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On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote:
I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out?
No, they're not doing this to protect their money. Objectively they would be thrilled to have a pile of money on Creator as a substantial favourite in map 1 since objectively Soulkey is a small to moderate favourite in each map. Also, since Soulkey was the favourite for the series as a whole, they would have a hedge there anyway. Also, the amount of money is completely trivial to Pinnacle. The size of the bets relative to the action Pinnacle takes on major sports each day would be the equivalent of a couple of cents to you or me, certainly not worth risking their reputation over.
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On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote:
The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen:
1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash.
2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money.
3. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed, the rest enjoy the drama or don't care LOL
So... "it's rigged, but carry on"?
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On April 15 2015 22:56 Deathstar wrote:
Why is pinnacle always the one place we hear news from? is it where the majority of sc2 betting takes place?
Among the non-Korean betting community, yes. It is the largest and most reputable sportsbook in the world, with a multi-billion dollar market share.
The Korean betting community is mostly underground illegal bookies, because betting is illegal in Korea.
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Austria18725 Posts
On April 15 2015 23:09 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 23:05 sharkie wrote:
Since the games turned out to be normal I would say this was a false alarm People crave drama. And people don't think before they start this kind of stuff. Why would soulkey match-fix, he's already made 100k plus from SC2 and he stands to make nothing from this. And I will fucking fight anyone to the death who accuses Creator of colluding in matchfixing. You could hold a gun to his head and tell him to lose a game and he'd say "fuck you I'm gonna win everything because Im going to be the best." Call common sense nativity if you want. But the court of public opinion is a court of bullshit
Savior made much more money than SK, had more to lose than SK and he still FIXED.
That's no reason lol
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On April 15 2015 23:07 Exstasy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 23:01 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 22:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 15 2015 22:57 maGicc wrote:On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote:
I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out? 1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place. Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no? The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately. I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have?
People will tell you that the gambling company is voiding bets to protect their reputation but anyone with half a brain knows that isn't true because gambling institutions don't run on reputations, they run on providing an outlet for gamblers to throw away money. If they see they're going to take a huge loss they're going to make sure they don't.
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On April 15 2015 23:11 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 23:07 Exstasy wrote:On April 15 2015 23:01 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 22:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 15 2015 22:57 maGicc wrote:On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote:
I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out? 1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place. Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no? The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately. I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have? People will tell you that the gambling company is voiding bets to protect their reputation but anyone with half a brain knows that isn't true because gambling institutions don't run on reputations, they run on providing an outlet for gamblers to throw away money. If they see they're going to take a huge loss they're going to make sure they don't.
Maybe you confuse your back hound betting brooker next door with a billion dollar company.
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So, now can we officially call competitive SC2 a new form of WWE?
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On April 15 2015 23:09 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote:
The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen:
1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash.
2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money.
3. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed, the rest enjoy the drama or don't care LOL So... "it's rigged, but carry on"?
The Elephant in the Room did warn us that competition was a farce. 
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On April 15 2015 22:46 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 22:43 Swoopae wrote:On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote:
I just don't care anymore This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it. No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense.
If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite.
This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Wake the fuck up.
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On April 15 2015 23:11 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 23:07 Exstasy wrote:On April 15 2015 23:01 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 22:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 15 2015 22:57 maGicc wrote:On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote:
I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out? 1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place. Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no? The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately. I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have? People will tell you that the gambling company is voiding bets to protect their reputation but anyone with half a brain knows that isn't true because gambling institutions don't run on reputations, they run on providing an outlet for gamblers to throw away money. If they see they're going to take a huge loss they're going to make sure they don't.
Exactly I mean how does voiding a bet save their reputation, if they didn't today no one would've questioned this game.
It's true that when betting on a sport/game exists their is inevitably the potential for matchfixing. But if the only evidence is betting lines, I'm not buying it. What sort of evidence was there for the BW matchfixing scandal?
