EPTPinnacle voids ByuL vs MarineKing Match - Page 5
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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Penev
28536 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:05 Zealously wrote: I would just like to remind you all that Marineking has repeatedly gone CC first (on low ground), 3CC and/or left his supply depots down while playing high-stakes matches against Life. I can't and won't comment on whether or not this could be match fixing, but Marineking is a notoriously stupid player in many cases. Not walling off is a MarineKing decision, throwing down a 3rd CC vs a scouted cheese is a MarineKing decision. Pretending you didn't see a fucking base next to your base is not a MarineKing decision. | ||
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Serimek
France2274 Posts
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
1. MK is guilty. He saw the spine on the minimap. Since he wants to lose (assuming Byul is not involved), he's kinda glad that Byul gives him an easy way to throw by simply ignoring the fact that he saw that. Easiest proof for that would be the first person view of the replay, MKP might've done an instinctive check. I don't see any other way to legitimately prove that MK saw the spine. You guys can bring up more snippets, but as long as there is no rock solid proof, it's in no way (neither morally nor legally) allowed to judge and potentially ruin MK's career. In dubio pro reo. 2. MK is innocent. Given that he SCV scouted, he knew that Byul would allin him. His SCV checked the gold bases. This is the first point where it gets interesting: if MK uses the minimap to confirm that no gold base has been taken, he should see the spine. If he checks by camera (assuming he grouped the scout scv which is likely), he wouldn't check the minimap. Then, remember: many pros go in early game for apm spams. Spamming control groups, spamming camera positions is a normal thing. While doing so, one might actually not check the minimap. The third thing to check would be which colours MK used. Did he use the "friendly green, hostile red"-thing, or did he have original colours turned on? Yellow is much harder to see for the eye, while red is a signal colour. Assuming MK really missed the spine building, I think that he thought a bust was coming. He was clearly not expecting roaches (he wouldn't have rushed hellions else) but a baneling bust, and relied on his fast hellions to hold. The fact that Byul wouldn't have been able to kill him without queens and spines supports that thought. I even think he would've held a one base bust with 3cc and would've been miles ahead thereafter. tl;dr don't judge him without any proof, in dubio pro reo. two possibilities: a) guilty, b) he mistakenly took a proxy hatch he did not see for a one base baneling bust. ____ This guy should shut up. Accusations are one thing, not having proof is another thing. He's completely based on indications.  | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
Because : -It is based on Pinnacle's appreciation of the situation, and the quality of their services. For all we know, had they decided not to void bets because someone in charge would have gone "fuck it, I ain't going to void this one", this thread wouldn't even exist in the first place. Maybe their algorithm is flawed as fuck. Maybe they recently changed their treshold for what they consider "suspicious" without us knowing, which means that other games went under the radar undetected. Anything can be possible, and something that is based on a betting site's own appreciation of the situation is NOT evidence alone, not about the game at least. -It shows nothing else than the fact that bets were strange. It doesn't concern the game in itself. Thus it is evidence about the bets, but not about the game. -It isn't nowhere near enough to accuse someone of something as important as match-fixing. Accusing MK of match fixing solely based on betting lines is like accusing someone of murder because he entered a house where a dead body was found. It. just. doesn't. compute. | ||
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Popkiller
3415 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:10 boxerfred wrote: So, we have two scenarios, aye? 1. MK is guilty. He saw the spine on the minimap. Since he wants to lose (assuming Byul is not involved), he's kinda glad that Byul gives him an easy way to throw by simply ignoring the fact that he saw that. Easiest proof for that would be the first person view of the replay, MKP might've done an instinctive check. I don't see any other way to legitimately prove that MK saw the spine. You guys can bring up more snippets, but as long as there is no rock solid proof, it's in no way (neither morally nor legally) allowed to judge and potentially ruin MK's career. In dubio pro reo. 2. MK is innocent. Given that he SCV scouted, he knew that Byul