backing it up.
Wait, let me make it clear. You are saying that people just had a gut feeling that this game he will surely slip, so let's just raise the usual bets by a lot. It could've been his previous game, or the game before that, or... but no, betting people that day just woke up with that feeling simultaneously. John was drinking his morning coffee, Jane was washing her hair, Jason was jogging around the block, and they all just thought "screw this, for this game, imma throw in a couple thousand more!". That's like a miracle in itself, but someone must've had a goldfish, because it did not stop there. For some reason MKP did slip up big time. It can happen, yes, you are saying the same thing since the early pages, yes, people forgot forges, yes, we get it, but for some reason MKP forgot his forge on this already miraculous day. And then even the caster remarks MKP's strange behavior. This guy casted MKP before and probably watched a hell lotta game from him, it's his job after all to keep himself updated, but for some magical reason, he found him strange in this exact game.
Your conclusion? Innocent for sure, and you don't even know why does this thing require it's own thread to begin with. I mean, someone cannon rushed without a forge once.
I suppose ignorance is bliss.
actually no my position from the very beginning has been it seems highly likely to be match fixing and if I were in a position of authority i'd make sure it was investigated. but since I am not I need 100 percent proof before I either A. assume it is match fixing or B. treat anyone assuming it's match fixing as with even a gram of legitimacy.
Then why are you fighting this so hard? Are you trying to make a point to not call someone guilty until it is 10000000000000000000% confirmed? If so, you chose a pretty poor case to make people understand it's not right.
well I don't need to convince other people defending innocence until it's proven is still the right thing to do if anyone believes you or not
also sorry I edited my post after you quoted it with a cooler head I am less certain it's highly likely to be match fixing.
On April 21 2015 15:37 magicallypuzzled wrote: I love how multiple people have said mvp isn't allowed to release the replay yet people are still yelling at them to do it.
I think this thread would look very different if MVP's statement had "we would really like to show you the replay, which proves our player's innocence, but sadly, so far we could not convince kespa to release it. We will try everything we can to convince them the importance of this, so we can clean MKP's name once and for all!" in it, no?
On April 21 2015 15:06 magicallypuzzled wrote: and it's that exactly logic that makes it impossible to take your position seriously. the betting doesn't prove anything it certainly doesn't make a not unheard of error look suspicious. when the much easier explanation that mkp is his own worst enemy and bettors were willing to bet on that again being the case, has much more evidence and proof backing it up.
Wait, let me make it clear. You are saying that people just had a gut feeling that this game he will surely slip, so let's just raise the usual bets by a lot. It could've been his previous game, or the game before that, or... but no, betting people that day just woke up with that feeling simultaneously. John was drinking his morning coffee, Jane was washing her hair, Jason was jogging around the block, and they all just thought "screw this, for this game, imma throw in a couple thousand more!". That's like a miracle in itself, but someone must've had a goldfish, because it did not stop there. For some reason MKP did slip up big time. It can happen, yes, you are saying the same thing since the early pages, yes, people forgot forges, yes, we get it, but for some reason MKP forgot his forge on this already miraculous day. And then even the caster remarks MKP's strange behavior. This guy casted MKP before and probably watched a hell lotta game from him, it's his job after all to keep himself updated, but for some magical reason, he found him strange in this exact game.
Your conclusion? Innocent for sure, and you don't even know why does this thing require it's own thread to begin with. I mean, someone cannon rushed without a forge once.
I suppose ignorance is bliss.
actually no my position from the very beginning has been it seems highly likely to be match fixing and if I were in a position of authority i'd make sure it was investigated. but since I am not I need 100 percent proof before I either A. assume it is match fixing or B. treat anyone assuming it's match fixing as with even a gram of legitimacy.
Then why are you fighting this so hard? Are you trying to make a point to not call someone guilty until it is 10000000000000000000% confirmed? If so, you chose a pretty poor case to make people understand it's not right.
well I don't need to convince other people defending innocence until it's proven is still the right thing to do if anyone believes you or not
I don't think me (and others who believe MarineKing is guilty) want to judge him right here right now. We want an investigation by Kespa/Blizzard. Have someone who can actually do anything about it look into it and make a decision.
As it is, they are completely silent. It's very frustrating and obviously makes it look even more like there is matchfixing going on and no-one wants to deal with it (since it would hurt them in the short term). Better just to go full ostrich and see nothing.
On April 21 2015 15:37 magicallypuzzled wrote: I love how multiple people have said mvp isn't allowed to release the replay yet people are still yelling at them to do it.
I think this thread would look very different if MVP's statement had "we would really like to show you the replay, which proves our player's innocence, but sadly, so far we could not convince kespa to release it. We will try everything we can to convince them the importance of this, so we can clean MKP's name once and for all!" in it, no?
Well they only had 4 weeks to prepare it, can't expect too much
Real problem with "there is no proof, give proof of fixing" point of vue is that: how people are supposed to find any proof if no material is released to NEUTRAL investigation?
How can the police do its job if they have no mean to investigate a crime scene? It's like "We received a phone call of pinnacle saying they see their neighboor wife is being stabbed to death. Then walking by, we found some blood on the ground, but when we knocked the door, we met the neighboor husband who stated that nothing happened, so we did not push any investigation further, there was no murder."
Anyway, I assume no neutral source will ever be able to analyse the replay nor scan MKP personnal computer for messaging services history, so whatever, this case is closed, nothing else will happen.
Do you think it would be a good marketing ploy for kespa to charge full force at matchfixing, and as first steps, destroy a few (guilty) players to show they are serious? Or is digging their head in the sand actually more beneficial?
On April 21 2015 15:46 Volband wrote: Do you think it would be a good marketing ploy for kespa to charge full force at matchfixing, and as first steps, destroy a few (guilty) players to show they are serious? Or is digging their head in the sand actually more beneficial?
I'd say it's more beneficial for Kespa until it's revealed, after which is less beneficial. So if it's never uncovered, this strategy is better for them.
On April 21 2015 15:31 magicallypuzzled wrote: actually no my position from the very beginning has been it seems highly likely to be match fixing [...]
I get the impression that the discussion in this thread is mostly about whether the probability that MKP match fixed is 90%, 99%, 99.9% or 99.999999%, and exactly how much you are allowed to dust off your pitchforks at these probabilities.
I think very few think that fixing is unlikely, say below 10%, or that the probability is a mathematical exact 100% (lolz) when they really think about it and understand the evidence, even though it may seem that way when the discussion get a bit heated. People that come in with an opinion before understanding evidence should probably be politely directed to a post explaining the betting evidence in a bit more detail, rather than flamed.
So I guess a few more relevant question are 1) How should we treat MKP? Cheer for him as if nothing happened? Shun him like the plague? Something in between? 2) Can we encourage parties in power (KESPA, korean police, more? blizzard?) to take action in any way? Such as launching investigations for example. Do we even want action to be taken? 3) What options do we, as the community of watchers, have to take action if nothing happens, and these suspicious events continue? Stop watching? Spam sponsors? Pretend nothing happens? Accept the situation and add liquibets on which games will get canceled by pinnacle?
I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake.
On April 21 2015 15:46 EvilsPresley wrote: Real problem with "there is no proof, give proof of fixing" point of vue is that: how people are supposed to find any proof if no material is released to NEUTRAL investigation?
How can the police do its job if they have no mean to investigate a crime scene? It's like "We received a phone call of pinnacle saying they see their neighboor wife is being stabbed to death. Then walking by, we found some blood on the ground, but when we knocked the door, we met the neighboor husband who stated that nothing happened, so we did not push any investigation further, there was no murder."
Anyway, I assume no neutral source will ever be able to analyse the replay nor scan MKP personnal computer for messaging services history, so whatever, this case is closed, nothing else will happen.
except no one here is the police nor should they attempt to become the police for any reason what so ever.
On April 21 2015 15:51 North2 wrote: I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake.
The minimap awareness isn't the big issue with MarineKing's play, it's the fact that he scouted what was going on by seeing the spawning pool and gas timing and choose not to react to it.
On April 21 2015 15:46 Volband wrote: Do you think it would be a good marketing ploy for kespa to charge full force at matchfixing, and as first steps, destroy a few (guilty) players to show they are serious? Or is digging their head in the sand actually more beneficial?
I'd say it's more beneficial for Kespa until it's revealed, after which is less beneficial. So if it's never uncovered, this strategy is better for them.
But what about battling matchfixing itself? Even if this game remains uncovered, there are still so many suspicious things (as I read through this thread), that viewers and sponsors are losing interest.
On April 21 2015 15:46 EvilsPresley wrote: Real problem with "there is no proof, give proof of fixing" point of vue is that: how people are supposed to find any proof if no material is released to NEUTRAL investigation?
How can the police do its job if they have no mean to investigate a crime scene? It's like "We received a phone call of pinnacle saying they see their neighboor wife is being stabbed to death. Then walking by, we found some blood on the ground, but when we knocked the door, we met the neighboor husband who stated that nothing happened, so we did not push any investigation further, there was no murder."
Anyway, I assume no neutral source will ever be able to analyse the replay nor scan MKP personnal computer for messaging services history, so whatever, this case is closed, nothing else will happen.
except no one here is the police nor should they attempt to become the police for any reason what so ever.
What he's saying is that it's hard to convince us when everything points towards matchfixing and the only thing saying it isn't is that we can't look at the evidence.
The ones that can look at the evidence are biased since it's better for them if there is no matchfixing going on. Having someone neutral check into it (in his example the police) would be a way to claim that the evidence is legitimate without releasing it to the public.
On April 21 2015 15:46 Volband wrote: Do you think it would be a good marketing ploy for kespa to charge full force at matchfixing, and as first steps, destroy a few (guilty) players to show they are serious? Or is digging their head in the sand actually more beneficial?
I'd say it's more beneficial for Kespa until it's revealed, after which is less beneficial. So if it's never uncovered, this strategy is better for them.
But what about battling matchfixing itself? Even if this game remains uncovered, there are still so many suspicious things (as I read through this thread), that viewers and sponsors are losing interest.
I don't know, over 99% of Starcraft viewers will continue to watch even knowing this, maybe make some sarcastic comments regarding MarineKings map awareness.
Obviously I hope they deal with it properly, but I have my doubts :D
On April 21 2015 15:31 magicallypuzzled wrote: actually no my position from the very beginning has been it seems highly likely to be match fixing [...]
I get the impression that the discussion in this thread is mostly about whether the probability that MKP match fixed is 90%, 99%, 99.9% or 99.999999%, and exactly how much you are allowed to dust off your pitchforks at these probabilities.
I think very few think that fixing is unlikely, say below 10%, or that the probability is a mathematical exact 100% (lolz) when they really think about it and understand the evidence, even though it may seem that way when the discussion get a bit heated. People that come in with an opinion before understanding evidence should probably be politely directed to a post explaining the betting evidence in a bit more detail, rather than flamed.
So I guess a few more relevant question are 1) How should we treat MKP? Cheer for him as if nothing happened? Shun him like the plague? Something in between? 2) Can we encourage parties in power (KESPA, korean police, more? blizzard?) to take action in any way? Such as launching investigations for example. Do we even want action to be taken? 3) What options do we, as the community of watchers, have to take action if nothing happens, and these suspicious events continue? Stop watching? Spam sponsors? Pretend nothing happens? Accept the situation and add liquibets on which games will get canceled by pinnacle?
this is a good post I like it and I am not sure how to answer the questions for sure I am still undecided.
I'm torn on this one. On one hand I appreciate that MVP made a statement and at least tried to address matters in the whole MK matter, at the same time it just seems like a very generic PR statement with a defence of "MK says he didn't matchfix. So he didn't matchfix. So shut up". It doesn't address ANYTHING and it's easy to say the burden of proof on the accusers but to me that's akin to putting your fingers in your ears and going "LA LA LA LA! I AM NOT LISTENING TO YOU!"
This statement does nothing to address any questions about the game, it does nothing to temper the rampant speculation of what happened. It does nothing to answer how a former top level Korean Progamer can either mistake a spine for an overlord or not react to a spine on the edge of his base for close to a minute and a half. It does nothing other than say "He says no. Therefore it's no"
If THIS is their statement they would've been better off NOT releasing a statement at all. I mean I'm not saying they can't say "We don't believe MK is matchfixing based on the evidence" but at least give us something that says you addressed the concerns of your fans and your viewers. This, this is just PR bullshit and it just adds to the whole "coverup" conspiracy theory.
On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote: Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public?
Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it
Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly?
Kespa could also just make an exception to their rule and release it. That's not what they want. They clearly don't want to draw any attention to it. If kespa cared thay would have made a statement by now. Their strategy is to sweep it under the rug and hope that it will go away. I suspect it will grow however and at some point it will be difficult to ignore. Let's hope that this happens before the scene is too damaged to recover.
Edit: clarified they=kespa
you do realize what happened with BW and how they punished the players who were caught right?
So I see a tweet from a rep from MVP on the first page where they said he did and in the first post they say he didn't. What's happening?
I also see no updates on the investigation. If anyone should be doing a proper investigation like before it would be the police. Not some journalist.
The MVP coach says he is innocent.
I have no idea what happened in bw. That was before my time here. I only heard that the betting scandal was obvious for a while and when they finally did something the damage was already done. But correct me if i am wrong. that's just what i read in the recent threads here.
For the police to be involved there has to be a complaint. I am not a Korean citizen. I am not sure if someone even formed an offical complaint.
Um not even close with regards to the BW fiasco. It wasn't blatantly obvious. Some of us surely thought something was a miss when we see some stupid mistakes. They had to track the money as well as do a thorough investigation. you should have seen and heard how many people were devastated by it and there were many, many threads over several hundred pages long on this website alone. Heck, wax and others provided ample coverage of the proceedings.
There have been many times throughout history. Whether it be us foreigners, or the Koreans, or the league. Whether it be match fixing, using revised maps for an advantage, players playing for other players, mercenaries not supposed to be playing for certain teams, win trading which even happened on the TL BW tournaments - they caught them, etc.
I'm still never going to forgive the Red Sniper for what he did with his teammate in that Asia tournament which they never owned up to-- I know you guys did it. At least they caught him on the other bull crap. Not that final though.
There was no real complaint in how that unfolded. The team coach for CJ went up to Savior after overhearing him being swept up in a gambling ring and the guy swore he didn't know anything about it. He looks into it more and the cops get involved. I'm not saying grab your pitchforks or anything on the matter. If they keep tight lipped so be it. You need to be able to see a money trail. SaviOr was always decked out in Rolex's and other high end designer wear. They found the loose ends and there were too many players involved and some who chose not to get involved. They still knew what was happening. If it's wide spread. It's going to get leaked one way or another. It's just a question of time.
If there is no financial gain then it's going to be very hard to prove what happened. It's going to be a matter of he said, she said. It would be a lot easier if they were using a hack or something like having another player play for you (hello hotkeys and key strokes-- yeah we caught a few dandies that way). Or other players playing from another IP or masking it and then there are those people who cannot keep quiet about it. It can come out in other ways.
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
We (at least I) don't want to destroy his reputation, we want tournament organizers and Blizzard to investigate the matchfixing that is going on and hopefully stop it.
On the contrary, if he's innocent then I bet marineking would love it if Kespa found the real matchfixers!
On April 21 2015 15:36 Swoopae wrote: A lot of naievete in the thread but im glad we are having this discussion.
To mvp: if you truly want to exonerate your player you need to at a minimum do the following
Release the replay Interview w marineking with him explaining his thought process at key moments of the replay
Ideally a formal investigation into his chatlogs and finances but without police involvement thats impossible so at the very least id like to see the replay and mkp explaining his thought process to even consider the possibility this is some huge coincidence and hes somehow innocent
What are we trying to find in the replay?
Spine or creep on his player cam screen would be conclusive. Other than that its just an easy point of investigation. Bnet chat and skype chatlogs plus bank acct etc would be where the final conclusive evidence is but we cant get that without police investigation unless mk and/or other suspects
Id also look for any financial link between the 5 suspected players w voided bets and also look for links between the ips of the accts that made the suspicious bets and anyone linked to the relevant players
On April 21 2015 15:37 magicallypuzzled wrote: I love how multiple people have said mvp isn't allowed to release the replay yet people are still yelling at them to do it.
I think this thread would look very different if MVP's statement had "we would really like to show you the replay, which proves our player's innocence, but sadly, so far we could not convince kespa to release it. We will try everything we can to convince them the importance of this, so we can clean MKP's name once and for all!" in it, no?
Kespa is probably aware that matchfixing is going on by now, and is refusing to acknowledge it, let alone deal with it, most likely for fear of destroying their product. So I can't conceive that they would allow a team to release a replay, even if there is nothing to be seen on it. We all know that this community will be able to "find" something suspicious on the replay if it's released, we're very proficient at that (see Avilo posting super-detailed yet probably circumstantial evidence about every guy he thinks maphacks against him).
The only thing that is missing for me in MVP's post is the acknowledgment that some betting sites have registered weird behavior then voided the bets as a consequence, but I think that this stems from betting being illegal in Korea. It's probably awkward for them to talk about weird patterns in an illegal activity legally going on overseas hahaha.
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
edit: i don't hate him or anything though, loved his games and storyline in the early GSLs and I won't ever forget that. Sad it came to this.
On April 21 2015 15:51 North2 wrote: I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake.
The minimap awareness isn't the big issue with MarineKing's play, it's the fact that he scouted what was going on by seeing the spawning pool and gas timing and choose not to react to it.
I need more elaboration on this, since I have no idea what the spawning pool and gas timing is supposed to mean. Again, I just don't see how the zerg can expect this to work if a simple scout on the MAIN BASE supposedly gives enough information to react to this shitty looking strategy.
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
On April 21 2015 15:51 North2 wrote: I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake.
The minimap awareness isn't the big issue with MarineKing's play, it's the fact that he scouted what was going on by seeing the spawning pool and gas timing and choose not to react to it.
I need more elaboration on this, since I have no idea what the spawning pool and gas timing is supposed to mean. Again, I just don't see how the zerg can expect this to work if a simple scout on the MAIN BASE supposedly gives enough information to react to this shitty looking strategy.
Watch ByuL vs INnoVation, NSSL Season 2 Challenger, Game 5. You'll see that's it's supposed to work even when scouted.
On April 21 2015 15:37 magicallypuzzled wrote: I love how multiple people have said mvp isn't allowed to release the replay yet people are still yelling at them to do it.
I think this thread would look very different if MVP's statement had "we would really like to show you the replay, which proves our player's innocence, but sadly, so far we could not convince kespa to release it. We will try everything we can to convince them the importance of this, so we can clean MKP's name once and for all!" in it, no?
Kespa is probably aware that matchfixing is going on by now, and is refusing to acknowledge it, let alone deal with it, most likely for fear of destroying their product. So I can't conceive that they would allow a team to release a replay, even if there is nothing to be seen on it. We all know that this community will be able to "find" something suspicious on the replay if it's released, we're very proficient at that (see Avilo posting super-detailed yet probably circumstantial evidence about every guy he thinks maphacks against him).
The only thing that is missing for me in MVP's post is the acknowledgment that some betting sites have registered weird behavior then voided the bets as a consequence, but I think that this stems from betting being illegal in Korea. It's probably awkward for them to talk about weird patterns in an illegal activity legally going on overseas hahaha.
so you're saying because it happened before they don't want to deal with another black eye so they rather sweep it under the rug again? Well their WC3 scene did get hit pretty hard too. Considering the amount of humiliation they bestowed upon the BW cohort I don't know about that.
I'll just say there is a reason why TL had a team of guys who knew their shit when it came to looking at key stroke charts and hotkeys let alone checking IPs during their BW tournament a while back. Quite a few people got caught. Didn't have to release the replays. There are people who exist who are good at dissecting these things.
Betting on games should be illegal. The funny thing is I do actually place bets on a lot of these games but not through some frigging websites. I do this with people I'm personable and we have absolutely no stakes in the SC2 scene or have been involved in the scene for a very long time. Considering the demographic and the idea of governing these guys who are just trying to make a living-- back then it wasn't much of a living. That's just not going to happen. My recommendation don't use betting sites. Bet with people you know and hopefully aren't involved in the scene very much. It's like turning a blind eye meh.
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
edit: i don't hate him or anything though, loved his games and storyline in the early GSLs and I won't ever forget that. Sad it came to this.
To be fair. I've seen quite a few games from MKP where he is just blatantly awful. Like really bad.
This guy only ever gave a shit about winning. Did you ever read that article on CNN focusing on him? The dude has SUCH emotion invested in the game and winning. He's still never REALLY achieved greatness, he's only done "really really well." That slot is only open for a select few, and he's touched it with the tips of his fingers, but never really grabbed it.
Sorry but even if he did fix, it's so subtle that you can't really find out, so might as well not chastise him.
You can't just sit here and be like AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NAHHHHHHHH, MAAAAAAAAAAYBE MAN, and just fuck this guy over. Do you have hard evidence of a deal he match fixed? What was his motive? Oh, you have neither? Then GG punks, give it a rest.
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake.
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up.
I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion.
Proof has to go beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, a way to prove match-fixing beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically using the game played, would be to see if MKP ever saw the spine or the creep in his base before the time he looked surprised seconds before the lings break in.
We know two things: MKP is a progamer with many many thousands of games played. MKP looks surprised at 5:50 in game time.
If, using the replay, we can see that his main screen (not the minimap) looks over to the spine/creep earlier, then knowing the two aforementioned facts, only two conclusions can be drawn. The first (and the much more unlikely of the two), MKP is the worst progamer in not only SC2, but in ESPORTS history. After scouting no expo from Z, and a proxy spine (and therefore hatch) at his backdoor, he was surprised that he was getting cheesed when the lings busted in? MVP would do well to let him go as soon as they could. The second, much more plausible explanation, is that he threw the game. Given how unlikely the first explanation is, I would feel like the explanation of match-fixing would easily remove all reasonable doubt and it would do the same for the majority of fans alike.
This feels like it is obviously the salient point and that's why I'm annoyed it wasn't specifically addressed in the response from MVP.
I really like this post. People seem to forget that by assuming MKP is innocent, they are agreeing with the bolded statement as well.
Most common argument I've seen: doing "MKP things" is hilarious. That shows that the people defending him have such little faith in his skill/abilities that it's "okay" to make such mind-numbingly bad decisions in-game, despite being paid to put in thousands of hours to excel at the game? Absolutely disgusting game by progamer standards. By Platinum standards...
Edit: Even if he didn't see the spine, he scouted the pool timing. It's obvious that his reapers have free reign to check around his base because speedlings were an impossibility at that point in the game, which he should have, seeing as there is no hatch in the natural. So why didn't he? Again, terrible decision making, if that is the case.
On April 21 2015 16:14 Gruntt wrote: This guy only ever gave a shit about winning. Did you ever read that article on CNN focusing on him? The dude has SUCH emotion invested in the game and winning. He's still never REALLY achieved greatness, he's only done "really really well." That slot is only open for a select few, and he's touched it with the tips of his fingers, but never really grabbed it.
Sorry but even if he did fix, it's so subtle that you can't really find out, so might as well not chastise him.
You can't just sit here and be like AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NAHHHHHHHH, MAAAAAAAAAAYBE MAN, and just fuck this guy over. Do you have hard evidence of a deal he match fixed? What was his motive? Oh, you have neither? Then GG punks, give it a rest.
So did SaviOr/IPXZerg. In either case, all this banter is frivolous. Find out where the money is going and who has been talking to who. If those websites have any connection to players then you have a starting point otherwise there's no point continuing this conversation.
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up.
I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion.
Proof has to go beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, a way to prove match-fixing beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically using the game played, would be to see if MKP ever saw the spine or the creep in his base before the time he looked surprised seconds before the lings break in.
We know two things: MKP is a progamer with many many thousands of games played. MKP looks surprised at 5:50 in game time.
If, using the replay, we can see that his main screen (not the minimap) looks over to the spine/creep earlier, then knowing the two aforementioned facts, only two conclusions can be drawn. The first (and the much more unlikely of the two), MKP is the worst progamer in not only SC2, but in ESPORTS history. After scouting no expo from Z, and a proxy spine (and therefore hatch) at his backdoor, he was surprised that he was getting cheesed when the lings busted in? MVP would do well to let him go as soon as they could. The second, much more plausible explanation, is that he threw the game. Given how unlikely the first explanation is, I would feel like the explanation of match-fixing would easily remove all reasonable doubt and it would do the same for the majority of fans alike.
This feels like it is obviously the salient point and that's why I'm annoyed it wasn't specifically addressed in the response from MVP.
I really like this post. People seem to forget that by assuming MKP is innocent, they are agreeing with the bolded statement as well.
Most common argument I've seen: doing "MKP things" is hilarious. That shows that the people defending him have such little faith in his skill/abilities that it's "okay" to make such mind-numbingly bad decisions in-game, despite being paid to put in thousands of hours to excel at the game? Absolutely disgusting game by progamer standards. By Platinum standards...
Like I said before, I have seen him make quite a few boneheaded plays that are IdrA worthy or out of pure stubbornness. As in.. 'I'm going to do this build no matter what if it works great. If it doesn't, well I'm kind of boned.' Are we to say those games were fixed too and MKP is a consistent genius but throws more games? I doubt it. His play style doesn't allow him to be a consistent player. It helps having a little lady luck sometimes. There is a lot more luck in SC2 than there was in BW and it would be a lot easier to throw something. Sure, the BW guys spoke about what they were going to do beforehand to give the other player a leg up when it came to fixing. However, when we were doing clan wars or ladder tournaments we would still be able to catch people pretty swiftly and we ended up with a lot of cheaters. Many of which you already know. That's thanks to a lot of third party programs like BWChart, people on top of shit and then dumb young people trying to get away with such things because they want a quick buck or just to win. Many cases back then it was just to win because our scene had no money. A lot of the Korean pro's were making very little too so you can imagine when people flaunt a few dollars in their face and them knowing they would have to settle for mediocrity. It's kind of a shitty situation for them but you got to have pride.
I can understand their situation. It's still a bad move just to make a quick buck because you soil your reputation forever. At that age I don't think they even think about it though. I guess their tune is 'boys will be boys.'
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
On April 21 2015 15:46 EvilsPresley wrote: Real problem with "there is no proof, give proof of fixing" point of vue is that: how people are supposed to find any proof if no material is released to NEUTRAL investigation?
How can the police do its job if they have no mean to investigate a crime scene? It's like "We received a phone call of pinnacle saying they see their neighboor wife is being stabbed to death. Then walking by, we found some blood on the ground, but when we knocked the door, we met the neighboor husband who stated that nothing happened, so we did not push any investigation further, there was no murder."
Anyway, I assume no neutral source will ever be able to analyse the replay nor scan MKP personnal computer for messaging services history, so whatever, this case is closed, nothing else will happen.
except no one here is the police nor should they attempt to become the police for any reason what so ever.
Exactly, so unless the Police gets involved, there is no point asking for proof. Because noone has any way of getting any proof.
On April 21 2015 15:51 North2 wrote: I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake.
The minimap awareness isn't the big issue with MarineKing's play, it's the fact that he scouted what was going on by seeing the spawning pool and gas timing and choose not to react to it.
I need more elaboration on this, since I have no idea what the spawning pool and gas timing is supposed to mean. Again, I just don't see how the zerg can expect this to work if a simple scout on the MAIN BASE supposedly gives enough information to react to this shitty looking strategy.
When Marineking scouts ByuL's main base, he sees how far the spawning pool and gas is done. By looking at this, he knows at what time they were started.
This spawning pool timing he's scouting is very standard for a hatch first build. Thus he knows there is a hatchery building somewhere (or ByuL is floating 300 minerals in the most stupid and non-sensical mind game ever. It doesn't happen).
Since he sees it's not at the natural, there's only two options - either the hatchery is at a gold base or it's proxied for offensive purposes. He scouts the gold bases and sees no hatchery.
Since Marineking also knows when the gas was started, he knows the soonest possible moment ling speed can be finished. This means that until that moment, his reaper is free to roam the map. This is what makes reaper openings so good, the scouting!
Any pro gamer would at this point scout around the edges of your own base and even around nearby bases to find the proxy hatchery, either using the reaper and/or your scouting SCV. There is no reason not to do it, unless you want to lose the game.
Like Zephyr said - either he is the worst pro gamer in the history (like, worse than San blocking his own nexus with a pylon) or he is throwing the game. I'd add he could be drugged or some severe sickness, in which case it's even worse by MVP to field him again a couple of weeks later.
There are no other explanations. Among these ones, I say matchfixing is by far the most likely, especially seeing the betting patterns (which are close to proof enough by themselves).
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up.
I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion.
Proof has to go beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, a way to prove match-fixing beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically using the game played, would be to see if MKP ever saw the spine or the creep in his base before the time he looked surprised seconds before the lings break in.
We know two things: MKP is a progamer with many many thousands of games played. MKP looks surprised at 5:50 in game time.
If, using the replay, we can see that his main screen (not the minimap) looks over to the spine/creep earlier, then knowing the two aforementioned facts, only two conclusions can be drawn. The first (and the much more unlikely of the two), MKP is the worst progamer in not only SC2, but in ESPORTS history. After scouting no expo from Z, and a proxy spine (and therefore hatch) at his backdoor, he was surprised that he was getting cheesed when the lings busted in? MVP would do well to let him go as soon as they could. The second, much more plausible explanation, is that he threw the game. Given how unlikely the first explanation is, I would feel like the explanation of match-fixing would easily remove all reasonable doubt and it would do the same for the majority of fans alike.
