On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes.
A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on.
Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem.
What's needed is awareness that betting, by and large, is a horrible thing to do even mathematically. It's addictive, to a level that makes the addiction in this story fairly tame.
Gambling, as an industry, is built on the idea that a very few people will win, and a lot of people will lose. You're better off betting on the stock market, because while it does not have "resume from replay" it also is a hell of a lot better regulated.
Anyway, I'm sorry that people don't appreciate that you take risks and lose money betting on something the majority of the world views as light entertainment at best. I'm sorry people don't realize the amount of effort you put into doing so in a rational manner, taking into account mathematical modeling. I'm not sorry that you don't see that betting is the root cause of the problem you are most concerned about dealing with.
This extends beyond the individuals betting on the match. Betting is illegal in Korea and match fixing is even worse. The last time we saw extensive match fixing some serious shit went down, and arguably was the killing blow to BW (as sponsors largely pulled out). If the scene is as rotten as is suggested by people on the forum, then the future of SC2 in Korea is in serious jeopardy.
This is why I point out that the root of the problem is not match-fixing. It's betting. Although I will concede that stopping people from betting on anything (to include any esport) is probably too much to hope for.
Your logic doesn't hold up because people can bet on these games from places where betting is legal, and purchase the knowledge of fixed matches and whatnot. So given that betting is legal somewhere, the core problem here is fundamentally matchfixing. The problem, however, is exacerbated in a country where betting is illegal and that illegal betting goes on.
I don't understand the "logic" of your comment either. He's saying that betting is the problem, he probably means whether legal or not. It's not because something is legal that you can't find it problematic...
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
And if people can really make a living out of betting on SC2 matches, like StarGalaxy implies, while proplayers of this game barely do, it's no wonder that machfixing is rampant.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
On April 21 2015 10:02 ZenithM wrote: And if people can really make a living out of betting on SC2 matches, like StarGalaxy implies, while proplayers of this game barely do, it's no wonder that machfixing is rampant.
Uuh poor players, they only make hundreds of thousands of dollars. http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii Should we collect donations for them? I bet MC doesn't even have enough money to feed himself. /irony off You are clearly mixing up poeple who earn money by doing analysis and people who earn money by fixing games. Do you see the difference? I really hope you do.
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
Thx for posting it. That was before my time here. I can see the similarities.
Regardless of how true the statement might be, one point that people are missing is the significance of MVP making a statement with a definite conclusion. MVP is an organization with teams in different esports. SC2 is just one of their teams, and likely their smallest and least profitable. By defending MarineKing and claiming that their investigation yielded no results, they are putting the organization's reputation on the line. Not just in SC2 but across different esports. If they did have any reason to doubt MarineKing or any other player, it makes more sense for them to either use that player as a scapegoat or avoid making definitive statements defending or condemning him. Now they've thrown the entire organization on the side of "he did not matchfix" and it has larger implications than just Starcraft.
One the one hand, the game is still fishy. It is a commonly accepted fact that illegal betting and matchfixing is common in Korea. On the other hand, I find this a curious statement to make. It makes more sense for them to give a vaguer conclusion that does not put them for or against MarineKing. This statement could have grave implications in the future that could harm them financially.
This is no reason to believe that MarineKing did not do it. This is also not a reason to believe that MVP's investigation was bogus. The statement does not really prove anything, but it does mean that MVP has put its reputation as an organization across multiple games on the line. I'd like to believe that they are not dumb enough to do this without understanding all the consequences of their actions, whatever the truth may be.
This makes me very sad, as i have been watching sc2 since the beggining and i was one of those people, screaming like crazy over skype with a friend at 6am when the MKP vs Kyrix games happened.
However, the evidence we have (vod, bettings behaviour) makes it very evident for me. We wont have MK's or MVP's confirmation, ever. But this is as evident as we can get. His game behaviour was completely uncharasteristic of a player his level, add to that the other betting scandals, lack of replay...
edit: i'd also like to add that it could very well be an unprobable coincidence of actions/events. It will all be clear when the replay is released. (and yes i know that is kespa's responsability/job)
On April 21 2015 10:02 ZenithM wrote: And if people can really make a living out of betting on SC2 matches, like StarGalaxy implies, while proplayers of this game barely do, it's no wonder that machfixing is rampant.
Uuh poor players, they only make hundreds of thousands of dollars. http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii Should we collect donations for them? I bet MC doesn't even have enough money to feed himself.
Because MC is totally representative of an average pro-player's earnings -.-
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
also about his body language first of all I don't see it second of all this is a pro people expect things of yet sucks and has sucked for a while. all the reason needed for bad body language particularly to play such a bad game he mush of known his form was off yet again.. frankly it wouldn't surprise me to find that a lot of people with no particular regard for marineking (like me) expected him to lose with no inside info and were willing to bet a lot of money on it.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
I'd write that off as human error. Stork vs. Bisu in some finals or another had a match where Stork forgot to research Singularity Charge, a critical tech for PvP in the old BW days.
