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vesicular
United States1310 Posts
The SK one I do not get. He wins and he goes to Code S. SK has the talent to go far in tourney's, it's not like he's a scrub or fallen off. It's an individual tourney where he wins money the better he does. The match looked perfectly normal. Seriously, what incentive is there for SK to throw a game? Only thing I can think of is he got too used to his WJS/SKT salary and was naive enough to think he could throw a game and still beat Creator. Just seems foolish. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On April 16 2015 13:54 vesicular wrote: The MKP one I get. It's an esf team, it's SPL, there's no money to win by winning the match legit, and it looked rather obvious on film. The SK one I do not get. He wins and he goes to Code S. SK has the talent to go far in tourney's, it's not like he's a scrub or fallen off. It's an individual tourney where he wins money the better he does. The match looked perfectly normal. Seriously, what incentive is there for SK to throw a game? Only thing I can think of is he got too used to his WJS/SKT salary and was naive enough to think he could throw a game and still beat Creator. Just seems foolish. i don't really have much of a horse in this debate (strongly suspicious and lean toward the guilty side, but i admit i don't know and anything is possible), but IMO as soon as you start building the doubt of "why would THIS player do it?/what motive does he have?" and looking at his success or recent form you're basically already opening the door for matchfixing to happen and be swept under the rug. facts: 1) criminals are no smarter than the average person 2) successful people aren't always satisfied with their success/earnings just because it seems like a lot to the rest of us 3) people at the highest level of play in countless different sports, leagues, competitions etc. have been caught cheating time and time again unless you're a personal friend of one of the accused players and have a genuine insight into who they are or why they do what they do, brainstorming about how likely they are to do something shady is really just a way to push toward an innocent verdict because it's what you want to be true. "he doesn't seem like the type" has never held up in reality | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On April 16 2015 14:10 brickrd wrote: i don't really have much of a horse in this debate (strongly suspicious and lean toward the guilty side, but i admit i don't know and anything is possible), but IMO as soon as you start building the doubt of "why would THIS player do it?/what motive does he have?" and looking at his success or recent form you're basically already opening the door for matchfixing to happen and be swept under the rug. facts: 1) criminals are no smarter than the average person 2) successful people aren't always satisfied with their success/earnings just because it seems like a lot to the rest of us 3) people at the highest level of play in countless different sports, leagues, competitions etc. have been caught cheating time and time again unless you're a personal friend of one of the accused players and have a genuine insight into who they are or why they do what they do, brainstorming about how likely they are to do something shady is really just a way to push toward an innocent verdict because it's what you want to be true. "he doesn't seem like the type" has never held up in reality Pretty much, all the people who got caught in BW match fixing scandal were up and coming stars or people who already had respectable records. | ||
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Popkiller
3415 Posts
even with pinnacle voiding bets, no one's getting investigated or punished. not yet, at least. that's why I can't rule out that even Innovation would throw a map, despite the fact that he has a decent amount of winnings and probably a good salary, if the betting lines say that someone knew he would lose the first map vs Super. | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
 i hope this isnt true, if he needed the money why didnt he try switch to BW the afreeca streams seem to be okay for living off (and soulkey was rising to be such an awesome player near the end of kespa-bw) | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
On April 15 2015 22:10 Gwavajuice wrote: Fact 2 : Pinacle runs a business and wants esport betting to become a good banch of activity. The last thing they want is a scandal. What they want is to tell their customer : 'it is safe, it is legit, we're protecting you' that's not a fact. that is your opinion. Bigger business have done worst things in the past. so the good intentions of pinacle can't be labeled like a "fact" | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On April 16 2015 14:40 xuanzue wrote: that's not a fact. that is your opinion. Bigger business have done worst things in the past. so the good intentions of pinacle can't be labeled like a "fact" It's not good intentions, though, it's protecting their brand. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On April 16 2015 11:04 Yakikorosu wrote: I just watched this series, and while I agreed MK/ByuL was very suspicious, here I just don't see it. I didn't see any indication that Soulkey threw game 1. He lost but frankly he looked terrible the entire series (he only won off a 2-base all-in) so if anything the fact that he was heavily favored on Pinnacle to win the series suggests to me there's nothing untoward here. I'm sure there are "subtle" things players can do to ensure they lose but then why didn't he play better for the remaining series where there was no strange betting? Has someone done the reverse of this analysis: see how many bizarre betting lines there are that DON'T end up going into the bizarre bettor's favor? I don't doubt there's a real issue with bettors influencing matches but it takes more than a surprising line to convince me that this PARTICULAR game was fixed. But that's the point though. Matchfixing only works when it isn't obvious. If Marineking hadn't (I assume) accidently discovered the spine and then did the same thing everyone would have gone "Oh it was just MK being MK" and the whole thing would've been an interesting side note ala the San-Dark match. Pro players don't need to make huge adjustments to change the outcome, a second or two late on starting upgrades, going in a split second BEFORE the timing hits, A-Moving your best units in the middle of microing, it looks on the surface normal and an error but in reality it's something far more sinister. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On April 16 2015 13:54 vesicular wrote: The MKP one I get. It's an esf team, it's SPL, there's no money to win by winning the match legit, and it looked rather obvious on film. The SK one I do not get. He wins and he goes to Code S. SK has the talent to go far in tourney's, it's not like he's a scrub or fallen off. It's an individual tourney where he wins money the better he does. The match looked perfectly normal. Seriously, what incentive is there for SK to throw a game? Only thing I can think of is he got too used to his WJS/SKT salary and was naive enough to think he could throw a game and still beat Creator. Just seems foolish. Beating Creator and making Code S vs beating Creator and making Code S while also getting some extra money. This isn't the first time a player has had abnormal odds for one map only, and I'm pretty sure the bets have always been against the favoured player and they always did end up losing. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On April 16 2015 14:40 xuanzue wrote: that's not a fact. that is your opinion. Bigger business have done worst things in the past. so the good intentions of pinacle can't be labeled like a "fact" You might have misunderstood my point here, it has nothing to do with good intention, it's just about running a business and public relations. If you have restaurant, the last thing you want is someone dying of staphyloccocus aureus after they ate your menu. It's a same here. Therefore, it's natural for Pinnacle to try to show the custommers that they can safely trust them. From that point on, esport betting having a bad reputation (esport is not so well known, not so well understood, and most betters know about match fixing scandals in BW and CS:GO even if they never watched any esport game) it's critical for Pinnacle to show they care about it, that they're monitoring the lines and that if anything goes wrong they would void the bet. It's just like the McDonald's TV campains when they say their meat is 100% sure and top quality. That's why imho, they'd much prefer void a 100% legit and clean bet than taking the risk to have a scandal exploding in their hands afterward.... It would hurt their market and it would make their customers stop betting on esport. Cherry on the cake : for each betting market, there is traders, these are the guys that set the odds and adjust them when the bets come in. At pinnacle you have former sc2 player DarkForce who is the lead esport trader. It's him that decides in the end if a bet has to be voided or not. If a fraudulous bet was to happen and if a scandal was to explode because of it, not only it would take betters away from pinnacle esport bets in general, but also this fair guy would just loose his job. hope I made my statement more clear. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On April 15 2015 21:59 DJHelium wrote: I'll update it when they give the statement. For some reason I don't see that ever happening. They're just trying to deflect until our fickle attention dissipates. On April 15 2015 22:40 TBO wrote: What I don't understand in this case - unlike as in the other supposedly manipulated matches - that allegedly Soulkey was only supposed to lose the first map and then was free to win unlike the other matches where it was always a bo1 or the whole match was fixed. Actually it does make a lot of sense thinking about it, getting a player to lose 1 map of a best of five is probably cheaper and easier than to get him to lose the series especially if there is so much money at the line to win in Code S. This time however the betting lines are not completely silly, so rather than Soulkey being involved it imo is possible that someone knew what both Soulkey and Creator were going to do in the first map, which could give enough confidence to bet with such quotes. That could be either leaked insider information as well as trojans on their PCs or something similar. The betting lines were still silly enough that Pinnacle and *another* sports book closed the bets. I think once or twice we can try to think of outlandish theories (like San actually being in the hospital being leaked). But this has happened multiple times now. Not to mention this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/481281-pinnacle-voids-byul-vs-marineking-match?page=37#733 I wonder if the admins ever did vet this guy and if what he's saying is trustworthy? Last time I saw an anonymous poster was when Spades was revealed to be hacking and the TL admins said he was legit. Well I guess Rekrul just confirmed the allegations he was making in this thread too: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/483048-pinnacle-voids-soulkey-vs-creator-bets?page=5#97 | ||
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hfsrj
Germany166 Posts
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
On April 16 2015 16:20 Pr0wler wrote: By the way, nice promotion for that betting site. Before all those threads, I had never heard of it. Now I know everything about it, even part of their staff. lol this is a very good point | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On April 16 2015 15:32 Wuster wrote: For some reason I don't see that ever happening. They're just trying to deflect until our fickle attention dissipates. Not to mention this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/481281-pinnacle-voids-byul-vs-marineking-match?page=37#733 I wonder if the admins ever did vet this guy and if what he's saying is trustworthy? Last time I saw an anonymous poster was when Spades was revealed to be hacking and the TL admins said he was legit. That person is trustworthy. I am not saying that what he is saying is necessarily true (since I have no available insider information on the matter), but I can say that the alt is a reliable person. | ||
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ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On April 16 2015 16:49 ilikeredheads wrote: that Twitch VOD with Huk's thoughts on the matter has no audio. Open up the VOD and click refresh. | ||
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pretender58
Germany713 Posts
On April 16 2015 16:49 ilikeredheads wrote: that Twitch VOD with Huk's thoughts on the matter has no audio. ~1:02:40 | ||
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PharaphobiaSC2
Czech Republic85 Posts
Soon we will have a Daily post about matchfixing, where somebody pays few bucks to an IT guy to manually raise the numbers for certain bets (which is not hard to do) and than one sheep with name Swoo**** will start spamming twitter/tl with nonsense posts...  Everyone who tries to make living or is calling himself "proffesional" betters should be executed from this world, because betting only brings corruption, violence, betting and problems... NOTHING else | ||
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seom
South Africa491 Posts
On April 16 2015 16:57 PharaphobiaSC2 wrote: Hmm another post of Swoopae and Pinnacle... Soon we will have a Daily post about matchfixing, where somebody pays few bucks to an IT guy to manually raise the numbers for certain bets (which is not hard to do) and than one sheep with name Swoo**** will start spamming twitter/tl with nonsense posts... Everyone who tries to make living or is calling himself "proffesional" betters should be executed from this world, because betting only brings corruption, violence, betting and problems... NOTHING else pls stop shitposting, thread's bad enough as it is... | ||
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