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On April 23 2015 02:23 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 00:04 coverpunch wrote:On April 22 2015 23:25 Volband wrote:On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote:
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch? Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money. Do you often find insulting people with differing opinions and straw-manning them to be a good way of convincing them to see things your way? + Show Spoiler +If you want a short and blunt answer: yes, I do. If you want a longer answer: While I wouldn't call this thread and some of its' posters a prime example, it's still a very good one if you want to showcase how easy it is to manipulate arguments and force everything into a black and white scenario. Yeah, I've been calling out many people in this thread, you can even say I dropped some insulting remarks towards them, which is not nice, because we should love each other and makes this world a better place yada yada. A black mark for me from the ethics teacher, but let's look at the big picture, in which I hardly find myself the villain here, rather the one who couldn't be bothered to run the extra mile to sugarcoat my responses. If we want to see the big picture, first we have to boil down the whole thread. This thread, or rather, the discussion which takes place in it, is about whether MKP participated in matchfixing or not. Basically 98% of the responses are about this. Majority of the people believes he did so, and it is pointless to differentiate between those who think it's very obvious, or those who would really really like to believe it's not true, but in their heart they know it probably is. A yes is a yes. Now, there is a minority who believes MKP did not do it. In this minority, a few people don't want to argue it, they just don't think he would do such a thing, and there have been some vocal people from this group who are just as - or even more - confident in their opinion than some from the other side. So far so good, yeah? Seems like a usual debate, and someone mentioned 12 angry men, which is cool, we definitely need an opposing opinion, and even if it's just a minority, it can still be credible, and in the end, they can be right. Here comes the problem. We are through 24 pages and this minority did not come up with a single argument which would come close to any of the points the majority based their opinion on. And here comes the beautiful manipulating part (don't think it's intentional though), because even though their arguments are ridiculous, especially compared to some of the FACTS we brought up, they still achieve sympathy, which is enough to make people like you write a comment like the one I just quoted. This is how can you (=people who are reading this) can make the same shit, and derail any argument if someone doesn't recognize what you are trying to do: - If there are many points which one side uses to back up their opinion, pick the one you can make the best counter-argument against, and pretend the whole debate was about this one point, so if you make it weaker, you make the whole case weaker. Good example is the guy who stated in all of his response how someone cannon rushed without a forge. Now, no offense to this guy, later on we understood each other, and he made some good posts, but it is the easiest example. Now, on it's own, it's a great point, I mean if someone could make such a blunder, why do we expect MKP to be godlike and never bleed? The main problem with this, is that it ignores everything else. Circumstances matter, and this cannon rush example compared to MKP's continous mistakes is very much out of context. The other problem is, that knowing how it's such a weak argument*, you should absolutely not bash those who thinks MKP matchfixed based on this. Or to you use another word instead of bash: insult. Yes, implying that we are stupid if we still think he did that on purpose, just because someone somewhere made a big mistake as well is insulting, if you look a the big picture. *Once again, don't want to hurt that guy, that forge example is still one of the veeeeeeeeeeery few actual try to make a case for MKP being innocent. The others are pretty much just moral-warriors' weak attempts. - Talking about moral, the second way you can absolutely derail an argument, is going for the feels. A bunch of people talking about how they are disappointed in MKP? Better unleash the words "pitchfork"; "typical"; "disappointed"; etc. to try to make them look sheep. People who do (and did) this are not actually arguing, they barely if ever touch those points I was referring to previously, they straight out attack the people. It's pretty much flamebaiting, because you are insulted directly (you are labeled as mindless) and idnirectly (these people seemingly don't give a rat's ass about the previous pages and good arguments, they are just fighting this case for the sake of fighting it). After the Xth guy pops in here just to do this, you are pretty fucking tired of it. - Forcing to end the discussion. You know, the people who jump into the middle of this thread just to say "guys, MVP gave it's statement, let it go, it's over". It's not over, and why even bother telling people to stop discussing it? I for one am interested in why could he do it, how could teams/kespa/MKP handle it, what could this mean in the future of korean sc2, etc. Even if there was no matchfixing, it's still an interesting topic. Of course, you might seem like a jerk if you tell these people to go away, because oh, they just wanted this pointless fight to stop! Yeah, that's why some of them went as far as trying to force an end to the discussion, while implying that MKP is innocent for sure. - And finally, you just gotta love the "100% guys". They go to extreme lengths just to question every single word you make. It's very dumb, but these are the only people you technically can't win an argument against. Even