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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 13 2015 00:54 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 00:11 stuchiu wrote:On April 12 2015 23:32 Deathstar wrote:the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns. A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors? If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears. Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then. Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on. My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective. If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer.
Given that I think greatness is more than just results (there's a reason Boxer/Yellow are still considered some of the greatest to have ever played in Korea still), we just have a fundamental difference in what we think greatness constitutes.
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On April 13 2015 00:08 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2015 23:32 Deathstar wrote:the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns. A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors? So what ingenious alternate way do you have to compare Mvp in his prime to current Life? You're basically saying Mvp in his prime is so far inferior to current top players he would not be relevant, you have nothing to prove that. Nobody does. So naturally stuchiu uses the respective time period. And you can't even try to argue that people like herO or Zest are above a man like Mvp who has won 4 GSL titles, one of them with severe wrist issues and cervical kyphosis. The bolded part is hopefully a joke. It's a joke, right?
Bolded part is partially a joke directed at the weight put on innovation.
Mvp won 4 Gsl titles. Great. That's all we care about? Not about the context? Fruitdealer has a GSL win and Parting doesn't. That's it case closed, Fruitdealer is a greater player than Parting?
Being a runner up in 2015 Gsl is surely a greater achievement than winning a gsl in 2010 or 2011
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United States97274 Posts
did people saying sOs even read the op?
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On April 13 2015 01:03 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 00:54 Deathstar wrote:On April 13 2015 00:11 stuchiu wrote:On April 12 2015 23:32 Deathstar wrote:the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns. A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors? If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears. Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then. Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on. My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective. If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer. Given that I think greatness is more than just results (there's a reason Boxer/Yellow are still considered some of the greatest to have ever played in Korea still), we just have a fundamental difference in what we think greatness constitutes.
well thats just it isn't it, there is not concrete full proof way to measure success and therefore no full proof way to decide GOAT. Therefore you may have a great argument for your ranking (and I am sure you do) but there will still be naysayers because reasons.
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On April 13 2015 01:05 Shellshock wrote:
did people saying sOs even read the op?
thats the joke, to see who did and who didnt, I didn't but then I did
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On April 13 2015 01:03 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 00:54 Deathstar wrote:On April 13 2015 00:11 stuchiu wrote:On April 12 2015 23:32 Deathstar wrote:the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns. A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors? If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears. Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then. Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on. My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective. If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer. Given that I think greatness is more than just results (there's a reason Boxer/Yellow are still considered some of the greatest to have ever played in Korea still), we just have a fundamental difference in what we think greatness constitutes.
btw the article itself is well written and I enjoyed reading it.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 13 2015 01:03 arcane1129 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 00:58 stuchiu wrote:On April 13 2015 00:54 arcane1129 wrote:
I couldn't begin to guess how Stuchiu will rank them and I already disagree a bit with the first part of his ranking, so I guess I'll throw out what I think it should be. My personal criteria would be overall longevity and consistency as most important with more recent results trumping past history, level of dominance playing a role, and a nod to innovation. I don't like too much of an emphasis solely on the number of gold medals.
1. life
2. mvp
3. taeja
4. innovation
5-9 interchangeable: mc, herO, sos, zest, parting
10. polt
11. nestea
12. mma
13. bomber
14. soo
15. drg
16. rain
17. marineking
18. maru
19. leenock
innovation is less consistent than Polt, MC, MMA, herO, Zest, Parting, Bomber, soO, Rain and Maru. At any point in time have you considered innovation not a top 5 terran or even top 10 overall player? He's probably far and away the best team league player for the past 2 years, had one of the most dominating periods of any player stats-wise, and both older and recent gold medals.
Innovation dropped off for the latter half of 2013 and both early seasons of 2014.
Maru won OSL over Inno, got 5 top 4s in Korean/Blizzcon lans, still got a ro8, did worse in the 2014 S3, but won SSL and got second at IEM Taipei, whereas inno got dropped in ro8 gsl/ro8 IEM WC and ro32 in SSL. By your own criteria Maru > Innovation.
