Before closing the betting lines, Soulkey was a 2 to 1 favourite to win the series but Creator was a 3 to 1 favourite to win the first map. This means someone bet a lot of money on Soulkey losing game 1.
Like the previous cases where this has happened it proved to be true, as Soulkey failed to defend Creator's attack in game 1.
Can someone name this "[General] Pinnacle voids sc2 bets" where the op can collect and update all the information we have anytime something happens? It just is ridiculous to close these threads all the time, even if the discussion on the last page is questionable, the information in the op is relevant for people to see so we can get the information about possible matchfixing in korea out there! Otherwise nothing will change
On April 15 2015 21:51 lichter wrote: can we take bets on how long it takes for this thread to become too terrible to live?
It'll be better if you contact Kespa, MVP, Soulkey's team, Blizzard and Pinnacle to comment.
Does everyone want my rundown on what dynamic betting means, why it's impossible for Soulkey to be a big favourite for the series but a big underdog in map 1 and what it all means etc?
Holy balls, well atleast that is a happy medium? At least someone isnt throwing the whole game just a map so we can see who wins the rest of it. Unless someone bets Soulkey to win 3-1 or to win and concede 1 map.
On April 15 2015 21:51 Penev wrote: Here we go again. Hai Otherworld
I won't participate in this one, since there's nothing more to be said compared to previous threads. There is more than enough to suspect the involved players. There is not enough to outright condemn the involved players. Therefore proper investigation should be made in order to confirm or deny the suspicions placed upon the players. That said investigation will or will not be conducted is out of our control, sadly.
On April 15 2015 21:59 Swoopae wrote: Worth noting MVP promised a statement last week, yesterday and then again today on the Marineking situation if someone wants to add those tweets to OP
On April 15 2015 21:58 Garnet wrote: What happened in that game?
Creator tried to cannon SK's natural but it failed. Then Creator did a timing attack off of 3 base (9 gates) with 3 void rays and SK just suicided into it and lost
On April 15 2015 21:58 Garnet wrote: What happened in that game?
Soulkey got cannon rushed, lost some drones but held, it went to 3 base vs 3 and then Creator hit a timing as Soulkey tried to take a 4th, and won the fight.
Soulkey didn't make any one huge error, but obviously the betting lines are pretty damning and then Soulkey lost map 1 as the betting lines would suggest if the match was indeed fixed.
For what it's worth Creator was closer to +200 when the money started coming in on him for map 1 and he closed at -290 for map 1, but Soulkey only went from -300 to -219 for the series as a whole.
On April 15 2015 21:51 Penev wrote: Here we go again. Hai Otherworld
I won't participate in this one, since there's nothing more to be said compared to previous threads. There is more than enough to suspect the involved players. There is not enough to outright condemn the involved players. Therefore proper investigation should be made in order to confirm or deny the suspicions placed upon the players. That said investigation will or will not be conducted is out of our control, sadly.
Idd. This is probably my last post in this thread too. But curious about the MVP statement of course (well, a little).
On April 15 2015 22:00 Garnet wrote: and how do we know this isn't just Pinnacle being bullshit? did they show any proof? at least show an image of the betting lines.
On April 15 2015 22:00 Garnet wrote: and how do we know this isn't just Pinnacle being bullshit? did they show any proof? at least show an image of the betting lines.
They did, it's in the OP and one of the users in the live thread said he was watching it live and it got even higher
Pinnacle is a 100% reputable billion dollar company. The amount of money involved is peanuts to them and they would never falsify any data their reputation is too important.
Until you show me money being put in players hands, and/or conversations recorded/logged you don't have real proof, imo. Nothing that would stand up to any sort of legal matter involving accusing a player of matchfixing.
Are some of the bets suspicious? Yeah, of course, that's why they get pulled. Should there be an investigation into this? Absolutely. But I have yet to see one shred of definitive evidence that a player was willingly involved in this sort of thing other than stuff like "he played a little weird, guys..."
I'm also still holding my breath on that article that's supposed to come out and expose the rampant match-fixing scene in Korean Starcraft. You know, the one that TOTALLY has all the iron clad evidence, you just have to wait and see.
=/
At this point, if you feel you have legitimate evidence that there is evidence, you need to come forward with it, and force organizations into taking action. If it's truly there, it's time to stop sitting on it.
I'm just really not a fan of condemning a player based on betting lines. It's definitely an indicator that things should be looked into more closely, but seriously stop the witch hunting/trying to ruin players reputations.
Fact 1 : it's not someone who betted a lot of money, it's some people that betted some amount of money, said amount being enough to move the scales on game 1.
Fact 2 : Pinacle runs a business and wants esport betting to become a good banch of activity. The last thing they want is a scandal. What they want is to tell their customer : 'it is safe, it is legit, we're protecting you'
Fact 3 : there is no secret algorithm that automatically dectect a fraud in a betting line, at best an automated process spots wierd movements and in the end it's a human brain (the trader in chief -that Jonathan ‘DarKFoRcE’ Belke guy- I would suppose?) that decides if it's safe to keep the bet open or if it has to be voided.
Fact 4 : Pinacle pre-emtively canceld all bets of Prime just because they though they are weak and poor and likely to fall into match fixing.
Fact 5 : if Pinacle doesn't provide the list and amount of betters to KeSPA, GOM or korean authorities, nothing will happen, ever. The CS;GO scandal only was discovered when betters could be linked to the cheating team.
Fact 6 : Creator fucking won the whole series
In Pinacle's PR guy interview, the big line was 'the question is not 'is it possible?' but 'is it likely''
So my question is : how likely is it that Pinacle is just protecting their business by just voiding anything that is not usual, instead of taking any risk?
Kespa doesnt care. Former esf-Teams do not pay players (or not enough to make a living). Matchfixers secure income of not succesfull pros. Playing Proleague doesnt bring you any money, if you are in a team wihich does not pay you (enough).
When this gets public, after so many games have been fixed (we only know the failed fix attempts, where betting lines became too suspicious), this would kill the scene, if it becomes public.Broodwar was a large, succesfull game and the scandal still did so much damage, SC II is not a large succesfull game, a damage like brood war took, will just destroy it.
Finally I dont know if there will be another Pro League next year. As I know, esf-Teams wount be part of it and can you think about a 6 Team SPL? I mean, the big companys of Blizzard, CJ, Samsung and Co. must know about the fixing, everybody in KESPA headquarters will know it. Wount they just leave the scene instead of getting dragged into illegal stuff by players of an not succesfull game?
On April 15 2015 22:13 Clonester wrote: Kespa doesnt care. Former esf-Teams do not pay players (or not enough to make a living). Matchfixers secure income of not succesfull pros. Playing Proleague doesnt bring you any money, if you are in a team wihich does not pay you (enough).
When this gets public, after so many games have been fixed (we only know the failed fix attempts, where betting lines became too suspicious), this would kill the scene, if it becomes public.Broodwar was a large, succesfull game and the scandal still did so much damage, SC II is not a large succesfull game, a damage like brood war took, will just destroy it.
Finally I dont know if there will be another Pro League next year. As I know, esf-Teams wount be part of it and can you think about a 6 Team SPL? I mean, the big companys of Blizzard, CJ, Samsung and Co. must know about the fixing, everybody in KESPA headquarters will know it. Wount they just leave the scene instead of getting dragged into illegal stuff by players of an not succesfull game?
On April 15 2015 22:15 TheDwf wrote: Why do they carry on if their scheming is unmasked?
I asked before and apparently its because the real betting is on Korean sites and the Pinnacle stuff is just some noobs copying the bets on Pinnacle that they see on the illegal Korean sites.
On April 15 2015 22:09 mortales wrote: I don't see how it could be matchfixed, the game looked completely normal.
Not hard to make small minor micro/macro errors to lose a match. It's what a competently fixed match should look like, the Marineking match people said were suspicious 'because it was too obviously', which in that case was because MK scouted the cheese accidentally then had to pretend he didn't see it which made the match ridiculous.
This was certainly the most 'normal' of the cancelled bet matches, but the betting action alone makes me 99% sure the first map was fixed. It's pretty much statistically impossible for it not to have been if you understand betting algorithms and how the market behaves.
On April 15 2015 21:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: Can someone name this "[General] Pinnacle voids sc2 bets" where the op can collect and update all the information we have anytime something happens? It just is ridiculous to close these threads all the time, even if the discussion on the last page is questionable, the information in the op is relevant for people to see so we can get the information about possible matchfixing in korea out there! Otherwise nothing will change
Yes, no? I think it is important that people can see this as long as possible. I don't want witchhunts, i want pressure for Kespa/Blizzard/korean sc2 to react
On April 15 2015 22:15 TheDwf wrote: Why do they carry on if their scheming is unmasked?
I asked before and apparently its because the real betting is on Korean sites and the Pinnacle stuff is just some noobs copying the bets on Pinnacle that they see on the illegal Korean sites.
Yeah, but surely the judicial system will catch up with them sooner or later? This seems common knowledge, so I assume massive corruption is involved?
On April 15 2015 22:10 Gwavajuice wrote: Fact 1 : it's not someone who betted a lot of money, it's some people that betted some amount of money, said amount being enough to move the scales on game 1.
Fact 2 : Pinacle runs a business and wants esport betting to become a good banch of activity. The last thing they want is a scandal. What they want is to tell their customer : 'it is safe, it is legit, we're protecting you'
Fact 3 : there is no secret algorithm that automatically dectect a fraud in a betting line, at best an automated process spots wierd movements and in the end it's a human brain (the trader in chief -that Jonathan ‘DarKFoRcE’ Belke guy- I would suppose?) that decides if it's safe to keep the bet open or if it has to be voided.
Fact 4 : Pinacle pre-emtively canceld all bets of Prime just because they though they are weak and poor and likely to fall into match fixing.
Fact 5 : if Pinacle doesn't provide the list and amount of betters to KeSPA, GOM or korean authorities, nothing will happen, ever. The CS;GO scandal only was discovered when betters could be linked to the cheating team.
Fact 6 : Creator fucking won the whole series
In Pinacle's PR guy interview, the big line was 'the question is not 'is it possible?' but 'is it likely''
So my question is : how likely is it that Pinacle is just protecting their business by just voiding anything that is not usual, instead of taking any risk?
Pinnacle have offered to share their information with Kespa multiple times. The map in question for fixing was Map 1, what happens in maps 2-5 is irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.
The Esports market forms a semi negligible portion of Pinnacle's overall marketshare. I'm confident it's less than 1% and doesn't affect their bottom line at all
Match fixing resulting in bets being cancelled will scare more players away from Esports betting. Pinnacle isn't doing this for their bottom line at all, they're doing it to protect their customers from fraud.
On April 15 2015 21:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: Can someone name this "[General] Pinnacle voids sc2 bets" where the op can collect and update all the information we have anytime something happens? It just is ridiculous to close these threads all the time, even if the discussion on the last page is questionable, the information in the op is relevant for people to see so we can get the information about possible matchfixing in korea out there! Otherwise nothing will change
Yes, no? I think it is important that people can see this as long as possible. I don't want witchhunts, i want pressure for Kespa/Blizzard/korean sc2 to react
The discussion turns out to be really really bad though.
On April 15 2015 22:15 TheDwf wrote: Why do they carry on if their scheming is unmasked?
I asked before and apparently its because the real betting is on Korean sites and the Pinnacle stuff is just some noobs copying the bets on Pinnacle that they see on the illegal Korean sites.
Yeah, but surely the judicial system will catch up with them sooner or later? This seems common knowledge, so I assume massive corruption is involved?
Underground Betting in Korea is hugh (all betting there is undergroundbetting). Judicial System closes one betting ring there, 3 new start to exist. Its not about massive corruption, it is about fighting a hydra where each cut of head is followed by several new ones.
Sad. I like the pro games, seeing the very best sc2 players battle...
On April 15 2015 22:13 Clonester wrote: Kespa doesnt care. Former esf-Teams do not pay players (or not enough to make a living). Matchfixers secure income of not succesfull pros. Playing Proleague doesnt bring you any money, if you are in a team wihich does not pay you (enough).
When this gets public, after so many games have been fixed (we only know the failed fix attempts, where betting lines became too suspicious), this would kill the scene, if it becomes public.Broodwar was a large, succesfull game and the scandal still did so much damage, SC II is not a large succesfull game, a damage like brood war took, will just destroy it.
Finally I dont know if there will be another Pro League next year. As I know, esf-Teams wount be part of it and can you think about a 6 Team SPL? I mean, the big companys of Blizzard, CJ, Samsung and Co. must know about the fixing, everybody in KESPA headquarters will know it. Wount they just leave the scene instead of getting dragged into illegal stuff by players of an not succesfull game?
On April 15 2015 21:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: Can someone name this "[General] Pinnacle voids sc2 bets" where the op can collect and update all the information we have anytime something happens? It just is ridiculous to close these threads all the time, even if the discussion on the last page is questionable, the information in the op is relevant for people to see so we can get the information about possible matchfixing in korea out there! Otherwise nothing will change
Yes, no? I think it is important that people can see this as long as possible. I don't want witchhunts, i want pressure for Kespa/Blizzard/korean sc2 to react
The discussion turns out to be really really bad though.
I don't even care about the "discussion", there really isn't much to discuss anyway. What's important is that there is an op which has all the important information, objectively collected. A stickied thread without comment function would do the trick (which gets updated anytime a bet is voided)
On April 15 2015 21:51 lichter wrote: can we take bets on how long it takes for this thread to become too terrible to live?
Going to have to void these, some suspicious betting lines. Sorry.
First off, big fan, keep up the good work casting.
That said
You said during the Marineking vs Zest match that you saw 'no evidence' and 'everyone should forget about this'. Do you stand by those statements? I'm really disappointed you made them, match fixing is rampant right now in Korea and will destroy the scene if Kespa don't get their house in order and start kicking match fixers out of proleague/gsl/starleague and it will kill the game we all love. Did you read the full Marineking/Byul thread and if so, you really see no evidence whatsoever that the match was fixed?
It's not a one off thing, this is happening almost on a weekly basis now.
On April 15 2015 22:15 TheDwf wrote: Why do they carry on if their scheming is unmasked?
Not every fixed match will have bets cancelled. I'm sure there have been some fixed matches that we haven't uncovered and even for the matches we have uncovered, nobody has been punished and the bets were just cancelled so everyone gets their money back - the match fixers make new accounts and try again (and Pinnacle is only one of many sportsbooks)
On April 15 2015 22:34 digmouse wrote: Oh god please no more.
Of course more, the first cases all got ignored. Why shouldn't there be more if no one acts?
Exactly. This thread will be made every few weeks until the problem is dealt with every time a match is thrown. More and more of our favourite players will be tempted to throw matches if they see no punishment is given out for match fixing. Kespa need to set an example and actually investigate and punish the parties guilty of match fixing. It's ruining the game.
On April 15 2015 22:38 Musicus wrote: So sad, why must this happen to our game .
Because it gets swept under the rug every time it happens and nobody is punished, and a substantial portion of the community would rather pretend that the problem doesn't exist than to take the short term pain, investigate it, ban some players who were caught match fixing and deal with it. People won't match fix anywhere near as frequently if the threat of having their career taken away from them if caught is there.
What I don't understand in this case - unlike as in the other supposedly manipulated matches - that allegedly Soulkey was only supposed to lose the first map and then was free to win unlike the other matches where it was always a bo1 or the whole match was fixed. Actually it does make a lot of sense thinking about it, getting a player to lose 1 map of a best of five is probably cheaper and easier than to get him to lose the series especially if there is so much money at the line to win in Code S. This time however the betting lines are not completely silly, so rather than Soulkey being involved it imo is possible that someone knew what both Soulkey and Creator were going to do in the first map, which could give enough confidence to bet with such quotes. That could be either leaked insider information as well as trojans on their PCs or something similar.
Actually, in both Super vs Dream Map 1 and Innovation vs Super map 1, the player was only supposed to lose map 1 both times, and did so (in one case winning the series in one case losing the series)
In the Marineking and San cases the match was a bo1 so losing one map meant losing the series
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
On April 15 2015 22:42 Swoopae wrote: Actually, in both Super vs Dream Map 1 and Innovation vs Super map 1, the player was only supposed to lose map 1 both times, and did so (in one case winning the series in one case losing the series)
In the Marineking and San cases the match was a bo1 so losing one map meant losing the series
ah okay my bad then, but as I wrote it actually makes sense to only manipulate single matches of a series.
Well, soon the Korean scene will lose all its legitimacy and the foreign scene hasn't amounted for anything in a long time anyway. Starcraft 2 isn't dead, people still like the game and play it, but its competitive scene isn't looking too healthy. Well, we'll do better next time, with Warcraft 4? :D
Of course, it allows the player throwing one map a chance to advance, which in turn would make it cheaper for the match fixers to pay the player as he isn't sacrificing as much, and the bettors can just bet on Map 1 instead of the whole series (which is what happened today in Soulkey vs Creator Map 1 - Soulkey was still a favourite to win the series, but Creator was bet in from being a big underdog to being a big favourite in Map 1 specifically)
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
On April 15 2015 22:40 TBO wrote: What I don't understand in this case - unlike as in the other supposedly manipulated matches - that allegedly Soulkey was only supposed to lose the first map and then was free to win unlike the other matches where it was always a bo1 or the whole match was fixed. Actually it does make a lot of sense thinking about it, getting a player to lose 1 map of a best of five is probably cheaper and easier than to get him to lose the series especially if there is so much money at the line to win in Code S. This time however the betting lines are not completely silly, so rather than Soulkey being involved it imo is possible that someone knew what both Soulkey and Creator were going to do in the first map, which could give enough confidence to bet with such quotes. That could be either leaked insider information as well as trojans on their PCs or something similar.
On April 15 2015 22:46 Swoopae wrote: Of course, it allows the player throwing one map a chance to advance, which in turn would make it cheaper for the match fixers to pay the player as he isn't sacrificing as much, and the bettors can just bet on Map 1 instead of the whole series (which is what happened today in Soulkey vs Creator Map 1 - Soulkey was still a favourite to win the series, but Creator was bet in from being a big underdog to being a big favourite in Map 1 specifically)
disadvantage for them should be that the volume bet on single maps probably is quite a bit lower than volume bet on matches so manipulation is more easily detectable? Or am I wrong to assume that more people bet on whole series than single maps?
What really puzzles me is that the bet voidings pile up, but we still have no statement from Kespa about this... When I think about what happened before, and especially how harsh and unforgiving Kespa can be, this looks weird.
On April 15 2015 22:46 Swoopae wrote: Of course, it allows the player throwing one map a chance to advance, which in turn would make it cheaper for the match fixers to pay the player as he isn't sacrificing as much, and the bettors can just bet on Map 1 instead of the whole series (which is what happened today in Soulkey vs Creator Map 1 - Soulkey was still a favourite to win the series, but Creator was bet in from being a big underdog to being a big favourite in Map 1 specifically)
disadvantage for them should be that the volume bet on single maps probably is quite a bit lower than volume bet on matches so manipulation is more easily detectable? Or am I wrong to assume that more people bet on whole series than single maps?
The first map lines go up at the same time as match as a whole lines so the limits are usually the same or similar. Maps 2 and later only go up after the completion of the previous map so limits are lower - I assume this is why we are seeing this occur so frequently on Map 1 of a series.
On April 15 2015 22:40 TBO wrote: so rather than Soulkey being involved it imo is possible that someone knew what both Soulkey and Creator were going to do in the first map, which could give enough confidence to bet with such quotes. That could be either leaked insider information as well as trojans on their PCs or something similar.
Probably below 1% chance. Its a pure denial to consider these conspiracy theories at this point.
I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
They would just be shooting themselves in the foot. It's hard to have customers as a sportsbook if people think you're closing bets you're losing on. The idea that they would void bets to prevent losing money on this is also ridiculous when you consider that they are also a book for real sports, which see much more money than SC2 probably does. They advertised single bet limits of up to 1 million USD for the world cup final last year. SC2 is chump change compared to that.
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
Ok so what is leading them to void the bet, simply that an unusual amount of bets are being made one way?
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no?
On April 15 2015 22:40 TBO wrote: so rather than Soulkey being involved it imo is possible that someone knew what both Soulkey and Creator were going to do in the first map, which could give enough confidence to bet with such quotes. That could be either leaked insider information as well as trojans on their PCs or something similar.
Probably below 1% chance. Its a pure denial to consider these conspiracy theories at this point.
For the other matches I'd agree as the betting lines were just way beyond anything normal, and beyond anyhing where knowing the build orders is enough to bet with those lines. However it would also be naive to assume that criminals don't try to get an information advantage for free instead of having to pay bribes. Infecting a korean teamhouse is probably not that hard. I don't have any firsthand information about kespa teams but knowing what a mess korean non-kespa teams make out of their PCs then it should not be that hard to infect them remotely or have it being infected with a USB-stick by a B-Teamer, cleaning lady, visitor etc.
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no?
The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately.
The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen: 1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash. 2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money. 3. Vast majority of people don't notice. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed but even most of them just enjoy the drama or don't care LOL
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no?
The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately.
I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have?
On April 15 2015 23:05 sharkie wrote: Since the games turned out to be normal I would say this was a false alarm
People crave drama. And people don't think before they start this kind of stuff. Why would soulkey match-fix, he's already made 100k plus from SC2 and he stands to make nothing from this. And I will fucking fight anyone to the death who accuses Creator of colluding in matchfixing. You could hold a gun to his head and tell him to lose a game and he'd say "fuck you I'm gonna win everything because Im going to be the best."
Call common sense nativity if you want. But the court of public opinion is a court of bullshit
On April 15 2015 22:40 TBO wrote: so rather than Soulkey being involved it imo is possible that someone knew what both Soulkey and Creator were going to do in the first map, which could give enough confidence to bet with such quotes. That could be either leaked insider information as well as trojans on their PCs or something similar.
Probably below 1% chance. Its a pure denial to consider these conspiracy theories at this point.
Is it's more likely to convince a player to throw than it would be to get someone within each practice environment to share information?