if MKP announced he lost intentionally, these guys would just say "yeah, but what if kespa forced him to say this, so they can make a scapegoat out of him?". What do you even say to this? There is a possibility, sure. Maybe the people who thinks MKP lost intentionally are paid by the Russians. Can we prove we are not? Maybe MKP hired a guy who looks just like him, and the guy did not lose intentionally, he was just bad at Starcraft. Can I prove it was ot the case? Not without medical tests, no. The list could go on, and these guys are persistent, because they know if they add "but is it a 100% proof?" to whatever they say, they can just get away with it. It's very similiar to my previous point, their intention is the same: to force an end to the discussion. All of these could be summed up by one word: ignorance. Have you ever argued with ignorant people? Do you know much fun it is? If you don't, search for a pencil, put it down in front of you, and ask him what's 1+1. It will never say 2. Now, how long do you have the patience to repeatedly keep asking your pencil, while it just lies there with its' imaginary chin up in the air? Thought so. The question here is not as simple as 1+1, sure, but no one could make a single post which could be stickied somewhere, to showcase it for those who are interested in what the side who believes MKP is innocent have to offer. Nothing. We have countless posts which explains why it is very, very, very, very likely MKP participated in a matchfixing, they've been quoted for quite a lot, but the other side's so called arguments can be summed up by this: "99,9% is not 100%, MKP is innocent, if you think otherwise you are a sheep, bye." And you think I'm strawmanning? Really? Do you want me to quote some of these posts withot changing a single comma in them? I'm not making these up, people literally said these stupid things I just mentioned. Hell, the last guy I called out, marched in here, pretty much called us idiots, then admitted he actually had no idea what was going in, but ran away from here with his closing thoughts being (paraphrasing here): "I was ignorant, but you guys were mean, so I'm right. Don't respond to me, I'm not coming back, because I'm right." So much maturity! The funniest thing is that somehow we are presented to be MKP haters, who want him to go to jail or something, while in reality, the other side is the more radical one. But we all know that defending someone always looks better, than attacking him/her. On April 23 2015 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 23:25 Volband wrote:On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote:
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch? Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money. Do you not play the game, or do you play protoss at a really low level? It's a terrible decision whether a terran would assume a proxy hatch next to the terran's base or a hatch at another base location, the response would be the same; to make units. If the Terran would assume it was some bizarre mindgame where the Zerg proxy hatch to mine from a base normally, only to take your 3rd somewhere else, it makes no sense to not scout for the hatch and it's not actually possible to defend both your 2nd and 3rd to any normal Terran response and the Zerg player would lose automatically anyways. There's no reason to start a 3rd CC, just as there is no reason to not to bother to scout with the scouting scv or even to scout your own main. Was he microing units? No. Was he busy macroing? No, it's the first 5 mins of the game and he's a pro not a bronze player. He literally had a (real time) minute free to stare at his base and minimap and didn't notice the creep. Also, he totally saw it Here is the VOD Just watch it: No, I don't play SC. I was asking it, to be the devil's advocate, because the other camp is so damn lackluster, that I actually have to try to attack our own statements with - from a noobs perspective - reasonable questions. In a way, it wasn't a serious question, because I knew (many people have explained MKP's amateurish mistakes in this thread) it was most likely a ridiculous mistake, I was just curious if there was a purely theoretical answer, which could make this one particular mistake a little less terrible. On April 23 2015 00:38 SharkStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 23:25 Volband wrote:On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote:
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch? Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money. It was a terrible move because like i said, there had to be a hatch somewhere on the map. The only reason to proxy a hatchery to mine from it is to take the gold, since the additional income sometimes is worth the risk of having a base that's harder to defend. On a map like this, taking a base far away from your main will cost you the game in the midgame because the terran can just attack from two angles and you cant really defend both bases, at least far less comfortably than if you just had them together. Since he scouted the gold bases it had to be an offensively placed proxy hatch, since hatches to mine from don't benefit you if they're far away unless they are in fact gold bases. Therefore going 3rd CC into reactor was the most terrible thing he could have done since the hatch had to be placed offensively. Yeah, and meanwhile I realized that the main point in this is that he had to scout. I mean, let's say if the Z did not go for an offensive, but for a hidden expand hatchery, and if the T builds a 3rd CC he comes out ahead, there was still 0 reason why he shouldn't send at least one of his reaper to check his natural. 50/50 only makes sense in a scenario where you either lose big, if the other possibility is that you win big. I doubt the third CC would've been a guaranteed win for MKP if Byul only went for a hidden, non-golden base, but it was a guaranteed loss if it was where it was in the game.