And his team league results you mean proleague? Maru is 9-5, Inno is 8-3.
Maru has been Top 3 for his race since his OSL in 2013. He hasn't let it go from then to now.
Basically by your own criteria, Maru is far superior to Innovation.
Well, it takes too long to do the rest, but thats a fundamental issue I saw in your list.
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On April 13 2015 00:54 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 00:53 coloursheep wrote:On April 12 2015 23:49 Tanzklaue wrote:On April 12 2015 23:16 coloursheep wrote:On April 12 2015 23:07 Scarecrow wrote:
1. MVP
2. MC
3. Life
4. Taeja
5. Nestea
6. Zest
7. Polt
8. Innovation
9. MMA
10. sOs I think you might be the first person to get the top 3 in the correct order i had them in that order on like page 5. I said think and might, but credit where credits due, you were right before him either way you are all wrong, no way in hell MC will be above Life
If they did this list two years from now and life was still consistenly good and MC not then sure but for now MC's longevity puts him ahead
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On April 13 2015 00:54 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 00:11 stuchiu wrote:On April 12 2015 23:32 Deathstar wrote:the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns. A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors? If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears. Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then. Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on. My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective. If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer.
I don't think a GSL win today should have more value than a GSL win in 2011.
Saying the level of play is higher today is subjective; you could also argue that it was harder in 2011 to win the GSL because the meta wasn't figured out as much and you had to be more innovative to be succesful.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 13 2015 01:07 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 01:03 stuchiu wrote:On April 13 2015 00:54 Deathstar wrote:On April 13 2015 00:11 stuchiu wrote:On April 12 2015 23:32 Deathstar wrote:the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns. A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors? If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears. Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then. Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on. My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective. If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer. Given that I think greatness is more than just results (there's a reason Boxer/Yellow are still considered some of the greatest to have ever played in Korea still), we just have a fundamental difference in what we think greatness constitutes. btw the article itself is well written and I enjoyed reading it.
thanks!
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On April 13 2015 01:08 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 00:54 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 13 2015 00:53 coloursheep wrote:On April 12 2015 23:49 Tanzklaue wrote:On April 12 2015 23:16 coloursheep wrote:On April 12 2015 23:07 Scarecrow wrote:
1. MVP
2. MC
3. Life
4. Taeja
5. Nestea
6. Zest
7. Polt
8. Innovation
9. MMA
10. sOs I think you might be the first person to get the top 3 in the correct order i had them in that order on like page 5. I said think and might, but credit where credits due, you were right before him either way you are all wrong, no way in hell MC will be above Life If they did this list two years from now and life was still consistenly good and MC not then sure but for now MC's longevity puts him ahead
Im not saying I disagree with you, I am saying that most likely stuchiu does
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On April 13 2015 00:58 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 00:54 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 13 2015 00:24 Circumstance wrote:On April 13 2015 00:23 Rocket-Bear wrote:On April 12 2015 20:34 Rocket-Bear wrote:Scimmed through the read and didn't see a smiliar poll. Looks like most agree that Life and Mvp takes 1 and 2. So who do you think gets the 1 spot? Poll: Number 1Mvp (47) 63% Life (28) 37% 75 total votes Your vote: Number 1 (Vote): Life
(Vote): Mvp
Please keep voting Stuchiu will put someone else number one. Who was really important and evil? Sniper INCA hyvaa Has Sniper Sniper INCA Has RoRo? I'm off to write my top 10 of evil now.
no plz, hyvaa and RoRo shouldnt even be on that list, that was a joke to appease the masses
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It all depends on how much you value foreign tournaments wins. You can argue Taeja, Polt and MC to be either top5 or not even top10 if you argue foreign tournaments are "easy".
I'd guess
1 MVP, 2 Life, 3 MMA, 4 MC, 5 Taeja, 6 Polt, then I don't know. Nestea, Zest, Innovation, Parting?
First two, no discussion.