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On April 15 2015 23:16 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 23:11 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 23:07 Exstasy wrote:On April 15 2015 23:01 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 22:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 15 2015 22:57 maGicc wrote:On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote:
I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out? 1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place. Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no? The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately. I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have? People will tell you that the gambling company is voiding bets to protect their reputation but anyone with half a brain knows that isn't true because gambling institutions don't run on reputations, they run on providing an outlet for gamblers to throw away money. If they see they're going to take a huge loss they're going to make sure they don't. Maybe you confuse your back hound betting brooker next door with a billion dollar company.
A casino with a reputation for making sure every patron loses, and breaking limbs of anyone who says anything about it can still be a multi-million dollar business...but that is nothing like this at all...open your damn eyes
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On April 15 2015 22:59 Exstasy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 22:57 maGicc wrote:On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote:
I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out? 1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place. Ok so what is leading them to void the bet, simply that an unusual amount of bets are being made one way?
Yes
In Marineking vs Byul for example, Marineking started out as a just under a 2-1 underdog in a best of 1. He closed at more than an 8-1 underdog in a best of 1. He then scouted incoming cheese and did nothing for over a minute while it was on his minimap and creep was coming into his base, then threw down a third CC with creep inside his base. Multiple pros confirmed it would be impossible for a proleague caliber player to miss that, and the video showed his eyes looking towards where the minimap should be, plus his lack of reaction was ridiculous. He was also acting very strangely both before and after the match to the degree that the commentators mentioned it on the stream, which would make sense if he was nervous because it was his first time fixing a match.
San vs Dark; San was a PvZ killer at the time who had 2-0'd Dark just one week before. He started out at even money and closed as a 5-1 underdog in a best of 1. He then lost his mothership core to an offcreep queen, did an all in build but never attacked, then made a terrible blink forward into hydralisks in the final battle.
Innovation vs Super map 1 - Innovation was one of the best players in the world at the time. He was a substantial favourite to win the series, but was close to a 4-1 underdog in Map 1 specifically, while remaining a favourite in the best of 3 series. He lost map 1, then won the series.
Super vs Dream, Super was a small underdog for the series as a whole, but an enormous underdog for Map 1 specifically. He lost map 1 then went on to lose the series.
Soulkey vs Creator - Soulkey was a close to a 3-1 favourite to win to win the series as a whole, but Creator was close to a 4-1 favourite to win the first map specifically, while remaining an underdog to win the whole series, Creator won Map 1.
Bunny vs Yoda - Yoda was a small favourite and went to being a huge underdog. The betting lines didn't get cancelled here, but Bunny became a huge favourite and then won a mildly suspicious game with Yoda throwing away multiple banshees from memory (i'd need to rewatch)
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On April 15 2015 23:17 bananafone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 22:46 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 22:43 Swoopae wrote:On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote:
I just don't care anymore This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it. No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense. If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite. This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Wake the fuck up.
You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
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Austria18725 Posts
On April 15 2015 22:38 Musicus wrote:So sad, why must this happen to our game .
It happens in anything competitive...
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On April 15 2015 23:19 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 23:16 Clonester wrote:On April 15 2015 23:11 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 23:07 Exstasy wrote:On April 15 2015 23:01 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 22:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 15 2015 22:57 maGicc wrote:On April 15 2015 22:52 Exstasy wrote:
I have a limited understanding of betting but are Pinnacle (or any betting agency for that matter) not just protecting there own money when they void bets? i.e they think soulkey will win but when they see creator getting a lot of betting support and he wins they void it because they have to pay out? 1) They voided the bets a long time before its even started. 2) The amount of money they will "have to pay out" will probably be below 0.1% or even way less of their daily volume 3) If they think "Soulkey will win" (which is already the absurd statement, but lets roll with it), they would be happy to see a lot of money coming on Creator in the first place. Aren't these betting lines and odds created that way, so the site ALWAYS makes money no matter what? I think that's how it works, no? The first rule of gambling is that you never bet against the house and they house ALWAYS, and I do mean ALWAYS makes money. If there is any chance they will take even a dollar loss, they will stop all activity related to it immediately. I'm still reading about betting lines etc so i get a better picture but I'm pretty sure it boils down to this, If we're losing money void the bet. What other motivation do they have? People will tell you that the gambling company is voiding bets to protect their reputation but anyone with half a brain knows that isn't true because gambling institutions don't run on reputations, they run on providing an outlet for gamblers to throw away money. If they see they're going to take a huge loss they're going to make sure they don't. Maybe you confuse your back hound betting brooker next door with a billion dollar company. A casino with a reputation for making sure every patron loses, and breaking limbs of anyone who says anything about it can still be a multi-million dollar business...but that is nothing like this at all...open your damn eyes
Actually Pinnacle welcomes winning bettors and professional sportsbettors even to sharpen their lines so they have the biggest limits on the market once the lines are sharp. They do not ban winning bettors like most sportsbooks.