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
No, they're not doing this to protect their money. Objectively they would be thrilled to have a pile of money on Creator as a substantial favourite in map 1 since objectively Soulkey is a small to moderate favourite in each map. Also, since Soulkey was the favourite for the series as a whole, they would have a hedge there anyway. Also, the amount of money is completely trivial to Pinnacle. The size of the bets relative to the action Pinnacle takes on major sports each day would be the equivalent of a couple of cents to you or me, certainly not worth risking their reputation over.
On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote: The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen: 1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash. 2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money. 3. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed, the rest enjoy the drama or don't care LOL
On April 15 2015 23:05 sharkie wrote: Since the games turned out to be normal I would say this was a false alarm
People crave drama. And people don't think before they start this kind of stuff. Why would soulkey match-fix, he's already made 100k plus from SC2 and he stands to make nothing from this. And I will fucking fight anyone to the death who accuses Creator of colluding in matchfixing. You could hold a gun to his head and tell him to lose a game and he'd say "fuck you I'm gonna win everything because Im going to be the best."
Call common sense nativity if you want. But the court of public opinion is a court of bullshit
Savior made much more money than SK, had more to lose than SK and he still FIXED. That's no reason lol
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no?
The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately.
I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have?
People will tell you that the gambling company is voiding bets to protect their reputation but anyone with half a brain knows that isn't true because gambling institutions don't run on reputations, they run on providing an outlet for gamblers to throw away money. If they see they're going to take a huge loss they're going to make sure they don't.
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no?
The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately.
I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have?
People will tell you that the gambling company is voiding bets to protect their reputation but anyone with half a brain knows that isn't true because gambling institutions don't run on reputations, they run on providing an outlet for gamblers to throw away money. If they see they're going to take a huge loss they're going to make sure they don't.
Maybe you confuse your back hound betting brooker next door with a billion dollar company.
On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote: The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen: 1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash. 2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money. 3. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed, the rest enjoy the drama or don't care LOL
So... "it's rigged, but carry on"?
The Elephant in the Room did warn us that competition was a farce.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no?
The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately.
I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have?
People will tell you that the gambling company is voiding bets to protect their reputation but anyone with half a brain knows that isn't true because gambling institutions don't run on reputations, they run on providing an outlet for gamblers to throw away money. If they see they're going to take a huge loss they're going to make sure they don't.
Exactly I mean how does voiding a bet save their reputation, if they didn't today no one would've questioned this game. It's true that when betting on a sport/game exists their is inevitably the potential for matchfixing. But if the only evidence is betting lines, I'm not buying it. What sort of evidence was there for the BW matchfixing scandal?
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no?
The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately.
I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have?
People will tell you that the gambling company is voiding bets to protect their reputation but anyone with half a brain knows that isn't true because gambling institutions don't run on reputations, they run on providing an outlet for gamblers to throw away money. If they see they're going to take a huge loss they're going to make sure they don't.
Maybe you confuse your back hound betting brooker next door with a billion dollar company.
A casino with a reputation for making sure every patron loses, and breaking limbs of anyone who says anything about it can still be a multi-million dollar business...but that is nothing like this at all...open your damn eyes
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
Ok so what is leading them to void the bet, simply that an unusual amount of bets are being made one way?
Yes
In Marineking vs Byul for example, Marineking started out as a just under a 2-1 underdog in a best of 1. He closed at more than an 8-1 underdog in a best of 1. He then scouted incoming cheese and did nothing for over a minute while it was on his minimap and creep was coming into his base, then threw down a third CC with creep inside his base. Multiple pros confirmed it would be impossible for a proleague caliber player to miss that, and the video showed his eyes looking towards where the minimap should be, plus his lack of reaction was ridiculous. He was also acting very strangely both before and after the match to the degree that the commentators mentioned it on the stream, which would make sense if he was nervous because it was his first time fixing a match.
San vs Dark; San was a PvZ killer at the time who had 2-0'd Dark just one week before. He started out at even money and closed as a 5-1 underdog in a best of 1. He then lost his mothership core to an offcreep queen, did an all in build but never attacked, then made a terrible blink forward into hydralisks in the final battle.
Innovation vs Super map 1 - Innovation was one of the best players in the world at the time. He was a substantial favourite to win the series, but was close to a 4-1 underdog in Map 1 specifically, while remaining a favourite in the best of 3 series. He lost map 1, then won the series.
Super vs Dream, Super was a small underdog for the series as a whole, but an enormous underdog for Map 1 specifically. He lost map 1 then went on to lose the series.
Soulkey vs Creator - Soulkey was a close to a 3-1 favourite to win to win the series as a whole, but Creator was close to a 4-1 favourite to win the first map specifically, while remaining an underdog to win the whole series, Creator won Map 1.
Bunny vs Yoda - Yoda was a small favourite and went to being a huge underdog. The betting lines didn't get cancelled here, but Bunny became a huge favourite and then won a mildly suspicious game with Yoda throwing away multiple banshees from memory (i'd need to rewatch)
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote: I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place.
Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no?
The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately.
I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have?
People will tell you that the gambling company is voiding bets to protect their reputation but anyone with half a brain knows that isn't true because gambling institutions don't run on reputations, they run on providing an outlet for gamblers to throw away money. If they see they're going to take a huge loss they're going to make sure they don't.
Maybe you confuse your back hound betting brooker next door with a billion dollar company.
A casino with a reputation for making sure every patron loses, and breaking limbs of anyone who says anything about it can still be a multi-million dollar business...but that is nothing like this at all...open your damn eyes
Actually Pinnacle welcomes winning bettors and professional sportsbettors even to sharpen their lines so they have the biggest limits on the market once the lines are sharp. They do not ban winning bettors like most sportsbooks.
On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote: The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen: 1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash. 2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money. 3. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed, the rest enjoy the drama or don't care LOL
So... "it's rigged, but carry on"?
The Elephant in the Room did warn us that competition was a farce.
intrigue knew about this all along ! e : quickly rereading this article, there's a quote from Mvp that is funnily sad (or sadly funny I guess) here :
"I don't know if it's okay to say this, but in the end pros play to make money."
e² : holy shit I had forgotten that MarineKing played Protoss
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
Pinnacle don't make any money from "winning bets". They make money from taking a cut, as all bookies do. All they do is match punters up against each other. That is why you can't stake a high amount of money until the lines are shaped.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You should apply your own signature to yourself (:
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Excellent retort, way to call someones opinion wrong because they don't agree with you. I hope everyone follows you blindly off your holier-than-thou cliff
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
I'm not denying that match fixing is happening, if people are betting then the potential is there. But looking at evidence is still subjective dude. There needs to more than betting lines for evidence.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Excellent retort, way to call someones opinion wrong because they don't agree with you. I hope everyone follows you blindly off your holier-than-thou cliff
I don't follow blindly. I've educated myself about betting lines and have taken the opinions of insiders seriously. I came to the same conclusion as Swoopae unfortunately.
There's always going to be players/fans who refuse everything. Hell even when Savior admitted matchfixing the biggest fans didn't stop praising him. No need to try to convince everyone, just state the facts clearly enough so the people can take their own conclusions. In my case watching the MK game and finally understanding how betting works (I've been learning how to play Poker and it helped a lot tbh) made it clear to me.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Excellent retort, way to call someones opinion wrong because they don't agree with you. I hope everyone follows you blindly off your holier-than-thou cliff
Meh, you call people out for believing in data. If i look at these threads more people actually believe in your opinion (cause they usually have zero understanding of betting and probabilites). All you do is shout "hey it is more likely that this big betting site would void bets cause they are greedy than it is for young, poor players to throw matches" I mean maybe you really think it's more probable, but i don't think that's very rational at this point.
While I think it's important to keep note that stuff like this is happening (crazy betting lines, MarineKing throwing a PL game, etc.), I also think it's getting to be rather annoying seeing a new thread for every event.
Could someone please make a dedicated thread or something for all these, instead of making a new one each time?
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
This.
Its actually very sad that after all we have there are still people that can say that "there is no proof" with a straight face.
It's not my fault that you don't understand math and probability Longshot. I've explained multiple times why it is statistically impossible that match fixing is not occurring based on the numbers we are seeing. It's my job to understand math and probability and reach logical conclusions. Anyone in the sportsbetting community will agree has a 99%+ probability of it being the correct conclusion which is as close as we can come to 'beyond reasonable doubt' that match fixing is occuring in the Korean SC2 scene right now. We have nothing left to say to each other at this point. There are still people who believe Sandy Hook and 9/11 were false flag operations and that we didn't land on the moon. None of these are logical conclusions to reach upon careful evaluation of the evidence, but people reach these conclusions and defend them anyway.
I encourage people to learn how betting works, what dynamic betting lines are and what Pinnacle's business model involves. I have answered these questions in the previous matchfixing threads, but if anyone has questions about whatever feel free to PM me and I can answer the questions or point you to resources that teach you how betting works.
Regarding Rekrul's post, he makes some good points, but I don't agree necessarily that Kespa can't do anything about it. I'm sure he knows more than I do about the match fixing in Korea, as do the many pros (Huk, Kane, Welmu, etc) who have commented on the matter.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
This.
Its actually very sad that after all we have there are still people that can say that "there is no proof" with a straight face.
I've been trying to find it myself but so far no one has pointed to anything other than betting lines, what else am I missing?
On April 15 2015 21:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: Can someone name this "[General] Pinnacle voids sc2 bets" where the op can collect and update all the information we have anytime something happens? It just is ridiculous to close these threads all the time, even if the discussion on the last page is questionable, the information in the op is relevant for people to see so we can get the information about possible matchfixing in korea out there! Otherwise nothing will change
Yes, no? I think it is important that people can see this as long as possible. I don't want witchhunts, i want pressure for Kespa/Blizzard/korean sc2 to react
The discussion turns out to be really really bad though.
I don't even care about the "discussion", there really isn't much to discuss anyway. What's important is that there is an op which has all the important information, objectively collected. A stickied thread without comment function would do the trick (which gets updated anytime a bet is voided)
We simply cannot really discuss anything, it always comes down to: "i don't believe this cause X" against "look at the data, it is evidence!" We have literally nothing to discuss, BUT people should be aware what happened, how betting works, what people with conncetions in korea said and draw their own conclusion from there on. Closing every thread were people go crazy is a bad way, PLS just make an op with all the evidence we have atm, make it sticky and deactivate the comment fucntion, TY
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
I'm not denying that match fixing is happening, if people are betting then the potential is there. But looking at evidence is still subjective dude. There needs to more than betting lines for evidence.
Did you watch the Marineking vs Byul match? Justify his decisions from the standpoint that he is trying to win the game. It just isn't as obvious in some of the other matches because the players are better at fixing, so they make smaller errors that compound over time to lose the match.
On April 15 2015 23:38 Swoopae wrote: It's not my fault that you don't understand math and probability Longshot. I've explained multiple times why it is statistically impossible that match fixing is not occurring based on the numbers we are seeing. It's my job to understand math and probability and reach logical conclusions. Anyone in the sportsbetting community will agree has a 99%+ probability of it being the correct conclusion which is as close as we can come to 'beyond reasonable doubt' that match fixing is occuring in the Korean SC2 scene right now. We have nothing left to say to each other at this point. There are still people who believe Sandy Hook and 9/11 were false flag operations and that we didn't land on the moon. None of these are logical conclusions to reach upon careful evaluation of the evidence, but people reach these conclusions and defend them anyway.
Regarding Rekrul's post, he makes some good points, but I don't agree necessarily that Kespa can't do anything about it. I'm sure he knows more than I do about the match fixing in Korea, as do the many pros (Huk, Kane, Welmu, etc) who have commented on the matter.
2015, doesn't believe 9/11 was a false flag. You almost had me convinced there Swoopae :p
Do the "Pinnacle voids a bet" threads serve a purpose anymore? Every one results in the same posts and the same tail-chasing arguments from people who believe one side and people who believe the other. Nobody is gleaning truly new information, and no knowledge is coming out of them that had not been discussed to death in each previous thread in the exact same way.
On April 15 2015 23:41 Circumstance wrote: Do the "Pinnacle voids a bet" threads serve a purpose anymore? Every one results in the same posts and the same tail-chasing arguments from people who believe one side and people who believe the other. Nobody is gleaning truly new information, and no knowledge is coming out of them that had not been discussed to death in each previous thread in the exact same way.
Yes it serves a purpose. We want a statement from Kespa and we're not going to get one if we 'just forget this happened' every time it happens.
I agree it may be time for a single thread though detailing all of the relevant information on the suspicious matches in question etc. rather than a new thread every time.
Why isn't the Korean police doing anything? Many call out KeSPA, but they may or may not investigate and have some interest at sweeping the whole thing under the rug, so ultimately they can't be completely trusted in this issue. The police on the other hand can't deny to investigate the issue and they have much better tools (checking for suspicious transactions and auditing) compared to KeSPA (politely asking coaches and checking replays).
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Nah, I'm kinda going with Rekrul's point that the biggest thing your threads have done is advertise Pinnacle as a "multi-billion company" of which e-sports is 0.1% of their business (LOL) and pump yourself up as the savior of e-sports, pun intended.
All I can say is no, thanks. E-sports being clean for gambling, which is illegal in most countries of the fans and players, is hardly a sign of health for the game.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Well atleast we now know why Swoopae keeps posting the same thing over and over and over and over again to the point where it becomes monotonous drivel, to SAVE ESPORTS!
On April 15 2015 23:41 Circumstance wrote: Do the "Pinnacle voids a bet" threads serve a purpose anymore? Every one results in the same posts and the same tail-chasing arguments from people who believe one side and people who believe the other. Nobody is gleaning truly new information, and no knowledge is coming out of them that had not been discussed to death in each previous thread in the exact same way.
I disagree, I had little to no idea about how rampant matchfixing is (most likely) in korean SC2 before collecting the data in the last two threads. You have to dig hard between all the useless posts, but it is possible.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
I'm not denying that match fixing is happening, if people are betting then the potential is there. But looking at evidence is still subjective dude. There needs to more than betting lines for evidence.
Did you watch the Marineking vs Byul match? Justify his decisions from the standpoint that he is trying to win the game. It just isn't as obvious in some of the other matches because the players are better at fixing, so they make smaller errors that compound over time to lose the match.
Full disclosure I have always been an MK fan.
I think he is past his prime, hasn't kept up with the game and he has always been stubborn in terms of builds.
When he saw the 1 base he must've suspected a 1base all in and not thought of proxy hatch as a possibility (he didn't check both golds). He made a lot of mistakes in that match, enough that it looks absurd to pro players who have the luxury of hindsight and not being MK in those moments. But until we see him look at the spine in FPV on the replay I don't see anything justifying a 'mk throws match' claim.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Well atleast we now know why Swoopae keeps posting the same thing over and over and over and over again to the point where it becomes monotonous drivel, to SAVE ESPORTS!
I am not quite sure what your side is tbh. I guess it's kinda "meh whatever" ?
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
I'm not denying that match fixing is happening, if people are betting then the potential is there. But looking at evidence is still subjective dude. There needs to more than betting lines for evidence.
Did you watch the Marineking vs Byul match? Justify his decisions from the standpoint that he is trying to win the game. It just isn't as obvious in some of the other matches because the players are better at fixing, so they make smaller errors that compound over time to lose the match.
Full disclosure I have always been an MK fan.
I think he is past his prime, hasn't kept up with the game and he has always been stubborn in terms of builds.
When he saw the 1 base he must've suspected a 1base all in and not thought of proxy hatch as a possibility (he didn't check both golds). He made a lot of mistakes in that match, enough that it looks absurd to pro players who have the luxury of hindsight and not being MK in those moments. But until we see him look at the spine in FPV on the replay I don't see anything justifying a 'mk throws match' claim.
Ehm, no. He scouted a late pool too. Where did all of Byuls minerals go?
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
I'm not denying that match fixing is happening, if people are betting then the potential is there. But looking at evidence is still subjective dude. There needs to more than betting lines for evidence.
Did you watch the Marineking vs Byul match? Justify his decisions from the standpoint that he is trying to win the game. It just isn't as obvious in some of the other matches because the players are better at fixing, so they make smaller errors that compound over time to lose the match.
Full disclosure I have always been an MK fan.
I think he is past his prime, hasn't kept up with the game and he has always been stubborn in terms of builds.
When he saw the 1 base he must've suspected a 1base all in and not thought of proxy hatch as a possibility (he didn't check both golds). He made a lot of mistakes in that match, enough that it looks absurd to pro players who have the luxury of hindsight and not being MK in those moments. But until we see him look at the spine in FPV on the replay I don't see anything justifying a 'mk throws match' claim.
Ehm, no. He scouted a late pool too. Where did all of Byuls minerals go?
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
I'm not denying that match fixing is happening, if people are betting then the potential is there. But looking at evidence is still subjective dude. There needs to more than betting lines for evidence.
Did you watch the Marineking vs Byul match? Justify his decisions from the standpoint that he is trying to win the game. It just isn't as obvious in some of the other matches because the players are better at fixing, so they make smaller errors that compound over time to lose the match.
Full disclosure I have always been an MK fan.
I think he is past his prime, hasn't kept up with the game and he has always been stubborn in terms of builds.
When he saw the 1 base he must've suspected a 1base all in and not thought of proxy hatch as a possibility (he didn't check both golds). He made a lot of mistakes in that match, enough that it looks absurd to pro players who have the luxury of hindsight and not being MK in those moments. But until we see him look at the spine in FPV on the replay I don't see anything justifying a 'mk throws match' claim.
Ehm, no. He scouted a late pool too. Where did all of Byuls minerals go?
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
I'm not denying that match fixing is happening, if people are betting then the potential is there. But looking at evidence is still subjective dude. There needs to more than betting lines for evidence.
Did you watch the Marineking vs Byul match? Justify his decisions from the standpoint that he is trying to win the game. It just isn't as obvious in some of the other matches because the players are better at fixing, so they make smaller errors that compound over time to lose the match.
Full disclosure I have always been an MK fan.
I think he is past his prime, hasn't kept up with the game and he has always been stubborn in terms of builds.
When he saw the 1 base he must've suspected a 1base all in and not thought of proxy hatch as a possibility (he didn't check both golds). He made a lot of mistakes in that match, enough that it looks absurd to pro players who have the luxury of hindsight and not being MK in those moments. But until we see him look at the spine in FPV on the replay I don't see anything justifying a 'mk throws match' claim.
Ehm, no. He scouted a late pool too. Where did all of Byuls minerals go?
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Well atleast we now know why Swoopae keeps posting the same thing over and over and over and over again to the point where it becomes monotonous drivel, to SAVE ESPORTS!
I am not quite sure what your side is tbh. I guess it's kinda "meh whatever" ?
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Well atleast we now know why Swoopae keeps posting the same thing over and over and over and over again to the point where it becomes monotonous drivel, to SAVE ESPORTS!
He said to save 'korean esport scene', there is no need to go full ironic retard here.
Swoop done a fine job directing the public attention to the issue, so i am not sure why you have to be a dick about it, unless you are looking for a cheap internet hi-fives. I was assuming you were smarter than that, perphaps i was too hasty.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
I'm not denying that match fixing is happening, if people are betting then the potential is there. But looking at evidence is still subjective dude. There needs to more than betting lines for evidence.
Did you watch the Marineking vs Byul match? Justify his decisions from the standpoint that he is trying to win the game. It just isn't as obvious in some of the other matches because the players are better at fixing, so they make smaller errors that compound over time to lose the match.
Full disclosure I have always been an MK fan.
I think he is past his prime, hasn't kept up with the game and he has always been stubborn in terms of builds.
When he saw the 1 base he must've suspected a 1base all in and not thought of proxy hatch as a possibility (he didn't check both golds). He made a lot of mistakes in that match, enough that it looks absurd to pro players who have the luxury of hindsight and not being MK in those moments. But until we see him look at the spine in FPV on the replay I don't see anything justifying a 'mk throws match' claim.
Ehm, no. He scouted a late pool too. Where did all of Byuls minerals go?
We all know that if you scout late pool you know the mins are somewhere, but the possibility that he misjudged what he saw is thrown out of the window. It's possible to make mistakes. The way he set up his wall, units he went for were to hold the 1 base pressure then the 3rd CC to be ahead economically. I argue he stupidly didn't think of proxy hatch as an option.
On April 15 2015 23:41 Circumstance wrote: Do the "Pinnacle voids a bet" threads serve a purpose anymore? Every one results in the same posts and the same tail-chasing arguments from people who believe one side and people who believe the other. Nobody is gleaning truly new information, and no knowledge is coming out of them that had not been discussed to death in each previous thread in the exact same way.
Yes it serves a purpose. We want a statement from Kespa and we're not going to get one if we 'just forget this happened' every time it happens.
I agree it may be time for a single thread though detailing all of the relevant information on the suspicious matches in question etc. rather than a new thread every time.
Hopefully we get MVP's statement soon.
Every thread with the term "Pinnacle voids" in the title has been locked, all for the same reason - it outlived it's purposee and devolved into nothing more than petty bickering and circular arguments. We're not even ten pages deep and there are already personal attacks on posters in this one. You want a pattern that can't be ignored? Try that one.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Well atleast we now know why Swoopae keeps posting the same thing over and over and over and over again to the point where it becomes monotonous drivel, to SAVE ESPORTS!
I am not quite sure what your side is tbh. I guess it's kinda "meh whatever" ?
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Well atleast we now know why Swoopae keeps posting the same thing over and over and over and over again to the point where it becomes monotonous drivel, to SAVE ESPORTS!
I am not quite sure what your side is tbh. I guess it's kinda "meh whatever" ?
I am not quite sure why one needs a side.
Because in this community you need to make snap judgements based on the first sniff of evidence that people submit. /s
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Well atleast we now know why Swoopae keeps posting the same thing over and over and over and over again to the point where it becomes monotonous drivel, to SAVE ESPORTS!
I am not quite sure what your side is tbh. I guess it's kinda "meh whatever" ?
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
and you don't understand what proof means. Obviously there is match fixing going on since it plagued everything (Champion's League and WC in football) but the amount of proof is so small that nothing gets done in any sport. Main problem is that betting is a cancer for any competitive activity.
Are bets within the same line of (e-)sport voided independently from eachother? Or do the requirements for a void lower whenever a void in the same 'region' already occured?
