Making a list like this was always problematic. With nearly 5 years of gameplay there is a huge amount of information to parse. First, there is prestige of a tournament, measuring and making judgements on the GSL as compared to international LANS, tournament formats, and paths taken to the Championships. Next, the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats: the increased talent pool in modern times, the mass migration of KeSPA pros, and then the mass retirement of former KeSPA players and ESF players. Consistency over a long period of time as compared to peak/clutch has often been considered one of the most important measures, but their effect on the game itself is equally important. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
Another thing to keep in mind is the tiering of tournaments. A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments. Blizzcon is at the highest because after 2013 it became the end all for the year, increasing the amount of pressure to win it. GSL is next as it has had the best format since Jan 2011, has the most preparation per round and has the best competition. The format and amount of players is what puts it slightly above the other Korean LANs like OSL, SSL, KeSPA/Hot6ix Cup, WCS KR 2012 and WCG KR. International tournaments are roughly below them, though depending on the player pool it can go all the way up being very close to GSL levels of prestige if many top players attended the event.
It is inevitable that many will argue for or against the inclusion or exclusion of certain players in the overall top 15 depending on what criteria you’ve used to judge their placing. However, as there is no definitive list to argue for or against, this is my attempt to codify a list of the all time greats as of this very moment.
Leenock vs Life - GSL Season 1 2013 Group G ro32 Set 1 | Set 2
In order to become the greatest in your field you need a rival. Someone that pushes you to the breaking point and forces you to surpass your own limits and achieve a new level of skill. For Kasparov it was Karpov. For Flash it was Jaedong. And for Life in 2012, it was Leenock. The two of them have met 5 times: GSL Code A, GSL Blizzard Cup, MLG Finals, IPL 5 and Iron Squid. Each of the series was incredibly close and explosive as both loved to fight. If Life hadn’t been there, if Life was just less clutch in 1 game than he was, perhaps we’d be talking about Leenock as the first young prodigy of the zerg race.
Yet even in the shadow of Life, Leenock had huge achievements of his own. He won MLG Providence, IPL 5 and got second at GSL November 2011 and MLG Fall 2012. While three of those 4 were international events, the player lists that attended them were strong enough that they were as close as an international tournament could get to becoming as difficult as the GSL—the only major difference was the amount of players, preparation time and format. Even then, the marathon style of international LANs required specific skills that couldn’t be emulated in the GSL such as dealing with delays and technical issues and adapting to a vast array of players and play styles on the fly with no preparation.
And even in the shadow of Life, Leenock could pull out something magical, something that was so distinctly him that you knew after watching it that no other zerg, not even Life, could emulate it. For Leenock, that moment was in game 4 against Life in the MLG Fall 2012 Finals. Life had gotten into an impeccable positions as he maxed out on roaches, hydras and infestors while securing his 4th. Leenock was stuck on three bases with mass roaches and burrow movement. Left with no recourse, Leenock forced open a path of victory with amazingly fast simultaneous multi-pronged attacks on Cloud Kingdom in a flurry of movement that left Life always a step behind. It was a beautiful sequence of attacks flowing into more attacks as he punished Life’s overeager 4th. A 4th base that would have been the right move against anyone else but Leenock in that one moment.
Beyond that, he won a few tier 2 events in MLG Summer 2012 and Dreamhack Stockholm 2013. The biggest difference between these two events and the others was that the player level was much lower with only around 10 players that could realistically take the Championship and among those were only a handful of world destroyers. Even during his relative slumps he was fairly consistent, generally making Code S and keeping his name on the maps with small results in Korea.
Style of Play:
The first time I saw Leenock play was in GSL Open 2 2010. In that season he played against NaDa. A BW legend and easily one of the greatest to have ever played the game. An icon of professionalism and universally respected by his peers and fans. Then Leenock 6 pooled him. Afterwards they played two macro games—the second was the first game by a terran to ever transition from mech into bio, a style that would re-emerge nearly 3 years later in HotS. And in many ways that has defined the entire way he has looked at the game.
Leenock loves to attack with unorthodox openings. During the era of 2012, Leenock had the most one-off builds of any zerg including: double spire, mass infestors, nydus, roach busts, roach burrow builds, roach bane busts, early pool all ins, 3 hatch all slow ling all ins. He had also incorporated multiple Nestea all-ins like the proxy hatch at the 3rd against terran and the lair rush into proxy spore queen roach bane bust against terrans.The only zerg that could use a larger variety of builds at that time was Curious. And his mastery of BL/infestor was the lynchpin that allowed Leenock to have a strong stable backbone to his insane play. Perhaps his signature play was his tactical usage of burrow. Particularly his burrowed baneling mines, burrowed roach play and burrowed infestor play.
Because of that he fell off nearly immediately after HotS when both terran and protoss had much stronger early game defense that nullified a huge amount of his openings and BL/infestor play was nerfed. This left Leenock to try to reinvent his game from the ground up.
Comparisons between sOs and Leenock:
There is a very interesting and real case for sOs replacing Leenock as 15th place on the list. sOs has won Hot6ix, IEM WC, Blizzcon and got second at WCS Season 1 Finals 2013. In a case like this it is easier to look at the paths they took for each of their major results.
Paths: Leenock MLG Providence: Oz, loss to DRG, MMA, idra, Huk, Mvp, DRG, Naniwa GSL November 2011: Polt, Huk, Nestea, aLive, Mvp - Loss to jjakji MLG Fall 2012: Rain, San, loss to Oz, Rain, Oz, Bomber, Bomber again, loss to Life IPL 5: Life, Polt, Violet, Violet again
sOs WCS Season 1 Finals: Symbol, HerO, Alicia, Soulkey, Loss to Inno Blizzcon: HerO, Polt, Bomber, Jaedong IEM WC: Oz, Jjakji, Taeja, herO Hot6ix Cup: Rain, TY, Innovation, SkyHigh, MarineKing
For brevity’s sake I've taken out the no-names and middling tier players (Like Apocalypse and TheSTC in Leenock’s run). Now let us look at the individual runs. In Leenock’s MLG Providence run every player I noted was around the top 5 of their race. The weakest player there was Idra, who was still in the top 10 of his race at the time. Leenock’s only loss was to DRG and he still came back in an extended series to beat him. The only weak opponent in his GSL run was aLive who didn't hit his peak performance until the beginning of 2012. In his MLG 2012 all his opponents were in the upper class, though San still had nerve issues at the time, making the victory over him less impressive. And in IPL5 he beat Life, Polt and Violet. Life was the best zerg and Polt was hitting around top 5 terran. Violet was somewhere in the top 10, but what made him interesting was that he played his best by far in international events so a victory over him was very strong.
In comparison sOs had a very strong run in the WCS Season 1 Finals (though its hard to rate HerO and Alicia as both had moved to WCS NA so there wasn't enough vs Korean games to judge). His Blizzcon run was just a bit weaker as HerO was in bad form, though the rest of the run was really strong. At IEM WC the only two impressive victories were over Taeja and herO. At Hot6ix, I was only impressed with Rain, Innovation and MarineKing. TY has had massive problems in individual tournaments and played badly in bo3+ series. SkyHigh, while having masterful TvT was fairly weak in PvT.
In total, Leenock had tougher opponents in the 4 runs he had, though he only won 2. While at the same time sOs had weaker runs, especially Hot6ix and IEM WC, he won them. In the end the larger pool of competitive players was what swayed me towards Leenock over sOs. Another factor that made sOs a contender was his impact on the metagame. Early 2013 protoss play was largely impacted by what sOs had popularized during his first GSL run in 2013 and while Leenock had a huge variety of strategies, so did sOs. This favors sOs as his builds and compositions entered the metagame as standard for a time and are still sometimes used today.
Beyond that the other deciding favor that made me favor Leenock over sOs was consistency. sOs was super dominant in some of his runs but also fell off for months on end. After getting 2nd in WCS Season finals, he didn't do anything all year until Blizzcon. That form extended to the end of the first season of GSL in 2014 before he fell off again and reappeared at the end for Hot6ix Cup. Overall Leenock has had a longer stretch of results over a longer period of time. Though just barely.
#14 | DRG, Man of Pusan
Achievements: Tier 1: Blizzard Cup 2011 - 2nd GSL 2012 Season 1 - 1st OSL 2012 - 2nd
DRG vs INnoVation - Code S 2013 Season 3 ro32 Group F Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3
IDs or aliases are a unique phenomenon in eSports, another way to distinguish yourself from your peers and make a new name and identity for yourself. For most players though its just a harmless nickname and not given much thought. But every once in a while you get an ID with meaning, an ID that can tell you something interesting, something that can inform you about the very core of the player. DongRaeGu is such an ID.
The Man of Pusan, Park Soo Ho took on the handle of DongRaeGu, a district in Pusan, his hometown. He took that place and made himself the metaphorical and physical representation of his home—he was later given official recognition by his town to wear a badge and represent them. And represent he did as he became the zerg to inherit Nestea’s position as the greatest zerg on earth and fought for the throne of the strongest in early 2012.
Yet you cannot talk about DRG without noting the parallels between him and his greatest rival, MMA. Both were chosen by Boxer to be the next great stars of SC2. Both became aces of their team. Both fought each other in their primes in GSTL and the BlizzCup Finals. Both made names for themselves in MLG. And both hit a downturn in their careers before picking themselves back up again (though DRG could only make it to the playoffs in GSL). For MMA, he had to leave Korea or be engulfed in controversy and drama that would have consumed him and dogged him at every step. For DRG, he stayed in Korea because in his heart of hearts, he was and would forever be a man of his people. He could no more abandon Korea than he could get rid of his own name. And so he stayed.
And that was what broke him. In his 2012 run, for the first time ever they were going to host both the GSTL and GSL Finals in Pusan. DRG had made it to the semi-finals of both. DRG fell in both. For a man who loved his home more than anyone else this was too much to bear. And though he still played well throughout the rest of the year, you could feel that onerous failure haunt him for the rest of his days.
Which was why it was unexpected to see him nearly a year later challenge INnoVation. INnoVation was on top of the world. He was the greatest TvZ player by a mile. He had only ever dropped 1 map in a late game TvZ macro game throughout all of 2013. You could trick him, you could make him choke, but you could not beat him at his own game. Until the day he met DRG. For one last night, for one last match, the 2011 era of DRG came back roaring to life. It was a clash against INnoVation in his prime against DRG, a year past his. And DRG fought INnoVation in his game in his best matchup and won.
After that brief moment in the spotlight, DRG burned out again, and just like before, he pulled himself out of despair to make it to the Ro8. In 2014, the entire MVP team disbanded. Choya reformed it later, but the entire family that DRG had grown up with was disbursed into the wind. He had no home and he had no team. People expected retirement. Instead DRG got back up and fought against an entire system. It was DRG against the world. DRG against the entire KeSPA system. And for one month he fought them all with no team, no sponsorship, with just the help of Catz and some ex-MVP teammates. He then won Red Bull Global and pushed his momentum all the way to the GSL Ro8, where he was finally cut down by the man he had turned mortal an year earlier, INnoVation.
The quality of a player can be judged not by how strong he looks during his prime, but after his fall. And DRG can account himself as one of the greatest.
Style of Play
There is a concept in SC2 called a timing attack. It is a strategy predicated on attacking at the exact moment where your army is at its strongest in relation to the enemy army. In many ways that is how DRG plays, though there are important differences between a normal timing attack and what DRG does. For DRG it isn't predicated on upgrades or army composition advantages, but rather he hits the exact moment in the game where DRG’s skills shine the most, the mid to mid-late game.
DRG’s best games have him hit his peak at this exact time where all of the best aspects of his play come out. DRG has amazing mechanics which translate to great map awareness and larvae injects (something that becomes much less valuable as the games goes on). At the same time it utilizes his great tactical sense of engagement in mid to large army scuffles that rely mostly on quick tier 2 units (mutas, hydras, speed banes, roaches) that pressure the other player into a fast paced tussle with constant battles. This allows him to overwhelm the opponent at a time where his skill eclipses theirs for that brief moment in the game.
The most notable examples of this can be found in his series against INnoVation in 2013. Before that game, INnoVation was viewed as a God of TvZ. A player that had almost never lost a macro ZvT (the only two losses being to Soulkey, 1 in Proleague and 1 when he was on tilt in the GSL Finals). Beyond Soulkey, no one had even gotten close to scratching him. Until DRG played him in that GSL Group where they played three games head to head with both playing their most preferred styles in ZvT. And DRG succeeded. In many ways that was the fall of INnoVation: before that game there was an aura of invincibility in that matchup yet afterwards, he was just another mortal.
As if bookending his impeccable mid game along with his uncertain late game, DRG was fairly susceptible to early game attacks. And in the later stages of the game after his peak timing, DRG fell off dramatically as his style was incompatible with the slower tier 3 units of zerg.
This is not to say DRG was a one trick pony. He also had incredible intelligence which he used to refine his builds and play that allowed him to survive early aggression and all-ins. And while rare, he showed he was willing to throw in unorthodox strategies (most notably in his MMA finals where he went roach bane drop). He also had decent preparation given the chance to study his opponents. The black mark on DRG’s career was his inability to ever wrap his head around protoss and it has been a huge detriment to his career post 2012 as he could never find a way to hit that DRG timing against protoss like he had in early 2012.
Difference between DRG and Leenock
If you just take a glance at their achievements, it seems like DRG should have a clear advantage as he went the distance in three Korean LANs, and though he lost two of them, it was to MMA and Rain in their respective primes. However if you look internationally, Leenock won both MLG Providence and IPL 5. Both were near GSL level in terms of competitive player pools. In addition he lost to Life at MLG Fall 2012, another tournament that was very close to GSL level competition. DRG’s OSL on the other hand had a bad format: split preliminaries between KeSPA and non-KeSPA players, split Ro32 for KeSPA and non KeSPA players, and a Ro16 round robin Bo1. For now here is a list of the paths they took for their major tournaments:
DRG Tier 1 Blizzard Cup 2011 - Mvp, MC, HerO, loss to Stephano, MC, loss to MMA GSL: Loss to Genius, sC, JYP, Nestea, MKP, Parting, Gumiho, Genius OSL: Jangbi, MKP, loss to Rain, Oz, MC loss to Rain
Tier 2 MLG Winter Arena 2012 : Ganzi, loss to Parting, Sase, stc, ret, Naniwa, Parting, Oz, Huk, Loss to MKP MLG Winter Championship 2012: Naniwa, JYP, Heart, Loss to MKP MLG Spring Championship 2012: Oz, MC Heart, loss to Socke, Puma, MKP, Alicia Iron Squid 2: Ganzi, Leenock, Creator, Stephano, Nestea, loss to Life
Leenock Tier 1: MLG Providence 2011: Oz, loss to DRG, MMA, idra, Huk, Mvp, DRG, Naniwa GSL November 2011: Polt, Huk, Nestea, aLive, Mvp - Loss to jjakji MLG Fall 2012: Rain, San, loss to Oz, Rain, Oz, Bomber, Bomber again, loss to Life IPL 5: Life, Polt, Violet, Violet again
Tier 2: MLG Summer Championship 2012: Alicia, aLive, Violet, stc, First Dreamhack Open Stockholm 2013: Gumiho, Grubby, HerO, Naniwa
Given these paths, Leenock’s results at MLG Providence and IPL 5 were more similar to DRG’s GSL win and more impressive than DRG’s OSL loss. At the same time, Leenock’s GSL was about the same as DRG’s BlizzCup. The difference is that Leenock’s tier 2 events weren’t nearly as tough as DRG’s even though Leenock won both of his while DRG got 2nd in three-fourths. What clinches it for me with DRG over Leenock was one thing: consistency. DRG was the best zerg for the first half of 2012 until Life won GSL. And even then he was very solidly the third best zerg after both Life and Leenock for the rest of 2012. While both DRG and Leenock had a hard time after HotS came out, DRG has had more results at a higher level in the expansion, giving DRG the slightest edge over Leenock.
#13 | Maru, The Youngest Veteran
Achievements
Tier 1: OSL 2013 - 1st GSL Season 3 2013 - Top 4 WCS Season 3 Finals 2013 - Top 4 Bizzcon 2013 - Top 4 GSL Season 2 2014 - Top 4 SSL 2015 - 1st IEM Taipei - 2nd
Greatest Series Played: Maru vs Dear - GSL Season 3 Semi-finals Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3 | Set 4
“That’s why I think Maru will be good for a long time. Because he started very young. He didn’t start at the top, he climbed his way steadily there.” - Naniwa
34:52
Maru is one of the members of the first class. The rare breed of player that entered the first ever GSL Open and have survived nearly 5 years later after numerous patches, metas, influxes of new players and an expansion. And for Maru most of it was spent in complete seclusion and failure. It took him a year to qualify for Code A before he dropped out. Then another 6 months to qualify again. Then another year and a half before he won his first ever Championship in HotS.
Many call Maru a young prodigy. A player with incredible talent that was destined to be at the top of the SC2 world like Life. Yet their roads to the top could not be any more different. Maru grinded game after game after game; he spent years trying to get to the top only to be met with constant mediocrity. Life on the other hand had been playing SC2 as a hobby for all of 2011. He and his entire team was picked up by StarTale where the new coach made Life start to take the game seriously. In a month's time Life had skyrocketed to the top of SC2.
Perhaps Maru does have a natural talent for the game. Even in his first ever GSL Open Season 1 game, Maru showed a real grasp of micro as he eliminated Cella. Yet that talent was not one that came easily. It took years of toiling, of playing, of perfecting a way to play that expressed who he was and how he believed the game should be played. In comparison, all it took for Life to become one of the greatest players of all time was to take the game seriously and have a good regimen from StarTale.
Yet their very paths to the top are telling on how the two players’ careers have played out. Life went on a slump following his early 2013 MLG and never reached the top again until the end of 2014. Once Maru reached the top of OSL, he stayed there and never let it go and has been one of the top 3 terrans in the world until now. And unlike the previous members on this list, Maru still has the capacity to grow, to increase his legacy, and is one of the few threats left that may actually stop Life from taking the throne.
Play Style:
I can say without a shadow of doubt that there is no terran player that has better micro in the world than Maru. In fact there has been no terran player since Maru’s OSL run in 2013 that has even come close to reaching his level of control in any of the matchups. Maru has taken micro to the extreme. For a basic run down of his abilities: splits bio forces in such a way that single marauders tank colossus shots, microes marines in such a way that he moves back the marine that has been charged by chargelots to the back to get maximum damage, innovated widow mine drops, created widow mine burrow micro, and reinstated drop style play in all matchups against the run of the meta.
Maru’s vision of SC2 is simple in concept, but exceptionally difficult in execution. Maru believes that every battle no matter how small should be won. That every small scale engagement should be won so that the momentum, the cost efficiency and the psychological advantage stays in Maru’s control from beginning to end. And because of this belief in his own micro and battlefield superiority, Maru has a large number of builds and compositions he can use. He’s used bio, mech, mech into bio, bio tank vs protoss, cloaked banshees in TvP, and he was the first player to use bio mine pushes pre-WM buff. And though rare, should Maru go into the late game, his max army control is also amazing and he has very nearly won lost games off of the back of that alone.
The most underrated aspect about Maru’s play is his preparation, the greatest example of that being his semi-finals match against INnoVation. INnoVationhas always been static in the way he plays and views the game. Because of that Maru went for the counter in game 1 and opened up with a 1/1/1, surprising him with cloaked banshee harass that softened him enough to die to the attack. In the game afterwards, INnoVation tried to hard counter cloaked banshees by getting a raven and marines. Maru predicted this and did a proxy starport into marine hellion harass and then finished it off with a double drop into INnoVation's main. The third game Maru followed it up with an 11/11 predicting INnoVation's love of greed again and instantly picked up the third win. After that victory, the series was sealed and INnoVation was easy pickings for Maru in the 4th game. Yet recently Maru’s preparation has gotten worse since joining Jin Air as he is given much less time to prepare for his individual tournaments (once citing he had only gotten a day to prepare for a Ro16) and that the team had wanted him to focus on Proleague.
Difference between Maru and DRG
This ranking was easier to decide as both DRG and Maru have had a similar amount of time at their peaks (1.5 years). The difference is that Maru had much more success in the Korean leagues and put on much stronger consistent results from 2013 to now. In the 13 Korean or Korean level LANs attended he has only ever done badly in the WCS Season 2 Finals (his second time out of the country) and dropped out in two GSLs in two group stages (both groups happened to be the group of death). After that the worst result he’s gotten has been Ro8 or higher consistently against the top players in the world. This is even more impressive when you consider that Maru was the only terran doing well at all in Korean during the Blink Era (late 2013 to mid 2014).
#12 | soO, Icon of Second
Achievements: Tier 1: GSL 2013 Season 3 - 2nd GSL 2014 Season 1- 2nd GSL Global Championship - Top 4 GSL 2014 Season 2- 2nd GSL 2014 Season 3 - 2nd
The beginning of soO’s career can be summed up in one sentence: “Look at me!” He was a man recruited into SKT T1, a player who dreamed of becoming like Boxer. Instead he found himself in the SKT Zerg line, a line of players whose legacy was to become losers, quacks and bumblers. And even once he had reached the finals, it was quickly dismissed as Dear was on a hot streak and turned a 2.328% chance (as calculated by Die4eva) into a reality as he entered Blizzcon at the death.
And in his next GSL Finals, soO was once again done in, this time by Zest, the rise of an all time great. And again soO was forgotten, soO was left in the dark. Most players get some infamy after reaching a GSL Finals. Reach 2 GSL Finals in a row and you’re treading in a place only Mvp has ever walked. And yet the talk of the town was Zest. And again soO reached a GSL Finals. One could have been a fluke. Two forced people to pay attention. At three they were forced to accept begrudgingly that soO was the real deal. And again he lost, this time to Classic. A strong protoss, but not one that had shown the form of Dear or the greatness of Zest.
It was during his fourth consecutive GSL finals run that soO finally got the respect that had been his due for months. And he got it by killing God. Flash was on a hot streak. He was murdering Proleague, destroying individual leagues and had just won one of the toughest IEM Tournaments to have ever been run. After one IEM victory, the world had been convinced that not only was Flash the best terran on earth, but he was going to win GSL, KeSPA Cup and then miraculously qualify for Blizzcon. And again soO was left forgotten. After one victory Flash had become the hero, the man destined to revolutionize SC2 and bring in a new age. After 3 consecutive GSL Finals, soO could barely get people to remember he existed. But he changed all that as he took an axe to God. In two games Flash got the early game advantage. He killed 29 drones in the first game. Flash denied soO his 4th base in the second game. Yet soO easily overwhelmed Flash in the first and very nearly took Flash out in the second. In the third game when they both finally arrived in the mid game on even footing, soO smashed Flash into the ground.
Now all eyes were on soO as he made his way through the pretenders. He narrowly beat Zest in the Ro4 and made it to his fourth consecutive GSL Finals. And for a fourth time, he lost. soO had finally gotten the world to notice, to acknowledge his strength. But he wasn’t the champion he had set out to be. soO had spent his entire life trying to become the next Boxer and instead he found himself as YellOw.
Play Style:
The first thing to note about soO is he is just mentally fragile in finals. If there wasn’t a mental road block before, there almost certainly is now. For that reason many call soO a player with a weak mentality. But if you look at his runs altogether it tells a different story. Yes, he’s bad at finals, but any time before that he can be very clutch when he has to be, most notably when he beat Life 4-3 to get to his second GSL Finals and when he beat his nemesis Zest 4-3 to get to his 4th GSL final.
The second thing to note is that soO plays his best by far when he prepares for Bo3+ series. He comes up with fairly strong plans for every map and is extremely flexible with his strategies depending on what he is seeing that day.
This is even scarier once you realize that soO is an all-rounder zerg. He can play both aggro and defensive. He is fairly good at both defense and offense. He has a wide variety of builds and is the most open of all Korean zergs that freely steals builds and takes advice from the foreign scene. In fact soO has credited Catz numerous times for helping him in preparing for matches as well as being an integral part of his plan in defeating Zest in the semi-finals. The only super stylistic thing about soO is he prefers muta/corruptor and tech switches in ZvP far more than the swarmhost or aggressive styles of other zergs.
Beyond that his ZvT was especially scary as he had the best larvae injects of any zerg (especially at points in the game where other zergs get distracted by drops, harass or fighting, soO always keeps it up). Because of that he often overwhelms his opponents in the matchup and was able to show that zerg could easily fight with 2/2 ling/bling against a 3/3 bio terran off creep if you had the momentum, better engagement and the mechanics to pull it off.
