EPTPinnacle voids ByuL vs MarineKing Match - Page 7
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royalroadweed
United States8300 Posts
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Bacillus
Finland1847 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:05 Zealously wrote: I would just like to remind you all that Marineking has repeatedly gone CC first (on low ground), 3CC and/or left his supply depots down while playing high-stakes matches against Life. I can't and won't comment on whether or not this could be match fixing, but Marineking is a notoriously stupid player in many cases. I do aknowledge that aggressively jumping into conclusions isn't going to be fair for the involved players and can cause unnecessary damage to the involved regardless of whether they're guilty or not. However, I also do think it's important that we don't downplay how ugly the combination of the played match and the betting pattern looks. That's not going to help anyone either, if anything it just fuels the flames. This isn't any kind of regular Marineking risk taking or such. Making bad decisions is characteristic for him, but failing to react to such an obvious situation for such an extended period of time is on a completely different level. Maybe he tilted completely and had a total mental block in the booth or something, but I don't think anything he has done previously explains what happened there. At this point I hope more than anything that Pinnacle and KeSPA manage to actually find some kind of clear, fair and honest conclusion to this. That's the only way I can see for protecting anyone involved from any further harm, let them be guilty of something or not. | ||
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Penev
28438 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:23 royalroadweed wrote: Kespa should launch an official investigation and really solve whats going on. Better them than the people here and on reddit doing their best impression of the mentalist. Of course there should be an official investigation but that doesn't mean people can't discuss the matter on the forums. If anything the public discussion might increase the pressure on the proper authorities to actually, finally, start such an investigation. | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
How does he (or anyone else) prove a negative? And why, as a community, is it "guilty on the basis of incredibly circumstantial evidence" rather than "innocent unless there is solid proof"? Attempting to gauge mental state, reaction, etc, from facial expressions across cultural differences over a stream strikes me as suspect. Attempting to claim that MK is capable of acting well or concealing emotions is also kind of silly. He might be, but then he never has in the 4 years I've watched him play. | ||
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hai2u
688 Posts
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:33 Penev wrote: Of course there should be an official investigation but that doesn't mean people can't discuss the matter on the forums. If anything the public discussion might increase the pressure on the proper authorities to actually, finally, start such an investigation. To be fair, any investigation might be done very quietly so as not to tip people off. Since this involves gambling this may involve criminal charges too and that would definitely be done quietly as police usually don't talk about what they're doing. IIRC this is what happened with the Savi0r case, everything was dropped at once on the public. | ||
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nimbim
Germany983 Posts
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
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Penev
28438 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:34 felisconcolori wrote: Honest question, and I'll admit beforehand (as you can tell by my signature) that I am a MK fan. How does he (or anyone else) prove a negative? And why, as a community, is it "guilty on the basis of incredibly circumstantial evidence" rather than "innocent unless there is solid proof"? Attempting to gauge mental state, reaction, etc, from facial expressions across cultural differences over a stream strikes me as suspect. Attempting to claim that MK is capable of acting well or concealing emotions is also kind of silly. He might be, but then he never has in the 4 years I've watched him play. You shouldn't assume that if people post something that isn't in MK's favor automatically think that he's guilty. I for one, am mostly shocked because it does looks so very suspicious. I do think that on top of the betting lines and the match itself his composure, body language is strange and uncharacteristic as well. But I can't be sure, I just really hope it isn't true. On March 25 2015 07:35 Wuster wrote: To be fair, any investigation might be done very quietly so as not to tip people off. Since this involves gambling this may involve criminal charges too and that would definitely be done quietly as police usually don't talk about what they're doing. IIRC this is what happened with the Savi0r case, everything was dropped at once on the public. That's true of course. Let's hope this is the case. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
