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MVP's Statement on MarineKing - Page 27

Forum Index > SC2 General
566 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 25 26 27 28 29 Next All
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28536 Posts
April 23 2015 10:01 GMT
#521
On April 23 2015 18:45 DJHelium wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 08:59 bypLy wrote:
i think its time for Helium to create a new thread where all information is structured and gathered


How did I get responsible for this? :D

But actually I could do that, or at least update this op. A bit busy this week but next week should be fine. If anyone else wants to do it feel free.

NO! It has to be you!

Maybe the best thing is to make an overall match fixing thread if (when) the next void happens
I Protoss winner, could it be?
fruity.
Profile Joined April 2012
England1711 Posts
April 23 2015 11:03 GMT
#522
On April 23 2015 18:32 Hot_Ice wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2015 07:34 boxerfred wrote:
They should've released the replay.

This.


KESPA rules don't allow it. In the same way that Blizzard don't release WCS stuff until post season.

My thoughts on this, and the vod you can find here

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/483522-mvps-statement-on-marineking?page=7#124

I want to ask the wider community however, if they know of ONE pro level player who's come out in defence of MK?
Ex Zerg learning Terran. A bold move.
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
April 23 2015 12:35 GMT
#523
There's one very simple fact that MKP's valiant defenders don't seem to grasp.

This isn't about MKP anymore.

For every one idiot who says that MKP should be impeached, disbarred from Congress, thrown in prison and waterboarded, I see a hundred other posters saying simply that KOREAN SC2 IS IN A VERY BAD PLACE. That's what matters. Take a minute away from worrying about what our pitchforks are doing to MKP's career, and consider that when Korean SC2 goes belly-up, because, when match-fixing is finally exposed, it's so huge that it drags EVERYBODY down... MKP's career will end, too. And so will everyone else's. Those are the stakes we're dealing with right now.

I couldn't possibly care less about what happens to MKP right now. If he's innocent, fantastic. If he's guilty, he's just one symptom of a festering infection that is much bigger than him. I personally wouldn't glean much satisfaction from seeing him thrown behind bars or fined $100,000 or otherwise turned into a scapegoat.

For the truth to come to light, KeSPA needs to be pressured into a public investigation. They need to know that the sort of 'compelling evidence' that MVP presented in their defense of MKP will not cut it.

With no ill will to MKP, MVP throwing him under the bus would have been the best possible outcome for the scene, because it would have forced KeSPA's hand.

What we got -- a biased endorsement of MKP that may or may not be meaningless -- not only doesn't help him in the eyes of skeptics, but it means that regardless of his guilt or innocence, match fixing will go on undeterred for the foreseeable future. That's the bigger issue.

If you don't see that -- if you're still preoccupied with making sure that no one is saying that we have "conclusive 100% proof" that MKP is guilty, which we obviously don't -- then you're not seeing the forest for the trees, you're missing the real conversation, and you're completely missing the gravity of the situation in Korea.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anything that's in our power to do other than continue to be annoying about this and not let it get brushed aside.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28536 Posts
April 23 2015 13:05 GMT
#524
On April 23 2015 21:35 pure.Wasted wrote:
There's one very simple fact that MKP's valiant defenders don't seem to grasp.

This isn't about MKP anymore.

For every one idiot who says that MKP should be impeached, disbarred from Congress, thrown in prison and waterboarded, I see a hundred other posters saying simply that KOREAN SC2 IS IN A VERY BAD PLACE. That's what matters. Take a minute away from worrying about what our pitchforks are doing to MKP's career, and consider that when Korean SC2 goes belly-up, because, when match-fixing is finally exposed, it's so huge that it drags EVERYBODY down... MKP's career will end, too. And so will everyone else's. Those are the stakes we're dealing with right now.

I couldn't possibly care less about what happens to MKP right now. If he's innocent, fantastic. If he's guilty, he's just one symptom of a festering infection that is much bigger than him. I personally wouldn't glean much satisfaction from seeing him thrown behind bars or fined $100,000 or otherwise turned into a scapegoat.

For the truth to come to light, KeSPA needs to be pressured into a public investigation. They need to know that the sort of 'compelling evidence' that MVP presented in their defense of MKP will not cut it.