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Well atleast we now know why Swoopae keeps posting the same thing over and over and over and over again to the point where it becomes monotonous drivel, to SAVE ESPORTS!
I am not quite sure what your side is tbh. I guess it's kinda "meh whatever" ?
Nah i know. I am just curious what in his opinion should happen now. Imo there are only really 3 options: 1. let's ignore it cause we don't want to risk the end of korean sc2 2. let's force korean entities to investigate, even if that means korean sc2 could be gone 3. i don't care at all
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
You've made up your mind without looking objectively at evidence. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is objectively wrong. I mean, i'm doing my best to help save the Korean Esports scene before it's too late but if everyone wants to pretend the problem doesn't exist, then there's nothing more I can do. As Huk said, the longer this goes on before it's exposed the more likely it is that it'll kill the scene altogether rather than result in the suspension of the matchfixing players.
Well atleast we now know why Swoopae keeps posting the same thing over and over and over and over again to the point where it becomes monotonous drivel, to SAVE ESPORTS!
I am not quite sure what your side is tbh. I guess it's kinda "meh whatever" ?
Nah i know. I am just curious what in his opinion should happen now. Imo there are only really 3 options: 1. let's ignore it cause we don't want to risk the end of korean sc2 2. let's force korean entities to investigate, even if that means korean sc2 could be gone 3. i don't care at all
On April 15 2015 22:10 Gwavajuice wrote: Fact 1 : it's not someone who betted a lot of money, it's some people that betted some amount of money, said amount being enough to move the scales on game 1.
Fact 2 : Pinacle runs a business and wants esport betting to become a good banch of activity. The last thing they want is a scandal. What they want is to tell their customer : 'it is safe, it is legit, we're protecting you'
Fact 3 : there is no secret algorithm that automatically dectect a fraud in a betting line, at best an automated process spots wierd movements and in the end it's a human brain (the trader in chief -that Jonathan ‘DarKFoRcE’ Belke guy- I would suppose?) that decides if it's safe to keep the bet open or if it has to be voided.
Fact 4 : Pinacle pre-emtively canceld all bets of Prime just because they though they are weak and poor and likely to fall into match fixing.
Fact 5 : if Pinacle doesn't provide the list and amount of betters to KeSPA, GOM or korean authorities, nothing will happen, ever. The CS;GO scandal only was discovered when betters could be linked to the cheating team.
Fact 6 : Creator fucking won the whole series
In Pinacle's PR guy interview, the big line was 'the question is not 'is it possible?' but 'is it likely''
So my question is : how likely is it that Pinacle is just protecting their business by just voiding anything that is not usual, instead of taking any risk?
Pinnacle have offered to share their information with Kespa multiple times. The map in question for fixing was Map 1, what happens in maps 2-5 is irrelevant for the purposes of this thread. The Esports market forms a semi negligible portion of Pinnacle's overall marketshare. I'm confident it's less than 1% and doesn't affect their bottom line at all
Match fixing resulting in bets being cancelled will scare more players away from Esports betting. Pinnacle isn't doing this for their bottom line at all, they're doing it to protect their customers from fraud.
don't be so sure though....
Q : The whole eSports scene is growing rapidly and more and more players have become professionals in the last couple of years. There are people who believe that in 10 to 20 years eSports might be bigger than conventional ball games. Do you agree?
A: I would say that depends a lot on what conventional ball game we are talking about . Will it be bigger than Soccer (or Football, as most of the World says)? Definitely not. But it could definitely get bigger than some of the smaller/medium sports. In fact, we are already offering higher limits on Pro-League, GSL, LCS and OGN The Champions than we do on national Volleyball leagues, Darts or Snooker – just to name a few examples. Our belief in eSports and its potential for growth is reflected in our offering more than any other book, and the adjoining belief that by hosting events and offering markets, we’re contributing to that growth.
Pinnacle is about bets, not about the thing people bet on, if it can offer good odds, if it gives some good arbitrage opportunities (arbitrage opportunities is something Pinnacle is famous for afaik) it's good businees for them... They would offer bets on snail racing if enough people were interested in snail races.
On April 16 2015 00:17 Deathstar wrote: No one in this thread is going to force anyone to do anything lol. korean bettors are not shaking in their boots because of a TL thread
Hey, we're up to at least, like, four threads at this point!
Betting in Korea is illegal, but still happens. That means that the korean police can't stop it. Illegal online betting kills eSports - Korean police kills eSports. Time to riot !
BTW, if match-fixing is so rampant in Korea, that means that other eSports are guilty of it too. I mean, SC2 is a midget compared to LoL, the betting interest there should be even bigger. The new BW tournaments shouldn't be out of question too.
I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
On April 16 2015 00:26 Pr0wler wrote: BTW, if match-fixing is so rampant in Korea, that means that other eSports are guilty of it too. I mean, SC2 is a midget compared to LoL, the betting interest there should be even bigger. The new BW tournaments shouldn't be out of question too.
I'd imagine fixing in a 1v1 game is more probable than in a team game.
At this point I don't know what I'd prefer : The game being cleaned of these matchfixes, and dying in Korea because of than, the world following soon after, or, Keeping the status-co, match-fixing spreading more and more but keeping SC2 Korea articifially alive till spectactor get bored of fixed games.
Anyway, with the evidence we got, it's pretty obvious the issue is here, but how do we solve it ? I don't know.
On April 16 2015 00:26 Pr0wler wrote: BTW, if match-fixing is so rampant in Korea, that means that other eSports are guilty of it too. I mean, SC2 is a midget compared to LoL, the betting interest there should be even bigger. The new BW tournaments shouldn't be out of question too.
I'd imagine fixing in a 1v1 game is more probable than in a team game.
IIRC there already was proven match fixing in korean lol a while ago. One of the players tried to suicide after it.
On April 16 2015 00:35 Faust852 wrote: At this point I don't know what I'd prefer : The game being cleaned of these matchfixes, and dying in Korea because of than, the world following soon after, or, Keeping the status-co, match-fixing spreading more and more but keeping SC2 Korea articifially alive till spectactor get bored of fixed games.
Anyway, with the evidence we got, it's pretty obvious the issue is here, but how do we solve it ? I don't know.
I think the right answer is obvious really. The true fan should never allow matchfixing no matter what. The later they take action against it the more likely it is for the game to die becaus of it.
I'd rather stop watching now after a big drama than watch how the scene dies slowly while it gets more and more corrupted and everyone involved knows it and does nothing. That would be fucking sad. There's always foreign championships... and other games I guess ><
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
and you don't understand what proof means. Obviously there is match fixing going on since it plagued everything (Champion's League and WC in football) but the amount of proof is so small that nothing gets done in any sport. Main problem is that betting is a cancer for any competitive activity.
No mate, you don't understand.
If I post next week's lottery numbers today and they turn out to be right, it's one hell of a lucky guess. But when it happens 2 weeks in a row, or 3 or 4 weeks, it becomes proof that I somehow know the lottery numbers beforehand and the lottery machine is rigged. This is what is happening in Korean sc2 scene.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
I know enough to realize that Creator wasn't a 25% underdog to win the series >.>
If the bets were made before the maps were public, then yes it is very suspicious and soulkey may be a match fixer.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
and you don't understand what proof means. Obviously there is match fixing going on since it plagued everything (Champion's League and WC in football) but the amount of proof is so small that nothing gets done in any sport. Main problem is that betting is a cancer for any competitive activity.
No mate, you don't understand.
If I post next week's lottery numbers today and they turn out to be right, it's one hell of a lucky guess. But when it happens 2 weeks in a row, or 3 or 4 weeks, it becomes proof that I somehow know the lottery numbers beforehand and the lottery machine is rigged. This is what is happening in Korean sc2 scene.
Wouldn't that be called evidence? English isn't my first language, though.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
Why would anyone bet on a match without map info. If you were smartly betting you would need map info or sc would be pointless to bet on.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
I know enough to realize that Creator wasn't a 25% underdog to win the series >.>
If the bets were made before the maps were public, then yes it is very suspicious and soulkey may be a match fixer.
I read in the other thread that the odds for the series were closer to 33% Creator, 66% Soulkey? Which is almost exactly what the Aligulac predictions say for the series as well. So if they were off, it wasn't by much, I would think.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
I know enough to realize that Creator wasn't a 25% underdog to win the series >.>
If the bets were made before the maps were public, then yes it is very suspicious and soulkey may be a match fixer.
Sorry for being sceptical about you knowing how much of the underdog Creator "really" was.
According to the most people it was like 100% victory for Soulkey, i heard someone even saying that 'why would anyone even bet on Creator taking one single map from Soulkey"?
I am pretty sure if we had the match fixed the other way the thread would be full of "Rofl no need to fix, Creator sucks anyway. EZ pz for Soulkey, he was much better anyway, i dont see any proof of a fix!" etc.
And FYI, 25% underdog for the bo5 series means Soulkey is is 64% fav to win on each map on average. Seems pretty reasonable to me, considering Creator's shape and results.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
Why would anyone bet on a match without map info. If you were smartly betting you would need map info or sc would be pointless to bet on.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
Why would anyone bet on a match without map info. If you were smartly betting you would need map info or sc would be pointless to bet on.
Good question. The answer is that winning 1 map has different odds than winning a bo5. If you don't know the map, it can be any map - so in other words you are betting on the assumption they are playing the "average map" of the map pool.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
Why would anyone bet on a match without map info. If you were smartly betting you would need map info or sc would be pointless to bet on.
You dont get to know the map info, because as far as i know the players ban/pick maps just before start of the match.
Also, you are greatly exaggerating the importance of maps. If you look at the stats there is a barely a tiny % of difference in winrates, its not a huge deal.
We are not in WoL beta anymore, its not like suddenly the map1 is Steps of War and everything is going out of a window when it comes to odds.
So if Soulkey is guilty, do you think it's possible that the reeeeallly long swarm host vs mech game was actually a "game will end after over X minutes" bet?
On April 16 2015 01:06 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: So if Soulkey is guilty, do you think it's possible that the reeeeallly long swarm host vs mech game was actually a "game will end after over X minutes" bet?
Seems really, really far-fetched, for the following reasons : (1) SK was on SKT1, and thus supposedly receiving a quite high salary ; (2) what happens if Reality 2-rax him or all-ins early? ; (3) it's much, much safer to all-in himself and GG out if he fails edit : wait, additionally that game ended up with a draw. Which made me think of, how are draws in SC2 handled by Pinnacle and the likes? You can't bet on a draw, right? What happens then there is one then? I guess it's the rematch that is taken into account?
Oh for fuck's sake. Can this community stop getting garbage thrown at them for 5 goddamn minutes please?
Is half the Korean scene being fucking fixed? Why the fuck should I keep giving a shit about any Korean player if half the games are thrown? I'm so fucking close to ditching the Korean scene in general, since apparenlty I'm watching WWE and not SSL and Proleague. And Soulkey of all players, it's not like he's starving and struggling for cash... can't trust anyone i guess. Fuck this shit
On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote: The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen: 1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash. 2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money. 3. Vast majority of people don't notice. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed but even most of them just enjoy the drama or don't care LOL
I think saying the vast majority of people don't notice is bullshit. Especially when threads like this get made and we're all made aware of it. In no fucking way is this good for the scene. Sure a few players make a few bucks but it makes the entire community look like a joke. The Korean scene is apparently all one big farce and nothing should be taken seriously.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
Why would anyone bet on a match without map info. If you were smartly betting you would need map info or sc would be pointless to bet on.
You dont get to know the map info, because as far as i know the players ban/pick maps just before start of the match.
Also, you are greatly exaggerating the importance of maps. If you look at the stats there is a barely a tiny % of difference in winrates, its not a huge deal.
We are not in WoL beta anymore, its not like suddenly the map1 is Steps of War and everything is going out of a window when it comes to odds.
You're right that the balance of the game doesn't make it impossible for any player to win on any map. But maps have a huge impact if you're trying to guess who will win, taking into account map specific strategies in the mu as well as player styles in relation to the map. What makes it unlikely that people look at the favourable odds for SK overall and say creator might try to all in game 1. This is pretty much as good a guess as you can have.
I wonder what does the Korean audience think? If they start getting suspicious kespa and the proteams are almost obligated to make a statement for them. also a suspision is not a proof people, take it easy
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
and you don't understand what proof means. Obviously there is match fixing going on since it plagued everything (Champion's League and WC in football) but the amount of proof is so small that nothing gets done in any sport. Main problem is that betting is a cancer for any competitive activity.
No mate, you don't understand.
If I post next week's lottery numbers today and they turn out to be right, it's one hell of a lucky guess. But when it happens 2 weeks in a row, or 3 or 4 weeks, it becomes proof that I somehow know the lottery numbers beforehand and the lottery machine is rigged. This is what is happening in Korean sc2 scene.
Wouldn't that be called evidence? English isn't my first language, though.
Game didn't look like a throw, bunch of stuff happened with the Cannon rush in the beginning and it came out pretty even. Couldn't it just be because Swarm Host just received a heavy nerf, Soulkey is a player that is very dependant on Swarm Hosts and King Sejong Station is together with Overgrowth THE Swarm Host maps?
Edit: Didn't realize maps was selected after the betting.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
Why would anyone bet on a match without map info. If you were smartly betting you would need map info or sc would be pointless to bet on.
You dont get to know the map info, because as far as i know the players ban/pick maps just before start of the match.
Also, you are greatly exaggerating the importance of maps. If you look at the stats there is a barely a tiny % of difference in winrates, its not a huge deal.
We are not in WoL beta anymore, its not like suddenly the map1 is Steps of War and everything is going out of a window when it comes to odds.
You're right that the balance of the game doesn't make it impossible for any player to win on any map. But maps have a huge impact if you're trying to guess who will win, taking into account map specific strategies in the mu as well as player styles in relation to the map. What makes it unlikely that people look at the favourable odds for SK overall and say creator might try to all in game 1. This is pretty much as good a guess as you can have.
The map discussion is not really relevant here, with the current tourney system's, the players get to pick/ban, which results in a balanced map pool for both parties. Additionally, no one can know who gets to pick/ban first.
Its not like in Cs:Go, where you can often see map right in the betting line. In Sc2 betting, map 1 is just map 1, you will almost never know which map will it be.
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
and you don't understand what proof means. Obviously there is match fixing going on since it plagued everything (Champion's League and WC in football) but the amount of proof is so small that nothing gets done in any sport. Main problem is that betting is a cancer for any competitive activity.
No mate, you don't understand.
If I post next week's lottery numbers today and they turn out to be right, it's one hell of a lucky guess. But when it happens 2 weeks in a row, or 3 or 4 weeks, it becomes proof that I somehow know the lottery numbers beforehand and the lottery machine is rigged. This is what is happening in Korean sc2 scene.
Wouldn't that be called evidence? English isn't my first language, though.
No, you can have several pieces of evidence, but no definite proof. To prove someone is guilty you need evidence, of which the only one availably is skewed odds - this does not give any proof of either player matchfixing. SK, Creator, both, or neither could be guilty of it as it stands. SK could have thrown the game, Creator could have been fed information somehow, either directly or by being given info from someone on SK's team beforehand, both could have agreed on how the game would be played out beforehand, or someone on SKT1 could have let betters know that SK slipped in the shower that morning or something. Right now it's suspicious, but no player can be implicated for anything.
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
and you don't understand what proof means. Obviously there is match fixing going on since it plagued everything (Champion's League and WC in football) but the amount of proof is so small that nothing gets done in any sport. Main problem is that betting is a cancer for any competitive activity.
No mate, you don't understand.
If I post next week's lottery numbers today and they turn out to be right, it's one hell of a lucky guess. But when it happens 2 weeks in a row, or 3 or 4 weeks, it becomes proof that I somehow know the lottery numbers beforehand and the lottery machine is rigged. This is what is happening in Korean sc2 scene.
Wouldn't that be called evidence? English isn't my first language, though.
No, you can have several pieces of evidence, but no definite proof. To prove someone is guilty you need evidence, of which the only one availably is skewed odds - this does not give any proof of either player matchfixing. SK, Creator, both, or neither could be guilty of it as it stands. SK could have thrown the game, Creator could have been fed information somehow, either directly or by being given info from someone on SK's team beforehand, both could have agreed on how the game would be played out beforehand, or someone on SKT1 could have let betters know that SK slipped in the shower that morning or something. Right now it's suspicious, but no player can be implicated for anything.
In Yorbons language it is (see link) I know the difference (but can be the same as well), the point is people tend to sidetrack a bit on this. It's not important
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
It happened before with Inno. Apparently it's a way to earn an easy extra buck; Throw the first map (match fix) but still win the series. Possibly karma caught up with SK on this one.
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
I bet people said the same thing about BW match fixing allegations.
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
That's because it is bullshit
I am not sure why you so emotionally invested in this, but all your posts very weak when it comes to arguments.
Its a battle of simple data vs emotions, and its clear on which side you are on.
Its not an issue of "trusting a bunch of gamblers", its trusting the data. The data is out there, its neutral, its just facts. You are choosing to ignore it, but it doesnt make it less true.
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
I bet people said the same thing about BW match fixing allegations.
Yes but they eventually had actual proof, not just betting lines
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
Why would the most popular BW zerg player (savior) ever fix matches? -.- There is no "he is so good and so rich he surely won't matchfix" logic. BW proved us that
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
That's because it is bullshit
I am not sure why you so emotionally invested in this, but all your posts very weak when it comes to arguments.
Its a battle of simple data vs emotions, and its clear on which side you are on.
Its not an issue of "trusting a bunch of gamblers", its trusting the data. The data is out there, its neutral, its just facts. You are choosing to ignore it, but it doesnt make it less true.
Your "data" is betting lines, that does not constitute evidence. Data isn't neutral when it is provided by someone with a staked interest in it. What the hell is wrong with you?
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
and you don't understand what proof means. Obviously there is match fixing going on since it plagued everything (Champion's League and WC in football) but the amount of proof is so small that nothing gets done in any sport. Main problem is that betting is a cancer for any competitive activity.
No mate, you don't understand.
If I post next week's lottery numbers today and they turn out to be right, it's one hell of a lucky guess. But when it happens 2 weeks in a row, or 3 or 4 weeks, it becomes proof that I somehow know the lottery numbers beforehand and the lottery machine is rigged. This is what is happening in Korean sc2 scene.
Wouldn't that be called evidence? English isn't my first language, though.
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
That's because it is bullshit
I am not sure why you so emotionally invested in this, but all your posts very weak when it comes to arguments.
Its a battle of simple data vs emotions, and its clear on which side you are on.
Its not an issue of "trusting a bunch of gamblers", its trusting the data. The data is out there, its neutral, its just facts. You are choosing to ignore it, but it doesnt make it less true.
Your "data" is betting lines, that does not constitute evidence. Data isn't neutral when it is provided by someone with a staked interest in it. What the hell is wrong with you?
Yes it is neutral. Unless you are implying that Pinnacle is fixing/faking the betting lines to void the match before it even started. Is that what you are implying? Are you serious?
Also, "a betting line does not constitute evidence" when it comes to matchfixing? Really?
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
That's because it is bullshit
I am not sure why you so emotionally invested in this, but all your posts very weak when it comes to arguments.
Its a battle of simple data vs emotions, and its clear on which side you are on.
Its not an issue of "trusting a bunch of gamblers", its trusting the data. The data is out there, its neutral, its just facts. You are choosing to ignore it, but it doesnt make it less true.
Your "data" is betting lines, that does not constitute evidence. Data isn't neutral when it is provided by someone with a staked interest in it. What the hell is wrong with you?
Yes it is neutral. Unless you are implying that Pinnacle is fixing/faking the betting lines to void the match before it even started. Is that what you are implying? Are you serious? You are a joke.
It seems, indeed, that that's exactly what he's implying. No matter though, the only thing that does is that important people open their mouths about this. So far, none did.. :/
On April 16 2015 01:58 digmouse wrote: At this point I'm not sure about the purpose of these kind of thread any more.
To let people know that they're watching a fixed sport, which some people actually don't care to do. Some like pro-wrestling, and others like actual competition
On April 16 2015 01:58 digmouse wrote: At this point I'm not sure about the purpose of these kind of thread any more.
it's true, the discussion doesn't seem to serve much purpose.
TL could do a weekly update on all the voided bets and suspicious games from that week. Or a page on liquipedia that keeps track of it. There could even be a leader board for the players involved in the most matches with voided bets.
Even if it's hard to proof who exactly is fixing*, the evidence undeniably shows that it's happening and it's happening frequently.
*Except MK. My reaction to that as I saw it live was: "He just intentionally threw the match ...", and that was before I knew about dodgy betting behaviour.
On April 16 2015 01:58 digmouse wrote: At this point I'm not sure about the purpose of these kind of thread any more.
it's true, the discussion doesn't seem to serve much purpose.
TL could do a weekly update on all the voided bets and suspicious games from that week. Or a page on liquipedia that keeps track of it. There could even be a leader board for the players involved in the most matches with voided bets.
MarineKing can finally be the best in Korea at something
On April 16 2015 01:58 digmouse wrote: At this point I'm not sure about the purpose of these kind of thread any more.
To let people know that they're watching a fixed sport, which some people actually don't care to do. Some like pro-wrestling, and others like actual competition
Sure, maybe, but are we really getting solid evidence/reasoning, constructive discussion or whatever in here now?
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
That's because it is bullshit
I am not sure why you so emotionally invested in this, but all your posts very weak when it comes to arguments.
Its a battle of simple data vs emotions, and its clear on which side you are on.
Its not an issue of "trusting a bunch of gamblers", its trusting the data. The data is out there, its neutral, its just facts. You are choosing to ignore it, but it doesnt make it less true.
Your "data" is betting lines, that does not constitute evidence. Data isn't neutral when it is provided by someone with a staked interest in it. What the hell is wrong with you?
Yes it is neutral. Unless you are implying that Pinnacle is fixing/faking the betting lines to void the match before it even started. Is that what you are implying? Are you serious?
Also, "a betting line does not constitute evidence" when it comes to matchfixing? Really?
You are a joke, or a troll.