This feels like it is obviously the salient point and that's why I'm annoyed it wasn't specifically addressed in the response from MVP.
I really like this post. People seem to forget that by assuming MKP is innocent, they are agreeing with the bolded statement as well.
Most common argument I've seen: doing "MKP things" is hilarious. That shows that the people defending him have such little faith in his skill/abilities that it's "okay" to make such mind-numbingly bad decisions in-game, despite being paid to put in thousands of hours to excel at the game? Absolutely disgusting game by progamer standards. By Platinum standards...
Why are you guys so salty about it lol. As I've said in my earlier posts, I find it absolutely hilarious that he either threw the game, or played so bad that everyone thought he threw the game. You can't really find games this bad too often, and I always had a good laugh when it happens.
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
Release the replay.
It's not going to prove shit. Honestly it's like I said, if they were smart. The players would have told each other in person what build they were going to do and MKP is known for having derp-tastic games. If it's true about the odds of that website and they've been known for doing sketchy business before then you might want to find out their contact information and who they speak to and try to track a paper trail of the money because this he said she said bull crap will only get you so far. Speculation needs clear cut direction.
On April 21 2015 15:51 North2 wrote: I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake.
The minimap awareness isn't the big issue with MarineKing's play, it's the fact that he scouted what was going on by seeing the spawning pool and gas timing and choose not to react to it.
I need more elaboration on this, since I have no idea what the spawning pool and gas timing is supposed to mean. Again, I just don't see how the zerg can expect this to work if a simple scout on the MAIN BASE supposedly gives enough information to react to this shitty looking strategy.
When Marineking scouts ByuL's main base, he sees how far the spawning pool and gas is done. By looking at this, he knows at what time they were started.
This spawning pool timing he's scouting is very standard for a hatch first build. Thus he knows there is a hatchery building somewhere (or ByuL is floating 300 minerals in the most stupid and non-sensical mind game ever. It doesn't happen).
Since he sees it's not at the natural, there's only two options - either the hatchery is at a gold base or it's proxied for offensive purposes. He scouts the gold bases and sees no hatchery.
Since Marineking also knows when the gas was started, he knows the soonest possible moment ling speed can be finished. This means that until that moment, his reaper is free to roam the map. This is what makes reaper openings so good, the scouting!
Any pro gamer would at this point scout around the edges of your own base and even around nearby bases to find the proxy hatchery, either using the reaper and/or your scouting SCV. There is no reason not to do it, unless you want to lose the game.
Like Zephyr said - either he is the worst pro gamer in the history (like, worse than San blocking his own nexus with a pylon) or he is throwing the game. I'd add he could be drugged or some severe sickness, in which case it's even worse by MVP to field him again a couple of weeks later.
There are no other explanations. Among these ones, I say matchfixing is by far the most likely, especially seeing the betting patterns (which are close to proof enough by themselves).
What if...he forgot those destructible rocks can be destroyed by enemies? I've done that before. I'm so tunneled into one thing that I forget about several other important aspects of the game.
That said, your explanation bumped my 8:2 odds up to 15:1 that he was probably throwing the game.
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up.
I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion.
Proof has to go beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, a way to prove match-fixing beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically using the game played, would be to see if MKP ever saw the spine or the creep in his base before the time he looked surprised seconds before the lings break in.
We know two things: MKP is a progamer with many many thousands of games played. MKP looks surprised at 5:50 in game time.
If, using the replay, we can see that his main screen (not the minimap) looks over to the spine/creep earlier, then knowing the two aforementioned facts, only two conclusions can be drawn. The first (and the much more unlikely of the two), MKP is the worst progamer in not only SC2, but in ESPORTS history. After scouting no expo from Z, and a proxy spine (and therefore hatch) at his backdoor, he was surprised that he was getting cheesed when the lings busted in? MVP would do well to let him go as soon as they could. The second, much more plausible explanation, is that he threw the game. Given how unlikely the first explanation is, I would feel like the explanation of match-fixing would easily remove all reasonable doubt and it would do the same for the majority of fans alike.
This feels like it is obviously the salient point and that's why I'm annoyed it wasn't specifically addressed in the response from MVP.
I really like this post. People seem to forget that by assuming MKP is innocent, they are agreeing with the bolded statement as well.
Most common argument I've seen: doing "MKP things" is hilarious. That shows that the people defending him have such little faith in his skill/abilities that it's "okay" to make such mind-numbingly bad decisions in-game, despite being paid to put in thousands of hours to excel at the game? Absolutely disgusting game by progamer standards. By Platinum standards...
Why are you guys so salty about it lol. As I've said in my earlier posts, I find it absolutely hilarious that he either threw the game, or played so bad that everyone thought he threw the game. You can't really find games this bad too often, and I always had a good laugh when it happens.
Unless you're a fan.
I don't get it, you're agreeing with me? I do indeed find it funny that it's possible for people to say "hey, it's fine, MKP's just really really bad." And they're fans?
On April 21 2015 16:40 North2 wrote: What if...he forgot those destructible rocks can be destroyed by enemies? I've done that before. I'm so tunneled into one thing that I forget about several other important aspects of the game.
That said, your explanation bumped my 8:2 odds up to 15:1 that he was probably throwing the game.
I apologize for being blunt but... that's the reason why you're not in a Proleague team playing a televised match :s
well shit a lot of the links in it are dead and would be in Korean. I know TL had extensive coverage of the proceedings and how everything went down including how the manager first found out about it in the practice room and how SaviOr lied directly to his face (ofc he didn't want it to be revealed). It wasn't going to change anything considering how many people were involved or knew of it happening.
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up.
I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion.
Proof has to go beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, a way to prove match-fixing beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically using the game played, would be to see if MKP ever saw the spine or the creep in his base before the time he looked surprised seconds before the lings break in.
We know two things: MKP is a progamer with many many thousands of games played. MKP looks surprised at 5:50 in game time.
If, using the replay, we can see that his main screen (not the minimap) looks over to the spine/creep earlier, then knowing the two aforementioned facts, only two conclusions can be drawn. The first (and the much more unlikely of the two), MKP is the worst progamer in not only SC2, but in ESPORTS history. After scouting no expo from Z, and a proxy spine (and therefore hatch) at his backdoor, he was surprised that he was getting cheesed when the lings busted in? MVP would do well to let him go as soon as they could. The second, much more plausible explanation, is that he threw the game. Given how unlikely the first explanation is, I would feel like the explanation of match-fixing would easily remove all reasonable doubt and it would do the same for the majority of fans alike.
This feels like it is obviously the salient point and that's why I'm annoyed it wasn't specifically addressed in the response from MVP.
I really like this post. People seem to forget that by assuming MKP is innocent, they are agreeing with the bolded statement as well.
Most common argument I've seen: doing "MKP things" is hilarious. That shows that the people defending him have such little faith in his skill/abilities that it's "okay" to make such mind-numbingly bad decisions in-game, despite being paid to put in thousands of hours to excel at the game? Absolutely disgusting game by progamer standards. By Platinum standards...
Why are you guys so salty about it lol. As I've said in my earlier posts, I find it absolutely hilarious that he either threw the game, or played so bad that everyone thought he threw the game. You can't really find games this bad too often, and I always had a good laugh when it happens.
Unless you're a fan.
I don't get it, you're agreeing with me? I do indeed find it funny that it's possible for people to say "hey, it's fine, MKP's just really really bad." And they're fans?
Yes and no. Why put a negative tone on your post by saying 'absolutely disgusting game' instead of poking fun at it? Why get annoyed by MVP's statement instead of poking fun at it?
I dunno, maybe you didn't intend it to be that way, but I read your post as a bit of laughter and a bit of angst.
On April 21 2015 15:51 North2 wrote: I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake.
The minimap awareness isn't the big issue with MarineKing's play, it's the fact that he scouted what was going on by seeing the spawning pool and gas timing and choose not to react to it.
I need more elaboration on this, since I have no idea what the spawning pool and gas timing is supposed to mean. Again, I just don't see how the zerg can expect this to work if a simple scout on the MAIN BASE supposedly gives enough information to react to this shitty looking strategy.
When Marineking scouts ByuL's main base, he sees how far the spawning pool and gas is done. By looking at this, he knows at what time they were started.
This spawning pool timing he's scouting is very standard for a hatch first build. Thus he knows there is a hatchery building somewhere (or ByuL is floating 300 minerals in the most stupid and non-sensical mind game ever. It doesn't happen).
Since he sees it's not at the natural, there's only two options - either the hatchery is at a gold base or it's proxied for offensive purposes. He scouts the gold bases and sees no hatchery.
Since Marineking also knows when the gas was started, he knows the soonest possible moment ling speed can be finished. This means that until that moment, his reaper is free to roam the map. This is what makes reaper openings so good, the scouting!
Any pro gamer would at this point scout around the edges of your own base and even around nearby bases to find the proxy hatchery, either using the reaper and/or your scouting SCV. There is no reason not to do it, unless you want to lose the game.
Like Zephyr said - either he is the worst pro gamer in the history (like, worse than San blocking his own nexus with a pylon) or he is throwing the game. I'd add he could be drugged or some severe sickness, in which case it's even worse by MVP to field him again a couple of weeks later.
There are no other explanations. Among these ones, I say matchfixing is by far the most likely, especially seeing the betting patterns (which are close to proof enough by themselves).
This kind of answer would amaze me if I didn't know how many people were/are ready to believe 9/11 was US government plot or that men in black style alien story are real...
We could debate forever about how letting your reapers in base is a perfectly fine defense (cause really you already tried to kill a hatch with 2 reapers? do you really think it's worth the risk of being surrounded by lings?) and about how INnovation scouted the same build 2 weeks later (except he know what byul does) tried to react but lost anyway cause the build is hella strong on this map, about plenty of other things that have been pointed out on other threads (esp regarding Pinnacle's role in this story)...
But it's not even worth it, cause like anyone caught into a consipracy theory, you're being blind to simple evidence and tied in your own reasonning fallacies (if you have the time you should read THIS and question all the post your made about this MK affair)
In the end, you've being bitching about the delay of this statement every 2 days on these forums, and when it finally comes - and is much more detailed than one could have expected, tbh - you give us you're already made conclusion "Match fixing is by far the most likely". Actually you just can't hear anything else and maybe in your wetdreams your thought that MVP would say "MK is guilty, thx @DJHelium, here, take that Pulitzer price"
It's also likely you won't stop posting about this until eveybody on TL says you're right, and as this will not happen, you will keep on posting, until everyone is just too bored to even read what you post and nobody will answer.
At this point, maybe, when nobody but you and a few other consiprationist will still keep posting, you might think that we re all conviced and the MK's matchfixing case has been proven. In your little world MK will be in the hall of infame right next to Savior, and you will think, with a sigh of relief, "luckily I was there, else nobody would have known".
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake.
my apologies some of what I said was out of line and it is true that at the very least mkp is showing that he sucks enough to make such a terrible mistake even if the worst isn't true.
On April 21 2015 15:51 North2 wrote: I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake.
The minimap awareness isn't the big issue with MarineKing's play, it's the fact that he scouted what was going on by seeing the spawning pool and gas timing and choose not to react to it.
I need more elaboration on this, since I have no idea what the spawning pool and gas timing is supposed to mean. Again, I just don't see how the zerg can expect this to work if a simple scout on the MAIN BASE supposedly gives enough information to react to this shitty looking strategy.
When Marineking scouts ByuL's main base, he sees how far the spawning pool and gas is done. By looking at this, he knows at what time they were started.
This spawning pool timing he's scouting is very standard for a hatch first build. Thus he knows there is a hatchery building somewhere (or ByuL is floating 300 minerals in the most stupid and non-sensical mind game ever. It doesn't happen).
Since he sees it's not at the natural, there's only two options - either the hatchery is at a gold base or it's proxied for offensive purposes. He scouts the gold bases and sees no hatchery.
Since Marineking also knows when the gas was started, he knows the soonest possible moment ling speed can be finished. This means that until that moment, his reaper is free to roam the map. This is what makes reaper openings so good, the scouting!
Any pro gamer would at this point scout around the edges of your own base and even around nearby bases to find the proxy hatchery, either using the reaper and/or your scouting SCV. There is no reason not to do it, unless you want to lose the game.
Like Zephyr said - either he is the worst pro gamer in the history (like, worse than San blocking his own nexus with a pylon) or he is throwing the game. I'd add he could be drugged or some severe sickness, in which case it's even worse by MVP to field him again a couple of weeks later.
There are no other explanations. Among these ones, I say matchfixing is by far the most likely, especially seeing the betting patterns (which are close to proof enough by themselves).
This kind of answer would amaze me if I didn't know how many people were/are ready to believe 9/11 was US government plot or that men in black style alien story are real...
We could debate forever about how letting your reapers in base is a perfectly fine defense (cause really you already tried to kill a hatch with 2 reapers? do you really think it's worth the risk of being surrounded by lings?) and about how INnovation scouted the same build 2 weeks later (except he know what byul does) tried to react but lost anyway cause the build is hella strong on this map, about plenty of other things that have been pointed out on other threads (esp regarding Pinnacle's role in this story)...
But it's not even worth it, cause like anyone caught into a consipracy theory, you're being blind to simple evidence and tied in your own reasonning fallacies (if you have the time you should read THIS and question all the post your made about this MK affair)
In the end, you've being bitching about the delay of this statement every 2 days on these forums, and when it finally comes - and is much more detailed than one could have expected, tbh - you give us you're already made conclusion "Match fixing is by far the most likely". Actually you just can't hear anything else and maybe in your wetdreams your thought that MVP would say "MK is guilty, thx @DJHelium, here, take that Pulitzer price"
It's also likely you won't stop posting about this until eveybody on TL says you're right, and as this will not happen, you will keep on posting, until everyone is just too bored to even read what you post and nobody will answer.
At this point, maybe, when nobody but you and a few other consiprationist will still keep posting, you might think that we re all conviced and the MK's matchfixing case has been proven. In your little world MK will be in the hall of infame right next to Savior, and you will think, with a sigh of relief, "luckily I was there, else nobody would have known".
Oh wow :D
What is the simple evidence I'm being blind towards? I'm happy to be proven wrong here!
I'm trying to stay reasonable in all my posts, explaining my thought process. What I'm saying is that there's almost no risk of being surrounded by lings since there is no ling speed.
I'd even go so far to say that it's worth to sacrifice the reaper just to know what's coming, but that's just my subjective opinion.
The reason I'm so invested in this is because I love to watch Starcraft and I don't want one of my favourite hobbies to suck just because some people matchfix. I think the solution is to have TOs/Blizz investigate. It's not being done afaik so I try to bring attention to the issue.
edit: And I don't feel I've been "bitching" about the statement here on the forums, I try to keep that to MVP's twitter. What posts are you refering to?
Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on.
Either way MK is done. What we're seeing is the world's longest death animation. If he did fix the match it will eventually come out, just as it did with Savior. If he didn't, then his skills are degenerating to being so inept and so blind he's making Bronze League errors.
Either way I just don't see a way he comes back from this. I'm not saying MVP should cut him loose and not at least try and get him back, but man I don't see how he can.
While Totalbiscuit is right concerning the burden of proof, this statement is already a step towards re-gaining trust. MVP could've completely ignored the case, in no way were they responsible (except maybe morally) for clearing up what happened.
MVP decided to indeed release a statement regarding this affair. Once they found out that MarineKing is innocent, they had two ways to go:
a) do a "we did research and he's innocent" statement. That's what they did. Or, b) do a "we did the following things: 1. .... 2. .... 3. ..., and came to the conclusion that ..."
Well, b) would've been the road of transparency. They could've explained exactly what they did to ensure that this was no obvious throw (including pressuring KeSPA to release the replay!). Apparently they tried to go down that road but seemingly stopped midway:
"we asked MKP" (well, awkward but I get the idea) and "he was clearly in making his position"
I read that as "We asked him and he did not show any signs of a guilt consciousness or remorse". My personal opinion: given that MarineKing tends to show his nervousness, that's actually a good indicator that he's not lying.
"We took charge of the game and tried to understand exactly the circumstance, not only by checking the replay again"
I read that as "We analyzed heavily what happened in game and could not find obvious fixing blunders such as MarineKing's camera pointing on the spine crawler building". If that is true, why not release the replay for everyone to check? I hope they're not afraid of pitchforks, because every second post in this thread contains a torch already. But okay, for whatever reasons they don't publish it (Totalbiscuit said "KeSPA"), it feels like they're shooting their own legs.
"We also kinda grilled MarineKing several times, that's why he didn't play in Proleague for a while"
I read that as "MarineKing said he didn't fix, and we really put pressure on him so maybe he'd crumble. We're taking this very seriously and don't want to raise the thought that our decision is solely based on MarineKing admitting his guilt or denying his guilt."
TheDwf asked on page 1 already:
On April 21 2015 07:14 TheDwf wrote: I have no idea what kind of “magic” people were expecting about that statement, but clearly they won't get it.
Well I can give an idea about what kind of "magic" I expected:
I expected a thorough, clean, solid and understandable argumentation behind whatever decision/conclusion Team MVP has come to. The outcome of that decision is actually irrelevant. At this point, who really cares if MarineKing is guilty or not? I think it has all come down to a trust issue (at least for me, it has). So the most important thing currently is regaining trust. How can you do that? By transparently explaining your thought process on your decision. He's innocent? Well, hopefully you did some more than repeatedly asking him. He's guilty? Hopefully you did some more than just comparing the replay with other replays. I don't want to judge. I just want to see that organizations are actually honest. Being honest as an organization can not always be a good thing, I know, especially in hard-fought markets. But at this point, the only way to heal the damage that has been done is IMHO transparency and honesty. Let us not only know what you think, but let us know why you think so. Let us reproduce your thought process, give us the chance to agree (or disagree) with your argumentation.
On April 21 2015 07:50 TeeTS wrote: Everyone who knows a little bit of Marineking can absolutely confirm, that he is one of the very last players, that will ever fix a match in any professional sport/esport for monetary gain. I for myself would guarantee that for now and for the future. And since this is all about him, I don´t get what´s wrong with you. Marineking allways has been an extremely dedicated and fair compender in BW and SC2. He is an extremely passionate hard worker and he was never the guy that cared about the big bucks, NEVER! I find this whole discussion absolutely disrespectful. You should all be ashamed!
I remember how 'fair' he was at the gstl finals vs Startale yes :') Anyway this statement doesn't say anything, but at least they made a statement, although 2 weeks late. I still think he matchfixed which I thought from the first time I watched the game again. Even some pros think without much doubt that this was in fact matchfixing
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on.
Well, no shit. When there is a competition and betting, there is match-fixing, too. Nothing new under the sun. Whether MarineKing match-fixed or not we can't be certain without proper investigation. If he did, he should be punished according to the law.
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
Release the replay.
It's not going to prove shit. Honestly it's like I said, if they were smart. The players would have told each other in person what build they were going to do and MKP is known for having derp-tastic games. If it's true about the odds of that website and they've been known for doing sketchy business before then you might want to find out their contact information and who they speak to and try to track a paper trail of the money because this he said she said bull crap will only get you so far. Speculation needs clear cut direction.
What? No usually only the loser is involved into the matchfixing, byul probably didn't know about it.
I expected a thorough, clean, solid and understandable argumentation behind whatever decision/conclusion Team MVP has come to. The outcome of that decision is actually irrelevant. At this point, who really cares if MarineKing is guilty or not? I think it has all come down to a trust issue (at least for me, it has). So the most important thing currently is regaining trust. How can you do that? By transparently explaining your thought process on your decision. He's innocent? Well, hopefully you did some more than repeatedly asking him. He's guilty? Hopefully you did some more than just comparing the replay with other replays. I don't want to judge. I just want to see that organizations are actually honest. Being honest as an organization can not always be a good thing, I know, especially in hard-fought markets. But at this point, the only way to heal the damage that has been done is IMHO transparency and honesty. Let us not only know what you think, but let us know why you think so. Let us reproduce your thought process, give us the chance to agree (or disagree) with your argumentation.
You expected that? Don't you mean "hoped for"? If so, I agree
On April 21 2015 18:01 vanjojojo wrote: Just my 2 cents but has it not occurred to anyone that someone with mkps experience / mechanics no matter how much his got worse or better over the years was going to matchfix - is he really going to make it............ this obvious?
I mean think about it - if you're smart you'll figure it out.
"Facepalm" this has been discussed so many times in the other thread. But I should inform you: What about if you're trying to throw, you are nervous, but then you scout your opponent going for a crazy all-in build. A build you, normally, should be able to stop because of the early scouting of it. What now?
The "mistake" MK made was to send out the SCV scout. But how could he have known?
Just my 2 cents but has it not occurred to anyone that someone with mkps experience / mechanics no matter how much his got worse or better over the years was going to matchfix - is he really going to make it............ this obvious?
I mean think about it - if you're smart you'll figure it out.
I expected a thorough, clean, solid and understandable argumentation behind whatever decision/conclusion Team MVP has come to. The outcome of that decision is actually irrelevant. At this point, who really cares if MarineKing is guilty or not? I think it has all come down to a trust issue (at least for me, it has). So the most important thing currently is regaining trust. How can you do that? By transparently explaining your thought process on your decision. He's innocent? Well, hopefully you did some more than repeatedly asking him. He's guilty? Hopefully you did some more than just comparing the replay with other replays. I don't want to judge. I just want to see that organizations are actually honest. Being honest as an organization can not always be a good thing, I know, especially in hard-fought markets. But at this point, the only way to heal the damage that has been done is IMHO transparency and honesty. Let us not only know what you think, but let us know why you think so. Let us reproduce your thought process, give us the chance to agree (or disagree) with your argumentation.
You expected that? Don't you mean "hoped for"? If so, I agree
I expected. It's a naive expectation of course. But it is what a company of integrity should've done. If they don't act like a serious business, well, then fuck them. I'm not putting passion or anything into a scene that fools and betrays me while making absolutely no effort to clear anythign up.
It's easy since it's all about entertainment: I am not entertained. I pay somewhere else for something else then.
I expected a thorough, clean, solid and understandable argumentation behind whatever decision/conclusion Team MVP has come to. The outcome of that decision is actually irrelevant. At this point, who really cares if MarineKing is guilty or not? I think it has all come down to a trust issue (at least for me, it has). So the most important thing currently is regaining trust. How can you do that? By transparently explaining your thought process on your decision. He's innocent? Well, hopefully you did some more than repeatedly asking him. He's guilty? Hopefully you did some more than just comparing the replay with other replays. I don't want to judge. I just want to see that organizations are actually honest. Being honest as an organization can not always be a good thing, I know, especially in hard-fought markets. But at this point, the only way to heal the damage that has been done is IMHO transparency and honesty. Let us not only know what you think, but let us know why you think so. Let us reproduce your thought process, give us the chance to agree (or disagree) with your argumentation.
You expected that? Don't you mean "hoped for"? If so, I agree
I expected. It's a naive expectation of course. But it is what a company of integrity should've done. If they don't act like a serious business, well, then fuck them. I'm not putting passion or anything into a scene that fools and betrays me while making absolutely no effort to clear anythign up.
It's easy since it's all about entertainment: I am not entertained. I pay somewhere else for something else then.
So you need to stop following every competitive activity. Or wake up and realize how the world works.
I expected a thorough, clean, solid and understandable argumentation behind whatever decision/conclusion Team MVP has come to. The outcome of that decision is actually irrelevant. At this point, who really cares if MarineKing is guilty or not? I think it has all come down to a trust issue (at least for me, it has). So the most important thing currently is regaining trust. How can you do that? By transparently explaining your thought process on your decision. He's innocent? Well, hopefully you did some more than repeatedly asking him. He's guilty? Hopefully you did some more than just comparing the replay with other replays. I don't want to judge. I just want to see that organizations are actually honest. Being honest as an organization can not always be a good thing, I know, especially in hard-fought markets. But at this point, the only way to heal the damage that has been done is IMHO transparency and honesty. Let us not only know what you think, but let us know why you think so. Let us reproduce your thought process, give us the chance to agree (or disagree) with your argumentation.
You expected that? Don't you mean "hoped for"? If so, I agree
I expected. It's a naive expectation of course. But it is what a company of integrity should've done. If they don't act like a serious business, well, then fuck them. I'm not putting passion or anything into a scene that fools and betrays me while making absolutely no effort to clear anythign up.
It's easy since it's all about entertainment: I am not entertained. I pay somewhere else for something else then.
So you need to stop following every competitive activity. Or wake up and realize how the world works.
You're oversimplifying and generalizing. I'm talking about the very actual case of match fixing in Korean SC2. I don't think Dreamhacks or IEMs are fixed in the outcome. I don't believe that WCS Premier is fixed.
I should mention that I initially didn't think that Proleague/GSL/NSSL included match fixing. Well, turned out I was wrong, though I wasn't a super hardcore "NO FIXING HERE" guy but more a "well I didn't think about that possibility until now" guy.
On April 21 2015 18:01 vanjojojo wrote: Just my 2 cents but has it not occurred to anyone that someone with mkps experience / mechanics no matter how much his got worse or better over the years was going to matchfix - is he really going to make it............ this obvious?
I mean think about it - if you're smart you'll figure it out.
A number of things could have happened. I think it's likely that he just knew he had to lose the game, but at the start of the game obviously he doesn't know how yet, as it depends on what ByuL is doing (and ByuL is most likely not part of the matchfixing in this case). Then he scouts by accident the proxy from ByuL and panics, because maybe he thought he would play a macrogame that he could lose smoothly. In the end, players do not practice for matchfixing, they practice to win, so it doesn't seem strange to me that they wouldn't know how to do it very well.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
I think people also misunderstand the role of Pinnacle and Pinnacle's bettors in this. The matchfixers aren't betting on Pinnacle. Matchfixers are betting on Korean betting sites. The curious activity that occurs on Pinnacle is due to some observant bettors that look at the Korean betting sites taking advantage of what appear to be fixed games. When they see curious activity on Korean betting sites, they try to take advantage by betting the same way on Pinnacle. There are several possible scenarios possible from this type of activity:
1.) Multiple Pinnacle bettors try to ride the wave and the odds explode, leading to cancelled bets — this is what we've seen happen 2.) Only a handful of Pinnacle bettors notice the possible fix, and the odds don't move enough to give us a clue — since the lines did not get voided, we don't realize these games could have been fixed 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
That's why Pinnacle can't stop matchfixing or the illegal betting. What happens on Pinnacle is merely a bunch of bettors trying to ride the wave, and they have no direct involvement with the fixing.
The wave ridding makes no sense. Nobody does that. A good bettor does the exact opposite. Whenever you see a big steam of money the opposite line gets more interesting to bet on. Why would anyone risk betting huge amounts of money at terrible odds? Either they lose it or the bet gets voided.
You may be right about the korean betting sides and that Pinnacle is just a side effect. What I and other bettors think is that the match fixer is selling the information to a group of people. That's why Pinnacle and other sites have probably trouble just banning the accounts of the fixers. It would be an easy fix otherwise. It would be quite obvious if only a low number of accounts bet tens of thousands of money on a single match. Bets got voided in cases when people tried to sell it to too many other people. I think there were a lot more cases when Pinnacle didn't void the bets but the match was clearly match fixed. (See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476033-pinnacle-voids-dark-vs-san-bets-due-to-match-manipulation-concerns?page=52#1034 )
We've already talked to Pinnacle and they seem hesitant to do anything to the accounts, since they can't prove that the accounts were in on the fix (illegal) and not merely riding the wave (not illegal). It's entirely possible that some Pinnacle bettors are buying for info on the fix, though, and then got greedy. Every instance of bets being voided is just stupidity on the part of the bettors. It's very very possible that there were other fixes that no one noticed, but there's also a chance that there were games that appeared fixed due to people trying to ride the wave and getting it wrong.
It's even entirely possible that the people betting on pinnacle are completely on the level. If the lines go nuts on korean betting sites first, an enterprising individual could guarantee profit by arbitraging the difference between the two. The only risk you'd undertake is one of the ends not honoring your bet (like what Pinnacle did).
This is blatantly obvious matchfixing, going only by the game itself. There is no other explanation, for a good player failing to spot something on his minimap for a minute straight, when nothing else is going on and he has already knows there is something fishy about the Zerg build order. I would be surprised if anybody who has played the game at a decent level disagrees.
On April 21 2015 18:01 vanjojojo wrote: Just my 2 cents but has it not occurred to anyone that someone with mkps experience / mechanics no matter how much his got worse or better over the years was going to matchfix - is he really going to make it............ this obvious?
I mean think about it - if you're smart you'll figure it out.
A number of things could have happened. I think it's likely that he just knew he had to lose the game, but at the start of the game obviously he doesn't know how yet, as it depends on what ByuL is doing (and ByuL is most likely not part of the matchfixing in this case). Then he scouts by accident the proxy from ByuL and panics, because maybe he thought he would play a macrogame that he could lose smoothly. In the end, players do not practice for matchfixing, they practice to win, so it doesn't seem strange to me that they wouldn't know how to do it very well.
In my opinion (please note that) sorry that's not true
They practice to win yep it's true but not knowing how to hide the fact they're match fixing is not.
Every pro will know what's going to lose them the game in their mind (based on what they see and do and how they feel)
Its not hard to hide. Plus its not unusual to see mkp go 10/10 retard mode he does it from time to time anyway. but match fixing? that guys so emotional he probably cries at a puppy sleeping.