With no ill will to MKP, MVP throwing him under the bus would have been the best possible outcome for the scene, because it would have forced KeSPA's hand.

What we got -- a biased endorsement of MKP that may or may not be meaningless -- not only doesn't help him in the eyes of skeptics, but it means that regardless of his guilt or innocence, match fixing will go on undeterred for the foreseeable future. That's the bigger issue.

If you don't see that -- if you're still preoccupied with making sure that no one is saying that we have "conclusive 100% proof" that MKP is guilty, which we obviously don't -- then you're not seeing the forest for the trees, you're missing the real conversation, and you're completely missing the gravity of the situation in Korea.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anything that's in our power to do other than continue to be annoying about this and not let it get brushed aside.

Good post. I wouldn't be surprised btw if MVP's decision to defend MK was done in consultation with KeSPA..
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Garsecg
Profile Joined September 2014
United States129 Posts
April 23 2015 13:14 GMT
#525
On April 23 2015 22:05 Penev wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 21:35 pure.Wasted wrote:
There's one very simple fact that MKP's valiant defenders don't seem to grasp.

This isn't about MKP anymore.

For every one idiot who says that MKP should be impeached, disbarred from Congress, thrown in prison and waterboarded, I see a hundred other posters saying simply that KOREAN SC2 IS IN A VERY BAD PLACE. That's what matters. Take a minute away from worrying about what our pitchforks are doing to MKP's career, and consider that when Korean SC2 goes belly-up, because, when match-fixing is finally exposed, it's so huge that it drags EVERYBODY down... MKP's career will end, too. And so will everyone else's. Those are the stakes we're dealing with right now.

I couldn't possibly care less about what happens to MKP right now. If he's innocent, fantastic. If he's guilty, he's just one symptom of a festering infection that is much bigger than him. I personally wouldn't glean much satisfaction from seeing him thrown behind bars or fined $100,000 or otherwise turned into a scapegoat.

For the truth to come to light, KeSPA needs to be pressured into a public investigation. They need to know that the sort of 'compelling evidence' that MVP presented in their defense of MKP will not cut it.

With no ill will to MKP, MVP throwing him under the bus would have been the best possible outcome for the scene, because it would have forced KeSPA's hand.

What we got -- a biased endorsement of MKP that may or may not be meaningless -- not only doesn't help him in the eyes of skeptics, but it means that regardless of his guilt or innocence, match fixing will go on undeterred for the foreseeable future. That's the bigger issue.

If you don't see that -- if you're still preoccupied with making sure that no one is saying that we have "conclusive 100% proof" that MKP is guilty, which we obviously don't -- then you're not seeing the forest for the trees, you're missing the real conversation, and you're completely missing the gravity of the situation in Korea.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anything that's in our power to do other than continue to be annoying about this and not let it get brushed aside.

Good post. I wouldn't be surprised btw if MVP's decision to defend MK was done in consultation with KeSPA..


I think I would be more surprised to learn MVP didn't consult KeSPA before releasing their statement. Also wanted to echo what a great post pure.Wasted wrote.
Samx
Profile Joined August 2013
Singapore149 Posts
April 23 2015 13:22 GMT
#526
Is there anything that us as a community can do to pressure the organizations involved that this is unacceptable? I don't think talking about it here have much effect.
Kespa don't seem to care. How about blizzard? Will they take a more serious view on this and pressure Kespa?
Our enemies are a legion and STILL you procrastinate
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28536 Posts
April 23 2015 13:31 GMT
#527
On April 23 2015 22:22 Samx wrote:
Is there anything that us as a community can do to pressure the organizations involved that this is unacceptable? I don't think talking about it here have much effect.
Kespa don't seem to care. How about blizzard? Will they take a more serious view on this and pressure Kespa?

Well, there's one thing but I'm not sure if we want to go down that road
I Protoss winner, could it be?
fruity.
Profile Joined April 2012
England1711 Posts
April 23 2015 13:34 GMT
#528
So match fixing will kill SC2 like it did with broodwar? Right.

NaDa had 22k viewers 3 days ago.