Sorry but, these "data" are not facts, you didnt collect them yourself, you dont even know how they are collected, they are just presented to you, and you, because of reasons unknown to me, believe in them. the only fact here is that you believe these data to be true, you dont know anything.
a bit of reservation would do you pretty good.
of course all this doesnt mean the data isnt correct. and you are of course free to draw any conclusion you want from it. but lashing out to people who say these data are maybe not neutral, is i think far more than you should ever do, when all your information is just a press release of a gambling site.
On April 16 2015 01:58 digmouse wrote: At this point I'm not sure about the purpose of these kind of thread any more.
To let people know that they're watching a fixed sport, which some people actually don't care to do. Some like pro-wrestling, and others like actual competition
Sure, maybe, but are we really getting solid evidence/reasoning, constructive discussion or whatever in here now?
No, but do most threads have solid reasoning and discussion? Not really. I'm not sure if it's better to sweep this under the rug and just stop watching Korean tournaments for good or publicize this as much as possible, but honestly people should know they're favorite players are taking bribes. If I were a big Soulkey fan I'd like to know to stop doing that
On April 16 2015 01:58 digmouse wrote: At this point I'm not sure about the purpose of these kind of thread any more.
it's true, the discussion doesn't seem to serve much purpose.
TL could do a weekly update on all the voided bets and suspicious games from that week. Or a page on liquipedia that keeps track of it. There could even be a leader board for the players involved in the most matches with voided bets.
The purpose is to educate as much people as possible.
Problem is, community is still being treated as clueless sheeps.
I am sorry but when Wolf says on air that "its best we all just forget about it" after the most blatant case of the matchfix - its pretty freaking offensive to any intellegent viewer out there.
On April 16 2015 01:58 digmouse wrote: At this point I'm not sure about the purpose of these kind of thread any more.
To let people know that they're watching a fixed sport, which some people actually don't care to do. Some like pro-wrestling, and others like actual competition
Sure, maybe, but are we really getting solid evidence/reasoning, constructive discussion or whatever in here now?
Just a bunch of rabble rabble usually.
The alternative involves accusations of "coverup" though.
On April 16 2015 01:58 digmouse wrote: At this point I'm not sure about the purpose of these kind of thread any more.
To let people know that they're watching a fixed sport, which some people actually don't care to do. Some like pro-wrestling, and others like actual competition
Sure, maybe, but are we really getting solid evidence/reasoning, constructive discussion or whatever in here now?
Just a bunch of rabble rabble usually.
The alternative involves accusations of "coverup" though.
:/
I don't see how closing discussion on something that basically invalidates the entire scene is anything but a cover-up.
On April 16 2015 01:58 digmouse wrote: At this point I'm not sure about the purpose of these kind of thread any more.
it's true, the discussion doesn't seem to serve much purpose.
TL could do a weekly update on all the voided bets and suspicious games from that week. Or a page on liquipedia that keeps track of it. There could even be a leader board for the players involved in the most matches with voided bets.
The purpose is to educate as much people as possible.
Problem is, community is still being treated as clueless sheeps.
I am sorry but when Wolf says on air that "its best we all just forget about it" after the most blatant case of the matchfix - its pretty freaking offensive to any intellegent viewer out there.
I'm surprised wolf even commented on it on air, I really doubt his employer approves of that.
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
That's because it is bullshit
I am not sure why you so emotionally invested in this, but all your posts very weak when it comes to arguments.
Its a battle of simple data vs emotions, and its clear on which side you are on.
Its not an issue of "trusting a bunch of gamblers", its trusting the data. The data is out there, its neutral, its just facts. You are choosing to ignore it, but it doesnt make it less true.
Your "data" is betting lines, that does not constitute evidence. Data isn't neutral when it is provided by someone with a staked interest in it. What the hell is wrong with you?
Yes it is neutral. Unless you are implying that Pinnacle is fixing/faking the betting lines to void the match before it even started. Is that what you are implying? Are you serious?
Also, "a betting line does not constitute evidence" when it comes to matchfixing? Really?
You are a joke, or a troll.
Sorry but, these "data" are not facts, you didnt collect them yourself, you dont even know how they are collected, they are just presented to you, and you, because of reasons unknown to me, believe in them. the only fact here is that you believe these data to be true, you dont know anything.
a bit of reservation would do you pretty good.
of course all this doesnt mean the data isnt correct. and you are of course free to draw any conclusion you want from it. but lashing out to people who say these data are maybe not neutral, is i think far more than you should ever do, when all your information is just a press release of a gambling site.
THIS^^^^
No one is saying that there isn't matchfixing. LITERALLY NO ONE. The point is there is no solid proof that any of what has been called matchfixing is. You are making accusations that are damning to peoples careers and lives and you lose nothing by doing that while they stand to lose EVERYTHING
the data may be correct, but alone it means nothing
On April 16 2015 01:58 digmouse wrote: At this point I'm not sure about the purpose of these kind of thread any more.
To let people know that they're watching a fixed sport, which some people actually don't care to do. Some like pro-wrestling, and others like actual competition
Sure, maybe, but are we really getting solid evidence/reasoning, constructive discussion or whatever in here now?
Just a bunch of rabble rabble usually.
The alternative involves accusations of "coverup" though.
:/
I don't see how closing discussion on something that basically invalidates the entire scene is anything but a cover-up.
It's fine when it's a discussion, SGTK. The problem is what it usually devolves to.
On April 16 2015 00:33 royalroadweed wrote: I'm not sure how this constitutes as proof that soulkey was match fixing. Maps have a huge impact on bo1s in sc2. So I don't its that unusual to bet that x player will win on x map but not win the series. For example, if Cure was playing herO in a bo3 and the first map is catellena, I don't think it would be strange for people to bet that cure wins the first map but loses the series.
I'll concur that I don't know PvZ well enough to determine if Protoss is that favored enough on King Sejong Station with zergs having nerfed swarmhosts for Creator to be a 3 to 1 favourite.
We are talking about 25% underdog to win a series becoming 75% favorite to win map1. I am not sure how good you are with the %'s and stuff, but implying that blizzard's maps are THAT imbalanced is kind of silly.
Also, the betting was done way before the map info became availible, i am pretty sure.
Why would anyone bet on a match without map info. If you were smartly betting you would need map info or sc would be pointless to bet on.
You dont get to know the map info, because as far as i know the players ban/pick maps just before start of the match.
Also, you are greatly exaggerating the importance of maps. If you look at the stats there is a barely a tiny % of difference in winrates, its not a huge deal.
We are not in WoL beta anymore, its not like suddenly the map1 is Steps of War and everything is going out of a window when it comes to odds.
You're right that the balance of the game doesn't make it impossible for any player to win on any map. But maps have a huge impact if you're trying to guess who will win, taking into account map specific strategies in the mu as well as player styles in relation to the map. What makes it unlikely that people look at the favourable odds for SK overall and say creator might try to all in game 1. This is pretty much as good a guess as you can have.
The map discussion is not really relevant here, with the current tourney system's, the players get to pick/ban, which results in a balanced map pool for both parties. Additionally, no one can know who gets to pick/ban first.
Its not like in Cs:Go, where you can often see map right in the betting line. In Sc2 betting, map 1 is just map 1, you will almost never know which map will it be.
I know, what I'm saying is without map info it makes it a less informed guess. All you have as someone betting is : soulkey vs creator bo5, you then look at the odds that soulkey is favourite for the series and then its not unreasonable to guess that creator would all in map 1
One productive thing that has come out of repeated threads is that more and more people are at least willing to open their minds to the possibility that this is happening. In the first thread, it felt like 75% of the posts were something along the lines of "I know nothing about betting, but bettors are evil and their evidence is presented in a way that I don't fully understand so I disagree with it" whereas only about a quarter of the posts in this thread are like this. (I'm being partially facetious but it is really progress)...
On that note, it really is strange to me how incredibly untrusting many people on here are of people from the betting community and the information they provide as it relates to SC2. The idea that so many people here buy into the stereotype that all bettors are addicted to gambling, all betting sites are shady and just after their own interests, etc. etc. is crazy, considering that we're all here on a website discussing people who devote their lives to playing video games. It's no secret that we deal with many of the same or similar preconceived notions, that people who play video games all day are lazy, shut-ins, addicted to video games, and so on. Clearly, we know how frustrating and untrue those stereotypes can be. So you would think that we as a community would be able to look past preconceived notions of a similar community more easily than most. It doesn't feel like that though.
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
That's because it is bullshit
I am not sure why you so emotionally invested in this, but all your posts very weak when it comes to arguments.
Its a battle of simple data vs emotions, and its clear on which side you are on.
Its not an issue of "trusting a bunch of gamblers", its trusting the data. The data is out there, its neutral, its just facts. You are choosing to ignore it, but it doesnt make it less true.
Your "data" is betting lines, that does not constitute evidence. Data isn't neutral when it is provided by someone with a staked interest in it. What the hell is wrong with you?
Yes it is neutral. Unless you are implying that Pinnacle is fixing/faking the betting lines to void the match before it even started. Is that what you are implying? Are you serious?
Also, "a betting line does not constitute evidence" when it comes to matchfixing? Really?
You are a joke, or a troll.
of course all this doesnt mean the data isnt correct. and you are of course free to draw any conclusion you want from it. but lashing out to people who say these data are maybe not neutral, is i think far more than you should ever do, when all your information is just a press release of a gambling site.
Its not a "press release of a gambling site", its the movement of the betting lines. The info was publicly availible to anyone and updated in real time. People observed it.
There is no rational reason to assume that the movement is not legit. If you do - then please provide atleast a reasonable hypothetis on why on earth Pinnacle would "fake" the movement of the betting lines to justify a void of the match before its even started.
Unless someone will do that - its more than reasonable to trust their data.
On April 15 2015 22:06 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Until you show me money being put in players hands, and/or conversations recorded/logged you don't have real proof, imo. Nothing that would stand up to any sort of legal matter involving accusing a player of matchfixing.
So you think Aaron Hernandez should be free, right? All the evidence was circumstantial.
You don't need to show that a guy showed up at the bank, pulled out a gun, told the teller he wanted money, then took the money and ran to prove he robbed the bank. Otherwise, big banks and the mafia would never go to jail.
At this point kespa,gsl,whoever needs to put a year/even life time ban on players that are doing this. Sadly I don't think they care or are taking there sweet time to gather all the evidence before they go and do something as drastic as a ban,which if they are then I'll understand, if not SMH. Honestly this is going to be sad to say cause I'm a huge fan of MKP but he needs a ban to be made an example same with SK if true didn't watch the games. Really something should be done but bitching on TL will do nothing.
On April 16 2015 01:29 sitromit wrote: This sounds like bullshit to me, sorry.
Soulkey is a player who has a legitimate chance at a high finish when he's on form. Why would he throw away not only his chance to get into Code S, but also at making WCS top 16 and going to Blizzcon?
That's because it is bullshit
I am not sure why you so emotionally invested in this, but all your posts very weak when it comes to arguments.
Its a battle of simple data vs emotions, and its clear on which side you are on.
Its not an issue of "trusting a bunch of gamblers", its trusting the data. The data is out there, its neutral, its just facts. You are choosing to ignore it, but it doesnt make it less true.
Your "data" is betting lines, that does not constitute evidence. Data isn't neutral when it is provided by someone with a staked interest in it. What the hell is wrong with you?
Yes it is neutral. Unless you are implying that Pinnacle is fixing/faking the betting lines to void the match before it even started. Is that what you are implying? Are you serious?
Also, "a betting line does not constitute evidence" when it comes to matchfixing? Really?
You are a joke, or a troll.
Sorry but, these "data" are not facts, you didnt collect them yourself, you dont even know how they are collected, they are just presented to you, and you, because of reasons unknown to me, believe in them. the only fact here is that you believe these data to be true, you dont know anything.
a bit of reservation would do you pretty good.
of course all this doesnt mean the data isnt correct. and you are of course free to draw any conclusion you want from it. but lashing out to people who say these data are maybe not neutral, is i think far more than you should ever do, when all your information is just a press release of a gambling site.
THIS^^^^
No one is saying that there isn't matchfixing. LITERALLY NO ONE. The point is there is no solid proof that any of what has been called matchfixing is. You are making accusations that are damning to peoples careers and lives and you lose nothing by doing that while they stand to lose EVERYTHING
the data may be correct, but alone it means nothing
The data means a hell of a lot, the movement was clear and observed by multiple people. But please continue to keep your head in the sand and keep using the "LA LA LA NOT LISTENING" defence
On April 16 2015 02:30 starslayer wrote: At this point kespa,gsl,whoever needs to put a year/even life time ban on players that are doing this. Sadly I don't think they care or are taking there sweet time to gather all the evidence before they go and do something as drastic as a ban,which if they are then I'll understand, if not SMH. Honestly this is going to be sad to say cause I'm a huge fan of MKP but he needs a ban to be made an example same with SK if true didn't watch the games. Really something should be done but bitching on TL will do nothing.
I wouldn't mind a temporary ban only for these 5 cases. So forgiveness this one time, just to get them to talk.
On April 15 2015 22:06 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Until you show me money being put in players hands, and/or conversations recorded/logged you don't have real proof, imo. Nothing that would stand up to any sort of legal matter involving accusing a player of matchfixing.
So you think Aaron Hernandez should be free, right? All the evidence was circumstantial.
You don't need to show that a guy showed up at the bank, pulled out a gun, told the teller he wanted money, then took the money and ran to prove he robbed the bank. Otherwise, big banks and the mafia would never go to jail.
The point is there is no solid proof that any of what has been called matchfixing is.
1. What proof is "solid" in this case, in your opinion?
2. Did you see a MKP-Byul match, do you think that the the betting line + the way the match looked is enough to say that match was 99% fixed?
I suspect that "solid proof" in your opinion would be something like skype logs of a player accepting the bribe.
In this case, the only way to get a solid proof is pressure the Kespa to investigate the accused players. Its not going to magically appear to us out of nowhere.
"Just forgetting about it" and "stopping accusing players" while waiting for this "solid evidence" would never get us anywhere, you will just keep seeing bets getting voided every week. I am not really ok with this.
On April 15 2015 22:06 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Until you show me money being put in players hands, and/or conversations recorded/logged you don't have real proof, imo. Nothing that would stand up to any sort of legal matter involving accusing a player of matchfixing.
So you think Aaron Hernandez should be free, right? All the evidence was circumstantial.
You don't need to show that a guy showed up at the bank, pulled out a gun, told the teller he wanted money, then took the money and ran to prove he robbed the bank. Otherwise, big banks and the mafia would never go to jail.
Uh, yes you fucking do
until now i thought that you're just really angry for whatever reason and are too emotionally invested to discuss anything rationally
but with this post you have proven that you don't have the slightest single clue what the fuck you are talking about.
On April 16 2015 02:27 Darthsanta13 wrote: One productive thing that has come out of repeated threads is that more and more people are at least willing to open their minds to the possibility that this is happening. In the first thread, it felt like 75% of the posts were something along the lines of "I know nothing about betting, but bettors are evil and their evidence is presented in a way that I don't fully understand so I disagree with it" whereas only about a quarter of the posts in this thread are like this. (I'm being partially facetious but it is really progress)...
On that note, it really is strange to me how incredibly untrusting many people on here are of people from the betting community and the information they provide as it relates to SC2. The idea that so many people here buy into the stereotype that all bettors are addicted to gambling, all betting sites are shady and just after their own interests, etc. etc. is crazy, considering that we're all here on a website discussing people who devote their lives to playing video games. It's no secret that we deal with many of the same or similar preconceived notions, that people who play video games all day are lazy, shut-ins, addicted to video games, and so on. Clearly, we know how frustrating and untrue those stereotypes can be. So you would think that we as a community would be able to look past preconceived notions of a similar community more easily than most. It doesn't feel like that though.
Well, do you honestly find that surprising when bettors are the ones behind matchfixing to start with? It's quite ironic to say people should be more trusting about people betting on the game that's under scrutiny due to betting gone wrong. ~~
On April 15 2015 22:06 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Until you show me money being put in players hands, and/or conversations recorded/logged you don't have real proof, imo. Nothing that would stand up to any sort of legal matter involving accusing a player of matchfixing.
So you think Aaron Hernandez should be free, right? All the evidence was circumstantial.
You don't need to show that a guy showed up at the bank, pulled out a gun, told the teller he wanted money, then took the money and ran to prove he robbed the bank. Otherwise, big banks and the mafia would never go to jail.
Uh, yes you fucking do
until now i thought that you're just really angry for whatever reason and are too emotionally invested to discuss anything rationally
but with this post you have proven that you don't have the slightest single clue what the fuck you are talking about.
In a court of law you have to prove something has been done to find someone guilty in your example. You would need witnesses or evidence to put the person at the place of the crime. If you dont have this you need physical evidence such as fingerprints on a gun, or video footage. You then need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that everything you say happened, happened. All I have proven is that I understand basic procedure. You however are just looking for someone who doesn't agree with you to attack.
On April 16 2015 02:27 Darthsanta13 wrote: One productive thing that has come out of repeated threads is that more and more people are at least willing to open their minds to the possibility that this is happening. In the first thread, it felt like 75% of the posts were something along the lines of "I know nothing about betting, but bettors are evil and their evidence is presented in a way that I don't fully understand so I disagree with it" whereas only about a quarter of the posts in this thread are like this. (I'm being partially facetious but it is really progress)...
On that note, it really is strange to me how incredibly untrusting many people on here are of people from the betting community and the information they provide as it relates to SC2. The idea that so many people here buy into the stereotype that all bettors are addicted to gambling, all betting sites are shady and just after their own interests, etc. etc. is crazy, considering that we're all here on a website discussing people who devote their lives to playing video games. It's no secret that we deal with many of the same or similar preconceived notions, that people who play video games all day are lazy, shut-ins, addicted to video games, and so on. Clearly, we know how frustrating and untrue those stereotypes can be. So you would think that we as a community would be able to look past preconceived notions of a similar community more easily than most. It doesn't feel like that though.
Well, do you honestly find that surprising when bettors are the ones behind matchfixing to start with? It's quite ironic to say people should be more trusting about people betting on the game that's under scrutiny due to betting gone wrong. ~~
That's not fair though, there are bad apples in every group and you're implicating an entire group based on the actions of some individuals. Swoopae or Pinnacle are not involved in any shady business at all. But people still think that betting==evil and disregard everything they have to say and question their motives.
I should mention too that by your logic we shouldn't be trusting any progamers either because some progamers are involved in match fixing.
but lets be honest, even if these betting lines give a strong suspicion, at the end there has to be more than that ?
or is it now in the hands of pinnacles betting alogrithmes who gets an instant ban from SC2 or not?
I totally understand what that means for the sport and the scene, SC2 is not the only sport where match fixing is happening. but at the end you need at least something like a money transfer, or someone who talks ect., SOMETHING more than a betting line.
its not hard for me to believe this match was fixed. but what are the consequences? would you go as far as banning someone from all tournaments forever, because you saw a betting line?
On April 16 2015 02:27 Darthsanta13 wrote: One productive thing that has come out of repeated threads is that more and more people are at least willing to open their minds to the possibility that this is happening. In the first thread, it felt like 75% of the posts were something along the lines of "I know nothing about betting, but bettors are evil and their evidence is presented in a way that I don't fully understand so I disagree with it" whereas only about a quarter of the posts in this thread are like this. (I'm being partially facetious but it is really progress)...
On that note, it really is strange to me how incredibly untrusting many people on here are of people from the betting community and the information they provide as it relates to SC2. The idea that so many people here buy into the stereotype that all bettors are addicted to gambling, all betting sites are shady and just after their own interests, etc. etc. is crazy, considering that we're all here on a website discussing people who devote their lives to playing video games. It's no secret that we deal with many of the same or similar preconceived notions, that people who play video games all day are lazy, shut-ins, addicted to video games, and so on. Clearly, we know how frustrating and untrue those stereotypes can be. So you would think that we as a community would be able to look past preconceived notions of a similar community more easily than most. It doesn't feel like that though.
Well, do you honestly find that surprising when bettors are the ones behind matchfixing to start with? It's quite ironic to say people should be more trusting about people betting on the game that's under scrutiny due to betting gone wrong. ~~
That's not fair though, there are bad apples in every group and you're implicating an entire group based on the actions of some individuals. Swoopae or Pinnacle are not involved in any shady business at all. But people still think that betting==evil and disregard everything they have to say and question their motives.
I should mention too that by your logic we shouldn't be trusting any progamers either because some progamers are involved in match fixing.
Gambling is a business based on taking advantage of people. That is simply a fact. A lot of businesses are run that way and that's all well and good. There is nothing wrong with people being skeptical of releases from businesses who operate on morally shaky ground. That's human nature.
EDIT: No one is going to take the point of that, they're going to argue that "morally shaky ground" is my own opinion. But you need to realize people are not going to believe gamblers, plain and simple.
On April 16 2015 02:27 Darthsanta13 wrote: One productive thing that has come out of repeated threads is that more and more people are at least willing to open their minds to the possibility that this is happening. In the first thread, it felt like 75% of the posts were something along the lines of "I know nothing about betting, but bettors are evil and their evidence is presented in a way that I don't fully understand so I disagree with it" whereas only about a quarter of the posts in this thread are like this. (I'm being partially facetious but it is really progress)...
On that note, it really is strange to me how incredibly untrusting many people on here are of people from the betting community and the information they provide as it relates to SC2. The idea that so many people here buy into the stereotype that all bettors are addicted to gambling, all betting sites are shady and just after their own interests, etc. etc. is crazy, considering that we're all here on a website discussing people who devote their lives to playing video games. It's no secret that we deal with many of the same or similar preconceived notions, that people who play video games all day are lazy, shut-ins, addicted to video games, and so on. Clearly, we know how frustrating and untrue those stereotypes can be. So you would think that we as a community would be able to look past preconceived notions of a similar community more easily than most. It doesn't feel like that though.
Well, do you honestly find that surprising when bettors are the ones behind matchfixing to start with? It's quite ironic to say people should be more trusting about people betting on the game that's under scrutiny due to betting gone wrong. ~~
That's not fair though, there are bad apples in every group and you're implicating an entire group based on the actions of some individuals. Swoopae or Pinnacle are not involved in any shady business at all. But people still think that betting==evil and disregard everything they have to say and question their motives.