And his not that stupid to make it that obvious - again just my 2 cents sorry if I offended anyone.
On April 21 2015 18:36 Exstasy wrote: If we're going by assumptions why not just assume that MVP is in on it? fuck it they need money right?
There's no definite proof MK matchfixed but there IS some pretty incriminating evidence, certainly more than just "assumptions". There isn't anything that incriminates MVP, so that's why.
On April 21 2015 11:06 lichter wrote: 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
You know that's less than 0,01% probability for 7 matches?
On April 21 2015 18:36 Exstasy wrote: If we're going by assumptions why not just assume that MVP is in on it? fuck it they need money right?
There's no definite proof MK matchfixed but there IS some pretty incriminating evidence, certainly more than just "assumptions". There isn't anything that incriminates MVP, so that's why.
On April 21 2015 11:06 lichter wrote: 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
You know that's less than 0,01% probability for 7 matches?
On April 21 2015 18:36 Exstasy wrote: If we're going by assumptions why not just assume that MVP is in on it? fuck it they need money right?
There's no definite proof MK matchfixed but there IS some pretty incriminating evidence, certainly more than just "assumptions". There isn't anything that incriminates MVP, so that's why.
I know man, I was being facetious.
I don't know anymore :/ I mean, with posts like this:
On April 21 2015 07:50 TeeTS wrote: Everyone who knows a little bit of Marineking can absolutely confirm, that he is one of the very last players, that will ever fix a match in any professional sport/esport for monetary gain. I for myself would guarantee that for now and for the future. And since this is all about him, I don´t get what´s wrong with you. Marineking allways has been an extremely dedicated and fair compender in BW and SC2. He is an extremely passionate hard worker and he was never the guy that cared about the big bucks, NEVER! I find this whole discussion absolutely disrespectful. You should all be ashamed!
It's insanely naive but he is actually being serious isn't he? :-S
On April 21 2015 11:06 lichter wrote: 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
You know that's less than 0,01% probability for 7 matches?
2^-7 = 0.78%
That's assuming 50-50, I don't remember the previous ones, but I went with Creator-Soulkey odds (which I admit, I didn't even check)
edit: still didn't quite match. less than 0,1% more like
most of the arguments put forth to defend mkp here(I am talking about arguments that it is unlikely he fixed. The arguments that it is likely he fixed but we should have 100% proof I have no qualms with) have been along the lines of he's too nice, or he's the kind of person who would never do this sort of thing.
As a counter for them, you can watch the oldboy nalRa series, where he's training to go back into pro brood war, one the players he trains with at his house for a day was someone who ended up being caught up in the bw matchfixing scandal despite just being a shy, nice kid. Just because you are nice or a good person doesn't mean you cant be misled or led astray by others and not really appreciate the consequences of your actions, especially if have just been living in sheltered gaming houses all adult life.
I don't think MKPs personality can be used as his sole defence.
Considering the combination of people who are in the know, have stated how bad the match fixing is in sc2 at the moment, the betting patterns and the very questionable game. Together it suggests a very low probability MKP is innocent.
the statement provides no evidence to suggest otherwise.
yeah, this statement satisfies nobody and says nothing much, mvp are clearly not going to come out and throw marineking under the bus, it's more or less the standard corporate whitewashing that everybody expected
also huge lol at all this burden of proof nonsense. marineking, a professional gamer for over 5 years who must have played tens of thousands of games, proceeds to play a game and makes a series of bronze-level errors leading to a trivial loss, while at the same time tens of thousands of dollars are being wagered on his opponent is very, very strong evidence, and his team coming out saying "we asked him some questions and he didn't match fix" does not constitute reasonable doubt.
On April 21 2015 11:01 Shellshock wrote: idk what people expected
Exactly this, I did and most people in the other thread(s) as well probably.
Hoped for something different but expected this.
Same here really, exactly what I expected. So they either know MK threw the game and are defending him (most likely) or are just really dumb/naive.
If they really wanted to help convince people they would release the replay. But they can't because then truth would be known, so as long as they don't it's just more "proof" really.
I'm going back on my former statement that marineking's career should be finished since if matchfixing really is rife in proleague it makes no sense to single out individuals.
On April 21 2015 20:47 Grumbels wrote: I'm going back on my former statement that marineking's career should be finished since if matchfixing really is rife in proleague it makes no sense to single out individuals.
No you were right in your statement. As I said his career should be over either way. If he's matchfixing it will come out eventually, if he isn't it's probably worse at this point because it means his game has degenerated to a point he'll never come back from, thus he shouldn't be playing anyway
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
Release the replay.
It's not going to prove shit. Honestly it's like I said, if they were smart. The players would have told each other in person what build they were going to do and MKP is known for having derp-tastic games. If it's true about the odds of that website and they've been known for doing sketchy business before then you might want to find out their contact information and who they speak to and try to track a paper trail of the money because this he said she said bull crap will only get you so far. Speculation needs clear cut direction.
What? No usually only the loser is involved into the matchfixing, byul probably didn't know about it.
I wouldn't say something as if it were an absolute when we're speaking hypothetical. Not only that a lot of the BW players in the match fixing ring did exactly what I just said. They gave each other a heads up as to what build they would do and the other player would turn a blind eye.
On April 21 2015 20:47 Grumbels wrote: I'm going back on my former statement that marineking's career should be finished since if matchfixing really is rife in proleague it makes no sense to single out individuals.
No you were right in your statement. As I said his career should be over either way. If he's matchfixing it will come out eventually, if he isn't it's probably worse at this point because it means his game has degenerated to a point he'll never come back from, thus he shouldn't be playing anyway
Well, I think it's like arresting low level drug pushers instead of going after the cartels. Unless you do the latter nothing will change, because there are enough incentives to be lured to matchfixing (such as lack of income).
I will say that MarineKing has lost my respect as a player forever and I don't think there is any excuse. If he couldn't financially survive or whatever then he should have gotten a different job instead of this. But in the end he is just a kid with no education who couldn't resist the money. I think more useful than punishing MK is to pressure KeSPA into investigating.
I'll concede that booing MK whenever he plays in KeSPA events or something like that might be useful in pressuring KeSPA. I think getting at KeSPA through MK is something the latter can't really complain about given his unethical actions.
On April 21 2015 19:34 ChromeBallz wrote: And this proves that the concept of a 'witch hunt' is still alive and kicking.
Except in this particular hunt: - one of the ex-slayers confirmed the existence of witches - the wizards of Pinnacle reported occult abnormalities involving the Marine King - he threw like a blind old lady
Marineking was without a doubt NOT the betting favorite, he has not been playing well for a while now. Not being the betting favorite + large amounts of money being bet on Byul would mean the payout would have been relatively small (which i would think does not outweigh the risk of matchfixing). And honestly this isn't even the most incompetent thing that's happened on a broadcasted match. There was a game where JAEDONG had blocked his own ramp and half his army was stuck and he didn't notice it for almost 10 minutes.
And the most important thing is innocent until proven guilty, what we have here is one coincidence. This is purely a witch-hunt there is no real evidence against him from what we know.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote: It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
They aimed that stament either towards a part of the community who will believe that MatchFixKing is innocent no matter what (because he is such a NICE guy), or just towards the unintelligent people in general who will swallow any bullshit without much critical thinking.
It looks like a statement from a bunch of buddies protecting their friend, and not a statement of a professional progaming team taking the matchfixing accusations seriosly and trying to address them.
Do we know for how long this 2nd matchfixing incident has been going on? If im not mistaken it took kespa a long time to come out and ban players in the Match Fixing Scandal, hopefully this time, despite the reaction nevertheless being slow on their part, some legal action is taken faster.
On April 21 2015 13:09 Charoisaur wrote: Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie? His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does. The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Edit: also +1 to TB; innocent until proven guilty, worthless accusations aren't doing anything.
Yeah dude, I bet his mom thinks he's innocent too, so he's pretty solid!
Jesus, if your post is not sarcasm, then no wonder things like this can happen.
On April 21 2015 11:42 SnowStormer wrote: MK, a player infamous for cracking under pressure - often pressure he himself created - lost a game badly. Which he does often, which people know.
At best all thats been presented was a plausible scenario.
I don't even understand people like you, who straight out refuses to even mention the suspicious betting. What's the point? Why even bother posting? Imagine if everyone mysteriously "forgot" relevant stuff from the story, and people were arguing here whether MKP even played that day or not, haha.
After reading through this thread, I'm actually more disappointed in people in general for making BS posts like these, than in MKP. At least he could have reasons I can get behind, like being short on money - still not makes him innocent, obviously -, but fanboyism is no excuse for making posts like these, which eject common sense.
/rant
You are talking about betting lines as if they are a form of solid proof which can only be explained by match fixing.
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake.
Sorry, but posts like these make me sick.
It's not that you assumed I did not read the whole thread, yet interestingly it's one more dull accusation.
It is because you take up your pitchfork due to a mere suspicion. I repeat it again: You can't prove it. Period. I find it suspicious as well, but I don't tell people: "Yep, clearly, that's fraud!" It's simply not what civilized people do. As I said, I am very sure fixed matches exist in highest professional sports, but as long as I can't prove it, I have to keep my mouth shut when I am sober.
Look, I can do the same: To me, all of your posts make you suspicious of terrifying cute ducklings. According to your logic, I don't have to prove that, you duckling-frightener.
To cut it short, I still think it can be idiocy. If you watch professional sports, idiocies happen. It as well can be a fraud, but that's something we can't tell for sure (I think he would've done it in a less obvious, but that's as well speculation). Shitstorming or pitchforking people is generally a thing that disgusts me. They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on and conclude the world is bad.
On April 21 2015 13:09 Charoisaur wrote: Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie? His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does. The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Edit: also +1 to TB; innocent until proven guilty, worthless accusations aren't doing anything.
Yeah dude, I bet his mom thinks he's innocent too, so he's pretty solid!
Jesus, if your post is not sarcasm, then no wonder things like this can happen.
On April 21 2015 11:42 SnowStormer wrote: MK, a player infamous for cracking under pressure - often pressure he himself created - lost a game badly. Which he does often, which people know.
At best all thats been presented was a plausible scenario.
I don't even understand people like you, who straight out refuses to even mention the suspicious betting. What's the point? Why even bother posting? Imagine if everyone mysteriously "forgot" relevant stuff from the story, and people were arguing here whether MKP even played that day or not, haha.
After reading through this thread, I'm actually more disappointed in people in general for making BS posts like these, than in MKP. At least he could have reasons I can get behind, like being short on money - still not makes him innocent, obviously -, but fanboyism is no excuse for making posts like these, which eject common sense.
/rant
You are talking about betting lines as if they are a form of solid proof which can only be explained by match fixing.
I'm sure they're a damning element, but I like how most people on TL probably didn't even know the term "betting lines" until some betters started explaining how they make a living, and now everyone is shouting "BETTING LINES!" like it's some sort of absolute proof. I'm myself unfortunately convinced that MarineKing matchfixed in this case, but "betting lines" are not a perfect model of real life, goddammit. It's not because a given betting line says someone got less than 1% of winning that the reality carries the same probability distribution. They merely represent an educated guess by other people (betters) as to how the situation should be.
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake.
They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on.
wow... say a boxer enters the ring, keeps his fists down, sticks his chin out and waits for over a minute until his confused opponent decides to knock him the fuck out. Bets are also voided because of extremely abnormal betting on a first round knockout. His coach and family 'grill' him and he said he didn't throw the match. Case closed?
Of course he's going to lie to save face and of course those closest to him will defend him. None of this is surprising or reason to move on.
Guys, is there a link to the match or something? I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start?
On April 21 2015 23:53 LA_Morello wrote: Guys, is there a link to the match or something? I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start?
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake.
Sorry, but posts like these make me sick.
It's not that you assumed I did not read the whole thread, yet interestingly it's one more dull accusation.
It is because you take up your pitchfork due to a mere suspicion. I repeat it again: You can't prove it. Period. I find it suspicious as well, but I don't tell people: "Yep, clearly, that's fraud!" It's simply not what civilized people do. As I said, I am very sure fixed matches exist in highest professional sports, but as long as I can't prove it, I have to keep my mouth shut when I am sober.
Look, I can do the same: To me, all of your posts make you suspicious of terrifying cute ducklings. According to your logic, I don't have to prove that, you duckling-frightener.
To cut it short, I still think it can be idiocy. If you watch professional sports, idiocies happen. It as well can be a fraud, but that's something we can't tell for sure (I think he would've done it in a less obvious, but that's as well speculation). Shitstorming or pitchforking people is generally a thing that disgusts me. They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on and conclude the world is bad.
You can be a kid sitting in science class and demand 100% perfect proof if you want, but we already have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The confluence of factors cannot be handwaved away by virtue of not being 100% perfect proof. The betting lines were a result of deliberate betting odds manipulation. The lack of reaper poking around after what he scouted is simply too abnormal. The minimap and the third cc....simply too abnormal. It is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
On April 21 2015 23:53 LA_Morello wrote: Guys, is there a link to the match or something? I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start?
Just search marineking vs byul on youtube and you will find it.
Speaking of vids, it would be nice if someone would make a compilation video of all the facts we have, aiming at people who never heard about the topic, covering :
-Trend of Pinnacle voiding bets (what voiding meants, how betting lines work) -Matchfixing being confirmed a big problem @korean leagues by Rekrul/Huk/RichardLewis/ -A pro's/casters opinion on the MKP-Byul game -Briefly explaining the probability theory (what are the odds of that match not being fixed based on the facts we know)
I feel like the last bit is important, given how many people are still clueless and convienced that "betting lines mean nothing" and dont realize what a huge impact it has on probability of a match being fixed or not.
On April 21 2015 22:05 Berry_CruncH wrote: Marineking was without a doubt NOT the betting favorite, he has not been playing well for a while now. Not being the betting favorite + large amounts of money being bet on Byul would mean the payout would have been relatively small (which i would think does not outweigh the risk of matchfixing). And honestly this isn't even the most incompetent thing that's happened on a broadcasted match. There was a game where JAEDONG had blocked his own ramp and half his army was stuck and he didn't notice it for almost 10 minutes.
And the most important thing is innocent until proven guilty, what we have here is one coincidence. This is purely a witch-hunt there is no real evidence against him from what we know.
Come on, that was a game of BW during mixed Proleague where all players were only practicing Starcraft 2. Jaedong didn't lose the game and there were no indicators that something was off with the match from outward sources. Also stuff actually happened in that game, it's not like Jaedong was sitting on 1 base ignoring a pile of hydra's on his ramp. There was nothing going on in MKP's game in contrast.
The fact that MKP wasn't the favorite from the get go doesn't mean it isn't still rewarding to invest a huge amount of money knowing it's guaranteed profit.
the broken english might have something to do with it, but i don't believe this statement for a second, not even a little bit.
they say they proved he didn't fix? how? show us what proof you're talking about.
show us the proof the replay showed that a top korean pro who has been playing the game pretty much all day each day for 5 years not including BW, didn't deliberately ignore a spinecrawler and creep that was on his screen for minutes, which he was also visibly checking on the minimap which can be seen on the player camera.
no statement was ever going to convince me because of how obvious it was.. but this was a piss poor attempt imo
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake.
Sorry, but posts like these make me sick.
It's not that you assumed I did not read the whole thread, yet interestingly it's one more dull accusation.
It is because you take up your pitchfork due to a mere suspicion. I repeat it again: You can't prove it. Period. I find it suspicious as well, but I don't tell people: "Yep, clearly, that's fraud!" It's simply not what civilized people do. As I said, I am very sure fixed matches exist in highest professional sports, but as long as I can't prove it, I have to keep my mouth shut when I am sober.
Look, I can do the same: To me, all of your posts make you suspicious of terrifying cute ducklings. According to your logic, I don't have to prove that, you duckling-frightener.
To cut it short, I still think it can be idiocy. If you watch professional sports, idiocies happen. It as well can be a fraud, but that's something we can't tell for sure (I think he would've done it in a less obvious, but that's as well speculation). Shitstorming or pitchforking people is generally a thing that disgusts me. They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on and conclude the world is bad.
You can be a kid sitting in science class and demand 100% perfect proof if you want, but we already have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The confluence of factors cannot be handwaved away by virtue of not being 100% perfect proof. The betting lines were a result of deliberate betting odds manipulation. The lack of reaper poking around after what he scouted is simply too abnormal. The minimap and the third cc....simply too abnormal. It is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
No, it's not in any way proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What you're saying is that MVP should take the betting lines of a site which provides an in Korea illegal activity as proof that one of their players have thrown a match. The only thing it actually proves is irregular betting, so unless you actually have proof that MK have been in contact with bettors there's nothing available that couldn't be explained by him just playing exceedingly poorly, not looking at the minimap, or misjudging a blip on the map for an OL or whatever. It also excludes the possibility of Byul being a matchfixer as well, or internal leaks of BO's etc.
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake.
Sorry, but posts like these make me sick.
It's not that you assumed I did not read the whole thread, yet interestingly it's one more dull accusation.
It is because you take up your pitchfork due to a mere suspicion. I repeat it again: You can't prove it. Period. I find it suspicious as well, but I don't tell people: "Yep, clearly, that's fraud!" It's simply not what civilized people do. As I said, I am very sure fixed matches exist in highest professional sports, but as long as I can't prove it, I have to keep my mouth shut when I am sober.
Look, I can do the same: To me, all of your posts make you suspicious of terrifying cute ducklings. According to your logic, I don't have to prove that, you duckling-frightener.
To cut it short, I still think it can be idiocy. If you watch professional sports, idiocies happen. It as well can be a fraud, but that's something we can't tell for sure (I think he would've done it in a less obvious, but that's as well speculation). Shitstorming or pitchforking people is generally a thing that disgusts me. They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on and conclude the world is bad.
You can be a kid sitting in science class and demand 100% perfect proof if you want, but we already have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The confluence of factors cannot be handwaved away by virtue of not being 100% perfect proof. The betting lines were a result of deliberate betting odds manipulation. The lack of reaper poking around after what he scouted is simply too abnormal. The minimap and the third cc....simply too abnormal. It is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
No, it's not in any way proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What you're saying is that MVP should take the betting lines of a site which provides an in Korea illegal activity as proof that one of their players have thrown a match. The only thing it actually proves is irregular betting, so unless you actually have proof that MK have been in contact with bettors there's nothing available that couldn't be explained by him just playing exceedingly poorly, not looking at the minimap, or misjudging a blip on the map for an OL or whatever. It also excludes the possibility of Byul being a matchfixer as well, or internal leaks of BO's etc.
It's not any one thing that provides proof, it's the confluence of factors. The "exceedingly poor" play is in fact inexplicable. The OL theory is invalid by the way, a progamer who's doing nothing but sitting in one base knows that blip is not in his current vision. Do you know how easy it is for even me to macro one base while doing nothing else? It's not hard, and you're not thinking about a million things while doing it. MarineKing knew it was proxy hatch AND DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WITH TWO REAPERS TO FIND A PROXY HATCH. Think about that. He was sitting on one base and did not notice his minimap for over a minute. The betting lines were deliberately manipulated. it is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
This quote out of totalbiscuit blows my mind.
The burden of proof is absolutely on the accuser. However, when the accuser has a heaping pile of evidence, it's not unreasonable to expect the defense to have something, anything, more than " Your honor, my client says he didn't do it!" as a counter argument.
Proving innocence is not the burden of the defense. However, in the face of significant evidence pointing towards guilt, it does become the burden of the defense to mount something to even the scales if they actually expect anyone unbiased to believe them.
1. MKP derps up all the time. Nobody is perfect. -- He could've been matchfixing before as well. But setting that aside, several progamers have commented that this particular game looks fixed and is totally inexplicable, whereas lots of MK's previous losses due to BO losses (etc.) could've been just simple mistakes.
2. The Pinnacle lines could've been caused by a stupid bettor/Pinnacle wanting publicity/it doesn't really mean anything. -- This has been explained many, many, many times already. In short: no. The betting lines are evidence that either somebody has inside information or MK threw. And given point #1....
3. Team MVP investigated him, so he's clean. -- At no point did anybody say they checked MK's bank accounts for suspicious deposits, his Skype logs, interviewed his friends/family/roommates to see if he's been throwing around money he doesn't have, check his mattress for wads of cash, etc. The MVP statement was really nothing more than "we asked him a few times and he assured us he wasn't doing anything wrong!" Well, the CJ Coach trusted SaviOr and didn't think he was matchfixing either...
And finally: 4. There is not enough evidence to convict him. Nobody is saying lock him up now and throw away the key. We are clamoring for KeSPA and Blizzard to investigate thoroughly instead of sweeping this under the rug.
I say that anybody who cares for this to be resolved, email KeSPA, Proleague, and major sponsors, and tell them that you're not going to watch any more games until this matter is resolved.
Ok to all the people saying there's proof without doubt you will have no problem betting all your belongings on him matchfixing for nothing it return since you're so confident. Can someone lock this now, everyone goes in loops. Only thread on this should be when they release the replay.
On April 22 2015 01:03 Nebuchad wrote: "They should have released the replay so that everyone can stick to their positions into one more thread!"
Please.
Replay will be huge. At minimum, it would be easy to see 1) did he see the spine or not 2) when he saw a creep @his base.
Implying that replay would not be heplfull and "will only result in more debates" is flat our retarded.
A) Replay shows suspicious vision from MKP. You have something suspicious. That is already the case right now without the replay, we already have the suspicious situation which demands an investigation. Nothing has changed. B) Replay shows nothing suspicious in the vision of MKP. Doesn't matter, we already have enough suspicious things to demand an investigation. Nothing has changed.
Well, something has changed. We have one more thread to reiterate it and antagonize other people for no reason. Please, feel free to keep at it.
On April 22 2015 01:15 LightSpectra wrote: I say that anybody who cares for this to be resolved, email KeSPA, Proleague, and major sponsors, and tell them that you're not going to watch any more games until this matter is resolved.
Can I still watch the games, but say to them that I'm not?
On April 22 2015 01:27 Nebuchad wrote: Well, something has changed. We have one more thread to reiterate it and antagonize other people for no reason. Please, feel free to keep at it.
Dont worry, we will have one more thread anyway soon enough when Pinnacle will void another bet.
On April 22 2015 01:27 Nebuchad wrote: Well, something has changed. We have one more thread to reiterate it and antagonize other people for no reason. Please, feel free to keep at it.
Dont worry, we will have one moer thread anyway soon enough when Pinnacle will void another bet.
It really pains me to see how much blind hate and negativity there is towards this case. In most peoples eyes MK is already guilty, even tho they do not have any means to prove this. Im pretty sure if the statement was "Yea he fixed the match." with just as little evidence, most people would have been satisfied.
This thread right here is what witch hunts were way back - accusations that cannot be proven (by you). Without any actual evidence I believe in the saying "Innocent until proven guilty".
I on the other hand will be sleeping better this night, knowing that the team did not give in under the pressure of enraged (partially) sheepish community.
On April 22 2015 01:03 Nebuchad wrote: "They should have released the replay so that everyone can stick to their positions into one more thread!"
Please.
Replay will be huge. At minimum, it would be easy to see 1) did he see the spine or not 2) when he saw a creep @his base.
Implying that replay would not be heplfull and "will only result in more debates" is flat our retarded.
Replay could only be used to condemn him further, not innocent him, hence I don't think Kespa, who's suspiciously silent about all this, wants to release replays... Obviously if he saw the spine or creep much earlier, he's 100% guilty (all the more so if he faked a surprise reaction afterwards). But if he did not, you people will find anything in the replay to slander him anyway, that's why it's not that useful.
I'd much rather have Kespa deal with all that gracefully behind the scenes, and seriously investigate. The community doesn't need to be involved, if anything, we need to nag Kespa for an investigation, not team MVP for a replay.
Edit: And to reiterate, I myself am (was? ) a big MarineKing fan and I do think that he did matchfix, so I'm not defending him. I know he's legally innocent until proven guilty, this doesn't prevent me to have an opinion about it, but I do think we shouldn't pressure for useless things like a replay which will do nothing other than incriminate him further even if he's innocent.
Pretty horrible of them to say "proved wrong" and " all evidence gave us the same answer", when all they've stated they've done was talk to MarineKing, and watched the replay.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote: It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
Watch above. Then reread their post. Just because they use the fansy words, doesn't make it true. Come on dude! You're better than this!
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
Wrong. If they'd laid down the evidence and proof they claim to have... There would be exactly 0 people arguying that he cheated. Because it would actually be proven that he didn't do it. As it stands, they didn't. They just said something and hoped people would buy it.
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up.
I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion.
Proof has to go beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, a way to prove match-fixing beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically using the game played, would be to see if MKP ever saw the spine or the creep in his base before the time he looked surprised seconds before the lings break in.
We know two things: MKP is a progamer with many many thousands of games played. MKP looks surprised at 5:50 in game time.
If, using the replay, we can see that his main screen (not the minimap) looks over to the spine/creep earlier, then knowing the two aforementioned facts, only two conclusions can be drawn. The first (and the much more unlikely of the two), MKP is the worst progamer in not only SC2, but in ESPORTS history. After scouting no expo from Z, and a proxy spine (and therefore hatch) at his backdoor, he was surprised that he was getting cheesed when the lings busted in? MVP would do well to let him go as soon as they could. The second, much more plausible explanation, is that he threw the game. Given how unlikely the first explanation is, I would feel like the explanation of match-fixing would easily remove all reasonable doubt and it would do the same for the majority of fans alike.
This feels like it is obviously the salient point and that's why I'm annoyed it wasn't specifically addressed in the response from MVP.
I really like this post. People seem to forget that by assuming MKP is innocent, they are agreeing with the bolded statement as well.
Most common argument I've seen: doing "MKP things" is hilarious. That shows that the people defending him have such little faith in his skill/abilities that it's "okay" to make such mind-numbingly bad decisions in-game, despite being paid to put in thousands of hours to excel at the game? Absolutely disgusting game by progamer standards. By Platinum standards...
Why are you guys so salty about it lol. As I've said in my earlier posts, I find it absolutely hilarious that he either threw the game, or played so bad that everyone thought he threw the game. You can't really find games this bad too often, and I always had a good laugh when it happens.
Unless you're a fan.
I don't get it, you're agreeing with me? I do indeed find it funny that it's possible for people to say "hey, it's fine, MKP's just really really bad." And they're fans?
On April 21 2015 16:40 North2 wrote: What if...he forgot those destructible rocks can be destroyed by enemies? I've done that before. I'm so tunneled into one thing that I forget about several other important aspects of the game.
That said, your explanation bumped my 8:2 odds up to 15:1 that he was probably throwing the game.
I apologize for being blunt but... that's the reason why you're not in a Proleague team playing a televised match :s
You seriously don't know the difference between BEING really really bad vs. HAVING a really really bad game? Also, since when does being a fan 100% revolve around the player in question not being bad?
Your post comes across very insulting and ignorant.
On April 22 2015 01:35 ZeroReverse wrote: It really pains me to see how much blind hate and negativity there is towards this case. In most peoples eyes MK is already guilty, even tho they do not have any means to prove this. Im pretty sure if the statement was "Yea he fixed the match." with just as little evidence, most people would have been satisfied.
This thread right here is what witch hunts were way back - accusations that cannot be proven (by you). Without any actual evidence I believe in the saying "Innocent until proven guilty".
I on the other hand will be sleeping better this night, knowing that the team did not give in under the pressure of enraged (partially) sheepish community.
It pains me to see how blind and naive can people be if they think "there is no actual evidence".
You can sleep better all you want, and call rational people "sheepish" while being totally clueless yourself, but the thing is - even though we dont have "proof beyond reasonable doubt" (highest level of proof), we have enough facts to conclude that the match was fixed with ~85% to 99.9% probability.
Instead of repeating "innocent until proven guilty" over and over without really understanding it, you should google "Reasonable Doubt V. Balance Of Probability" and educate yourself.
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake.
Sorry, but posts like these make me sick.
It's not that you assumed I did not read the whole thread, yet interestingly it's one more dull accusation.
It is because you take up your pitchfork due to a mere suspicion. I repeat it again: You can't prove it. Period. I find it suspicious as well, but I don't tell people: "Yep, clearly, that's fraud!" It's simply not what civilized people do. As I said, I am very sure fixed matches exist in highest professional sports, but as long as I can't prove it, I have to keep my mouth shut when I am sober.
Look, I can do the same: To me, all of your posts make you suspicious of terrifying cute ducklings. According to your logic, I don't have to prove that, you duckling-frightener.
To cut it short, I still think it can be idiocy. If you watch professional sports, idiocies happen. It as well can be a fraud, but that's something we can't tell for sure (I think he would've done it in a less obvious, but that's as well speculation). Shitstorming or pitchforking people is generally a thing that disgusts me. They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on and conclude the world is bad.
So I'm a jackass because I highly assume he indeed participated in matchfixing, and the explanation which could ruin our reasons for suspicion requires Jesus Christ himself to reg an account here and say we are wrong, while you bashing me (or us) for not bringing 10000000000% evidence. Hate to break it to you, but your world is more twisted than ours (at least based on this argument), and the single thing which could net you followers for your cause is the illusion that you are the good guy who defends justice. It sounds damn good, that we are some evil people from the Middle-Ages who seek to destroy this poor soul, and you demand justice and a perfect evidence, but it is just unreal.
