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On April 22 2015 05:44 GoShox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 05:42 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:38 Dodgin wrote:On April 22 2015 05:37 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:36 Doodsmack wrote:On April 22 2015 05:18 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:10 Doodsmack wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. Reading effort fail. On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion. On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details. No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep". The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is! You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times. edit: On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass. How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem? You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status. What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument This is a good summary On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote:
Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it.
2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it.
3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute.
4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally.
5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter. Thank you as well. Just a shame you're in the minority of sensible in this thread. I realize I should probably have made a more thought out first post, but honestly I didn't have it in me after reading the past two pages. There is a lot of sense in this post The point is, no one wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. If you had read this post, like you should have since you claimed you've read the entire thread, then you would know what has caused all the suspicions. Instead, you simply posted "oh MKP played bad and now you guys all think he's match fixing with any other proof?!". When all of the relevant details have been laid out already as to what can cause suspicion that he might have thrown the match on purpose, then it makes you look like a lazy poster/reader. That's why people get annoyed.
I knew what caused all the suspicion. I never said I read the entire thread, but I did read the first few pages and the last few. You think I just came in here and said something random without having read a single line, yet after arguing with me for the last page, all I have done is elaborate just how exactly correct my first post is: People are trying to pitchfork him (Even if some are trying to be sensible about it, the majority here does not), for not sufficient proof. Lines like "It wouldn't hold up in court but I know he did it!" proves this.
But I'll let you get back to it. I've had enough. I got exactly 3 sensible answers between 10 ad hominem. I realize when a cause is lost.
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On April 22 2015 05:48 meatpop_13 wrote:
The betting was so skewed (by people betting large amounts of money against MKP) that, near game time:
a $100 bet on Byul to win could win you $9 profit.
a $100 bet on MKP to win could win you $709 in profit.
People were SO confident that MKP was going to lose, they continued to poor tons and tons of money into bets for Byul for peanuts in return. THAT is how skewed the betting was. You could probably find a betting line that skewed if Apollo decided to step into a boxing ring with Floyd Mayweather Jr. Maybe.
Don't be ridiculous. Apollo would knock Mayweather out in under 30 seconds and we all know it 
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On April 22 2015 05:37 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 05:36 Doodsmack wrote:On April 22 2015 05:18 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:10 Doodsmack wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. Reading effort fail. On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion. On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details. No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep". The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is! You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times. edit: On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass. How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem? You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status. What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument
You didn't spell it out in this post but I assume your paraphrase of our argument is still "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed". If you had read our arguments in this thread, you would know our argument is not "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed". So long as you are responding to the straw man "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", your reading effort is still "fail" status.
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Seriously Excludos, the criticisms you got were well deserved.
I did read the first few pages and the last few
That's just not how it works, pls educate yourself before you Leroy Jenkins yourself in to a thread. If you would've done that you would've noticed that a lot of the posts are reasonable enough. You should also know that this is not exactly the first thread concerning this topic so a lot of people are getting tired of constantly repeating everything again and again.
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Canada8550 Posts
You can't prove a negative arbitrarily for the masses, it's just a case where for a significant amount of people the existing evidence that they have access to has already been enough proof "beyond reasonable doubt". If Marineking is innocent he's just so freakishly unlucky that these events lined up that I think a hypothetical jury of his peers might end up convicting him any ways.
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Russian Federation421 Posts
On April 22 2015 05:50 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 05:44 GoShox wrote:On April 22 2015 05:42 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:38 Dodgin wrote:On April 22 2015 05:37 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:36 Doodsmack wrote:On April 22 2015 05:18 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:10 Doodsmack wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. Reading effort fail. On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion. On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details. No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep". The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is! You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times. edit: On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass. How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem? You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status. What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument This is a good summary On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote:
Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it.
2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it.
3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute.
4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally.