I should mention too that by your logic we shouldn't be trusting any progamers either because some progamers are involved in match fixing.
In no way did I say that all bettors are involved in matchfixing. But without people betting on the game, you wouldn't have matchfixing. There's bound to be distrust against the group of people that instigate it, no matter if it's only a few bad apples. I pointed out the irony that we should trust people involved in betting when the betting sites are the prime reason matchfixing exists in the first place.
On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote: The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen: 1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash. 2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money. 3. Vast majority of people don't notice. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed but even most of them just enjoy the drama or don't care LOL
I wonder if TL is going to take a stand in this? I'm quite sure R1ch for example understands what is going on just based on the betting lines, even if he has no background in gambling he seems to be quite analytical person.
I'd like to know if TL's stand is "we're not going to comment, because we don't know what's going on" or "our site will die along with the scene if we speak our minds, so we keep quiet"? I think it's a legit question also to ask, although for obvious reasons you can't really expect answers.
On April 16 2015 02:53 phil.ipp wrote: but lets be honest, even if these betting lines give a strong suspicion, at the end there has to be more than that ?
or is it now in the hands of pinnacles betting alogrithmes who gets an instant ban from SC2 or not?
I totally understand what that means for the sport and the scene, SC2 is not the only sport where match fixing is happening. but at the end you need at least something like a money transfer, or someone who talks ect., SOMETHING more than a betting line.
its not hard for me to believe this match was fixed. but what are the consequences? would you go as far as banning someone from all tournaments forever, because you saw a betting line?
you don't get it.
i didn't hear anybody say that somebody should be instantly banned because of the line movement
but the line movement is a very strong indication that there is match-fixing going on if you know anything about statistics
is that enough to ban players? No.
But is that enough to start an investigation that could possibly provide the sort of evidence that people like you would be content with (chat logs, confessions, money transfer data...)? Yes.
i think the majority of people here are more or less convinced that there is fixing but the real tragedy is that there seems not to be ANY REACTION.
Gambling is a business based on taking advantage of people. That is simply a fact. A lot of businesses are run that way and that's all well and good. There is nothing wrong with people being skeptical of releases from businesses who operate on morally shaky ground. That's human nature.
EDIT: No one is going to take the point of that, they're going to argue that "morally shaky ground" is my own opinion. But you need to realize people are not going to believe gamblers, plain and simple.
please, ffs, stop talking, it is getting unbearable.
i'm off, you are most definitely not worth that i get banned but that is what would happen next if i said what's on my mind.
On April 16 2015 03:04 Jarree wrote: I wonder if TL is going to take a stand in this? I'm quite sure R1ch for example understands what is going on just based on the betting lines, even if he has no background in gambling he seems to be quite analytical person.
I'd like to know if TL's stand is "we're not going to comment, because we don't know what's going on" or "our site will die along with the scene if we speak our minds, so we keep quiet"? I think it's a legit question also to ask, although for obvious reasons you can't really expect answers.
I don't speak for TL, but I will use my experience on TL during the BW match fixing scandal. TL is not responsible for what happened in Korea during the BW scandal and speaking out against it would have no effect, therefore it remained a discussion among its users and nothing more. Presently, the hand of TL does extend further in SC2 because we have a professional team in the sport unlike during the Brood War Era. Honestly, I don't believe TL needs to speak out or is thinking "our site will die". The voice of TL has always been through its users. This forum is a platform for all viewers to become vocal about what goes on in the competitive scene. Teamliquid is providing that for you. If you want paid staff to have an official stance then I recommend you go to TLPro and write a well thought out and persuasive plea to them. TL is a culmination of its users and it's voice is most powerful when it's users speak up with well thought out and informed arguments for everyone to read.
On April 16 2015 03:16 supernovamaniac wrote: Shit,
I'm out of popcorn. Someone help me?
Not big enough.
btw, TL's voice is usually opinions from its users, but there are times where mod posts/notes are just too biased that it's hard to say that TL doesn't have voice of its own.
On April 16 2015 03:16 supernovamaniac wrote: Shit,
I'm out of popcorn. Someone help me?
Not big enough.
btw, TL's voice is usually opinions from its users, but there are times where mod posts/notes are just too biased that it's hard to say that TL doesn't have voice of its own.
What you're saying is we need the modding equivalent to chill's casting.
On April 16 2015 02:27 Darthsanta13 wrote: One productive thing that has come out of repeated threads is that more and more people are at least willing to open their minds to the possibility that this is happening. In the first thread, it felt like 75% of the posts were something along the lines of "I know nothing about betting, but bettors are evil and their evidence is presented in a way that I don't fully understand so I disagree with it" whereas only about a quarter of the posts in this thread are like this. (I'm being partially facetious but it is really progress)...
On that note, it really is strange to me how incredibly untrusting many people on here are of people from the betting community and the information they provide as it relates to SC2. The idea that so many people here buy into the stereotype that all bettors are addicted to gambling, all betting sites are shady and just after their own interests, etc. etc. is crazy, considering that we're all here on a website discussing people who devote their lives to playing video games. It's no secret that we deal with many of the same or similar preconceived notions, that people who play video games all day are lazy, shut-ins, addicted to video games, and so on. Clearly, we know how frustrating and untrue those stereotypes can be. So you would think that we as a community would be able to look past preconceived notions of a similar community more easily than most. It doesn't feel like that though.
Well, do you honestly find that surprising when bettors are the ones behind matchfixing to start with? It's quite ironic to say people should be more trusting about people betting on the game that's under scrutiny due to betting gone wrong. ~~
That's not fair though, there are bad apples in every group and you're implicating an entire group based on the actions of some individuals. Swoopae or Pinnacle are not involved in any shady business at all. But people still think that betting==evil and disregard everything they have to say and question their motives.
I should mention too that by your logic we shouldn't be trusting any progamers either because some progamers are involved in match fixing.
Gambling is a business based on taking advantage of people. That is simply a fact. A lot of businesses are run that way and that's all well and good. There is nothing wrong with people being skeptical of releases from businesses who operate on morally shaky ground. That's human nature.
EDIT: No one is going to take the point of that, they're going to argue that "morally shaky ground" is my own opinion. But you need to realize people are not going to believe gamblers, plain and simple.
What I'm trying to get at is that people should open their minds and think about whether this really is "morally shaky ground" or not in the first place. I question whether it's fair to characterize gambling as a business based on taking advantage of people. It's true that gambling is a zero-sum game with winners and losers, but that's also true of any form of competition. I don't gamble but I think that a lot of people who do would argue that they don't do it to take advantage of other people, but instead to compete against the general public, to prove that they are more capable of predicting winners and losers than anyone else. There's certainly a whole lot of skill that goes into that, and I think it's unfair to characterize people who enjoy that pastime as morally shaky.
I agree that there are some gambling businesses that deserve the "morally shaky label" you give them, but I think writing off the entire idea of gambling and everyone involved as morally shaky is unfair.
On April 16 2015 03:16 supernovamaniac wrote: Shit,
I'm out of popcorn. Someone help me?
Not big enough.
btw, TL's voice is usually opinions from its users, but there are times where mod posts/notes are just too biased that it's hard to say that TL doesn't have voice of its own.
What you're saying is we need the modding equivalent to chill's casting.
If there is suspicious betting and the player (who was betted on) actually wins the match, do they void the bets then? Do we know if this has ever happened?
On April 16 2015 03:04 Jarree wrote: I wonder if TL is going to take a stand in this? I'm quite sure R1ch for example understands what is going on just based on the betting lines, even if he has no background in gambling he seems to be quite analytical person.
I'd like to know if TL's stand is "we're not going to comment, because we don't know what's going on" or "our site will die along with the scene if we speak our minds, so we keep quiet"? I think it's a legit question also to ask, although for obvious reasons you can't really expect answers.
TL staff don't have a shared opinion to the extent where we could "take a stand" on this matter, and even if we did I don't think we would. I know I definitely wouldn't.
On April 16 2015 03:31 cheekymonkey wrote: If there is suspicious betting and the player (who was betted on) actually wins the match, do they void the bets then? Do we know if this has ever happened?
Todays bet was voided before the match was played. Not sure about (all) the others
Edit: They were probably all voided before the match. The voiding is based on suspicious line movements and I take it the betting is closed before the matches actually start.
Well we will have our damn dead game sure enough if this shit doesn't stop, god it makes me so sick. Esf teams not having money thus forcing b level pros on their teams to do matchfixing is just so obvious yet there's not that much you can actually do about it is there the money ain't gonna appear out of nowhere and without money they might as well all retire
On April 16 2015 03:04 Jarree wrote: I wonder if TL is going to take a stand in this? I'm quite sure R1ch for example understands what is going on just based on the betting lines, even if he has no background in gambling he seems to be quite analytical person.
I'd like to know if TL's stand is "we're not going to comment, because we don't know what's going on" or "our site will die along with the scene if we speak our minds, so we keep quiet"? I think it's a legit question also to ask, although for obvious reasons you can't really expect answers.
TL staff don't have a shared opinion to the extent where we could "take a stand" on this matter, and even if we did I don't think we would. I know I definitely wouldn't.
I don't understand why people are so quick to blame non-Kespa teams for the matchfixing. Like, over half of the matches in question have involved a player on a Kespa team...
Also, 14 pages in, and it's literally been the same thing that's been stated in the previous threads. This is just becoming sort of silly. Please, someone, make a compilation thread!
Pretty sure this website is just doing this shit for publicity for their website. Honestly, before this fad of voiding bets, out of nowhere, but now consistently.. I had never ever heard of these people in our community. I really think they are just doing this to generate awareness of their site within the sc2 community.
On April 16 2015 03:48 Lumi wrote: Pretty sure this website is just doing this shit for publicity for their website. Honestly, before this fad of voiding bets, out of nowhere, but now consistently.. I had never ever heard of these people in our community. I really think they are just doing this to generate awareness of their site within the sc2 community.
WOAH WOAH WOAH!!! you can't say that! That's an opposing opinion that makes sense. Prepare for the rage.
On April 16 2015 03:48 Lumi wrote: Pretty sure this website is just doing this shit for publicity for their website. Honestly, before this fad of voiding bets, out of nowhere, but now consistently.. I had never ever heard of these people in our community. I really think they are just doing this to generate awareness of their site within the sc2 community.
WOAH WOAH WOAH!!! you can't say that! That's an opposing opinion that makes sense. Prepare for the rage.
Although I'm not intending to rage, there is no word in that post that makes sense to me. How would you know what lumi wrote, is the case? Plus, threads like this don't really reflect positively on pinnacle at all for me. It makes me stay away from gambling. Or are you referring to other companies? Kespa?...
On April 16 2015 03:48 Lumi wrote: Pretty sure this website is just doing this shit for publicity for their website. Honestly, before this fad of voiding bets, out of nowhere, but now consistently.. I had never ever heard of these people in our community. I really think they are just doing this to generate awareness of their site within the sc2 community.
Or, they are just informing the world that they have voided bets every time they do it, as they should. Them getting publicity as a result could very well create interest and lead more people into betting, illegal or not, thus increasing the chance of voided bets on pinaccle.
On April 16 2015 03:48 Lumi wrote: Pretty sure this website is just doing this shit for publicity for their website. Honestly, before this fad of voiding bets, out of nowhere, but now consistently.. I had never ever heard of these people in our community. I really think they are just doing this to generate awareness of their site within the sc2 community.
WOAH WOAH WOAH!!! you can't say that! That's an opposing opinion that makes sense. Prepare for the rage.
Although I'm not intending to rage, there is no word in that post that makes sense to me. How would you know what lumi wrote, is the case? Plus, threads like this don't really reflect positively on pinnacle at all for me. It makes me stay away from gambling. Or are you referring to other companies? Kespa?...
You're responding to someone who agrees with a poster who is "pretty sure" Pinnacle is doing this for publicity reasons based on no evidence at all while, at the same time, refuses to acknowledge any evidence regarding the match fixing.
I like the suggestion for the sticky for all 5 cases, it's so tiresome to constantly re explain everything to people new to the topic.
For god's sake I hope Kespa takes this seriously. We could be seeing Savior-level stuff here and there's so far no word at all? Did they not learn their lesson from last time?? (my understanding was that pressure and investigation from the foreign scene, rekrul in particular, actually played a role in bringing the scandal to light before Korean sources confirmed it, please correct me if wrong)
Also, it's odd that the lines keep getting pushed so far that Pinnacle has no choice but to cancel. If it's the work of a single person or a tight ring, they are stupid or brazen. If it's a loose ring, perhaps the match result was leaked and people outside the ring started heavily betting on that information, heedless of the risk of alerting Pinnacle. Probably the most remote case (but perhaps the most hopeful as it exonerates the players) would be that instead of there being matchfixing, a single crazy bettor is trying to disrupt eSports betting for his own mischievous purposes.
Regardless, this NEEDS to be investigated. I still watch Proleague and other Korean starcraft events, but if no statement is made, these accusations with eventually damage Starcraft beyond repair.
On April 16 2015 03:48 Lumi wrote: Pretty sure this website is just doing this shit for publicity for their website. Honestly, before this fad of voiding bets, out of nowhere, but now consistently.. I had never ever heard of these people in our community. I really think they are just doing this to generate awareness of their site within the sc2 community.
WOAH WOAH WOAH!!! you can't say that! That's an opposing opinion that makes sense. Prepare for the rage.
Siding with the one of the stupidiest opinions out there makes you look even worse.
On April 16 2015 03:48 Lumi wrote: Pretty sure this website is just doing this shit for publicity for their website. Honestly, before this fad of voiding bets, out of nowhere, but now consistently.. I had never ever heard of these people in our community. I really think they are just doing this to generate awareness of their site within the sc2 community.
WOAH WOAH WOAH!!! you can't say that! That's an opposing opinion that makes sense. Prepare for the rage.
On April 16 2015 03:48 Lumi wrote: Pretty sure this website is just doing this shit for publicity for their website. Honestly, before this fad of voiding bets, out of nowhere, but now consistently.. I had never ever heard of these people in our community. I really think they are just doing this to generate awareness of their site within the sc2 community.
WOAH WOAH WOAH!!! you can't say that! That's an opposing opinion that makes sense. Prepare for the rage.
Actually it makes absolutely no sense because Pinnacle is a huge respectable company where SC2 makes up an EXTREMELY small portion of the money they deal with...
On April 16 2015 03:48 Lumi wrote: Pretty sure this website is just doing this shit for publicity for their website. Honestly, before this fad of voiding bets, out of nowhere, but now consistently.. I had never ever heard of these people in our community. I really think they are just doing this to generate awareness of their site within the sc2 community.
WOAH WOAH WOAH!!! you can't say that! That's an opposing opinion that makes sense. Prepare for the rage.
"Use our site to bet on fixed matches today!"
^To be fair, the match fixing would not be a matter for only this site, but it might look like THIS site is trying to do something about match fixing and is letting the community know about it, so I at least think I can see where he's coming from. Maybe his imagined reasoning was somewhat different though, we'll have to wait and see. EDIT TO BE CLEAR: When saying this and THIS, I meant Pinnacle, not TL.
Those of you who aren't Korean have to understand that this matchfixing problem is compounded by Korea having an extremely competitive and materialistic society where people are often led to believe that the ends justify the means. While this mentality probably helped the nation ascend to first-world status two decades ago, it's also brought a whole host of problems like rampant cheating and plagiarism in schools, the world's highest rate of plastic surgery, and the world's third highest rate of suicide, behind Greenland and Lithuania.
Will an investigation exposing matchfixers kill SC2? Of course not. SC2 is a game, it's more than just an e-sport.
Will an investigation exposing matchfixers kill SC2 Korean e-sports? Maybe, but it would be temporary. Either KeSPA would bring it back with the promise of "reformed policies" like they did with LoL, or someone like Sonic would revive it new tournaments.
On April 16 2015 03:48 Lumi wrote: Pretty sure this website is just doing this shit for publicity for their website. Honestly, before this fad of voiding bets, out of nowhere, but now consistently.. I had never ever heard of these people in our community. I really think they are just doing this to generate awareness of their site within the sc2 community.
WOAH WOAH WOAH!!! you can't say that! That's an opposing opinion that makes sense. Prepare for the rage.
Actually it makes absolutely no sense because Pinnacle is a huge respectable company where SC2 makes up an EXTREMELY small portion of the money they deal with...
Also ignoring the fact that there was no official statement, they only replied to the tweet because Swoop asked them about the lines, the voiding of the bet was initially only known to the pinnacle customers who happened to have a bet on the match.
I think the problem standing in the way of having this situation resolved is the fact that, despite a huge community response to the entire scandal, it's all being merely discussed over a couple of threads on an Internet forum. What about the Richard Lewis statement that was said to be released a couple of weeks ago? KeSPA, GSL, teams etc. need to be pushed towards taking an action against match fixing not via, as I said, a forum thread, but rather known people, influential in the StarCraft scene, who are capable of making the issue even more public than it is right now.
I don't understand the betting thing, sounds like someone bet a lot of money then pinnacle voided it. Sounds more like pinnacle doesn't want to pay the unusual large sum? Rather than as evidence of match fixing, was there something fishy with the game?
Not commenting on if theres matchfixing happening or not, but that maGicc guy seems like a complete douche to me. Seriously you can say your opinion without being a dick..
On April 16 2015 05:23 jinorazi wrote: I don't understand the betting thing, sounds like someone bet a lot of money then pinnacle voided it. Sounds more like pinnacle doesn't want to pay the unusual large sum? Rather than as evidence of match fixing, was there something fishy with the game?
But why would people bet so much money if the odds of winning were actually that bad?
Well... i was going to watch the SKT vs CJ match to catch up my SPL. Seeing this thread.... made me close it. It's depressing. I really want to know for sure. Savior destroyed my heart and my passion for a great game. I hope it's not happening another time.
Is this any surprise that this is happening now? The precedent has been set by Pinnacle that any time someone puts a large amount of money on a player over and over and then that player wins then = matchfixing. Ridiculous.
The marineking situation I could see most definitely. But now this?
Like they say, it's a slippery slope. And that slope is getting even more slippery. Gotta love precedent.
On April 16 2015 05:43 sc2_FeaR wrote: Is this any surprise that this is happening now? The precedent has been set by Pinnacle that any time someone puts a large amount of money on a player over and over and then that player wins then = matchfixing. Ridiculous.
The marineking situation I could see most definitely. But now this?
Like they say, it's a slippery slope. And that slope is getting even more slippery. Gotta love precedent.
Sigh, no, the bets are being voided before the matches are played. Please educate yourselves first before you state your opinions please people!
On April 16 2015 05:50 boxerfred wrote: ok so what if it's all Illuminati and the guys really need money so Illuminati invests in shady esports betting because ESPORTS?
On April 16 2015 03:31 cheekymonkey wrote: If there is suspicious betting and the player (who was betted on) actually wins the match, do they void the bets then? Do we know if this has ever happened?
Todays bet was voided before the match was played. Not sure about (all) the others
Edit: They were probably all voided before the match. The voiding is based on suspicious line movements and I take it the betting is closed before the matches actually start.
Does it matter when it was voided, aren't they essentially preemptively shutting down the possibility of having to give someone a big payout by voiding the bet where an underdog had large sums placed on him?
On April 15 2015 22:09 mortales wrote: I don't see how it could be matchfixed, the game looked completely normal.
MKP vs ByuL - "This couldn't be match fixing, it's too obvious!"
Soulkey vs Creator - "This couldn't be match fixing, it's not obvious enough!"
I haven't watched a game of SC2 in weeks. New seasons of SSL and GSL are about to start, and I have zero interest in tuning in. It'll be the first Korean tournament I'll miss since the start of 2013.
HuK is absolutely right. There are no good outcomes to this situation anymore.
On April 16 2015 03:31 cheekymonkey wrote: If there is suspicious betting and the player (who was betted on) actually wins the match, do they void the bets then? Do we know if this has ever happened?
Todays bet was voided before the match was played. Not sure about (all) the others
Edit: They were probably all voided before the match. The voiding is based on suspicious line movements and I take it the betting is closed before the matches actually start.
Does it matter when it was voided, aren't they essentially preemptively shutting down the possibility of having to give someone a big payout by voiding the bet where an underdog had large sums placed on him?
How could you ever run a successful betting company if you did that? You think the big, professional betters would accept that?
Edit: Here's a post from Swoopae regarding the MK - Byul match, maybe it'll help to clarify how the betting works
To move the line this far it would have to look something like this (just an example) with all bets being placed in about 2 minutes. Assuming the max 'to win' bet is 1k per bet (it's usually 1k on game day, I don't recall what the max bet was for this match)
(These numbers are accurate representations of the amount risked, with each bet to win 1k just for illustration purposes. The actual betting pattern would have been similar to this to move the line this far. It is just an estimate however based on my extensive experience as an esports bettor, only Pinnacle has the actual numbers that were wagered on this match, we just know that the odds slowly moved from 1.73 to about 1.53 which is close to an accurate betting line, then in a 1-2 minute period right before the match this happened)
$2000 on Byul at 1.50 $2040 on Byul at 1.49 $2127 on Byul at 1.47 $2173 on Byul at 1.46 $2222 on Byul at 1.45 $2272 on Byul at 1.44 $2381 on Byul at 1.42 $2500 on Byul at 1.40 $2631 on Byul at 1.38 $2702 on Byul at 1.37 $2857 on Byul at 1.35 $2941 on Byul at 1.34 $3125 on Byul at 1.32 $3333 on Byul at 1.30 $3571 on Byul at 1.28 $3846 on Byul at 1.26 $4166 on Byul at 1.24 $4545 on Byul at 1.22 $5000 on Byul at 1.20 $5555 on Byul at 1.18 $6666 on Byul at 1.15 $7690 on Byul at 1.13 $9090 on Byul at 1.11 $10,000 on Byul at 1.10 $11,000 on Byul at 1.091
Then the odds were taken down due to the bets being deemed suspicious.
Using this example (again this is an estimate, Pinnacle have the actual numbers but it would be something like this) the bettors would stand to win 25k, 1k per bet but they are risking an absolute fortune at awful prices to do it. Bettors will only bet on a player they think will win up to the point where the bet no longer yields a positive return due to probability.