You remind me of white-knights with this mindless defense. There is MKP with a blazing gun in his hand, there is a dead body in front of him, ripped with bullets, and you are the guy who lashes out on me highly assuming he killed the guy with "did you see him shoot? no you did not, end of discussion, move on. what a jerk!!". Yeah, ok.
I don't recommend you to watch or read the news, because it would upset you beyond imagination. People cheat, people lie, people are power and money hungry. People can stab you in the back after knowing them for 10+ years, and let me not go on an off-topic rant about the extremes, because these are just the everyday stuff. The world, where a team investigates its' own posterboy player and comes out with the "innocent" result without actually coming forward with any evidence other than "he said so!" is a joke. Zero. It's actually less than that, because if you have a good PR team, you do so much more than releasing an empty statement X weeks too late. Hell, you - and some others here - manage to reach the conclusion to pooint fingers at me/us for not having enough proof, which just makes it look like some mediocre sketch from a comedy. If I mentioned white-kngiht, I guess it's just fitting to remind you of a certain black-knight who was kind enough to offer tie after his legs and arms were cut off. At least he offered it, but you actually condemn us for not agreeing with a tie. Such bs.
On April 22 2015 01:35 ZeroReverse wrote: Without any actual evidence I believe in the saying "Innocent until proven guilty".
How a rational person can look at this and say we have no actual evidence is pretty mind-boggling.
He's not the first, and they are here to say. I wish I studied psychology, because I just want to dissect their minds and know what they thinking and how do they reach these conclusions.
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
Wrong. If they'd laid down the evidence and proof they claim to have... There would be exactly 0 people arguying that he cheated. Because it would actually be proven that he didn't do it. As it stands, they didn't. They just said something and hoped people would buy it.
What the... they don't have to prove anything, dammit, that's not how this shit works haha. Nor do they have to release a replay that could incriminate them.
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
Wrong. If they'd laid down the evidence and proof they claim to have... There would be exactly 0 people arguying that he cheated. Because it would actually be proven that he didn't do it. As it stands, they didn't. They just said something and hoped people would buy it.
What the... they don't have to prove anything, dammit, that's not how this shit works haha. Nor do they have to release a replay that could incriminate them.
He's talking about the statement. MVP claims they have evidence that Marineking didn't matchfix. They're choosing not to show that evidence.
While I get some evidence isn't mean for the public, why not reveal it to someone trustworthy who's not biased. As it is, it's only the team that has the evidence - the team which wants him to be innocent.
Thus the statement they made doesn't really mean anything (which I expected, and I guess many others did too). But if they had provided the evidence they claim they have then obviously it would've meant a lot.
So they don't have to prove anything, but it's not a reliable source when they're this biased.
edit: also I think we're reaching the closing point of this thread :D
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
Wrong. If they'd laid down the evidence and proof they claim to have... There would be exactly 0 people arguying that he cheated. Because it would actually be proven that he didn't do it. As it stands, they didn't. They just said something and hoped people would buy it.
What the... they don't have to prove anything, dammit, that's not how this shit works haha. Nor do they have to release a replay that could incriminate them.
He's talking about the statement. MVP claims they have evidence that Marineking didn't matchfix. They're choosing not to show that evidence.
While I get some evidence isn't mean for the public, why not reveal it to someone trustworthy who's not biased. As it is, it's only the team that has the evidence - the team which wants him to be innocent.
Thus the statement they made doesn't really mean anything (which I expected, and I guess many others did too). But if they had provided the evidence they claim they have then obviously it would've meant a lot.
So they don't have to prove anything, but it's not a reliable source when they're this biased.
Well, you don't know, Kespa could very well have investigated the replay a long time ago and not made any comment on it. They probably can ask for the replay. It's actually interesting because if MVP said "replay doesn't show anything" and Kespa comes out later and say "replay proves he's throwing the game", MVP will really have shat the bed :/
Edit: Sorry, I'm not actually sure that Kespa has the team replays by default, I misspoke, but they can probably ask for it.
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
Wrong. If they'd laid down the evidence and proof they claim to have... There would be exactly 0 people arguying that he cheated. Because it would actually be proven that he didn't do it. As it stands, they didn't. They just said something and hoped people would buy it.
What the... they don't have to prove anything, dammit, that's not how this shit works haha. Nor do they have to release a replay that could incriminate them.
He's talking about the statement. MVP claims they have evidence that Marineking didn't matchfix. They're choosing not to show that evidence.
While I get some evidence isn't mean for the public, why not reveal it to someone trustworthy who's not biased. As it is, it's only the team that has the evidence - the team which wants him to be innocent.
Thus the statement they made doesn't really mean anything (which I expected, and I guess many others did too). But if they had provided the evidence they claim they have then obviously it would've meant a lot.
So they don't have to prove anything, but it's not a reliable source when they're this biased.
Well, you don't know, Kespa could very well have investigated the replay a long time ago and not made any comment on it. They do have the replay too. It's actually interesting because if MVP said "replay doesn't show anything" and Kespa comes out later and say "replay proves he's throwing the game", MVP will really have shat the bed :/
Yeah I would love for Kespa to say anything really. But they're also biased, it will hurt the scene whenever all this gets fully revealed. Honestly just mentioning it is bad for them in the short term, so I assume they'll say nothing.
On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote: I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake.
Sorry, but posts like these make me sick.
It's not that you assumed I did not read the whole thread, yet interestingly it's one more dull accusation.
It is because you take up your pitchfork due to a mere suspicion. I repeat it again: You can't prove it. Period. I find it suspicious as well, but I don't tell people: "Yep, clearly, that's fraud!" It's simply not what civilized people do. As I said, I am very sure fixed matches exist in highest professional sports, but as long as I can't prove it, I have to keep my mouth shut when I am sober.
Look, I can do the same: To me, all of your posts make you suspicious of terrifying cute ducklings. According to your logic, I don't have to prove that, you duckling-frightener.
To cut it short, I still think it can be idiocy. If you watch professional sports, idiocies happen. It as well can be a fraud, but that's something we can't tell for sure (I think he would've done it in a less obvious, but that's as well speculation). Shitstorming or pitchforking people is generally a thing that disgusts me. They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on and conclude the world is bad.
You can be a kid sitting in science class and demand 100% perfect proof if you want, but we already have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The confluence of factors cannot be handwaved away by virtue of not being 100% perfect proof. The betting lines were a result of deliberate betting odds manipulation. The lack of reaper poking around after what he scouted is simply too abnormal. The minimap and the third cc....simply too abnormal. It is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
No, it's not in any way proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What you're saying is that MVP should take the betting lines of a site which provides an in Korea illegal activity as proof that one of their players have thrown a match. The only thing it actually proves is irregular betting, so unless you actually have proof that MK have been in contact with bettors there's nothing available that couldn't be explained by him just playing exceedingly poorly, not looking at the minimap, or misjudging a blip on the map for an OL or whatever. It also excludes the possibility of Byul being a matchfixer as well, or internal leaks of BO's etc.
It's not any one thing that provides proof, it's the confluence of factors. The "exceedingly poor" play is in fact inexplicable. The OL theory is invalid by the way, a progamer who's doing nothing but sitting in one base knows that blip is not in his current vision. Do you know how easy it is for even me to macro one base while doing nothing else? It's not hard, and you're not thinking about a million things while doing it. MarineKing knew it was proxy hatch AND DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WITH TWO REAPERS TO FIND A PROXY HATCH. Think about that. He was sitting on one base and did not notice his minimap for over a minute. The betting lines were deliberately manipulated. it is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Dear god, no. It is not proof beyond reasonable doubt. How hard is it to understand that all it is is circumstantial evidence? If you don't have any proof of him directly staring on a spinecrawler, message logs or other communication with bettors, you don't have any definite proof. Until you got anything like that, it's all circumstantial and nothing that MVP would be willing to throw MK under the bus for.
K bro. He thought the spine crawler in the fog of war was an overlord, didn't feel the need to check for a proxy hatch, thought 3 CC is viable vs proxy hatch, took several seconds to notice creep up against his building, and an irrational better deliberately manipulated lines such that he could maximize his profit if MKP lost game 1.
On April 22 2015 01:41 Mozdk wrote: Pretty horrible of them to say "proved wrong" and " all evidence gave us the same answer", when all they've stated they've done was talk to MarineKing, and watched the replay.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote: It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
Watch above. Then reread their post. Just because they use the fansy words, doesn't make it true. Come on dude! You're better than this!
What else is there to do? All the reliable evidence MVP can obtain comes from watching the replay from MKP's camera perspective and asking him what he was thinking during all the significant points of the game.
On April 22 2015 02:15 Doodsmack wrote: K bro. He thought the spine crawler in the fog of war was an overlord, didn't feel the need to check for a proxy hatch, thought 3 CC is viable vs proxy hatch, took several seconds to notice creep up against his building, and an irrational better deliberately manipulated lines such that he could maximize his profit if MKP lost game 1.
Let's all pretend we can't judge probability.
Let's all pretend circumstantial evidence and vague probabilities is enough for judging guilt in any developed justice system. If MKP matchfixed, he's guilty of a crime. Him playing bad is in no way definite proof since there's so many ways to explain it. I'm not sure how this is a difficult concept to grasp?
On April 22 2015 02:15 Doodsmack wrote: K bro. He thought the spine crawler in the fog of war was an overlord, didn't feel the need to check for a proxy hatch, thought 3 CC is viable vs proxy hatch, took several seconds to notice creep up against his building, and an irrational better deliberately manipulated lines such that he could maximize his profit if MKP lost game 1.
Let's all pretend we can't judge probability.
Let's all pretend circumstantial evidence and vague probabilities is enough for judging guilt in any developed justice system. If MKP matchfixed, he's guilty of a crime. Him playing bad is in no way definite proof since there's so many ways to explain it. I'm not sure how this is a difficult concept to grasp?
this isn't a court room, or a justice system. We aren't deciding if MKP goes to jail, we are deciding if we want to support Proleague (or the Korean SC2 scene in general). We're deciding if it's worth watching or taking seriously. There is enough evidence to decide that it's not.
On April 22 2015 01:41 Mozdk wrote: Pretty horrible of them to say "proved wrong" and " all evidence gave us the same answer", when all they've stated they've done was talk to MarineKing, and watched the replay.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote: It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
Watch above. Then reread their post. Just because they use the fansy words, doesn't make it true. Come on dude! You're better than this!
What else is there to do? All the reliable evidence MVP can obtain comes from watching the replay from MKP's camera perspective and asking him what he was thinking during all the significant points of the game.
...asking him what he was thinking and then providing the community with zero example of any of these supposed lines of thinking. But trust us, we're sure it's all innocent.
On April 22 2015 01:41 Mozdk wrote: Pretty horrible of them to say "proved wrong" and " all evidence gave us the same answer", when all they've stated they've done was talk to MarineKing, and watched the replay.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote: It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
Watch above. Then reread their post. Just because they use the fansy words, doesn't make it true. Come on dude! You're better than this!
What else is there to do? All the reliable evidence MVP can obtain comes from watching the replay from MKP's camera perspective and asking him what he was thinking during all the significant points of the game.
They could bring in people from outside for a second opinion. They could look at the Korean betting sites to see if any other suspicious games jump out. They should ask their players if any of them had suspicious contacts or offers to fix games. Maybe ask around the other teams.
When a player is approached to throw a game they need to report it to their coach and the police needs to get involved every single time. Most sports have a rule of this sort. Snooker world champion John Higgins got a 6 month ban when he failed to report an offer. It was actually a sting operation by a British tabloid and apparently he never did throw the game. But the fact that he didn't report the incident was enough for a ban.
Lots of football match-fixers were caught with plain police work. They started with suspicious games and betting lines and used surveillance and wiretaps to gather evidence. Throwing games for money is fraud. The teams' job shouldn't be to decide if someone is guilty is not: their job is to keep an eye out for anything suspicious and refer the matter to the police. That and set up ethics rules that make match fixing more difficult and helps the police do their job.
On April 22 2015 01:41 Mozdk wrote: Pretty horrible of them to say "proved wrong" and " all evidence gave us the same answer", when all they've stated they've done was talk to MarineKing, and watched the replay.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote: It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
Watch above. Then reread their post. Just because they use the fansy words, doesn't make it true. Come on dude! You're better than this!
What else is there to do? All the reliable evidence MVP can obtain comes from watching the replay from MKP's camera perspective and asking him what he was thinking during all the significant points of the game.
On April 22 2015 02:15 Doodsmack wrote: K bro. He thought the spine crawler in the fog of war was an overlord, didn't feel the need to check for a proxy hatch, thought 3 CC is viable vs proxy hatch, took several seconds to notice creep up against his building, and an irrational better deliberately manipulated lines such that he could maximize his profit if MKP lost game 1.
Let's all pretend we can't judge probability.
Let's all pretend circumstantial evidence and vague probabilities is enough for judging guilt in any developed justice system. If MKP matchfixed, he's guilty of a crime. Him playing bad is in no way definite proof since there's so many ways to explain it. I'm not sure how this is a difficult concept to grasp?
this isn't a court room, or a justice system. We aren't deciding if MKP goes to jail, we are deciding if we want to support Proleague (or the Korean SC2 scene in general). We're deciding if it's worth watching or taking seriously. There is enough evidence to decide that it's not.
If there's proof of matchfixing, it will end up in a courtroom, just like last time this happened. The most convincing evidence so far is betting lines, but that doesn't give any definite proof that can directly implicate MK just because he played the way he did. As I've said several times already, it's circumstantial. And "we" apparently had already decided he was guilty before MVP even released their statement without even considering what they say, or the fact that PL and CJ also have access to the replay. If that's enough for you to pass guilt, fine, but the evidence is inconclusive as is.
On April 22 2015 02:15 Doodsmack wrote: K bro. He thought the spine crawler in the fog of war was an overlord, didn't feel the need to check for a proxy hatch, thought 3 CC is viable vs proxy hatch, took several seconds to notice creep up against his building, and an irrational better deliberately manipulated lines such that he could maximize his profit if MKP lost game 1.
Let's all pretend we can't judge probability.
Let's all pretend circumstantial evidence and vague probabilities is enough for judging guilt in any developed justice system. If MKP matchfixed, he's guilty of a crime. Him playing bad is in no way definite proof since there's so many ways to explain it. I'm not sure how this is a difficult concept to grasp?
You're right it would not hold up in a developed justice system, but that's not what I'm arguing. (Casey Anthony's case didn't hold up either btw. And no she's not the only one)
Lol @ you calling the probability vague. Use your knowledge of starcraft in combination with basic logical reasoning skills, and I combination with the correlation of manipulated betting lines. Basic logical reasoning achieved.
On April 22 2015 02:15 Doodsmack wrote: K bro. He thought the spine crawler in the fog of war was an overlord, didn't feel the need to check for a proxy hatch, thought 3 CC is viable vs proxy hatch, took several seconds to notice creep up against his building, and an irrational better deliberately manipulated lines such that he could maximize his profit if MKP lost game 1.
Let's all pretend we can't judge probability.
Let's all pretend circumstantial evidence and vague probabilities is enough for judging guilt in any developed justice system. If MKP matchfixed, he's guilty of a crime. Him playing bad is in no way definite proof since there's so many ways to explain it. I'm not sure how this is a difficult concept to grasp?
As others have pointed out, this is very binary thinking, almost to the point of a straw man.
There hasn't been an official investigation (unless MVP really did and just withheld the details, but reading the statement it looks there was no investigation just a talk with MKP). KeSPA hasn't even dignified any of the *5* games with a statement. After the San-Dark game Pinnacle reached out the KeSPA and apparently KeSPA didn't even dignify them with a private response / acknowledgement. They gave a statement to the Olimoley issue pretty quickly after all.
People want to see those things. They want to see some action taken, anything substantial.
People want to support SC2 as long as they can trust the integrity of the games and right now for a lot of people (including several admins/staff I should note) it hasn't been demonstrated that the integrity of the games are being protected. That's going to make people question whether they should keep watching / paying for Proleague.
Add on what Rekrul and the other anonymous user (identity vouched for my admins as well) about Korean match-fixing and it's totally reasonable that some people don't buy this statement by MVP.
In case it wasn't clear, none of this has to do with putting MKP in jail.
On April 22 2015 02:15 Doodsmack wrote: K bro. He thought the spine crawler in the fog of war was an overlord, didn't feel the need to check for a proxy hatch, thought 3 CC is viable vs proxy hatch, took several seconds to notice creep up against his building, and an irrational better deliberately manipulated lines such that he could maximize his profit if MKP lost game 1.
Let's all pretend we can't judge probability.
Let's all pretend circumstantial evidence and vague probabilities is enough for judging guilt in any developed justice system. If MKP matchfixed, he's guilty of a crime. Him playing bad is in no way definite proof since there's so many ways to explain it. I'm not sure how this is a difficult concept to grasp?
As others have pointed out, this is very binary thinking, almost to the point of a straw man.
There hasn't been an official investigation (unless MVP really did and just withheld the details, but reading the statement it looks there was no investigation just a talk with MKP). KeSPA hasn't even dignified any of the *5* games with a statement. After the San-Dark game Pinnacle reached out the KeSPA and apparently KeSPA didn't even dignify them with a private response / acknowledgement. They gave a statement to the Olimoley issue pretty quickly after all.
People want to see those things. They want to see some action taken, anything substantial.
People want to support SC2 as long as they can trust the integrity of the games and right now for a lot of people (including several admins/staff I should note) it hasn't been demonstrated that the integrity of the games are being protected. That's going to make people question whether they should keep watching / paying for Proleague.
Add on what Rekrul and the other anonymous user (identity vouched for my admins as well) about Korean match-fixing and it's totally reasonable that some people don't buy this statement by MVP.
In case it wasn't clear, none of this has to do with putting MKP in jail.
On April 22 2015 04:15 matthy wrote: i dont get why it should be a fix? Yes he played really really poorly but looking at the score, and oponent There isnt even a reason to fix!
CJ would have won 100% Plus MKP was tilted from the start and there could be 100 other reasons maybe of stress no sleep you don't know that.
Using your logic of CJ would have won 100%. "If I'm going to lose anyway why not make some money out of it?"
Matchfixing has happened and obviously neither MVP nor Kespa is interested in further "investigations", this describes the status SC 2 has right now, sad but true.
Do people realize "100% perfect proof" isn't going to happen unless we have people directly involved in the possible matchfix admitting to it or get caught somehow discussing it? Even if the replay gets released and it shows that MKP "noticed" things and "ignored" them in a suspicious way, one could argue that still doesn't constitute perfect proof because he could have had the ultimate brainfart or something.
Basically, in this case, as long as they weren't somehow super careless and let their plans leak to a source that wants to expose them, we are not going to get perfect proof because there is no reason for anyone involved in possible match fixing to incriminate themselves.
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
You missed the part where this was the 5th suspicious game according to Pinnacle. And the suspicious games have concluded in the big money's favor 5 out of 5 times.
You also missed the part where Rekrul reported that match-fixing is an open secret in Korea.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
You also missed the part where Rekrul reported that match-fixing is an open secret in Korea..
Do you have a source on this? It would surprise me very much if this was the case after all the debacle around this subject already.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless ppl who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MarineKing played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
You know, this is like one of the only times where the pitchforking is about a legitimate concern. Have you watched the replay? If not, then you should not comment. To many of us, the evidence is plenty sufficient. We don't necessarily think that he threw the game for money, but many believe that the game was in fact thrown (intentionally lost) by MarineKing and someone had reason to think that he was going to do this.
No one is saying they have 100% proof. No one has 100% proof of anything. They are just saying that the evidence against MarineKing looks so strong that the statement provided by MVP is insufficient in proving his innocence.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter. You can consider the evidence insufficient. I can consider it sufficient.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MarineKing played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
You know, this is like one of the only times where the pitchforking is about a legitimate concern. Have you watched the replay? If not, then you should not comment. To many of us, the evidence is plenty sufficient. We don't necessarily think that he threw the game for money, but many believe that the game was in fact thrown (intentionally lost) by MarineKing and someone had reason to think that he was going to do this.
No one is saying they have 100% proof. No one has 100% proof of anything. They are just saying that the evidence against MarineKing looks so strong that the statement provided by MVP is insufficient in proving his innocence.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter. You can consider the evidence insufficient. I can consider it sufficient.
Oh my god someone trying to hold a reasonable discussion! Thank you, I had almost lost hope..
But let me rebut you: People are saying they KNOW he's cheating, people think the replay in which he's playing poorly is 100% proof, and they want him to get kicked off the team or worse, based on opinions. That is my issue here, not that you have a (strong or otherwise) suspicion.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
That's hardly my argument, that's me telling you to read the topic. Do you really think this has picked up steam merely because of a poor performance by MKP?
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
You also missed the part where Rekrul reported that match-fixing is an open secret in Korea..
Do you have a source on this? It would surprise me very much if this was the case after all the debacle around this subject already.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Reading effort fail.
On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
edit:
On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
That's hardly my argument, that's me telling you to read the topic. Do you really think this has picked up steam merely because of a poor performance by MKP?
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
You also missed the part where Rekrul reported that match-fixing is an open secret in Korea..
Do you have a source on this? It would surprise me very much if this was the case after all the debacle around this subject already.
Calling sources on Rekrul... lol
I'm sorry, I didn't know being a well known person means you're off the hook on providing sufficient proof..
edit: Also, yes, what you did was ad hominem. You provided no actual point of discussion in your first post. Just straight to personal attack. You alongside 4 others. It's not the way to go about making yourself look like you're in the right. It makes you look like you're 2 minutes away from firing up the torches and pitchforks
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
Nice try, but no.
The reason you got such responses is because you posted something moronic, showing that you did not even bother to even read cliffs, without even talking about the small details. Trying to imply that "result would be the same" if you would actually bother to read the thread and use some arguments is a worst cop out i've seen in this thread yet.
On April 22 2015 05:18 Excludos wrote: The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
The truth is, we dont have enough proof to throw him in jail, but we have more than enough proof to say that the probability of him matchfixing outweights probability of him being innocent by a very, very large margin.
Call that despicable all you want, but numbers dont lie.
(also, MKP does not have much of a career left anyway, to be perfectly honest)
On April 22 2015 05:18 Excludos wrote: You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
Ye its been repeated by a people who dont have a rational sceptical mind, mostly thinking that MKP is either totally innocent or 200% guilty, and that noone should ever imply that he is guilty before we have a confession and a videotape of him counting the stacks of cash, and other types of "evidence" that they are waiting for.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
You also missed the part where Rekrul reported that match-fixing is an open secret in Korea..
Do you have a source on this? It would surprise me very much if this was the case after all the debacle around this subject already.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
Nice try, but no.
The reason you got such responses is because you posted something moronic, showing that you did not even bother to even read cliffs, without even talking about the small details. Trying to imply that "result would be the same" if you would actually bother to read the thread and use some arguments is a worst cop out i've seen in this thread yet.
On April 22 2015 05:18 Excludos wrote: The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
The truth is, we dont have enough proof to throw him in jail, but we have more than enough proof to say that the probability of him matchfixing outweights probability of him being innocent by a very, very large margin.
Call that despicable all you want, but numbers dont lie.
(also, MKP does not have much of a career left anyway, to be perfectly honest)
On April 22 2015 05:18 Excludos wrote: You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
Ye its been repeated by a people who dont have a rational sceptical mind, mostly thinking that MKP is either totally innocent or 200% guilty, and that noone should ever imply that he is guity before we have a confession and a videotape of him counting the stacks of cash, and other types of "evidence" that they are waiting for.
I read it all. You still haven't even bothered to argue why you think I haven't. Its just straight to personal attack because of difference in opinion, with no actual point to back it up.
So you don't think you have sufficient proof for court, but its good enough to have him pitchforked? See what I mean about despicable? If its not sufficient proof ITS NOT SUFFICIENT PROOF. I'm all for suspicion guys. Let it fuel you into further investigation, but that is absolutely NOT what where this thread is trailing. You're ready to nail him to a cross and you're attacking anyone who might think otherwise. I'm thoroughly disgusted with this community sometimes.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Reading effort fail.
On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
edit:
On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status.
What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Reading effort fail.
On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
edit:
On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status.
What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument
This is a good summary
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
You also missed the part where Rekrul reported that match-fixing is an open secret in Korea..
Do you have a source on this? It would surprise me very much if this was the case after all the debacle around this subject already.
I read it all. You still haven't even bothered to argue why you think I haven't. Its just straight to personal attack because of difference in opinion, with no actual point to back it up.
No, its because you basically said that "all you have is MKP playing poorly", which is retarded and as very far from the truth.
On April 22 2015 05:36 Excludos wrote: So you don't think you have sufficient proof for court, but its good enough to have him pitchforked?
Pretty much, yep.
On April 22 2015 05:36 Excludos wrote: See what I mean about despicable? If its not sufficient proof ITS NOT SUFFICIENT PROOF.
Google levels of proof and balance of probability.
Expecting people to assume that he is innocent just because we dont have the 'proof beyond reasonable doubt' in our hands is delusional, and not going to happen.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Reading effort fail.
On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
edit:
On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status.
What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Thank you as well. Just a shame you're in the minority of sensible in this thread. I realize I should probably have made a more thought out first post, but honestly I didn't have it in me after reading the past two pages. There is a lot of sense in this summary
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Reading effort fail.
On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
edit:
On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status.
What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument
This is a good summary
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Thank you as well. Just a shame you're in the minority of sensible in this thread. I realize I should probably have made a more thought out first post, but honestly I didn't have it in me after reading the past two pages. There is a lot of sense in this post
The point is, no one wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. If you had read this post, like you should have since you claimed you've read the entire thread, then you would know what has caused all the suspicions. Instead, you simply posted "oh MKP played bad and now you guys all think he's match fixing with any other proof?!". When all of the relevant details have been laid out already as to what can cause suspicion that he might have thrown the match on purpose, then it makes you look like a lazy poster/reader. That's why people get annoyed.
The betting was so skewed (by people betting large amounts of money against MKP) that, near game time:
a $100 bet on Byul to win could win you $9 profit. a $100 bet on MKP to win could win you $709 in profit.
People were SO confident that MKP was going to lose, they continued to pour tons and tons of money into bets for Byul for peanuts in return. THAT is how skewed the betting was. You could probably find a betting line that skewed if Apollo decided to step into a boxing ring with Floyd Mayweather Jr. Maybe.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Reading effort fail.
On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
edit:
On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status.
What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument
This is a good summary
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Thank you as well. Just a shame you're in the minority of sensible in this thread. I realize I should probably have made a more thought out first post, but honestly I didn't have it in me after reading the past two pages. There is a lot of sense in this post
The point is, no one wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. If you had read this post, like you should have since you claimed you've read the entire thread, then you would know what has caused all the suspicions. Instead, you simply posted "oh MKP played bad and now you guys all think he's match fixing with any other proof?!". When all of the relevant details have been laid out already as to what can cause suspicion that he might have thrown the match on purpose, then it makes you look like a lazy poster/reader. That's why people get annoyed.
I knew what caused all the suspicion. I never said I read the entire thread, but I did read the first few pages and the last few. You think I just came in here and said something random without having read a single line, yet after arguing with me for the last page, all I have done is elaborate just how exactly correct my first post is: People are trying to pitchfork him (Even if some are trying to be sensible about it, the majority here does not), for not sufficient proof. Lines like "It wouldn't hold up in court but I know he did it!" proves this.
But I'll let you get back to it. I've had enough. I got exactly 3 sensible answers between 10 ad hominem. I realize when a cause is lost.
On April 22 2015 05:48 meatpop_13 wrote: The betting was so skewed (by people betting large amounts of money against MKP) that, near game time:
a $100 bet on Byul to win could win you $9 profit. a $100 bet on MKP to win could win you $709 in profit.
People were SO confident that MKP was going to lose, they continued to poor tons and tons of money into bets for Byul for peanuts in return. THAT is how skewed the betting was. You could probably find a betting line that skewed if Apollo decided to step into a boxing ring with Floyd Mayweather Jr. Maybe.
Don't be ridiculous. Apollo would knock Mayweather out in under 30 seconds and we all know it
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Reading effort fail.
On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
edit:
On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status.
What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument
You didn't spell it out in this post but I assume your paraphrase of our argument is still "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed". If you had read our arguments in this thread, you would know our argument is not "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed". So long as you are responding to the straw man "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", your reading effort is still "fail" status.
Seriously Excludos, the criticisms you got were well deserved.
I did read the first few pages and the last few
That's just not how it works, pls educate yourself before you Leroy Jenkins yourself in to a thread. If you would've done that you would've noticed that a lot of the posts are reasonable enough. You should also know that this is not exactly the first thread concerning this topic so a lot of people are getting tired of constantly repeating everything again and again.
You can't prove a negative arbitrarily for the masses, it's just a case where for a significant amount of people the existing evidence that they have access to has already been enough proof "beyond reasonable doubt". If Marineking is innocent he's just so freakishly unlucky that these events lined up that I think a hypothetical jury of his peers might end up convicting him any ways.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Reading effort fail.
On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
edit:
On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status.
What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument
This is a good summary
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Thank you as well. Just a shame you're in the minority of sensible in this thread. I realize I should probably have made a more thought out first post, but honestly I didn't have it in me after reading the past two pages. There is a lot of sense in this post
The point is, no one wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. If you had read this post, like you should have since you claimed you've read the entire thread, then you would know what has caused all the suspicions. Instead, you simply posted "oh MKP played bad and now you guys all think he's match fixing with any other proof?!". When all of the relevant details have been laid out already as to what can cause suspicion that he might have thrown the match on purpose, then it makes you look like a lazy poster/reader. That's why people get annoyed.