The thing is noone hides hatches in the early game to mine from as zerg. unless it's a gold base. noone ever goes 'yep i'll place this hatch at the other side of the map, let's play a nice macro game'. You sometimes see that from protoss and even more rarely out of terran, but zergs have not done this in a million years unless i'm heavily mistaken, unless weird happenings in the game forced them to take such a risk.
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Another thing we should emphasize as evidence of the high probability that MKP matchfixed is the correlation of deliberately manipulated betting lines and an extremely suspicious game. Those two things occurred together. What are the odds?
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On April 23 2015 02:25 SharkStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 01:02 coverpunch wrote:On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I think everyone who claims mkp didn't throw on purpose is immensely delusional. I don't know if this has been done before but i am going to explain why this game is unbelievably obviously fixed to people who are not that familiar with (pro level) sc2.
First of all, we need to think logically. MKP is not stupid.
He saw a late gas and pool with no natural with his scouting SCV, thus he concluded that the hatchery must be somewhere else, which is why he checked the gold bases. He KNEW there was a hatchery somewhere on the map. Upon not finding anything at the gold bases he concluded (he had to, there were no other options) that the hatch must be somewhere proxied on the map.
What would anyone right in their mind do? Check their main first. He didn't . He opened reaper, so he could scout very easily and efficiently. I can understand some arguments for leaving the first one at home to defend, but as soon as the second reaper popped there was no reason for him to not look around for the hatch with at least one of them, since his main was completely walled in. Fact is, his reapers were sitting at home the entire time because he didn't want to find the hatch., since it is very simple to win the game once you scout something like this which he didn't want, obviously.
Sadly, for him, he scouted the proxy nonetheless, in form of a spine crawler at around 4:30 (video time). Let me get this straight. The spine was visible for over 1 minute and 20 seconds of real time. Pro players look at their minimap every two or three seconds. Marineking was on one base, he didn't even have any units out on the map, so it's impossible that he was too busy to see it. He definitely saw it, maybe not immediately, but no player above gold league doesn't notice something like this in one and a half minutes. Marineking played this game for over five years, i don't have to explain that he saw it by now.
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
To top that off, at around 5:30 (video time) there is creep visible inside his main base right besides the Command Center. It's just there, on his main screen, not to mention there is a huge purple blurp on the minimap. So even IF we pretend, again, he DIDN'T look the the minimap for more than 2 minutes, he definitely saw the creep there. He did not respond whatsoever.
After ByuL breaks down the rocks the game is over, MKP 'tries' to defend with good micro but at that point the game was 100% over so he could finally drop his act and start playing.
So if you say 'maybe he had a bad day', please can you explain all these points i mentioned above then? That's like you saying a computer expert didn't find the button to turn his PC on because he had a bad day. No matter how bad of a day he had, the things that happened were unexplicable.
Sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if this has been explained in great detail already, but maybe i could provide some insight to those of you who didn't really get why people found this game so absurdly strange.