For example i'd bet on CJ Hero over Center at even money, or even at 1.33 or something (which is about where the price was for the actual game yesterday) but if the price was bet to 1.09, that means I could get 8.00 or more on Center, so I would bet on Center because even though he is not the favourite, he will win more than 1 in 8 best of 1s on average against Hero.
On April 16 2015 03:31 cheekymonkey wrote: If there is suspicious betting and the player (who was betted on) actually wins the match, do they void the bets then? Do we know if this has ever happened?
Todays bet was voided before the match was played. Not sure about (all) the others
Edit: They were probably all voided before the match. The voiding is based on suspicious line movements and I take it the betting is closed before the matches actually start.
Does it matter when it was voided, aren't they essentially preemptively shutting down the possibility of having to give someone a big payout by voiding the bet where an underdog had large sums placed on him?
You apparently have zero clue on how bookmakers operate and how are they making money.
On April 16 2015 03:31 cheekymonkey wrote: If there is suspicious betting and the player (who was betted on) actually wins the match, do they void the bets then? Do we know if this has ever happened?
Todays bet was voided before the match was played. Not sure about (all) the others
Edit: They were probably all voided before the match. The voiding is based on suspicious line movements and I take it the betting is closed before the matches actually start.
Does it matter when it was voided, aren't they essentially preemptively shutting down the possibility of having to give someone a big payout by voiding the bet where an underdog had large sums placed on him?
They make money regardless of whether the larger or smaller bet wins or not because the payout is proportional to the odds as in how much people are betting on each side. The house always wins by taking a cut for you using their platform.
Say if one side bet 1000$ and the other 100$. The line wouldn't be 1.1:11, it would always be lower. So the bookers never pay out the whole 1100$ regardless.
On April 16 2015 03:31 cheekymonkey wrote: If there is suspicious betting and the player (who was betted on) actually wins the match, do they void the bets then? Do we know if this has ever happened?
Todays bet was voided before the match was played. Not sure about (all) the others
Edit: They were probably all voided before the match. The voiding is based on suspicious line movements and I take it the betting is closed before the matches actually start.
Does it matter when it was voided, aren't they essentially preemptively shutting down the possibility of having to give someone a big payout by voiding the bet where an underdog had large sums placed on him?
They make money regardless of whether the larger or smaller bet wins or not because the payout is proportional to the odds as in how much people are betting on each side. The house always wins by taking a cut for you using their platform.
On April 16 2015 05:24 Luolis wrote: Not commenting on if theres matchfixing happening or not, but that maGicc guy seems like a complete douche to me. Seriously you can say your opinion without being a dick..
in magicc's defense, it is unbelievably frustrating that people come into this thread, read nothing and then post an opinion that's been refuted probably over a hundred times between all of the threads this has been discussed. It gets tiring having to explain the same basic things to people over and over and over, when they've all been explained many times. You can see it happening multiple times on this page, even.
My question to anyone living in Korea would be how much traction (if any at all) is all of this drama getting on Korean SC2 forums? Do people know and not care? Do people not even know?
It's hard to imagine people not knowing at this point, but it's equally hard to imagine that KeSPA has had any pressure put on them by Korean fans, since they've released close to zero PR on this.
On April 16 2015 06:16 pure.Wasted wrote: My question to anyone living in Korea would be how much discussion (if any at all) is all of this drama getting on Korean SC2 forums? Do people know and not care? Do people not even know?
Oh ye Wolf mentioned he was going to translate some comments from the korean forums but decided not to because they were "too rude", i am guessing they were rude towards MKP, but it could be that they are rude in defending him and blaming pinnacle, but very unlikely.
On April 16 2015 06:23 Darkhorse wrote: Yo it'll be so sick when all the Koreans get banned for matchfixing and foreigners start winning everything
Implying foreigners are morally superior to Koreans because they are immune to match fixing themselves? Or implying foreigners suck so bad no one would ask them to matchfix to lose? If anything those in slumps or under perform are much more likely to matchfix since their careers are under valued at that point and they make more money match fixing...
On April 16 2015 06:23 Darkhorse wrote: Yo it'll be so sick when all the Koreans get banned for matchfixing and foreigners start winning everything
Implying foreigners are morally superior to Koreans because they are immune to match fixing themselves? Or implying foreigners suck so bad no one would ask them to matchfix to lose? If anything those in slumps or under perform are much more likely to matchfix since their careers are under valued at that point and they make more money...
I think he's just implying that with all the koreans banned the foreigners would win. I don't think he's thought about how it would actually effect matchfixing (plus if its done through korean groups it'd be kinda hard for them to start influencing foreigners.)
On April 16 2015 06:23 Darkhorse wrote: Yo it'll be so sick when all the Koreans get banned for matchfixing and foreigners start winning everything
Implying foreigners are morally superior to Koreans because they are immune to match fixing themselves? Or implying foreigners suck so bad no one would ask them to matchfix to lose? If anything those in slumps or under perform are much more likely to matchfix since their careers are under valued at that point and they make more money match fixing...
This is extremely strong evidence. It is hard to even imagine stronger evidence for match fixing without a real investigation. This simply cant be swept under the rug anymore by kespa not making a statement and tl closing the threads.
It is heart breaking to think that soulkey could be involved in this. (And if somehow he isnt we really need a police investigation that can clear his name.)
On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote: The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen: 1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash. 2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money. 3. Vast majority of people don't notice. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed but even most of them just enjoy the drama or don't care LOL
I just watched this series, and while I agreed MK/ByuL was very suspicious, here I just don't see it. I didn't see any indication that Soulkey threw game 1. He lost but frankly he looked terrible the entire series (he only won off a 2-base all-in) so if anything the fact that he was heavily favored on Pinnacle to win the series suggests to me there's nothing untoward here. I'm sure there are "subtle" things players can do to ensure they lose but then why didn't he play better for the remaining series where there was no strange betting?
Has someone done the reverse of this analysis: see how many bizarre betting lines there are that DON'T end up going into the bizarre bettor's favor? I don't doubt there's a real issue with bettors influencing matches but it takes more than a surprising line to convince me that this PARTICULAR game was fixed.
On April 16 2015 05:43 sc2_FeaR wrote: Is this any surprise that this is happening now? The precedent has been set by Pinnacle that any time someone puts a large amount of money on a player over and over and then that player wins then = matchfixing. Ridiculous.
The marineking situation I could see most definitely. But now this?
Like they say, it's a slippery slope. And that slope is getting even more slippery. Gotta love precedent.
They cancelled the bets about an hour before the match took place they were not attempting to freeroll anyone
On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote: The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen: 1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash. 2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money. 3. Vast majority of people don't notice. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed but even most of them just enjoy the drama or don't care LOL
This should be in the OP btw
It should. So should my explanation on how dynamic betting lines work which was quoted from the other thread a page or two back.
The MKP one I get. It's an esf team, it's SPL, there's no money to win by winning the match legit, and it looked rather obvious on film.
The SK one I do not get. He wins and he goes to Code S. SK has the talent to go far in tourney's, it's not like he's a scrub or fallen off. It's an individual tourney where he wins money the better he does. The match looked perfectly normal.
Seriously, what incentive is there for SK to throw a game? Only thing I can think of is he got too used to his WJS/SKT salary and was naive enough to think he could throw a game and still beat Creator. Just seems foolish.
On April 16 2015 13:54 vesicular wrote: The MKP one I get. It's an esf team, it's SPL, there's no money to win by winning the match legit, and it looked rather obvious on film.
The SK one I do not get. He wins and he goes to Code S. SK has the talent to go far in tourney's, it's not like he's a scrub or fallen off. It's an individual tourney where he wins money the better he does. The match looked perfectly normal.
Seriously, what incentive is there for SK to throw a game? Only thing I can think of is he got too used to his WJS/SKT salary and was naive enough to think he could throw a game and still beat Creator. Just seems foolish.
i don't really have much of a horse in this debate (strongly suspicious and lean toward the guilty side, but i admit i don't know and anything is possible), but IMO as soon as you start building the doubt of "why would THIS player do it?/what motive does he have?" and looking at his success or recent form you're basically already opening the door for matchfixing to happen and be swept under the rug. facts: 1) criminals are no smarter than the average person 2) successful people aren't always satisfied with their success/earnings just because it seems like a lot to the rest of us 3) people at the highest level of play in countless different sports, leagues, competitions etc. have been caught cheating time and time again
unless you're a personal friend of one of the accused players and have a genuine insight into who they are or why they do what they do, brainstorming about how likely they are to do something shady is really just a way to push toward an innocent verdict because it's what you want to be true. "he doesn't seem like the type" has never held up in reality
On April 16 2015 13:54 vesicular wrote: The MKP one I get. It's an esf team, it's SPL, there's no money to win by winning the match legit, and it looked rather obvious on film.
The SK one I do not get. He wins and he goes to Code S. SK has the talent to go far in tourney's, it's not like he's a scrub or fallen off. It's an individual tourney where he wins money the better he does. The match looked perfectly normal.
Seriously, what incentive is there for SK to throw a game? Only thing I can think of is he got too used to his WJS/SKT salary and was naive enough to think he could throw a game and still beat Creator. Just seems foolish.
i don't really have much of a horse in this debate (strongly suspicious and lean toward the guilty side, but i admit i don't know and anything is possible), but IMO as soon as you start building the doubt of "why would THIS player do it?/what motive does he have?" and looking at his success or recent form you're basically already opening the door for matchfixing to happen and be swept under the rug. facts: 1) criminals are no smarter than the average person 2) successful people aren't always satisfied with their success/earnings just because it seems like a lot to the rest of us 3) people at the highest level of play in countless different sports, leagues, competitions etc. have been caught cheating time and time again
unless you're a personal friend of one of the accused players and have a genuine insight into who they are or why they do what they do, brainstorming about how likely they are to do something shady is really just a way to push toward an innocent verdict because it's what you want to be true. "he doesn't seem like the type" has never held up in reality
Pretty much, all the people who got caught in BW match fixing scandal were up and coming stars or people who already had respectable records.
the reason anyone would do it, even successful players, is because it appears to be easy money for very little risk.
even with pinnacle voiding bets, no one's getting investigated or punished. not yet, at least.
that's why I can't rule out that even Innovation would throw a map, despite the fact that he has a decent amount of winnings and probably a good salary, if the betting lines say that someone knew he would lose the first map vs Super.
Soulkey i hope this isnt true, if he needed the money why didnt he try switch to BW the afreeca streams seem to be okay for living off (and soulkey was rising to be such an awesome player near the end of kespa-bw)
Fact 2 : Pinacle runs a business and wants esport betting to become a good banch of activity. The last thing they want is a scandal. What they want is to tell their customer : 'it is safe, it is legit, we're protecting you'
that's not a fact. that is your opinion.
Bigger business have done worst things in the past. so the good intentions of pinacle can't be labeled like a "fact"
Fact 2 : Pinacle runs a business and wants esport betting to become a good banch of activity. The last thing they want is a scandal. What they want is to tell their customer : 'it is safe, it is legit, we're protecting you'
that's not a fact. that is your opinion.
Bigger business have done worst things in the past. so the good intentions of pinacle can't be labeled like a "fact"
It's not good intentions, though, it's protecting their brand.
On April 16 2015 11:04 Yakikorosu wrote: I just watched this series, and while I agreed MK/ByuL was very suspicious, here I just don't see it. I didn't see any indication that Soulkey threw game 1. He lost but frankly he looked terrible the entire series (he only won off a 2-base all-in) so if anything the fact that he was heavily favored on Pinnacle to win the series suggests to me there's nothing untoward here. I'm sure there are "subtle" things players can do to ensure they lose but then why didn't he play better for the remaining series where there was no strange betting?
Has someone done the reverse of this analysis: see how many bizarre betting lines there are that DON'T end up going into the bizarre bettor's favor? I don't doubt there's a real issue with bettors influencing matches but it takes more than a surprising line to convince me that this PARTICULAR game was fixed.
But that's the point though. Matchfixing only works when it isn't obvious. If Marineking hadn't (I assume) accidently discovered the spine and then did the same thing everyone would have gone "Oh it was just MK being MK" and the whole thing would've been an interesting side note ala the San-Dark match.
Pro players don't need to make huge adjustments to change the outcome, a second or two late on starting upgrades, going in a split second BEFORE the timing hits, A-Moving your best units in the middle of microing, it looks on the surface normal and an error but in reality it's something far more sinister.
On April 16 2015 13:54 vesicular wrote: The MKP one I get. It's an esf team, it's SPL, there's no money to win by winning the match legit, and it looked rather obvious on film.
The SK one I do not get. He wins and he goes to Code S. SK has the talent to go far in tourney's, it's not like he's a scrub or fallen off. It's an individual tourney where he wins money the better he does. The match looked perfectly normal.
Seriously, what incentive is there for SK to throw a game? Only thing I can think of is he got too used to his WJS/SKT salary and was naive enough to think he could throw a game and still beat Creator. Just seems foolish.
Beating Creator and making Code S vs beating Creator and making Code S while also getting some extra money. This isn't the first time a player has had abnormal odds for one map only, and I'm pretty sure the bets have always been against the favoured player and they always did end up losing.
Fact 2 : Pinacle runs a business and wants esport betting to become a good banch of activity. The last thing they want is a scandal. What they want is to tell their customer : 'it is safe, it is legit, we're protecting you'
that's not a fact. that is your opinion.
Bigger business have done worst things in the past. so the good intentions of pinacle can't be labeled like a "fact"
You might have misunderstood my point here, it has nothing to do with good intention, it's just about running a business and public relations. If you have restaurant, the last thing you want is someone dying of staphyloccocus aureus after they ate your menu. It's a same here.
Therefore, it's natural for Pinnacle to try to show the custommers that they can safely trust them. From that point on, esport betting having a bad reputation (esport is not so well known, not so well understood, and most betters know about match fixing scandals in BW and CS:GO even if they never watched any esport game) it's critical for Pinnacle to show they care about it, that they're monitoring the lines and that if anything goes wrong they would void the bet. It's just like the McDonald's TV campains when they say their meat is 100% sure and top quality.
That's why imho, they'd much prefer void a 100% legit and clean bet than taking the risk to have a scandal exploding in their hands afterward.... It would hurt their market and it would make their customers stop betting on esport.
Cherry on the cake : for each betting market, there is traders, these are the guys that set the odds and adjust them when the bets come in. At pinnacle you have former sc2 player DarkForce who is the lead esport trader. It's him that decides in the end if a bet has to be voided or not. If a fraudulous bet was to happen and if a scandal was to explode because of it, not only it would take betters away from pinnacle esport bets in general, but also this fair guy would just loose his job.
On April 15 2015 21:59 Swoopae wrote: Worth noting MVP promised a statement last week, yesterday and then again today on the Marineking situation if someone wants to add those tweets to OP
I'll update it when they give the statement.
For some reason I don't see that ever happening. They're just trying to deflect until our fickle attention dissipates.
On April 15 2015 22:40 TBO wrote: What I don't understand in this case - unlike as in the other supposedly manipulated matches - that allegedly Soulkey was only supposed to lose the first map and then was free to win unlike the other matches where it was always a bo1 or the whole match was fixed. Actually it does make a lot of sense thinking about it, getting a player to lose 1 map of a best of five is probably cheaper and easier than to get him to lose the series especially if there is so much money at the line to win in Code S. This time however the betting lines are not completely silly, so rather than Soulkey being involved it imo is possible that someone knew what both Soulkey and Creator were going to do in the first map, which could give enough confidence to bet with such quotes. That could be either leaked insider information as well as trojans on their PCs or something similar.
The betting lines were still silly enough that Pinnacle and *another* sports book closed the bets. I think once or twice we can try to think of outlandish theories (like San actually being in the hospital being leaked). But this has happened multiple times now.
I wonder if the admins ever did vet this guy and if what he's saying is trustworthy? Last time I saw an anonymous poster was when Spades was revealed to be hacking and the TL admins said he was legit.
By the way, nice promotion for that betting site. Before all those threads, I had never heard of it. Now I know everything about it, even part of their staff.
On April 16 2015 16:20 Pr0wler wrote: By the way, nice promotion for that betting site. Before all those threads, I had never heard of it. Now I know everything about it, even part of their staff.
On April 15 2015 21:59 Swoopae wrote: Worth noting MVP promised a statement last week, yesterday and then again today on the Marineking situation if someone wants to add those tweets to OP
I'll update it when they give the statement.
For some reason I don't see that ever happening. They're just trying to deflect until our fickle attention dissipates.
On April 15 2015 22:40 TBO wrote: What I don't understand in this case - unlike as in the other supposedly manipulated matches - that allegedly Soulkey was only supposed to lose the first map and then was free to win unlike the other matches where it was always a bo1 or the whole match was fixed. Actually it does make a lot of sense thinking about it, getting a player to lose 1 map of a best of five is probably cheaper and easier than to get him to lose the series especially if there is so much money at the line to win in Code S. This time however the betting lines are not completely silly, so rather than Soulkey being involved it imo is possible that someone knew what both Soulkey and Creator were going to do in the first map, which could give enough confidence to bet with such quotes. That could be either leaked insider information as well as trojans on their PCs or something similar.
I wonder if the admins ever did vet this guy and if what he's saying is trustworthy? Last time I saw an anonymous poster was when Spades was revealed to be hacking and the TL admins said he was legit.
That person is trustworthy. I am not saying that what he is saying is necessarily true (since I have no available insider information on the matter), but I can say that the alt is a reliable person.
Soon we will have a Daily post about matchfixing, where somebody pays few bucks to an IT guy to manually raise the numbers for certain bets (which is not hard to do) and than one sheep with name Swoo**** will start spamming twitter/tl with nonsense posts...
Everyone who tries to make living or is calling himself "proffesional" betters should be executed from this world, because betting only brings corruption, violence, betting and problems... NOTHING else
On April 16 2015 16:57 PharaphobiaSC2 wrote: Hmm another post of Swoopae and Pinnacle...
Soon we will have a Daily post about matchfixing, where somebody pays few bucks to an IT guy to manually raise the numbers for certain bets (which is not hard to do) and than one sheep with name Swoo**** will start spamming twitter/tl with nonsense posts...
Everyone who tries to make living or is calling himself "proffesional" betters should be executed from this world, because betting only brings corruption, violence, betting and problems... NOTHING else
pls stop shitposting, thread's bad enough as it is...
On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote: I just don't care anymore
This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it.
No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
and you don't understand what proof means. Obviously there is match fixing going on since it plagued everything (Champion's League and WC in football) but the amount of proof is so small that nothing gets done in any sport. Main problem is that betting is a cancer for any competitive activity.
^This.
THIS. IS. NO. PROOF.
I mean, it is a really really really really really really really really really suspicious piece of information. Which, added to the other we have, makes it even MORE suspicious. At a point that there's no more doubt about it, added to all the info Rek or HuK gave.
But, for fuck sake, stop calling it proof/evidence.
We won't have any proof or evidence until a proper investigation is made bythe Korean authority, be it KeSPA or Police.
On April 16 2015 16:57 PharaphobiaSC2 wrote: Hmm another post of Swoopae and Pinnacle...
Soon we will have a Daily post about matchfixing, where somebody pays few bucks to an IT guy to manually raise the numbers for certain bets (which is not hard to do) and than one sheep with name Swoo**** will start spamming twitter/tl with nonsense posts...
Everyone who tries to make living or is calling himself "proffesional" betters should be executed from this world, because betting only brings corruption, violence, betting and problems... NOTHING else
pls stop shitposting, thread's bad enough as it is...
Wow hold on, I'm being super honest with this! I would be first in the line who would shoot this m*f* right in his face + that opionion on betting is super honest.. I don't like betting even for fun... it just makes life worse..
On April 16 2015 16:57 PharaphobiaSC2 wrote: Hmm another post of Swoopae and Pinnacle...
Soon we will have a Daily post about matchfixing, where somebody pays few bucks to an IT guy to manually raise the numbers for certain bets (which is not hard to do) and than one sheep with name Swoo**** will start spamming twitter/tl with nonsense posts...
Everyone who tries to make living or is calling himself "proffesional" betters should be executed from this world, because betting only brings corruption, violence, betting and problems... NOTHING else
betting is an opportunity for dishonest people to take advantage of others. Note the word dishonest ]. Saying all betters are cancerous matchfixers is like saying all starcraft players are maphackers, because hacks exist. This claim brings so much constructive feedback to the discussion.
I dunno, it still seems that even TL.net management is not very convinced by this "evidence". How else can you explain that they did not even void the Liquibet?!
On April 16 2015 18:08 opisska wrote: I dunno, it still seems that even TL.net management is not very convinced by this "evidence". How else can you explain that they did not even void the Liquibet?!
You liquibet the whole bo5 while the skewed line was only for map 1. Also, liquibet is for fun and there´s no money involved, so voiding or not voiding the liquibet doesn´t matter.
On April 16 2015 18:08 opisska wrote: I dunno, it still seems that even TL.net management is not very convinced by this "evidence". How else can you explain that they did not even void the Liquibet?!
On April 16 2015 18:08 opisska wrote: I dunno, it still seems that even TL.net management is not very convinced by this "evidence". How else can you explain that they did not even void the Liquibet?!
Cookie for you. You got 2posts with your bait :p Romanians everywhere
On April 16 2015 18:08 opisska wrote: I dunno, it still seems that even TL.net management is not very convinced by this "evidence". How else can you explain that they did not even void the Liquibet?!
why do you think i do so well in FPL when i actually try
What disgusts me the most is that few days ago MVP replied to Helium's tweet by saying 'Statement at the end of today's proleague' and then they just disappeared.
The match fixing has to be punished. Yes, that would damage the whole scene but imo that is the one way that is still left. Letting it happen would render the whole korean scene pointless. Am i rite?
On April 16 2015 19:56 SoSexy wrote: What disgusts me the most is that few days ago MVP replied to Helium's tweet by saying 'Statement at the end of today's proleague' and then they just disappeared.
Punishing matchfixers won't do much more than screw up some poor kids' lives even more than they already are. Korean SC2 is not financially viable. It has a stupid incentive model. Match fixing is a symptom of that.