5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter. Thank you as well. Just a shame you're in the minority of sensible in this thread. I realize I should probably have made a more thought out first post, but honestly I didn't have it in me after reading the past two pages. There is a lot of sense in this post The point is, no one wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. If you had read this post, like you should have since you claimed you've read the entire thread, then you would know what has caused all the suspicions. Instead, you simply posted "oh MKP played bad and now you guys all think he's match fixing with any other proof?!". When all of the relevant details have been laid out already as to what can cause suspicion that he might have thrown the match on purpose, then it makes you look like a lazy poster/reader. That's why people get annoyed. I knew what caused all the suspicion. I never said I read the entire thread, but I did read the first few pages and the last few. You think I just came in here and said something random without having read a single line, yet after arguing with me for the last page, all I have done is elaborate just how exactly correct my first post is: People are trying to pitchfork him (Even if some are trying to be sensible about it, the majority here does not), for not sufficient proof. Lines like "It wouldn't hold up in court but I know he did it!" proves this. But I'll let you get back to it. I've had enough. I got exactly 3 sensible answers between 10 ad hominem. I realize when a cause is lost.
Just in case Excludos would answer unlike other people believing in MKP's innocence.
First of all, you should forgive people bashing you for your lack of knowledge on the matter. While for you it is strange that so many people believe that MKP threw the match, for them you are yet another person who came to say "that's not enough evidence" and never ever bothered to respond or understand why they believe in that. Stating your opinion and leaving is not a meaningful contribution to the discussion and dealing with people who do that becomes frustrating after a while.
Next, if you want to defend MKP, could you please give another explanation to recent turn other events other than matchfixing. My summary on the matter was quoted up there.
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Russian Federation421 Posts
On April 21 2015 17:03 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote:
Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it.
2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it.
3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute.
4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally.
5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter. Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on.
I didn't include it because I missed all the sources on it. Would anyone kindly provide the links?
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On April 22 2015 07:26 Ingvar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 17:03 DJHelium wrote:On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote:
Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it.
2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it.
3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute.
4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally.
5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter. Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on. I didn't include it because I missed all the sources on it. Would anyone kindly provide the links?
I don't have a link for MMA's statement because I've never seen it, but here's Solar's statement:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/450607-solar-received-an-offer-to-fix-a-game
What's interesting is that KeSPA actually also gave a statement confirming that this is happening to a lot of players/teams and that the appropriate authorities were notified (presumably the police). The implication being that an investigation would be started, but of course this was a long time ago.
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On April 22 2015 05:50 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 05:44 GoShox wrote:On April 22 2015 05:42 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:38 Dodgin wrote:On April 22 2015 05:37 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:36 Doodsmack wrote:On April 22 2015 05:18 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:10 Doodsmack wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. Reading effort fail. On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion. On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details. No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep". The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is! You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times. edit: On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass. How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem? You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status. What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument This is a good summary On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote:
Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it.
2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it.
3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute.
4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally.
5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter. Thank you as well. Just a shame you're in the minority of sensible in this thread. I realize I should probably have made a more thought out first post, but honestly I didn't have it in me after reading the past two pages. There is a lot of sense in this post The point is, no one wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. If you had read this post, like you should have since you claimed you've read the entire thread, then you would know what has caused all the suspicions. Instead, you simply posted "oh MKP played bad and now you guys all think he's match fixing with any other proof?!". When all of the relevant details have been laid out already as to what can cause suspicion that he might have thrown the match on purpose, then it makes you look like a lazy poster/reader. That's why people get annoyed. But I'll let you get back to it. I've had enough. I got exactly 3 sensible answers between 10 ad hominem. I realize when a cause is lost.
You were far from from being the first guy, who butts in the discussion with a seemingly random one-liner to bash the side which believes MKP has matchfixed, without providing any opinion on the strong arguments which back up that theory, and has been discussed for long pages now. It's pretty tiring, and after a point, straight out annoying that every 2,5 pages or so someone like you appears in the midst of the discussion just to say some one sentence long, arrogant bashing, while seemingly being unaware of what the hell has been discussed. Then this guy has to be shown the same arguments no one could legitimately come close to shake so far in this thread, and then the guy either disappears, makes an even bigger ass out of himself, or goes "aaahhh, yeah, I see now".