Match fixing allegations will and are bad for the scene, but to imply it will kill it. Sorry, not gonna happen.
Ex Zerg learning Terran. A bold move.
showstealer1829
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Australia3123 Posts
April 23 2015 13:39 GMT
#529
On April 23 2015 22:34 fruity. wrote:
So match fixing will kill SC2 like it did with broodwar? Right.

NaDa had 22k viewers 3 days ago.

Match fixing allegations will and are bad for the scene, but to imply it will kill it. Sorry, not gonna happen.


Implying of course that a famous BW player returning after his military service is ANY indication of the scene as a whole
There is no understanding. There is only Choya. Choya is the way. Choya is Love. Choya is Life. Has is the Light in the Protoss Dark and Nightmare is his chosen Acolyte
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28536 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-23 13:41:43
April 23 2015 13:41 GMT
#530
God dammit wrong thread again
I Protoss winner, could it be?
fruity.
Profile Joined April 2012
England1711 Posts
April 23 2015 13:45 GMT
#531
On April 23 2015 22:39 showstealer1829 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 22:34 fruity. wrote:
So match fixing will kill SC2 like it did with broodwar? Right.

NaDa had 22k viewers 3 days ago.

Match fixing allegations will and are bad for the scene, but to imply it will kill it. Sorry, not gonna happen.


Implying of course that a famous BW player returning after his military service is ANY indication of the scene as a whole


You're missing the point that broodwar had a bigger scandal over match fixing, and is still going strong. Go look up hwasin.

Ex Zerg learning Terran. A bold move.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28536 Posts
April 23 2015 13:51 GMT
#532
On April 23 2015 22:45 fruity. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 22:39 showstealer1829 wrote:
On April 23 2015 22:34 fruity. wrote:
So match fixing will kill SC2 like it did with broodwar? Right.

NaDa had 22k viewers 3 days ago.

Match fixing allegations will and are bad for the scene, but to imply it will kill it. Sorry, not gonna happen.


Implying of course that a famous BW player returning after his military service is ANY indication of the scene as a whole


You're missing the point that broodwar had a bigger scandal over match fixing, and is still going strong. Go look up hwasin.


Broodwar was also A LOT bigger than SC2. But I don't really get your original post tbh, unless you mean that KeSPA is the "implier". I think most people here want an investigation asap to PREVENT SC2 going down
I Protoss winner, could it be?
showstealer1829
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Australia3123 Posts
April 23 2015 13:51 GMT
#533
On April 23 2015 22:45 fruity. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 22:39 showstealer1829 wrote:
On April 23 2015 22:34 fruity. wrote:
So match fixing will kill SC2 like it did with broodwar? Right.

NaDa had 22k viewers 3 days ago.

Match fixing allegations will and are bad for the scene, but to imply it will kill it. Sorry, not gonna happen.


Implying of course that a famous BW player returning after his military service is ANY indication of the scene as a whole


You're missing the point that broodwar had a bigger scandal over match fixing, and is still going strong. Go look up hwasin.



No you're missing the point. NaDa is one person. He's not the scene.
There is no understanding. There is only Choya. Choya is the way. Choya is Love. Choya is Life. Has is the Light in the Protoss Dark and Nightmare is his chosen Acolyte
fruity.
Profile Joined April 2012
England1711 Posts
April 23 2015 13:58 GMT
#534
On April 23 2015 22:51 Penev wrote:
Broodwar was also A LOT bigger than SC2. But I don't really get your original post tbh, unless you mean that KeSPA is the "implier". I think most people here want an investigation asap to PREVENT SC2 going down


My point is, that even if a thorough investigation was done (which for all we know could be happening, though I frankly doubt this) It's not going to kill Starcraft.

It's not good for the scene, of course no one will say otherwise, but at least in my eyes to say match fixing will kill starcraft - it's a grossly negative view.

Ex Zerg learning Terran. A bold move.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28536 Posts
April 23 2015 14:37 GMT
#535
On April 23 2015 22:58 fruity. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 22:51 Penev wrote:
Broodwar was also A LOT bigger than SC2. But I don't really get your original post tbh, unless you mean that KeSPA is the "implier". I think most people here want an investigation asap to PREVENT SC2 going down


My point is, that even if a thorough investigation was done (which for all we know could be happening, though I frankly doubt this) It's not going to kill Starcraft.