would allin him. His SCV checked the gold bases. This is the first point where it gets interesting: if MK uses the minimap to confirm that no gold base has been taken, he should see the spine. If he checks by camera (assuming he grouped the scout scv which is likely), he wouldn't check the minimap. Then, remember: many pros go in early game for apm spams. Spamming control groups, spamming camera positions is a normal thing. While doing so, one might actually not check the minimap. The third thing to check would be which colours MK used. Did he use the "friendly green, hostile red"-thing, or did he have original colours turned on? Yellow is much harder to see for the eye, while red is a signal colour. Assuming MK really missed the spine building, I think that he thought a bust was coming. He was clearly not expecting roaches (he wouldn't have rushed hellions else) but a baneling bust, and relied on his fast hellions to hold. The fact that Byul wouldn't have been able to kill him without queens and spines supports that thought. I even think he would've held a one base bust with 3cc and would've been miles ahead thereafter. tl;dr don't judge him without any proof, in dubio pro reo. two possibilities: a) guilty, b) he mistakenly took a proxy hatch he did not see for a one base baneling bust. ____ https://twitter.com/SwoopAE/status/580370332600532992 This guy should shut up. Accusations are one thing, not having proof is another thing. Fun fact: in that twitter screenshot, the odds are in favor of ST-Yoe vs. SKT1. Lol. I think from his perspective, and apparently to anyone in the betting world, this is as close to proof as it gets. It seems like the only reason this thing hasn't been blown open is that no one seems to be investigating it. and I think you're reading the odds wrong. | ||
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CrayonPopChoa
Canada761 Posts
It was so subtle yet the korean commentators picked up on it, insisting that Luxuy had to have seen the SCV I remember in an interview later on they said that they knew he had seen it but wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. And this was just literally a second that the Ovie had vision of the SCV but thats how sharp these progamers are.... and yet here we are to believe MKP dosent see a red dot on his screen for a minute LOL | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
I'd really like an official statement from KeSPA after 3(!) very suspicious line movements (and 2 semi suspicious ones?). On March 25 2015 05:14 SixStrings wrote: I just wonder how many of these we've missed so far. How long has this been going on? Indeed. These obvious ones seem almost too silly to be true but maybe they're just the ones that went wrong | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:10 boxerfred wrote: tl;dr don't judge him without any proof, in dubio pro reo. two possibilities: a) guilty, b) he mistakenly took a proxy hatch he did not see for a one base baneling bust. This is the most important thing. As long as there are possibilities of him not being guilty, then he's NOT guilty. (and Guilty plays better than him duh) | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:13 Popkiller wrote: I think from his perspective, and apparently to anyone in the betting world, this is as close to proof as it gets. It seems like the only reason this thing hasn't been blown open is that no one seems to be investigating it. and I think you're reading the odds wrong. Ouch, I did. Now I got it. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:14 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Are we really supposed to believe MKP didnt see that spine for a minute? Like he is a pro they basically have one eye glued to the mini map at all times. Remember this one from BW??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya_EqIZ8RRY It was so subtle yet the korean commentators picked up on it, insisting that Luxuy had to have seen the SCV I remember in an interview later on they said that they knew he had seen it but wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. And this was just literally a second that the Ovie had vision of the SCV but thats how sharp these progamers are.... and yet here we are to believe MKP dosent see a red dot on his screen for a minute LOL Huge difference to BW is that in SC2, the minimap is fully shown, not blacked out. Try playing Find Waldo, then try playing Find Waldo in an area where the majority is black. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:10 boxerfred wrote: So, we have two scenarios, aye? 1. MK is guilty. He saw the spine on the minimap. Since he wants to lose (assuming Byul is not involved), he's kinda glad that Byul gives him an easy way to throw by simply ignoring the fact that he saw that. Easiest proof for that would be the first person view of the replay, MKP might've done an instinctive check. I don't see any other way to legitimately prove that MK saw the spine. You guys can bring up more snippets, but as long as there is no rock solid proof, it's in no way (neither morally nor legally) allowed to judge and potentially ruin MK's career. In dubio pro reo. 2. MK is innocent. Given that he SCV scouted, he knew that Byul would allin him. His SCV checked the gold bases. This is the first point where it gets interesting: if MK uses the minimap to confirm that no gold base has been taken, he should see the spine. If he checks by camera (assuming he grouped the scout scv which is likely), he wouldn't check the minimap. Then, remember: many pros go in early game for apm spams. Spamming control groups, spamming camera positions is a normal thing. While doing so, one might actually not check the minimap. The third thing to check would be which colours MK used. Did he use the "friendly green, hostile red"-thing, or did he have original colours turned on? Yellow is much harder to see for the eye, while red is a signal colour. Assuming MK really missed the spine building, I think that he thought a bust was coming. He was clearly not expecting roaches (he wouldn't have rushed hellions else) but a baneling bust, and relied on his fast hellions to hold. The fact that Byul wouldn't have been able to kill him without queens and spines supports that thought. I even think he would've held a one base bust with 3cc and would've been miles ahead thereafter. tl;dr don't judge him without any proof, in dubio pro reo. two possibilities: a) guilty, b) he mistakenly took a proxy hatch he did not see for a one base baneling bust. ____ https://twitter.com/SwoopAE/status/580370332600532992 This guy should shut up. Accusations are one thing, not having proof is another thing. Fun fact: in that twitter screenshot, the odds are in favor of ST-Yoe vs. SKT1. Lol. Come on dude, he scouted the timing of the gas and the spawning pool, the only explanations for them to be timed that way is: A. there is a hatch somewhere on the map, yet not on the gold or the natural as his scv scouts those positions. This thought process leads to proxy hatch agression or at the very least suspicion to scout with your reapers (remember the pool is not even done as his reaper finishes, he can safely scout the map without threat of a runby or speedlings). B. Byul is randomly holding onto 300 minerals as a mindgame. Saving up 300 minerals then going gas pool one base baneling bust is ridiculous. | ||
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:10 boxerfred wrote: MK is innocent. Given that he SCV scouted, he knew that Byul would allin him. His SCV checked the gold bases. That's the thing. After the SCV scouted no hatch and it is sended back home. He scouted one gold base because it was in the pathway of the SCV. The other gold wasn't scouted, neither his potential third bases. And as Moonglade said, given the pool timing was obvious that there was a proxy hatch somewhere. | ||
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CrayonPopChoa
Canada761 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:10 boxerfred wrote: So, we have two scenarios, aye? 1. MK is guilty. He saw the spine on the minimap. Since he wants to lose (assuming Byul is not involved), he's kinda glad that Byul gives him an easy way to throw by simply ignoring the fact that he saw that. Easiest proof for that would be the first person view of the replay, MKP might've done an instinctive check. I don't see any other way to legitimately prove that MK saw the spine. You guys can bring up more snippets, but as long as there is no rock solid proof, it's in no way (neither morally nor legally) allowed to judge and potentially ruin MK's career. In dubio pro reo. 2. MK is innocent. Given that he SCV scouted, he knew that Byul would allin him. His SCV checked the gold bases. This is the first point where it gets interesting: if MK uses the minimap to confirm that no gold base has been taken, he should see the spine. If he checks by camera (assuming he grouped the scout scv which is likely), he wouldn't check the minimap. Then, remember: many pros go in early game for apm spams. Spamming control groups, spamming camera positions is a normal thing. While doing so, one might actually not check the minimap. The third thing to check would be which colours MK used. Did he use the "friendly green, hostile red"-thing, or did he have original colours turned on? Yellow is much harder to see for the eye, while red is a signal colour. Assuming MK really missed the spine building, I think that he thought a bust was coming. He was clearly not expecting roaches (he wouldn't have rushed hellions else) but a baneling bust, and relied on his fast hellions to hold. The fact that Byul wouldn't have been able to kill him without queens and spines supports that thought. I even think he would've held a one base bust with 3cc and would've been miles ahead thereafter. tl;dr don't