I'll make a couple points here: -The scouting is definitely suspicious. The SCV scouts no natural, scouts the late pool (with gas first), scouts the gold bases, then goes back home to mine. I guess MK would argue he thought it was a speedling and/or baneling bust incoming, but it doesn't really explain why he wouldn't keep something outside the base to keep scouting or if he knew it was a proxy hatch, why he wouldn't keep trying to find it with his scouting SCV. -Keeping reapers at home is also strange. Again, maybe he would say he was expecting a big attack, but he builds no bunkers or extra production buildings, simply teching to reactor hellions. Can he really expect to hold a speedling all-in or baneling bust (from a proxy hatch, no less) with two reapers and maybe two late hellions? -I could buy MK saying he assumed the spine crawler on the minimap was an overlord. He had an SCV building a CC, which stayed in the lower left closest to the rocks for a long time and it's pretty close in vision. Later on, Byul does actually keep an overlord on that spot. It would be peculiar that it's winking at him the whole time since overlords aren't supposed to be visible in fog of war. -He starts his third CC just as the creep is coming in. I think it's pretty ambiguous if he could have thought he missed something and there's no attack coming without seeing the creep until it was too late. You'd need the replay of his player cam to see it. The SPL observer shows his camera where you can see some creep, but he had already started his third CC. Still, he reacts VERY slowly to it. So I think the circumstances are very strange. Even still, I would point out that MVP watched the replay with MK and they still believe him, so it maybe isn't THAT obvious from his player cam what he did or did not see. As with the quote of CJ's coach believing Savior, I would point out that the team is now putting its trust in MK. If it turns out he lied to them and let them put themselves out here like this, then they're a victim too. To call this putting their head in the sand like an ostrich is really being way too bitter and harsh, especially for a young guy. I'd be more charitable and say they're giving him every chance to come clean. If he's been spitting on those chances, then he deserves the consequences. But this is all part of the due process and I think far more preferable to the public humiliation, torture, and summary execution that lots of people here seem to want to see instead. MVP guards MK, they have to know he matchfixed but they just don't make it public. Or they're extremely stupid. Or they don't want to know. You see, they ask him 'well dude did you matchfix?' -'nah i didn't' -'really? ' -'no' MK INNOCENT THANKS CASE CLOSED there are ways of finding out if he fixed if they wanted to. they could check his skype/fb messages, check his bank account for suspicious amounts of money coming out of nowhere etc. The fact is that they don't, which implies one of the options i mentioned above. Oh and he didn't have permanent vision of the spine, which as you said 'could have been an overlord', thus the yellow dot would disappear, since you can't permanently see overlords on the map without vision, while the dot from the spine would still be there even if he lost vision, since it's a building. So even that theory doesn't work.
Nah, this is what I mean by torturing him. They can't do those things. Going through his personal communications or his bank accounts is a tremendous violation of his constitutionally protected rights against searches without cause, not to mention the ugly personal signals it sends to the captain of their own team. I'm pretty alarmed at how casual and easy you think it is to ask someone for records of their private conversations and financial records or worse, to obtain it without their consent.
Put it this way: you could also figure this out pretty quickly if you tied him down to a board with a towel over his face and poured water on it to induce sensations of drowning until he just admitted it. Want the team to do that?
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The problem with the statement is that they don't give much info about why they are so sure he didn't do it. If they had said 'we watched the replay and at no point could mkp see the spine/creep on his vision and he walked us through his thought process', or given any specifics at all really it would have been more convincing.
Also if i were looking to fix a match, mkp would be a good person to have do it. I mean he does seem like an unlikely person to fix, and he's already been losing quite a lot. If that's the case than maybe they hoped they could get away with a more skewed betting line. The casters themselves at the beginning of the game said no one expected mkp to win.
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On April 22 2015 12:04 Cascade wrote:Yeah, it's probably about time to put all the evidence together, including proper sources for everything, and put it in the OP or something. Or at least to have ready for number 6... Just so that it'll be easier for people to get an overview and form their own opinion without being flamed for failing to dig up the information. Many are talking about how "awareness" of this is important: well then the thing you can do is make the information easily available in a readable format, right? I'll make a first draft based on other peoples efforts in this thread, but maybe others can track down the missing sources and format it in a more readable way. I'll just dump it here and see if someone wants to pick it up. + Show Spoiler [Ingvars summary.] +On April 21 2015 17:03 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote:
Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it.
