EPTThere has been a lot of shady cases happening for quite some time in small online cups and on proleague especially as of late and I've heard about a couple of players getting offers to throw games and even though I don't want to believe it I think it's best to get everything investigated as fast as possible. There has been from what I've heard some odd line movements in other betting sites other than pinnacle too and in korea online betting is illegal, but there is illegal websites where you can appreantly even bet on game lenght where odds can go very high. Anyways match fixing must have been under investigation, but I hope this gets priorized and done with as fast as possible. On twoplus poker forums there is some discussion about line movements so people interested about this should go check that out also http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/40/sports-betting/esport-betting-1497866/index71.html
Pinnacle voids ByuL vs MarineKing Match - Page 8
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
There has been a lot of shady cases happening for quite some time in small online cups and on proleague especially as of late and I've heard about a couple of players getting offers to throw games and even though I don't want to believe it I think it's best to get everything investigated as fast as possible. There has been from what I've heard some odd line movements in other betting sites other than pinnacle too and in korea online betting is illegal, but there is illegal websites where you can appreantly even bet on game lenght where odds can go very high. Anyways match fixing must have been under investigation, but I hope this gets priorized and done with as fast as possible. On twoplus poker forums there is some discussion about line movements so people interested about this should go check that out also http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/40/sports-betting/esport-betting-1497866/index71.html | ||
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DSK
England1110 Posts
The scouting SCV gets rallied back to MarineKing's base. Which is where he stays for the remainder of the game, not moving out regardless of the fact that Byul has absolutely no map presence. Indeed, only a few seconds after this scout and the SCV is almost home, Byul creates two lings, and doesn't have zergling speed for while after this fact. At the 4:28 mark in game (4:49 in the video) you can see that MarineKing has a worker lead of 2 (18, plus a MULE) and two reapers, and Byul has 16 drones, 2 zerglings. Even if MarineKing didn't suspect anything until the reveal of the spine crawler, surely if you are legitimately trying to win the game you would be trying to ascertain the strategy and build of the opposing player? Why are you hemming yourself in and not frantically trying to find what would appear to be a proxy hatchery of some kind and not be building any units to defend just in case, and in a best case scenario, be able to push after a favourable engagement and at worst, have to pull SCVs? Your team is on the back-foot in a proleague match and they need you to level the scoreline. In all honesty it doesn't make much sense to me from a logical perspective. There are, of course, two sides to every story, and there may be more things going on in MarineKing's life that might be negatively affecting his ability to play in one or several ways. The confusion of Wolf and Moonglade is also quite telling, if I'm honest. Even so, innocent until proven guilty. | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:50 Dumbledore wrote: MK posted on FB: "토쟁이 쓰레기들은 공감 못하겠지... 프로게이머라는 직업에 붙은 프로라는 말... 대다수 어렸을적부터 반대를 무릎쓰고 꿈꿔왔던, 간절히 바랬기에 갖은 노력을 해서 얻어진 타이틀 프로게이머 우린 그것에 자부심을 가져서 정말 반복되고 지치고 힘든 생활을 버틴다 너네같이 꿈없고 물흘러가듯이 살다가 가십거리로, 우연히 불법토토로 알게된 우리들에게 욕할 자격이 없다 주어진 한경기를 위해 자나깨나 미친듯이 생각하고 동료들과 토론하고 준비하고 해야 얻어질수있는 값진 승리 너희같은 하류들은 평생 살아도 모르겠지 진선수들에게 조작거리는게 한심하고 가엾다 너넨 평생 모를테니까 가슴뛰는 그 승리의 성취감을 ㅎㅎ" Seeker pls Google translate doesn't make any sense of it. Seeker pls | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:50 RaiZ wrote: Come on man... If there's one thing we really need to get rid of it, it's pure denial. Don't be it. This whole shit about "innocent until proven guilty" is getting really old. This kind of thinking sure worked out well before. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:50 Dumbledore wrote: MK posted on FB: "토쟁이 쓰레기들은 공감 못하겠지... 프로게이머라는 직업에 붙은 프로라는 말... 