I knew what caused all the suspicion. I never said I read the entire thread, but I did read the first few pages and the last few. You think I just came in here and said something random without having read a single line, yet after arguing with me for the last page, all I have done is elaborate just how exactly correct my first post is: People are trying to pitchfork him (Even if some are trying to be sensible about it, the majority here does not), for not sufficient proof. Lines like "It wouldn't hold up in court but I know he did it!" proves this.
But I'll let you get back to it. I've had enough. I got exactly 3 sensible answers between 10 ad hominem. I realize when a cause is lost.
Just in case Excludos would answer unlike other people believing in MKP's innocence.
First of all, you should forgive people bashing you for your lack of knowledge on the matter. While for you it is strange that so many people believe that MKP threw the match, for them you are yet another person who came to say "that's not enough evidence" and never ever bothered to respond or understand why they believe in that. Stating your opinion and leaving is not a meaningful contribution to the discussion and dealing with people who do that becomes frustrating after a while.
Next, if you want to defend MKP, could you please give another explanation to recent turn other events other than matchfixing. My summary on the matter was quoted up there.
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on.
I didn't include it because I missed all the sources on it. Would anyone kindly provide the links?
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on.
I didn't include it because I missed all the sources on it. Would anyone kindly provide the links?
What's interesting is that KeSPA actually also gave a statement confirming that this is happening to a lot of players/teams and that the appropriate authorities were notified (presumably the police). The implication being that an investigation would be started, but of course this was a long time ago.
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Reading effort fail.
On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
edit:
On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status.
What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument
This is a good summary
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Thank you as well. Just a shame you're in the minority of sensible in this thread. I realize I should probably have made a more thought out first post, but honestly I didn't have it in me after reading the past two pages. There is a lot of sense in this post
The point is, no one wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. If you had read this post, like you should have since you claimed you've read the entire thread, then you would know what has caused all the suspicions. Instead, you simply posted "oh MKP played bad and now you guys all think he's match fixing with any other proof?!". When all of the relevant details have been laid out already as to what can cause suspicion that he might have thrown the match on purpose, then it makes you look like a lazy poster/reader. That's why people get annoyed.
But I'll let you get back to it. I've had enough. I got exactly 3 sensible answers between 10 ad hominem. I realize when a cause is lost.
You were far from from being the first guy, who butts in the discussion with a seemingly random one-liner to bash the side which believes MKP has matchfixed, without providing any opinion on the strong arguments which back up that theory, and has been discussed for long pages now. It's pretty tiring, and after a point, straight out annoying that every 2,5 pages or so someone like you appears in the midst of the discussion just to say some one sentence long, arrogant bashing, while seemingly being unaware of what the hell has been discussed. Then this guy has to be shown the same arguments no one could legitimately come close to shake so far in this thread, and then the guy either disappears, makes an even bigger ass out of himself, or goes "aaahhh, yeah, I see now".
I don't even care now, just please, don't try to save face with enlightening us how many ad hominem answers you got, because these personal responses are the result of your ignorant entrance and not vice versa. Just lose the high horse, and I doubt your replies will be as provoking as they were.
On April 22 2015 05:48 meatpop_13 wrote: The betting was so skewed (by people betting large amounts of money against MKP) that, near game time:
a $100 bet on Byul to win could win you $9 profit. a $100 bet on MKP to win could win you $709 in profit.
People were SO confident that MKP was going to lose, they continued to pour tons and tons of money into bets for Byul for peanuts in return. THAT is how skewed the betting was. You could probably find a betting line that skewed if Apollo decided to step into a boxing ring with Floyd Mayweather Jr. Maybe.
I'm curious how often the odds change and how much money it would take to do it. Would it be possible for some baller to just dump a ton of money when the odds are 4:1 and the odds got skewed because of that? I'm also curious who the dumbass fixer is that let all of his 1,000 friends know that MKP was gonna lose.
On April 22 2015 05:48 meatpop_13 wrote: The betting was so skewed (by people betting large amounts of money against MKP) that, near game time:
a $100 bet on Byul to win could win you $9 profit. a $100 bet on MKP to win could win you $709 in profit.
People were SO confident that MKP was going to lose, they continued to pour tons and tons of money into bets for Byul for peanuts in return. THAT is how skewed the betting was. You could probably find a betting line that skewed if Apollo decided to step into a boxing ring with Floyd Mayweather Jr. Maybe.
I'm curious how often the odds change and how much money it would take to do it. Would it be possible for some baller to just dump a ton of money when the odds are 4:1 and the odds got skewed because of that? I'm also curious who the dumbass fixer is that let all of his 1,000 friends know that MKP was gonna lose.
First of all, 4:1 is extremely rare in a bo1. There's lots of discussion about this on other threads. Educated guess (impossible for us to give exact answers with current knowledge) is around tens of thousands of dollars.
About your second point. Information has a habit of spreading. It is not necessarily the fixer that lets his friends know. All it takes is one person to know and the information can spread. If you want a real-life example of this, 2(?) days before Russia occupied Crimea, Russian oligarchs started pulling their assests from west. Did Putin tell all of his friends he is going to do it? I kinda doubt it, but information obviously had spread about the upcoming annexation.
The math behind moving the line has been explained elsewhere and I'm not an expert so I pass.
But the second part has a lot of possibilities. Originally, I assumed match fixers were first starting to show up on Pinnacle looking for bigger pools to rob and either didn't know the limits of Pinnacle's detection or just plain got greedy.
However, Swoopae reported an offer for getting 4 match results a year for $2k, furthermore Lichter speculated that Pinnacle betters are not the match fixers themselves but people who keep their ear to the ground on the illegal Korean gambling sites who then head to Pinnacle to make some money. Both possibilities would mean there's a lot of uncoordinated people involved which would make it more likely they would accidentally trip the fraud detection.
Heck, if I were selling match results, I don't even care if Pinnacle voids the bets, I've already made my money and the people I sold it to get confirmation that my info is good (yes I know how short-sighted this thinking is).
On April 22 2015 08:26 Wuster wrote: The math behind moving the line has been explained elsewhere and I'm not an expert so I pass.
But the second part has a lot of possibilities. Originally, I assumed match fixers were first starting to show up on Pinnacle looking for bigger pools to rob and either didn't know the limits of Pinnacle's detection or just plain got greedy.
However, Swoopae reported an offer for getting 4 match results a year for $2k, furthermore Lichter speculated that Pinnacle betters are not the match fixers themselves but people who keep their ear to the ground on the illegal Korean gambling sites who then head to Pinnacle to make some money. Both possibilities would mean there's a lot of uncoordinated people involved which would make it more likely they would accidentally trip the fraud detection.
Heck, if I were selling match results, I don't even care if Pinnacle voids the bets, I've already made my money and the people I sold it to get confirmation that my info is good (yes I know how short-sighted this thinking is).
I think this probably is the case though. The people paying the players probably got their money already by selling the information.
I am genuinely curious though about your first line. Seeing how the math has been explained elsewhere, could you please give me the direction in which i must go to learn more about it? I can't ask to provide a specific link, but could you provide me a direction?
Ive made several posts explaining dynamic betting lines im on my phone can someone find it and quote it plz its posted in both the mkp byul and sk creator threads and possibly this one
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Reading effort fail.
On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion.
On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details.
No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep".
The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is!
You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times.
edit:
On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass.
How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem?
You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status.
What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument
This is a good summary
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Thank you as well. Just a shame you're in the minority of sensible in this thread. I realize I should probably have made a more thought out first post, but honestly I didn't have it in me after reading the past two pages. There is a lot of sense in this post
The point is, no one wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. If you had read this post, like you should have since you claimed you've read the entire thread, then you would know what has caused all the suspicions. Instead, you simply posted "oh MKP played bad and now you guys all think he's match fixing with any other proof?!". When all of the relevant details have been laid out already as to what can cause suspicion that he might have thrown the match on purpose, then it makes you look like a lazy poster/reader. That's why people get annoyed.
I knew what caused all the suspicion. I never said I read the entire thread, but I did read the first few pages and the last few. You think I just came in here and said something random without having read a single line, yet after arguing with me for the last page, all I have done is elaborate just how exactly correct my first post is: People are trying to pitchfork him (Even if some are trying to be sensible about it, the majority here does not), for not sufficient proof. Lines like "It wouldn't hold up in court but I know he did it!" proves this.
But I'll let you get back to it. I've had enough. I got exactly 3 sensible answers between 10 ad hominem. I realize when a cause is lost.
Your first post this thread:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote: I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
You wrote the wrong name--not sure if this has been specifically addressed, but it appeared to me to be why you were accused of not reading the thread.
Yeah, it's probably about time to put all the evidence together, including proper sources for everything, and put it in the OP or something. Or at least to have ready for number 6... Just so that it'll be easier for people to get an overview and form their own opinion without being flamed for failing to dig up the information. Many are talking about how "awareness" of this is important: well then the thing you can do is make the information easily available in a readable format, right?
I'll make a first draft based on other peoples efforts in this thread, but maybe others can track down the missing sources and format it in a more readable way. I'll just dump it here and see if someone wants to pick it up.
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on.
^^ all of these needs sources, not least the line movements and pinnacle closing the lines.
What's interesting is that KeSPA actually also gave a statement confirming that this is happening to a lot of players/teams and that the appropriate authorities were notified (presumably the police). The implication being that an investigation would be started, but of course this was a long time ago.
On April 21 2015 23:53 LA_Morello wrote: Guys, is there a link to the match or something? I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start?
well shit a lot of the links in it are dead and would be in Korean. I know TL had extensive coverage of the proceedings and how everything went down including how the manager first found out about it in the practice room and how SaviOr lied directly to his face (ofc he didn't want it to be revealed). It wasn't going to change anything considering how many people were involved or knew of it happening.
Here's my two explanations/reasons for why the betting line ended up that skewed
1. MKP parties too hard or plays league too much prior to proleague. Someone within mvp leaks that info that MKP is super hungover or whatever and that byul was an easy bet. It spreads and more and more people bet on byul assuming MKP is going to pull a Johnny Manziel. MKP shows up shitfaced to the proleague, is too hungover to even notice creep spread, and loses the game. Guy looks really ill in the VOD facecam. MVP strips him of captaincy as punishment.
2. MKP threw the game for someone.
I mean MKP has been playing badly enough recently that I wouldn't be surprised if he literally did ignore a proxy hatch completely sincerely. But the betting line... screams 'insider info' to get odds that skewed to begin with. Can Korean police get info of bettors from these sites? Would be interesting to see the time period when the betting line was moving the most.
Yeah... I mean i'm all against random witch hunts. But I think the circumstances in this case are more than enough to be reasonably suspicious. Maybe there's a logical explanation, who knows, but i don't think you can hold a position that this whole thing hasn't been suspicious given what is known.
On April 22 2015 14:12 suicideyear wrote: Here's my two explanations/reasons for why the betting line ended up that skewed
1. MKP parties too hard or plays league too much prior to proleague. Someone within mvp leaks that info that MKP is super hungover or whatever and that byul was an easy bet. It spreads and more and more people bet on byul assuming MKP is going to pull a Johnny Manziel. MKP shows up shitfaced to the proleague, is too hungover to even notice creep spread, and loses the game. Guy looks really ill in the VOD facecam. MVP strips him of captaincy as punishment.
2. MKP threw the game for someone.
I mean MKP has been playing badly enough recently that I wouldn't be surprised if he literally did ignore a proxy hatch completely sincerely. But the betting line... screams 'insider info' to get odds that skewed to begin with. Can Korean police get info of bettors from these sites? Would be interesting to see the time period when the betting line was moving the most.
It clearly can't be defended that MKP didn't see the spine or the creep. As far as the far-fetched argument that he's innocent, the reasoning should be along the lines of extremely poor evaluation and extremely poor decision making based on what he saw. But it seems to me that the argument hinges on him not seeing the spine or creep for everyone else.
On April 22 2015 12:41 Bannt wrote: So people were betting large sums of money on byul winning, even when the potential profit from byuul winning was approaching zero?... ...............
Exactly. So in usual cases it was a very stupid bet to make, but if you know that ByuL is going to win then the odds doesn't matter - it's still sure money.
I just watched the match, and my opinion is that Kespa should ban him from eSports.
He saw there was no natural, he then sees the spine building at his rocks and pretends he didn't see it, he then has creep in his base for 1 minute before reacting to it.. I mean really? he builds a third CC when he knows his opponent has no natural? I mean who is he trying to fool?
Then we get pinnacle esports void all bets on the match as they detected match fixing within the bets being placed on Byul.. I mean this is clearly obvious match fixing.
I think everyone who claims mkp didn't throw on purpose is immensely delusional. I don't know if this has been done before but i am going to explain why this game is unbelievably obviously fixed to people who are not that familiar with (pro level) sc2.
First of all, we need to think logically. MKP is not stupid. He saw a late gas and pool with no natural with his scouting SCV, thus he concluded that the hatchery must be somewhere else, which is why he checked the gold bases. He KNEW there was a hatchery somewhere on the map. Upon not finding anything at the gold bases he concluded (he had to, there were no other options) that the hatch must be somewhere proxied on the map.
What would anyone right in their mind do? Check their main first. He didn't . He opened reaper, so he could scout very easily and efficiently. I can understand some arguments for leaving the first one at home to defend, but as soon as the second reaper popped there was no reason for him to not look around for the hatch with at least one of them, since his main was completely walled in. Fact is, his reapers were sitting at home the entire time because he didn't want to find the hatch., since it is very simple to win the game once you scout something like this which he didn't want, obviously.
Sadly, for him, he scouted the proxy nonetheless, in form of a spine crawler at around 4:30 (video time). Let me get this straight. The spine was visible for over 1 minute and 20 seconds of real time. Pro players look at their minimap every two or three seconds. Marineking was on one base, he didn't even have any units out on the map, so it's impossible that he was too busy to see it. He definitely saw it, maybe not immediately, but no player above gold league doesn't notice something like this in one and a half minutes. Marineking played this game for over five years, i don't have to explain that he saw it by now.
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
To top that off, at around 5:30 (video time) there is creep visible inside his main base right besides the Command Center. It's just there, on his main screen, not to mention there is a huge purple blurp on the minimap. So even IF we pretend, again, he DIDN'T look the the minimap for more than 2 minutes, he definitely saw the creep there. He did not respond whatsoever. After ByuL breaks down the rocks the game is over, MKP 'tries' to defend with good micro but at that point the game was 100% over so he could finally drop his act and start playing.
So if you say 'maybe he had a bad day', please can you explain all these points i mentioned above then? That's like you saying a computer expert didn't find the button to turn his PC on because he had a bad day. No matter how bad of a day he had, the things that happened were unexplicable.
Sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if this has been explained in great detail already, but maybe i could provide some insight to those of you who didn't really get why people found this game so absurdly strange.
On April 22 2015 20:54 SuperFanBoy wrote: I just watched the match, and my opinion is that Kespa should ban him from eSports.
Unless Kespa's taking an extreme amount of time to research the issue (entirely possible, this is Kespa we're talking about), then nothing will happen. The only way anything will happen to clear things up is if the big sponsors are made aware that much of the competition is illegitimate, and threaten to withdraw their sponsorship. If one of the big 4 sponsors threatens to walk then Kespa might actually be pressured into doing something. With no sponsors there is no Korean scene, and I don't think Kespa would want that
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
Do you often find insulting people with differing opinions and straw-manning them to be a good way of convincing them to see things your way?
Anyways, commentary about how obvious the circumstances look is a red herring to the purpose of the thread, which is that MVP made a statement where they said they asked MarineKing directly if he was in on throwing the match and he said he wasn't. He was also demoted from his captaincy. There isn't too much more you can reasonably expect from a team that has to support its own player.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
Do you not play the game, or do you play protoss at a really low level? It's a terrible decision whether a terran would assume a proxy hatch next to the terran's base or a hatch at another base location, the response would be the same; to make units.
If the Terran would assume it was some bizarre mindgame where the Zerg proxy hatch to mine from a base normally, only to take your 3rd somewhere else, it makes no sense to not scout for the hatch and it's not actually possible to defend both your 2nd and 3rd to any normal Terran response and the Zerg player would lose automatically anyways. There's no reason to start a 3rd CC, just as there is no reason to not to bother to scout with the scouting scv or even to scout your own main. Was he microing units? No. Was he busy macroing? No, it's the first 5 mins of the game and he's a pro not a bronze player. He literally had a (real time) minute free to stare at his base and minimap and didn't notice the creep.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
Do you not play the game, or do you play protoss at a really low level? It's a terrible decision whether a terran would assume a proxy hatch next to the terran's base or a hatch at another base location, the response would be the same; to make units.
If the Terran would assume it was some bizarre mindgame where the Zerg proxy hatch to mine from a base normally, only to take your 3rd somewhere else, it makes no sense to not scout for the hatch and it's not actually possible to defend both your 2nd and 3rd to any normal Terran response and the Zerg player would lose automatically anyways. There's no reason to start a 3rd CC, just as there is no reason to not to bother to scout with the scouting scv or even to scout your own main. Was he microing units? No. Was he busy macroing? No, it's the first 5 mins of the game and he's a pro not a bronze player. He literally had a (real time) minute free to stare at his base and minimap and didn't notice the creep.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
It was a terrible move because like i said, there had to be a hatch somewhere on the map. The only reason to proxy a hatchery to mine from it is to take the gold, since the additional income sometimes is worth the risk of having a base that's harder to defend. On a map like this, taking a base far away from your main will cost you the game in the midgame because the terran can just attack from two angles and you cant really defend both bases, at least far less comfortably than if you just had them together. Since he scouted the gold bases it had to be an offensively placed proxy hatch, since hatches to mine from don't benefit you if they're far away unless they are in fact gold bases. Therefore going 3rd CC into reactor was the most terrible thing he could have done since the hatch had to be placed offensively.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: I think everyone who claims mkp didn't throw on purpose is immensely delusional. I don't know if this has been done before but i am going to explain why this game is unbelievably obviously fixed to people who are not that familiar with (pro level) sc2.
First of all, we need to think logically. MKP is not stupid. He saw a late gas and pool with no natural with his scouting SCV, thus he concluded that the hatchery must be somewhere else, which is why he checked the gold bases. He KNEW there was a hatchery somewhere on the map. Upon not finding anything at the gold bases he concluded (he had to, there were no other options) that the hatch must be somewhere proxied on the map.
What would anyone right in their mind do? Check their main first. He didn't . He opened reaper, so he could scout very easily and efficiently. I can understand some arguments for leaving the first one at home to defend, but as soon as the second reaper popped there was no reason for him to not look around for the hatch with at least one of them, since his main was completely walled in. Fact is, his reapers were sitting at home the entire time because he didn't want to find the hatch., since it is very simple to win the game once you scout something like this which he didn't want, obviously.
Sadly, for him, he scouted the proxy nonetheless, in form of a spine crawler at around 4:30 (video time). Let me get this straight. The spine was visible for over 1 minute and 20 seconds of real time. Pro players look at their minimap every two or three seconds. Marineking was on one base, he didn't even have any units out on the map, so it's impossible that he was too busy to see it. He definitely saw it, maybe not immediately, but no player above gold league doesn't notice something like this in one and a half minutes. Marineking played this game for over five years, i don't have to explain that he saw it by now.
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
To top that off, at around 5:30 (video time) there is creep visible inside his main base right besides the Command Center. It's just there, on his main screen, not to mention there is a huge purple blurp on the minimap. So even IF we pretend, again, he DIDN'T look the the minimap for more than 2 minutes, he definitely saw the creep there. He did not respond whatsoever. After ByuL breaks down the rocks the game is over, MKP 'tries' to defend with good micro but at that point the game was 100% over so he could finally drop his act and start playing.
So if you say 'maybe he had a bad day', please can you explain all these points i mentioned above then? That's like you saying a computer expert didn't find the button to turn his PC on because he had a bad day. No matter how bad of a day he had, the things that happened were unexplicable.
Sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if this has been explained in great detail already, but maybe i could provide some insight to those of you who didn't really get why people found this game so absurdly strange.
I'll make a couple points here:
-The scouting is definitely suspicious. The SCV scouts no natural, scouts the late pool (with gas first), scouts the gold bases, then goes back home to mine. I guess MK would argue he thought it was a speedling and/or baneling bust incoming, but it doesn't really explain why he wouldn't keep something outside the base to keep scouting or if he knew it was a proxy hatch, why he wouldn't keep trying to find it with his scouting SCV.
-Keeping reapers at home is also strange. Again, maybe he would say he was expecting a big attack, but he builds no bunkers or extra production buildings, simply teching to reactor hellions. Can he really expect to hold a speedling all-in or baneling bust (from a proxy hatch, no less) with two reapers and maybe two late hellions?
-I could buy MK saying he assumed the spine crawler on the minimap was an overlord. He had an SCV building a CC, which stayed in the lower left closest to the rocks for a long time and it's pretty close in vision. Later on, Byul does actually keep an overlord on that spot. It would be peculiar that it's winking at him the whole time since overlords aren't supposed to be visible in fog of war.
-He starts his third CC just as the creep is coming in. I think it's pretty ambiguous if he could have thought he missed something and there's no attack coming without seeing the creep until it was too late. You'd need the replay of his player cam to see it. The SPL observer shows his camera where you can see some creep, but he had already started his third CC. Still, he reacts VERY slowly to it.
So I think the circumstances are very strange. Even still, I would point out that MVP watched the replay with MK and they still believe him, so it maybe isn't THAT obvious from his player cam what he did or did not see. As with the quote of CJ's coach believing Savior, I would point out that the team is now putting its trust in MK. If it turns out he lied to them and let them put themselves out here like this, then they're a victim too. To call this putting their head in the sand like an ostrich is really being way too bitter and harsh, especially for a young guy. I'd be more charitable and say they're giving him every chance to come clean. If he's been spitting on those chances, then he deserves the consequences. But this is all part of the due process and I think far more preferable to the public humiliation, torture, and summary execution that lots of people here seem to want to see instead.
I guess MK would argue he thought it was a speedling and/or baneling bust incoming
Of course not, why would the pool be late if that was the case? Where are Byuls minerals?
On April 23 2015 01:17 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Speedling or baneling bust incoming. Better build a 3rd CC.
That doesn't even matter; The timing of the pool + the no natural can only mean a hatch somewhere else. Meaning golds or proxy. Or, of course, Byul fell asleep on his keyboard and is floating hundreds of minerals
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
Do you often find insulting people with differing opinions and straw-manning them to be a good way of convincing them to see things your way?
If you want a short and blunt answer: yes, I do.
If you want a longer answer: While I wouldn't call this thread and some of its' posters a prime example, it's still a very good one if you want to showcase how easy it is to manipulate arguments and force everything into a black and white scenario.
Yeah, I've been calling out many people in this thread, you can even say I dropped some insulting remarks towards them, which is not nice, because we should love each other and makes this world a better place yada yada. A black mark for me from the ethics teacher, but let's look at the big picture, in which I hardly find myself the villain here, rather the one who couldn't be bothered to run the extra mile to sugarcoat my responses.
If we want to see the big picture, first we have to boil down the whole thread. This thread, or rather, the discussion which takes place in it, is about whether MKP participated in matchfixing or not. Basically 98% of the responses are about this. Majority of the people believes he did so, and it is pointless to differentiate between those who think it's very obvious, or those who would really really like to believe it's not true, but in their heart they know it probably is. A yes is a yes. Now, there is a minority who believes MKP did not do it. In this minority, a few people don't want to argue it, they just don't think he would do such a thing, and there have been some vocal people from this group who are just as - or even more - confident in their opinion than some from the other side.
So far so good, yeah? Seems like a usual debate, and someone mentioned 12 angry men, which is cool, we definitely need an opposing opinion, and even if it's just a minority, it can still be credible, and in the end, they can be right.
Here comes the problem. We are through 24 pages and this minority did not come up with a single argument which would come close to any of the points the majority based their opinion on. And here comes the beautiful manipulating part (don't think it's intentional though), because even though their arguments are ridiculous, especially compared to some of the FACTS we brought up, they still achieve sympathy, which is enough to make people like you write a comment like the one I just quoted.
This is how can you (=people who are reading this) can make the same shit, and derail any argument if someone doesn't recognize what you are trying to do: - If there are many points which one side uses to back up their opinion, pick the one you can make the best counter-argument against, and pretend the whole debate was about this one point, so if you make it weaker, you make the whole case weaker. Good example is the guy who stated in all of his response how someone cannon rushed without a forge. Now, no offense to this guy, later on we understood each other, and he made some good posts, but it is the easiest example. Now, on it's own, it's a great point, I mean if someone could make such a blunder, why do we expect MKP to be godlike and never bleed? The main problem with this, is that it ignores everything else. Circumstances matter, and this cannon rush example compared to MKP's continous mistakes is very much out of context. The other problem is, that knowing how it's such a weak argument*, you should absolutely not bash those who thinks MKP matchfixed based on this. Or to you use another word instead of bash: insult. Yes, implying that we are stupid if we still think he did that on purpose, just because someone somewhere made a big mistake as well is insulting, if you look a the big picture. *Once again, don't want to hurt that guy, that forge example is still one of the veeeeeeeeeeery few actual try to make a case for MKP being innocent. The others are pretty much just moral-warriors' weak attempts. - Talking about moral, the second way you can absolutely derail an argument, is going for the feels. A bunch of people talking about how they are disappointed in MKP? Better unleash the words "pitchfork"; "typical"; "disappointed"; etc. to try to make them look sheep. People who do (and did) this are not actually arguing, they barely if ever touch those points I was referring to previously, they straight out attack the people. It's pretty much flamebaiting, because you are insulted directly (you are labeled as mindless) and idnirectly (these people seemingly don't give a rat's ass about the previous pages and good arguments, they are just fighting this case for the sake of fighting it). After the Xth guy pops in here just to do this, you are pretty fucking tired of it. - Forcing to end the discussion. You know, the people who jump into the middle of this thread just to say "guys, MVP gave it's statement, let it go, it's over". It's not over, and why even bother telling people to stop discussing it? I for one am interested in why could he do it, how could teams/kespa/MKP handle it, what could this mean in the future of korean sc2, etc. Even if there was no matchfixing, it's still an interesting topic. Of course, you might seem like a jerk if you tell these people to go away, because oh, they just wanted this pointless fight to stop! Yeah, that's why some of them went as far as trying to force an end to the discussion, while implying that MKP is innocent for sure. - And finally, you just gotta love the "100% guys". They go to extreme lengths just to question every single word you make. It's very dumb, but these are the only people you technically can't win an argument against. Even if MKP announced he lost intentionally, these guys would just say "yeah, but what if kespa forced him to say this, so they can make a scapegoat out of him?". What do you even say to this? There is a possibility, sure. Maybe the people who thinks MKP lost intentionally are paid by the Russians. Can we prove we are not? Maybe MKP hired a guy who looks just like him, and the guy did not lose intentionally, he was just bad at Starcraft. Can I prove it was ot the case? Not without medical tests, no. The list could go on, and these guys are persistent, because they know if they add "but is it a 100% proof?" to whatever they say, they can just get away with it. It's very similiar to my previous point, their intention is the same: to force an end to the discussion.
All of these could be summed up by one word: ignorance. Have you ever argued with ignorant people? Do you know much fun it is? If you don't, search for a pencil, put it down in front of you, and ask him what's 1+1. It will never say 2. Now, how long do you have the patience to repeatedly keep asking your pencil, while it just lies there with its' imaginary chin up in the air? Thought so.
The question here is not as simple as 1+1, sure, but no one could make a single post which could be stickied somewhere, to showcase it for those who are interested in what the side who believes MKP is innocent have to offer. Nothing. We have countless posts which explains why it is very, very, very, very likely MKP participated in a matchfixing, they've been quoted for quite a lot, but the other side's so called arguments can be summed up by this: "99,9% is not 100%, MKP is innocent, if you think otherwise you are a sheep, bye." And you think I'm strawmanning? Really? Do you want me to quote some of these posts withot changing a single comma in them? I'm not making these up, people literally said these stupid things I just mentioned. Hell, the last guy I called out, marched in here, pretty much called us idiots, then admitted he actually had no idea what was going in, but ran away from here with his closing thoughts being (paraphrasing here): "I was ignorant, but you guys were mean, so I'm right. Don't respond to me, I'm not coming back, because I'm right." So much maturity!
The funniest thing is that somehow we are presented to be MKP haters, who want him to go to jail or something, while in reality, the other side is the more radical one. But we all know that defending someone always looks better, than attacking him/her.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
Do you not play the game, or do you play protoss at a really low level? It's a terrible decision whether a terran would assume a proxy hatch next to the terran's base or a hatch at another base location, the response would be the same; to make units.
If the Terran would assume it was some bizarre mindgame where the Zerg proxy hatch to mine from a base normally, only to take your 3rd somewhere else, it makes no sense to not scout for the hatch and it's not actually possible to defend both your 2nd and 3rd to any normal Terran response and the Zerg player would lose automatically anyways. There's no reason to start a 3rd CC, just as there is no reason to not to bother to scout with the scouting scv or even to scout your own main. Was he microing units? No. Was he busy macroing? No, it's the first 5 mins of the game and he's a pro not a bronze player. He literally had a (real time) minute free to stare at his base and minimap and didn't notice the creep.