2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it.
3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute.
4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally.
5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter. Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on. ^^ all of these needs sources, not least the line movements and pinnacle closing the lines. + Show Spoiler [solar is approached by fixers] +On April 22 2015 07:36 Wuster wrote:I don't have a link for MMA's statement because I've never seen it, but here's Solar's statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/450607-solar-received-an-offer-to-fix-a-gameWhat's interesting is that KeSPA actually also gave a statement confirming that this is happening to a lot of players/teams and that the appropriate authorities were notified (presumably the police). The implication being that an investigation would be started, but of course this was a long time ago.  ] +On April 21 2015 23:59 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 23:53 LA_Morello wrote:
Guys, is there a link to the match or something?
I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start? Search "pinnacle" you will find all the matches. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?&q=pinnacle On April 21 2015 16:51 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 16:37 Disarmed wrote:
I didn't follow BW really.
To what extent was the community involved in unraveling the Savior-Scandal? How did it start? I cannot find the exact threads I was looking for as there were so many on it. This might suffice: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/119403-korea-swept-in-illegal-starcraft-league-gamblingwell shit a lot of the links in it are dead and would be in Korean. I know TL had extensive coverage of the proceedings and how everything went down including how the manager first found out about it in the practice room and how SaviOr lied directly to his face (ofc he didn't want it to be revealed). It wasn't going to change anything considering how many people were involved or knew of it happening. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/125601-match-fixing-scandal-conclusionThat is one of the wrap up posts with the players who got caught. Perhaps someone else's search engine skills is better than mine. Also, did someone say that Snute said that MKPs game can't realistically be just playing bad? A link to that would be worthwile I think. and ofc MVPs statement from this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/483522-mvps-statement-on-marineking
A new thread summarizing things would be very handy actually.
I didn't see a post by Snute, but almost immediately there was a post by Welmu calling MKP out:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/481281-pinnacle-voids-byul-vs-marineking-match?page=8#141
There are vods of Huk / Kane / Desrow / Destiny going over the game in question on Remax and Lycanthrope or something. Unfortunately, I can't find the vods right now, but at least here's Huk talking about how crappy things are in Korea to allow this to keep going on:
http://www.twitch.tv/desrowfighting/v/4031346?t=2h36m49s
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On April 23 2015 02:23 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On April 22 2015 23:25 Volband wrote:On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote:
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch? Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money. Do you not play the game, or do you play protoss at a really low level? It's a terrible decision whether a terran would assume a proxy hatch next to the terran's base or a hatch at another base location, the response would be the same; to make units. If the Terran would assume it was some bizarre mindgame where the Zerg proxy hatch to mine from a base normally, only to take your 3rd somewhere else, it makes no sense to not scout for the hatch and it's not actually possible to defend both your 2nd and 3rd to any normal Terran response and the Zerg player would lose automatically anyways. There's no reason to start a 3rd CC, just as there is no reason to not to bother to scout with the scouting scv or even to scout your own main. Was he microing units? No. Was he busy macroing? No, it's the first 5 mins of the game and he's a pro not a bronze player. He literally had a (real time) minute free to stare at his base and minimap and didn't notice the creep. Also, he totally saw it Here is the VOD Just watch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-XbHBQAco8&feature=youtu.be&t=1m28s No, I don't play SC. I was asking it, to be the devil's advocate, because the other camp is so damn lackluster, that I actually have to try to attack our own statements with - from a noobs perspective - reasonable questions. In a way, it wasn't a serious question, because I knew (many people have explained MKP's amateurish mistakes in this thread) it was most likely a ridiculous mistake, I was just curious if there was a purely theoretical answer, which could make this one particular mistake a little less terrible. Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 00:38 SharkStarcraft wrote:On April 22 2015 23:25 Volband wrote:On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote:
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