judge him without any proof, in dubio pro reo. two possibilities: a) guilty, b) he mistakenly took a proxy hatch he did not see for a one base baneling bust. ____ https://twitter.com/SwoopAE/status/580370332600532992 This guy should shut up. Accusations are one thing, not having proof is another thing. He's completely based on indications. LOL you tell him to shut up and you cant even read odds properly.. Fun fact, there is no one player in pro league that should be 8 to 1 favorite over another player in pro league.... I think most gamblers would even take a foreign terran at 8 to 1 in a BO1 against anyone in prologue . | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On March 25 2015 06:19 Saechiis wrote: Come on dude, he scouted the timing of the gas and the spawning pool, the only explanations for them to be timed that way is: A. there is a hatch somewhere on the map, yet not on the gold or the natural as his scv scouts those positions. This thought process leads to proxy hatch agression or at the very least suspicion to scout with your reapers (remember the pool is not even done as his reaper finishes, he can safely scout the map without threat of a runby or speedlings). B. Byul is randomly holding onto 300 minerals as a mindgame. I'm not saying he's innocent. I'm saying we have no proof for any scenario, so please don't light the fires and don't pull out the pitchforks yet. I do think though that a strong point for MK guessing the baneling allin is that he keeps his reapers at home, knowing that speed will finish any second. That would imply that he thinks he has enough time to get hellions out, the reasoning behind his third cc. LOL you tell him to shut up and you cant even read odds properly.. Fun fact, there is no one player in pro league that should be 8 to 1 favorite over another player in pro league.... I think most gamblers would even take a foreign terran at 8 to 1 in a BO1 against anyone in prologue . Yeah, because I can actually admit that I am wrong, while this guy just goes full pitchfork by tweeting a picture instead of giving a full reasoning. He seemingly is not even trying to gather proof, he has his opinion, says "this is the truth now act" and that's it. Fun fact, there is no one player in pro league that should be 8 to 1 favorite over another player in pro league. I would take a one to eight quote if Aphrodite was facing Life. | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On March 25 2015 05:01 Andre wrote: Just being devil's advocate here, but anyone remember that match in BW when Jaedong had like 100units stuck on his ramp? He could see it on the minimap, I assume he moved his camera over it multiple times as it was near his expo. Yet he still had like 100 units stuck for 1-3 minutes or something. Biggest newbie mistake ever. It happens to pros too. it's been going on for more than 5 minutes at this point, look at 24:30 to see it at its worst | ||
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Negius
Netherlands290 Posts
I've been a MK fan for a very long time now and I have to say that the combination of body language and gameplay was very off today. But I don't like how everyone is jumping to conclusions. He might've been matchfixing, but MK is really, really bad when he's on tilt and emotional. We don't know if something happened (maybe a relative passed away or something, who knows) which wasn't known by his team or something. I consider (and I hate that) matchfixing a genuine possibility, but I also think it's a genuine possibility he was just emotional and on tilt. Please don't ruin his career if the latter is the case... | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On March 25 2015 05:22 Plexa wrote: I will note that a game like this essentially ruined Sangho's career in BW (aka Killer, aka Swagger) despite being innocent. I hope a proper investigation takes place and is able to clear things up. While that Sangho game certainly had some questionable decision making it is by no means comparable to the MKP vs Buyl game. Sangho failed to capitalize on his (significant) mid-game advantage. MKP failed to see a scouted enemy building right next to his base for over a whole real-time minute, while there was nothing at all going on that could have diverted his attention. Progamers normally notice a drop as soon as it gets in their vision, they would often see a flying dropship even if it were in their vision for a split second. Obviously, there are still many events that are not instantly noticed, especially if there is a ton of stuff going on. But MKP didn't react to the proxy building for 74 real-time seconds! What could possibly be a reasonable explanation for that? Maybe he thought there was an overlord at the edge of the FOW... Maybe his insulin levels dropped to nearly zero and caused him to become almost blind... Or maybe he threw the game... | ||
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