I don't even care now, just please, don't try to save face with enlightening us how many ad hominem answers you got, because these personal responses are the result of your ignorant entrance and not vice versa. Just lose the high horse, and I doubt your replies will be as provoking as they were.
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On April 22 2015 05:48 meatpop_13 wrote:
The betting was so skewed (by people betting large amounts of money against MKP) that, near game time:
a $100 bet on Byul to win could win you $9 profit.
a $100 bet on MKP to win could win you $709 in profit.
People were SO confident that MKP was going to lose, they continued to pour tons and tons of money into bets for Byul for peanuts in return. THAT is how skewed the betting was. You could probably find a betting line that skewed if Apollo decided to step into a boxing ring with Floyd Mayweather Jr. Maybe.
I'm curious how often the odds change and how much money it would take to do it. Would it be possible for some baller to just dump a ton of money when the odds are 4:1 and the odds got skewed because of that? I'm also curious who the dumbass fixer is that let all of his 1,000 friends know that MKP was gonna lose.
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On April 22 2015 08:13 North2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 05:48 meatpop_13 wrote:
The betting was so skewed (by people betting large amounts of money against MKP) that, near game time:
a $100 bet on Byul to win could win you $9 profit.
a $100 bet on MKP to win could win you $709 in profit.
People were SO confident that MKP was going to lose, they continued to pour tons and tons of money into bets for Byul for peanuts in return. THAT is how skewed the betting was. You could probably find a betting line that skewed if Apollo decided to step into a boxing ring with Floyd Mayweather Jr. Maybe.
I'm curious how often the odds change and how much money it would take to do it. Would it be possible for some baller to just dump a ton of money when the odds are 4:1 and the odds got skewed because of that? I'm also curious who the dumbass fixer is that let all of his 1,000 friends know that MKP was gonna lose.
First of all, 4:1 is extremely rare in a bo1. There's lots of discussion about this on other threads. Educated guess (impossible for us to give exact answers with current knowledge) is around tens of thousands of dollars.
About your second point. Information has a habit of spreading. It is not necessarily the fixer that lets his friends know. All it takes is one person to know and the information can spread. If you want a real-life example of this, 2(?) days before Russia occupied Crimea, Russian oligarchs started pulling their assests from west. Did Putin tell all of his friends he is going to do it? I kinda doubt it, but information obviously had spread about the upcoming annexation.
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The math behind moving the line has been explained elsewhere and I'm not an expert so I pass.
But the second part has a lot of possibilities. Originally, I assumed match fixers were first starting to show up on Pinnacle looking for bigger pools to rob and either didn't know the limits of Pinnacle's detection or just plain got greedy.
However, Swoopae reported an offer for getting 4 match results a year for $2k, furthermore Lichter speculated that Pinnacle betters are not the match fixers themselves but people who keep their ear to the ground on the illegal Korean gambling sites who then head to Pinnacle to make some money. Both possibilities would mean there's a lot of uncoordinated people involved which would make it more likely they would accidentally trip the fraud detection.
Heck, if I were selling match results, I don't even care if Pinnacle voids the bets, I've already made my money and the people I sold it to get confirmation that my info is good (yes I know how short-sighted this thinking is).
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On April 22 2015 08:26 Wuster wrote:
The math behind moving the line has been explained elsewhere and I'm not an expert so I pass.
But the second part has a lot of possibilities. Originally, I assumed match fixers were first starting to show up on Pinnacle looking for bigger pools to rob and either didn't know the limits of Pinnacle's detection or just plain got greedy.