I gotta say that I like MVP's definition of "today" a lot. Ever happened to you that sometimes you've got something important to do and just go "eww no, not today, I [insert excuse here]". Well now you can just say "yes, i'll do it today, seems good" and be done with it :D
On April 16 2015 23:10 OtherWorld wrote: I gotta say that I like MVP's definition of "today" a lot. Ever happened to you that sometimes you've got something important to do and just go "eww no, not today, I [insert excuse here]". Well now you can just say "yes, i'll do it today, seems good" and be done with it :D
On April 16 2015 23:10 OtherWorld wrote: I gotta say that I like MVP's definition of "today" a lot. Ever happened to you that sometimes you've got something important to do and just go "eww no, not today, I [insert excuse here]". Well now you can just say "yes, i'll do it today, seems good" and be done with it :D
On April 16 2015 23:14 The_Red_Viper wrote: I bet it's cause "today" is obviously as long as you don't sleep. We all know koreans train for like 72 hours straight
Are you telling me that Cure's 24-hour StarCraft marathon for the IEM Qualifiers is in fact not impressive at all since it's only 1/3 of his usual training day? d:
On April 16 2015 23:14 The_Red_Viper wrote: I bet it's cause "today" is obviously as long as you don't sleep. We all know koreans train for like 72 hours straight
Are you telling me that Cure's 24-hour StarCraft marathon for the IEM Qualifiers is in fact not impressive at all since it's only 1/3 of his usual training day? d:
It's impressive that he took such a long break from training in order to qualify.
what Id like to know: do those betting sites pay money to the sport associations or are in any way affiliated with them? I couldnt answer that question from Pinnacles website or from googling, so im asking you.
On April 16 2015 06:23 Darkhorse wrote: Yo it'll be so sick when all the Koreans get banned for matchfixing and foreigners start winning everything
I would have been muted for a week for saying this.
You might get banned for that comment.
If I do I'll have proven my point.
No. From the forum posting rules:
Don't be a drama queen or martyr. Our forums aren't colonial America or Tiananmen Square. "This is going to get me banned, but..." results in an automatic ban.
Can any posters who live in Korea/frequent Korean gaming forums tell us what kind of publicity all of this betting is getting among Korean viewers? Are they aware that fishy stuff is going on? Or was the MarineKing situation a one time peculiarity to them, easily gotten over and forgotten?
On April 17 2015 10:10 pure.Wasted wrote: Repeating my question from a couple of pages ago:
Can any posters who live in Korea/frequent Korean gaming forums tell us what kind of publicity all of this betting is getting among Korean viewers? Are they aware that fishy stuff is going on? Or was the MarineKing situation a one time peculiarity to them, easily gotten over and forgotten?
Wolf briefly mentioned that the comments (about MK) were too mean to be broadcasted.
On April 17 2015 10:59 Scarecrow wrote: Legacy of the Voided matches incoming
On April 17 2015 10:10 pure.Wasted wrote: Repeating my question from a couple of pages ago:
Can any posters who live in Korea/frequent Korean gaming forums tell us what kind of publicity all of this betting is getting among Korean viewers? Are they aware that fishy stuff is going on? Or was the MarineKing situation a one time peculiarity to them, easily gotten over and forgotten?
Wolf briefly mentioned that the comments (about MK) were too mean to be broadcasted.
Haha, yeah, I read that. But it makes you wonder -- if people are just as aware and upset on Korean forums/twitters/what have you, how is KeSPA getting away with making no public statements at all about what's going on? How are they feeling no pressure?
On April 17 2015 10:10 pure.Wasted wrote: Repeating my question from a couple of pages ago:
Can any posters who live in Korea/frequent Korean gaming forums tell us what kind of publicity all of this betting is getting among Korean viewers? Are they aware that fishy stuff is going on? Or was the MarineKing situation a one time peculiarity to them, easily gotten over and forgotten?
Wolf briefly mentioned that the comments (about MK) were too mean to be broadcasted.
Haha, yeah, I read that. But it makes you wonder -- if people are just as aware and upset on Korean forums/twitters/what have you, how is KeSPA getting away with making no public statements at all about what's going on? How are they feeling no pressure?
It took them several months to actually ban players last time, even though apparently teams/coaches had known about fixing for quite a while. Too bad Pinnacle only started offering eSports a few months before it blew over.
Yeah we better shut up the people talking about this issue. Because there's nothing legitimate they could ever talk about, like korean netizens, MVP's continued claims of a statement, progamer comments, etc.
I'd love to add something constructive but its hard to give a fuck when clearly nothing is going to happen from us posting on teamliquid, or else it already would have with the MKP thread. There isn't much more to discuss.
I don't see the point of locking a thread unless it goes off topic or becomes hostile. It really just frustrates people who still want to comment and read more, even though others have heard enough.
On April 17 2015 13:07 Doodsmack wrote: Yeah we better shut up the people talking about this issue. Because there's nothing legitimate they could ever talk about, like korean netizens, MVP's continued claims of a statement, progamer comments, etc.
On April 17 2015 00:32 Doodsmack wrote: Uhh yeah...Proleague and GSL are officially jokes.
RIP SC2.
Is this what you consider legitimate talking points?
On April 17 2015 13:07 Doodsmack wrote: Yeah we better shut up the people talking about this issue. Because there's nothing legitimate they could ever talk about, like korean netizens, MVP's continued claims of a statement, progamer comments, etc.
On April 17 2015 00:32 Doodsmack wrote: Uhh yeah...Proleague and GSL are officially jokes.
RIP SC2.
Is this what you consider legitimate talking points?
If you don't care to see people express their frustration with rampant match fixing at the highest level of competitive SC2, you're more than welcome to leave this thread.
I'm very confident in the mods' ability to lock it when it's run its course.
On April 17 2015 13:07 Doodsmack wrote: Yeah we better shut up the people talking about this issue. Because there's nothing legitimate they could ever talk about, like korean netizens, MVP's continued claims of a statement, progamer comments, etc.
On April 17 2015 00:32 Doodsmack wrote: Uhh yeah...Proleague and GSL are officially jokes.
RIP SC2.
Is this what you consider legitimate talking points?
Well I'm pretty sure everyone involved in SC had a cow back when savior was caught, so it's pretty telling of the state of the game that this issue is staying pretty quiet.
On April 18 2015 00:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: about kespas lack of action.
It takes a long time to build criminal cases, and it is possible that they are only being inactive because korean police are deep in an investigation.
True, I also wouldn't eliminate the possibility that Blizzard and/or KeSPA are doing something already but can't yet go public with their information. Time will tell I guess.
On April 18 2015 00:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: about kespas lack of action.
It takes a long time to build criminal cases, and it is possible that they are only being inactive because korean police are deep in an investigation.
True, I also wouldn't eliminate the possibility that Blizzard and/or KeSPA are doing something already but can't yet go public with their information. Time will tell I guess.
I really doubt Blizzard is working on this, they have an expansion to make.
On April 18 2015 00:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: about kespas lack of action.
It takes a long time to build criminal cases, and it is possible that they are only being inactive because korean police are deep in an investigation.
True, I also wouldn't eliminate the possibility that Blizzard and/or KeSPA are doing something already but can't yet go public with their information. Time will tell I guess.
I really doubt Blizzard is working on this, they have an expansion to make.
Comeon, not every single guy on Blizzard is working on the expansion.
On April 18 2015 00:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: about kespas lack of action.
It takes a long time to build criminal cases, and it is possible that they are only being inactive because korean police are deep in an investigation.
True, I also wouldn't eliminate the possibility that Blizzard and/or KeSPA are doing something already but can't yet go public with their information. Time will tell I guess.
I really doubt Blizzard is working on this, they have an expansion to make.
Comeon, not every single guy on Blizzard is working on the expansion.
Why would Blizzard get involved in an international criminal investigation?
On April 18 2015 00:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: about kespas lack of action.
It takes a long time to build criminal cases, and it is possible that they are only being inactive because korean police are deep in an investigation.
True, I also wouldn't eliminate the possibility that Blizzard and/or KeSPA are doing something already but can't yet go public with their information. Time will tell I guess.
I really doubt Blizzard is working on this, they have an expansion to make.
Comeon, not every single guy on Blizzard is working on the expansion.
Why would Blizzard get involved in an international criminal investigation?
Well they're funding a good chunk of the scene, might as well make sure that what they fund isn't rigged shit
On April 18 2015 00:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: about kespas lack of action.
It takes a long time to build criminal cases, and it is possible that they are only being inactive because korean police are deep in an investigation.
True, I also wouldn't eliminate the possibility that Blizzard and/or KeSPA are doing something already but can't yet go public with their information. Time will tell I guess.
I really doubt Blizzard is working on this, they have an expansion to make.
Comeon, not every single guy on Blizzard is working on the expansion.
Why would Blizzard get involved in an international criminal investigation?
Well they're funding a good chunk of the scene, might as well make sure that what they fund isn't rigged shit
But they can't "make sure." They have zero legal authority in the United States, much less South Korea. They're just a video game company. The best they can do is provide information, and what information could they possibly have that would help South Korean police?
The actual best thing they can do is just apply internal pressure on KeSPA to come up with a scapegoat if not the full list of culprits.
On April 18 2015 00:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: about kespas lack of action.
It takes a long time to build criminal cases, and it is possible that they are only being inactive because korean police are deep in an investigation.
True, I also wouldn't eliminate the possibility that Blizzard and/or KeSPA are doing something already but can't yet go public with their information. Time will tell I guess.
I really doubt Blizzard is working on this, they have an expansion to make.
Comeon, not every single guy on Blizzard is working on the expansion.
Why would Blizzard get involved in an international criminal investigation?
Well they're funding a good chunk of the scene, might as well make sure that what they fund isn't rigged shit
But they can't "make sure." They have zero legal authority in the United States, much less South Korea. They're just a video game company. The best they can do is provide information, and what information could they possibly have that would help South Korean police?
The actual best thing they can do is just apply internal pressure on KeSPA to come up with a scapegoat if not the full list of culprits.
I guess that's where the "No LAN" policy comes in handy, to threaten KeSPA to prevent them to access the game if they don't act ; but I think that Korean leagues have their own LAN version of SC2 afaik?
On April 18 2015 00:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: about kespas lack of action.
It takes a long time to build criminal cases, and it is possible that they are only being inactive because korean police are deep in an investigation.
True, I also wouldn't eliminate the possibility that Blizzard and/or KeSPA are doing something already but can't yet go public with their information. Time will tell I guess.
I really doubt Blizzard is working on this, they have an expansion to make.
Comeon, not every single guy on Blizzard is working on the expansion.
Why would Blizzard get involved in an international criminal investigation?
Well they're funding a good chunk of the scene, might as well make sure that what they fund isn't rigged shit
But they can't "make sure." They have zero legal authority in the United States, much less South Korea. They're just a video game company. The best they can do is provide information, and what information could they possibly have that would help South Korean police?
The actual best thing they can do is just apply internal pressure on KeSPA to come up with a scapegoat if not the full list of culprits.
B.net chat logs of the offending players' accounts would be worth looking at.
Pretty ridiculous that MVP keep saying the statement is 'coming today' and it isn't, if they had no intention of a statement why even say anything?
Is there anyone here who speaks enough Korean to check out the Korean forums and see what everyone is saying? I'd use google translate but it's notoriously unreliable and would change the meaning of stuff a lot.
On April 18 2015 18:08 MrFreeman wrote: Wow, Soulkey is on Axiom-TCM Shoutcraft team, was there any statement from Axiom representative?
It would have nothing to do with Axiom, they don't need to say anything.
Well, the post said that Soulkey may have intentionally lose a game and Soulkey also recently went to reinforce the Axiom team in Clan wars so I was curious whether there was some reaction or statement from them.
On April 18 2015 18:08 MrFreeman wrote: Wow, Soulkey is on Axiom-TCM Shoutcraft team, was there any statement from Axiom representative?
It would have nothing to do with Axiom, they don't need to say anything.
Well, the post said that Soulkey may have intentionally lose a game and Soulkey also recently went to reinforce the Axiom team in Clan wars so I was curious whether there was some reaction or statement from them.
PM Total Biscuit if you want to know. I can't guarranty he's going to be nice with you though
On April 18 2015 18:08 MrFreeman wrote: Wow, Soulkey is on Axiom-TCM Shoutcraft team, was there any statement from Axiom representative?
It would have nothing to do with Axiom, they don't need to say anything.
Well, the post said that Soulkey may have intentionally lose a game and Soulkey also recently went to reinforce the Axiom team in Clan wars so I was curious whether there was some reaction or statement from them.
PM Total Biscuit if you want to know. I can't guarranty he's going to be nice with you though
Let's remind MVPs twitter account of a certain statement, shall we?
The reason MVP are getting singled out here for the statement are twofold; Marineking was the most obvious throw of the cancelled bets (both line movement and the way the match played out) plus MVP have repeatedly said they'd make a statement 'today' which never comes.
I'd like to hear from each team that has had a players bets cancelled personally, but hearing from anyone is a starting point. We should probably be safe in the finals since the players are on Kespa teams and have more to play for here + allkill format means all but the first games are unknown, but if nothing happens we're going to be making another of these thread next round in Proleague and potentially in GSL and Starleague as well.
MVPJeef can't be on a delayed flight forever... it's disgraceful that MVP fielded Marineking in Proleague again without making a statement after they promised one.
On April 20 2015 20:00 Swoopae wrote: The reason MVP are getting singled out here for the statement are twofold; Marineking was the most obvious throw of the cancelled bets (both line movement and the way the match played out) plus MVP have repeatedly said they'd make a statement 'today' which never comes.
I'd like to hear from each team that has had a players bets cancelled personally, but hearing from anyone is a starting point. We should probably be safe in the finals since the players are on Kespa teams and have more to play for here + allkill format means all but the first games are unknown, but if nothing happens we're going to be making another of these thread next round in Proleague and potentially in GSL and Starleague as well.
MVPJeef can't be on a delayed flight forever... it's disgraceful that MVP fielded Marineking in Proleague again without making a statement after they promised one.
On April 20 2015 20:00 Swoopae wrote: The reason MVP are getting singled out here for the statement are twofold; Marineking was the most obvious throw of the cancelled bets (both line movement and the way the match played out) plus MVP have repeatedly said they'd make a statement 'today' which never comes.
I'd like to hear from each team that has had a players bets cancelled personally, but hearing from anyone is a starting point. We should probably be safe in the finals since the players are on Kespa teams and have more to play for here + allkill format means all but the first games are unknown, but if nothing happens we're going to be making another of these thread next round in Proleague and potentially in GSL and Starleague as well.
MVPJeef can't be on a delayed flight forever... it's disgraceful that MVP fielded Marineking in Proleague again without making a statement after they promised one.
Can't do much more than firing some (so far ignored) tweets to the MVP account.
On April 18 2015 18:08 MrFreeman wrote: Wow, Soulkey is on Axiom-TCM Shoutcraft team, was there any statement from Axiom representative?
It would have nothing to do with Axiom, they don't need to say anything.
Well, the post said that Soulkey may have intentionally lose a game and Soulkey also recently went to reinforce the Axiom team in Clan wars so I was curious whether there was some reaction or statement from them.
PM Total Biscuit if you want to know. I can't guarranty he's going to be nice with you though
Let's remind MVPs twitter account of a certain statement, shall we?
On April 20 2015 20:00 Swoopae wrote: it's disgraceful that MVP fielded Marineking in Proleague again without making a statement after they promised one.
They said a statement was 'coming today' AFTER they fielded him in Proleague and it never came.
I mean, if they want to say 'everything is fine there was no matchfixing we're going to keep fielding Marineking' then that's their right even if its a bit lol, but they should at least be held to making a statement.
On April 20 2015 20:00 Swoopae wrote: The reason MVP are getting singled out here for the statement are twofold; Marineking was the most obvious throw of the cancelled bets (both line movement and the way the match played out) plus MVP have repeatedly said they'd make a statement 'today' which never comes.
I'd like to hear from each team that has had a players bets cancelled personally, but hearing from anyone is a starting point. We should probably be safe in the finals since the players are on Kespa teams and have more to play for here + allkill format means all but the first games are unknown, but if nothing happens we're going to be making another of these thread next round in Proleague and potentially in GSL and Starleague as well.
MVPJeef can't be on a delayed flight forever... it's disgraceful that MVP fielded Marineking in Proleague again without making a statement after they promised one.
On April 20 2015 20:00 Swoopae wrote: The reason MVP are getting singled out here for the statement are twofold; Marineking was the most obvious throw of the cancelled bets (both line movement and the way the match played out) plus MVP have repeatedly said they'd make a statement 'today' which never comes.
I'd like to hear from each team that has had a players bets cancelled personally, but hearing from anyone is a starting point. We should probably be safe in the finals since the players are on Kespa teams and have more to play for here + allkill format means all but the first games are unknown, but if nothing happens we're going to be making another of these thread next round in Proleague and potentially in GSL and Starleague as well.
MVPJeef can't be on a delayed flight forever... it's disgraceful that MVP fielded Marineking in Proleague again without making a statement after they promised one.
On April 20 2015 20:00 Swoopae wrote: The reason MVP are getting singled out here for the statement are twofold; Marineking was the most obvious throw of the cancelled bets (both line movement and the way the match played out) plus MVP have repeatedly said they'd make a statement 'today' which never comes.
I'd like to hear from each team that has had a players bets cancelled personally, but hearing from anyone is a starting point. We should probably be safe in the finals since the players are on Kespa teams and have more to play for here + allkill format means all but the first games are unknown, but if nothing happens we're going to be making another of these thread next round in Proleague and potentially in GSL and Starleague as well.
MVPJeef can't be on a delayed flight forever... it's disgraceful that MVP fielded Marineking in Proleague again without making a statement after they promised one.
On April 20 2015 20:00 Swoopae wrote: The reason MVP are getting singled out here for the statement are twofold; Marineking was the most obvious throw of the cancelled bets (both line movement and the way the match played out) plus MVP have repeatedly said they'd make a statement 'today' which never comes.
I'd like to hear from each team that has had a players bets cancelled personally, but hearing from anyone is a starting point. We should probably be safe in the finals since the players are on Kespa teams and have more to play for here + allkill format means all but the first games are unknown, but if nothing happens we're going to be making another of these thread next round in Proleague and potentially in GSL and Starleague as well.
MVPJeef can't be on a delayed flight forever... it's disgraceful that MVP fielded Marineking in Proleague again without making a statement after they promised one.
what if his plane never lands
He flew Malaysia Airlines!? D:
I always wanted to fly through the "O"
Yeah, in old X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter style, with a joystick!
Here's the link, please go spam them, asking for an update.
For me the saddest part of this debacle isn't the fact that match fixing allegations were made - it's sadly part of life in any sport - but the total lack of any sort of response from any of the parties involved.
My subscriptions going to be due for proleague soonish. How can I in good conscience continue to support proleague when they clearly aren't doing anything to at least give the impression that they're trying to keep their house in order?
Let's just do nothing and wait for it all to blow over.
Even if an actual statement never comes, MVP even acknowledging the event shows something. Given that MarineKing was recently fielded, I'm guessing there has been internal resolution of some sort. Of course, we'd all like to know what Kespa, MVP, MarineKing, etc. have done/are doing about it, but at this point, it's likely nothing will come.
Poor MVP twitter guy, though... This is sort of like, when you're at the beach, and you feed the birds even though the signs clearly all say "DON'T FEED THE BIRDS!", and then flocks of birds come from all around for the food you're feeding. And before long, you have hundreds of birds following your silly ass. MVP twitter guy is the person who fed the birds...
On April 20 2015 21:35 Blargh wrote: Even if an actual statement never comes, MVP even acknowledging the event shows something. Given that MarineKing was recently fielded, I'm guessing there has been internal resolution of some sort. Of course, we'd all like to know what Kespa, MVP, MarineKing, etc. have done/are doing about it, but at this point, it's likely nothing will come.
Poor MVP twitter guy, though... This is sort of like, when you're at the beach, and you feed the birds even though the signs clearly all say "DON'T FEED THE BIRDS!", and then flocks of birds come from all around for the food you're feeding. And before long, you have hundreds of birds following your silly ass. MVP twitter guy is the person who fed the birds...
You're completely right. And I do hope that that feed really backfires if they don't give that statement. Hell, how hard is it to even go for standardized "was strange, we looked into it, we still trust MK" or something? This affair is all about trust. We WANT to trust! Don't we?
On April 20 2015 20:00 Swoopae wrote: The reason MVP are getting singled out here for the statement are twofold; Marineking was the most obvious throw of the cancelled bets (both line movement and the way the match played out) plus MVP have repeatedly said they'd make a statement 'today' which never comes.
I'd like to hear from each team that has had a players bets cancelled personally, but hearing from anyone is a starting point. We should probably be safe in the finals since the players are on Kespa teams and have more to play for here + allkill format means all but the first games are unknown, but if nothing happens we're going to be making another of these thread next round in Proleague and potentially in GSL and Starleague as well.
MVPJeef can't be on a delayed flight forever... it's disgraceful that MVP fielded Marineking in Proleague again without making a statement after they promised one.
what if his plane never lands
He flew Malaysia Airlines!? D:
I always wanted to fly through the "O"
Yeah, in old X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter style, with a joystick!
OMG. lol.
(btw Xwing and TF are on GoG for something like 10$)
Btw ii message the "kespa guy" to tell him that : "no response => no subscription"
Here's the link, please go spam them, asking for an update.
For me the saddest part of this debacle isn't the fact that match fixing allegations were made - it's sadly part of life in any sport - but the total lack of any sort of response from any of the parties involved.
My subscriptions going to be due for proleague soonish. How can I in good conscience continue to support proleague when they clearly aren't doing anything to at least give the impression that they're trying to keep their house in order?
Let's just do nothing and wait for it all to blow over.
Here's the link, please go spam them, asking for an update.
For me the saddest part of this debacle isn't the fact that match fixing allegations were made - it's sadly part of life in any sport - but the total lack of any sort of response from any of the parties involved.
My subscriptions going to be due for proleague soonish. How can I in good conscience continue to support proleague when they clearly aren't doing anything to at least give the impression that they're trying to keep their house in order?
Let's just do nothing and wait for it all to blow over.
Here's the link, please go spam them, asking for an update.