In Germany we say "Freispruch zweiter Klasse" ("Acquittal of low quality"), which basically means that someone couldn't be proven guilty and as such can leave court without receiving any penalty or punishment. But his innocence wasn't proved as well. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
as for the debate, i don't really understand reacting with "let's wait until we have proof" because frankly a bunch of forum nonames like us are never going to have proof of anything unless it comes through official channels. you might as well say there's no point ever discussing any court case or investigation of wrongdoing on the news since none of us are lawyers, judges, jurors etc. saying "well you can't 100% definitively prove this so i'm just ignoring it" is basically saying you don't give a shit whether it's true anyway | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:34 felisconcolori wrote: How does he (or anyone else) prove a negative? MarineKing is powerless to defend himself. If he is by some fantastic turn of events completely innocent of any ill intent or wrongdoing, then it will really suck to be him right now. In fact, it will suck to be him right now regardless of what the truth is. Sometimes human beings are just in the wrong place at the wrong time doing the wrong thing. And why, as a community, is it "guilty on the basis of incredibly circumstantial evidence" rather than "innocent unless there is solid proof"? "Innocent until proven guilty" is a thing that works in court, not in real life. Try that with your spouse/significant other/parents, destroy a bunch of their favorite things and then when they come home, tell them a burglar broke in and did it, while you still have bits of destroyed things on your hands. Let's see if they believe that you're innocent until proven guilty. Nobody's saying that MarineKing should be thrown in jail tonight, so there's no hypocrisy here. Attempting to gauge mental state, reaction, etc, from facial expressions across cultural differences over a stream strikes me as suspect. Wolf has spent years in Korea among Koreans, he has spent years watching MarineKing play, and he thought that MK's appearance before the game was striking and uncharacteristic. We're not going off of some 280p quality GSL stream here, we're going off a high def recording that Wolf saw and found strange. | ||
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CrayonPopChoa
Canada761 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:41 ilikeredheads wrote: Weird betting patterns does not mean match fixing. Individuals with insider information can also manipulate the betting line but it does not mean the players are involved. Stop accusing the players without actual proof. That being said. MKP made several key mistakes that any pro player should NOT make. If I were the coach, i would not field him until whatever the problem is resolved. At the time of the screen cap Byul was a 10 to 1 favorite. So you got back just about $1 for every $10 you bet on Byul. For it to be a worthwhile investment at 10 cents on the dollar, you basically have to risk in the thousands. What kind of inside information would be sufficient for you to bet on Byul? MKP being under the weather? his gf broke up with him the night before? he went color blind? broke his mouse hand? like shit you give me all of those and im still not risking $1000 to win $100... which is why its highly likely that the people still betting when the lines started moving that drastically in favor of Byul were taking no risk at all. "stop accusing the players without actual proof" Come on seriously?? like bro we are not on some crazy witch hunt here, when you look at the line movement and you couple that with the actual game that was played, like either this is the greatest coincidence in the history of esports or the shit was fixed. MKP has a yellow blimp on his mini map just outside his base for 1 minute without reacting to it... like dude that is our proof lol. It might not be sufficient enough for you in this case but your comment of demanding actual proof is ridiculous l think Greeney summed up what constitutes proof for some of you, where you wanna see On March 25 2015 07:19 Greenei wrote: a video where mkp is handed a bunch of stacks of money? | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:43 brickrd wrote: all the people saying its "too obvious" by MKP or the bettors to be real need to read some true "dumb criminal" stories as for the debate, i don't really understand reacting with "let's wait until we have proof" because frankly a bunch of forum nonames like us are never going to have proof of anything unless it comes through official channels. you might as well say there's no point ever discussing any court case or investigation of wrongdoing on the news since none of us are lawyers, judges, jurors etc. saying "well you can't 100% definitively prove this so i'm just ignoring it" is basically saying you don't give a shit whether it's true anyway While I get your point, I think the difference between "Well, that and that points to MK match-fixing" vs. "Look at that, he's clearly matchfixing and deserves a punishment" is really important. It's the difference between "discussing" something as a community, and "pitchforking" for the sake of pitchforking. Pitchforking can destroy careers, discussing can't. Imagine possible consequences for MK if he's not proven guilty, but the community says "lol that guy so obvious". He'll probably still get dropped from his team and will have a really hard time finding sponsors. | ||