대다수 어렸을적부터 반대를 무릎쓰고 꿈꿔왔던, 간절히 바랬기에 갖은 노력을 해서 얻어진 타이틀 프로게이머 우린 그것에 자부심을 가져서 정말 반복되고 지치고 힘든 생활을 버틴다 너네같이 꿈없고 물흘러가듯이 살다가 가십거리로, 우연히 불법토토로 알게된 우리들에게 욕할 자격이 없다 주어진 한경기를 위해 자나깨나 미친듯이 생각하고 동료들과 토론하고 준비하고 해야 얻어질수있는 값진 승리 너희같은 하류들은 평생 살아도 모르겠지 진선수들에게 조작거리는게 한심하고 가엾다 너넨 평생 모를테니까 가슴뛰는 그 승리의 성취감을 ㅎㅎ" Seeker pls Going full google translate to make the thread funnier: + Show Spoiler + Sat-ridden waste of everyone not agree ... Pro phrase attached to the profession of professional gamers ... since I was a child dreamed of wearing knee majority of the opposition, eagerly every effort groups obtained by professional gamers, we really wanted the title Repeat gajyeoseo pride in it being tired and hard life without dreams like you guys in the stands gossip flowing water, as lived by chance we do not have to blame janakkaena for qualified illegal Totoro given hangyeonggi learned frantically thinking that cant get valuable discussions with colleagues and be prepared to win you can inhabit the same downstream are continuing to manipulate the distance you would not know the true players and pathetic pathetic life I'll never know you guys beating heart the fulfillment of those wins ㅎㅎ On March 25 2015 07:52 sOvrn wrote: A lot of people always say that kind of thing and I'd just like to point a few things out. 1) Almost all evidence is circumstantial. Unless you have, like a previous poster said, a video of MKP receiving a briefcase full of money and saying "yes I will fix the match," or something in that line and is obviously incriminating then you are most likely dealing with circumstantial evidence. Just want to point out that most things in life are proven through circumstantial evidence although everyone has this bias against it. 2) Now I'll agree with you that looking at facial expressions and such is kind of a waste of time as those expressions are capable of multiple interpretations. 3) However, the fact that he spotted the spine being built on his minimap and did nothing about it in the game for such a long time is a huge red flag. Again this is circumstantial but it's relevant evidence because it has a tendency to make a fact (match fixing in this case) more or less probable than it would be without the evidence. 4) Now, you could say that MKP just sucks, didn't see the spot on the minimap and therefore no match fixing. But this is problematic because you would have to actually believe that a pro gamer on one base and no units on the map did not spot this on the minimap. It's very improbable, but hey the counter argument still could make sense. And if this was the end of the story then I'd agree with you. 5) But the huge issue is the 8:1 odds in favor of MKP. I can personally accept one weird deviation at a time, but accepting two makes me highly suspicious. Again, this evidence taken alone does not suggest match fixing (maybe a lot of ppl really like MKP despite his less than convincing recent Win to loss record). 6) What really makes this a strong case for match fixing is the combination of these two deviations. Now, there could be another explanation, but the evidence as is is pretty damning. 1) Yes. That is why the mentioned things which you call "evidence" are just indications, not proof. Proof is rock solid and cannot be doubted (reasonably). I think that many people here think that the indications cannot be doubted, and others (such as me) think that they can very reasonably be doubted. 3+4) This is the strongest indication which is really close to a proof, given the quality of high-level pro gaming. Minimap checks happen. I think that there are several possibilities to check if it was intentional or not: checking the point of view (obvious one), check if team colours were turned on, check how MK in general (based on older footage of broadcasted matches) checks the minimap in the first few minutes. That would harden the indication and possibly make it a proof. That would be KeSPA's job, though if someone has the passion to check older VODs for MK's eye movement, we could do that, too. 5) Yes. The other strong point speaking against MK in this case. At this point, Pinnacle could check if sudden bets on Starcraft matches (or matches involving MK) are a kind-of regular and recurring thing. Then, they could compare that data to data from other games. That would harden the indication again. Damn, I hate the conclusion to which my thoughts on your post lead. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:59 Plexa wrote: SEEKER PLS Is their a seeker signal or do I just post a picture of a snitch? | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6169 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:43 pure.Wasted wrote: MarineKing is powerless to defend himself. If he is by some fantastic turn of events completely innocent of any ill intent or wrongdoing, then it will really suck to be him right now. In fact, it will suck to be him right now regardless of what the truth is. Sometimes human beings are just in the wrong place at the wrong time doing the wrong thing. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a thing that works in court, not in real life. Try that with your spouse/significant other/parents, destroy a bunch of their favorite things and then when they come home, tell them a burglar broke in and did it, while you still have bits of destroyed things on your hands. Let's see if they believe that you're innocent until proven guilty. Nobody's saying that MarineKing should be thrown in jail tonight, so there's no hypocrisy here. Wolf has spent years in Korea among Koreans, he has spent years watching MarineKing play, and he thought that MK's appearance before the game was striking and uncharacteristic. We're not going off of some 280p quality GSL stream here, we're going off a high def recording that Wolf saw and found strange. Your first two points are valid, but the thing that sticks with me is that (in not only this incident, but others) the community as a whole seems to focus on "there are questionable things" then takes these things to construct a logical or plausible condemnation, and rarely looks beyond that. As for what works in real life - I'm aware of the difference between the constructs of "preponderance of the evidence" vs. "beyond a reasonable doubt" very strongly. My gainful employment functions wholly on the first, and it's the standard which most civil procedures use. The circumstantial reasoning in this particular event doesn't rise to the level of your particular hypothetical strawman, which includes clear and reasonable physical evidence. Does MK look odd in that recording? Yes. I'll freely admit that he looks especially detached, and more like Naniwa during his last IEM Katowice performance than I would normally expect MK to look. I don't see it as a clear indicator of anything other than MK being off mentally - which could have any number of reasons, ranging from "don't want to play this match or game anymore" to "I'm sick" to "I played like shit and I know it" to apathetic to "what the hell happened, who builds three spines". Some of those things could explain both his poor performance and (if people betting knew of it) the shift in the betting line. But then the shift in the betting line could just be from it being MK vs. Byul - if you're going to place a bet, the safe bet is on Byul. There are logical lines of reasoning in both directions. But the predominant theme from a lot of people in the community, in this situation and others, is to go with the worst one and then echo it repeatedly. | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:02 royalroadweed wrote: Is their a seeker signal or do I just post a picture of a snitch? We need the Batman-Seeker-signal-pic, does anyone have it? | ||
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Yakikorosu
1203 Posts
Edit: I put MKP's post through google translate and even though it largely comes out as gibberish it seems like he strongly denies any wrongdoing and is accusing the accusers of gossiping and underestimating the pride and integrity of progamers. | ||
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Haku
Germany550 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:01 boxerfred wrote: Going full google translate to make the thread funnier: + Show Spoiler + Sat-ridden waste of everyone not agree ... Pro phrase attached to the profession of professional gamers ... since I was a child dreamed of wearing knee majority of the opposition, eagerly every effort groups obtained by professional gamers, we really wanted the title Repeat gajyeoseo pride in it being tired and hard life without dreams like you guys in the stands gossip flowing water, as lived by chance we do not have to blame janakkaena for qualified illegal Totoro given hangyeonggi learned frantically thinking that cant get valuable discussions with colleagues and be prepared to win you can inhabit the same downstream are continuing to manipulate the distance you would not know the true players and pathetic pathetic life I'll never know you guys beating heart the fulfillment of those wins ㅎㅎ 1) Yes. That is why the mentioned things which you call "evidence" are just indications, not proof. Proof is rock solid and cannot be doubted (reasonably). I think that many people here think that the indications cannot be doubted, and others (such as me) think that they can very reasonably be doubted. 3+4) This is the strongest indication which is really close to a proof, given the quality of high-level pro gaming. Minimap checks happen. I think that there are several possibilities to check if it was intentional or not: checking the point of view (obvious one), check if team colours were turned on, check how MK in general (based on older footage of broadcasted matches) checks the minimap in the first few minutes. That would harden the indication and possibly make it a proof. That would be KeSPA's job, though if someone has the passion to check older VODs for MK's eye movement, we could do that, too. 5) Yes. The other strong point speaking against MK in this case. At this point, Pinnacle could check if sudden bets on Starcraft matches (or matches involving MK) are a kind-of regular and recurring thing. Then, they could compare that data to data from other games. That would harden the indication again. Damn, I hate the conclusion to which my thoughts on your post lead. A korean post never interested me more. Love MK. SEEKER PLS | ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie 2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well) 3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Penev