For me the saddest part of this debacle isn't the fact that match fixing allegations were made - it's sadly part of life in any sport - but the total lack of any sort of response from any of the parties involved.
My subscriptions going to be due for proleague soonish. How can I in good conscience continue to support proleague when they clearly aren't doing anything to at least give the impression that they're trying to keep their house in order?
Let's just do nothing and wait for it all to blow over.
Here's the link, please go spam them, asking for an update.
For me the saddest part of this debacle isn't the fact that match fixing allegations were made - it's sadly part of life in any sport - but the total lack of any sort of response from any of the parties involved.
My subscriptions going to be due for proleague soonish. How can I in good conscience continue to support proleague when they clearly aren't doing anything to at least give the impression that they're trying to keep their house in order?
Let's just do nothing and wait for it all to blow over.
Maybe you should message them this
That's exactly what i did.
Nice. Got any response yet (I'm guessing no)?
Well i send a PM to chuddinater like 1hour ago so no. I just said that : "while no response from KeSPA (even if they are just investigating) i canceled my subscription to SPL". something like that. But i won't have a response i think because afaik chudinater is just a spokesman for events.
My only worry with going after their money income is that they might just throw a scapegoat at the masses to satisfy us. Still going for my one man conspiracy theory though !
On April 18 2015 18:08 MrFreeman wrote: Wow, Soulkey is on Axiom-TCM Shoutcraft team, was there any statement from Axiom representative?
It would have nothing to do with Axiom, they don't need to say anything.
Well, the post said that Soulkey may have intentionally lose a game and Soulkey also recently went to reinforce the Axiom team in Clan wars so I was curious whether there was some reaction or statement from them.
PM Total Biscuit if you want to know. I can't guarranty he's going to be nice with you though
Well, last time an Axiom player threw a game on stream, TotalBiscuit promised he would do something about it because he was madder than any of the viewers. But the statement ended up being something like: "He's was just in *really* bad condition so quit a game he was winning and we'll try to work on his persistence." :eyeroll:
So I can't assume there will be anything substantial since anything Soulkey might have done wasn't even under their watch.
On April 20 2015 20:34 Swoopae wrote: They said a statement was 'coming today' AFTER they fielded him in Proleague and it never came.
I mean, if they want to say 'everything is fine there was no matchfixing we're going to keep fielding Marineking' then that's their right even if its a bit lol, but they should at least be held to making a statement.
What would come from giving a statement? If MK is guilty of matchfixing, MVP most certainly were unaware of it and wouldn't have any evidence to implicate him. There's no reason for them to make a statement since there's no way for them to prove he's innocent or guilty; any statement would just give attention to an issue that could only cast doubt on one of their players without any benefits of doing so.
On April 20 2015 22:34 coverpunch wrote: I miss the good old days of calling the sponsors.
Not sure if you mean it sarcastic but I totally agree. Letting MKP play in Proleague again is a shame. Everyone knows he was bought and threw. His blind defenders are about as reasonable as creationists.
Since Kespa seems to be doing nothing without pressure this seems like a good way to put pressure on them.
On April 15 2015 22:10 Gwavajuice wrote: Fact 1 : it's not someone who betted a lot of money, it's some people that betted some amount of money, said amount being enough to move the scales on game 1.
Fact 2 : Pinacle runs a business and wants esport betting to become a good banch of activity. The last thing they want is a scandal. What they want is to tell their customer : 'it is safe, it is legit, we're protecting you'
Fact 3 : there is no secret algorithm that automatically dectect a fraud in a betting line, at best an automated process spots wierd movements and in the end it's a human brain (the trader in chief -that Jonathan ‘DarKFoRcE’ Belke guy- I would suppose?) that decides if it's safe to keep the bet open or if it has to be voided.
Fact 4 : Pinacle pre-emtively canceld all bets of Prime just because they though they are weak and poor and likely to fall into match fixing.
Fact 5 : if Pinacle doesn't provide the list and amount of betters to KeSPA, GOM or korean authorities, nothing will happen, ever. The CS;GO scandal only was discovered when betters could be linked to the cheating team.
Fact 6 : Creator fucking won the whole series
In Pinacle's PR guy interview, the big line was 'the question is not 'is it possible?' but 'is it likely''
So my question is : how likely is it that Pinacle is just protecting their business by just voiding anything that is not usual, instead of taking any risk?
If they ARE just 'protecting their business' then they are risking losing a lot of custom through it. I mean, how likely are you to bet via Pinnacle when they keep voiding bets on matches because the play looks terrible? I've never used them, and certainly wont now since I'd have no confidence in placing a bet. I'll stick to my UK based (not even sure where Pinnacle are based since before these drama's I'd never heard of them) betting sites and keep sending them tickets asking them to try and expand into eSports.
Also fuck me, I lolled when they voided a San game. San is well known for being terrible on his off days and making bronze level mistakes, but then on his good days he could beat anyone. + Show Spoiler +
Quick three cheers for San, I love him!
It's almost as if Pinnacle has no actual knowledge of SC2 but are trying to run lines on it, then as soon as someone thinks 'oh, that looks bad' they void it.
I didn't even comment on the MKP one because he looked stressed as fuck, and while people could judge that is stress of throwing a match, he could just be stressed and that caused him to fuck up so much? It's a tricky judgement call imo.
Edit - And if this is all just the old demons of olden days match fixing appearing again, then it is very sad. In my heart of hearts I just hope these games are being lost by people making genuine mistakes and Pinnacle being over eager to void, rather than being actual throws.
Reading the inclination some people have in here to call sponsors and cancel subscriptions and whatnot, I am more and more leaning towards favoring Kespa's "don't talk" policy. Don't fuel the fire, hope that it dies out, because some people will just go haywire. It's probably the lesser of two evils by far. Blow this up and you got a whole new situation.
On April 18 2015 18:08 MrFreeman wrote: Wow, Soulkey is on Axiom-TCM Shoutcraft team, was there any statement from Axiom representative?
It would have nothing to do with Axiom, they don't need to say anything.
Well, the post said that Soulkey may have intentionally lose a game and Soulkey also recently went to reinforce the Axiom team in Clan wars so I was curious whether there was some reaction or statement from them.
PM Total Biscuit if you want to know. I can't guarranty he's going to be nice with you though
Well, last time an Axiom player threw a game on stream, TotalBiscuit promised he would do something about it because he was madder than any of the viewers. But the statement ended up being something like: "He's was just in *really* bad condition so quit a game he was winning and we'll try to work on his persistence." :eyeroll:
So I can't assume there will be anything substantial since anything Soulkey might have done wasn't even under their watch.
There won't be anything substantial because we don't waste time responding to insipid uninformed allegations which have their roots in the land that time forgot when NASL was still a thing.
That and why the hell would we put out a statement about another teams player?
On April 21 2015 04:51 cheekymonkey wrote: Reading the inclination some people have in here to call sponsors and cancel subscriptions and whatnot, I am more and more leaning towards favoring Kespa's "don't talk" policy. Don't fuel the fire, hope that it dies out, because some people will just go haywire. It's probably the lesser of two evils by far. Blow this up and you got a whole new situation.
On the contrary, I would be much more inclined to support Proleague if they acknowledged this issue and that they were trying to get to the bottom of it than if they just keep their head in the sand like they're doing now. I've paid for Proleague in the past but there's no way I'm spending money now to support WWEsports.
On April 18 2015 18:08 MrFreeman wrote: Wow, Soulkey is on Axiom-TCM Shoutcraft team, was there any statement from Axiom representative?
It would have nothing to do with Axiom, they don't need to say anything.
Well, the post said that Soulkey may have intentionally lose a game and Soulkey also recently went to reinforce the Axiom team in Clan wars so I was curious whether there was some reaction or statement from them.
PM Total Biscuit if you want to know. I can't guarranty he's going to be nice with you though
Well, last time an Axiom player threw a game on stream, TotalBiscuit promised he would do something about it because he was madder than any of the viewers. But the statement ended up being something like: "He's was just in *really* bad condition so quit a game he was winning and we'll try to work on his persistence." :eyeroll:
So I can't assume there will be anything substantial since anything Soulkey might have done wasn't even under their watch.
There won't be anything substantial because we don't waste time responding to insipid uninformed allegations which have their roots in the land that time forgot when NASL was still a thing.
That and why the hell would we put out a statement about another teams player?
I actually agree with your second point, but was still bitter over the incident I'm talking about, which was much more recent than NASL and getting off-topic so I'll drop the subject.
On April 21 2015 04:51 cheekymonkey wrote: Reading the inclination some people have in here to call sponsors and cancel subscriptions and whatnot, I am more and more leaning towards favoring Kespa's "don't talk" policy. Don't fuel the fire, hope that it dies out, because some people will just go haywire. It's probably the lesser of two evils by far. Blow this up and you got a whole new situation.
When people act like ostriches, things usually get worse
On April 21 2015 04:51 cheekymonkey wrote: Reading the inclination some people have in here to call sponsors and cancel subscriptions and whatnot, I am more and more leaning towards favoring Kespa's "don't talk" policy. Don't fuel the fire, hope that it dies out, because some people will just go haywire. It's probably the lesser of two evils by far. Blow this up and you got a whole new situation.
On the contrary, I would be much more inclined to support Proleague if they acknowledged this issue and that they were trying to get to the bottom of it than if they just keep their head in the sand like they're doing now. I've paid for Proleague in the past but there's no way I'm spending money now to support WWEsports.
Well, that's you, but what about the hundreds of people who are going to disagree with their statement or stance on the issue whatever it will be?
On April 21 2015 04:51 cheekymonkey wrote: Reading the inclination some people have in here to call sponsors and cancel subscriptions and whatnot, I am more and more leaning towards favoring Kespa's "don't talk" policy. Don't fuel the fire, hope that it dies out, because some people will just go haywire. It's probably the lesser of two evils by far. Blow this up and you got a whole new situation.
On the contrary, I would be much more inclined to support Proleague if they acknowledged this issue and that they were trying to get to the bottom of it than if they just keep their head in the sand like they're doing now. I've paid for Proleague in the past but there's no way I'm spending money now to support WWEsports.
Well, that's you, but what about the hundreds of people who are going to disagree with their statement or stance on the issue whatever it will be?
What? I think the opinion "bribery should be swept under the rug" is pretty exclusive among fans of any sport or esport.
On April 21 2015 04:51 cheekymonkey wrote: Reading the inclination some people have in here to call sponsors and cancel subscriptions and whatnot, I am more and more leaning towards favoring Kespa's "don't talk" policy. Don't fuel the fire, hope that it dies out, because some people will just go haywire. It's probably the lesser of two evils by far. Blow this up and you got a whole new situation.
On the contrary, I would be much more inclined to support Proleague if they acknowledged this issue and that they were trying to get to the bottom of it than if they just keep their head in the sand like they're doing now. I've paid for Proleague in the past but there's no way I'm spending money now to support WWEsports.
Well, that's you, but what about the hundreds of people who are going to disagree with their statement or stance on the issue whatever it will be?
With an issue of this magnitude, not making a statement is a statement in its own right, though. I would maybe agree or be okay with not making a statement if this was an isolated incident, or a much smaller issue than it was, but it's naive to think that this will not continue to be an issue. The actions of people involved with these matches in the Korean scene indicate that they don't consider this to be an issue. Kespa keeping their head in the sand and hoping that this blows over is disrespectful to fans and viewers who expect Kespa to provide some level of confidence that the product they put out/watch over is legitimate.
On April 21 2015 04:51 cheekymonkey wrote: Reading the inclination some people have in here to call sponsors and cancel subscriptions and whatnot, I am more and more leaning towards favoring Kespa's "don't talk" policy. Don't fuel the fire, hope that it dies out, because some people will just go haywire. It's probably the lesser of two evils by far. Blow this up and you got a whole new situation.
When people act like ostriches, things usually get worse
I've read some internet "the more you know thing" which said that ostriches actually don't put their heads in sand.
TL; DR - We asked MKP, he denied it, we believe him. But because we thought fans would be unsatisfied with that, we asked him a few more times.
I mean, could they at least explain how he missed the spine crawler?
How he wasn't aware of that specific cheese? I know Flash fell for it afterwards and immediately said - I wish I'd watch proleague last week then I would have known it was coming.
I mean, Wolf knew the cheese immediately when Byul sent his drone out what's MKP's excuse? Same as Flash's? Something else?
We didn't get any answers at all, just the same denials and excuses about mental state and wanting to win...
On April 21 2015 08:16 Wuster wrote: [...] I mean, Wolf knew the cheese immediately when Byul sent his drone out what's MKP's excuse? Same as Flash's? Something else? [...]
What? Haha... of all suspicious things, you pick the drone that the caster with full vision saw but that MarineKing can't see that early in the fog of war?
That's not my point at all, rather that Wolf had that cheese in the forefront of his mind enough that the minute something weird happened he was ready to let us know pretty confidently what was going to happen.
MKP saw a few weird things long before his rocks were broken (no natural, late pool, no hidden gold bases, the blip on his minimap by his rocks). And somehow none of it triggered the warning bells.
I wish Flash hadn't fallen for this cheese, then I could argue that MKP shouldn't have. But Flash did and gave an explanation for why, MKP didn't.
Glad mvp made the statement but i dont exactly feel like they did a thorough investigation and it was basically a case of we asked him he denied it lets move on. I appreciate them moving the captaincy to another player but this was not exactly a legitimate investigation. Still at least they made a statement no other teams with players under suspicion have and neither has kespa. Personally im still convinced marineking threw the match with 99%ish certainty but everyone can draw their own conclusions i guess. This is going to keep happening though until steps are taken to punish the match fixers and we are going to be back here in a few days weeks or months with another situation.
On May 07 2015 20:06 Alucen-Will- wrote: I don't see anything in the articles about which matches they are referring to.. I imagine it must be the Code A match against Creator..
it's the one with pinnacle suspending the bet yeah, could've been something else. It's good to see some action taken but I really hope it doesn't make "dead game" a reality :'(
On May 07 2015 20:06 Alucen-Will- wrote: I don't see anything in the articles about which matches they are referring to.. I imagine it must be the Code A match against Creator..
it's the one with pinnacle suspending the bet yeah, could've been something else. It's good to see some action taken but I really hope it doesn't make "dead game" a reality :'(
Not really..Sc2 is very popular at the moment (I believe at its peak) in Korea.
It's outside of Korea where the lack of popularity/tournaments is the issue.
On May 07 2015 20:06 Alucen-Will- wrote: I don't see anything in the articles about which matches they are referring to.. I imagine it must be the Code A match against Creator..
it's the one with pinnacle suspending the bet yeah, could've been something else. It's good to see some action taken but I really hope it doesn't make "dead game" a reality :'(
Not really..Sc2 is very popular at the moment (I believe at its peak) in Korea.
It's outside of Korea where the lack of popularity/tournaments is the issue.
it's indeed on the rise and doing quite well in Korea but a huge betting scandal could just destroy every effort done so far. I might have failed to exprim myself properly the first time :'(
On May 07 2015 20:06 Alucen-Will- wrote: I don't see anything in the articles about which matches they are referring to.. I imagine it must be the Code A match against Creator..
it's the one with pinnacle suspending the bet yeah, could've been something else. It's good to see some action taken but I really hope it doesn't make "dead game" a reality :'(
Not really..Sc2 is very popular at the moment (I believe at its peak) in Korea.
It's outside of Korea where the lack of popularity/tournaments is the issue.
it's indeed on the rise and doing quite well in Korea but a huge betting scandal could just destroy every effort done so far. I might have failed to exprim myself properly the first time :'(
Yes this is a very serious issue. I kind of hope KeSPA drops the iron fist on this issue; With a lot of players rejoining and participating in proleague I think this may be the case.
KeSPA has made a lot of strides lately and I do hope they sort this (very serious) issue out. I think they will.
On May 07 2015 20:06 Alucen-Will- wrote: I don't see anything in the articles about which matches they are referring to.. I imagine it must be the Code A match against Creator..
it's the one with pinnacle suspending the bet yeah, could've been something else. It's good to see some action taken but I really hope it doesn't make "dead game" a reality :'(
Not really..Sc2 is very popular at the moment (I believe at its peak) in Korea.
It's outside of Korea where the lack of popularity/tournaments is the issue.
it's indeed on the rise and doing quite well in Korea but a huge betting scandal could just destroy every effort done so far. I might have failed to exprim myself properly the first time :'(
Yes this is a very serious issue. I kind of hope KeSPA drops the iron fist on this issue; With a lot of players rejoining and participating in proleague I think this may be the case.
KeSPA has made a lot of strides lately and I do hope they sort this (very serious) issue out. I think they will.
I think they won't for that exact reason. I think they made efforts to solve the situation quietly, but nothing substantial. Here's to hoping though!
On May 07 2015 20:06 Alucen-Will- wrote: I don't see anything in the articles about which matches they are referring to.. I imagine it must be the Code A match against Creator..
it's the one with pinnacle suspending the bet yeah, could've been something else. It's good to see some action taken but I really hope it doesn't make "dead game" a reality :'(
Not really..Sc2 is very popular at the moment (I believe at its peak) in Korea.
It's outside of Korea where the lack of popularity/tournaments is the issue.
it's indeed on the rise and doing quite well in Korea but a huge betting scandal could just destroy every effort done so far. I might have failed to exprim myself properly the first time :'(
Yes this is a very serious issue. I kind of hope KeSPA drops the iron fist on this issue; With a lot of players rejoining and participating in proleague I think this may be the case.
KeSPA has made a lot of strides lately and I do hope they sort this (very serious) issue out. I think they will.
I think they won't for that exact reason. I think they made efforts to solve the situation quietly, but nothing substantial. Here's to hoping though!
In that past there has been justifiable skepticism (more than justifiable. KeSPA jail is a an awful place to reside) but In this case I think their strides may show in dealing with this sort of thing..
They've been taking the subject very seriously but they've been hesitant to make a statement. As you can imagine, ongoing investigations usually don't receive announcements because it can have an effect on the investigation.
However, KeSPA have been doing something, and they aren't keeping silent because they are just wishing it away. They are waiting for the right time to make an announcement.
I suppose this is as good a time as any to say that KeSPA have been very cooperative with me about answering questions about the situation. However, this new development means that they'd like to wait until they get more info on this new matter so that any such announcement can be up to date. You will all hear from KeSPA soon.
On May 07 2015 20:24 lichter wrote: They've been taking the subject very seriously but they've been hesitant to make a statement. As you can imagine, ongoing investigations usually don't receive announcements because it can have an effect on the investigation.
However, KeSPA have been doing something, and they aren't keeping silent because they are just wishing it away. They are waiting for the right time to make an announcement.
I suppose this is as good a time as any to say that KeSPA have been very cooperative with me about answering questions about the situation. However, this new development means that they'd like to wait until they get more info on this new matter so that any such announcement can be up to date. You will all hear from KeSPA soon.
thanks for the update litcher you still need votes I suppose :D ?
On May 07 2015 20:24 lichter wrote: They've been taking the subject very seriously but they've been hesitant to make a statement. As you can imagine, ongoing investigations usually don't receive announcements because it can have an effect on the investigation.
However, KeSPA have been doing something, and they aren't keeping silent because they are just wishing it away. They are waiting for the right time to make an announcement.
I suppose this is as good a time as any to say that KeSPA have been very cooperative with me about answering questions about the situation. However, this new development means that they'd like to wait until they get more info on this new matter so that any such announcement can be up to date. You will all hear from KeSPA soon.
thanks for the update litcher you still need votes I suppose :D ?
savings esports is my job, i dont pander for votes :p
On May 07 2015 20:24 lichter wrote: They've been taking the subject very seriously but they've been hesitant to make a statement. As you can imagine, ongoing investigations usually don't receive announcements because it can have an effect on the investigation.
However, KeSPA have been doing something, and they aren't keeping silent because they are just wishing it away. They are waiting for the right time to make an announcement.
I suppose this is as good a time as any to say that KeSPA have been very cooperative with me about answering questions about the situation. However, this new development means that they'd like to wait until they get more info on this new matter so that any such announcement can be up to date. You will all hear from KeSPA soon.
thanks for the update litcher you still need votes I suppose :D ?
savings esports is my job, i dont pander for votes :p
saving esport is being an awesome contributor anyway
On May 07 2015 20:24 lichter wrote: They've been taking the subject very seriously but they've been hesitant to make a statement. As you can imagine, ongoing investigations usually don't receive announcements because it can have an effect on the investigation.
However, KeSPA have been doing something, and they aren't keeping silent because they are just wishing it away. They are waiting for the right time to make an announcement.
I suppose this is as good a time as any to say that KeSPA have been very cooperative with me about answering questions about the situation. However, this new development means that they'd like to wait until they get more info on this new matter so that any such announcement can be up to date. You will all hear from KeSPA soon.
On May 07 2015 20:24 lichter wrote: They've been taking the subject very seriously but they've been hesitant to make a statement. As you can imagine, ongoing investigations usually don't receive announcements because it can have an effect on the investigation.
However, KeSPA have been doing something, and they aren't keeping silent because they are just wishing it away. They are waiting for the right time to make an announcement.
I suppose this is as good a time as any to say that KeSPA have been very cooperative with me about answering questions about the situation. However, this new development means that they'd like to wait until they get more info on this new matter so that any such announcement can be up to date. You will all hear from KeSPA soon.
This makes sense and was always my hope. The fact that Naver released an article about match fixing and police and Kespa force Kespa to actually say something. So I'm not at all surprised they made a statement. Of course statement implies that actual fixed matches don't happen so it's still damage control. We'll see what happens when they can confirm player involvement though (I do imagine it's much, much easier to catch brokers/gamblers when players turn down the offers).
On April 18 2015 18:08 MrFreeman wrote: Wow, Soulkey is on Axiom-TCM Shoutcraft team, was there any statement from Axiom representative?
It would have nothing to do with Axiom, they don't need to say anything.
Well, the post said that Soulkey may have intentionally lose a game and Soulkey also recently went to reinforce the Axiom team in Clan wars so I was curious whether there was some reaction or statement from them.
PM Total Biscuit if you want to know. I can't guarranty he's going to be nice with you though
The cooperation with him was not continued, so that would be a rendundant question .
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