It's not good for the scene, of course no one will say otherwise, but at least in my eyes to say match fixing will kill starcraft - it's a grossly negative view.


But not many people are really saying that (besides maybe KeSPA one could speculate). The posts, at least on this page, are all saying "pls KeSPA, start the investigation asap, otherwise the possible damage done will only get bigger. You shouldn't underestimate this damage btw; BW shrunk significantly when the bomb hit.
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Garsecg
Profile Joined September 2014
United States129 Posts
April 23 2015 14:42 GMT
#536
On April 23 2015 22:58 fruity. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 22:51 Penev wrote:
Broodwar was also A LOT bigger than SC2. But I don't really get your original post tbh, unless you mean that KeSPA is the "implier". I think most people here want an investigation asap to PREVENT SC2 going down


My point is, that even if a thorough investigation was done (which for all we know could be happening, though I frankly doubt this) It's not going to kill Starcraft.

It's not good for the scene, of course no one will say otherwise, but at least in my eyes to say match fixing will kill starcraft - it's a grossly negative view.



It's a grossly puerile view to pretend that the death of starcraft 2 isn't a possibility.

It isn't assumed that Starcraft 2 will die from this matchfixing scandal, but it is assumed that match fixing will harm Starcraft 2. If you don't believe that last point, I would love to hear why.
fruity.
Profile Joined April 2012
England1711 Posts
April 23 2015 15:10 GMT
#537
On April 23 2015 23:42 Garsecg wrote:

It's a grossly puerile view to pretend that the death of starcraft 2 isn't a possibility.

It isn't assumed that Starcraft 2 will die from this matchfixing scandal, but it is assumed that match fixing will harm Starcraft 2. If you don't believe that last point, I would love to hear why.


Your first 2 sentences contradict themselves somewhat.

Also, I prefer to live in a world where the positive over the negative is prefered, each to their own.
Ex Zerg learning Terran. A bold move.
fruity.
Profile Joined April 2012
England1711 Posts
April 23 2015 15:23 GMT
#538
On April 23 2015 23:37 Penev wrote:
But not many people are really saying that (besides maybe KeSPA one could speculate). The posts, at least on this page, are all saying "pls KeSPA, start the investigation asap, otherwise the possible damage done will only get bigger. You shouldn't underestimate this damage btw; BW shrunk significantly when the bomb hit.


Fair points.

Does anyone here really believe that KESPA has not looked in to this? Of course they have. They might not of told us their thoughts.

Let's say for the sake of argument that KESPA have looked in to this. Now after their investigation they come to the conclusion that they don't have (enough) Proof. What are they to do?

Release a statement like MVPs where most of the community just call it a white wash? It's catch 22 for KESPA without definitive proof.

My personal opinion is that MK is more guilty than a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo. But that's just my opinion, and I'm not asking for his head on a pole, it's just my opinion.

I feel that any statement KESPA makes wont be well received by the community, if they couldn't find proof - any statement would just be dismissed, just like MVPs was.
Ex Zerg learning Terran. A bold move.
mikedebo
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada4341 Posts
April 23 2015 15:28 GMT
#539
The best thing about this thread is that I learned NaDa is streaming!!!!!!!!!!!
I NEED A PHOTOSYNTHESIS! ||| 'airtoss' is an anagram of 'artosis' ||| SANGHOOOOOO ||| "No Korea? No problem. I have internet." -- Stardust
boxerfred
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Germany8360 Posts
April 23 2015 15:41 GMT
#540
On April 23 2015 20:03 fruity. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 18:32 Hot_Ice wrote:
On April 21 2015 07:34 boxerfred wrote:
They should've released the replay.

This.


KESPA rules don't allow it. In the same way that Blizzard don't release WCS stuff until post season.

My thoughts on this, and the vod you can find here
[..]


KeSPA rules may not allow it but releasing that replay would have said more than a thousand words "look we're trying to be transparent"
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