Next, MMA had proper Korean success, Polt had one good run in Korea but that's it, Taeja no Korean results but solo carried the entire team in teamleagues and obviously won an insane amount of foreign tournaments.
The last four I have no idea, it's hard to compare them. Innovation had by far the most impressive peak, but he couldn't keep it up. Parting is always around with his silly allins. Zest had a strong streak, but he's relatively "new". Nestea is a hero.
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On April 13 2015 01:12 mechengineer123 wrote:
It all depends on how much you value foreign tournaments wins. You can argue Taeja, Polt and MC to be either top5 or not even top10 if you argue foreign tournaments are "easy".
I'd guess
1 MVP, 2 Life, 3 MMA, 4 MC, 5 Taeja, 6 Polt, then I don't know. Nestea, Zest, Innovation, Parting?
First two, no discussion.
Next, MMA had proper Korean success, Polt had one good run in Korea but that's it, Taeja no Korean results but solo carried the entire team in teamleagues and obviously won an insane amount of foreign tournaments.
The last four I have no idea, it's hard to compare them. Innovation had by far the most impressive peak, but he couldn't keep it up. Parting is always around with his silly allins. Zest had a strong streak, but he's relatively "new". Nestea is a hero.
MMA won a GSL where the Ro32 had 20 terrans and the Ro8 had 6. Taeja made the semifinals twice during a period where Terran was doing terribly. Saying 'no results' is a putting it far too strongly.
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On April 13 2015 01:08 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 01:03 arcane1129 wrote:On April 13 2015 00:58 stuchiu wrote:On April 13 2015 00:54 arcane1129 wrote:
I couldn't begin to guess how Stuchiu will rank them and I already disagree a bit with the first part of his ranking, so I guess I'll throw out what I think it should be. My personal criteria would be overall longevity and consistency as most important with more recent results trumping past history, level of dominance playing a role, and a nod to innovation. I don't like too much of an emphasis solely on the number of gold medals.
1. life
2. mvp
3. taeja
4. innovation
5-9 interchangeable: mc, herO, sos, zest, parting
10. polt
11. nestea
12. mma
13. bomber
14. soo
15. drg
16. rain
17. marineking
18. maru
19. leenock
innovation is less consistent than Polt, MC, MMA, herO, Zest, Parting, Bomber, soO, Rain and Maru. At any point in time have you considered innovation not a top 5 terran or even top 10 overall player? He's probably far and away the best team league player for the past 2 years, had one of the most dominating periods of any player stats-wise, and both older and recent gold medals. Innovation dropped off for the latter half of 2013 and both early seasons of 2014. Maru won OSL over Inno, got 5 top 4s in Korean/Blizzcon lans, still got a ro8, did worse in the 2014 S3, but won SSL and got second at IEM Taipei, whereas inno got dropped in ro8 gsl/ro8 IEM WC and ro32 in SSL. By your own criteria Maru > Innovation. And his team league results you mean proleague? Maru is 9-5, Inno is 8-3. Maru has been Top 3 for his race since his OSL in 2013. He hasn't let it go from then to now. Basically by your own criteria, Maru is far superior to Innovation. Well, it takes too long to do the rest, but thats a fundamental issue I saw in your list.
You're probably right that by my criteria I should move Maru up from where I have him (I just threw my list together in a matter of a couple of minutes without putting in the research you have). However, I'm not talking about just this current proleague. Innovation has done incredibly well in the past seasons as well (and STX won of course with Inno at the helm) and he dominated the ATC during his "slump." Innovation was also considered by many to the best terran at the end of WOL.
Maru has also been notorious for doing poorly in KR qualifiers for the past couple of years, which are often just as stacked as any GSL, and Inno has a flew of other achievements you didn't mention (check the trophy case for anyone reading http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/players/663_INnoVation). His stats are also quite a bit better in 2/3 matchups. I can't reasonably understand Inno being any less than 8th or so using ANY set of criteria, and I'm still certain that using my criteria he belongs far above Maru at least for now.