Difference between soO and Maru:
This was another really close choice. Here are the paths they took for their tournaments:
soO Tier 1: GSL Season 3 2013: YongHwa, loss to Super, Bomber, loss to Jjakji, Super, INnoVation, PartinG, Soulkey, loss to Dear. GSL Season 1 2014: Panic, sOs, Trap, Bbyong, PartinG, Life, loss to Zest GSL Global Championship: Oz, loss to San, Maru, loss to Zest GSL Season 2 2014: RagnaroK, loss to TRUE, Trap, herO, loss to Classic, Parting, Solar, TRUE, loss to Classic GSL Season 3 2014: Trust, DRG, DRG again, Flash, Stats, Zest, loss to INnoVation
Tier 2: DH Stockholm: Leenock, Classic, ForGG, loss to Solar
Maru
Tier 1: OSL: EffOrt, sOs, Trap, SuperNova, Symbol, INnoVation, Rain GSL S3: Sleep, Bbyong, loss to PartinG, Losira, Flash, jjakji, loss to Dear WCS Season 3 Finals: soO, duckdeok, MMA, loss to Dear Blizzcon: MC, duckdeok, loss to Jaedong Hot6ix Cup: soO, lost to Soulkey GSL Season 2 2014: MyuNgSiK, DRG, Dark, Stork, Soulkey, lost to Classic NSSL 2015: loss to Dream, TY, Dark, Leenock, Stats, Dream IEM Taipei: TRUE, loss to PartinG, Hydra, herO, Soulkey, loss to Life
Overall I give a slight edge in difficulty to soO. soO had to beat INnoVation, Parting 3 times, Soulkey, sOs, Trap twice, Life, Zest, herO, Solar, TRUE, DRG twice, Maru, Flash and Stats to make it to his four consecutive GSL Finals. I took into account when soO had played each of them and every player on this list was either a top 5 player or their race or higher at the point they met.
In comparison Maru played sOs, Trap, Symbol, INnoVation, Rain, Flash, Jjakji, soO twice, MMA, MC, duckdeok twice, DRG, Soulkey, Dark once (the time in 2014 Dark was not close to top 5 of his race), Leenock, Stats, Dream, herO.
The breadth of top tier competition soO faced was stronger and it was all during his runs in GSL which gave time for all his opponents to prepare for him. Given that he had become the staple of GSL and had huge amounts of video on him that makes it even more impressive.
Another reason I picked soO over Maru was peak consistency. Just as Maru was picked over DRG because he had larger results over a consistent period of time, soO one-upped Maru and reached 4 consecutive GSL Finals. Arguably the single hardest feat anyone has ever done.
#11 | MarineKing, Locked in Stasis
Achievements: Tier 1: GSL Open Season 2 2010 - 2nd GSL 2011 January - 2nd GSL World Championship - 2nd GSL Super Tournament - Top 4 WCG Korea 2011- 2nd WCG Korea 2012 - 2nd Hot6ix Cup 2014 - 2nd
Tier 2: MLG Winter Arena 2012 - 1st MLG Winter Championship 2012 - 1st MLG Spring Championship 2012 - 3rd Iron Squid 2 - Top 4
MK vs Parting - MLG Winter Championship 2012 Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3
In many ways, MarineKing’s career is reflective of his GSL Season 2 run back in 2010. During that run, which kicked off a multitude of second-place finishes, there were two critical series that came to define MarineKing’s career and how it would play out until the present day. The first was his series against Kyrix, where the two of them fought the first truly great series of SC2’s history. Kyrix unleashed his patented mass ling/bling aggression against MarineKing’s even more aggressive marine control. The Prime Terran launched one of the most important tactical revolutions in terran history by showcasing a basic concept: the marine split. Although it had been a theoretical maneuver carried out infrequently during the fledgling days of WoL, MarineKing pulled it off time and time again against an opponent whose style seemed unmatchable. It was beautiful play that excited the crowd and captured their imagination. More importantly, he demonstrated how essential the marine split was to controlling the pace of TvZ.
The other series was his finals against Nestea. In it, you saw 2 of his 3 major weaknesses that he has never quite overcome. The first is his stubbornness in both strategy and general approach to matches. In all 7 games Marineking went for the exact same build, a proxy 2 rax to set up a bunker rush. The second was revealed in the final game. The game was on close positions Metalopolis. To get an idea of how short that distance was, from ramp to ramp it was shorter than Steppes of War. Many main bases in today’s map pool cover more distance. And even still MarineKing proxied his 2 rax below his ramp. He did great early damage with his initial attack and if he had possessed the necessary composure, he would have realized Nestea was in a terrible position. If the zerg did not drone he would certainly lose the game later and if he did drone, he would certainly die under a second assault.
For MarineKing, the choice was obvious. His opponent was hobbled and he had to slit his throat as soon as humanly possible. For Nestea, he saw to the very core of who MarineKing was and made the correct prediction of MarineKing all-ining and massed lings to stop the attack, counter and win that game. And in many ways MarineKing has relived that moment again and again and again as he has been too stubborn, too muleheaded to change. Yet in those failures, in those close matchups, it made his few victories all the more meaningful.
Play style:
Back in 2012, Polt claimed that MarineKing was the best player in the world in terms of mechanics. It's doubtful whether this was the case but the anecdote showed how highly regarded MarineKing was at that point as both foe and friend. However, such talent was arguably wasted on him. Perhaps he was too enamored with his technical prowess or it encouraged intellectual laziness on his part, because in other aspects of the game he was dumb. I mentioned his three weaknesses before. The first was his stubbornness, the second was his composure, and the third was his unwillingness to change.
Look at MarineKing’s victories holistically. Every time he has gone far, every time he has made a deep run, it was characterized by two things. First was his great mechanics and incredibly control. Second it was his incredible greedy and exploitative openings. In metas where terran was strong, the meta covered MarineKing’s weaknesses so that it could not be punished. But once the queen change was instituted, zergs everywhere (starting with Symbol) started roach bane busting him every game.
In many ways his return to Korea after his MLG victory was telling. Up to that point MarineKing had only really been using two opening builds: CC first and 11/11. In their series, Symbol realized MarineKing never scouted so he went for a 7 roach 1 base build that killed both builds to eliminate MarineKing.
Perhaps that was why Mvp was such a terrible matchup for MarineKing. Against a player with similar mechanics, against a player of such pure intelligence, against a player that could see MarineKing for all that he was, maybe that was why MarineKing could never beat Mvp. In many ways it was saddening. MarineKing easily had the best control of anyone in WoL. Even now his control is still in the upper echelon if he can get there. But all of that talent and mechanics sometimes feels wasted because MarineKing was too stubborn or too recalcitrant to change.
Difference between MarineKing and soO:
Path The battle of the Kongs is another very close difference in ranking. If you look at their peaks, soO spent 1 year as the best zerg for all of 2014. MarineKing spent 1.5 years as the second or third best terran in 2011 through early 2012 and peaked at his double MLG victories. While many point to that as a possible time in which he was “the best terran” he was never able to make it happen back in Korea during the same time frame. The rest of MKP’s 2012 was decent as he made a few Ro8s and got second in WCG Korea. In comparison soO’s 2013 was of a similar level, though slightly worse results over a longer period of time. While MarineKing has his second at Hot6ix in 2014, soO also has his other second in GSL in 2013. In terms of highest consistent peak MarineKing is slightly ahead as he had 1.5 years to soO’s 1 year, but MarineKing’s era was favorable to terran whereas soO’s was slightly worse for zerg. In terms of consistency it’s a wash.
The next part is to look at the paths of their major tournaments:
Paths
MarineKing
Tier 1: WCG 2011: Oz, sC, GuMiho, Happy, loss to Mvp WCG 2012: Parting, loss to YongHwa GSL Open 2: Fruitdealer, Kyrix, Rainbow, lost to Nestea GSL Jan 2011: Jinro (bo1), Rainbow (bo1), NaDa, Jinro, loss to Mvp GSL WC: MC, loss to Mvp GSL ST: Loss to MMA Hot6ix: Stats, herO, PartinG, Zest, loss to sOs
Tier 2: MLG Winter Arena: Losira, Naniwa, viOLet, PartinG, HuK, DRG MLG Winter Championship: Ganzi, MC, PartinG, DRG MLG Spring Championship: Symbol, Stephano, loss to DRG, loss to Alicia Iron Squid 2: Taeja, HerO, MC, loss to Life
soO
Tier 1: GSL Season 3 2013: YongHwa, loss to Super, Bomber, loss to Jjakji, Super, INnoVation, PartinG, Soulkey, loss to Dear. GSL Season 1 2014: sOs, Trap, Bbyong, PartinG, Life, loss to Zest GSL Global Championship: Oz, loss to San, Maru, loss to Zest GSL Season 2 2014: loss to TRUE, Trap, herO, loss to Classic, PartinG, Solar, TRUE, loss to Classic GSL Season 3 2014: DRG, DRG again, Flash, Stats, Zest, loss to INnoVation
Tier 2: DH Stockholm: Leenock, Classic, ForGG, loss to Solar
First look at MarineKing’s WCG Korea’s in 2011 and 2012. In 2011 he beat Oz, sC, Gumiho and Happy before losing to Mvp. In 2012 the only noteworthy player (noteworthy in my case being a player in the top 5/10 of his race, top 5 of the matchup of that time or running a strong hot streak during said tournament) he beat was PartinG before losing to YongHwa. Oz was a top 3 protoss, sC was close to top 5 terran, Happy’s TvT was top 5, and PartinG in 2012 was top 3 protoss (or the best protoss depending on how you look at it). This was about equivalent to soO’s’ GSL Season 3 2013 run. He beat Yonghwa, Bomber, Super, INnoVation, PartinG and Soulkey. YongHwa was mediocre, Bomber was around the top 5 for terran, Super was a middling protoss, INnoVation was either 1st or 2nd best terran, PartinG top 5 protoss, Soulkey best zerg.
For MarineKing that’s: Top 3 P, top 5 T, Top 5 TvT,Top 3 P. For soO it’s: Top 5 T, Top 2 T, Top 5 P, Top 1 Z.
So in my mind MarineKing’s two WCG runs are worth about as much as soO’s 1 GSL run. Perhaps you could favor soO here because he defeated Soulkey and INnoVation and the only player close to that was MarineKing’s defeat of PartinG in 2012.
Next I rated MarineKing’s GSL Open 2 and his GSL January run as close to soO’s GSL Season 1 2014 run. MKP’s run for both: Fruitdealer, Kyrix, Rainbow, Jinro, Rainbow, NaDa, Jinro. In comparison for soO it was sOs, Trap, Bbyong, PartinG, Life.
MarineKing beat: Top 2 Z, Top 3 ZvT, and 3 of the top 5 terrans at that time in Jinro, Rainbow and NaDa. soO beat: Top 5 P, Top 10 P, top 5 T (though this was terran at its weakest point and only defeating Maru, Polt and Taeja should be considered a real achievement), Top 5 P, Top 5 Z.
In terms of relative strength, Marineking was close to facing the best of his field, while soO beat a lot of top tier opponents, 3 of them went on into slumps (sOs, PartinG and Life). What makes it even in my mind is the much better format of GSL during soO’s time. He beat them when there was more preparation and in bo3 series.
Next was MarineKing’s Super Tournament and GSL WC run. Both were surprisingly easy runs and the only real challenge he faced was MC despite finishing far in both. This is about equivalent to soO’s run in GSL Global Championship as he beat only Oz (a middle tier protoss at best) and Maru. Both just beat one elite player. Even if it was two tournaments for MarineKing, in the end the WC was just a 16 man tournament and MarineKing got the lucky draw of getting two of the weaker foreigners (Sen and TT1) before having to hit MC which was why I think his run in that wasn’t very impressive.
The next part to look at is MKP’s Hot6ix where he beat only protoss players, but all 5 were either Top 5 or close to it. Stats, Zest, Parting, herO. That was close to soO’s Season 2 run where soO beat Trap, herO, PartinG, Solar, and TRUE. While MarineKing’s list is more impressive it was during a meta that was fairly terran favored as protoss had yet to adjust to the WM patch. In addition MarineKing was never tested in TvT or TvZ. And finally the GSL fomat with more players and more preparation was what made them equal.
So this leads to the crux of the argument. Does soO’s last GSL run and his DH run outweight the triple MLG and the Iron Squid runs of MarineKing? In the end I didn’t think so. While those four tournaments were arguably weaker, they all had fairly strong competition in all of them and soO’s run at DH was fairly weak in comparison. This was what gave MarineKing the edge and put him a spot above soO. That and MarineKing actually won two of them.
The top 10 is probably going to be something containing: Mvp, Life, MC, MMA, TaeJa, PartinG, Polt, INnoVation, maybe Zest (if his prime is long enough for the writers to feel he's an acceptable candidate), maybe NesTea (probably NesTea?). Not sure on the order.
On April 12 2015 03:49 Elentos wrote: The top 10 is probably going to be something containing: Mvp, Life, MC, MMA, TaeJa, PartinG, Polt, INnoVation, maybe Zest (if his prime is long enough for the writers to feel he's an acceptable candidate), maybe NesTea.
To clarify, this ranking is all stuchiu. That isn't necessary saying the majority of writers disagree with his assessment -- he was very thorough -- but only stuchiu wrote this.
On April 12 2015 03:49 Elentos wrote: The top 10 is probably going to be something containing: Mvp, Life, MC, MMA, TaeJa, PartinG, Polt, INnoVation, maybe Zest (if his prime is long enough for the writers to feel he's an acceptable candidate), maybe NesTea.
To clarify, this ranking is all stuchiu. That isn't necessary saying the majority of writers disagree with his assessment -- he was very thorough -- but only stuchiu wrote this.
On April 12 2015 03:49 Elentos wrote: The top 10 is probably going to be something containing: Mvp, Life, MC, MMA, TaeJa, PartinG, Polt, INnoVation, maybe Zest (if his prime is long enough for the writers to feel he's an acceptable candidate), maybe NesTea.
To clarify, this ranking is all stuchiu. That isn't necessary saying the majority of writers disagree with his assessment -- he was very thorough -- but only stuchiu wrote this.
On April 12 2015 03:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Nice. I'm surprised that it took so long for this article to be written.
It was mostly written (we had a project called Kings of Wings going to be released around HotS release) but we got stuck with other projects. stu eventually took it upon himself to write it himself.
Polt is in the Top 5 since he has continuously won consistently. I think Nestea hits #6. Be interesting mindset... Life will ultimately (imo, if he plays 3-4 more years at this level) end up #1. But as of now, MVP, Taeja, Life, MC, Polt top 5.
10. Rain (high consistent player, joined late) 9. Innovation (high consistent player with high burst quality, joined late) 8. MMA (championship material, winner of GSL, easily came back in Korea after WCS EU) 7. Taeja (so many championships...) 6. $O$ (100,000 dollar man) 5. Polt (best USA USA for sure) 4. NesTea (fallen off the radar, but in his prime the best player on the planet NesTea) 3. Life (you can win Blizzcon, GSLs and other things but you lack the power to win everything you enter at all times that the #1 and #2 have, high risk for a slump) 2. MC (every tournament he enters, he's a (slight) favourite) 1. Mvp (we still talk about if someone has the skill like IM_Mvp to win, that says enough).
On April 12 2015 04:05 catabowl wrote: Polt is in the Top 5 since he has continuously won consistently. I think Nestea hits #6. Be interesting mindset... Life will ultimately (imo, if he plays 3-4 more years at this level) end up #1. But as of now, MVP, Taeja, Life, MC, Polt top 5.
I'm personally offended that you think Life needs 3-4 more years at his current, GSL-winning level to be #1 D:
On April 12 2015 04:05 OtherWorld wrote: Hmm remaining players are probably Mvp, Life, NesTea, MMA, Polt, Zest, TaeJa, Stephano, MC, ActionJesus sOs. In order : #1 Mvp #2 Life #3 TaeJa #4 NesTea #5 MMA #6 Polt #7 sOs #8 Zest #9 MC #10 Stephano
I'm not going to lie, if the list looks like this and INnoVation doesn't get on there despite being more successful than Maru and MK, and at his best better than most of the players you listed, I'd be a bit disappointed.
On April 12 2015 03:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Nice. I'm surprised that it took so long for this article to be written.
It was mostly written (we had a project called Kings of Wings going to be released around HotS release) but we got stuck with other projects. stu eventually took it upon himself to write it himself.
On April 12 2015 03:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Nice. I'm surprised that it took so long for this article to be written.
It was mostly written (we had a project called Kings of Wings going to be released around HotS release) but we got stuck with other projects. stu eventually took it upon himself to write it himself.
So SC2 died a while ago? I like top player articles as much as others but its a pretty misleading title no?
On April 12 2015 04:16 sharkie wrote: Did I miss SC2's end or why are we suddenly talking GOATs? o.O
On April 12 2015 03:59 Zealously wrote:
On April 12 2015 03:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Nice. I'm surprised that it took so long for this article to be written.
It was mostly written (we had a project called Kings of Wings going to be released around HotS release) but we got stuck with other projects. stu eventually took it upon himself to write it himself.
So SC2 died a while ago? I like top player articles as much as others but its a pretty misleading title no?
Top 5 should include Mvp, Life, Nestea, MC imo. I love these nostalgic trips down memory lane I think these lists also do a particularly great job of angering people though ^^
On April 12 2015 04:18 Noonius wrote: Maru, 13th. How fitting. I'm interested to see where TaeJa and Polt (the real terrans) are gonna be placed. One of them must be in top 3 for sure
Still contending with all time greats like MC and NesTea over the 3rd spot. And TaeJa is kinda missing the big wins in Korean tournaments.
On April 12 2015 04:16 sharkie wrote: Did I miss SC2's end or why are we suddenly talking GOATs? o.O
On April 12 2015 03:59 Zealously wrote:
On April 12 2015 03:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Nice. I'm surprised that it took so long for this article to be written.
It was mostly written (we had a project called Kings of Wings going to be released around HotS release) but we got stuck with other projects. stu eventually took it upon himself to write it himself.
So SC2 died a while ago? I like top player articles as much as others but its a pretty misleading title no?
I disagree. It doesn't imply that these are the greatest players that will ever be (Mvp is commonly referred to as the GOAT), only that these are the greatest players to have touched the game thus far. GOAT rankings aren't and shouldn't be exclusive to games no longer being played professionally, I think.
On April 12 2015 04:18 Noonius wrote: Maru, 13th. How fitting. I'm interested to see where TaeJa and Polt (the real terrans) are gonna be placed. One of them must be in top 3 for sure
the real terrans with 1 GSL won between the 2. Let's speak about MMA and Mvp please.
On April 12 2015 04:05 OtherWorld wrote: Hmm remaining players are probably Mvp, Life, NesTea, MMA, Polt, Zest, TaeJa, Stephano, MC, ActionJesus sOs. In order : #1 Mvp #2 Life #3 TaeJa #4 NesTea #5 MMA #6 Polt #7 sOs #8 Zest #9 MC #10 Stephano
I'm not going to lie, if the list looks like this and INnoVation doesn't get on there despite being more successful than Maru and MK, and at his best better than most of the players you listed, I'd be a bit disappointed.
I first put him on the list, but on second ththought, looking at the intro : -did he play in a time with increased talent pool? Yes, like Maru. -did he dictate the meta and refine strategies? Yes, but nothing too groundbreaking. -did he stay consistent as opposed to peak/clutch? No, like Maru. -did his success happen when his race was weak? Hell no, as opposed to Maru. -how does his success rate in terms of prestige? Well a GSL win and a second place isn't too bad, sure, but that's all he's got since PL is apparently not taken into account. Meanwhile Maru has an OSL, several good performances in GSL when Terrans were weak, and a NSSL. INnoVation also did worse than Maru at BlizzCon 2013. So yeah to me INno making the top10 while Maru doesn't would feel strange. If anything the lack of PartinG on my list is more shocking d:
On April 12 2015 04:20 Inflicted wrote: 1/2. Life/Mvp 3. TaeJa 4. sOs 5. MC 6. Zest 7. herO 8. INnoVation 9. PartinG 10. Stephano
No MMA? Really? That's a pretty bold statement, imo, especially what he did in his prime on SlayerS AND what he's done thus far on Team Acer. No one expected a Ro4 finish for the first GSL he had been back in over 2 years.
10. Zest 9. PartinG 8. Polt 7. Innovation 6. MC 5. MMA 4. Taeja 3. Nestea 2. Life 1. Mvp
I don't think Life can dispute Mvp's stance as #1, yet. Unless Life goes on to win a few more GSL's in dominant fashion.
I'm sooo excited that TL is doing a series on this! I feel like i've been waiting forever for some sort of list/write up on the greatest SC2 players ever
On April 12 2015 04:20 Inflicted wrote: 1/2. Life/Mvp 3. TaeJa 4. sOs 5. MC 6. Zest 7. herO 8. INnoVation 9. PartinG 10. Stephano
No MMA? Really? That's a pretty bold statement, imo, especially what he did in his prime on SlayerS AND what he's done thus far on Team Acer. No one expected a Ro4 finish for the first GSL he had been back in over 2 years.
10. Zest 9. PartinG 8. Polt 7. Innovation 6. MC 5. MMA 4. Taeja 3. Nestea 2. Life 1. Mvp
I don't think Life can dispute Mvp's stance as #1, yet. Unless Life goes on to win 2 more GSL's.
Yeah, replaced PartinG with MMA. iunno they both belong there but I bet Stephano will be on top 10 too
On April 12 2015 04:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Top 5 should include Mvp, Life, Nestea, MC imo. I love these nostalgic trips down memory lane I think these lists also do a particularly great job of angering people though ^^
On April 12 2015 04:20 Inflicted wrote: 1/2. Life/Mvp 3. TaeJa 4. sOs 5. MC 6. Zest 7. herO 8. INnoVation 9. PartinG 10. Stephano
No MMA? Really? That's a pretty bold statement, imo, especially what he did in his prime on SlayerS AND what he's done thus far on Team Acer. No one expected a Ro4 finish for the first GSL he had been back in over 2 years.
10. Zest 9. PartinG 8. Polt 7. Innovation 6. MC 5. MMA 4. Taeja 3. Nestea 2. Life 1. Mvp
I don't think Life can dispute Mvp's stance as #1, yet. Unless Life goes on to win a few more GSL's in dominant fashion.
If all we do is judge people by # of gsl titels then an article like this isn't really needed. We'd just go on liquipedia.
My problem with this list is probably that it will include people like MK and Nestea who are long past their primes and got their achievements in comparatively easy environments.. Also soO already so low...
well, fantastic article, even tho some parts are a bit to short for my liking (e.g. ingame impact of the players/innovation. i realize that this doesnt really belong to a ranking article, but a more in depth discussion of this would be nice imo. would also make a point to rank sOs above leenock, which is the only ranking i disagree with.)
anyone has more information on the DRG representing Pusan thing?
On April 12 2015 04:28 sharkie wrote: I guess you guys are true about the GOAT reasons.
My problem with this list is probably that it will include people like MK and Nestea who are long past their primes and got their achievements in comparatively easy environments.. Also soO already so low...
What makes you say it was easy? Just because the builds werent perfect by todays standards doesnt mean their achiveements weigh in less. What people in "modern" sc2 take for granted is what these people innovated and perfected. Todays elite stand on the shoulders of the groundwork made by players like MVP, Nestea and MC.
Marineking is a joke.Not only is he one of the most overrated players of all time but also has the most annoying fanbase which are only rivaled by bronies in terms off who you would want to put into a gas chamber first. This choke artist has failed to show up at every big final he played and would have never won jack shit if parting didnt have random brain farts in that MLG series. The only thing that sets apart MKP from bitbybit is the type of cheese they like to do,one or two noteworthy games MKP has and his fake tears after every loss that are more annoying than the uuuu's and aaaa's his blind and clueless fanbase utters every time he splitted his stimmed bio against no-speed off creep banelings. That fact that you put him ahead of players like DRG,leenock and soo just blows my mind and shows me yet again why this site has gone down the shitter.
On April 12 2015 04:33 Rubsy wrote: Marineking is a joke.Not only is he one of the most overrated players of all time but also has the most annoying fanbase which are only rivaled by bronies in terms off who you would want to put into a gas chamber first. This choke artist has failed to show up at every big final he played and would have never won jack shit if parting didnt have random brain farts in that MLG series. The only thing that sets apart MKP from bitbybit is the type of cheese they like to do,one or two noteworthy games MKP has and his fake tears after every loss that are more annoying than the uuuu's and aaaa's his blind and clueless fanbase utters every time he splitted his stimmed bio against no-speed off creep banelings. That fact that you put him ahead of players like DRG,leenock and soo just blows my mind and shows me yet again why this site has gone down the shitter.
On April 12 2015 04:33 Rubsy wrote: Marineking is a joke.Not only is he one of the most overrated players of all time but also has the most annoying fanbase which are only rivaled by bronies in terms off who you would want to put into a gas chamber first. This choke artist has failed to show up at every big final he played and would have never won jack shit if parting didnt have random brain farts in that MLG series. The only thing that sets apart MKP from bitbybit is the type of cheese they like to do,one or two noteworthy games MKP has and his fake tears after every loss that are more annoying than the uuuu's and aaaa's his blind and clueless fanbase utters every time he splitted his stimmed bio against no-speed off creep banelings. That fact that you put him ahead of players like DRG,leenock and soo just blows my mind and shows me yet again why this site has gone down the shitter.