No, I don't play SC. I was asking it, to be the devil's advocate, because the other camp is so damn lackluster, that I actually have to try to attack our own statements with - from a noobs perspective - reasonable questions. In a way, it wasn't a serious question, because I knew (many people have explained MKP's amateurish mistakes in this thread) it was most likely a ridiculous mistake, I was just curious if there was a purely theoretical answer, which could make this one particular mistake a little less terrible.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
It was a terrible move because like i said, there had to be a hatch somewhere on the map. The only reason to proxy a hatchery to mine from it is to take the gold, since the additional income sometimes is worth the risk of having a base that's harder to defend. On a map like this, taking a base far away from your main will cost you the game in the midgame because the terran can just attack from two angles and you cant really defend both bases, at least far less comfortably than if you just had them together. Since he scouted the gold bases it had to be an offensively placed proxy hatch, since hatches to mine from don't benefit you if they're far away unless they are in fact gold bases. Therefore going 3rd CC into reactor was the most terrible thing he could have done since the hatch had to be placed offensively.
Yeah, and meanwhile I realized that the main point in this is that he had to scout. I mean, let's say if the Z did not go for an offensive, but for a hidden expand hatchery, and if the T builds a 3rd CC he comes out ahead, there was still 0 reason why he shouldn't send at least one of his reaper to check his natural.
50/50 only makes sense in a scenario where you either lose big, if the other possibility is that you win big. I doubt the third CC would've been a guaranteed win for MKP if Byul only went for a hidden, non-golden base, but it was a guaranteed loss if it was where it was in the game.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: I think everyone who claims mkp didn't throw on purpose is immensely delusional. I don't know if this has been done before but i am going to explain why this game is unbelievably obviously fixed to people who are not that familiar with (pro level) sc2.
First of all, we need to think logically. MKP is not stupid. He saw a late gas and pool with no natural with his scouting SCV, thus he concluded that the hatchery must be somewhere else, which is why he checked the gold bases. He KNEW there was a hatchery somewhere on the map. Upon not finding anything at the gold bases he concluded (he had to, there were no other options) that the hatch must be somewhere proxied on the map.
What would anyone right in their mind do? Check their main first. He didn't . He opened reaper, so he could scout very easily and efficiently. I can understand some arguments for leaving the first one at home to defend, but as soon as the second reaper popped there was no reason for him to not look around for the hatch with at least one of them, since his main was completely walled in. Fact is, his reapers were sitting at home the entire time because he didn't want to find the hatch., since it is very simple to win the game once you scout something like this which he didn't want, obviously.
Sadly, for him, he scouted the proxy nonetheless, in form of a spine crawler at around 4:30 (video time). Let me get this straight. The spine was visible for over 1 minute and 20 seconds of real time. Pro players look at their minimap every two or three seconds. Marineking was on one base, he didn't even have any units out on the map, so it's impossible that he was too busy to see it. He definitely saw it, maybe not immediately, but no player above gold league doesn't notice something like this in one and a half minutes. Marineking played this game for over five years, i don't have to explain that he saw it by now.
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
To top that off, at around 5:30 (video time) there is creep visible inside his main base right besides the Command Center. It's just there, on his main screen, not to mention there is a huge purple blurp on the minimap. So even IF we pretend, again, he DIDN'T look the the minimap for more than 2 minutes, he definitely saw the creep there. He did not respond whatsoever. After ByuL breaks down the rocks the game is over, MKP 'tries' to defend with good micro but at that point the game was 100% over so he could finally drop his act and start playing.
So if you say 'maybe he had a bad day', please can you explain all these points i mentioned above then? That's like you saying a computer expert didn't find the button to turn his PC on because he had a bad day. No matter how bad of a day he had, the things that happened were unexplicable.
Sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if this has been explained in great detail already, but maybe i could provide some insight to those of you who didn't really get why people found this game so absurdly strange.
I'll make a couple points here:
-The scouting is definitely suspicious. The SCV scouts no natural, scouts the late pool (with gas first), scouts the gold bases, then goes back home to mine. I guess MK would argue he thought it was a speedling and/or baneling bust incoming, but it doesn't really explain why he wouldn't keep something outside the base to keep scouting or if he knew it was a proxy hatch, why he wouldn't keep trying to find it with his scouting SCV.
-Keeping reapers at home is also strange. Again, maybe he would say he was expecting a big attack, but he builds no bunkers or extra production buildings, simply teching to reactor hellions. Can he really expect to hold a speedling all-in or baneling bust (from a proxy hatch, no less) with two reapers and maybe two late hellions?
-I could buy MK saying he assumed the spine crawler on the minimap was an overlord. He had an SCV building a CC, which stayed in the lower left closest to the rocks for a long time and it's pretty close in vision. Later on, Byul does actually keep an overlord on that spot. It would be peculiar that it's winking at him the whole time since overlords aren't supposed to be visible in fog of war.
-He starts his third CC just as the creep is coming in. I think it's pretty ambiguous if he could have thought he missed something and there's no attack coming without seeing the creep until it was too late. You'd need the replay of his player cam to see it. The SPL observer shows his camera where you can see some creep, but he had already started his third CC. Still, he reacts VERY slowly to it.
So I think the circumstances are very strange. Even still, I would point out that MVP watched the replay with MK and they still believe him, so it maybe isn't THAT obvious from his player cam what he did or did not see. As with the quote of CJ's coach believing Savior, I would point out that the team is now putting its trust in MK. If it turns out he lied to them and let them put themselves out here like this, then they're a victim too. To call this putting their head in the sand like an ostrich is really being way too bitter and harsh, especially for a young guy. I'd be more charitable and say they're giving him every chance to come clean. If he's been spitting on those chances, then he deserves the consequences. But this is all part of the due process and I think far more preferable to the public humiliation, torture, and summary execution that lots of people here seem to want to see instead.
See, this is a good post, which differs to my opinion, but I have absolutely no urge to call this guy out, because he obviously read other's posts here, he is not being ignorant, and he stays on topic, not trying to make childish arguments, or making it into some emotional war. Now, compare his post to the people's I have called out so far. You know, like the guys who barfs in one sentence which screams from "I don't even care what you guys wrote so far, imma just butt in here for the lulz".
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: I think everyone who claims mkp didn't throw on purpose is immensely delusional. I don't know if this has been done before but i am going to explain why this game is unbelievably obviously fixed to people who are not that familiar with (pro level) sc2.
First of all, we need to think logically. MKP is not stupid. He saw a late gas and pool with no natural with his scouting SCV, thus he concluded that the hatchery must be somewhere else, which is why he checked the gold bases. He KNEW there was a hatchery somewhere on the map. Upon not finding anything at the gold bases he concluded (he had to, there were no other options) that the hatch must be somewhere proxied on the map.
What would anyone right in their mind do? Check their main first. He didn't . He opened reaper, so he could scout very easily and efficiently. I can understand some arguments for leaving the first one at home to defend, but as soon as the second reaper popped there was no reason for him to not look around for the hatch with at least one of them, since his main was completely walled in. Fact is, his reapers were sitting at home the entire time because he didn't want to find the hatch., since it is very simple to win the game once you scout something like this which he didn't want, obviously.
Sadly, for him, he scouted the proxy nonetheless, in form of a spine crawler at around 4:30 (video time). Let me get this straight. The spine was visible for over 1 minute and 20 seconds of real time. Pro players look at their minimap every two or three seconds. Marineking was on one base, he didn't even have any units out on the map, so it's impossible that he was too busy to see it. He definitely saw it, maybe not immediately, but no player above gold league doesn't notice something like this in one and a half minutes. Marineking played this game for over five years, i don't have to explain that he saw it by now.
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
To top that off, at around 5:30 (video time) there is creep visible inside his main base right besides the Command Center. It's just there, on his main screen, not to mention there is a huge purple blurp on the minimap. So even IF we pretend, again, he DIDN'T look the the minimap for more than 2 minutes, he definitely saw the creep there. He did not respond whatsoever. After ByuL breaks down the rocks the game is over, MKP 'tries' to defend with good micro but at that point the game was 100% over so he could finally drop his act and start playing.
So if you say 'maybe he had a bad day', please can you explain all these points i mentioned above then? That's like you saying a computer expert didn't find the button to turn his PC on because he had a bad day. No matter how bad of a day he had, the things that happened were unexplicable.
Sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if this has been explained in great detail already, but maybe i could provide some insight to those of you who didn't really get why people found this game so absurdly strange.
I'll make a couple points here:
-The scouting is definitely suspicious. The SCV scouts no natural, scouts the late pool (with gas first), scouts the gold bases, then goes back home to mine. I guess MK would argue he thought it was a speedling and/or baneling bust incoming, but it doesn't really explain why he wouldn't keep something outside the base to keep scouting or if he knew it was a proxy hatch, why he wouldn't keep trying to find it with his scouting SCV.
-Keeping reapers at home is also strange. Again, maybe he would say he was expecting a big attack, but he builds no bunkers or extra production buildings, simply teching to reactor hellions. Can he really expect to hold a speedling all-in or baneling bust (from a proxy hatch, no less) with two reapers and maybe two late hellions?
-I could buy MK saying he assumed the spine crawler on the minimap was an overlord. He had an SCV building a CC, which stayed in the lower left closest to the rocks for a long time and it's pretty close in vision. Later on, Byul does actually keep an overlord on that spot. It would be peculiar that it's winking at him the whole time since overlords aren't supposed to be visible in fog of war.
-He starts his third CC just as the creep is coming in. I think it's pretty ambiguous if he could have thought he missed something and there's no attack coming without seeing the creep until it was too late. You'd need the replay of his player cam to see it. The SPL observer shows his camera where you can see some creep, but he had already started his third CC. Still, he reacts VERY slowly to it.
So I think the circumstances are very strange. Even still, I would point out that MVP watched the replay with MK and they still believe him, so it maybe isn't THAT obvious from his player cam what he did or did not see. As with the quote of CJ's coach believing Savior, I would point out that the team is now putting its trust in MK. If it turns out he lied to them and let them put themselves out here like this, then they're a victim too. To call this putting their head in the sand like an ostrich is really being way too bitter and harsh, especially for a young guy. I'd be more charitable and say they're giving him every chance to come clean. If he's been spitting on those chances, then he deserves the consequences. But this is all part of the due process and I think far more preferable to the public humiliation, torture, and summary execution that lots of people here seem to want to see instead.
MVP guards MK, they have to know he matchfixed but they just don't make it public. Or they're extremely stupid. Or they don't want to know. You see, they ask him 'well dude did you matchfix?' -'nah i didn't' -'really? ' -'no' MK INNOCENT THANKS CASE CLOSED there are ways of finding out if he fixed if they wanted to. they could check his skype/fb messages, check his bank account for suspicious amounts of money coming out of nowhere etc. The fact is that they don't, which implies one of the options i mentioned above.
Oh and he didn't have permanent vision of the spine, which as you said 'could have been an overlord', thus the yellow dot would disappear, since you can't permanently see overlords on the map without vision, while the dot from the spine would still be there even if he lost vision, since it's a building. So even that theory doesn't work.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
Do you often find insulting people with differing opinions and straw-manning them to be a good way of convincing them to see things your way?
If you want a longer answer: While I wouldn't call this thread and some of its' posters a prime example, it's still a very good one if you want to showcase how easy it is to manipulate arguments and force everything into a black and white scenario.
Yeah, I've been calling out many people in this thread, you can even say I dropped some insulting remarks towards them, which is not nice, because we should love each other and makes this world a better place yada yada. A black mark for me from the ethics teacher, but let's look at the big picture, in which I hardly find myself the villain here, rather the one who couldn't be bothered to run the extra mile to sugarcoat my responses.
If we want to see the big picture, first we have to boil down the whole thread. This thread, or rather, the discussion which takes place in it, is about whether MKP participated in matchfixing or not. Basically 98% of the responses are about this. Majority of the people believes he did so, and it is pointless to differentiate between those who think it's very obvious, or those who would really really like to believe it's not true, but in their heart they know it probably is. A yes is a yes. Now, there is a minority who believes MKP did not do it. In this minority, a few people don't want to argue it, they just don't think he would do such a thing, and there have been some vocal people from this group who are just as - or even more - confident in their opinion than some from the other side.
So far so good, yeah? Seems like a usual debate, and someone mentioned 12 angry men, which is cool, we definitely need an opposing opinion, and even if it's just a minority, it can still be credible, and in the end, they can be right.
Here comes the problem. We are through 24 pages and this minority did not come up with a single argument which would come close to any of the points the majority based their opinion on. And here comes the beautiful manipulating part (don't think it's intentional though), because even though their arguments are ridiculous, especially compared to some of the FACTS we brought up, they still achieve sympathy, which is enough to make people like you write a comment like the one I just quoted.
This is how can you (=people who are reading this) can make the same shit, and derail any argument if someone doesn't recognize what you are trying to do: - If there are many points which one side uses to back up their opinion, pick the one you can make the best counter-argument against, and pretend the whole debate was about this one point, so if you make it weaker, you make the whole case weaker. Good example is the guy who stated in all of his response how someone cannon rushed without a forge. Now, no offense to this guy, later on we understood each other, and he made some good posts, but it is the easiest example. Now, on it's own, it's a great point, I mean if someone could make such a blunder, why do we expect MKP to be godlike and never bleed? The main problem with this, is that it ignores everything else. Circumstances matter, and this cannon rush example compared to MKP's continous mistakes is very much out of context. The other problem is, that knowing how it's such a weak argument*, you should absolutely not bash those who thinks MKP matchfixed based on this. Or to you use another word instead of bash: insult. Yes, implying that we are stupid if we still think he did that on purpose, just because someone somewhere made a big mistake as well is insulting, if you look a the big picture. *Once again, don't want to hurt that guy, that forge example is still one of the veeeeeeeeeeery few actual try to make a case for MKP being innocent. The others are pretty much just moral-warriors' weak attempts. - Talking about moral, the second way you can absolutely derail an argument, is going for the feels. A bunch of people talking about how they are disappointed in MKP? Better unleash the words "pitchfork"; "typical"; "disappointed"; etc. to try to make them look sheep. People who do (and did) this are not actually arguing, they barely if ever touch those points I was referring to previously, they straight out attack the people. It's pretty much flamebaiting, because you are insulted directly (you are labeled as mindless) and idnirectly (these people seemingly don't give a rat's ass about the previous pages and good arguments, they are just fighting this case for the sake of fighting it). After the Xth guy pops in here just to do this, you are pretty fucking tired of it. - Forcing to end the discussion. You know, the people who jump into the middle of this thread just to say "guys, MVP gave it's statement, let it go, it's over". It's not over, and why even bother telling people to stop discussing it? I for one am interested in why could he do it, how could teams/kespa/MKP handle it, what could this mean in the future of korean sc2, etc. Even if there was no matchfixing, it's still an interesting topic. Of course, you might seem like a jerk if you tell these people to go away, because oh, they just wanted this pointless fight to stop! Yeah, that's why some of them went as far as trying to force an end to the discussion, while implying that MKP is innocent for sure. - And finally, you just gotta love the "100% guys". They go to extreme lengths just to question every single word you make. It's very dumb, but these are the only people you technically can't win an argument against. Even if MKP announced he lost intentionally, these guys would just say "yeah, but what if kespa forced him to say this, so they can make a scapegoat out of him?". What do you even say to this? There is a possibility, sure. Maybe the people who thinks MKP lost intentionally are paid by the Russians. Can we prove we are not? Maybe MKP hired a guy who looks just like him, and the guy did not lose intentionally, he was just bad at Starcraft. Can I prove it was ot the case? Not without medical tests, no. The list could go on, and these guys are persistent, because they know if they add "but is it a 100% proof?" to whatever they say, they can just get away with it. It's very similiar to my previous point, their intention is the same: to force an end to the discussion.
All of these could be summed up by one word: ignorance. Have you ever argued with ignorant people? Do you know much fun it is? If you don't, search for a pencil, put it down in front of you, and ask him what's 1+1. It will never say 2. Now, how long do you have the patience to repeatedly keep asking your pencil, while it just lies there with its' imaginary chin up in the air? Thought so.
The question here is not as simple as 1+1, sure, but no one could make a single post which could be stickied somewhere, to showcase it for those who are interested in what the side who believes MKP is innocent have to offer. Nothing. We have countless posts which explains why it is very, very, very, very likely MKP participated in a matchfixing, they've been quoted for quite a lot, but the other side's so called arguments can be summed up by this: "99,9% is not 100%, MKP is innocent, if you think otherwise you are a sheep, bye." And you think I'm strawmanning? Really? Do you want me to quote some of these posts withot changing a single comma in them? I'm not making these up, people literally said these stupid things I just mentioned. Hell, the last guy I called out, marched in here, pretty much called us idiots, then admitted he actually had no idea what was going in, but ran away from here with his closing thoughts being (paraphrasing here): "I was ignorant, but you guys were mean, so I'm right. Don't respond to me, I'm not coming back, because I'm right." So much maturity!
The funniest thing is that somehow we are presented to be MKP haters, who want him to go to jail or something, while in reality, the other side is the more radical one. But we all know that defending someone always looks better, than attacking him/her.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
Do you not play the game, or do you play protoss at a really low level? It's a terrible decision whether a terran would assume a proxy hatch next to the terran's base or a hatch at another base location, the response would be the same; to make units.
If the Terran would assume it was some bizarre mindgame where the Zerg proxy hatch to mine from a base normally, only to take your 3rd somewhere else, it makes no sense to not scout for the hatch and it's not actually possible to defend both your 2nd and 3rd to any normal Terran response and the Zerg player would lose automatically anyways. There's no reason to start a 3rd CC, just as there is no reason to not to bother to scout with the scouting scv or even to scout your own main. Was he microing units? No. Was he busy macroing? No, it's the first 5 mins of the game and he's a pro not a bronze player. He literally had a (real time) minute free to stare at his base and minimap and didn't notice the creep.
No, I don't play SC. I was asking it, to be the devil's advocate, because the other camp is so damn lackluster, that I actually have to try to attack our own statements with - from a noobs perspective - reasonable questions. In a way, it wasn't a serious question, because I knew (many people have explained MKP's amateurish mistakes in this thread) it was most likely a ridiculous mistake, I was just curious if there was a purely theoretical answer, which could make this one particular mistake a little less terrible.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
It was a terrible move because like i said, there had to be a hatch somewhere on the map. The only reason to proxy a hatchery to mine from it is to take the gold, since the additional income sometimes is worth the risk of having a base that's harder to defend. On a map like this, taking a base far away from your main will cost you the game in the midgame because the terran can just attack from two angles and you cant really defend both bases, at least far less comfortably than if you just had them together. Since he scouted the gold bases it had to be an offensively placed proxy hatch, since hatches to mine from don't benefit you if they're far away unless they are in fact gold bases. Therefore going 3rd CC into reactor was the most terrible thing he could have done since the hatch had to be placed offensively.
Yeah, and meanwhile I realized that the main point in this is that he had to scout. I mean, let's say if the Z did not go for an offensive, but for a hidden expand hatchery, and if the T builds a 3rd CC he comes out ahead, there was still 0 reason why he shouldn't send at least one of his reaper to check his natural.
50/50 only makes sense in a scenario where you either lose big, if the other possibility is that you win big. I doubt the third CC would've been a guaranteed win for MKP if Byul only went for a hidden, non-golden base, but it was a guaranteed loss if it was where it was in the game.
The thing is noone hides hatches in the early game to mine from as zerg. unless it's a gold base. noone ever goes 'yep i'll place this hatch at the other side of the map, let's play a nice macro game'. You sometimes see that from protoss and even more rarely out of terran, but zergs have not done this in a million years unless i'm heavily mistaken, unless weird happenings in the game forced them to take such a risk.
Another thing we should emphasize as evidence of the high probability that MKP matchfixed is the correlation of deliberately manipulated betting lines and an extremely suspicious game. Those two things occurred together. What are the odds?
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: I think everyone who claims mkp didn't throw on purpose is immensely delusional. I don't know if this has been done before but i am going to explain why this game is unbelievably obviously fixed to people who are not that familiar with (pro level) sc2.
First of all, we need to think logically. MKP is not stupid. He saw a late gas and pool with no natural with his scouting SCV, thus he concluded that the hatchery must be somewhere else, which is why he checked the gold bases. He KNEW there was a hatchery somewhere on the map. Upon not finding anything at the gold bases he concluded (he had to, there were no other options) that the hatch must be somewhere proxied on the map.
What would anyone right in their mind do? Check their main first. He didn't . He opened reaper, so he could scout very easily and efficiently. I can understand some arguments for leaving the first one at home to defend, but as soon as the second reaper popped there was no reason for him to not look around for the hatch with at least one of them, since his main was completely walled in. Fact is, his reapers were sitting at home the entire time because he didn't want to find the hatch., since it is very simple to win the game once you scout something like this which he didn't want, obviously.
Sadly, for him, he scouted the proxy nonetheless, in form of a spine crawler at around 4:30 (video time). Let me get this straight. The spine was visible for over 1 minute and 20 seconds of real time. Pro players look at their minimap every two or three seconds. Marineking was on one base, he didn't even have any units out on the map, so it's impossible that he was too busy to see it. He definitely saw it, maybe not immediately, but no player above gold league doesn't notice something like this in one and a half minutes. Marineking played this game for over five years, i don't have to explain that he saw it by now.
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
To top that off, at around 5:30 (video time) there is creep visible inside his main base right besides the Command Center. It's just there, on his main screen, not to mention there is a huge purple blurp on the minimap. So even IF we pretend, again, he DIDN'T look the the minimap for more than 2 minutes, he definitely saw the creep there. He did not respond whatsoever. After ByuL breaks down the rocks the game is over, MKP 'tries' to defend with good micro but at that point the game was 100% over so he could finally drop his act and start playing.
So if you say 'maybe he had a bad day', please can you explain all these points i mentioned above then? That's like you saying a computer expert didn't find the button to turn his PC on because he had a bad day. No matter how bad of a day he had, the things that happened were unexplicable.
Sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if this has been explained in great detail already, but maybe i could provide some insight to those of you who didn't really get why people found this game so absurdly strange.
I'll make a couple points here:
-The scouting is definitely suspicious. The SCV scouts no natural, scouts the late pool (with gas first), scouts the gold bases, then goes back home to mine. I guess MK would argue he thought it was a speedling and/or baneling bust incoming, but it doesn't really explain why he wouldn't keep something outside the base to keep scouting or if he knew it was a proxy hatch, why he wouldn't keep trying to find it with his scouting SCV.
-Keeping reapers at home is also strange. Again, maybe he would say he was expecting a big attack, but he builds no bunkers or extra production buildings, simply teching to reactor hellions. Can he really expect to hold a speedling all-in or baneling bust (from a proxy hatch, no less) with two reapers and maybe two late hellions?
-I could buy MK saying he assumed the spine crawler on the minimap was an overlord. He had an SCV building a CC, which stayed in the lower left closest to the rocks for a long time and it's pretty close in vision. Later on, Byul does actually keep an overlord on that spot. It would be peculiar that it's winking at him the whole time since overlords aren't supposed to be visible in fog of war.
-He starts his third CC just as the creep is coming in. I think it's pretty ambiguous if he could have thought he missed something and there's no attack coming without seeing the creep until it was too late. You'd need the replay of his player cam to see it. The SPL observer shows his camera where you can see some creep, but he had already started his third CC. Still, he reacts VERY slowly to it.
So I think the circumstances are very strange. Even still, I would point out that MVP watched the replay with MK and they still believe him, so it maybe isn't THAT obvious from his player cam what he did or did not see. As with the quote of CJ's coach believing Savior, I would point out that the team is now putting its trust in MK. If it turns out he lied to them and let them put themselves out here like this, then they're a victim too. To call this putting their head in the sand like an ostrich is really being way too bitter and harsh, especially for a young guy. I'd be more charitable and say they're giving him every chance to come clean. If he's been spitting on those chances, then he deserves the consequences. But this is all part of the due process and I think far more preferable to the public humiliation, torture, and summary execution that lots of people here seem to want to see instead.
MVP guards MK, they have to know he matchfixed but they just don't make it public. Or they're extremely stupid. Or they don't want to know. You see, they ask him 'well dude did you matchfix?' -'nah i didn't' -'really? ' -'no' MK INNOCENT THANKS CASE CLOSED there are ways of finding out if he fixed if they wanted to. they could check his skype/fb messages, check his bank account for suspicious amounts of money coming out of nowhere etc. The fact is that they don't, which implies one of the options i mentioned above.
Oh and he didn't have permanent vision of the spine, which as you said 'could have been an overlord', thus the yellow dot would disappear, since you can't permanently see overlords on the map without vision, while the dot from the spine would still be there even if he lost vision, since it's a building. So even that theory doesn't work.
Nah, this is what I mean by torturing him. They can't do those things. Going through his personal communications or his bank accounts is a tremendous violation of his constitutionally protected rights against searches without cause, not to mention the ugly personal signals it sends to the captain of their own team. I'm pretty alarmed at how casual and easy you think it is to ask someone for records of their private conversations and financial records or worse, to obtain it without their consent.
Put it this way: you could also figure this out pretty quickly if you tied him down to a board with a towel over his face and poured water on it to induce sensations of drowning until he just admitted it. Want the team to do that?
The problem with the statement is that they don't give much info about why they are so sure he didn't do it. If they had said 'we watched the replay and at no point could mkp see the spine/creep on his vision and he walked us through his thought process', or given any specifics at all really it would have been more convincing.
Also if i were looking to fix a match, mkp would be a good person to have do it. I mean he does seem like an unlikely person to fix, and he's already been losing quite a lot. If that's the case than maybe they hoped they could get away with a more skewed betting line. The casters themselves at the beginning of the game said no one expected mkp to win.
On April 22 2015 12:04 Cascade wrote: Yeah, it's probably about time to put all the evidence together, including proper sources for everything, and put it in the OP or something. Or at least to have ready for number 6... Just so that it'll be easier for people to get an overview and form their own opinion without being flamed for failing to dig up the information. Many are talking about how "awareness" of this is important: well then the thing you can do is make the information easily available in a readable format, right?
I'll make a first draft based on other peoples efforts in this thread, but maybe others can track down the missing sources and format it in a more readable way. I'll just dump it here and see if someone wants to pick it up.
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on.
^^ all of these needs sources, not least the line movements and pinnacle closing the lines.
What's interesting is that KeSPA actually also gave a statement confirming that this is happening to a lot of players/teams and that the appropriate authorities were notified (presumably the police). The implication being that an investigation would be started, but of course this was a long time ago.
On April 21 2015 23:53 LA_Morello wrote: Guys, is there a link to the match or something? I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start?
well shit a lot of the links in it are dead and would be in Korean. I know TL had extensive coverage of the proceedings and how everything went down including how the manager first found out about it in the practice room and how SaviOr lied directly to his face (ofc he didn't want it to be revealed). It wasn't going to change anything considering how many people were involved or knew of it happening.
There are vods of Huk / Kane / Desrow / Destiny going over the game in question on Remax and Lycanthrope or something. Unfortunately, I can't find the vods right now, but at least here's Huk talking about how crappy things are in Korea to allow this to keep going on: http://www.twitch.tv/desrowfighting/v/4031346?t=2h36m49s
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
Do you not play the game, or do you play protoss at a really low level? It's a terrible decision whether a terran would assume a proxy hatch next to the terran's base or a hatch at another base location, the response would be the same; to make units.
If the Terran would assume it was some bizarre mindgame where the Zerg proxy hatch to mine from a base normally, only to take your 3rd somewhere else, it makes no sense to not scout for the hatch and it's not actually possible to defend both your 2nd and 3rd to any normal Terran response and the Zerg player would lose automatically anyways. There's no reason to start a 3rd CC, just as there is no reason to not to bother to scout with the scouting scv or even to scout your own main. Was he microing units? No. Was he busy macroing? No, it's the first 5 mins of the game and he's a pro not a bronze player. He literally had a (real time) minute free to stare at his base and minimap and didn't notice the creep.
No, I don't play SC. I was asking it, to be the devil's advocate, because the other camp is so damn lackluster, that I actually have to try to attack our own statements with - from a noobs perspective - reasonable questions. In a way, it wasn't a serious question, because I knew (many people have explained MKP's amateurish mistakes in this thread) it was most likely a ridiculous mistake, I was just curious if there was a purely theoretical answer, which could make this one particular mistake a little less terrible.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch?
Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money.
It was a terrible move because like i said, there had to be a hatch somewhere on the map. The only reason to proxy a hatchery to mine from it is to take the gold, since the additional income sometimes is worth the risk of having a base that's harder to defend. On a map like this, taking a base far away from your main will cost you the game in the midgame because the terran can just attack from two angles and you cant really defend both bases, at least far less comfortably than if you just had them together. Since he scouted the gold bases it had to be an offensively placed proxy hatch, since hatches to mine from don't benefit you if they're far away unless they are in fact gold bases. Therefore going 3rd CC into reactor was the most terrible thing he could have done since the hatch had to be placed offensively.
Yeah, and meanwhile I realized that the main point in this is that he had to scout. I mean, let's say if the Z did not go for an offensive, but for a hidden expand hatchery, and if the T builds a 3rd CC he comes out ahead, there was still 0 reason why he shouldn't send at least one of his reaper to check his natural.
50/50 only makes sense in a scenario where you either lose big, if the other possibility is that you win big. I doubt the third CC would've been a guaranteed win for MKP if Byul only went for a hidden, non-golden base, but it was a guaranteed loss if it was where it was in the game.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: I think everyone who claims mkp didn't throw on purpose is immensely delusional. I don't know if this has been done before but i am going to explain why this game is unbelievably obviously fixed to people who are not that familiar with (pro level) sc2.