Can you explain why was this a terrible move? What if the Zerg put a hatch at another base to be greedy himself? Or is this map too small to risk to try to hide such a greedy hatch? Anyway, a nice write up once again, but behold the people who don't read anything here (or anything they don't like to hear), or will try to explain you that you are a bad guy for pointing out how blatantly obvious it was, or just some random, empty moral talk in general, because those MKP posters on their wall costed money. It was a terrible move because like i said, there had to be a hatch somewhere on the map. The only reason to proxy a hatchery to mine from it is to take the gold, since the additional income sometimes is worth the risk of having a base that's harder to defend. On a map like this, taking a base far away from your main will cost you the game in the midgame because the terran can just attack from two angles and you cant really defend both bases, at least far less comfortably than if you just had them together. Since he scouted the gold bases it had to be an offensively placed proxy hatch, since hatches to mine from don't benefit you if they're far away unless they are in fact gold bases. Therefore going 3rd CC into reactor was the most terrible thing he could have done since the hatch had to be placed offensively. Yeah, and meanwhile I realized that the main point in this is that he had to scout. I mean, let's say if the Z did not go for an offensive, but for a hidden expand hatchery, and if the T builds a 3rd CC he comes out ahead, there was still 0 reason why he shouldn't send at least one of his reaper to check his natural.50/50 only makes sense in a scenario where you either lose big, if the other possibility is that you win big. I doubt the third CC would've been a guaranteed win for MKP if Byul only went for a hidden, non-golden base, but it was a guaranteed loss if it was where it was in the game. Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 01:02 coverpunch wrote:On April 22 2015 22:45 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I think everyone who claims mkp didn't throw on purpose is immensely delusional. I don't know if this has been done before but i am going to explain why this game is unbelievably obviously fixed to people who are not that familiar with (pro level) sc2.
First of all, we need to think logically. MKP is not stupid.
He saw a late gas and pool with no natural with his scouting SCV, thus he concluded that the hatchery must be somewhere else, which is why he checked the gold bases. He KNEW there was a hatchery somewhere on the map. Upon not finding anything at the gold bases he concluded (he had to, there were no other options) that the hatch must be somewhere proxied on the map.
What would anyone right in their mind do? Check their main first. He didn't . He opened reaper, so he could scout very easily and efficiently. I can understand some arguments for leaving the first one at home to defend, but as soon as the second reaper popped there was no reason for him to not look around for the hatch with at least one of them, since his main was completely walled in. Fact is, his reapers were sitting at home the entire time because he didn't want to find the hatch., since it is very simple to win the game once you scout something like this which he didn't want, obviously.
Sadly, for him, he scouted the proxy nonetheless, in form of a spine crawler at around 4:30 (video time). Let me get this straight. The spine was visible for over 1 minute and 20 seconds of real time. Pro players look at their minimap every two or three seconds. Marineking was on one base, he didn't even have any units out on the map, so it's impossible that he was too busy to see it. He definitely saw it, maybe not immediately, but no player above gold league doesn't notice something like this in one and a half minutes. Marineking played this game for over five years, i don't have to explain that he saw it by now.
So what does he do? He starts a 3rd CC and a reactor. That is the worst response imaginable against what he SAW. He needed units, bunkers. Instead he went for the most greedy thing there was to do. Even IF we pretend he DIDN'T see the proxy hatch, he knew it was somewhere on the map due to his scouting earlier. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to go for this build.
To top that off, at around 5:30 (video time) there is creep visible inside his main base right besides the Command Center. It's just there, on his main screen, not to mention there is a huge purple blurp on the minimap. So even IF we pretend, again, he DIDN'T look the the minimap for more than 2 minutes, he definitely saw the creep there. He did not respond whatsoever.
After ByuL breaks down the rocks the game is over, MKP 'tries' to defend with good micro but at that point the game was 100% over so he could finally drop his act and start playing.
So if you say 'maybe he had a bad day', please can you explain all these points i mentioned above then? That's like you saying a computer expert didn't find the button to turn his PC on because he had a bad day. No matter how bad of a day he had, the things that happened were unexplicable.
Sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if this has been explained in great detail already, but maybe i could provide some insight to those of you who didn't really get why people found this game so absurdly strange.