Really hope we will see Mvp at number 1, but I think TL writers have such a hardon for Life it might be unlikely. Have to admit it's very close between those two, but I think Mvp changed the game so much he deserves it.
On April 12 2015 04:42 LemonyTang wrote: Really hope we will see Mvp at number 1, but I think TL writers have such a hardon for Life it might be unlikely. Have to admit it's very close between those two, but I think Mvp changed the game so much he deserves it.
You do realise that SC2 writers are people, and not an amorphous single entity, right?
On April 12 2015 04:20 Inflicted wrote: 1/2. Life/Mvp 3. TaeJa 4. sOs 5. MC 6. Zest 7. herO 8. INnoVation 9. PartinG 10. Stephano
No MMA? Really? That's a pretty bold statement, imo, especially what he did in his prime on SlayerS AND what he's done thus far on Team Acer. No one expected a Ro4 finish for the first GSL he had been back in over 2 years.
10. Zest 9. PartinG 8. Polt 7. Innovation 6. MC 5. MMA 4. Taeja 3. Nestea 2. Life 1. Mvp
I don't think Life can dispute Mvp's stance as #1, yet. Unless Life goes on to win 2 more GSL's.
Yeah, replaced PartinG with MMA. iunno they both belong there but I bet Stephano will be on top 10 too
take away the foreign bias and just look at straight achievements. Stephano has 4 Premieres: all in the span of 1 year and all foreign LANs. Add in another 8-9 top 4 (again at foreign LANs). Contribution to game: mass infestor + BL. Parting has 4 Premiers: over 2 years all foreign LAN's, but has 4 2nd place finishes in Korean Premieres. (also one of those foreign LANs is the 2012 World Championship...) Plus another 6-7 top 4. Contribution to game: Soul train. Unless foreign bias is going to be present, I really dont see how stephano can ever be considered above Parting.
edit: wasnt really targeting your post specifically, was just getting tired of seeing lists that had stephano and not Parting.
On April 12 2015 04:20 Inflicted wrote: 1/2. Life/Mvp 3. TaeJa 4. sOs 5. MC 6. Zest 7. herO 8. INnoVation 9. PartinG 10. Stephano
No MMA? Really? That's a pretty bold statement, imo, especially what he did in his prime on SlayerS AND what he's done thus far on Team Acer. No one expected a Ro4 finish for the first GSL he had been back in over 2 years.
10. Zest 9. PartinG 8. Polt 7. Innovation 6. MC 5. MMA 4. Taeja 3. Nestea 2. Life 1. Mvp
I don't think Life can dispute Mvp's stance as #1, yet. Unless Life goes on to win 2 more GSL's.
Yeah, replaced PartinG with MMA. iunno they both belong there but I bet Stephano will be on top 10 too
take away the foreign bias and just look at straight achievements. Stephano has 4 Premieres: all in the span of 1 year and all foreign LANs. Add in another 8-9 top 4 (again at foreign LANs). Contribution to game: mass infestor + BL. Parting has 4 Premiers: over 2 years all foreign LAN's, but has 4 2nd place finishes in Korean Premieres. (also one of those foreign LANs is the 2012 World Championship...) Plus another 6-7 top 4. Contribution to game: Soul train. Unless foreign bias is going to be present, I really dont see how stephano can ever be considered above Parting.
Stephano can be credited for changing the metagame three times. And actually mass BL + infestor is huge, since it has proven to be quite imba. The discovery of such a strat is an enormous feat any progamer should be proud of.
On April 12 2015 04:20 Inflicted wrote: 1/2. Life/Mvp 3. TaeJa 4. sOs 5. MC 6. Zest 7. herO 8. INnoVation 9. PartinG 10. Stephano
No MMA? Really? That's a pretty bold statement, imo, especially what he did in his prime on SlayerS AND what he's done thus far on Team Acer. No one expected a Ro4 finish for the first GSL he had been back in over 2 years.
10. Zest 9. PartinG 8. Polt 7. Innovation 6. MC 5. MMA 4. Taeja 3. Nestea 2. Life 1. Mvp
I don't think Life can dispute Mvp's stance as #1, yet. Unless Life goes on to win 2 more GSL's.
Yeah, replaced PartinG with MMA. iunno they both belong there but I bet Stephano will be on top 10 too
take away the foreign bias and just look at straight achievements. Stephano has 4 Premieres: all in the span of 1 year and all foreign LANs. Add in another 8-9 top 4 (again at foreign LANs). Contribution to game: mass infestor + BL. Parting has 4 Premiers: over 2 years all foreign LAN's, but has 4 2nd place finishes in Korean Premieres. (also one of those foreign LANs is the 2012 World Championship...) Plus another 6-7 top 4. Contribution to game: Soul train. Unless foreign bias is going to be present, I really dont see how stephano can ever be considered above Parting.
Stephano can be credited for changing the metagame three times.
PartinG can be credited for achieving the NesTea award through some of the stiffest competition possible and winning fights he shouldn't win through micro alone. And so on and so forth.~~
On April 12 2015 04:20 Inflicted wrote: 1/2. Life/Mvp 3. TaeJa 4. sOs 5. MC 6. Zest 7. herO 8. INnoVation 9. PartinG 10. Stephano
No MMA? Really? That's a pretty bold statement, imo, especially what he did in his prime on SlayerS AND what he's done thus far on Team Acer. No one expected a Ro4 finish for the first GSL he had been back in over 2 years.
10. Zest 9. PartinG 8. Polt 7. Innovation 6. MC 5. MMA 4. Taeja 3. Nestea 2. Life 1. Mvp
I don't think Life can dispute Mvp's stance as #1, yet. Unless Life goes on to win 2 more GSL's.
Yeah, replaced PartinG with MMA. iunno they both belong there but I bet Stephano will be on top 10 too
take away the foreign bias and just look at straight achievements. Stephano has 4 Premieres: all in the span of 1 year and all foreign LANs. Add in another 8-9 top 4 (again at foreign LANs). Contribution to game: mass infestor + BL. Parting has 4 Premiers: over 2 years all foreign LAN's, but has 4 2nd place finishes in Korean Premieres. (also one of those foreign LANs is the 2012 World Championship...) Plus another 6-7 top 4. Contribution to game: Soul train. Unless foreign bias is going to be present, I really dont see how stephano can ever be considered above Parting.
Stephano can be credited for changing the metagame three times.
PartinG can be credited for achieving the NesTea award through some of the stiffest competition possible and winning fights he shouldn't win through micro alone. And so on and so forth.~~
Yeah I agree, PartinG's definitely a contender too. Your post and mine aren't exclusive d:
On April 12 2015 04:20 Inflicted wrote: 1/2. Life/Mvp 3. TaeJa 4. sOs 5. MC 6. Zest 7. herO 8. INnoVation 9. PartinG 10. Stephano
No MMA? Really? That's a pretty bold statement, imo, especially what he did in his prime on SlayerS AND what he's done thus far on Team Acer. No one expected a Ro4 finish for the first GSL he had been back in over 2 years.
10. Zest 9. PartinG 8. Polt 7. Innovation 6. MC 5. MMA 4. Taeja 3. Nestea 2. Life 1. Mvp
I don't think Life can dispute Mvp's stance as #1, yet. Unless Life goes on to win 2 more GSL's.
Yeah, replaced PartinG with MMA. iunno they both belong there but I bet Stephano will be on top 10 too
take away the foreign bias and just look at straight achievements. Stephano has 4 Premieres: all in the span of 1 year and all foreign LANs. Add in another 8-9 top 4 (again at foreign LANs). Contribution to game: mass infestor + BL. Parting has 4 Premiers: over 2 years all foreign LAN's, but has 4 2nd place finishes in Korean Premieres. (also one of those foreign LANs is the 2012 World Championship...) Plus another 6-7 top 4. Contribution to game: Soul train. Unless foreign bias is going to be present, I really dont see how stephano can ever be considered above Parting.
Stephano can be credited for changing the metagame three times.
PartinG can be credited for achieving the NesTea award through some of the stiffest competition possible and winning fights he shouldn't win through micro alone. And so on and so forth.~~
Yeah I agree, PartinG's definitely a contender too. Your post and mine aren't exclusive d:
10. Polt 9. MMA 8.Parting 7. Zest 6. Innovation 5. Nestea. 4. Taeja 3. Life 2. MC 1. Mvp
that would be my top 10 i think. Polt is probably the smartest player on the planet, only Mvp is on par with him. MMA had multiple super high peaks and has now his second era as a top 10 terran. partingis a monster who jsut produces results everywhere and always was strong in all match ups. zest, while being fairly shortlived, still has had some really impressive runs and consistently is now the number 1 or 2 protoss for 1+ years. Innovation had only few tournament wins, but dominated the terran scene for a year and is now back in form. Nestea, while having won many tournaments, won all of them against fairly easy competition and faded into obscurity much earlier than for example Mvp and especially MC.
Taeja is, from pure instinct and talent aspects, the greatest terran to ever play, and the second greatest palyr overall. but he lacks the korean results, and it looks like he lost interest in conquering korea. that said, he won many more GSL-level tournaments and many more second tier tournaments than any other player previously mentioned on the list.
Life is the greatest player from a pure talent viewpoint. he is very similiar to taeja in mayn aspects, but what puts him above taeja is that he actually made it in korea whereas taeja failed to win korean tournaments. also life had the better head to head. thoguh you could argue that life was less consistent, outside of his slump in 2013 he was fairly close to top level paly at all times.
MC is now a top 10 protossat least for 5 consecutive years, has won a gajillion tournaments and accumulated riches beyond ones comprehension. he also always seems to be able to dance with the best of the best while in their respective primes. MC is strong in many protoss playstyles, thoguh obviously he is the god of protossbullshit and very much the inventor of the term. all that puts him on number 2, even though life and taeja are arguably better than he is.
and MVP is the obvious number 1. the king of wings, who won tournaments both through mechanical prowess and sheer mentality and genius alone. at all times through wings of liberty he palyed versus the best and more often than not beat them. even when all odds were stacked against him he still persevered and won champiuonships. the amount of korea based achievements he ahs is unprecedented, and it is fairly unliely that anyone will ever get as much done as he has. maybe Life, but else ypou have noone close to contending him. add to that his sizeable amount of international success and the fact that even in HOTS he still beat many great palyers for half a year+ and almost beat innovation when he peaked (aka probably the best palyer of all time at his peak) and you have a legendary entity, a behemoth of starcraft, the king of wings, the jurgen, the god, the bonjwa.
On April 12 2015 04:20 Inflicted wrote: 1/2. Life/Mvp 3. TaeJa 4. sOs 5. MC 6. Zest 7. herO 8. INnoVation 9. PartinG 10. Stephano
No MMA? Really? That's a pretty bold statement, imo, especially what he did in his prime on SlayerS AND what he's done thus far on Team Acer. No one expected a Ro4 finish for the first GSL he had been back in over 2 years.
10. Zest 9. PartinG 8. Polt 7. Innovation 6. MC 5. MMA 4. Taeja 3. Nestea 2. Life 1. Mvp
I don't think Life can dispute Mvp's stance as #1, yet. Unless Life goes on to win 2 more GSL's.
Yeah, replaced PartinG with MMA. iunno they both belong there but I bet Stephano will be on top 10 too
take away the foreign bias and just look at straight achievements. Stephano has 4 Premieres: all in the span of 1 year and all foreign LANs. Add in another 8-9 top 4 (again at foreign LANs). Contribution to game: mass infestor + BL. Parting has 4 Premiers: over 2 years all foreign LAN's, but has 4 2nd place finishes in Korean Premieres. (also one of those foreign LANs is the 2012 World Championship...) Plus another 6-7 top 4. Contribution to game: Soul train. Unless foreign bias is going to be present, I really dont see how stephano can ever be considered above Parting.
Stephano can be credited for changing the metagame three times. And actually mass BL + infestor is huge, since it has proven to be quite imba. The discovery of such a strat is an enormous feat any progamer should be proud of.
quite true, stephano contribution to meta is massive, my issue is more that (outside his fan legion) he wasnt ever really considered close to "best in the world atm". Maybe its a misconception on my part, but looking at the basis written in the intro, this alone is a big negative. Add in zero results in korea and a relatively short peak time and I dont see a resume based on the criteria listed that would put him above parting.
On April 12 2015 03:49 Baadbeat wrote: Nice remembering the golden era of curious and the start of Maru, even though I have a bias and would have put Maru in top 7!
On April 12 2015 04:55 Apoteosis wrote: No FruitDealer ?
Come on !!!
fruitdealer won 1 tournament, and did nothing else. yes, it was the first big tournament win ever, but still he did nothing impressive afterwards.
The very first GSL was impressive in his own right. And if you don't (or can't) remember, Zergs were underperforming back in the day. FD play at the very first GSL marked the concept of how Zerg should macro, even to this day. Expand, drone, expand, attack. Every Zerg play by that norm when they play macro.
i love how many people put sos in their top 10 when the article already established that sos is behind leenock on rank 16 by the smallest margin. soulkey is prolly rank 17. that or i overestimated one of my guys in the top 10.
Why people keep mentioning sOs, if it's clear from Leenok's article, that he is not in the list?
Well, that's what I came up with: 10. Polt 9. Rain 8. Innovation 7. Nestea 6. Zest 5. MMA 4. MC 3. TaeJa 2. Mvp 1. Life
Decided Life/Mvp question with a coinflip =D
TL staff should make top15 best foreigners as well, I believe it'll cause even more drama.
After another coinflip decided to switch MMA and Nestea, cause their positions were the only ones(besides Life/Mvp) that I couldn't easily come up with.
On April 12 2015 04:55 Apoteosis wrote: No FruitDealer ?
Come on !!!
fruitdealer won 1 tournament, and did nothing else. yes, it was the first big tournament win ever, but still he did nothing impressive afterwards.
The very first GSL was impressive in his own right. And if you don't (or can't) remember, Zergs were underperforming back in the day. FD play at the very first GSL marked the concept of how Zerg should macro, even to this day. Expand, drone, expand, attack. Every Zerg play by that norm when they play macro.
and again, he won 1 tournament, then did jackshit after that. he never had another deep run. by that logic we shpould put seed in there, who won GSL after no protoss had won it for years. also the seocnd winner was nestea, another zerg. i dunno, but purely based on tournament wins we might have overestimated imbalances. the next 2 winners of the tournament were terran and protoss. terran dominance only started after the infancy phase of sc2.
Nestea deserves top 5 for sure. 3 GSL wins (1 of which he won without dropping a game), 1 top 4. 3 top 8s. 3rd place at IPL4. 2nd place blizzcon. Nestea award etc. Even though he always lost to MVP he was one of the only players that could actually take games off him during his prime. If it wasn't for Nestea MVP would have for sure won a GSL without losing a game. Most of his achievements were while zerg was underpowered.
10 Parting RainMarineKing (I actually feel like he should be lower but he wasn't in 15-11 so...) 9 NesTea 8 Zest 7 Polt 6 MC 5 Innovation 4 MMA 3 TaeJa 2 Mvp (gasp!) 1 Life
I also feel like Rain deserves a spot, too many good players idk it's just a rough guess list edit: just saw MarineKing is #11 lol edit 2: Parting over Rain lol
10 MarineKing (I actually feel like he should be lower but he wasn't in 15-11 so...) 9 NesTea 8 Zest 7 Polt 6 MC 5 Innovation 4 MMA 3 TaeJa 2 Mvp (gasp!) 1 Life
I also feel like Rain deserves a spot, too many good players idk it's just a rough guess list
10 MarineKing (I actually feel like he should be lower but he wasn't in 15-11 so...) 9 NesTea 8 Zest 7 Polt 6 MC 5 Innovation 4 MMA 3 TaeJa 2 Mvp (gasp!) 1 Life
I also feel like Rain deserves a spot, too many good players idk it's just a rough guess list
lol
Right in the sweet spot
But you're still silly for Inno above Polt. Or maybe even MMA
On April 12 2015 05:13 Tanzklaue wrote: my favourite part was that marineking's article basically was "he sucks, he is dumb, wasted potential", then "he totes better than soo tho".
i kinda feel a discrepancy there. not that i disagree with the sentiment, but maybe he would've deserved to be palced lower.
Just because he could have achieved far more doesn't deduct from the results he had
LOL at people who have Rain on their top 10. The guy is good, but he's only won 3 tournaments. None of which were serious, long term events. (First ever OSL with half BW players who don't know how to play the game, WCS Asia Finals with literally Bo3 the entire tournament, Hot6ix Cup may have been the only notable win).
My top 10 in no particular order Mvp Life Taeja Innovation Parting sOs Polt Nestea MC Zest
On April 12 2015 05:13 Tanzklaue wrote: my favourite part was that marineking's article basically was "he sucks, he is dumb, wasted potential", then "he totes better than soo tho".
i kinda feel a discrepancy there. not that i disagree with the sentiment, but maybe he would've deserved to be palced lower.
Just because he could have achieved far more doesn't deduct from the results he had
i would stilla rgue that his achievements were way worse than what soo, maru and maybe even DRG accomplished.
On April 12 2015 05:15 Brutaxilos wrote: LOL at people who have Rain on their top 10. The guy is good, but he's only won 3 tournaments. None of which were serious, long term events. (First ever OSL with half BW players who don't know how to play the game, WCS Asia Finals with literally Bo3 the entire tournament, Hot6ix Cup may have been the only notable win).
My top 10 in no particular order Mvp Life Taeja Innovation Parting sOs Polt Nestea MC Zest
On April 12 2015 05:15 Brutaxilos wrote: LOL at people who have Rain on their top 10. The guy is good, but he's only won 3 tournaments. None of which were serious, long term events. (First ever OSL with half BW players who don't know how to play the game, WCS Asia Finals with literally Bo3 the entire tournament, Hot6ix Cup may have been the only notable win).
My top 10 in no particular order Mvp Life Taeja Innovation Parting sOs Polt Nestea MC Zest
On April 12 2015 04:55 Apoteosis wrote: No FruitDealer ?
Come on !!!
fruitdealer won 1 tournament, and did nothing else. yes, it was the first big tournament win ever, but still he did nothing impressive afterwards.
The very first GSL was impressive in his own right. And if you don't (or can't) remember, Zergs were underperforming back in the day. FD play at the very first GSL marked the concept of how Zerg should macro, even to this day. Expand, drone, expand, attack. Every Zerg play by that norm when they play macro.
and again, he won 1 tournament, then did jackshit after that. he never had another deep run. by that logic we shpould put seed in there, who won GSL after no protoss had won it for years. also the seocnd winner was nestea, another zerg. i dunno, but purely based on tournament wins we might have overestimated imbalances. the next 2 winners of the tournament were terran and protoss. terran dominance only started after the infancy phase of sc2.
It was the VERY FIRST GSL, when the meta was just pure cheese and the maps were so against Zerg that even BitByBit and Trickster made deep tournament runs. There, and the macro legacy, made FD a creditor for a space on this list.
And by the way, Nestea was the only good Zerg around that time after FD. And that's because Blizzard buffed the roach and a bunch of other adjustments that made Zerg more viable to play at high-levels.
On April 12 2015 05:15 Brutaxilos wrote: LOL at people who have Rain on their top 10. The guy is good, but he's only won 3 tournaments. None of which were serious, long term events. (First ever OSL with half BW players who don't know how to play the game, WCS Asia Finals with literally Bo3 the entire tournament, Hot6ix Cup may have been the only notable win).
My top 10 in no particular order Mvp Life Taeja Innovation Parting sOs Polt Nestea MC Zest
Rain did define the Protoss meta game like few others, particulary in PvP. So despite him not being the winningest player, he has something going for him.
On April 12 2015 05:15 Brutaxilos wrote: LOL at people who have Rain on their top 10. The guy is good, but he's only won 3 tournaments. None of which were serious, long term events. (First ever OSL with half BW players who don't know how to play the game, WCS Asia Finals with literally Bo3 the entire tournament, Hot6ix Cup may have been the only notable win).
My top 10 in no particular order Mvp Life Taeja Innovation Parting sOs Polt Nestea MC Zest
Parting MMA Polt Zest Innovation Nestea MC Taeja Life Mvp there's your top 10 in no particular order. Mine and Stuchiu's order are probably similar but not the same
On April 12 2015 04:55 Apoteosis wrote: No FruitDealer ?
Come on !!!
fruitdealer won 1 tournament, and did nothing else. yes, it was the first big tournament win ever, but still he did nothing impressive afterwards.
The very first GSL was impressive in his own right. And if you don't (or can't) remember, Zergs were underperforming back in the day. FD play at the very first GSL marked the concept of how Zerg should macro, even to this day. Expand, drone, expand, attack. Every Zerg play by that norm when they play macro.
and again, he won 1 tournament, then did jackshit after that. he never had another deep run. by that logic we shpould put seed in there, who won GSL after no protoss had won it for years. also the seocnd winner was nestea, another zerg. i dunno, but purely based on tournament wins we might have overestimated imbalances. the next 2 winners of the tournament were terran and protoss. terran dominance only started after the infancy phase of sc2.
It was the VERY FIRST GSL, when the meta was just pure cheese and the maps were so against Zerg that even BitByBit and Trickster made deep tournament runs. There, and the macro legacy, made FD a creditor for a space on this list.
And by the way, Nestea was the only good Zerg around that time after FD. And that's because Blizzard buffed the roach and a bunch of other adjustments that made Zerg more viable to play at high-levels.
there, you said it yourself. literally anyone could make deep tournament runs. even fruitdealer, a nobody of not too remarkable skill. the people of that time that actually made multiple deep runs during that time and after that time, like marinekind, mvp, nestea and mc, are featured on the list or are certain to be listed.
On April 12 2015 05:15 Brutaxilos wrote: LOL at people who have Rain on their top 10. The guy is good, but he's only won 3 tournaments. None of which were serious, long term events. (First ever OSL with half BW players who don't know how to play the game, WCS Asia Finals with literally Bo3 the entire tournament, Hot6ix Cup may have been the only notable win).
My top 10 in no particular order Mvp Life Taeja Innovation Parting sOs Polt Nestea MC Zest
Rain did define the Protoss meta game like few others, particulary in PvP. So despite him not being the winningest player, he has something going for him.
Couldn't you argue that Destiny defined the Zerg meta game in WoL with his infestor play? I'm not saying Rain is bad, he's just overrated in my opinion.
On April 12 2015 04:55 Apoteosis wrote: No FruitDealer ?
Come on !!!
fruitdealer won 1 tournament, and did nothing else. yes, it was the first big tournament win ever, but still he did nothing impressive afterwards.
The very first GSL was impressive in his own right. And if you don't (or can't) remember, Zergs were underperforming back in the day. FD play at the very first GSL marked the concept of how Zerg should macro, even to this day. Expand, drone, expand, attack. Every Zerg play by that norm when they play macro.
and again, he won 1 tournament, then did jackshit after that. he never had another deep run. by that logic we shpould put seed in there, who won GSL after no protoss had won it for years. also the seocnd winner was nestea, another zerg. i dunno, but purely based on tournament wins we might have overestimated imbalances. the next 2 winners of the tournament were terran and protoss. terran dominance only started after the infancy phase of sc2.
It was the VERY FIRST GSL, when the meta was just pure cheese and the maps were so against Zerg that even BitByBit and Trickster made deep tournament runs. There, and the macro legacy, made FD a creditor for a space on this list.
And by the way, Nestea was the only good Zerg around that time after FD. And that's because Blizzard buffed the roach and a bunch of other adjustments that made Zerg more viable to play at high-levels.
Hey! Trickster/Tester is a total boss. He was my first Protoss crush.
On April 12 2015 04:55 Apoteosis wrote: No FruitDealer ?
Come on !!!
fruitdealer won 1 tournament, and did nothing else. yes, it was the first big tournament win ever, but still he did nothing impressive afterwards.
The very first GSL was impressive in his own right. And if you don't (or can't) remember, Zergs were underperforming back in the day. FD play at the very first GSL marked the concept of how Zerg should macro, even to this day. Expand, drone, expand, attack. Every Zerg play by that norm when they play macro.
and again, he won 1 tournament, then did jackshit after that. he never had another deep run. by that logic we shpould put seed in there, who won GSL after no protoss had won it for years. also the seocnd winner was nestea, another zerg. i dunno, but purely based on tournament wins we might have overestimated imbalances. the next 2 winners of the tournament were terran and protoss. terran dominance only started after the infancy phase of sc2.
It was the VERY FIRST GSL, when the meta was just pure cheese and the maps were so against Zerg that even BitByBit and Trickster made deep tournament runs. There, and the macro legacy, made FD a creditor for a space on this list.