First of all, we need to think logically. MKP is not stupid. He saw a late gas and pool with no natural with his scouting SCV, thus he concluded that the hatchery must be somewhere else, which is why he checked the gold bases. He KNEW there was a hatchery somewhere on the map. Upon not finding anything at the gold bases he concluded (he had to, there were no other options) that the hatch must be somewhere proxied on the map.
What would anyone right in their mind do? Check their main first. He didn't . He opened reaper, so he could scout very easily and efficiently. I can understand some arguments for leaving the first one at home to defend, but as soon as the second reaper popped there was no reason for him to not look around for the hatch with at least one of them, since his main was completely walled in. Fact is, his reapers were sitting at home the entire time because he didn't want to find the hatch., since it is very simple to win the game once you scout something like this which he didn't want, obviously.
Sadly, for him, he scouted the proxy nonetheless, in form of a spine crawler at around 4:30 (video time). Let me get this straight. The spine was visible for over 1 minute and 20 seconds of real time. Pro players look at their minimap every two or three seconds. Marineking was on one base, he didn't even have any units out on the map, so it's impossible that he was too busy to see it. He definitely saw it, maybe not immediately, but no player above gold league doesn't notice something like this in one and a half minutes. Marineking played this game for over five years, i don't have to explain that he saw it by now.
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
To top that off, at around 5:30 (video time) there is creep visible inside his main base right besides the Command Center. It's just there, on his main screen, not to mention there is a huge purple blurp on the minimap. So even IF we pretend, again, he DIDN'T look the the minimap for more than 2 minutes, he definitely saw the creep there. He did not respond whatsoever. After ByuL breaks down the rocks the game is over, MKP 'tries' to defend with good micro but at that point the game was 100% over so he could finally drop his act and start playing.
So if you say 'maybe he had a bad day', please can you explain all these points i mentioned above then? That's like you saying a computer expert didn't find the button to turn his PC on because he had a bad day. No matter how bad of a day he had, the things that happened were unexplicable.
Sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if this has been explained in great detail already, but maybe i could provide some insight to those of you who didn't really get why people found this game so absurdly strange.
I'll make a couple points here:
-The scouting is definitely suspicious. The SCV scouts no natural, scouts the late pool (with gas first), scouts the gold bases, then goes back home to mine. I guess MK would argue he thought it was a speedling and/or baneling bust incoming, but it doesn't really explain why he wouldn't keep something outside the base to keep scouting or if he knew it was a proxy hatch, why he wouldn't keep trying to find it with his scouting SCV.
-Keeping reapers at home is also strange. Again, maybe he would say he was expecting a big attack, but he builds no bunkers or extra production buildings, simply teching to reactor hellions. Can he really expect to hold a speedling all-in or baneling bust (from a proxy hatch, no less) with two reapers and maybe two late hellions?
-I could buy MK saying he assumed the spine crawler on the minimap was an overlord. He had an SCV building a CC, which stayed in the lower left closest to the rocks for a long time and it's pretty close in vision. Later on, Byul does actually keep an overlord on that spot. It would be peculiar that it's winking at him the whole time since overlords aren't supposed to be visible in fog of war.
-He starts his third CC just as the creep is coming in. I think it's pretty ambiguous if he could have thought he missed something and there's no attack coming without seeing the creep until it was too late. You'd need the replay of his player cam to see it. The SPL observer shows his camera where you can see some creep, but he had already started his third CC. Still, he reacts VERY slowly to it.
So I think the circumstances are very strange. Even still, I would point out that MVP watched the replay with MK and they still believe him, so it maybe isn't THAT obvious from his player cam what he did or did not see. As with the quote of CJ's coach believing Savior, I would point out that the team is now putting its trust in MK. If it turns out he lied to them and let them put themselves out here like this, then they're a victim too. To call this putting their head in the sand like an ostrich is really being way too bitter and harsh, especially for a young guy. I'd be more charitable and say they're giving him every chance to come clean. If he's been spitting on those chances, then he deserves the consequences. But this is all part of the due process and I think far more preferable to the public humiliation, torture, and summary execution that lots of people here seem to want to see instead.
See, this is a good post, which differs to my opinion, but I have absolutely no urge to call this guy out, because he obviously read other's posts here, he is not being ignorant, and he stays on topic, not trying to make childish arguments, or making it into some emotional war. Now, compare his post to the people's I have called out so far. You know, like the guys who barfs in one sentence which screams from "I don't even care what you guys wrote so far, imma just butt in here for the lulz".
If you look at 3:45 into the game he sends the 1st reaper down his ramp briefly to check for a hatch at his nat and then brings it back up.
This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Which still doesn't explain why he didn't send anything over there to deny a scout of his base
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Why do people keep saying this? It sounds so inane and ignores everything else that went on in the game.
Such as the fact that MKP literally moved the unit that scouted the red dot away once it showed up on his mini-map.
He didn't even scout the spine intentionally, his building CC pushed a reaper into vision range. A reaper he immediately moved away.
But even the in-game issues could be glossed over (even if multiple pros have gone on record saying it's just not a mistake that can happen) if not for the fact that this is the 5th voided bet.
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Plus MarineKing didn't play with allied colors, ByuL is I believe whitish or something, and on the minimap dots show up like some doodad in the map or some mineral patch (especially near expands). It's actually easy to miss.
Here I'll try to come up with a scenario where MKP is not guilty. Perhaps it would be interesting to try to come up with the most likely scenario and compare those to facts, to see if anything fits as closely as the fixing.
You might be able to speculate that he was frustrated and maybe focusing too hard on his apm/thinking about his gameplan that it caused him to not note the timing of the pool, and assume that it was going to be a baneling bust. Then he puts his third down thinking that he could hold the bust with the extra base and doesn't care about it getting scouted so he doesn't check what he mistakes to be an overlord and has his camera mainly over his ramp anticipating the bust so he doesn't see the creep.
Then for the betting line...I don't know exactly how it works, but if a lot of people thought mkp was going to lose it could tilt the odds fairly far. Then people trying to ride matchixing waves might see that and jump in thinking the match was fixed. But I can't think of a reason why people would keep betting on byul once the payout got down to around 1:1.09.
That's the best I can do trying to stay somewhere in the realm of being realistic.
On April 23 2015 06:38 Bannt wrote: Here I'll try to come up with a scenario where MKP is not guilty. Perhaps it would be interesting to try to come up with the most likely scenario and compare those to facts, to see if anything fits as closely as the fixing.
You might be able to speculate that he was frustrated and maybe focusing too hard on his apm/thinking about his gameplan that it caused him to not note the timing of the pool, and assume that it was going to be a baneling bust. Then he puts his third down thinking that he could hold the bust with the extra base and doesn't care about it getting scouted so he doesn't check what he mistakes to be an overlord and has his camera mainly over his ramp anticipating the bust so he doesn't see the creep.
Then for the betting line...I don't know exactly how it works, but if a lot of people thought mkp was going to lose it could tilt the odds fairly far. Then people trying to ride matchixing waves might see that and jump in thinking the match was fixed. But I can't think of a reason why people would keep betting on byul once the payout got down to around 1:1.09.
That's the best I can do trying to stay somewhere in the realm of being realistic.
No queen, next to no gas mined, I can buy him missing the pool timing but not all three. Plus you see him react to the pool timing when his reaper passes it, he shifts forward in a clear "WTF?" move. I understand the want for him to be innocent and the idea is sound but he can't possibly be that much of an idiot.
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Is it possible that he had the same team colors on as the observer? I made a crude paintjob of the moment just before MK's gasp that's pretty telling:
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Is it possible that he had the same team colors on as the observer? I made a crude paintjob of the moment just before MK's gasp that's pretty telling:
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Is it possible that he had the same team colors on as the observer? I made a crude paintjob of the moment just before MK's gasp that's pretty telling:
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Is it possible that he had the same team colors on as the observer? I made a crude paintjob of the moment just before MK's gasp that's pretty telling:
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Is it possible that he had the same team colors on as the observer? I made a crude paintjob of the moment just before MK's gasp that's pretty telling:
People who are analyzing the gameplay and the possibility of MKP just being legit retarded should realize that there was nothing going on in the game, he had nowhere else to micro, nowhere else to look. Unless he did suddenly become a wood league player who was mouseclicking worker production during all that time - he would've noticed the spine that was on his minimap for like over a minute.
Btw, another thing that did disgust me was Wolf/Valdes saying on air stuff like "Please, forget about it, there was no evidence, move on" - thats just just them being :
1) Offensive to any intelligent viewers out there, threating them like a bunch of stupid sheeps 2) Blatanly dishonest - during the match, in a heat of a moment caster's opinion was "i couldnt believe that happened, it was the most bizzare game i've casted", they couldnt even rationalize on the spot how it was possible to play like MKP did. And yet like 2 weeks later they go on air like "Well, whatever, nothing happened, move on please." Really?
On April 23 2015 08:05 maGicc wrote: People who are analyzing the gameplay and the possibility of MKP just being legit retarded should realize that there was nothing going on in the game, he had nowhere else to micro, nowhere else to look. Unless he did suddenly become a wood league player who was mouseclicking worker production during all that time - he would've noticed the spine that was on his minimap for like over a minute.
Btw, another thing that did disgust me was Wolf/Valdes saying on air stuff like "Please, forget about it, there was no evidence, move on" - thats just just them being :
1) Offensive to any intelligent viewers out there, threating them like a bunch of stupid sheeps 2) Blatanly dishonest - during the match, in a heat of a moment caster's opinion was "i couldnt believe that happened, it was the most bizzare game i've casted", they couldnt even rationalize on the spot how it was possible to play like MKP did. And yet like 2 weeks later they go on air like "Well, whatever, nothing happened, move on please." Really?
No doubt GOM also has an interest in keeping the issue quiet. That seems to be the Korean leagues' strategy right now, even though they're just making it a ticking time bomb.
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
It is also the same player who lost 12 TvZ's in a row due to forgetting his depot wall was lowered. A lot of his losses look like he's having a laugh and there's no way he's been matchfixing all those games for years. The more logical conclusion is that he's just not a smart player. Occasionally the meta agreed with his timing pushes and he won some stuff, aside from that he's been plain bad.
ps. I'm not saying he definitely didn't matchfix, but "he played poorly so he's matchfixing" isn't a strong argument.
On April 23 2015 00:04 coverpunch wrote: Do you often find insulting people with differing opinions and straw-manning them to be a good way of convincing them to see things your way?
If you want a short and blunt answer: yes, I do.
[...]
There are quite a lot of people that don't want to vaccinate themselves or their kids because they think it's dangerous, while all the scientific evidence shows the opposite. They did a study on this where they took a bunch of anti-vaccination people and sent them through some education on the science of vaccination, and tested their opinion and knowledge of vaccination before and after. Turned out that they did get more educated and many of the common misunderstandings were corrected, but they were still as opposed, or more in some cases, to actually do it themselves or on their kids.
Point being, to convince people about something, throwing "facts" at them, contradicting their standpoint, sometimes simply doesn't do the trick. I guess it is an emotional response where you polarise the discussion? I don't think it's a matter of people being stupid or mentally handicapped, or "bad at the game" or whatever people are insinuating. Probably it's just a matter of a quickly formed opinion at some point, which has then been reinforced through the very polarising environment in these threads.
So I think a better strategy to convince people is to acknowledge them a bit more, trying to defuse the polarisation a bit, and then gently point them to where they can find good information.
But if you find insults effective, we can do good cop - bad cop...
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
It is also the same player who lost 12 TvZ's in a row due to forgetting his depot wall was lowered. A lot of his losses look like he's having a laugh and there's no way he's been matchfixing all those games for years. The more logical conclusion is that he's just not a smart player. Occasionally the meta agreed with his timing pushes and he won some stuff, aside from that he's been plain bad.
ps. I'm not saying he definitely didn't matchfix, but "he played poorly so he's matchfixing" isn't a strong argument.
You do realize lowering a depot is a complete different situation? It's like saying Naniwa didn't lose on purpose when he a-moved his workers in to Nestea's base in the beginning of the match, because in one of his games before he forgot warpgate.
I mean how bad do you have to play, where's the line? Every pro player that has commented on the matter say that line was crossed here. What does that tell you? Not a single pro (to my knowledge) has defended MK's play.
On April 23 2015 08:54 mechengineer123 wrote: ps. I'm not saying he definitely didn't matchfix, but "he played poorly so he's matchfixing" isn't a strong argument.
I wish people would stop pretending that this is the argument.
He happened to play like crap in the 5th game that Pinnacle said was not competed on a fair basis. And he happened to lose, just like all other games Pinnacle flagged.
Add on that the only pro's who've talked about the game have universally said - "ya, that was a throw" and there's a lot more than this reductionist argument that MKP's defenders keep trying to make.
On April 23 2015 08:05 maGicc wrote: People who are analyzing the gameplay and the possibility of MKP just being legit retarded should realize that there was nothing going on in the game, he had nowhere else to micro, nowhere else to look. Unless he did suddenly become a wood league player who was mouseclicking worker production during all that time - he would've noticed the spine that was on his minimap for like over a minute.
Btw, another thing that did disgust me was Wolf/Valdes saying on air stuff like "Please, forget about it, there was no evidence, move on" - thats just just them being :
1) Offensive to any intelligent viewers out there, threating them like a bunch of stupid sheeps 2) Blatanly dishonest - during the match, in a heat of a moment caster's opinion was "i couldnt believe that happened, it was the most bizzare game i've casted", they couldnt even rationalize on the spot how it was possible to play like MKP did. And yet like 2 weeks later they go on air like "Well, whatever, nothing happened, move on please." Really?
No doubt GOM also has an interest in keeping the issue quiet. That seems to be the Korean leagues' strategy right now, even though they're just making it a ticking time bomb.
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
It is also the same player who lost 12 TvZ's in a row due to forgetting his depot wall was lowered. A lot of his losses look like he's having a laugh and there's no way he's been matchfixing all those games for years. The more logical conclusion is that he's just not a smart player. Occasionally the meta agreed with his timing pushes and he won some stuff, aside from that he's been plain bad.
ps. I'm not saying he definitely didn't matchfix, but "he played poorly so he's matchfixing" isn't a strong argument.
You do realize lowering a depot is a complete different situation? It's like saying Naniwa didn't lose on purpose when he a-moved his workers in to Nestea's base in the beginning of the match, because in one of his games before he forgot warpgate.
I mean how bad do you have to play, where's the line? Every pro player that has commented on the matter say that line was crossed here. What does that tell you? Not a single pro (to my knowledge) has defended MK's play.
Every pro is going to say they would never do those things but I watched pro's rally 4 strait collosi into an opponents army and have them die each time and not notice. I have multiple times watched pros right click there armies into seige tank lines that they can see and lose a big chunk of that army for no discernable reason. To bring the classic one with JD he was missing a massive part of his army and for 10 minutes didnt think "why is my army so tiny? Shouldnt it be bigger then this?"
Every pro would probably say they would never make those mistakes but you know what Jaedong was better then all of the pro's who would all swear they would never make that mistake if it werent made by Jaedong but he did so anyone can make any mistake on any day and I am more inclined to believe someone who looked like a walking corpse is more prone to making a boneheaded mistake.
i want to provide my "short" 2c with being a fan and viewer of professional SC2 since release. i am not a fan of MKP's play/playstyle and while i was an active player myself, i really tried to pick apart his decision making and his mechanics. the source of that information was his streaming, his replays, and his commentated VODs. i respect him as a player because his decision making at times is sound and he's able to place himself in a situation where he is at an advantage. in short, he's an (strategically and mechanically) abusive player who does not choke so hard when few units are on the board. that made for lopsided or extremely tense games sometimes, and this was all through his style of play.
that being said, i'm never impressed by the way he holds himself at any point in a game. to a starcraft player, their mechanics are key in defining the plays they're capable or comfortable making--or even how successful they are with various builds. you can tell from a FPVOD how their tendencies and nuances are like, or what kind of preferences they have. a simple example of a preference is simple bio or mech as a terran player. it's often far more intricate than that, though. one of the ways a player corrects a mishap or recurring mistake is through repetition and practice. frankly, that's one of the reassuring elements of this game (or RTS in general) that makes it fun as a player; you know that if you put constructive efforts into an idea or a tactic, you can eventually make it work. it's much like going into training as a fighting game player.
MKP as a player obviously practices like any other pro in the business. he had a stint where he retired and tried out LoL as more than just a hobby, though that doesn't really say anything about him. he has improved his previous aggressive styles and started incorporating a macro-orientated backdrop to most of his strategies. his over-arching strategy has always been to take risks and watch out for certain timings--whether practiced or not--and now he does this with macro as well.
getting to the point now, i think it's a mistake he would make. i'm talking about the one in the game in question. the reasons i have for this are simple: - his basic mechanics are slowed down and simplified. he's not a nimble player at heart. he focuses on timings and small-army management. it forces his positioning to be good and his general prediction and foresight to be correct most of the time. - he often doesn't pay attention to things on the map that he thinks does not concern him, whereas other pros will take a glance to double over efforts any way they can. - it was somewhat of a fresh strategy (albeit, one used by byul before). which is interesting to me because if MKP ever plays that map again in any sort of streamed match, he better fucking scout for it from now till the day he retires again, LOL. - the dude throws games regularly and in awful manner even if he doesn't intend to, and to his credit, he often makes games close and exciting to watch whether you cheering for or against him.
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
It is also the same player who lost 12 TvZ's in a row due to forgetting his depot wall was lowered. A lot of his losses look like he's having a laugh and there's no way he's been matchfixing all those games for years. The more logical conclusion is that he's just not a smart player. Occasionally the meta agreed with his timing pushes and he won some stuff, aside from that he's been plain bad.
ps. I'm not saying he definitely didn't matchfix, but "he played poorly so he's matchfixing" isn't a strong argument.
You do realize lowering a depot is a complete different situation? It's like saying Naniwa didn't lose on purpose when he a-moved his workers in to Nestea's base in the beginning of the match, because in one of his games before he forgot warpgate.
I mean how bad do you have to play, where's the line? Every pro player that has commented on the matter say that line was crossed here. What does that tell you? Not a single pro (to my knowledge) has defended MK's play.
Every pro is going to say they would never do those things but I watched pro's rally 4 strait collosi into an opponents army and have them die each time and not notice. I have multiple times watched pros right click there armies into seige tank lines that they can see and lose a big chunk of that army for no discernable reason. To bring the classic one with JD he was missing a massive part of his army and for 10 minutes didnt think "why is my army so tiny? Shouldnt it be bigger then this?"
The thing is if you play the game at a decent level you'll understand how these things can happen. Misclicks/brain explosions happen with split-second decision-making. The Jaedong thing was hilarious but I could understand how it happened in the context of the game (got caught up in dealing with constant multi-prong attacks and barely surviving), the ramp was between location hotkeys and hold-positioned drones blocking it is such an unusual situation. Misrallies aren't that easy to notice in action-packed games and I can see how 4 could potentially happen (though it is terrible). However, missing a visible proxied building on the minimap for 75 seconds early game is just not feasible for a conscious progamer who normally has a reaction time of a second or two. In 10+ years of pro-BW there wasn't a case of anything more than a few seconds delay in reaction time. The vast majority of proxy reactions being virtually instant. I've never seen anything close to a mistake like this, even in low level amateur games, in any RTS. It's pretty telling that MKP hasn't explained it and no other progamer can make sense of it either.
So either he made an impossible mistake or he scouted a cheese too early, panicked, froze for too long then just continued to pretend he couldn't see it. Even in a game without suspicious betting I'm going with the latter.
Has anyone tried to find a MK game where he sees no hatch/late pool and opens similarly? You might be able to compare scouting patters somewhat granted there are a lot of variables.
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
It is also the same player who lost 12 TvZ's in a row due to forgetting his depot wall was lowered. A lot of his losses look like he's having a laugh and there's no way he's been matchfixing all those games for years. The more logical conclusion is that he's just not a smart player. Occasionally the meta agreed with his timing pushes and he won some stuff, aside from that he's been plain bad.
ps. I'm not saying he definitely didn't matchfix, but "he played poorly so he's matchfixing" isn't a strong argument.
You do realize lowering a depot is a complete different situation? It's like saying Naniwa didn't lose on purpose when he a-moved his workers in to Nestea's base in the beginning of the match, because in one of his games before he forgot warpgate.
I mean how bad do you have to play, where's the line? Every pro player that has commented on the matter say that line was crossed here. What does that tell you? Not a single pro (to my knowledge) has defended MK's play.
Every pro is going to say they would never do those things but I watched pro's rally 4 strait collosi into an opponents army and have them die each time and not notice. I have multiple times watched pros right click there armies into seige tank lines that they can see and lose a big chunk of that army for no discernable reason. To bring the classic one with JD he was missing a massive part of his army and for 10 minutes didnt think "why is my army so tiny? Shouldnt it be bigger then this?"
Every pro would probably say they would never make those mistakes but you know what Jaedong was better then all of the pro's who would all swear they would never make that mistake if it werent made by Jaedong but he did so anyone can make any mistake on any day and I am more inclined to believe someone who looked like a walking corpse is more prone to making a boneheaded mistake.
No, every pro is NOT going to say that. Stop putting words in to pros' mouths or provide a source. On the other hand, there are tons of links about pros saying MK lost on purpose. So that is a horrible straw man argument, sorry.
On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote: I think everyone who claims mkp didn't throw on purpose is immensely delusional. I don't know if this has been done before but i am going to explain why this game is unbelievably obviously fixed to people who are not that familiar with (pro level) sc2.
First of all, we need to think logically. MKP is not stupid. He saw a late gas and pool with no natural with his scouting SCV, thus he concluded that the hatchery must be somewhere else, which is why he checked the gold bases. He KNEW there was a hatchery somewhere on the map. Upon not finding anything at the gold bases he concluded (he had to, there were no other options) that the hatch must be somewhere proxied on the map.
What would anyone right in their mind do? Check their main first. He didn't . He opened reaper, so he could scout very easily and efficiently. I can understand some arguments for leaving the first one at home to defend, but as soon as the second reaper popped there was no reason for him to not look around for the hatch with at least one of them, since his main was completely walled in. Fact is, his reapers were sitting at home the entire time because he didn't want to find the hatch., since it is very simple to win the game once you scout something like this which he didn't want, obviously.
Sadly, for him, he scouted the proxy nonetheless, in form of a spine crawler at around 4:30 (video time). Let me get this straight. The spine was visible for over 1 minute and 20 seconds of real time. Pro players look at their minimap every two or three seconds. Marineking was on one base, he didn't even have any units out on the map, so it's impossible that he was too busy to see it. He definitely saw it, maybe not immediately, but no player above gold league doesn't notice something like this in one and a half minutes. Marineking played this game for over five years, i don't have to explain that he saw it by now.
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
To top that off, at around 5:30 (video time) there is creep visible inside his main base right besides the Command Center. It's just there, on his main screen, not to mention there is a huge purple blurp on the minimap. So even IF we pretend, again, he DIDN'T look the the minimap for more than 2 minutes, he definitely saw the creep there. He did not respond whatsoever. After ByuL breaks down the rocks the game is over, MKP 'tries' to defend with good micro but at that point the game was 100% over so he could finally drop his act and start playing.
So if you say 'maybe he had a bad day', please can you explain all these points i mentioned above then? That's like you saying a computer expert didn't find the button to turn his PC on because he had a bad day. No matter how bad of a day he had, the things that happened were unexplicable.
Sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if this has been explained in great detail already, but maybe i could provide some insight to those of you who didn't really get why people found this game so absurdly strange.
I'll make a couple points here:
-The scouting is definitely suspicious. The SCV scouts no natural, scouts the late pool (with gas first), scouts the gold bases, then goes back home to mine. I guess MK would argue he thought it was a speedling and/or baneling bust incoming, but it doesn't really explain why he wouldn't keep something outside the base to keep scouting or if he knew it was a proxy hatch, why he wouldn't keep trying to find it with his scouting SCV.
-Keeping reapers at home is also strange. Again, maybe he would say he was expecting a big attack, but he builds no bunkers or extra production buildings, simply teching to reactor hellions. Can he really expect to hold a speedling all-in or baneling bust (from a proxy hatch, no less) with two reapers and maybe two late hellions?
-I could buy MK saying he assumed the spine crawler on the minimap was an overlord. He had an SCV building a CC, which stayed in the lower left closest to the rocks for a long time and it's pretty close in vision. Later on, Byul does actually keep an overlord on that spot. It would be peculiar that it's winking at him the whole time since overlords aren't supposed to be visible in fog of war.
-He starts his third CC just as the creep is coming in. I think it's pretty ambiguous if he could have thought he missed something and there's no attack coming without seeing the creep until it was too late. You'd need the replay of his player cam to see it. The SPL observer shows his camera where you can see some creep, but he had already started his third CC. Still, he reacts VERY slowly to it.
So I think the circumstances are very strange. Even still, I would point out that MVP watched the replay with MK and they still believe him, so it maybe isn't THAT obvious from his player cam what he did or did not see. As with the quote of CJ's coach believing Savior, I would point out that the team is now putting its trust in MK. If it turns out he lied to them and let them put themselves out here like this, then they're a victim too. To call this putting their head in the sand like an ostrich is really being way too bitter and harsh, especially for a young guy. I'd be more charitable and say they're giving him every chance to come clean. If he's been spitting on those chances, then he deserves the consequences. But this is all part of the due process and I think far more preferable to the public humiliation, torture, and summary execution that lots of people here seem to want to see instead.
MVP guards MK, they have to know he matchfixed but they just don't make it public. Or they're extremely stupid. Or they don't want to know. You see, they ask him 'well dude did you matchfix?' -'nah i didn't' -'really? ' -'no' MK INNOCENT THANKS CASE CLOSED there are ways of finding out if he fixed if they wanted to. they could check his skype/fb messages, check his bank account for suspicious amounts of money coming out of nowhere etc. The fact is that they don't, which implies one of the options i mentioned above.
Oh and he didn't have permanent vision of the spine, which as you said 'could have been an overlord', thus the yellow dot would disappear, since you can't permanently see overlords on the map without vision, while the dot from the spine would still be there even if he lost vision, since it's a building. So even that theory doesn't work.
Nah, this is what I mean by torturing him. They can't do those things. Going through his personal communications or his bank accounts is a tremendous violation of his constitutionally protected rights against searches without cause, not to mention the ugly personal signals it sends to the captain of their own team. I'm pretty alarmed at how casual and easy you think it is to ask someone for records of their private conversations and financial records or worse, to obtain it without their consent.
Put it this way: you could also figure this out pretty quickly if you tied him down to a board with a towel over his face and poured water on it to induce sensations of drowning until he just admitted it. Want the team to do that?
water boarding analogy really? as ridiculous as a notion that is. No, you wouldn't necessarily get the truth out of either. That would be just flat out torture for such an accusation. Also checking records are what the police are for. they would look into illegal gambling and the people associated with it if they had good reason to.
You know...after hearing all of this "he couldn't be that stupid" argument, I'd like everyone to take a breather and give a round of golfclaps to Byul for having his proxy hatch scouted by someone who was almost certainly trying his best not to scout it.
On April 23 2015 09:55 nanaoei wrote: i want to provide my "short" 2c with being a fan and viewer of professional SC2 since release. i am not a fan of MKP's play/playstyle and while i was an active player myself, i really tried to pick apart his decision making and his mechanics. the source of that information was his streaming, his replays, and his commentated VODs. i respect him as a player because his decision making at times is sound and he's able to place himself in a situation where he is at an advantage. in short, he's an (strategically and mechanically) abusive player who does not choke so hard when few units are on the board. that made for lopsided or extremely tense games sometimes, and this was all through his style of play.
that being said, i'm never impressed by the way he holds himself at any point in a game. to a starcraft player, their mechanics are key in defining the plays they're capable or comfortable making--or even how successful they are with various builds. you can tell from a FPVOD how their tendencies and nuances are like, or what kind of preferences they have. a simple example of a preference is simple bio or mech as a terran player. it's often far more intricate than that, though. one of the ways a player corrects a mishap or recurring mistake is through repetition and practice. frankly, that's one of the reassuring elements of this game (or RTS in general) that makes it fun as a player; you know that if you put constructive efforts into an idea or a tactic, you can eventually make it work. it's much like going into training as a fighting game player.
MKP as a player obviously practices like any other pro in the business. he had a stint where he retired and tried out LoL as more than just a hobby, though that doesn't really say anything about him. he has improved his previous aggressive styles and started incorporating a macro-orientated backdrop to most of his strategies. his over-arching strategy has always been to take risks and watch out for certain timings--whether practiced or not--and now he does this with macro as well.
getting to the point now, i think it's a mistake he would make. i'm talking about the one in the game in question. the reasons i have for this are simple: - his basic mechanics are slowed down and simplified. he's not a nimble player at heart. he focuses on timings and small-army management. it forces his positioning to be good and his general prediction and foresight to be correct most of the time. - he often doesn't pay attention to things on the map that he thinks does not concern him, whereas other pros will take a glance to double over efforts any way they can. - it was somewhat of a fresh strategy (albeit, one used by byul before). which is interesting to me because if MKP ever plays that map again in any sort of streamed match, he better fucking scout for it from now till the day he retires again, LOL. - the dude throws games regularly and in awful manner even if he doesn't intend to, and to his credit, he often makes games close and exciting to watch whether you cheering for or against him.