On April 21 2015 10:07 fruity. wrote: So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
To be fair, from FP view of MKP when I was watching the match that spot on the minimap looked a lot like an overlord. I'm pretty sure he did see it and thought it was an ovie which makes sense to have in that position.
On April 21 2015 10:13 lichter wrote: Well at least it is something.
Regardless of how true the statement might be, one point that people are missing is the significance of MVP making a statement with a definite conclusion. MVP is an organization with teams in different esports. SC2 is just one of their teams, and likely their smallest and least profitable. By defending MarineKing and claiming that their investigation yielded no results, they are putting the organization's reputation on the line. Not just in SC2 but across different esports. If they did have any reason to doubt MarineKing or any other player, it makes more sense for them to either use that player as a scapegoat or avoid making definitive statements defending or condemning him. Now they've thrown the entire organization on the side of "he did not matchfix" and it has larger implications than just Starcraft.
One the one hand, the game is still fishy. It is a commonly accepted fact that illegal betting and matchfixing is common in Korea. On the other hand, I find this a curious statement to make. It makes more sense for them to give a vaguer conclusion that does not put them for or against MarineKing. This statement could have grave implications in the future that could harm them financially.
This is no reason to believe that MarineKing did not do it. This is also not a reason to believe that MVP's investigation was bogus. The statement does not really prove anything, but it does mean that MVP has put its reputation as an organization across multiple games on the line. I'd like to believe that they are not dumb enough to do this without understanding all the consequences of their actions, whatever the truth may be.
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
To me it seems more like MVP is siding with MKP here because it's their player and that's what they need to do. If it later turns out that MKP was indeed matchfixing I doubt the consequences would be as severe as you describe. They would just publish a PR-response. It's not that that result would undermine their "investigation". Even if MKP was matchfixing they can hardly held accountable for not succesfully proving it with their investigation. It's not like the team MVP is voching for him. They say the investigations results are,... we believe in him,... nothing more.
@magicallypuzzled You can find the answer to your question in this and in other threads. I am not wasting my time explaining it on every page.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base?
It can't be an overlord since an overlord doesn't stay on the minimap as the Spine does.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base?
It can't be an overlord since an overlord doesn't stay on the minimap as the Spine does.
he probably didn't realize he didn't still have vision of it or didn't notice it at all.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
On April 21 2015 10:13 lichter wrote: Well at least it is something.
Regardless of how true the statement might be, one point that people are missing is the significance of MVP making a statement with a definite conclusion. MVP is an organization with teams in different esports. SC2 is just one of their teams, and likely their smallest and least profitable. By defending MarineKing and claiming that their investigation yielded no results, they are putting the organization's reputation on the line. Not just in SC2 but across different esports. If they did have any reason to doubt MarineKing or any other player, it makes more sense for them to either use that player as a scapegoat or avoid making definitive statements defending or condemning him. Now they've thrown the entire organization on the side of "he did not matchfix" and it has larger implications than just Starcraft.
One the one hand, the game is still fishy. It is a commonly accepted fact that illegal betting and matchfixing is common in Korea. On the other hand, I find this a curious statement to make. It makes more sense for them to give a vaguer conclusion that does not put them for or against MarineKing. This statement could have grave implications in the future that could harm them financially.
This is no reason to believe that MarineKing did not do it. This is also not a reason to believe that MVP's investigation was bogus. The statement does not really prove anything, but it does mean that MVP has put its reputation as an organization across multiple games on the line. I'd like to believe that they are not dumb enough to do this without understanding all the consequences of their actions, whatever the truth may be.
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
To me it seems more like MVP is siding with MKP here because it's their player and that's what they need to do. If it later turns out that MKP was indeed matchfixing I doubt the consequences would be as severe as you describe. They would just publish a PR-response. It's not that that result would undermine their "investigation". Even if MKP was matchfixing they can hardly held accountable for not succesfully proving it with their investigation. It's not like the team MVP is voching for him. They say the investigations results are,... we believe in him,... nothing more.
There is a big difference between "I have decided to trust him" and "But at the very end, all evidence gave us the same answer – Lee was not matchfixing." One does not absolve him of blame while the other does. This isn't the same as a manager siding with a player after a bout of poor behavior or a team supporting a player after a misdemeanor. This is a team telling the world that their player is definitely innocent (of doing something illegal, not just some in-game foul or mistake) and that they're investigation yielded no proof otherwise.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote: It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
This. I'm so sick of the ridiculous twisted mentalities that a lot of people in the "community" here on TL and elsewhere seem to have.
On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote: Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission.
Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tears tins on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
When all the evidence points to MKP being guilty here, you better come up with something better than "he said he didn't do it" before you conclude that he definitely didn't matchfix.
He played like utter SHIT yes, but that is not in any way 'evidence'.
Edit - This 'trial by pitchforks' shit needs to stop. Everyone being judge, jury and executioner based on their own opinions rather than hard evidence is bullshit.
EPT