And by the way, Nestea was the only good Zerg around that time after FD. And that's because Blizzard buffed the roach and a bunch of other adjustments that made Zerg more viable to play at high-levels.
there, you said it yourself. literally anyone could make deep tournament runs. even fruitdealer, a nobody of not too remarkable skill. the people of that time that actually made multiple deep runs during that time and after that time, like marinekind, mvp, nestea and mc, are featured on the list or are certain to be listed.
Also looking at the criteria of how they judge tournament in paragraph 2 of the forward, the very first GSL is probably considered the very weakest , hence the least significant.
Just got around to reading the whole thing. I love the fact that you give justification for each ranking and why they're better than the last guy, it makes it feel a lot more definitive and thought out.
On April 12 2015 05:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Just got around to reading the whole thing. I love the fact that you give justification for each ranking and why they're better than the last guy, it makes it feel a lot more definitive and thought out.
Whoa there. Is giving justification for a ranking something that needs to be commended these days? That's kind of... sad, don't you think? I mean, if this was stuchiu throwing 15 names at us with no justification I'd not even consider taking this seriously <.<.
On April 12 2015 05:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Just got around to reading the whole thing. I love the fact that you give justification for each ranking and why they're better than the last guy, it makes it feel a lot more definitive and thought out.
Whoa there. Is giving justification for a ranking something that needs to be commended these days? That's kind of... sad, don't you think? I mean, if this was stuchiu throwing 15 names at us with no justification I'd not even consider taking this seriously <.<.
he's talking about the part where it directly compares each player to the player below them, most every ranking has the general explanation but not the direct comparison
On April 12 2015 05:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Just got around to reading the whole thing. I love the fact that you give justification for each ranking and why they're better than the last guy, it makes it feel a lot more definitive and thought out.
Whoa there. Is giving justification for a ranking something that needs to be commended these days? That's kind of... sad, don't you think? I mean, if this was stuchiu throwing 15 names at us with no justification I'd not even consider taking this seriously <.<.
I mean the specific stuff about runs at the end of each write-up specifically. Obviously there's gonna be justification on any ranking but I like how he specifically went into why number X is better than X+1.
On April 12 2015 05:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Just got around to reading the whole thing. I love the fact that you give justification for each ranking and why they're better than the last guy, it makes it feel a lot more definitive and thought out.
Whoa there. Is giving justification for a ranking something that needs to be commended these days? That's kind of... sad, don't you think? I mean, if this was stuchiu throwing 15 names at us with no justification I'd not even consider taking this seriously <.<.
he's talking about the part where it directly compares each player to the player below them, most every ranking has the general explanation but not the direct comparison
So then something is wrong with this world. Damn it humanity, you have failed us.
On April 12 2015 05:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Just got around to reading the whole thing. I love the fact that you give justification for each ranking and why they're better than the last guy, it makes it feel a lot more definitive and thought out.
Whoa there. Is giving justification for a ranking something that needs to be commended these days? That's kind of... sad, don't you think? I mean, if this was stuchiu throwing 15 names at us with no justification I'd not even consider taking this seriously <.<.
he's talking about the part where it directly compares each player to the player below them, most every ranking has the general explanation but not the direct comparison
So then something is wrong with this world. Damn it humanity, you have failed us.
can you link me to a ranking that has such a direct comparison like that for every spot?
On April 12 2015 05:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Just got around to reading the whole thing. I love the fact that you give justification for each ranking and why they're better than the last guy, it makes it feel a lot more definitive and thought out.
Whoa there. Is giving justification for a ranking something that needs to be commended these days? That's kind of... sad, don't you think? I mean, if this was stuchiu throwing 15 names at us with no justification I'd not even consider taking this seriously <.<.
he's talking about the part where it directly compares each player to the player below them, most every ranking has the general explanation but not the direct comparison
So then something is wrong with this world. Damn it humanity, you have failed us.
can you link me to a ranking that has such a direct comparison like that for every spot?
I'm saying it's bad they don't always have that, because they should. <.<
I think the #1 spot is very very close between life and mvp, but I think mvp is still the king, narrowly. By the end of the year things might be different. I think Life will be the Flash of Starcraft 2
On April 12 2015 05:14 opisska wrote: I am dying of curiosity to know what are the 10 players that are greater of all times then Maru!
Surely you could easily guess at least 5 of them?
¨ If it should be "of all times", it needs to be people who have made a footprint that lasted for years and that really meant something and (and that will probably be where the actual authors will be at disagreement) it was in Korea, not just beating foreginers/other export Koreans. That would mainly mean to me winning multiple GSL or Starleague titles over several years. Everything other than that needs to be considered on a case by case basis.
The players I have zero doubt that belong to this category are Mvp and Life as proven by their actual results. Then it's getting a little bit tricky.
- MC? Great start, fell off, kept himself relevant through beating foreigners - MMA? the same - Polt? the same - Taeja? never has even reach a final in Korea, somewhat consistent in GSL, fame aquired by beating foreigners - Parting? slightly more accomplished version of Taeja - Innovation, Zest, Nestea, sOs, Soulkey, soO? strong period quite short, not really "all time" players - MKP? what the fuck I don't even - are there any players that are too underated? maybe, but are they top 10 of all times? probably not. Symbol, Losira, Bomber? probably not.
Compared to those, Maru was there from the very beginning. surely, his first great win is as late of 2013, but he has 2 actual starleague titles and he was very impressive outside of these two wins the whole time inbetween.
It's quite a difficult task to rank these other players. Using different kinds of metric, almost any order is possible. However, I don't really feel like saying that Maru is the 3rd greatest player of all times - if you think about it in the right way, you can find similar counterarguments to place him that high as well (relatively irrelevant for a couple of years, occassional inconstistence).
Because I can't really decide an a good measure, I just went by feeling. Some of this will be against my own arguments presented above. It's just people I feel are really great in some sense.
He has also earned the 2nd most money of any Protoss player aside from MC, yet his results are far more impressive than MC's since 2012.
1. Life 2. Mvp 3. Parting 4. MC 5. Polt 6. Taeja 7. MMA 8. Innovation 9. Zest 10. sOs
Seeing as how sOs is #16 in stuchiu's list, who would you replace him with?
My bad didn't read the last part. Nestea I guess even though it's more nostalgia talking, but I guess he was pretty inventive and did a lot of work for Zerg early on and he is including creativity and meta game shifts as reasons for rankings.
@Sharkie, sure MC won 2 GSL's but he was in how many GSL's total, never strung together more then a handful in a row. Parting got a Nestea award and has been in like 18 GSL's, plus he has been competing with the best of the best in Korea since 2012. MC made a fortune off beating up on foreigners and Code A level Koreans for the last few years.
I really don't agree with soO being on this list. Making 4 GSL finals in a row is an amazing thing but he's not shown the consistency to be one of the top 15 of all time. His reign as one of the top Zerg players only lasted for a year (late 2013 to the late 2014) and he hasn't done much aside from being solid in Proleague since then. And the fact remains that he has NEVER won ANY tournament.
I don't even think soO is in the top 20 of all time.
On April 12 2015 06:08 Yakikorosu wrote: I really don't agree with soO being on this list. Making 4 GSL finals in a row is an amazing thing but he's not shown the consistency to be one of the top 15 of all time. His reign as one of the top Zerg players only lasted for a year (late 2013 to the late 2014) and he hasn't done much aside from being solid in Proleague since then. And the fact remains that he has NEVER won ANY tournament.
I don't even think soO is in the top 20 of all time.
That's longer than Nestea was the best zerg in the world . Back in those days there was a GSL every month. Making the finals 4 times in a row over the course of an entire year with multiple metas cannot be understated
Tier 3: IEM NY - 1st MLG Raleigh - 3rd IEM Singapore 2013 - Top 4
DRG won both the MLG Sping Arena and the Championship. Also, being a Nestea award recipient and having iirc a 13x code S streak makes him one of the most consistent players we've ever had. Let this sink in, DRG was in code S back when the group stages were still bo1 and his last code S was in s3 2014...where he would eventually be the last eSF player remaining going all the way to the ro8 without a team.
That easily puts him in the top 10 and imo I'd rank him somewhere around #4-6. That is a more impressive brand of consistency to me than soO's 4x GSL final streak. Consider all those who've risen and fallen over the years in spectacular fashion and now consider DRG's staying power. Even just at the turn of this year, people were already beginning to doubt Zest (the best player of 2014) since he's been showing such a poor performance in Korea.
I think these guys will definitely be somewhere in the top 10: 1. Mvp. 2. Life. 3. TaeJa. 4. Polt. 5. MMA. 6. MC. 7. NesTea.
Filling out the top 10 could be: 8. Zest. 9. INnoVation. 10. PartinG.
However, there are players who are just outside top 10/top 15: Soulkey. Rain. HuK, IdrA, NaNiwa, Stephano. Bomber. sOs. herO. LiquidHerO, HyuN. Maru. Dear. soO.
Well regardless I appreciate the effort and the shitstorm this is sure to bring (like power ranks on steroids) :p.
I imagine poor Nestea is going to be way lower than people expect.
Yeah he was very consistent in Korea, yeah in terms of innovation he's one of the most influential players of this game, yeah he's a 3x champ in a period where Zerg was getting stomped and yeah he did all this while being an older player.
However, he just never could win a foreign event, hasn't even looked Korean-level since early 2013, and has also played several of the worst games of all-time.
On April 12 2015 06:30 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Well regardless I appreciate the effort and the shitstorm this is sure to bring (like power ranks on steroids) :p.
I imagine poor Nestea is going to be way lower than people expect.
Yeah he was very consistent in Korea, yeah in terms of innovation he's one of the most influential players of this game, yeah he's a 3x champ in a period where Zerg was getting stomped and yeah he did all this while being an older player.
However, he just never could win a foreign event, hasn't even looked Korean-level since early 2013, and has also played several of the worst games of all-time.
I'd guess he'll fall around #11-#9.
Speaking of power ranks, where did those go? <.< Also 11 is taken by MarineKing.
On April 12 2015 05:14 opisska wrote: I am dying of curiosity to know what are the 10 players that are greater of all times then Maru!
Surely you could easily guess at least 5 of them?
¨ If it should be "of all times", it needs to be people who have made a footprint that lasted for years and that really meant something and (and that will probably be where the actual authors will be at disagreement) it was in Korea, not just beating foreginers/other export Koreans. That would mainly mean to me winning multiple GSL or Starleague titles over several years. Everything other than that needs to be considered on a case by case basis.
The players I have zero doubt that belong to this category are Mvp and Life as proven by their actual results. Then it's getting a little bit tricky.
- MC? Great start, fell off, kept himself relevant through beating foreigners - MMA? the same - Polt? the same - Taeja? never has even reach a final in Korea, somewhat consistent in GSL, fame aquired by beating foreigners - Parting? slightly more accomplished version of Taeja - Innovation, Zest, Nestea, sOs, Soulkey, soO? strong period quite short, not really "all time" players - MKP? what the fuck I don't even - are there any players that are too underated? maybe, but are they top 10 of all times? probably not. Symbol, Losira, Bomber? probably not.
Compared to those, Maru was there from the very beginning. surely, his first great win is as late of 2013, but he has 2 actual starleague titles and he was very impressive outside of these two wins the whole time inbetween.
It's quite a difficult task to rank these other players. Using different kinds of metric, almost any order is possible. However, I don't really feel like saying that Maru is the 3rd greatest player of all times - if you think about it in the right way, you can find similar counterarguments to place him that high as well (relatively irrelevant for a couple of years, occassional inconstistence).
Because I can't really decide an a good measure, I just went by feeling. Some of this will be against my own arguments presented above. It's just people I feel are really great in some sense.
Your reasoning doesn't make sense. You seem to discard all results before the Kespa influx. And since you place Korean leagues so highly , let's compare how MMA and MC did since the WCS changes. MMA got to round of 4 last season, running into PvT god Parting. He's still is able to compete with the best in Korea. MC? Got stuck in Group of 16 Death. Rain? Same. Couldn't get past 16. And what about Zest? who one can argue has better accomplishments than Rain Innovation #3? One can argue he only dominated due to the hellbat period. How did he do when he was on Acer and competed in all the foreign tournaments along with Taeja? Couldn't even touch Taeja in 2013 and 2014 foreign accomplishments. What about 2014 global finals. Oh yea...
On April 12 2015 06:30 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Well regardless I appreciate the effort and the shitstorm this is sure to bring (like power ranks on steroids) :p.
I imagine poor Nestea is going to be way lower than people expect.
Yeah he was very consistent in Korea, yeah in terms of innovation he's one of the most influential players of this game, yeah he's a 3x champ in a period where Zerg was getting stomped and yeah he did all this while being an older player.
However, he just never could win a foreign event, hasn't even looked Korean-level since early 2013, and has also played several of the worst games of all-time.
I'd guess he'll fall around #11-#9.
Speaking of power ranks, where did those go? <.< Also 11 is taken by MarineKing.
oh, whoops.
Well, anyway my guess for what Stuchiu chose and really what I'd probably go with at this point (probably too generous with Bogus):
10 Bomber 9 Zest 8 Nestea 7 MMA 6 Parting 5 MC 4 Polt 3 Taeja 2 Mvp 1 Life
Even though Mvp's achievements are incredible. I just think Life's consistency over the years now has triumphed. Think he surpassed him with the recent GSL win.
Just realized Bomber isn't gonna make the top 15. Starting to heavily disagree with a few people who made it in. For example ST vs Prime bias aside I passionately believe that Bomber's sc2 career has been much more impressive than Marineking's
On April 12 2015 06:08 Yakikorosu wrote: he's not shown the consistency
u wot m8
Read my post dude. He was an amazing player for a year and did nothing before then and very little after (except that most players who are amazing for a year win at least ONE tournament during that time). When we're talking best players of all time like Mvp, Life, Polt, TaeJa, PartinG, INnoVation, Maru, etc, they've been top players for year after year.
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
Of course there will be some. This isn't THE definitive top 15 list, it's Stuchiu's top 15. Obviously it is well researched and his criteria for ranking is quite good but at the end of the day there will always be bias and that's not such a bad thing. I think upon reading his reasoning many people will either change their minds about certain players or at least be forced to make an equally as informed and supported counter argument.
On April 12 2015 06:08 Yakikorosu wrote: Making 4 GSL finals in a row is an amazing thing
On April 12 2015 06:08 Yakikorosu wrote: he's not shown the consistency
u wot m8
Read my post dude. He was an amazing player for a year and did nothing before then and very little after. When we're talking best players of all time like Mvp, Life, Polt, TaeJa, PartinG, INnoVation, Maru, etc, they've been top players for year after year.
And still soO achieved in one year what others will not in a lifetime, against ridiculous competition aswell. If he'd won all of these finals you wouldn't even begin to question him. Not to mention soO still has room to achieve more, unlike basically retired players like TaeJa and Mvp. There's definitely merit to putting him into the list.
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
Of course there will be some. This isn't THE definitive top 15 list, it's Stuchiu's top 15. Obviously it is well researched and his criteria for ranking is quite good but at the end of the day there will always be bias and that's not such a bad thing. I think upon reading his reasoning many people will either change their minds about certain players or at least be forced to make an equally as informed and supported counter argument.
Here's an interesting tidbit. I wrote an initial list with an eye test. But it changed drastically based on the research. I chased the data and the data formed my opinions, I didn't have an opinion and then forced the data to mold to my preconceived answers.
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
Of course there will be some. This isn't THE definitive top 15 list, it's Stuchiu's top 15. Obviously it is well researched and his criteria for ranking is quite good but at the end of the day there will always be bias and that's not such a bad thing. I think upon reading his reasoning many people will either change their minds about certain players or at least be forced to make an equally as informed and supported counter argument.
Here's an interesting tidbit. I wrote an initial list with an eye test. But it changed drastically based on the research.
Will you show us your initial list after the final part?
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
Of course there will be some. This isn't THE definitive top 15 list, it's Stuchiu's top 15. Obviously it is well researched and his criteria for ranking is quite good but at the end of the day there will always be bias and that's not such a bad thing. I think upon reading his reasoning many people will either change their minds about certain players or at least be forced to make an equally as informed and supported counter argument.
Here's an interesting tidbit. I wrote an initial list with an eye test. But it changed drastically based on the research.
Exact same thing happened to me. My top 20 changed dramatically after putting the time in and researching.
On April 12 2015 06:08 Yakikorosu wrote: Making 4 GSL finals in a row is an amazing thing
On April 12 2015 06:08 Yakikorosu wrote: he's not shown the consistency
u wot m8
Read my post dude. He was an amazing player for a year and did nothing before then and very little after. When we're talking best players of all time like Mvp, Life, Polt, TaeJa, PartinG, INnoVation, Maru, etc, they've been top players for year after year.
And still soO achieved in one year what others will not in a lifetime, against ridiculous competition aswell. If he'd won all of these finals you wouldn't even begin to question him. Not to mention soO still has room to achieve more, unlike basically retired players like TaeJa and Mvp. There's definitely merit to putting him into the list.
But... he DIDN'T win. ANY of them. That's my whole point.
I'll stop posting about soO now but I just don't see how he's top 15 at all. I would put not only Leenock and DRG but a player like Soulkey, who apparently won't make the list at all, ahead of soO.
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
Of course there will be some. This isn't THE definitive top 15 list, it's Stuchiu's top 15. Obviously it is well researched and his criteria for ranking is quite good but at the end of the day there will always be bias and that's not such a bad thing. I think upon reading his reasoning many people will either change their minds about certain players or at least be forced to make an equally as informed and supported counter argument.
Here's an interesting tidbit. I wrote an initial list with an eye test. But it changed drastically based on the research.
Will you show us your initial list after the final part?
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
Of course there will be some. This isn't THE definitive top 15 list, it's Stuchiu's top 15. Obviously it is well researched and his criteria for ranking is quite good but at the end of the day there will always be bias and that's not such a bad thing. I think upon reading his reasoning many people will either change their minds about certain players or at least be forced to make an equally as informed and supported counter argument.
Here's an interesting tidbit. I wrote an initial list with an eye test. But it changed drastically based on the research.
Will you show us your initial list after the final part?
I think the big question is what makes someone one of the "greatest" players ever, as opposed to the most important. A lot of these predictions are incredibly important players in SC2 history, but not as good as others.
Reason why I would rank Life as number 1 is because a lot of MVP's wins were from the GomTvT-era. Also, he was pretty much retired before the Kespa guys showed up. Life has proven to be competitive throught the years.
1 Life 2 Mvp 3 Taeja 4 Nestea 5 MMA 6 MC 7 Innovation 8 Polt 9 Zest 10 Parting
SoS had either good runs or just terrible. Rain on the other hand, quite consistance, but he has not got big tournaments wins. Only Hot6 cup, but its not enough. Bomber doesn't have place in top 10, he hasn't made better results than theese 10 players. Stephano is the best foreigner ever, but he has not been better. Who left ? Dear, HerO ? Dear had one of the highest peaks ever but it was too short. HerO doesn't make sense at all.
Proly Mvp will be #1 and Nestea will be in 6-10. Anyway i think it's gonna be a close prediction
#Edit - I forgot about TANG TANG... Ofc he is better than Zast, not sure where I should put him though
Even though I dont agree with your list, this is extremely well written and is far too much fun to ignore, so I can't wait to see parts 2 and 3. This is as hype as the GSL finals list (fionn?) made.
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
His posting in LR threads. He is quite biased :D
Heart on fire, head on ice
evil all over, how else do you explain the 10 pools in legacy...
It's weird to exclude Bomber in at least the top 15 based on his results (very similar to Polt), but with only 10 players left I don't see him making the list.
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
His posting in LR threads. He is quite biased :D
First of all who isn't biased in LR threads and secondly LOL who the hell are you to talk ROFL
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
His posting in LR threads. He is quite biased :D
First of all who isn't biased in LR threads and secondly LOL who the hell are you to talk ROFL
and now Bloody gets mad and gets banned for posting a macro
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
His posting in LR threads. He is quite biased :D
First of all who isn't biased in LR threads and secondly LOL who the hell are you to talk ROFL
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
His posting in LR threads. He is quite biased :D
First of all who isn't biased in LR threads and secondly LOL who the hell are you to talk ROFL
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
His posting in LR threads. He is quite biased :D
First of all who isn't biased in LR threads and secondly LOL who the hell are you to talk ROFL
On April 12 2015 08:23 Yorkie wrote: This thread has opened my eyes to the strange and ridiculous opinions some of you have about players and their ranking.
On April 12 2015 08:23 Yorkie wrote: This thread has opened my eyes to the strange and ridiculous opinions some of you have about players and their ranking.
who has the best list? I just got here
So far Stuchiu lmao idk I haven't read them all but I've seen MMA out of top ten, Stephano at 6, etc. Just weird stuff
On April 12 2015 08:23 Yorkie wrote: This thread has opened my eyes to the strange and ridiculous opinions some of you have about players and their ranking.
who has the best list? I just got here
So far Stuchiu lmao idk I haven't read them all but I've seen MMA out of top ten, Stephano at 6, etc. Just weird stuff
to be fair my list was what I thought stuch's would be like, my own is far more...interesting
On April 12 2015 07:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I feel like this is going to be really biased
You can easily follow stu's reasoning and question him right in this thread If you disagree - he will see it. What makes you feel it'll be unusually biased?
His posting in LR threads. He is quite biased :D
First of all who isn't biased in LR threads and secondly LOL who the hell are you to talk ROFL
On April 12 2015 08:23 Yorkie wrote: This thread has opened my eyes to the strange and ridiculous opinions some of you have about players and their ranking.
who has the best list? I just got here
So far Stuchiu lmao idk I haven't read them all but I've seen MMA out of top ten, Stephano at 6, etc. Just weird stuff
Yeah, the lists without MMA are ridiculous. Pretty much the same goes for if PartinG isnt there. Also a lot of people don't know how to read and just put sOs in top10 despite being already listed at 16....
What is this about: "For MMA, he had to leave Korea or be engulfed in controversy and drama that would have consumed him and dogged him at every step."?
On April 12 2015 08:55 Supersamu wrote: What is this about: "For MMA, he had to leave Korea or be engulfed in controversy and drama that would have consumed him and dogged him at every step."?
Huge Slayers drama in 2012 centered around MMA and Jessica. MMA was put on the b team temporarily and eventually left.
On April 12 2015 08:55 Supersamu wrote: What is this about: "For MMA, he had to leave Korea or be engulfed in controversy and drama that would have consumed him and dogged him at every step."?
probably from 2013 when koreans had to decide to either go to NA/EU for easier wins, or stay in the death pit that was/is the GSL. That plus the death of Slayers led to some not so good times for MMA, but what can I say but haters gonna hate
On April 12 2015 08:55 Supersamu wrote: What is this about: "For MMA, he had to leave Korea or be engulfed in controversy and drama that would have consumed him and dogged him at every step."?
probably from 2013 when koreans had to decide to either go to NA/EU for easier wins, or stay in the death pit that was/is the GSL. That plus the death of Slayers led to some not so good times for MMA, but what can I say but haters gonna hate
Not that first part MMA had already "left Korea" in this sense by leaving Slayers and jointing Acer
On April 12 2015 08:23 Yorkie wrote: This thread has opened my eyes to the strange and ridiculous opinions some of you have about players and their ranking.
who has the best list? I just got here
So far Stuchiu lmao idk I haven't read them all but I've seen MMA out of top ten, Stephano at 6, etc. Just weird stuff
Yeah, the lists without MMA are ridiculous. Pretty much the same goes for if PartinG isnt there. Also a lot of people don't know how to read and just put sOs in top10 despite being already listed at 16....
I don't know, maybe they don't care about the rankings and are putting him in as their own opinion rather than guessing who the TL writers have there?
Nice to see soO get at least some respect, SC2's King of Kongs, the #1 #2, the best lovable loser, the Buffalo Bills of SC2
As for me I've only followed SC from May 2012 - March 2013 and then from December 2014 - Present so I don't think I know enough to make a real top 10.
On April 12 2015 04:30 KalWarkov wrote: i have a problem. i have 12 players left for 10 spots :O
Zest Nestea Innovation sOs Bomber Taeja Polt Parting MMA MC Life MVP
Hint: three of those aren't in the Top 10
This makes it really interesting. sOs can obviously be kicked since he's 16th, and Bomber is the obvious second to kick. Now the third one off the list is hard; I could see Nestea, Polt or PartinG being it. And the person missing from the list is even harder to decide: herO, HyuN, Rain, Stephano just don't seem to fit, and I can't think of anyone else. Maybe stuchiu will troll us and throw someone in from the left field like PuMa.