That said I could easily see Maru moving far up the ranks in the next 1-2 years if he keeps it up.
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^That said I figure I should add that I appreciate the work put in and enjoyed reading it and the discussion it promotes regardless of ranking, so thanks Stuchiu.
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I love these articles. Greatness isn't something one can measure and it isn't just about wins, which leads to a lot of interesting and amusing discussions haha. Anyway well written article, enjoyed reading it 
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 13 2015 01:24 arcane1129 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 01:08 stuchiu wrote:On April 13 2015 01:03 arcane1129 wrote:On April 13 2015 00:58 stuchiu wrote:On April 13 2015 00:54 arcane1129 wrote:
I couldn't begin to guess how Stuchiu will rank them and I already disagree a bit with the first part of his ranking, so I guess I'll throw out what I think it should be. My personal criteria would be overall longevity and consistency as most important with more recent results trumping past history, level of dominance playing a role, and a nod to innovation. I don't like too much of an emphasis solely on the number of gold medals.
1. life
2. mvp
3. taeja
4. innovation
5-9 interchangeable: mc, herO, sos, zest, parting
10. polt
11. nestea
12. mma
13. bomber
14. soo
15. drg
16. rain
17. marineking
18. maru
19. leenock
innovation is less consistent than Polt, MC, MMA, herO, Zest, Parting, Bomber, soO, Rain and Maru. At any point in time have you considered innovation not a top 5 terran or even top 10 overall player? He's probably far and away the best team league player for the past 2 years, had one of the most dominating periods of any player stats-wise, and both older and recent gold medals. Innovation dropped off for the latter half of 2013 and both early seasons of 2014. Maru won OSL over Inno, got 5 top 4s in Korean/Blizzcon lans, still got a ro8, did worse in the 2014 S3, but won SSL and got second at IEM Taipei, whereas inno got dropped in ro8 gsl/ro8 IEM WC and ro32 in SSL. By your own criteria Maru > Innovation. And his team league results you mean proleague? Maru is 9-5, Inno is 8-3. Maru has been Top 3 for his race since his OSL in 2013. He hasn't let it go from then to now. Basically by your own criteria, Maru is far superior to Innovation. Well, it takes too long to do the rest, but thats a fundamental issue I saw in your list. You're probably right that by my criteria I should move Maru up from where I have him (I just threw my list together in a matter of a couple of minutes without putting in the research you have). However, I'm not talking about just this current proleague. Innovation has done incredibly well in the past seasons as well (and STX won of course with Inno at the helm) and he dominated the ATC during his "slump." Innovation was also considered by many to the best terran at the end of WOL. Maru has also been notorious for doing poorly in KR qualifiers for the past couple of years, which are often just as stacked as any GSL, and Inno has a flew of other achievements you didn't mention (check the trophy case for anyone reading http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/players/663_INnoVation). His stats are also quite a bit better in 2/3 matchups. I can't reasonably understand Inno being any less than 8th or so using ANY set of criteria, and I'm still certain that using my criteria he belongs far above Maru at least for now. That said I could easily see Maru moving far up the ranks in the next 1-2 years if he keeps it up.
I only focused on things I considered important, offline premier events. If you start counting qualifiers/online events you may have to throw up Gumiho on the list for winning 37 leifeng cups against Code S/ode A player or something. San beat every player in 2012 in qualifiers put couldn't stick 2 wins together at the real thing. When you star including online events, it gets murky real quick.
And as you said consistency with more relevance to recent results. Maru has been more consistent in the recent results.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 13 2015 01:26 arcane1129 wrote:
^That said I figure I should add that I appreciate the work put in and enjoyed reading it and the discussion it promotes regardless of ranking, so thanks Stuchiu.
thanks!
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MKP being 11 makes me sad, but I can't argue with the reasoning.
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EPT