I'll make a couple points here: -The scouting is definitely suspicious. The SCV scouts no natural, scouts the late pool (with gas first), scouts the gold bases, then goes back home to mine. I guess MK would argue he thought it was a speedling and/or baneling bust incoming, but it doesn't really explain why he wouldn't keep something outside the base to keep scouting or if he knew it was a proxy hatch, why he wouldn't keep trying to find it with his scouting SCV. -Keeping reapers at home is also strange. Again, maybe he would say he was expecting a big attack, but he builds no bunkers or extra production buildings, simply teching to reactor hellions. Can he really expect to hold a speedling all-in or baneling bust (from a proxy hatch, no less) with two reapers and maybe two late hellions? -I could buy MK saying he assumed the spine crawler on the minimap was an overlord. He had an SCV building a CC, which stayed in the lower left closest to the rocks for a long time and it's pretty close in vision. Later on, Byul does actually keep an overlord on that spot. It would be peculiar that it's winking at him the whole time since overlords aren't supposed to be visible in fog of war. -He starts his third CC just as the creep is coming in. I think it's pretty ambiguous if he could have thought he missed something and there's no attack coming without seeing the creep until it was too late. You'd need the replay of his player cam to see it. The SPL observer shows his camera where you can see some creep, but he had already started his third CC. Still, he reacts VERY slowly to it. So I think the circumstances are very strange. Even still, I would point out that MVP watched the replay with MK and they still believe him, so it maybe isn't THAT obvious from his player cam what he did or did not see. As with the quote of CJ's coach believing Savior, I would point out that the team is now putting its trust in MK. If it turns out he lied to them and let them put themselves out here like this, then they're a victim too. To call this putting their head in the sand like an ostrich is really being way too bitter and harsh, especially for a young guy. I'd be more charitable and say they're giving him every chance to come clean. If he's been spitting on those chances, then he deserves the consequences. But this is all part of the due process and I think far more preferable to the public humiliation, torture, and summary execution that lots of people here seem to want to see instead. See, this is a good post, which differs to my opinion, but I have absolutely no urge to call this guy out, because he obviously read other's posts here, he is not being ignorant, and he stays on topic, not trying to make childish arguments, or making it into some emotional war. Now, compare his post to the people's I have called out so far. You know, like the guys who barfs in one sentence which screams from "I don't even care what you guys wrote so far, imma just butt in here for the lulz".
If you look at 3:45 into the game he sends the 1st reaper down his ramp briefly to check for a hatch at his nat and then brings it back up.
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MVP is just defending a teammate. Protecting your own, especially when matchfixing is already rampant in the game.
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This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first?
This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
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On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote:
This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first?
This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me.
Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
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On April 23 2015 06:12 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote:
This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first?
This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me. Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Which still doesn't explain why he didn't send anything over there to deny a scout of his base
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On April 23 2015 06:12 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote:
This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first?
This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me. Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Why do people keep saying this? It sounds so inane and ignores everything else that went on in the game.
Such as the fact that MKP literally moved the unit that scouted the red dot away once it showed up on his mini-map.
He didn't even scout the spine intentionally, his building CC pushed a reaper into vision range. A reaper he immediately moved away.
But even the in-game issues could be glossed over (even if multiple pros have gone on record saying it's just not a mistake that can happen) if not for the fact that this is the 5th voided bet.
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On April 23 2015 06:12 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote:
This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first?
This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me. Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Plus MarineKing didn't play with allied colors, ByuL is I believe whitish or something, and on the minimap dots show up like some doodad in the map or some mineral patch (especially near expands). It's actually easy to miss.
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Here I'll try to come up with a scenario where MKP is not guilty. Perhaps it would be interesting to try to come up with the most likely scenario and compare those to facts, to see if anything fits as closely as the fixing.
You might be able to speculate that he was frustrated and maybe focusing too hard on his apm/thinking about his gameplan that it caused him to not note the timing of the pool, and assume that it was going to be a baneling bust. Then he puts his third down thinking that he could hold the bust with the extra base and doesn't care about it getting scouted so he doesn't check what he mistakes to be an overlord and has his camera mainly over his ramp anticipating the bust so he doesn't see the creep.