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On April 15 2015 23:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 23:09 OtherWorld wrote:On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote:
The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then).
Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix.
A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose.
Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not.
Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen:
1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash.
2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money.
3. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed, the rest enjoy the drama or don't care LOL So... "it's rigged, but carry on"? The Elephant in the Room did warn us that competition was a farce.
intrigue knew about this all along !
e : quickly rereading this article, there's a quote from Mvp that is funnily sad (or sadly funny I guess) here :
"I don't know if it's okay to say this, but in the end pros play to make money."
e² : holy shit I had forgotten that MarineKing played Protoss
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no way soulkey loses to creator
obviously tcm isnt paying soulkey enough
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On April 15 2015 23:20 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 23:17 bananafone wrote:On April 15 2015 22:46 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 22:43 Swoopae wrote:On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote:
I just don't care anymore This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it. No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense. If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite. This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Wake the fuck up. You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever.
No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
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Pinnacle don't make any money from "winning bets". They make money from taking a cut, as all bookies do. All they do is match punters up against each other. That is why you can't stake a high amount of money until the lines are shaped.
Pinnacle is no different from a casino.
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On April 15 2015 23:21 Swoopae wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 23:20 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 23:17 bananafone wrote:On April 15 2015 22:46 LongShot27 wrote:On April 15 2015 22:43 Swoopae wrote:On April 15 2015 22:41 LongShot27 wrote:
I just don't care anymore This is why match fixing will continue. If we don't care, the game is dead. If we do care, we can apply pressure on Kespa to investigate. A few articles, a few tweets, it doesn't take much effort to actually do something about it. No I don't care because this wasn't match fixing, nothing in this match was suspect whatsoever but this godforsaken excuse for a community is believing a bunch of gamblers over their common sense. If you we're to throw a match how would you do it? Clearly a not very obvious way would be good. Everyone who has ever played starcraft have probably thrown lots of games by accident and subsequently raged. Throwing games in a non-suspect fashion isn't hard and it's done all the time by people trying their best to do the exact opposite. This community is not using stupid excuses to witch hunt and forgetting about common sense. At this point probability answers the question for you. I'd suggest you go pick up a book about statistics and probability if you don't understand what is going on with the bet voiding. To simplify massively and make it easy to understand; each of these voided bets can be seen as an extraodinary event (like rolling ten sixes in a row with a normal die). In and of themselves the voided bets are very suspicious, but its hard to conclude that something weird is definetely going on. The same thing is true for the die example. Rolling ten sixes in a row is going to happen if you roll enough times, its just how probability works. However probability also says that if it happens enough times within a short span of time then maybe its time to check if the die is loaded. If someone rolls ten sixes in a row, goes to the toilet, comes back and rolls ten sixes in a row again you'll start to suspect that something is going on. Especially if you had money on that not happening. That is just common sense. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Wake the fuck up. You. Have. Zero. Proof. Whatsoever. No, there is plenty of proof, you're just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
I'm done. Everyone has already made up their mind and there is no reason to argue anymore.
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EPT