@Ziggaraut sOs Bomber Innovation not in top ten maybe? I agree it's tough to pick a tenth player then. HerO/Soulkey are potential stand ins but I wouldn't agree with them if that was the case
On April 12 2015 04:30 KalWarkov wrote: i have a problem. i have 12 players left for 10 spots :O
Zest Nestea Innovation sOs Bomber Taeja Polt Parting MMA MC Life MVP
Hint: three of those aren't in the Top 10
This makes it really interesting. sOs can obviously be kicked since he's 16th, and Bomber is the obvious second to kick. Now the third one off the list is hard; I could see Nestea, Polt or PartinG being it. And the person missing from the list is even harder to decide: herO, HyuN, Rain, Stephano just don't seem to fit, and I can't think of anyone else. Maybe stuchiu will troll us and throw someone in from the left field like PuMa.
On April 12 2015 09:42 Yorkie wrote: @Ziggaraut sOs Bomber Innovation not in top ten maybe? I agree it's tough to pick a tenth player then. HerO/Soulkey are potential stand ins but I wouldn't agree with them if that was the case
Possibly. I'd be inclined to get rid of Nestea or PartinG over him though. But yeah I can't think of anyone at all more deserving than whoever gets kicked either way.
On April 12 2015 09:40 cheekymonkey wrote: I don't think Rain will be on that list.
Totally agree with no Rain in this.
In what world you go with Rain and not Soulkey ?
Soulkey just stomped nearly half a year of ZvT, just when he rollbacked INnoVation in his GSL final. BTW we can't seriously exclude Polt of this top 15, in no world. Stephano shouldn't be there IMO, even tho he marked the history of SCII, he just didn't made it in term of PURE results. $O$, just read the post
So, for me :
#1. MVP (just obvious IMO) #2. Life (hesitating with MC tho) #3. MC #4. Nestea #5. INnoVation (just him or MMA, dunno the order, I just prefer Bogus there )
Seems weird that Bomber is missing from so many of these lists. He's objectively better than Marineking who is 11th here. I don't know... results and longevity aren't getting ranked as highly as they should. I can't think of any reason why I'd rank someone like Inno over Polt all-time, but I'm seeing that on a ton of lists. Good discussion though.
On April 12 2015 09:58 kaykoose wrote: Seems weird that Bomber is missing from so many of these lists. He's objectively better than Marineking who is 11th here. I don't know... results and longevitity aren't getting ranked as highly as they should. I can't think of any reason why I'd rank someone like Inno over Polt all-time, but I'm seeing that on a ton of lists. Good discussion though.
Uh-oh, I don't think you want to open that can of worms :X
IMHO Bomber's career is better than MK's career. I think MK's hiatus plays some part in this, contrasting with Bomber's sustained success when he was in AM. However, MK is probably more storied, considering his (one-sided) rivalry with Mvp and his Kong status.
For Leenock, Just for being in Code S that long at such a young age he should be on the list. Remember when he kept hitting the best players in the world in 2011 and 2012? It was so sad to see.
On April 12 2015 09:40 cheekymonkey wrote: I don't think Rain will be on that list.
Totally agree with no Rain in this.
In what world you go with Rain and not Soulkey ?
Soulkey just stomped nearly half a year of ZvT, just when he rollbacked INnoVation in his GSL final. BTW we can't seriously exclude Polt of this top 15, in no world. Stephano shouldn't be there IMO, even tho he marked the history of SCII, he just didn't made it in term of PURE results. $O$, just read the post
So, for me :
#1. MVP (just obvious IMO) #2. Life (hesitating with MC tho) #3. MC #4. Nestea #5. INnoVation (just him or MMA, dunno the order, I just prefer Bogus there )
EDIT : BTW, IDC why people are putting Zest in top ten ? Maru is not even top ten, in which fuck*ng world Zest would be ranked higher ?
well; soO is in top 15 and for most of 2014 he was viewed as the 2nd best player in the world behind zest. it would be strange if soO would be top15 but zest doesn't.
On April 12 2015 04:30 KalWarkov wrote: i have a problem. i have 12 players left for 10 spots :O
Zest Nestea Innovation sOs Bomber Taeja Polt Parting MMA MC Life MVP
Hint: three of those aren't in the Top 10
i would understand sOs somewhat, but everyone else? idk since u said 3, i have to dismiss 3 and put 1 other in - so i guess stephano? dismissing bomber and Zest as well, since they seem to be the most likely
i'll go with 10 Stephano 9 Polt 8 Nestea 7 Innovation 6 MMA
What exactly does "great series" mean? Great series overall or just great play from the player in question? Because i heavily disagree with Maru vs Stats in the NSSL semi final being listed as a great series. It wasnt bad, good games, but really great were only the game on KSS and maybe the one on foxtrot. first games was not that great and stats just rolled over and died in the rest. i am pretty sure that Maru played better series. e.g. the one vs hero in the last gsl.
also, was the innovation - curious game on frost in the iem online qualifier before or after the drg - innovation series?
On April 12 2015 10:51 Paljas wrote: What exactly does "great series" mean? Great series overall or just great play from the player in question. Because i heavily disagree with Maru vs Stats in the NSSL semi final being listed as a great series. It wasnt bad, good games, but really great were only the game on KSS and maybe the one on foxtrot. first games was not that great and stats just rolled over and died in the rest. i am pretty sure that Maru played better series. e.g. the one vs hero in the last gsl.
also, was the innovation - curious game on frost in the iem online qualifier before or after the drg - innovation series?
I think Inno-Curious was after. It might have been before though.
As for Great series, it basically meant I thought there was something special about at least 1 game in the series that reflects on how the player looks at and plays the game. That gives you a really strong expression of who the player is and how they approach the game. (In that case it was the KSS game).
On April 12 2015 09:58 kaykoose wrote: Seems weird that Bomber is missing from so many of these lists. He's objectively better than Marineking who is 11th here. I don't know... results and longevitity aren't getting ranked as highly as they should. I can't think of any reason why I'd rank someone like Inno over Polt all-time, but I'm seeing that on a ton of lists. Good discussion though.
Uh-oh, I don't think you want to open that can of worms :X
Lol. I mean just going off results/longevity, it's a clear advantage for Bomber. I guess I don't get the allure of Marineking.
Anyway, my list....
10. Innovation - Could maybe put Parting here. I'm fine either way. Both are super good. Just haven't won enough to warrant them being any higher. 9. Zest - His 2014 was that good. I believe he is tied for 3rd in premier wins for a protoss.. and it took him just a year and some change to do it. 8. Bomber - Probably the best terran in 2014. 4-0'd Cure at Red Bull. Ridiculous longevity/6 premiers 7. Nestea - Best zerg of Wings. 2nd best Wings player? Lack of longevity hurts him since he didn't win as much as Mvp. 6. Polt - Only terran to go blow for blow vs protoss imbalance in early 2014. Ridiculous longevity/7 premiers, 3-time WCS Champion 5. MC - Bosstoss. Relevant since the beginning/6 premiers 4. MMA - Arguably the 2nd best terran of all time. Ridiculous longevity/8 premiers. Beat prime Mvp 4-1. Hell, I might put him 3rd 3. Taeja - King of HotS? Or, he was until Life turned up last year 2. Life - Last GSL win sealed it. Could be the GOAT soon 1. Mvp - King of Wings
On April 12 2015 09:42 Yorkie wrote: @Ziggaraut sOs Bomber Innovation not in top ten maybe? I agree it's tough to pick a tenth player then. HerO/Soulkey are potential stand ins but I wouldn't agree with them if that was the case
Possibly. I'd be inclined to get rid of Nestea or PartinG over him though. But yeah I can't think of anyone at all more deserving than whoever gets kicked either way.
That's very weird. Can't think of anyone who doesn't deserve to be top16. if I had to pick one of the list I would say INno although i can't think of anyone who could replace him.
On April 12 2015 11:13 lichter wrote: a foreigner on the list? lololol
We should give them their own list, since we give foreigners their own everything these days. WCS Charity league, free invites to S2SL that they always squander, free fans just for being white, etc.. as TB says it's easy being a foreigner and they need special treatment.
On April 12 2015 11:13 lichter wrote: a foreigner on the list? lololol
We should give them their own list, since we give foreigners their own everything these days. WCS Charity league, free invites to S2SL that they always squander, free fans just for being white, etc.. as TB says it's easy being a foreigner and they need special treatment.
On April 12 2015 11:13 lichter wrote: a foreigner on the list? lololol
We should give them their own list, since we give foreigners their own everything these days. WCS Charity league, free invites to S2SL that they always squander, free fans just for being white, etc.. as TB says it's easy being a foreigner and they need special treatment.
#1 Mvp #2 Life #3 MC #4 MMA #5 Taeja #6 Polt #7 Nestea #8 Parting #9 Bomber #10 HerO
Explanations:
Mvp over Life because stuchiu also because it's correct until Life wins another GSL. MC 3rd as he's #1 in earnings and was the only Protoss with any success for over a year. (by playing dirty but still) MMA/Polt/Taeja over Nestea because of longer careers. (also because of Nestea's bracket luck which won't be addressed in the article) Polt vs Taeja is tricky because you have 7 premier wins for Polt and 11 for Taeja, $350k in earnings for Polt and $275k for Taeja, and you have Polt's Super Tournament win while Taeja doesn't have a Korean tournament win. Tough call so it's safe to go with Liquid bias. MMA is above both because of two Korean wins (GSL and Hot6) and he's still a top terran while Taeja has fallen off and Polt is in foreign-land. Parting and Bomber make it because the article is being written by Startale fans.
Zealously mentioned that only 9 of the 12 players KalWarkov posted are in the top 10, so there's a "wild-card" which is likely to be Stephano, HerO, or Jaedong. Out of the three Stephano has the most winnings but HerO had the best overall career and also Liquid bias but not really since HerO really was better overall than Stephano even if Stephano wrecked him often with BL/Infestor.
On April 12 2015 11:25 Cheren wrote: #1 Mvp #2 Life #3 MC #4 MMA #5 Taeja #6 Polt #7 Nestea #8 Parting #9 Bomber #10 HerO
Explanations:
Mvp over Life because stuchiu also because it's correct until Life wins another GSL. MC 3rd as he's #1 in earnings and was the only Protoss with any success for over a year. (by playing dirty but still) MMA/Polt/Taeja over Nestea because of longer careers. (also because of Nestea's bracket luck which won't be addressed in the article) Polt vs Taeja is tricky because you have 7 premier wins for Polt and 11 for Taeja, $350k in earnings for Polt and $275k for Taeja, and you have Polt's Super Tournament win while Taeja doesn't have a Korean tournament win. Tough call so it's safe to go with Liquid bias. MMA is above both because of two Korean wins (GSL and Hot6) and he's still a top terran while Taeja has fallen off and Polt is in foreign-land. Parting and Bomber make it because the article is being written by Startale fans.
Zealously mentioned that only 9 of the 12 players KalWarkov posted are in the top 10, so there's a "wild-card" which is likely to be Stephano, HerO, or Jaedong. Out of the three Stephano has the most winnings but HerO had the best overall career and also Liquid bias but not really since HerO really was better overall than Stephano even if Stephano wrecked him often with BL/Infestor.
I think your analysis is great but you're literally the only one in this entire thread to mention jaedong, lol.
On April 12 2015 11:25 Cheren wrote: #1 Mvp #2 Life #3 MC #4 MMA #5 Taeja #6 Polt #7 Nestea #8 Parting #9 Bomber #10 HerO
Explanations:
Mvp over Life because stuchiu also because it's correct until Life wins another GSL. MC 3rd as he's #1 in earnings and was the only Protoss with any success for over a year. (by playing dirty but still) MMA/Polt/Taeja over Nestea because of longer careers. (also because of Nestea's bracket luck which won't be addressed in the article) Polt vs Taeja is tricky because you have 7 premier wins for Polt and 11 for Taeja, $350k in earnings for Polt and $275k for Taeja, and you have Polt's Super Tournament win while Taeja doesn't have a Korean tournament win. Tough call so it's safe to go with Liquid bias. MMA is above both because of two Korean wins (GSL and Hot6) and he's still a top terran while Taeja has fallen off and Polt is in foreign-land. Parting and Bomber make it because the article is being written by Startale fans.
Zealously mentioned that only 9 of the 12 players KalWarkov posted are in the top 10, so there's a "wild-card" which is likely to be Stephano, HerO, or Jaedong. Out of the three Stephano has the most winnings but HerO had the best overall career and also Liquid bias but not really since HerO really was better overall than Stephano even if Stephano wrecked him often with BL/Infestor.
I think your analysis is great but you're literally the only one in this entire thread to mention jaedong, lol.
stuch will lose all my respect for him if Jaedong is on the list
On April 12 2015 11:13 lichter wrote: a foreigner on the list? lololol
I know It's controversial and knowing stuch stephano probably isn't on it. I see him as one of the all time greats, but then again if leenock and DRG are below 10th stephano probably isn't there.
On April 12 2015 11:25 Cheren wrote: #1 Mvp #2 Life #3 MC #4 MMA #5 Taeja #6 Polt #7 Nestea #8 Parting #9 Bomber #10 HerO
Explanations:
Mvp over Life because stuchiu also because it's correct until Life wins another GSL. MC 3rd as he's #1 in earnings and was the only Protoss with any success for over a year. (by playing dirty but still) MMA/Polt/Taeja over Nestea because of longer careers. (also because of Nestea's bracket luck which won't be addressed in the article) Polt vs Taeja is tricky because you have 7 premier wins for Polt and 11 for Taeja, $350k in earnings for Polt and $275k for Taeja, and you have Polt's Super Tournament win while Taeja doesn't have a Korean tournament win. Tough call so it's safe to go with Liquid bias. MMA is above both because of two Korean wins (GSL and Hot6) and he's still a top terran while Taeja has fallen off and Polt is in foreign-land. Parting and Bomber make it because the article is being written by Startale fans.
Zealously mentioned that only 9 of the 12 players KalWarkov posted are in the top 10, so there's a "wild-card" which is likely to be Stephano, HerO, or Jaedong. Out of the three Stephano has the most winnings but HerO had the best overall career and also Liquid bias but not really since HerO really was better overall than Stephano even if Stephano wrecked him often with BL/Infestor.
I think your analysis is great but you're literally the only one in this entire thread to mention jaedong, lol.
stuch will lose all my respect for him if Jaedong is on the list
He's #1 on my Has' Top 5 games played of all time.
Mvp and Life are the clear top 2, no one seems to be contesting that. I think Mvp is first, but it sure is getting close. I think Taeja, MMA, and MC are the clear next tier. It baffles me that a lot of people are putting MMA in the 7-10 range, especially with the reasoning that his relevancy is due to beating on foreigners, which is preposterous when you look at the recent Blizzcon and GSL. I personally think MC is a step below Taeja and MMA, but those two are pretty hard to rate. My heart says MMA, and my brain can't really decide.
The rest are pretty hard for me to decide. Polt, Parting, and Zest are in there for sure I think. Otherwise, Nestea? It's personally hard for me to compare him to others, because the three GSL wins are just so insane, but he has no results otherwise. Bomber? Hero? Innovation (less sold on him)?
Excited to read the rest, I hope there's also a section mentioning the other top candidates that didn't make the top 15!
#1 Mvp #2 Life #3 MC #4 MMA #5 Taeja #6 Polt #7 Bomber #8 Nestea #9 Parting #10 Innovation
honestly I'm not sure which player should be 9th and which should be 10th, if I'm somehow wrong about one of the picks I'm going to guess that Zest or TLHero is in there instead.
On April 12 2015 11:25 Cheren wrote: #1 Mvp #2 Life #3 MC #4 MMA #5 Taeja #6 Polt #7 Nestea #8 Parting #9 Bomber #10 HerO
Explanations:
Mvp over Life because stuchiu also because it's correct until Life wins another GSL. MC 3rd as he's #1 in earnings and was the only Protoss with any success for over a year. (by playing dirty but still) MMA/Polt/Taeja over Nestea because of longer careers. (also because of Nestea's bracket luck which won't be addressed in the article) Polt vs Taeja is tricky because you have 7 premier wins for Polt and 11 for Taeja, $350k in earnings for Polt and $275k for Taeja, and you have Polt's Super Tournament win while Taeja doesn't have a Korean tournament win. Tough call so it's safe to go with Liquid bias. MMA is above both because of two Korean wins (GSL and Hot6) and he's still a top terran while Taeja has fallen off and Polt is in foreign-land. Parting and Bomber make it because the article is being written by Startale fans.
Zealously mentioned that only 9 of the 12 players KalWarkov posted are in the top 10, so there's a "wild-card" which is likely to be Stephano, HerO, or Jaedong. Out of the three Stephano has the most winnings but HerO had the best overall career and also Liquid bias but not really since HerO really was better overall than Stephano even if Stephano wrecked him often with BL/Infestor.
I think your analysis is great but you're literally the only one in this entire thread to mention jaedong, lol.
stuch will lose all my respect for him if Jaedong is on the list
He's #1 on my Has' Top 5 games played of all time.
thats completely different, in that he was getting wrekt by has, which was incredibly amusing....when I made that comment I was specifically referring to this (GOAT) list
On April 12 2015 12:22 Tiaraju9 wrote: I find hard to believe that sOs is not one of the best 15 SC2 players.
He has a very high prize money won/premier tournaments won and sustained success ratio, I will say that. It's that lack of sustained success/dominance compared to most of the rest the list that keeps him off, I think.
I think the ranking is already bad because leenock is over people like rain, parting, zest, innovation or soulkey (i belive mvp, life, mc, taeja, nestea, polt, mma and bomber are obviusly top 10 players so there are 2 spot left and the rest will be out of top 15). Also DRG ranked below soO and MK was kind of shoking winning Gsl, MLG,IEM and finishing second in osl, MLG, IEM and blizzard cup means less than finishing second 4 times in GSL. Without saying that DRG has been one of the olayers that won the nestea award.
I don't know why people keep placing Mvp first. He was a amazing. but at the beginning of SC2. That's why I think NesTea doesn't deserve a spot on this list. I get that NesTea won three GSLs. But when did he do that? When nobody besides a handful of players knew how to play the game. It wasn't nearly as figured out as it is now. I really think that Life is the best player of SC2 because he won a GSL when Mvp was in his prime (actually beating him in the finals), and he just won Blizzcon and GSL now, 3 years later, apart from many other tournaments. It would be cool to see a list of all the players in their prime. When they were at the top of their game. That would be so hard to judge. People like Jaedong, Dear and Soulkey would belong on that list.
On April 12 2015 16:36 Naikonz wrote: I don't know why people keep placing Mvp first. He was a amazing. but at the beginning of SC2. That's why I think NesTea doesn't deserve a spot on this list. I get that NesTea won three GSLs. But when did he do that? When nobody besides a handful of players knew how to play the game. It wasn't nearly as figured out as it is now. I really think that Life is the best player of SC2 because he won a GSL when Mvp was in his prime (actually beating him in the finals), and he just won Blizzcon and GSL now, 3 years later, apart from many other tournaments. It would be cool to see a list of all the players in their prime. When they were at the top of their game. That would be so hard to judge. People like Jaedong, Dear and Soulkey would belong on that list.
Because Mvp:
figured out Terran; you say "the game wasn't nearly as figured out as it is now", Mvp was literally the person to figure out how to win with Terran, even when the other races were overpowered by comparison
defined the meta; hellion/banshee was perfected by Mvp and remained relevant throughout time
he won GSL 4 times aswell as numerous MLGs and a Blizzcon
Life didn't win the finals against Mvp in his prime; Mvp not only suffered from severe wrist issues by then, he also has this, and still reached GSL finals in a condition that bad
So you see there are enough reasons to consider Mvp ahead .
On April 12 2015 17:01 berkston wrote: i'm about 100% sure this how it goes:
10- sos 9 - parting 8 - nestea 7 - polt 6 - mc
then:
5 - zest 4 - mma 3 - taeja 2 - mvp 1 - life
Try again, sOs is #16, it says so in the part about Leenock.
I didn't make a statistics, but it seems to me that about half of the people rank Taeja 3rd.
What the mythical fuck is wrong with you people? He is one of the cutest creations in the world and he is really, really good at shitting all over foreigners and a selected subset of Korean players who like to travel, but he has never ever even reached a finals in Korea. Just get real.
On April 12 2015 05:14 opisska wrote: I am dying of curiosity to know what are the 10 players that are greater of all times then Maru!
Surely you could easily guess at least 5 of them?
¨ If it should be "of all times", it needs to be people who have made a footprint that lasted for years and that really meant something and (and that will probably be where the actual authors will be at disagreement) it was in Korea, not just beating foreginers/other export Koreans. That would mainly mean to me winning multiple GSL or Starleague titles over several years. Everything other than that needs to be considered on a case by case basis.
The players I have zero doubt that belong to this category are Mvp and Life as proven by their actual results. Then it's getting a little bit tricky.
- MC? Great start, fell off, kept himself relevant through beating foreigners - MMA? the same - Polt? the same - Taeja? never has even reach a final in Korea, somewhat consistent in GSL, fame aquired by beating foreigners - Parting? slightly more accomplished version of Taeja - Innovation, Zest, Nestea, sOs, Soulkey, soO? strong period quite short, not really "all time" players - MKP? what the fuck I don't even - are there any players that are too underated? maybe, but are they top 10 of all times? probably not. Symbol, Losira, Bomber? probably not.
Compared to those, Maru was there from the very beginning. surely, his first great win is as late of 2013, but he has 2 actual starleague titles and he was very impressive outside of these two wins the whole time inbetween.
It's quite a difficult task to rank these other players. Using different kinds of metric, almost any order is possible. However, I don't really feel like saying that Maru is the 3rd greatest player of all times - if you think about it in the right way, you can find similar counterarguments to place him that high as well (relatively irrelevant for a couple of years, occassional inconstistence).
Because I can't really decide an a good measure, I just went by feeling. Some of this will be against my own arguments presented above. It's just people I feel are really great in some sense.
Your reasoning doesn't make sense. You seem to discard all results before the Kespa influx. And since you place Korean leagues so highly , let's compare how MMA and MC did since the WCS changes. MMA got to round of 4 last season, running into PvT god Parting. He's still is able to compete with the best in Korea. MC? Got stuck in Group of 16 Death. Rain? Same. Couldn't get past 16. And what about Zest? who one can argue has better accomplishments than Rain Innovation #3? One can argue he only dominated due to the hellbat period. How did he do when he was on Acer and competed in all the foreign tournaments along with Taeja? Couldn't even touch Taeja in 2013 and 2014 foreign accomplishments. What about 2014 global finals. Oh yea...
I certainly did not discard pre-Kespa results. That's why Mvp and Life are on the top for heaven's sake. Life solely on his recent results is pretty good, but it is only the extremely timespan over which his results exist that makes me think that he is undoubtedly 2nd. And Mvp did jack shit since the switch, he just dominated the whole period before.
I watched MMA's ro4 run with sheer joy, but it is his only notable success in Korea in years. Yes, those guys chose not to compete in GSL - but that's their fault, I am sorry. If you think you are the best, compete among the best, not in WCS America or Europe, tourneys that are certified to be easier than code A.
In general I am very reluctant to accept "got to ro16, but it was group of death" as an argument. Perception of "difficult" oponents is very skewed on TL towards popular people and if you are truly great, you have to be able to beat anyone.
But I noted that the order of 2-6 is mostly emotional. I feel Inno was unique by how he was so dominant during his best period, even all the other players constantly talked about him in interviews and the whole assesment of a player was reduced to "can he beat Inno?". Rain I put because of how he shaped the Protoss game. That may be a bias, I used to play protoss in 2012.
Not going to bother guessing. I'll just say that if Mvp isn't in the top spot, it's a crime against humanity. Two years after his prime he looked he might knock out the best player in the world, Innovation, at the WCS finals. That ability to pull out wins without wrists is just unworldly.
On April 12 2015 17:56 opisska wrote: I didn't make a statistics, but it seems to me that about half of the people rank Taeja 3rd.
What the mythical fuck is wrong with you people? He is one of the cutest creations in the world and he is really, really good at shitting all over foreigners and a selected subset of Korean players who like to travel, but he has never ever even reached a finals in Korea. Just get real. .
Well it's true that he never won a Gsl and that's might be why he doesn't deserve the first spot, but he made 2 Gsl ro4 run he was bad at gsl format but he was a beast in week-end tournament where he could beat any one, look at his run in dreamhack summer 2014 he went 17-0 beating player like Hero and jaedong. and back in 2012 when he carry TL in IPTL going 23-3 against the best korean team and almost all kiling IM twice, crushing seed when he just won his gsl title . So yes he only won outside korea but who else had won 11 tournament in 3 year( incuding 5 in one year) , so yes he probably doesn't deserve the first spot but he is top 5 at least .
On April 12 2015 18:55 Schelim wrote: top 3 gonna be Mvp, MC, Nestea in that order or stuchiu is wrong. also Stephano will probably be in there to refute claims of racism.
Honestly, Life has to be top 3. I mean, he HAS to. I don't see one world where he is not.