Then for the betting line...I don't know exactly how it works, but if a lot of people thought mkp was going to lose it could tilt the odds fairly far. Then people trying to ride matchixing waves might see that and jump in thinking the match was fixed. But I can't think of a reason why people would keep betting on byul once the payout got down to around 1:1.09.
That's the best I can do trying to stay somewhere in the realm of being realistic.
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On April 23 2015 06:39 SharkStarcraft wrote:
Haha, I didn't see what you wrote before you edited but I suspect you exploded after reading the post above xD
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On April 23 2015 06:38 Bannt wrote:
Here I'll try to come up with a scenario where MKP is not guilty. Perhaps it would be interesting to try to come up with the most likely scenario and compare those to facts, to see if anything fits as closely as the fixing.
You might be able to speculate that he was frustrated and maybe focusing too hard on his apm/thinking about his gameplan that it caused him to not note the timing of the pool, and assume that it was going to be a baneling bust. Then he puts his third down thinking that he could hold the bust with the extra base and doesn't care about it getting scouted so he doesn't check what he mistakes to be an overlord and has his camera mainly over his ramp anticipating the bust so he doesn't see the creep.
Then for the betting line...I don't know exactly how it works, but if a lot of people thought mkp was going to lose it could tilt the odds fairly far. Then people trying to ride matchixing waves might see that and jump in thinking the match was fixed. But I can't think of a reason why people would keep betting on byul once the payout got down to around 1:1.09.
That's the best I can do trying to stay somewhere in the realm of being realistic.
No queen, next to no gas mined, I can buy him missing the pool timing but not all three. Plus you see him react to the pool timing when his reaper passes it, he shifts forward in a clear "WTF?" move. I understand the want for him to be innocent and the idea is sound but he can't possibly be that much of an idiot.
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On April 23 2015 06:12 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote:
This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first?
This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me. Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it.
Is it possible that he had the same team colors on as the observer? I made a crude paintjob of the moment just before MK's gasp that's pretty telling:
+ Show Spoiler +
Yellow might be missable compared to that if his 132apm was solely focused on worker pairing. I'm not buying it either way. 
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On April 23 2015 07:00 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 06:12 CakeSauc3 wrote:On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote:
This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first?
This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me. Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it. Is it possible that he had the same team colors on as the observer? I made a crude paintjob of the moment just before MK's gasp that's pretty telling: + Show Spoiler +Yellow might be missable compared to that if his 132apm was solely focused on worker pairing. I'm not buying it either way.
Pretty sure they said he had red/green on.
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On April 23 2015 07:02 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 07:00 rotta wrote:On April 23 2015 06:12 CakeSauc3 wrote:On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote:
This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first?
This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me. Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it. Is it possible that he had the same team colors on as the observer? I made a crude paintjob of the moment just before MK's gasp that's pretty telling: + Show Spoiler +Yellow might be missable compared to that if his 132apm was solely focused on worker pairing. I'm not buying it either way. Pretty sure they said he had red/green on.
How would they know without seeing his screen for themselves?
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On April 23 2015 07:05 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 07:02 showstealer1829 wrote:On April 23 2015 07:00 rotta wrote:On April 23 2015 06:12 CakeSauc3 wrote:On April 23 2015 06:06 HooHooH wrote:
This is the bulliest of bullshit. Any pro gamer or even several leagues below that WILL ALWAYS notice a red dot on their map, regardless of the situation. I dont even get why this is up for discussion. Like.. come on?? Is this not the same player who held a 6-pool with a CC first?
This super late "confession" just doesn't cut it for me. Red dot could have been an overlord. That mistake would have been an easy one to make. It's in the fog of war, sure, but it's on the very edge and could be mistaken without paying direct attention to it. Is it possible that he had the same team colors on as the observer? I made a crude paintjob of the moment just before MK's gasp that's pretty telling: + Show Spoiler +Yellow might be missable compared to that if his 132apm was solely focused on worker pairing. I'm not buying it either way. Pretty sure they said he had red/green on. How would they know without seeing his screen for themselves?
There's a picture of his screen right above. He had red/green on.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5uuGlgZ.jpg)