However, Swoopae reported an offer for getting 4 match results a year for $2k, furthermore Lichter speculated that Pinnacle betters are not the match fixers themselves but people who keep their ear to the ground on the illegal Korean gambling sites who then head to Pinnacle to make some money. Both possibilities would mean there's a lot of uncoordinated people involved which would make it more likely they would accidentally trip the fraud detection.
Heck, if I were selling match results, I don't even care if Pinnacle voids the bets, I've already made my money and the people I sold it to get confirmation that my info is good (yes I know how short-sighted this thinking is).
I think this probably is the case though. The people paying the players probably got their money already by selling the information.
I am genuinely curious though about your first line. Seeing how the math has been explained elsewhere, could you please give me the direction in which i must go to learn more about it? I can't ask to provide a specific link, but could you provide me a direction?
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Ive made several posts explaining dynamic betting lines im on my phone can someone find it and quote it plz its posted in both the mkp byul and sk creator threads and possibly this one
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On April 22 2015 05:50 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 05:44 GoShox wrote:On April 22 2015 05:42 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:38 Dodgin wrote:On April 22 2015 05:37 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:36 Doodsmack wrote:On April 22 2015 05:18 Excludos wrote:On April 22 2015 05:10 Doodsmack wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. Reading effort fail. On April 22 2015 05:05 maGicc wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. And I've missed the clueless sheeps who dont bother reading anything before posting foolish and uneducated opinion. On April 22 2015 04:40 Wuster wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. That's the short of it anyways, but I get the feeling you don't really care about all the details. No, you're right. Neither does anyone else in this thread. It's pointless when these are the kind of people one is trying to deal with. I could delve deeper into the subject and come up with smart counterarguments and try to hold a proper discussion, but why bother when the only answer one is going to get is "Fail @ reading" and "such sheep". The truth is, you don't have sufficient proof, and you're trying, very hard I might argue, to ruin a man's career over said not sufficient proof. And the worst part is you don't even understand yourself how fucking despicable this is! You can have all the suspicion you want, and by all means let it fuel you into further investigation, which is how this should work. But that is not at all what's going on in this thread. There's a reason the analogy of "witch burning" has been repeated so many times. edit: On April 22 2015 05:16 GoShox wrote:On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd. Might wanna read the topic before looking like a jackass. How can you even expect to think you're on the right side when all the arguments you can come up with is ad hominem? You still haven't come up with a smart counterargument, because your paraphrase of our position is "MKP played poorly therefore he matchfixed", which is incorrect. Your reading effort is still "fail" status. What am I suppose to counter? You still haven't proved an argument for me to counter. "Fail at reading jackass" is not an argument This is a good summary On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote:
Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it.
2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it.
3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute.
4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally.
5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter. Thank you as well. Just a shame you're in the minority of sensible in this thread. I realize I should probably have made a more thought out first post, but honestly I didn't have it in me after reading the past two pages. There is a lot of sense in this post The point is, no one wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. If you had read this post, like you should have since you claimed you've read the entire thread, then you would know what has caused all the suspicions. Instead, you simply posted "oh MKP played bad and now you guys all think he's match fixing with any other proof?!". When all of the relevant details have been laid out already as to what can cause suspicion that he might have thrown the match on purpose, then it makes you look like a lazy poster/reader. That's why people get annoyed. I knew what caused all the suspicion. I never said I read the entire thread, but I did read the first few pages and the last few. You think I just came in here and said something random without having read a single line, yet after arguing with me for the last page, all I have done is elaborate just how exactly correct my first post is: People are trying to pitchfork him (Even if some are trying to be sensible about it, the majority here does not), for not sufficient proof. Lines like "It wouldn't hold up in court but I know he did it!" proves this. But I'll let you get back to it. I've had enough. I got exactly 3 sensible answers between 10 ad hominem. I realize when a cause is lost.
Your first post this thread:
On April 22 2015 04:38 Excludos wrote:
I'm a bit late to the party here..but basically: MVP played poorly and now everyone thinks he's matchfixing without any sufficient proof? Oh how I've missed you pitchfork crowd.