On April 12 2015 18:55 Schelim wrote: top 3 gonna be Mvp, MC, Nestea in that order or stuchiu is wrong. also Stephano will probably be in there to refute claims of racism.
Honestly, Life has to be top 3. I mean, he HAS to. I don't see one world where he is not.
I'd have thought Life was a lock for #2 for almost everyone, if not #1. :/
Mvp achievement is more than just tournament wins. He was still finding his own style in early hots such as thor raven against sh. (and his own special tvt builds against innovation during his prime)
Nestea should be there not just because of his gsl but also his games with mass banelings blowing up mass thors and his 90%+ win rate in zvz. He played in some of the worst zerg maps and still dominate hard. He was just way ahead of other zerg players.
It was good to be a IM fan back then T T
Life must be within top 5 Parting deserve it as well, he has never really slumped off imo.
I think herO and zest should be there just because of the monstrous skill they displayed, but probably top ten.
On April 12 2015 04:30 KalWarkov wrote: i have a problem. i have 12 players left for 10 spots :O
Zest Nestea Innovation sOs Bomber Taeja Polt Parting MMA MC Life MVP
Hint: three of those aren't in the Top 10
As we see from Zealously post, three players here are guessed wrong, which perfectly fits in my ranking, with exclusion of sOs, Bomber and Parting and addition of Rain.
Now with reasoning. As it seems from the ranking, wins in Korea plays a huge part in the player's position as well as consistensy. As for impact made on the game and dominating form - about this I cannot be sure, since missed quite a lot of Starcraft, especially in 2012 and 2014. Also, why I've excluded Bomber and Parting: Bomber - most of the victories are in NA, only one korean title is GSL Code A somwhere in early 2011, so for reasons, mentioned above, I left him aside. With Parting it was a bit harder. Yes, he is very consistent player and have Nestea award. But in the rankings we already have a Nestea award winner - DRG, who actually have a GSL championship under his belt. So I decided, that titles mean a little more than mere consistency, and left Parting out of the top, since he lacks any korean Premier win.
So, lets go down by the ranking. 10. Polt - Super Tournament champion, quite consistent player with multiple victories all over the world, no big slumps. What differs him from Bomber, who is out of the list? Super Tournament victory and the fact, that Bomber was falling out of radar more, in my opinion. 9. Rain - consistency (9 code S of 10 GSL participations) and 2 Korean championships (even if we count OSL 1 as "easier" tournament sue to recently switched Kespa pros, which I won't buy since in the playoffs Rain crushed trough ESF players such as MKP, Parting and DRG). 8. Innovation - now I think that put him quite high in the list, but was comparing him directly with Rain, and Innovation's results seemed a bit higher to me. More deep runs, 2 big championships one of which is GSL, the 2nd most important tournament in the rankings. 7. Nestea - at first he was even on 5th place, but later I switched him and MMA. 3 GSL victories, being constant top player in 2010-2012, but then he started to lose ground, and also his victories were made in somewhat easier times. But Nestea is very intelligent player and IIRC made huge impact on Zerg playstyle in the time he was playing. 6. Zest - the most dominant player of 2014, I guess. Though I may put him a bit too high in the list of GOAT, but he still have 4 Premier wins in tournaments stacked with top koreans (one of which is GSL) in a span of one year. 5. MMA - quite similar to Polt and Bomber, but with much more dominant period in Korea, with GSL and Blizzard Cup victories and 2nd place in Super Tournament. Though he fell in a slump, MMA managed to rise again, aquire some lesser premier tourneys and take 2nd place at Blizzcon, which is considered here as the most important tourney ever. 4. MC - half-million dollar man, 2 GSl victories, one 2nd place, multiple victories, 2nd, 3rd, 4th places, top1 in amount of medals combined and still a good player. 3. Taeja - most premier wins, but all of them are outside of Korea. Great consistensy though. + Liquid bias. 2. Mvp - 4 GSL victories, 2 GSL 2nd places and numerous other tournaments. Dominant for whole WoL, but now he is a shadow of former-self unfortunately. 1. Life - if he didn't perform so well lately, I would but him on the 2nd, or even 3rd place. But GSL win and SSL top4 shows that his victories in the late 2014 were not a fluke. So if we add the fact that Life may be easily considered the best player in the world right now to the giant list of his previous achivements (like GSL, Blizzard Cup, most stacked MLG ever, and etc.), I believe he can be considered top 1. Though as I said, this moment I've decided with coinflip.
The weak points in my arguments: I seem to evaluate victories in Korean Premiers a bit too much over consistent being on the top as well as victories on the non-korean (geographically) tournaments.
Possible mistakes: If we look at Zealously quote again, we see that there are some variations possible. sOs is out for sure, which leaves us with 11 players, 2 of which are guessed wrong. Let's try to gess who is it, and who is the one to fill the spot. MMA, MC, Life, Mvp, Nestea, Taeja - I believe these 6 surely share some places in top10, just due to the amount of results in Korea (for first 5) as well as consistency and legacy made. Now if SoO and Maru made it to the top15, then I dead sure that Zest will be there as well, again, due to his outstanding performance in Korea. Which leaves us with 4 more questionable picks: Bomber Polt Innovation Parting
I've described my opinion on their weak and strong points, so I won't repeat myself. I'm just sure that 2 of them are not on the top-10. Who - we will know in the next week.
Now for the one person to be here - there could be also some interesting variations, most of which are already mentioned in the thread. So let's look at possible contenders. Fruitdealer - I seeeeriously doubt that. Winning 1st GSL ever, even in hard times for his race, will damn sure won't make you the best player of ALL times. H/herO - both, despite their splendid performance, were not dominant, nor did they won any korean premier. Jaedong - though I was his fan in BW, there is no chance in hell he'll get in the list, due to lack of consistency and struggling even at non-korean tourneys. Hyun - same. Symbol - despite being one of the major Kong he surely do not surpass SoO and MKP in that regard, so he cannot be here. Squirtle - same.
Which leaves us with 3 most likely choices. Soulkey - One GSL Championship and one 2nd place on Hot6ix cup. Always being stable contender for the championship and always a legitimate threat, but never the best of the best. Rain - see above. In comparison to Soulkey they seem quite similar - both came with Kespa (though Rain did succeeded a bit earlier), both consistent and deadly. But I'll put Rain a bit above due to 2 korean championships (in the finals of one he also did beat Soulkey), why Soulkey has 1. Also other results seem a bit higher for the Rain as well. Stephano - damn, if he make it to the top10, then I made a major fuckup in my calculations. Don't get me wrong, I like Stephano, alwasy loocked up at him as a foreigner hope until he retired, and yes, he have 4 premier wins, but to put him at top 10 GOAT list? Don't think so. Period of his dominance was a little bigger than a year, and he never made it deep in Korea. His wins were all international tourneys, and despite beating some good Koreans there, I doubt we may consider him such a great player. Top 15 maybe, but not top 10, so I'll leave him out of my calculations Still, I would be happy to see him, though it will prove me dead wrong.
So now we have 4 names 2 of which had to go and 2 names 1 of which we need to add. Bomber Polt Innovation Parting
Soulkey Rain
We may divide these players into ESF and Kespa groups. Bomber, Polt and Parting being here almost from the start and being consistent throughout the years, all of them didn't get much on the homeground (with the exception of Polt's ST championship). But Parting continued to play in Korea, remaing consistently strong and sometimes being on the verge of winning, but never made it in Korea. His victories on WCG and WCS were, well, fairly easy, and Homestory X and Red Bull can't be compared to actual Korean tournaments. Still he got 3 2nd places, and may be I've really underestimated Parting due to his lack of actual wins. Polt and Bomber are the same in many regards, but I consider Polt as more stable player +his ST win.
As for Kespa (Soulkey, Innovation, Rain) - as I know sure, at least one of them should be in and one of them not. From these 3 I consider Soulkey as the weakest one at least in terms of results. Inno and Rain seems quite similar in terms of results, perfromance and impact on the game and I don't think that one of them will be in, and one will not.
So it leaves us with Rain in and either Bomber and Polt or Bomber and Parting out.
On April 12 2015 17:56 opisska wrote: I didn't make a statistics, but it seems to me that about half of the people rank Taeja 3rd.
What the mythical fuck is wrong with you people? He is one of the cutest creations in the world and he is really, really good at shitting all over foreigners and a selected subset of Korean players who like to travel, but he has never ever even reached a finals in Korea. Just get real. .
Well it's true that he never won a Gsl and that's might be why he doesn't deserve the first spot, but he made 2 Gsl ro4 run he was bad at gsl format but he was a beast in week-end tournament where he could beat any one, look at his run in dreamhack summer 2014 he went 17-0 beating player like Hero and jaedong. and back in 2012 when he carry TL in IPTL going 23-3 against the best korean team and almost all kiling IM twice, crushing seed when he just won his gsl title . So yes he only won outside korea but who else had won 11 tournament in 3 year( incuding 5 in one year) , so yes he probably doesn't deserve the first spot but he is top 5 at least .
And there you show exactly the problem of every pro-Taeja reasoning. He "beat players like Hero and Jaedong", that is, players whose SC2 fame is of exactly the same origin - being good in foreign events. This is argumentation in circle, these players beat each other in their closed ecosystem, but who of them has proven he can consistently defeat the real competition? And the two ro4, come on, soO who is 4 times better in the "GSL showings" category (twice more at twice better spot, that is four) is not even top 10 ...
edit: to be clear, I watched most of Taeja's runs and I cheered for him almost always, but we need to be a little realistic.
This is my predicted ranking, although I don't think Mvp deserves the #1 spot anymore, Life and arguably MMA have surpassed his achievements and Mvp has been irrelevant for most of HOTS. Mvp having health problems also shouldn't come into the discussion.
Edit : Switching Parting for Rain since after reading Zealously's hint my ranking couldn't be right.
On April 12 2015 18:55 Schelim wrote: top 3 gonna be Mvp, MC, Nestea in that order or stuchiu is wrong. also Stephano will probably be in there to refute claims of racism.
Honestly, Life has to be top 3. I mean, he HAS to. I don't see one world where he is not.
I'd have thought Life was a lock for #2 for almost everyone, if not #1. :/
As an IM fanboy who still holds a grudge over that G5L disappointment, I have to admit Life should be a lock for #2. I'm not sure where Nestea and MC will wind up, but I'd be surprised if MC at the least wasn't top 5.
On April 12 2015 19:23 opisska wrote: And there you show exactly the problem of every pro-Taeja reasoning. He "beat players like Hero and Jaedong", that is, players whose SC2 fame is of exactly the same origin - being good in foreign events. This is argumentation in circle, these players beat each other in their closed ecosystem, but who of them has proven he can consistently defeat the real competition? And the two ro4, come on, soO who is 4 times better in the "GSL showings" category (twice more at twice better spot, that is four) is not even top 10 ...
How about 29-20 vs Life, 7-4 vs Soulkey, 20-12 vs Innovation, 13-7 against MMA, 5-1 vs Zest, 3-1 vs SoO, 10-8 vs DRG? Also this is TeamLiquid. Taeja will be in top5 here for sure, and 3rd place is quite a possibility.
On April 12 2015 17:56 opisska wrote: I didn't make a statistics, but it seems to me that about half of the people rank Taeja 3rd.
What the mythical fuck is wrong with you people? He is one of the cutest creations in the world and he is really, really good at shitting all over foreigners and a selected subset of Korean players who like to travel, but he has never ever even reached a finals in Korea. Just get real. .
Well it's true that he never won a Gsl and that's might be why he doesn't deserve the first spot, but he made 2 Gsl ro4 run he was bad at gsl format but he was a beast in week-end tournament where he could beat any one, look at his run in dreamhack summer 2014 he went 17-0 beating player like Hero and jaedong. and back in 2012 when he carry TL in IPTL going 23-3 against the best korean team and almost all kiling IM twice, crushing seed when he just won his gsl title . So yes he only won outside korea but who else had won 11 tournament in 3 year( incuding 5 in one year) , so yes he probably doesn't deserve the first spot but he is top 5 at least .
And there you show exactly the problem of every pro-Taeja reasoning. He "beat players like Hero and Jaedong", that is, players whose SC2 fame is of exactly the same origin - being good in foreign events. This is argumentation in circle, these players beat each other in their closed ecosystem, but who of them has proven he can consistently defeat the real competition? And the two ro4, come on, soO who is 4 times better in the "GSL showings" category (twice more at twice better spot, that is four) is not even top 10 ...
edit: to be clear, I watched most of Taeja's runs and I cheered for him almost always, but we need to be a little realistic.
Maybe selling TaeJa's runs short then. I agree HerO and JaeDong aren't among the greatest of greatest because most of their fame comes from their competition in non-Korean environments. But in weekend tournaments, other players simply don't hold up. In those, TaeJa has beaten players like soO, INnoVation, Life, Zest and many others. It's true, TaeJa lacks the big results in Korean tournaments, but this doesn't change the fact that he is one of the greatest in history, on his best days he could always beat anyone (even with wrist issues).
That said, I wouldn't rank him top 3 either but definitely top 10 and maybe top 5.
On April 12 2015 19:23 opisska wrote: And there you show exactly the problem of every pro-Taeja reasoning. He "beat players like Hero and Jaedong", that is, players whose SC2 fame is of exactly the same origin - being good in foreign events. This is argumentation in circle, these players beat each other in their closed ecosystem, but who of them has proven he can consistently defeat the real competition? And the two ro4, come on, soO who is 4 times better in the "GSL showings" category (twice more at twice better spot, that is four) is not even top 10 ...
How about 29-20 vs Life, 7-4 vs Soulkey, 20-12 vs Innovation, 13-7 against MMA, 5-1 vs Zest, 3-1 vs SoO, 10-8 vs DRG? Also this is TeamLiquid. Taeja will be in top5 here for sure, and 3rd place is quite a possibility.
Wow, these are some stats! I may have been a little to harsh on that kid. 20-12 vs. Inno is not that surprising, because he always somehow had his number, but holy fuck the other stats are cool.
On April 12 2015 19:45 Maxilicious wrote: The three weaknesses of MarineKing mentioned in the article 1. Stubbornness 2. Composure 3. Unwillingness to change
The first and third do not seem to be distinct to me conceptually.
I would interpret stubbornness as the refusal to adapt to his opponent's strategy and the maps throughout a series and unwillingness to change as the refusal to adapt to the meta game.
On April 12 2015 19:45 Maxilicious wrote: The three weaknesses of MarineKing mentioned in the article 1. Stubbornness 2. Composure 3. Unwillingness to change
The first and third do not seem to be distinct to me conceptually.
I guess I wasn't clear enough. #1 is more of his inability to change to in-game problems within a game/series. Like using 11/11 7 times when it's clear Nestea was expecting and holding it off. Or using base trade TvT against Mvp when he practiced this style against Mvp.
Unwillingness to change is the ability to change the way you play in response to the meta. I'll take someone not in the list for an example. Symbol from 2012 to the end of 2013 changed his style massively from month to month to win. He started as an ultra/infestor/baneling/queen player. Lost to Seed and decided if he wanted to win, he needed to play BL/infestor. He then went from that to a roach/bane all-in player to a roach/hydra to a muta/ling/bae to a mass ling/bane style before he fell off top tier competition.
A more recent example is Snute. From 2012 to now he went from a ling/bling player (In ZvP) to a roach/ling to bl/infestor, roach/hydra/viper, and ended on his current SH style.
On April 12 2015 19:46 nimdil wrote: Tier 1 IPL 5 - 1st MLG Fall 2012 - 2nd
Tier 2 MLG Summer Championship 2012 - 1st
<- I don't get it.
player list was what decided what tier a international lan placed where.
For brevity's sake, I only include Top 10 of their race or a player who went on a hot run at the tournament. MLG Summer had: Taeja, Ryung, HerO, Crank, Leenock, Violet, Stephano, First, Oz, MarineKing. If I really stretch I might include Losira/aLive too. That's 10 players top 10 of their race, 12 max. Among those only 2 are challenging for a top 5 spot in best player of the world at that time (Taeja/Leenock).
Now take IPL 5: Polt, Taeja, Crank, San, Creator, HerO, Byun, MMA, Violet, Byul, Symbol, Leenock, Bomber, Yoda, Naniwa, Stephano, Vortix, Lucifron, Nerchio, Seed, MC, Squirtle, Life, DRG, Hyun, Sniper, Ryung, Bogus. Those are what I consider notable. Now you start looking at context. San could beat anyone online, but couldnt beat anyone offline, so I take him off. Byul's skill was fairly high, but he never proved it in team league, he's off. Lucifron/Vortix/Nerchio are around the top 10 mark for their races at that time (it was the height of their careers). Crank had fallen off, he's out.
That is about 25 players worth noting. At least 22 are in the top 10 or higher of their race. 3 of them were in their peaks. In terms of top 5 spots you have Life, Taeja, Polt, Leenock, Bomber, Creator all who had very real claims on said spots. You even have players at their extreme peaks (Hyun, Sniper, Ryung, Bogus) who were running Top 4 GSL. Among the top tier players that are missing from that time, I think the list is only missing Mvp, Rain, Parting. This is easily the single hardest international lan to have ever been run.
On April 12 2015 04:30 KalWarkov wrote: i have a problem. i have 12 players left for 10 spots :O
Zest Nestea Innovation sOs Bomber Taeja Polt Parting MMA MC Life MVP
Hint: three of those aren't in the Top 10
As we see from Zealously post, three players here are guessed wrong, which perfectly fits in my ranking, with exclusion of sOs, Bomber and Parting and addition of Rain.
Now with reasoning. As it seems from the ranking, wins in Korea plays a huge part in the player's position as well as consistensy. As for impact made on the game and dominating form - about this I cannot be sure, since missed quite a lot of Starcraft, especially in 2012 and 2014. Also, why I've excluded Bomber and Parting: Bomber - most of the victories are in NA, only one korean title is GSL Code A somwhere in early 2011, so for reasons, mentioned above, I left him aside. With Parting it was a bit harder. Yes, he is very consistent player and have Nestea award. But in the rankings we already have a Nestea award winner - DRG, who actually have a GSL championship under his belt. So I decided, that titles mean a little more than mere consistency, and left Parting out of the top, since he lacks any korean Premier win.
So, lets go down by the ranking. 10. Polt - Super Tournament champion, quite consistent player with multiple victories all over the world, no big slumps. What differs him from Bomber, who is out of the list? Super Tournament victory and the fact, that Bomber was falling out of radar more, in my opinion. 9. Rain - consistency (9 code S of 10 GSL participations) and 2 Korean championships (even if we count OSL 1 as "easier" tournament sue to recently switched Kespa pros, which I won't buy since in the playoffs Rain crushed trough ESF players such as MKP, Parting and DRG). [...] Rain - see above. In comparison to Soulkey they seem quite similar - both came with Kespa (though Rain did succeeded a bit earlier), both consistent and deadly. But I'll put Rain a bit above due to 2 korean championships (in the finals of one he also did beat Soulkey), why Soulkey has 1. Also other results seem a bit higher for the Rain as well. Stephano - damn, if he make it to the top10, then I made a major fuckup in my calculations. Don't get me wrong, I like Stephano, alwasy loocked up at him as a foreigner hope until he retired, and yes, he have 4 premier wins, but to put him at top 10 GOAT list? Don't think so. Period of his dominance was a little bigger than a year, and he never made it deep in Korea. His wins were all international tourneys, and despite beating some good Koreans there, I doubt we may consider him such a great player. Top 15 maybe, but not top 10, so I'll leave him out of my calculations Still, I would be happy to see him, though it will prove me dead wrong.
So now we have 4 names 2 of which had to go and 2 names 1 of which we need to add. Bomber Polt Innovation Parting
Soulkey Rain
We may divide these players into ESF and Kespa groups. Bomber, Polt and Parting being here almost from the start and being consistent throughout the years, all of them didn't get much on the homeground (with the exception of Polt's ST championship). But Parting continued to play in Korea, remaing consistently strong and sometimes being on the verge of winning, but never made it in Korea. His victories on WCG and WCS were, well, fairly easy, and Homestory X and Red Bull can't be compared to actual Korean tournaments. Still he got 3 2nd places, and may be I've really underestimated Parting due to his lack of actual wins. Polt and Bomber are the same in many regards, but I consider Polt as more stable player +his ST win.
As for Kespa (Soulkey, Innovation, Rain) - as I know sure, at least one of them should be in and one of them not. From these 3 I consider Soulkey as the weakest one at least in terms of results. Inno and Rain seems quite similar in terms of results, perfromance and impact on the game and I don't think that one of them will be in, and one will not.
So it leaves us with Rain in and either Bomber and Polt or Bomber and Parting out.
I still don't get why you put in Rain. Really. Why not going with FlaSh then ? He also did qualify quite a bit for GSL, he did VERY well in Proleague, won IEM over Zest, lost IEM to Life... Just listing that FlaSh deserve more to be in that list than Rain.
And let's be serious : Rain, marking SCII history over Bomber or Polt or Parting ? Come on. Just be realistic man.
On April 12 2015 20:26 SkrollK wrote: I still don't get why you put in Rain. Really. Why not going with FlaSh then ? He also did qualify quite a bit for GSL, he did VERY well in Proleague, won IEM over Zest, lost IEM to Life... Just listing that FlaSh deserve more to be in that list than Rain.
And let's be serious : Rain, marking SCII history over Bomber or Polt or Parting ? Come on. Just be realistic man.
EDIT : sry for the quote fuck up
Well, I made my analysis based on Zealously words. Polt, Bomber, Inno, Parting - 2 of them won't be here. Rain, Soulkey (or probably Stephano) - 1 of them will be. Based on this I made my choices. Flash has shown much less consistency due to often falling to code A and never even close to win Korean premier. IEM is good, but I would rank it below Hot6ix or OSL at any given day, mostly due to the fact that on OSL people qualified directly and Hot6ix was compilation of GSL/OSL champions and runner-ups, while IEM was international(so online qualis and a lot of foreigners and 2nd tier Koreans) and with a lot of invites.
On April 12 2015 20:43 Ardias wrote: Well, I made my analysis based on Zealously words. Polt, Bomber, Inno, Parting - 2 of them won't be here. Rain, Soulkey (or probably Stephano) - 1 of them will be. Based on this I made my choices. Flash has shown much less consistency due to often falling to code A and never even close to win Korean premier. IEM is good, but I would rank it below Hot6ix or OSL at any given day, mostly due to the fact that on OSL people qualified directly and Hot6ix was compilation of GSL/OSL champions and runner-ups, while IEM was international(so online qualis and a lot of foreigners and 2nd tier Koreans) and with a lot of invites.
Well, I totally agree with you on that point. Tho I don't see Rain going in that list The point was that I don't see how Rain marked the history of SCII, just as the other players in that list did.
I'd rather see SoulKey, even if it's toatlly subjective there
On April 12 2015 19:18 Ardias wrote: Actually, I want to put a little bit more analysis in my rankings
10. Polt 9. Rain 8. Innovation 7. Nestea 6. Zest 5. MMA 4. MC 3. Taeja 2. Mvp 1. Life
On April 12 2015 04:31 Zealously wrote:
On April 12 2015 04:30 KalWarkov wrote: i have a problem. i have 12 players left for 10 spots :O
Zest Nestea Innovation sOs Bomber Taeja Polt Parting MMA MC Life MVP
Hint: three of those aren't in the Top 10
As we see from Zealously post, three players here are guessed wrong, which perfectly fits in my ranking, with exclusion of sOs, Bomber and Parting and addition of Rain.
Now with reasoning. As it seems from the ranking, wins in Korea plays a huge part in the player's position as well as consistensy. As for impact made on the game and dominating form - about this I cannot be sure, since missed quite a lot of Starcraft, especially in 2012 and 2014. Also, why I've excluded Bomber and Parting: Bomber - most of the victories are in NA, only one korean title is GSL Code A somwhere in early 2011, so for reasons, mentioned above, I left him aside. With Parting it was a bit harder. Yes, he is very consistent player and have Nestea award. But in the rankings we already have a Nestea award winner - DRG, who actually have a GSL championship under his belt. So I decided, that titles mean a little more than mere consistency, and left Parting out of the top, since he lacks any korean Premier win.
So, lets go down by the ranking. 10. Polt - Super Tournament champion, quite consistent player with multiple victories all over the world, no big slumps. What differs him from Bomber, who is out of the list? Super Tournament victory and the fact, that Bomber was falling out of radar more, in my opinion. 9. Rain - consistency (9 code S of 10 GSL participations) and 2 Korean championships (even if we count OSL 1 as "easier" tournament sue to recently switched Kespa pros, which I won't buy since in the playoffs Rain crushed trough ESF players such as MKP, Parting and DRG). [...] Rain - see above. In comparison to Soulkey they seem quite similar - both came with Kespa (though Rain did succeeded a bit earlier), both consistent and deadly. But I'll put Rain a bit above due to 2 korean championships (in the finals of one he also did beat Soulkey), why Soulkey has 1. Also other results seem a bit higher for the Rain as well. Stephano - damn, if he make it to the top10, then I made a major fuckup in my calculations. Don't get me wrong, I like Stephano, alwasy loocked up at him as a foreigner hope until he retired, and yes, he have 4 premier wins, but to put him at top 10 GOAT list? Don't think so. Period of his dominance was a little bigger than a year, and he never made it deep in Korea. His wins were all international tourneys, and despite beating some good Koreans there, I doubt we may consider him such a great player. Top 15 maybe, but not top 10, so I'll leave him out of my calculations Still, I would be happy to see him, though it will prove me dead wrong.