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Yakikorosu
1203 Posts
The game itself though... I do think they should release the replay. It's dumb but it's quite possible MKP just didn't see the spine on the minimap. It happens. As for the creep in his base, keep in mind the structures closest to the creep were still building, so they have very little vision. It would be up to the SCVs building them to see them, and that depends on what side of the building they're on. From my quick look it seems like he reacted pretty quick from the time the building SCVs moved down towards the creep and it was well within view. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
edit - Statement made under the memory (is it true?) that Pinnacle also voided one of Prime's games entirely ahead of, which they went on to 0-3 in. As well as Yoda games. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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Dumbledore
Sweden725 Posts
"토쟁이 쓰레기들은 공감 못하겠지... 프로게이머라는 직업에 붙은 프로라는 말... 대다수 어렸을적부터 반대를 무릎쓰고 꿈꿔왔던, 간절히 바랬기에 갖은 노력을 해서 얻어진 타이틀 프로게이머 우린 그것에 자부심을 가져서 정말 반복되고 지치고 힘든 생활을 버틴다 너네같이 꿈없고 물흘러가듯이 살다가 가십거리로, 우연히 불법토토로 알게된 우리들에게 욕할 자격이 없다 주어진 한경기를 위해 자나깨나 미친듯이 생각하고 동료들과 토론하고 준비하고 해야 얻어질수있는 값진 승리 너희같은 하류들은 평생 살아도 모르겠지 진선수들에게 조작거리는게 한심하고 가엾다 너넨 평생 모를테니까 가슴뛰는 그 승리의 성취감을 ㅎㅎ" Seeker pls | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:48 boxerfred wrote: While I get your point, I think the difference between "Well, that and that points to MK match-fixing" vs. "Look at that, he's clearly matchfixing and deserves a punishment" is really important. It's the difference between "discussing" something as a community, and "pitchforking" for the sake of pitchforking. Pitchforking can destroy careers, discussing can't. Imagine possible consequences for MK if he's not proven guilty, but the community says "lol that guy so obvious". He'll probably still get dropped from his team and will have a really hard time finding sponsors. Who has called for MKP to be punished? Looks to me like everybody's keeping a level head. | ||
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sOvrn
United States678 Posts
On March 25 2015 07:34 felisconcolori wrote: How does he (or anyone else) prove a negative? And why, as a community, is it "guilty on the basis of incredibly circumstantial evidence" rather than "innocent unless there is solid proof"? A lot of people always say that kind of thing and I'd just like to point a few things out. 1) Almost all evidence is circumstantial. Unless you have, like a previous poster said, a video of MKP receiving a briefcase full of money and saying "yes I will fix the match," or something in that line and is obviously incriminating then you are most likely dealing with circumstantial evidence. Just want to point out that most things in life are proven through circumstantial evidence although everyone has this bias against it. 2) Now I'll agree with you that looking at facial expressions and such is kind of a waste of time as those expressions are capable of multiple interpretations. 3) However, the fact that he spotted the spine being built on his minimap and did nothing about it in the game for such a long time is a huge red flag. Again this is circumstantial but it's relevant evidence because it has a tendency to make a fact (match fixing in this case) more or less probable than it would be without the evidence. 4) Now, you could say that MKP just sucks, didn't see the spot on the minimap and therefore no match fixing. But this is problematic because you would have to actually believe that a pro gamer on one base and no units on the map did not spot this on the minimap. It's very improbable, but hey the counter argument still could make sense. And if this was the end of the story then I'd agree with you. 5) But the huge issue is the 8:1 odds in favor of MKP. I can personally accept one weird deviation at a time, but accepting two makes me highly suspicious. Again, this evidence taken alone does not suggest match fixing (maybe a lot of ppl really like MKP despite his less than convincing recent Win to loss record). 6) What really makes this a strong case for match fixing is the combination of these two deviations. Now, there could be another explanation, but the evidence as is is pretty damning. | ||
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