You wrote the wrong name--not sure if this has been specifically addressed, but it appeared to me to be why you were accused of not reading the thread.
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Yeah, it's probably about time to put all the evidence together, including proper sources for everything, and put it in the OP or something. Or at least to have ready for number 6... Just so that it'll be easier for people to get an overview and form their own opinion without being flamed for failing to dig up the information. Many are talking about how "awareness" of this is important: well then the thing you can do is make the information easily available in a readable format, right?
I'll make a first draft based on other peoples efforts in this thread, but maybe others can track down the missing sources and format it in a more readable way. I'll just dump it here and see if someone wants to pick it up.
+ Show Spoiler [Ingvars summary.] +On April 21 2015 17:03 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote:
Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know:
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it.
2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it.
3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute.
4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally.
5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing.
A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points?
Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter. Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on.
^^ all of these needs sources, not least the line movements and pinnacle closing the lines.
+ Show Spoiler [solar is approached by fixers] +On April 22 2015 07:36 Wuster wrote:I don't have a link for MMA's statement because I've never seen it, but here's Solar's statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/450607-solar-received-an-offer-to-fix-a-gameWhat's interesting is that KeSPA actually also gave a statement confirming that this is happening to a lot of players/teams and that the appropriate authorities were notified (presumably the police). The implication being that an investigation would be started, but of course this was a long time ago.
+ Show Spoiler [rekrul and anon comments] +
+ Show Spoiler [source for sources? :P] +On April 21 2015 23:59 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 23:53 LA_Morello wrote:
Guys, is there a link to the match or something?
I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start? Search "pinnacle" you will find all the matches. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?&q=pinnacle
+ Show Spoiler [some old BW fixing threads] +On April 21 2015 16:51 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 16:37 Disarmed wrote:
I didn't follow BW really.
To what extent was the community involved in unraveling the Savior-Scandal? How did it start? I cannot find the exact threads I was looking for as there were so many on it. This might suffice: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/119403-korea-swept-in-illegal-starcraft-league-gamblingwell shit a lot of the links in it are dead and would be in Korean. I know TL had extensive coverage of the proceedings and how everything went down including how the manager first found out about it in the practice room and how SaviOr lied directly to his face (ofc he didn't want it to be revealed). It wasn't going to change anything considering how many people were involved or knew of it happening. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/125601-match-fixing-scandal-conclusionThat is one of the wrap up posts with the players who got caught. Perhaps someone else's search engine skills is better than mine.
Also, did someone say that Snute said that MKPs game can't realistically be just playing bad? A link to that would be worthwile I think.
and ofc MVPs statement from this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/483522-mvps-statement-on-marineking
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the 12 Angry Men of Starcraft lol
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So people were betting large sums of money on byul winning, even when the potential profit from byuul winning was approaching zero?... ...............
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Here's my two explanations/reasons for why the betting line ended up that skewed
1. MKP parties too hard or plays league too much prior to proleague. Someone within mvp leaks that info that MKP is super hungover or whatever and that byul was an easy bet. It spreads and more and more people bet on byul assuming MKP is going to pull a Johnny Manziel. MKP shows up shitfaced to the proleague, is too hungover to even notice creep spread, and loses the game. Guy looks really ill in the VOD facecam. MVP strips him of captaincy as punishment.
2. MKP threw the game for someone.
I mean MKP has been playing badly enough recently that I wouldn't be surprised if he literally did ignore a proxy hatch completely sincerely. But the betting line... screams 'insider info' to get odds that skewed to begin with. Can Korean police get info of bettors from these sites? Would be interesting to see the time period when the betting line was moving the most.
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Yeah... I mean i'm all against random witch hunts. But I think the circumstances in this case are more than enough to be reasonably suspicious. Maybe there's a logical explanation, who knows, but i don't think you can hold a position that this whole thing hasn't been suspicious given what is known.
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EPT