So now we have 4 names 2 of which had to go and 2 names 1 of which we need to add. Bomber Polt Innovation Parting
Soulkey Rain
We may divide these players into ESF and Kespa groups. Bomber, Polt and Parting being here almost from the start and being consistent throughout the years, all of them didn't get much on the homeground (with the exception of Polt's ST championship). But Parting continued to play in Korea, remaing consistently strong and sometimes being on the verge of winning, but never made it in Korea. His victories on WCG and WCS were, well, fairly easy, and Homestory X and Red Bull can't be compared to actual Korean tournaments. Still he got 3 2nd places, and may be I've really underestimated Parting due to his lack of actual wins. Polt and Bomber are the same in many regards, but I consider Polt as more stable player +his ST win.
As for Kespa (Soulkey, Innovation, Rain) - as I know sure, at least one of them should be in and one of them not. From these 3 I consider Soulkey as the weakest one at least in terms of results. Inno and Rain seems quite similar in terms of results, perfromance and impact on the game and I don't think that one of them will be in, and one will not.
So it leaves us with Rain in and either Bomber and Polt or Bomber and Parting out.
I still don't get why you put in Rain. Really. Why not going with FlaSh then ? He also did qualify quite a bit for GSL, he did VERY well in Proleague, won IEM over Zest, lost IEM to Life... Just listing that FlaSh deserve more to be in that list than Rain.
And let's be serious : Rain, marking SCII history over Bomber or Polt or Parting ? Come on. Just be realistic man.
EDIT : sry for the quote fuck up
The first few months after KeSPA swapped over, Rain looked nearly unstoppable. He was pretty consistent for a while after that. I dunno that Flash has ever had that level of dominance.
That said, Polt, Bomber and PartinG I would certainly put ahead of Rain.
He has also earned the 2nd most money of any Protoss player aside from MC, yet his results are far more impressive than MC's since 2012.
1. Life 2. Mvp 3. Parting 4. MC 5. Polt 6. Taeja 7. MMA 8. Innovation 9. Zest 10. sOs
Seeing as how sOs is #16 in stuchiu's list, who would you replace him with?
My bad didn't read the last part. Nestea I guess even though it's more nostalgia talking, but I guess he was pretty inventive and did a lot of work for Zerg early on and he is including creativity and meta game shifts as reasons for rankings.
@Sharkie, sure MC won 2 GSL's but he was in how many GSL's total, never strung together more then a handful in a row. Parting got a Nestea award and has been in like 18 GSL's, plus he has been competing with the best of the best in Korea since 2012. MC made a fortune off beating up on foreigners and Code A level Koreans for the last few years.
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
I might have put MarineKing in the top 10 by virtue of the fact that SC2 has seemed so thoroughly inconsistent and yet MarineKing managed to achieve results for so long. But since players like DRG and soO have been placed already I guess #11 could end up being reasonable. Interested to see what the rest of the list will look like.
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
I am always surprised at people placing MC at so high up, sure he is one of the best players but his styles are mostly lacking and purely 2 base all in. unlike parting who has refined his play so well that he can play macro just as well as his close to perfectly executed soul train.
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
i am pretty sure destiny isn't the first to go mass infestors, I think it was spanishiwa who also invented the gasless queen heavy style which was ahead of its time, and it took a few months until koreans also took it up.
On April 12 2015 23:43 BisuDagger wrote: Has fruitdealer been mentioned once in all these pages? 1. Fruitdealer 2. Moustache taeja 3. Pirate taeja 4-10. Taeja
MVP, Life, LiquidTaeja, MC, MMA - probably the top 5
Polt, Innovation, Zest, Parting, Nestea, Bomber - 5 of 6 complete the top 10
Now with the hints: Zest (in the picture) - is in. Polt, Innovation, Parting, Nestea, Bomber - 3 of 5 complete the top 16
So: A. two of: Polt, Innovation, Parting, Nestea, Bomber - aren't in the TOP 16. B. one of Rain, Soulkey, Stephano, herO, LiquidHero, etc, is on the top 10.
B - my guess based on "feeling" is LiquidHero. A is tougher. Without doing the research and not understanding completely the criteria used, any choice just feels wrong. So my final guess:
6 to 10: Nestea, Polt, Parting, Zest, LiquidHero.
(BOMBER NOOOOOOOOO.... Bogus... sniff... maybe no Nestea top 16?, Parting? Polt???? AAAAAAAAAAAAAA)
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
So what ingenious alternate way do you have to compare Mvp in his prime to current Life? You're basically saying Mvp in his prime is so far inferior to current top players he would not be relevant, you have nothing to prove that. Nobody does. So naturally stuchiu uses the respective time period. And you can't even try to argue that people like herO or Zest are above a man like Mvp who has won 4 GSL titles, one of them with severe wrist issues and cervical kyphosis.
The bolded part is hopefully a joke. It's a joke, right?
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears.
MMA, Mvp or Life has to be Number 1. It has to be one of these 3 otherwise i'm calling a hoax. And even though this is on Liquid then Taeja should be in 10-6 and not 5-1 due to the lack of GSL championships
Stuchiu will put someone else number one. Who was really important and evil?
I just put hyvaa because he's the guy who goes toe-to-toe in macro with MMA, Rain, INnoVation and First and then still cheeses Fantasy 3 games in a row to eliminate him from GSL.
I couldn't begin to guess how Stuchiu will rank them and I already disagree a bit with the first part of his ranking, so I guess I'll throw out what I think it should be. My personal criteria would be overall longevity and consistency as most important with more recent results trumping past history, level of dominance playing a role, and a nod to innovation. I don't like too much of an emphasis solely on the number of gold medals.
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears.
Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then.
Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on.
My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective.
If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer.
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears.
Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then.
Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on.
My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective.
If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer.
On April 13 2015 00:54 arcane1129 wrote: I couldn't begin to guess how Stuchiu will rank them and I already disagree a bit with the first part of his ranking, so I guess I'll throw out what I think it should be. My personal criteria would be overall longevity and consistency as most important with more recent results trumping past history, level of dominance playing a role, and a nod to innovation. I don't like too much of an emphasis solely on the number of gold medals.
On April 13 2015 00:54 arcane1129 wrote: I couldn't begin to guess how Stuchiu will rank them and I already disagree a bit with the first part of his ranking, so I guess I'll throw out what I think it should be. My personal criteria would be overall longevity and consistency as most important with more recent results trumping past history, level of dominance playing a role, and a nod to innovation. I don't like too much of an emphasis solely on the number of gold medals.
innovation is less consistent than Polt, MC, MMA, herO, Zest, Parting, Bomber, soO, Rain and Maru.
At any point in time have you considered innovation not a top 5 terran or even top 10 overall player? He's probably far and away the best team league player for the past 2 years, had one of the most dominating periods of any player stats-wise, and both older and recent gold medals at the highest level of competition.
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears.
Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then.
Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on.
My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective.
If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer.
Given that I think greatness is more than just results (there's a reason Boxer/Yellow are still considered some of the greatest to have ever played in Korea still), we just have a fundamental difference in what we think greatness constitutes.
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
So what ingenious alternate way do you have to compare Mvp in his prime to current Life? You're basically saying Mvp in his prime is so far inferior to current top players he would not be relevant, you have nothing to prove that. Nobody does. So naturally stuchiu uses the respective time period. And you can't even try to argue that people like herO or Zest are above a man like Mvp who has won 4 GSL titles, one of them with severe wrist issues and cervical kyphosis.
The bolded part is hopefully a joke. It's a joke, right?
Bolded part is partially a joke directed at the weight put on innovation.
Mvp won 4 Gsl titles. Great. That's all we care about? Not about the context? Fruitdealer has a GSL win and Parting doesn't. That's it case closed, Fruitdealer is a greater player than Parting?
Being a runner up in 2015 Gsl is surely a greater achievement than winning a gsl in 2010 or 2011
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears.
Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then.
Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on.
My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective.
If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer.
Given that I think greatness is more than just results (there's a reason Boxer/Yellow are still considered some of the greatest to have ever played in Korea still), we just have a fundamental difference in what we think greatness constitutes.
well thats just it isn't it, there is not concrete full proof way to measure success and therefore no full proof way to decide GOAT. Therefore you may have a great argument for your ranking (and I am sure you do) but there will still be naysayers because reasons.
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears.
Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then.
Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on.
My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective.
If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer.
Given that I think greatness is more than just results (there's a reason Boxer/Yellow are still considered some of the greatest to have ever played in Korea still), we just have a fundamental difference in what we think greatness constitutes.
btw the article itself is well written and I enjoyed reading it.
On April 13 2015 00:54 arcane1129 wrote: I couldn't begin to guess how Stuchiu will rank them and I already disagree a bit with the first part of his ranking, so I guess I'll throw out what I think it should be. My personal criteria would be overall longevity and consistency as most important with more recent results trumping past history, level of dominance playing a role, and a nod to innovation. I don't like too much of an emphasis solely on the number of gold medals.
innovation is less consistent than Polt, MC, MMA, herO, Zest, Parting, Bomber, soO, Rain and Maru.
At any point in time have you considered innovation not a top 5 terran or even top 10 overall player? He's probably far and away the best team league player for the past 2 years, had one of the most dominating periods of any player stats-wise, and both older and recent gold medals.
Innovation dropped off for the latter half of 2013 and both early seasons of 2014. Maru won OSL over Inno, got 5 top 4s in Korean/Blizzcon lans, still got a ro8, did worse in the 2014 S3, but won SSL and got second at IEM Taipei, whereas inno got dropped in ro8 gsl/ro8 IEM WC and ro32 in SSL. By your own criteria Maru > Innovation.
And his team league results you mean proleague? Maru is 9-5, Inno is 8-3.
Maru has been Top 3 for his race since his OSL in 2013. He hasn't let it go from then to now.
Basically by your own criteria, Maru is far superior to Innovation. Well, it takes too long to do the rest, but thats a fundamental issue I saw in your list.
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears.
Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then.
Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on.
My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective.
If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer.
I don't think a GSL win today should have more value than a GSL win in 2011. Saying the level of play is higher today is subjective; you could also argue that it was harder in 2011 to win the GSL because the meta wasn't figured out as much and you had to be more innovative to be succesful.
the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats
So this is a "greatest of all time" list, but you're judging the players within their respective time period. How does that work? That means they aren't the "greatest of all time". Mvp maybe greatest in 2011. 2012-2013 he's not that relevant and onward he's irrelevant. Top players right now (like Life) are at the highest level of SC2 we have ever seen and they are at a level way above people like Nestea, Mvp, MKP, and leenock ever were.
We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
A lot of players contribute to innovating the meta. Give destiny a GOAT award or an acknowledgement for innovating with mass infestors?
If you can convince me that Hyuk, Action, Calm, Modesty Rush, Last, Hiya, Horang2 are better than Boxer, oov, Savior, July, Yellow, Nada when it comes down to all time, then go ahead. I'm all ears.
Here is my thought process. This is a GOAT list written in 2015. As you go farther back in time, you depreciate the value of a player's accomplishment. A GSL win in 2014 is more valuable than a GSL win in 2011 because standards have risen so high since then.
Boxer's gameplay in 2001 look like child's play compared to 2005 when July was on a roll. In other words, BoxeR won during a time when people didn't know what they were doing ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR ), all around 2001. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Nada, saviOr, or July on a bw GOAT list, but Boxer and Yellow? Come on.
My original statement was directly targeted at people with "Mvp is the best" goggles and to ask them to take some perspective.
If you made a BW GOAT list, who would be closer to #1. Flash, Nada, or Boxer? I view Flash's gameplay as the pinnacle of Terran play, and one of the top scbw play, a feat not touched by Nada or Boxer.
Given that I think greatness is more than just results (there's a reason Boxer/Yellow are still considered some of the greatest to have ever played in Korea still), we just have a fundamental difference in what we think greatness constitutes.
btw the article itself is well written and I enjoyed reading it.
It all depends on how much you value foreign tournaments wins. You can argue Taeja, Polt and MC to be either top5 or not even top10 if you argue foreign tournaments are "easy".
First two, no discussion. Next, MMA had proper Korean success, Polt had one good run in Korea but that's it, Taeja no Korean results but solo carried the entire team in teamleagues and obviously won an insane amount of foreign tournaments. The last four I have no idea, it's hard to compare them. Innovation had by far the most impressive peak, but he couldn't keep it up. Parting is always around with his silly allins. Zest had a strong streak, but he's relatively "new". Nestea is a hero.
On April 13 2015 01:12 mechengineer123 wrote: It all depends on how much you value foreign tournaments wins. You can argue Taeja, Polt and MC to be either top5 or not even top10 if you argue foreign tournaments are "easy".
First two, no discussion. Next, MMA had proper Korean success, Polt had one good run in Korea but that's it, Taeja no Korean results but solo carried the entire team in teamleagues and obviously won an insane amount of foreign tournaments. The last four I have no idea, it's hard to compare them. Innovation had by far the most impressive peak, but he couldn't keep it up. Parting is always around with his silly allins. Zest had a strong streak, but he's relatively "new". Nestea is a hero.
MMA won a GSL where the Ro32 had 20 terrans and the Ro8 had 6. Taeja made the semifinals twice during a period where Terran was doing terribly. Saying 'no results' is a putting it far too strongly.
On April 13 2015 00:54 arcane1129 wrote: I couldn't begin to guess how Stuchiu will rank them and I already disagree a bit with the first part of his ranking, so I guess I'll throw out what I think it should be. My personal criteria would be overall longevity and consistency as most important with more recent results trumping past history, level of dominance playing a role, and a nod to innovation. I don't like too much of an emphasis solely on the number of gold medals.
innovation is less consistent than Polt, MC, MMA, herO, Zest, Parting, Bomber, soO, Rain and Maru.
At any point in time have you considered innovation not a top 5 terran or even top 10 overall player? He's probably far and away the best team league player for the past 2 years, had one of the most dominating periods of any player stats-wise, and both older and recent gold medals.
Innovation dropped off for the latter half of 2013 and both early seasons of 2014. Maru won OSL over Inno, got 5 top 4s in Korean/Blizzcon lans, still got a ro8, did worse in the 2014 S3, but won SSL and got second at IEM Taipei, whereas inno got dropped in ro8 gsl/ro8 IEM WC and ro32 in SSL. By your own criteria Maru > Innovation.
And his team league results you mean proleague? Maru is 9-5, Inno is 8-3.
Maru has been Top 3 for his race since his OSL in 2013. He hasn't let it go from then to now.
Basically by your own criteria, Maru is far superior to Innovation. Well, it takes too long to do the rest, but thats a fundamental issue I saw in your list.
You're probably right that by my criteria I should move Maru up from where I have him (I just threw my list together in a matter of a couple of minutes without putting in the research you have). However, I'm not talking about just this current proleague. Innovation has done incredibly well in the past seasons as well (and STX won of course with Inno at the helm) and he dominated the ATC during his "slump." Innovation was also considered by many to the best terran at the end of WOL.
Maru has also been notorious for doing poorly in KR qualifiers for the past couple of years, which are often just as stacked as any GSL, and Inno has a flew of other achievements you didn't mention (check the trophy case for anyone reading http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/players/663_INnoVation). His stats are also quite a bit better in 2/3 matchups. I can't reasonably understand Inno being any less than 8th or so using ANY set of criteria, and I'm still certain that using my criteria he belongs far above Maru at least for now.
That said I could easily see Maru moving far up the ranks in the next 1-2 years if he keeps it up.
^That said I figure I should add that I appreciate the work put in and enjoyed reading it and the discussion it promotes regardless of ranking, so thanks Stuchiu.
I love these articles. Greatness isn't something one can measure and it isn't just about wins, which leads to a lot of interesting and amusing discussions haha. Anyway well written article, enjoyed reading it
On April 13 2015 00:54 arcane1129 wrote: I couldn't begin to guess how Stuchiu will rank them and I already disagree a bit with the first part of his ranking, so I guess I'll throw out what I think it should be. My personal criteria would be overall longevity and consistency as most important with more recent results trumping past history, level of dominance playing a role, and a nod to innovation. I don't like too much of an emphasis solely on the number of gold medals.
innovation is less consistent than Polt, MC, MMA, herO, Zest, Parting, Bomber, soO, Rain and Maru.
At any point in time have you considered innovation not a top 5 terran or even top 10 overall player? He's probably far and away the best team league player for the past 2 years, had one of the most dominating periods of any player stats-wise, and both older and recent gold medals.
Innovation dropped off for the latter half of 2013 and both early seasons of 2014. Maru won OSL over Inno, got 5 top 4s in Korean/Blizzcon lans, still got a ro8, did worse in the 2014 S3, but won SSL and got second at IEM Taipei, whereas inno got dropped in ro8 gsl/ro8 IEM WC and ro32 in SSL. By your own criteria Maru > Innovation.
And his team league results you mean proleague? Maru is 9-5, Inno is 8-3.
Maru has been Top 3 for his race since his OSL in 2013. He hasn't let it go from then to now.
Basically by your own criteria, Maru is far superior to Innovation. Well, it takes too long to do the rest, but thats a fundamental issue I saw in your list.
You're probably right that by my criteria I should move Maru up from where I have him (I just threw my list together in a matter of a couple of minutes without putting in the research you have). However, I'm not talking about just this current proleague. Innovation has done incredibly well in the past seasons as well (and STX won of course with Inno at the helm) and he dominated the ATC during his "slump." Innovation was also considered by many to the best terran at the end of WOL.
Maru has also been notorious for doing poorly in KR qualifiers for the past couple of years, which are often just as stacked as any GSL, and Inno has a flew of other achievements you didn't mention (check the trophy case for anyone reading http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/players/663_INnoVation). His stats are also quite a bit better in 2/3 matchups. I can't reasonably understand Inno being any less than 8th or so using ANY set of criteria, and I'm still certain that using my criteria he belongs far above Maru at least for now.
That said I could easily see Maru moving far up the ranks in the next 1-2 years if he keeps it up.
I only focused on things I considered important, offline premier events. If you start counting qualifiers/online events you may have to throw up Gumiho on the list for winning 37 leifeng cups against Code S/ode A player or something. San beat every player in 2012 in qualifiers put couldn't stick 2 wins together at the real thing. When you star including online events, it gets murky real quick.
And as you said consistency with more relevance to recent results. Maru has been more consistent in the recent results.
On April 13 2015 01:26 arcane1129 wrote: ^That said I figure I should add that I appreciate the work put in and enjoyed reading it and the discussion it promotes regardless of ranking, so thanks Stuchiu.
On April 13 2015 00:54 arcane1129 wrote: I couldn't begin to guess how Stuchiu will rank them and I already disagree a bit with the first part of his ranking, so I guess I'll throw out what I think it should be. My personal criteria would be overall longevity and consistency as most important with more recent results trumping past history, level of dominance playing a role, and a nod to innovation. I don't like too much of an emphasis solely on the number of gold medals.
innovation is less consistent than Polt, MC, MMA, herO, Zest, Parting, Bomber, soO, Rain and Maru.
At any point in time have you considered innovation not a top 5 terran or even top 10 overall player? He's probably far and away the best team league player for the past 2 years, had one of the most dominating periods of any player stats-wise, and both older and recent gold medals.
Innovation dropped off for the latter half of 2013 and both early seasons of 2014. Maru won OSL over Inno, got 5 top 4s in Korean/Blizzcon lans, still got a ro8, did worse in the 2014 S3, but won SSL and got second at IEM Taipei, whereas inno got dropped in ro8 gsl/ro8 IEM WC and ro32 in SSL. By your own criteria Maru > Innovation.
And his team league results you mean proleague? Maru is 9-5, Inno is 8-3.
Maru has been Top 3 for his race since his OSL in 2013. He hasn't let it go from then to now.
Basically by your own criteria, Maru is far superior to Innovation. Well, it takes too long to do the rest, but thats a fundamental issue I saw in your list.
You're probably right that by my criteria I should move Maru up from where I have him (I just threw my list together in a matter of a couple of minutes without putting in the research you have). However, I'm not talking about just this current proleague. Innovation has done incredibly well in the past seasons as well (and STX won of course with Inno at the helm) and he dominated the ATC during his "slump." Innovation was also considered by many to the best terran at the end of WOL.
Maru has also been notorious for doing poorly in KR qualifiers for the past couple of years, which are often just as stacked as any GSL, and Inno has a flew of other achievements you didn't mention (check the trophy case for anyone reading http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/players/663_INnoVation). His stats are also quite a bit better in 2/3 matchups. I can't reasonably understand Inno being any less than 8th or so using ANY set of criteria, and I'm still certain that using my criteria he belongs far above Maru at least for now.
That said I could easily see Maru moving far up the ranks in the next 1-2 years if he keeps it up.
I only focused on things I considered important, offline premier events. If you start counting qualifiers/online events you may have to throw up Gumiho on the list for winning 37 leifeng cups against Code S/ode A player or something. San beat every player in 2012 in qualifiers put couldn't stick 2 wins together at the real thing. When you star including online events, it gets murky real quick.
And as you said consistency with more relevance to recent results. Maru has been more consistent in the recent results.
For sure, when it comes online events I tend to predict the opposite of what I might predict in offline events. It is really strange.
On April 13 2015 02:04 damoonwolf wrote: MarineKing before Maru??? Some people still belive this?
I say screw them both, but I can kinda believe MKP over Maru
Kinda agree there. But if Maru just goes 2015 the way he did the past 6 months, you do the same ranking next year, he'd just go at least 5 places higher.
On April 13 2015 02:04 damoonwolf wrote: MarineKing before Maru??? Some people still belive this?
3 gsl finals + code a final + hot6ix cup final + 3 mlg finals of which he won 2 vs 1 OSL, 1 SSL win and one IEM final edit: i even think MK should be higher on this list
On April 13 2015 02:04 damoonwolf wrote: MarineKing before Maru??? Some people still belive this?
I say screw them both, but I can kinda believe MKP over Maru
Kinda agree there. But if Maru just goes 2015 the way he did the past 6 months, you do the same ranking next year, he'd just go at least 5 places higher.
perhaps not that high but yes that would be impressive
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
It had its thread, up until the point that the circlejerk was pointless and meaningless
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
On April 13 2015 02:04 damoonwolf wrote: MarineKing before Maru??? Some people still belive this?
3 gsl finals + code a final + hot6ix cup final + 3 mlg finals of which he won 2 vs 1 OSL, 1 SSL win and one IEM final edit: i even think MK should be higher on this list
Also while MK was beast for a time in GSTL, Maru was powerhouse in Proleague. Also Maru was a terran powerhouse while other terrans were failing all around - kind of like MC was a protoss beast while there were no other protoss consistently strong around. It's not exactly obvious to put a bunch of second places and 2 MLGs over 2 actual korean starleagues.
On April 13 2015 03:28 Wampa181st wrote: I'm really excited to see if puma shows up on this list
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
I think you might be drinking a bit too much of the Kool-Aid if you believe that TL is part of some grand conspiracy to keep match fixing hush hush when they helped bring it to light when it happened in BW.
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.
The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.
The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.
I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.
The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.
I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!
I mean, I guess those are good ways to keep a "discussion" going. :3
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Please bring any further thoughts on this subject to Website Feedback. I will be happy to address your thoughts there.
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.
The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.
I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!
I mean, I guess those are good ways to keep a "discussion" going. :3
No actually he used a straw man. I can tell you about lots of threads on TL that have not much direction and heated internet arguments. That doesn't necessarily mean a discussion should not be happening, considering it's an exaggeration to say that every post was a circle jerk.
How can MKF be #11 in front of soO 4 times GSL finalist in a row i'm going to say it again 4 GSLs final in a row. And don't bring me his MLG runs, Dear back to back GSL WCS was far more impressive and he isn't top 10 i can bet you that. MKF is by far the most overrated player of all time, he has less premiers than many foreigner and his GSL "run" are just terrible he beat a bunch of nobody just by controling his units better and all ining more on stepp of war. Also MVP has 3 GSL not four and MKF two finals one looking foolish and MVP bitch GSL World championship was less of a GSL than IPL 5 by far
Of course the era matters if not Chamberlain and his 50points/game would be consider the greatest ever.