You have to realize the severity of MarineKing's mistakes in the game. They are not normal or reasonable. They are extreme to the point of being nearly impossible. And you want to know why? Because he's on one base. You must know that it's easy to sit in one base, make some buildings, and do nothing else. It's like the back of MarineKing's hand.
He did not need to think about a "fresh strategy" (late pool no gas no hatch = proxy hatch 99% of the time). He does not need to be nimble or have extremely fast mechanics he's on one fucking base lol. He's on one base, and for one minute of time, he does not check the dot on his minimap that he MUST KNOW is outside of his current vision. He even reacts late to the creep up against his cc LOL. How much more obvious can it get?
And you want to know what else? The bets on the game were deliberately manipulated with very large sums of money in order to maximize the profit off MarineKing losing game 1.
I don't know how much clearer to make it that the probability of match fixing is extremely high. To me, there's no question.
On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote: This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first? This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
It is also the same player who lost 12 TvZ's in a row due to forgetting his depot wall was lowered. A lot of his losses look like he's having a laugh and there's no way he's been matchfixing all those games for years. The more logical conclusion is that he's just not a smart player. Occasionally the meta agreed with his timing pushes and he won some stuff, aside from that he's been plain bad.
ps. I'm not saying he definitely didn't matchfix, but "he played poorly so he's matchfixing" isn't a strong argument.
You do realize lowering a depot is a complete different situation? It's like saying Naniwa didn't lose on purpose when he a-moved his workers in to Nestea's base in the beginning of the match, because in one of his games before he forgot warpgate.
I mean how bad do you have to play, where's the line? Every pro player that has commented on the matter say that line was crossed here. What does that tell you? Not a single pro (to my knowledge) has defended MK's play.
Every pro is going to say they would never do those things but I watched pro's rally 4 strait collosi into an opponents army and have them die each time and not notice. I have multiple times watched pros right click there armies into seige tank lines that they can see and lose a big chunk of that army for no discernable reason. To bring the classic one with JD he was missing a massive part of his army and for 10 minutes didnt think "why is my army so tiny? Shouldnt it be bigger then this?"
Every pro would probably say they would never make those mistakes but you know what Jaedong was better then all of the pro's who would all swear they would never make that mistake if it werent made by Jaedong but he did so anyone can make any mistake on any day and I am more inclined to believe someone who looked like a walking corpse is more prone to making a boneheaded mistake.
No, every pro is NOT going to say that. Stop putting words in to pros' mouths or provide a source. On the other hand, there are tons of links about pros saying MK lost on purpose. So that is a horrible straw man argument, sorry.
Not saying you are wrong, but for the purpose of collecting information, can you provide some of these links?
On April 22 2015 12:04 Cascade wrote: Yeah, it's probably about time to put all the evidence together, including proper sources for everything, and put it in the OP or something. Or at least to have ready for number 6... Just so that it'll be easier for people to get an overview and form their own opinion without being flamed for failing to dig up the information. Many are talking about how "awareness" of this is important: well then the thing you can do is make the information easily available in a readable format, right?
I'll make a first draft based on other peoples efforts in this thread, but maybe others can track down the missing sources and format it in a more readable way. I'll just dump it here and see if someone wants to pick it up.
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter.
Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on.
^^ all of these needs sources, not least the line movements and pinnacle closing the lines.
What's interesting is that KeSPA actually also gave a statement confirming that this is happening to a lot of players/teams and that the appropriate authorities were notified (presumably the police). The implication being that an investigation would be started, but of course this was a long time ago.
On April 21 2015 23:53 LA_Morello wrote: Guys, is there a link to the match or something? I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start?
well shit a lot of the links in it are dead and would be in Korean. I know TL had extensive coverage of the proceedings and how everything went down including how the manager first found out about it in the practice room and how SaviOr lied directly to his face (ofc he didn't want it to be revealed). It wasn't going to change anything considering how many people were involved or knew of it happening.
There are vods of Huk / Kane / Desrow / Destiny going over the game in question on Remax and Lycanthrope or something. Unfortunately, I can't find the vods right now, but at least here's Huk talking about how crappy things are in Korea to allow this to keep going on: http://www.twitch.tv/desrowfighting/v/4031346?t=2h36m49s
There's one very simple fact that MKP's valiant defenders don't seem to grasp.
This isn't about MKP anymore.
For every one idiot who says that MKP should be impeached, disbarred from Congress, thrown in prison and waterboarded, I see a hundred other posters saying simply that KOREAN SC2 IS IN A VERY BAD PLACE. That's what matters. Take a minute away from worrying about what our pitchforks are doing to MKP's career, and consider that when Korean SC2 goes belly-up, because, when match-fixing is finally exposed, it's so huge that it drags EVERYBODY down... MKP's career will end, too. And so will everyone else's. Those are the stakes we're dealing with right now.
I couldn't possibly care less about what happens to MKP right now. If he's innocent, fantastic. If he's guilty, he's just one symptom of a festering infection that is much bigger than him. I personally wouldn't glean much satisfaction from seeing him thrown behind bars or fined $100,000 or otherwise turned into a scapegoat.
For the truth to come to light, KeSPA needs to be pressured into a public investigation. They need to know that the sort of 'compelling evidence' that MVP presented in their defense of MKP will not cut it.
With no ill will to MKP, MVP throwing him under the bus would have been the best possible outcome for the scene, because it would have forced KeSPA's hand.
What we got -- a biased endorsement of MKP that may or may not be meaningless -- not only doesn't help him in the eyes of skeptics, but it means that regardless of his guilt or innocence, match fixing will go on undeterred for the foreseeable future. That's the bigger issue.
If you don't see that -- if you're still preoccupied with making sure that no one is saying that we have "conclusive 100% proof" that MKP is guilty, which we obviously don't -- then you're not seeing the forest for the trees, you're missing the real conversation, and you're completely missing the gravity of the situation in Korea.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anything that's in our power to do other than continue to be annoying about this and not let it get brushed aside.
On April 23 2015 21:35 pure.Wasted wrote: There's one very simple fact that MKP's valiant defenders don't seem to grasp.
This isn't about MKP anymore.
For every one idiot who says that MKP should be impeached, disbarred from Congress, thrown in prison and waterboarded, I see a hundred other posters saying simply that KOREAN SC2 IS IN A VERY BAD PLACE. That's what matters. Take a minute away from worrying about what our pitchforks are doing to MKP's career, and consider that when Korean SC2 goes belly-up, because, when match-fixing is finally exposed, it's so huge that it drags EVERYBODY down... MKP's career will end, too. And so will everyone else's. Those are the stakes we're dealing with right now.
I couldn't possibly care less about what happens to MKP right now. If he's innocent, fantastic. If he's guilty, he's just one symptom of a festering infection that is much bigger than him. I personally wouldn't glean much satisfaction from seeing him thrown behind bars or fined $100,000 or otherwise turned into a scapegoat.
For the truth to come to light, KeSPA needs to be pressured into a public investigation. They need to know that the sort of 'compelling evidence' that MVP presented in their defense of MKP will not cut it.
With no ill will to MKP, MVP throwing him under the bus would have been the best possible outcome for the scene, because it would have forced KeSPA's hand.
What we got -- a biased endorsement of MKP that may or may not be meaningless -- not only doesn't help him in the eyes of skeptics, but it means that regardless of his guilt or innocence, match fixing will go on undeterred for the foreseeable future. That's the bigger issue.
If you don't see that -- if you're still preoccupied with making sure that no one is saying that we have "conclusive 100% proof" that MKP is guilty, which we obviously don't -- then you're not seeing the forest for the trees, you're missing the real conversation, and you're completely missing the gravity of the situation in Korea.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anything that's in our power to do other than continue to be annoying about this and not let it get brushed aside.
Good post. I wouldn't be surprised btw if MVP's decision to defend MK was done in consultation with KeSPA..
On April 23 2015 21:35 pure.Wasted wrote: There's one very simple fact that MKP's valiant defenders don't seem to grasp.
This isn't about MKP anymore.
For every one idiot who says that MKP should be impeached, disbarred from Congress, thrown in prison and waterboarded, I see a hundred other posters saying simply that KOREAN SC2 IS IN A VERY BAD PLACE. That's what matters. Take a minute away from worrying about what our pitchforks are doing to MKP's career, and consider that when Korean SC2 goes belly-up, because, when match-fixing is finally exposed, it's so huge that it drags EVERYBODY down... MKP's career will end, too. And so will everyone else's. Those are the stakes we're dealing with right now.
I couldn't possibly care less about what happens to MKP right now. If he's innocent, fantastic. If he's guilty, he's just one symptom of a festering infection that is much bigger than him. I personally wouldn't glean much satisfaction from seeing him thrown behind bars or fined $100,000 or otherwise turned into a scapegoat.
For the truth to come to light, KeSPA needs to be pressured into a public investigation. They need to know that the sort of 'compelling evidence' that MVP presented in their defense of MKP will not cut it.
With no ill will to MKP, MVP throwing him under the bus would have been the best possible outcome for the scene, because it would have forced KeSPA's hand.
What we got -- a biased endorsement of MKP that may or may not be meaningless -- not only doesn't help him in the eyes of skeptics, but it means that regardless of his guilt or innocence, match fixing will go on undeterred for the foreseeable future. That's the bigger issue.
If you don't see that -- if you're still preoccupied with making sure that no one is saying that we have "conclusive 100% proof" that MKP is guilty, which we obviously don't -- then you're not seeing the forest for the trees, you're missing the real conversation, and you're completely missing the gravity of the situation in Korea.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anything that's in our power to do other than continue to be annoying about this and not let it get brushed aside.
Good post. I wouldn't be surprised btw if MVP's decision to defend MK was done in consultation with KeSPA..
I think I would be more surprised to learn MVP didn't consult KeSPA before releasing their statement. Also wanted to echo what a great post pure.Wasted wrote.
Is there anything that us as a community can do to pressure the organizations involved that this is unacceptable? I don't think talking about it here have much effect. Kespa don't seem to care. How about blizzard? Will they take a more serious view on this and pressure Kespa?
On April 23 2015 22:22 Samx wrote: Is there anything that us as a community can do to pressure the organizations involved that this is unacceptable? I don't think talking about it here have much effect. Kespa don't seem to care. How about blizzard? Will they take a more serious view on this and pressure Kespa?
Well, there's one thing but I'm not sure if we want to go down that road
On April 23 2015 22:34 fruity. wrote: So match fixing will kill SC2 like it did with broodwar? Right.
NaDa had 22k viewers 3 days ago.
Match fixing allegations will and are bad for the scene, but to imply it will kill it. Sorry, not gonna happen.
Implying of course that a famous BW player returning after his military service is ANY indication of the scene as a whole
You're missing the point that broodwar had a bigger scandal over match fixing, and is still going strong. Go look up hwasin.
Broodwar was also A LOT bigger than SC2. But I don't really get your original post tbh, unless you mean that KeSPA is the "implier". I think most people here want an investigation asap to PREVENT SC2 going down
On April 23 2015 22:51 Penev wrote: Broodwar was also A LOT bigger than SC2. But I don't really get your original post tbh, unless you mean that KeSPA is the "implier". I think most people here want an investigation asap to PREVENT SC2 going down
My point is, that even if a thorough investigation was done (which for all we know could be happening, though I frankly doubt this) It's not going to kill Starcraft.
It's not good for the scene, of course no one will say otherwise, but at least in my eyes to say match fixing will kill starcraft - it's a grossly negative view.
On April 23 2015 22:51 Penev wrote: Broodwar was also A LOT bigger than SC2. But I don't really get your original post tbh, unless you mean that KeSPA is the "implier". I think most people here want an investigation asap to PREVENT SC2 going down
My point is, that even if a thorough investigation was done (which for all we know could be happening, though I frankly doubt this) It's not going to kill Starcraft.
It's not good for the scene, of course no one will say otherwise, but at least in my eyes to say match fixing will kill starcraft - it's a grossly negative view.
But not many people are really saying that (besides maybe KeSPA one could speculate). The posts, at least on this page, are all saying "pls KeSPA, start the investigation asap, otherwise the possible damage done will only get bigger. You shouldn't underestimate this damage btw; BW shrunk significantly when the bomb hit.
On April 23 2015 22:51 Penev wrote: Broodwar was also A LOT bigger than SC2. But I don't really get your original post tbh, unless you mean that KeSPA is the "implier". I think most people here want an investigation asap to PREVENT SC2 going down
My point is, that even if a thorough investigation was done (which for all we know could be happening, though I frankly doubt this) It's not going to kill Starcraft.
It's not good for the scene, of course no one will say otherwise, but at least in my eyes to say match fixing will kill starcraft - it's a grossly negative view.
It's a grossly puerile view to pretend that the death of starcraft 2 isn't a possibility.
It isn't assumed that Starcraft 2 will die from this matchfixing scandal, but it is assumed that match fixing will harm Starcraft 2. If you don't believe that last point, I would love to hear why.
It's a grossly puerile view to pretend that the death of starcraft 2 isn't a possibility.
It isn't assumed that Starcraft 2 will die from this matchfixing scandal, but it is assumed that match fixing will harm Starcraft 2. If you don't believe that last point, I would love to hear why.
Your first 2 sentences contradict themselves somewhat.
Also, I prefer to live in a world where the positive over the negative is prefered, each to their own.
On April 23 2015 23:37 Penev wrote: But not many people are really saying that (besides maybe KeSPA one could speculate). The posts, at least on this page, are all saying "pls KeSPA, start the investigation asap, otherwise the possible damage done will only get bigger. You shouldn't underestimate this damage btw; BW shrunk significantly when the bomb hit.
Fair points.
Does anyone here really believe that KESPA has not looked in to this? Of course they have. They might not of told us their thoughts.
Let's say for the sake of argument that KESPA have looked in to this. Now after their investigation they come to the conclusion that they don't have (enough) Proof. What are they to do?
Release a statement like MVPs where most of the community just call it a white wash? It's catch 22 for KESPA without definitive proof.
My personal opinion is that MK is more guilty than a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo. But that's just my opinion, and I'm not asking for his head on a pole, it's just my opinion.
I feel that any statement KESPA makes wont be well received by the community, if they couldn't find proof - any statement would just be dismissed, just like MVPs was.
On April 23 2015 21:35 pure.Wasted wrote: There's one very simple fact that MKP's valiant defenders don't seem to grasp.
This isn't about MKP anymore.
For every one idiot who says that MKP should be impeached, disbarred from Congress, thrown in prison and waterboarded, I see a hundred other posters saying simply that KOREAN SC2 IS IN A VERY BAD PLACE. That's what matters. Take a minute away from worrying about what our pitchforks are doing to MKP's career, and consider that when Korean SC2 goes belly-up, because, when match-fixing is finally exposed, it's so huge that it drags EVERYBODY down... MKP's career will end, too. And so will everyone else's. Those are the stakes we're dealing with right now.
I couldn't possibly care less about what happens to MKP right now. If he's innocent, fantastic. If he's guilty, he's just one symptom of a festering infection that is much bigger than him. I personally wouldn't glean much satisfaction from seeing him thrown behind bars or fined $100,000 or otherwise turned into a scapegoat.
For the truth to come to light, KeSPA needs to be pressured into a public investigation. They need to know that the sort of 'compelling evidence' that MVP presented in their defense of MKP will not cut it.
With no ill will to MKP, MVP throwing him under the bus would have been the best possible outcome for the scene, because it would have forced KeSPA's hand.
What we got -- a biased endorsement of MKP that may or may not be meaningless -- not only doesn't help him in the eyes of skeptics, but it means that regardless of his guilt or innocence, match fixing will go on undeterred for the foreseeable future. That's the bigger issue.
If you don't see that -- if you're still preoccupied with making sure that no one is saying that we have "conclusive 100% proof" that MKP is guilty, which we obviously don't -- then you're not seeing the forest for the trees, you're missing the real conversation, and you're completely missing the gravity of the situation in Korea.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anything that's in our power to do other than continue to be annoying about this and not let it get brushed aside.
Good post. I wouldn't be surprised btw if MVP's decision to defend MK was done in consultation with KeSPA..
I think I would be more surprised to learn MVP didn't consult KeSPA before releasing their statement. Also wanted to echo what a great post pure.Wasted wrote.
considering how strict KeSPA is and what they have done in the past. I think a lot of people have no idea what they do or have done.
It's a grossly puerile view to pretend that the death of starcraft 2 isn't a possibility.
It isn't assumed that Starcraft 2 will die from this matchfixing scandal, but it is assumed that match fixing will harm Starcraft 2. If you don't believe that last point, I would love to hear why.
Your first 2 sentences contradict themselves somewhat.
Also, I prefer to live in a world where the positive over the negative is prefered, each to their own.
I live in the world where "reality" is preferred.
My sentences don't contradict each other.
My first sentence says I believe your beliefs are juvenile in that you drastically underestimate the potential damage this scandal could bring.
The first part of my second sentence agrees with you that it is not inevitable the SC2 scene will die. The second part of my second sentence says people generally assume that when the match fixing scandal is fully-revealed, it will damage SC2.
The unknown -- and the reason you believe I am contradicting myself -- is how much damage will come from this scandal. You say you prefer to live in a world where the positive is preferred, in this case, I believe, insinuating that you don't think this will cause the "death of SC2".
I guess in "positive world" Brood War is alive and kicking, and match fixing didn't kill it. But I think what myself and others in this thread are looking at is the opportunity cost incurred from match fixing occurring. Based on what actually happened, BW is not as big as it would have been if match fixing hadn't occurred. Is it dead? I guess that's personal opinion.
he cant anything you guys accept ... its either "ok i did" or he lied ... its stupid without proof its like witchhunting damn you act like your streight out of the 1600's
On April 24 2015 05:46 maGicc wrote: Sometimes i really think all these people repeating "no proof" and "witchhunt" are just trolling.
Most of them are just misinformed, which is why i still would greatly appreciate a thread which collects all the information we have objectively in the op, explains how the betting system works AND doesn't allow comments. But that won't happen
On April 24 2015 05:46 maGicc wrote: Sometimes i really think all these people repeating "no proof" and "witchhunt" are just trolling.
This. Posts like these here
On April 23 2015 09:55 nanaoei wrote: i want to provide my "short" 2c with being a fan and viewer of professional SC2 since release. i am not a fan of MKP's play/playstyle and while i was an active player myself, i really tried to pick apart his decision making and his mechanics. the source of that information was his streaming, his replays, and his commentated VODs. i respect him as a player because his decision making at times is sound and he's able to place himself in a situation where he is at an advantage. in short, he's an (strategically and mechanically) abusive player who does not choke so hard when few units are on the board. that made for lopsided or extremely tense games sometimes, and this was all through his style of play.
that being said, i'm never impressed by the way he holds himself at any point in a game. to a starcraft player, their mechanics are key in defining the plays they're capable or comfortable making--or even how successful they are with various builds. you can tell from a FPVOD how their tendencies and nuances are like, or what kind of preferences they have. a simple example of a preference is simple bio or mech as a terran player. it's often far more intricate than that, though. one of the ways a player corrects a mishap or recurring mistake is through repetition and practice. frankly, that's one of the reassuring elements of this game (or RTS in general) that makes it fun as a player; you know that if you put constructive efforts into an idea or a tactic, you can eventually make it work. it's much like going into training as a fighting game player.
MKP as a player obviously practices like any other pro in the business. he had a stint where he retired and tried out LoL as more than just a hobby, though that doesn't really say anything about him. he has improved his previous aggressive styles and started incorporating a macro-orientated backdrop to most of his strategies. his over-arching strategy has always been to take risks and watch out for certain timings--whether practiced or not--and now he does this with macro as well.
getting to the point now, i think it's a mistake he would make. i'm talking about the one in the game in question. the reasons i have for this are simple: - his basic mechanics are slowed down and simplified. he's not a nimble player at heart. he focuses on timings and small-army management. it forces his positioning to be good and his general prediction and foresight to be correct most of the time. - he often doesn't pay attention to things on the map that he thinks does not concern him, whereas other pros will take a glance to double over efforts any way they can. - it was somewhat of a fresh strategy (albeit, one used by byul before). which is interesting to me because if MKP ever plays that map again in any sort of streamed match, he better fucking scout for it from now till the day he retires again, LOL. - the dude throws games regularly and in awful manner even if he doesn't intend to, and to his credit, he often makes games close and exciting to watch whether you cheering for or against him.
make me wanna rip my eyes out. i am not going to explain this whole thing again like i did on page 24, i'll just say that uneducated bronze league people's posts like this are part of the reason this isn't being taken seriously enough by the people in charge. If half of the community thinks it was fine then there is not as much pressure on kespa etc to possibly ruin their reputation right? Educate yourselves before posting, please.
^ So you have insider information about what kespa and people behind the scenes are doing and if they are "feeling pressured"? Please share!
This thread has been going around in circles for pages and pages now anyway, I doubt posts here really have any power at this point. And (no i haven't counted...but) it seems like the majority of people think he probably did it anyway.
On April 24 2015 05:46 maGicc wrote: Sometimes i really think all these people repeating "no proof" and "witchhunt" are just trolling.
As much as I believe he's guilty, you people (well, you in particular :D) have a way of presenting evidence that leave room to discussion, so I don't think people don't hold the right to contest your point.
For one, people are screaming that the red dot on the minimap is obvious. THERE WAS NO RED DOT, DAMMIT. The dot is yellow without allied color, and MarineKing (on his stream at least) doesn't use allied colors. Broadcaster setup is different from player, so "player cam" is no indication of what he uses. Now I'm not saying a progamer can miss the yellow dot, but it sure as hell doesn't jump to your face when you just glance at the minimap for half a sec, it looks the same as any doodad or resource patch or whatever.
The most suspicious in-game stuff isn't missing the spine, or missing the creep (which is essentially the same color as the fog of war...), these I can believe fairly easily knowing MarineKing's tendencies to miss shit on the minimap. No, the weirdest and most telling thing is his reaction to the opening. No gas, late pool, and he keeps his 2 reapers in defense, AND brings back his SCV instead of looking for the hatch? Now that's the most horrible decision I've seen in a while, and if you know MarineKing, you know that it's actually not his style, he's the one who'll lose reapers trying to do some damage rather than keep them conservatively. And then he just build a 3rd CC against no expand, like, wtf :D. I think his plan was to intentionally get busted with a greedy build, and it's likely that he missed that he inadvertently scouted the spine, which unfortunately for him makes his play all the more suspicious. So I would say he WAS throwing intentionally, but he did miss the spine on the minimap: anybody who's matchfixing and sees that shit on the minimap is at least going to go check up on it (to make it look believable), and then mishandle the defense later on in the game to finally lose (which is actually easy to do considering the amount of Terrans who lose to that).
I'm the rare kind of people who thinks that he did matchfix, BUT that he even botched by missing shit on the minimap how to lose properly and that it made his throw even worse-looking than he intended.
Edit: And don't tell me that it's unlikely. What is unlikely is that he didn't matchfix, but it's very possible that one of his intentional mistakes (to lead to a throw) was actually unintentional.
Those were intentional mistakes. He was on one base. I'm a diamond player and I find it very easy to make some buildings on one base and do NOTHING else. Do you know how often Korean pros spot stuff on the minimap? Very very often. You might say MKP is worse at watching the minimap than other pros, but is it so much worse that he misses the minimap for over a minute...while on one base? He plays Starcraft his whole life and I'm certain that he could spot any enemy dot on the minimap, especially with one minute's time on one base.
Furthermore, if he had reacted to the proxy spine properly, he instantly becomes very unlikely to lose. He would have been attacking the spine with his first reaper very shortly after the spine started. It's inconceivable to me how he could NOT shut down the proxy hatch in that situation. It may not 100% guarantee him a win, but it would make it a very bad throw by him. If, on the other hand, he could pretend to have not seen the spine, he could just go for a super greedy build and get a build order loss. So MKP may have thought he had no choice but to pretend he didn't see it.
TBH, this topic of MKP's motivation for reacting or not reacting to the spine is probably something that's debatable, which again would make it look legit that there's a back and forth debate. But to me, the one base thing is the key.
Its sad that MKP didnt say anything about what happened, at least if had said something like I thought the spine was an overlord in range the whole time, I didnt expect an hatch or something. Sure the map is greyed out but the dark red vs bright red is sometimes hard to tell especially with creep surrounding it, it look even more brighter.
On April 24 2015 11:04 j4vz wrote: Its sad that MKP didnt say anything about what happened, at least if had said something like I thought the spine was an overlord in range the whole time, I didnt expect an hatch or something. Sure the map is greyed out but the dark red vs bright red is sometimes hard to tell especially with creep surrounding it, it look even more brighter.
But he didnt comment on his perspective.
I believe he made some sort of comment on his facebook page in korean
If I read the one you're talking about it was an angry message, he sounded really pissed and he was attacking people pretty badly. Not really indicative of anything though imo, because if he was tilted from a loss he didn't want might react that way too if people were accusing him of shit.
On April 23 2015 22:22 Samx wrote: Is there anything that us as a community can do to pressure the organizations involved that this is unacceptable? I don't think talking about it here have much effect. Kespa don't seem to care. How about blizzard? Will they take a more serious view on this and pressure Kespa?
Well, there's one thing but I'm not sure if we want to go down that road
Which is? Somehow I think Blizzard is more receptive to the community than Kespa. I'm sure with LotV round the corner and the amount of money Blizzard is throwing into the game with the wcs system, they would be more inclined to take actions to prevent further tarnishing of the integrity of the sport.
On April 23 2015 22:22 Samx wrote: Is there anything that us as a community can do to pressure the organizations involved that this is unacceptable? I don't think talking about it here have much effect. Kespa don't seem to care. How about blizzard? Will they take a more serious view on this and pressure Kespa?
Well, there's one thing but I'm not sure if we want to go down that road
Which is? Somehow I think Blizzard is more receptive to the community than Kespa. I'm sure with LotV round the corner and the amount of money Blizzard is throwing into the game with the wcs system, they would be more inclined to take actions to prevent further tarnishing of the integrity of the sport.
Hmm, I'm with Penev on this. Going down THAT path may not be what we want as sc2 fans. What we could do is contact Kespa and threaten to go down that path I guess.... :/
On April 24 2015 07:37 Bannt wrote: ^ So you have insider information about what kespa and people behind the scenes are doing and if they are "feeling pressured"? Please share!
This thread has been going around in circles for pages and pages now anyway, I doubt posts here really have any power at this point. And (no i haven't counted...but) it seems like the majority of people think he probably did it anyway.
His point was that any reasonably skilled player, and most certainly any professional player, can immediately tell this game was thrown and there is very little room for excuse. Instead of filling the thread with things like the person he quoted it would just be great if people could defer their 'beliefs' to the people who probably understand what they are actually seeing a bit more.
Honestly, the only people running around in circles are those who seem either blatantly confused with what they saw and try to rationalize or just cannot fathom that someone of MKs caliber would throw ;-;
100% proof is pretty difficult without a confession or evidence of communications, which kespa would have to find.The problem is we're unlikely to see anything more blatant than this, so if this isn't taken seriously and investigated by a third party we'll just have to watch throwleague until the sponsors/viewers/scene disappears.
On April 24 2015 15:24 Scarecrow wrote: 100% proof is pretty difficult without a confession or evidence of communications, which kespa would have to find.The problem is we're unlikely to see anything more blatant than this, so if this isn't taken seriously and investigated by a third party we'll just have to watch throwleague until the sponsors/viewers/scene disappears.
100% proof is physically impossible. Any evidence could have been doctored or written under duress.
Well it's not impossible with police warrants, but it's impossible without Kespa cooperation. The overwhelming circumstantial evidence says Marineking is at least over 95% likely to be guilty and probably more, and when you add in the other four voids + matchfixing being an open secret in Korea, the chances that at least one of Marineking, San, Soulkey, Innovation or Super matchfixed is at least 99% and probably substantially higher. Whether it can be proven through skypelogs/email/bank accounts/etc depends whether the proper authorities are motivated to investigate or not.
On April 24 2015 16:59 Swoopae wrote: Well it's not impossible with police warrants, but it's impossible without Kespa cooperation.
No, 100% is still impossible. Even if you wire tap a phone and record a player agreeing to throw a match, they might have been going through a singular and entirely unprecedented schizophrenic episode at the time, the symptoms of which are unknown, apparently non-reproducible, and otherwise impossible to verify. It's probably complete and utter bullshit. Probably. That's why judges don't ask for 100% proof, just proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
For us this is semantics, of course, but there are plenty of people here who've betrayed a nil understanding of the legal system.
On April 23 2015 22:22 Samx wrote: Is there anything that us as a community can do to pressure the organizations involved that this is unacceptable? I don't think talking about it here have much effect. Kespa don't seem to care. How about blizzard? Will they take a more serious view on this and pressure Kespa?
Well, there's one thing but I'm not sure if we want to go down that road
Which is? Somehow I think Blizzard is more receptive to the community than Kespa. I'm sure with LotV round the corner and the amount of money Blizzard is throwing into the game with the wcs system, they would be more inclined to take actions to prevent further tarnishing of the integrity of the sport.
What I don't get is that if you're so sure match-fixing is rampant in Korea and it's done for the sake of gamblers who bet on sites like Pinnacle (for marginal profits btw), why are you still gambling in e-sports?
I'm also curious who's the first sucker who's going to pay for inside information for the sake of FPL or Liquibets.