28536 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:02 felisconcolori wrote: Your first two points are valid, but the thing that sticks with me is that (in not only this incident, but others) the community as a whole seems to focus on "there are questionable things" then takes these things to construct a logical or plausible condemnation, and rarely looks beyond that. As for what works in real life - I'm aware of the difference between the constructs of "preponderance of the evidence" vs. "beyond a reasonable doubt" very strongly. My gainful employment functions wholly on the first, and it's the standard which most civil procedures use. The circumstantial reasoning in this particular event doesn't rise to the level of your particular hypothetical strawman, which includes clear and reasonable physical evidence. Does MK look odd in that recording? Yes. I'll freely admit that he looks especially detached, and more like Naniwa during his last IEM Katowice performance than I would normally expect MK to look. I don't see it as a clear indicator of anything other than MK being off mentally - which could have any number of reasons, ranging from "don't want to play this match or game anymore" to "I'm sick" to "I played like shit and I know it" to apathetic to "what the hell happened, who builds three spines". Some of those things could explain both his poor performance and (if people betting knew of it) the shift in the betting line. But then the shift in the betting line could just be from it being MK vs. Byul - if you're going to place a bet, the safe bet is on Byul. There are logical lines of reasoning in both directions. But the predominant theme from a lot of people in the community, in this situation and others, is to go with the worst one and then echo it repeatedly. But you also shouldn't just assume that that's what people are doing here and now. I feel this thread hasn't shown much witch hunting at all. | ||
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Resonance
Canada113 Posts
It's sad because it's true. I swear MarineKing, you'd be more likely to win any game if you didn't go 3CC against 4 gates and 2 base roach all ins. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:08 Rekrul wrote: facts: 1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie 2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well) 3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea Figured #2 would be going on by now given how badly the revenue base has contracted :/ | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Penev
28536 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:10 Caihead wrote: Also what's the highest ratio ever recorded on pinnacle that wasn't voided? I guess we need SwoopAE as well SwoopAE pls | ||
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Darthsanta13
United States564 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:05 Yakikorosu wrote: Not that it proves anything either way but MKP missing the spine would not be the dumbest thing I've seen in a pro game. I clearly remember a GSL game in early 2012 where GuMiho accidentally set out of his marauders attacking his CC. That in itself is not that bad but he left it attacking it for well over a minute (the CC was almost dead when he noticed it), and that's despite the game obviously giving him warnings that YOUR BASE IS UNDER ATTACK. And this was very early in the game when no other action was going on. Edit: I put MKP's post through google translate and even though it largely comes out as gibberish it seems like he strongly denies any wrongdoing and is accusing the accusers of gossiping and underestimating the pride and integrity of progamers. I'm almost certain that you don't get notified if you're attacking your own buildings, so he wouldn't be hearing any warnings. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:08 Rekrul wrote: facts: 1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie 2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well) 3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea If that's true, all I can say is "fuck". Wait, does that mean if teams would actually pay decent money to their players, the whole thing wouldn't happen (or be way smaller than it seemingly is)? | ||
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