Maru should be higher I don't know were nestea is but Maru should be around that level, way above "no GSL no skill" Taeja (shots fired)
On April 13 2015 06:34 Philozovic wrote: How can MKF be #11 in front of soO 4 times GSL finalist in a row i'm going to say it again 4 GSLs final in a row. And don't bring me his MLG runs, Dear back to back GSL WCS was far more impressive and he isn't top 10 i can bet you that. MKF is by far the most overrated player of all time, he has less premiers than many foreigner and his GSL "run" are just terrible he beat a bunch of nobody just by controling his units better and all ining more on stepp of war. Also MVP has 3 GSL not four and MKF two finals one looking foolish and MVP bitch GSL World championship was less of a GSL than IPL 5 by far
Of course the era matters if not Chamberlain and his 50points/game would be consider the greatest ever.
Maru should be higher I don't know were nestea is but Maru should be around that level, way above "no GSL no skill" Taeja
I agree with Leenock and DRG though
Saying that TaeJa is "no skill" player is so unfair - it's just different skill to win GSL and to win weekend tournament. NesTea never excelled in the latter, TaeJa in the former.
On April 13 2015 06:34 Philozovic wrote: How can MKF be #11 in front of soO 4 times GSL finalist in a row i'm going to say it again 4 GSLs final in a row. And don't bring me his MLG runs, Dear back to back GSL WCS was far more impressive and he isn't top 10 i can bet you that. MKF is by far the most overrated player of all time, he has less premiers than many foreigner and his GSL "run" are just terrible he beat a bunch of nobody just by controling his units better and all ining more on stepp of war. Also MVP has 3 GSL not four and MKF two finals one looking foolish and MVP bitch GSL World championship was less of a GSL than IPL 5 by far
Of course the era matters if not Chamberlain and his 50points/game would be consider the greatest ever.
Maru should be higher I don't know were nestea is but Maru should be around that level, way above "no GSL no skill" Taeja
I agree with Leenock and DRG though
Saying that TaeJa is "no skill" player is so unfair - it's just different skill to win GSL and to win weekend tournament. NesTea never excelled in the latter, TaeJa in the former.
I should have put a shot fired tag sorry of course Taeja is great top 5 izi, probably #3 behind mvp (had he won 1 GSL I would have put him above mvp) and life so many premiers wins, series wins over the greatest players and a lot of ro8/ro4 GSL runs but no WCS no GSL should put him behind life and mvp
On April 13 2015 06:34 Philozovic wrote: How can MKF be #11 in front of soO 4 times GSL finalist in a row i'm going to say it again 4 GSLs final in a row. And don't bring me his MLG runs, Dear back to back GSL WCS was far more impressive and he isn't top 10 i can bet you that. MKF is by far the most overrated player of all time, he has less premiers than many foreigner and his GSL "run" are just terrible he beat a bunch of nobody just by controling his units better and all ining more on stepp of war. Also MVP has 3 GSL not four and MKF two finals one looking foolish and MVP bitch GSL World championship was less of a GSL than IPL 5 by far
Of course the era matters if not Chamberlain and his 50points/game would be consider the greatest ever.
Maru should be higher I don't know were nestea is but Maru should be around that level, way above "no GSL no skill" Taeja
I agree with Leenock and DRG though
Saying that TaeJa is "no skill" player is so unfair - it's just different skill to win GSL and to win weekend tournament. NesTea never excelled in the latter, TaeJa in the former.
it's not even like taeja ever did badly in gsl. he jsut didn't make it all the way and almost always went out agaisnt the eventual winner of the tournament.
in their hate for liquid bias people just want to overlook how great a player taeja is/was. for 3 years he consistently beat the top of the top, and more often than not he beat them decisively. only very few players like Life or piggod even have a positive winrate against taeja. denying that he is one of the three overall best players of the world and one of the most accomplished is jsut foolish.
On April 13 2015 06:34 Philozovic wrote: How can MKF be #11 in front of soO 4 times GSL finalist in a row i'm going to say it again 4 GSLs final in a row. And don't bring me his MLG runs, Dear back to back GSL WCS was far more impressive and he isn't top 10 i can bet you that. MKF is by far the most overrated player of all time, he has less premiers than many foreigner and his GSL "run" are just terrible he beat a bunch of nobody just by controling his units better and all ining more on stepp of war. Also MVP has 3 GSL not four and MKF two finals one looking foolish and MVP bitch GSL World championship was less of a GSL than IPL 5 by far
Of course the era matters if not Chamberlain and his 50points/game would be consider the greatest ever.
Maru should be higher I don't know were nestea is but Maru should be around that level, way above "no GSL no skill" Taeja
I agree with Leenock and DRG though
Saying that TaeJa is "no skill" player is so unfair - it's just different skill to win GSL and to win weekend tournament. NesTea never excelled in the latter, TaeJa in the former.
it's not even like taeja ever did badly in gsl. he jsut didn't make it all the way and almost always went out agaisnt the eventual winner of the tournament.
in their hate for liquid bias people just want to overlook how great a player taeja is/was. for 3 years he consistently beat the top of the top, and more often than not he beat them decisively. only very few players like Life or piggod even have a positive winrate against taeja. denying that he is one of the three overall best players of the world and one of the most accomplished is jsut foolish.
On April 13 2015 06:34 Philozovic wrote: How can MKF be #11 in front of soO 4 times GSL finalist in a row i'm going to say it again 4 GSLs final in a row. And don't bring me his MLG runs, Dear back to back GSL WCS was far more impressive and he isn't top 10 i can bet you that. MKF is by far the most overrated player of all time, he has less premiers than many foreigner and his GSL "run" are just terrible he beat a bunch of nobody just by controling his units better and all ining more on stepp of war. Also MVP has 3 GSL not four and MKF two finals one looking foolish and MVP bitch GSL World championship was less of a GSL than IPL 5 by far
Of course the era matters if not Chamberlain and his 50points/game would be consider the greatest ever.
Maru should be higher I don't know were nestea is but Maru should be around that level, way above "no GSL no skill" Taeja
I agree with Leenock and DRG though
Saying that TaeJa is "no skill" player is so unfair - it's just different skill to win GSL and to win weekend tournament. NesTea never excelled in the latter, TaeJa in the former.
it's not even like taeja ever did badly in gsl. he jsut didn't make it all the way and almost always went out agaisnt the eventual winner of the tournament.
in their hate for liquid bias people just want to overlook how great a player taeja is/was. for 3 years he consistently beat the top of the top, and more often than not he beat them decisively. only very few players like Life or piggod even have a positive winrate against taeja. denying that he is one of the three overall best players of the world and one of the most accomplished is jsut foolish.
In terms of all time Taeja is 29-20 against Life.
Aren't like dreamertt, Pigbaby and Flash the only players who never lost a series vs TaeJa in an offline tournament? TaeJa has dem solid winrates.
On April 13 2015 06:34 Philozovic wrote: How can MKF be #11 in front of soO 4 times GSL finalist in a row i'm going to say it again 4 GSLs final in a row. And don't bring me his MLG runs, Dear back to back GSL WCS was far more impressive and he isn't top 10 i can bet you that. MKF is by far the most overrated player of all time, he has less premiers than many foreigner and his GSL "run" are just terrible he beat a bunch of nobody just by controling his units better and all ining more on stepp of war. Also MVP has 3 GSL not four and MKF two finals one looking foolish and MVP bitch GSL World championship was less of a GSL than IPL 5 by far
Of course the era matters if not Chamberlain and his 50points/game would be consider the greatest ever.
Maru should be higher I don't know were nestea is but Maru should be around that level, way above "no GSL no skill" Taeja
I agree with Leenock and DRG though
Saying that TaeJa is "no skill" player is so unfair - it's just different skill to win GSL and to win weekend tournament. NesTea never excelled in the latter, TaeJa in the former.
it's not even like taeja ever did badly in gsl. he jsut didn't make it all the way and almost always went out agaisnt the eventual winner of the tournament.
in their hate for liquid bias people just want to overlook how great a player taeja is/was. for 3 years he consistently beat the top of the top, and more often than not he beat them decisively. only very few players like Life or piggod even have a positive winrate against taeja. denying that he is one of the three overall best players of the world and one of the most accomplished is jsut foolish.
In terms of all time Taeja is 29-20 against Life.
Aren't like dreamertt, Pigbaby and Flash the only players who never lost a series vs TaeJa in an offline tournament? TaeJa has dem solid winrates.
So what you're saying is Flash is the Greatest of All Time in SC2 as well.
On April 13 2015 06:34 Philozovic wrote: How can MKF be #11 in front of soO 4 times GSL finalist in a row i'm going to say it again 4 GSLs final in a row. And don't bring me his MLG runs, Dear back to back GSL WCS was far more impressive and he isn't top 10 i can bet you that. MKF is by far the most overrated player of all time, he has less premiers than many foreigner and his GSL "run" are just terrible he beat a bunch of nobody just by controling his units better and all ining more on stepp of war. Also MVP has 3 GSL not four and MKF two finals one looking foolish and MVP bitch GSL World championship was less of a GSL than IPL 5 by far
Of course the era matters if not Chamberlain and his 50points/game would be consider the greatest ever.
Maru should be higher I don't know were nestea is but Maru should be around that level, way above "no GSL no skill" Taeja
I agree with Leenock and DRG though
Saying that TaeJa is "no skill" player is so unfair - it's just different skill to win GSL and to win weekend tournament. NesTea never excelled in the latter, TaeJa in the former.
it's not even like taeja ever did badly in gsl. he jsut didn't make it all the way and almost always went out agaisnt the eventual winner of the tournament.
in their hate for liquid bias people just want to overlook how great a player taeja is/was. for 3 years he consistently beat the top of the top, and more often than not he beat them decisively. only very few players like Life or piggod even have a positive winrate against taeja. denying that he is one of the three overall best players of the world and one of the most accomplished is jsut foolish.
In terms of all time Taeja is 29-20 against Life.
ah, i wasn't sure. i remembered that Life was taeja's kryptonite back in 2012, but taeja won more during life's downtime. i thought recent times might've brought life back to a positive winratio.
On April 13 2015 06:34 Philozovic wrote: How can MKF be #11 in front of soO 4 times GSL finalist in a row i'm going to say it again 4 GSLs final in a row. And don't bring me his MLG runs, Dear back to back GSL WCS was far more impressive and he isn't top 10 i can bet you that. MKF is by far the most overrated player of all time, he has less premiers than many foreigner and his GSL "run" are just terrible he beat a bunch of nobody just by controling his units better and all ining more on stepp of war. Also MVP has 3 GSL not four and MKF two finals one looking foolish and MVP bitch GSL World championship was less of a GSL than IPL 5 by far
Of course the era matters if not Chamberlain and his 50points/game would be consider the greatest ever.
Maru should be higher I don't know were nestea is but Maru should be around that level, way above "no GSL no skill" Taeja
I agree with Leenock and DRG though
Saying that TaeJa is "no skill" player is so unfair - it's just different skill to win GSL and to win weekend tournament. NesTea never excelled in the latter, TaeJa in the former.
it's not even like taeja ever did badly in gsl. he jsut didn't make it all the way and almost always went out agaisnt the eventual winner of the tournament.
in their hate for liquid bias people just want to overlook how great a player taeja is/was. for 3 years he consistently beat the top of the top, and more often than not he beat them decisively. only very few players like Life or piggod even have a positive winrate against taeja. denying that he is one of the three overall best players of the world and one of the most accomplished is jsut foolish.
In terms of all time Taeja is 29-20 against Life.
Aren't like dreamertt, Pigbaby and Flash the only players who never lost a series vs TaeJa in an offline tournament? TaeJa has dem solid winrates.
So what you're saying is Flash is the Greatest of All Time in SC2 as well.
No Flash is the guy you call if TaeJa tries to make a comeback in SC2 from his quasi-retirement and you want to get rid of him .
On April 13 2015 06:34 Philozovic wrote: How can MKF be #11 in front of soO 4 times GSL finalist in a row i'm going to say it again 4 GSLs final in a row. And don't bring me his MLG runs, Dear back to back GSL WCS was far more impressive and he isn't top 10 i can bet you that. MKF is by far the most overrated player of all time, he has less premiers than many foreigner and his GSL "run" are just terrible he beat a bunch of nobody just by controling his units better and all ining more on stepp of war. Also MVP has 3 GSL not four and MKF two finals one looking foolish and MVP bitch GSL World championship was less of a GSL than IPL 5 by far
Of course the era matters if not Chamberlain and his 50points/game would be consider the greatest ever.
Maru should be higher I don't know were nestea is but Maru should be around that level, way above "no GSL no skill" Taeja
I agree with Leenock and DRG though
Saying that TaeJa is "no skill" player is so unfair - it's just different skill to win GSL and to win weekend tournament. NesTea never excelled in the latter, TaeJa in the former.
it's not even like taeja ever did badly in gsl. he jsut didn't make it all the way and almost always went out agaisnt the eventual winner of the tournament.
in their hate for liquid bias people just want to overlook how great a player taeja is/was. for 3 years he consistently beat the top of the top, and more often than not he beat them decisively. only very few players like Life or piggod even have a positive winrate against taeja. denying that he is one of the three overall best players of the world and one of the most accomplished is jsut foolish.
In terms of all time Taeja is 29-20 against Life.
Aren't like dreamertt, Pigbaby and Flash the only players who never lost a series vs TaeJa in an offline tournament? TaeJa has dem solid winrates.
So what you're saying is Flash is the Greatest of All Time in SC2 as well.
On April 13 2015 07:15 vesicular wrote: soO way too low. Needs to be top 10 at least. 4 GSL finals is more impressive than just about any other accomplishment I can think of.
How about winning 4 GSL finals?
Just kidding, but maybe wait until you see stuchiu's reasoning for the top 10 players before deciding whether you disagree? Maybe he'll bring up something that'll make you reconsider. That's like the main reason I'm not posting my opinion, I'm giddy to see the other parts of this list. T_T
In offline matches life is ahead 19-17 in games and 6-5 in series, but in online matches life is 1-12 in games and 0-6 in series. The same offline-online result difference exists for life vs parting and life vs innovation. I wonder why there is such a discrepancy between offline and online results for life.
I think there are many inconsistency in some arguments (finally I think is a subjective list disguised). For example at the introduction they order the tournaments into differents tier but then when they analise the players the tiers seems to dissapear by saying that the path of the players where harder in one tournament or other. They put away the preparation and pressure that is involved in one tournament like GSL and in other like IPL. Saying MLG, IPL, IEM are tier 1 same as GSL is like a joke. Is like saying that wimbledon (in tennis) is the same as shangai masters because all the good players compete in both. Formats are different, pressure is different, preparation, etc. Winning WCS global finals, Hot6ix cup and IEM worldchampionship. Plus reaching WCS global final and GSL semis is way more important than winning 2 MLG, Dreamhack and IPL, plus reaching GSL finals (and losing against jkajji =/)
On April 12 2015 10:54 swag_bro wrote: Top 2 will be:
1. Life 2. Mvp
Life trumps Mvp in terms of on form skill and achievements. It's not even close.
nice joke
On April 12 2015 16:36 Naikonz wrote: I don't know why people keep placing Mvp first. He was a amazing. but at the beginning of SC2. That's why I think NesTea doesn't deserve a spot on this list. I get that NesTea won three GSLs. But when did he do that? When nobody besides a handful of players knew how to play the game. It wasn't nearly as figured out as it is now. I really think that Life is the best player of SC2 because he won a GSL when Mvp was in his prime (actually beating him in the finals), and he just won Blizzcon and GSL now, 3 years later, apart from many other tournaments. It would be cool to see a list of all the players in their prime. When they were at the top of their game. That would be so hard to judge. People like Jaedong, Dear and Soulkey would belong on that list.
Mvp was well past his prime when he played Life in the GSL finals. Nobody had even expected him to make his fourth final months earlier when he beat Squirtle because his injuries had stunted his game so much. Consider also that the series was played during a point in time when TvZ was completely broken and that Mvp still somehow pushed it all the way to game 7.
Great write up, loved the marine king bit. I remember reviewing all the replays i could get my hands on when I was super into game and everytime I pulled out an MKP game I would yell at my computer "you can't do that, it's so greedy!!" when i watched him play. The fact that he made it deep in so many tournaments with such builds is quite the achievement.
On April 13 2015 07:55 vesicular wrote: People saying Stephano are living in dreamland.
Wanna bet ?
Edit : Damn I forgot about Rain ....
I believe anything after he put DRG at #14. He's even behind Marineking ffs
seriously...the single most evil thing stuch has ever been related to
Not enough respect is given to his longevity imo. I don't even think DRG's best series was any of his encounters with MMA but instead with Bogus.
That series wasn't just good because of the exciting gameplay, it was good for the story. DRG looked totally washed up post-HotS up until that night. Then he just randomly comes out of nowhere one day and plays the best games of his career against what is probably the scariest TvZ ever seen. He even beat Bogus at his own mechanical game.
On April 13 2015 07:55 vesicular wrote: People saying Stephano are living in dreamland.
Wanna bet ?
Edit : Damn I forgot about Rain ....
I believe anything after he put DRG at #14. He's even behind Marineking ffs
seriously...the single most evil thing stuch has ever been related to
Not enough respect is given to his longevity imo. I don't even think DRG's best series was any of his encounters with MMA but instead with Bogus.
That series wasn't just good because of the exciting gameplay, it was good for the story. DRG looked totally washed up post-HotS up until that night. Then he just randomly comes out of nowhere one day and plays the best games of his career against what is probably the scariest TvZ ever seen. He even beat Bogus at his own mechanical game.
Oh ya. I remember how excited I during that group. So legendary. Not to mention he still holds the record for the longest GSL run in history
On April 12 2015 16:36 Naikonz wrote: I don't know why people keep placing Mvp first. He was a amazing. but at the beginning of SC2. That's why I think NesTea doesn't deserve a spot on this list. I get that NesTea won three GSLs. But when did he do that? When nobody besides a handful of players knew how to play the game. It wasn't nearly as figured out as it is now. I really think that Life is the best player of SC2 because he won a GSL when Mvp was in his prime (actually beating him in the finals), and he just won Blizzcon and GSL now, 3 years later, apart from many other tournaments. It would be cool to see a list of all the players in their prime. When they were at the top of their game. That would be so hard to judge. People like Jaedong, Dear and Soulkey would belong on that list.
Mvp was well past his prime when he played Life in the GSL finals. Nobody had even expected him to make his fourth final months earlier when he beat Squirtle because his injuries had stunted his game so much. Consider also that the series was played during a point in time when TvZ was completely broken and that Mvp still somehow pushed it all the way to game 7.
10. Rain 9. Innovation 8. Zest (he's only here after reading the article, otherwise he wouldn't even be on the list!) 7. MMA 6. Nestea 5. Polt 4. MC 3. Taeja 2. mvp 1. Life
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.
The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.
I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!
I mean, I guess those are good ways to keep a "discussion" going. :3
No actually he used a straw man. I can tell you about lots of threads on TL that have not much direction and heated internet arguments. That doesn't necessarily mean a discussion should not be happening, considering it's an exaggeration to say that every post was a circle jerk.
You complain about the thread being locked
I say why the thread was locked
For some reason you think this is a straw man
EDIT: Anyway yeah no Stephano isn't going to be on the list I'd wager
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.
The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.
I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!
I mean, I guess those are good ways to keep a "discussion" going. :3
No actually he used a straw man. I can tell you about lots of threads on TL that have not much direction and heated internet arguments. That doesn't necessarily mean a discussion should not be happening, considering it's an exaggeration to say that every post was a circle jerk.
You complain about the thread being locked
I say why the thread was locked
For some reason you think this is a straw man
EDIT: Anyway yeah no Stephano isn't going to be on the list I'd wager
Often people forget that Teamliquid is 90% unpaid staff with family/jobs/school working extremely hard to share quality content for the gaming community. I am fine with people having a difference of opinion from TL staff, but how about having some damn respect.
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.
The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.
I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!
I mean, I guess those are good ways to keep a "discussion" going. :3
No actually he used a straw man. I can tell you about lots of threads on TL that have not much direction and heated internet arguments. That doesn't necessarily mean a discussion should not be happening, considering it's an exaggeration to say that every post was a circle jerk.
You complain about the thread being locked
I say why the thread was locked
For some reason you think this is a straw man
EDIT: Anyway yeah no Stephano isn't going to be on the list I'd wager
Often people forget that Teamliquid is 90% unpaid staff with family/jobs/school working extremely hard to share quality content for the gaming community. I am fine with people having a difference of opinion from TL staff, but how about having some damn respect.
Sadly lots of people on the internet decide to be complete asshats for no good reason other than because they can get away with it.
Personally I believe Polt and MMA should be switched, but I think this is how the rankings will go. Maybe Rain instead of NesTea, but I doubt it given how high MKP got by being a pioneer.
edit: ugh, forgot Bomber... now I have to redo this. Nah, nvm, just gonna take NesTea out and replace with Bomber.
Parting's always been my favorite protoss. The thing I remember most distinctly is his 1 gate 3 nexus 8 gate build, excellent templar usage, and immortal all-ins. He really innovated protoss.
On April 13 2015 15:06 lichter wrote: i will never understand why people rate parting so highly
He was runner-up of both GSL and Blizzard Cup, he won WCS World Championships, was second in asia and third in WCS Korea in 2012, collected NesTea award, won three other premier titles.
And on top of that derailed Flash hype train on more than one occasion.
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.
The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.
I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!
I mean, I guess those are good ways to keep a "discussion" going. :3
No actually he used a straw man. I can tell you about lots of threads on TL that have not much direction and heated internet arguments. That doesn't necessarily mean a discussion should not be happening, considering it's an exaggeration to say that every post was a circle jerk.
You complain about the thread being locked
I say why the thread was locked
For some reason you think this is a straw man
EDIT: Anyway yeah no Stephano isn't going to be on the list I'd wager
You repeated the exact same thing I had just responded to ("people were saying the same thing over and over"), and implied the only reason to keep the thread open would be to get "all the answers about matchfixing". Even though I just explained why I think the thread should be kept open, and it was not to "get all the answers about matchfixing". In other words, you responded to a straw man rather than what I actually said. You did not respond to my point that the importance of the issue in and of itself is the reason the thread should be kept open.
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!
That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.
The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.
I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!
I mean, I guess those are good ways to keep a "discussion" going. :3
No actually he used a straw man. I can tell you about lots of threads on TL that have not much direction and heated internet arguments. That doesn't necessarily mean a discussion should not be happening, considering it's an exaggeration to say that every post was a circle jerk.
You complain about the thread being locked
I say why the thread was locked
For some reason you think this is a straw man
EDIT: Anyway yeah no Stephano isn't going to be on the list I'd wager
You repeated the exact same thing I had just responded to ("people were saying the same thing over and over"), and implied the only reason to keep the thread open would be to get "all the answers about matchfixing". Even though I just explained why I think the thread should be kept open, and it was not to "get all the answers about matchfixing". In other words, you responded to a straw man rather than what I actually said. You did not respond to my point that the importance of the issue in and of itself is the reason the thread should be kept open.
This topic is not supposed to be talked about in this thread anymore.
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote: its not getting embarrassing?
The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.
The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.
Please bring any further thoughts on this subject to Website Feedback. I will be happy to address your thoughts there.
I'm surprised so many people are putting herO on their list. Don't get me wrong, he's amazing and has achieved some incredible things, but I just don't see how he is GOAT level. Not yet, anyways.
Surely, MC will end in top 3 despite him not being on manys top 3 in here. No, he's not as good as KeSPA-players right now, and has been sub-par for quite some time now, but the amount of money earned, tournaments won, and impact on the scene he has had can be matched by close to none. I'd say the only ones capable of challenging him on a list such as this are Mvp and NesTea.
The player who has reached the highest level of skill is undoubtedly Life, but that doesn't make him the greatest of all time. A perfect example is Mvp because relative to his competition, he dominated the most of any player in SC2, but obviously he'd get stomped if he played like he did in his prime now ('cause the skill of players have risen so much).
The same goes for Pelé and Maradona. They would get absolutely crushed by players like Messi and Ronaldo if they played at their prime at the same time, but they still dominated their respective era so much that they can be considered greatest of all times.
Top 3 will be MC, NesTea and Mvp with the latter being on top.
On April 14 2015 01:17 Meckie wrote: Surely, MC will end in top 3 despite him not being on manys top 3 in here. No, he's not as good as KeSPA-players right now, and has been sub-par for quite some time now, but the amount of money earned, tournaments won, and impact on the scene he has had can be matched by close to none. I'd say the only ones capable of challenging him on a list such as this are Mvp and NesTea.
The player who has reached the highest level of skill is undoubtedly Life, but that doesn't make him the greatest of all time. A perfect example is Mvp because relative to his competition, he dominated the most of any player in SC2, but obviously he'd get stomped if he played like he did in his prime now ('cause the skill of players have risen so much).
The same goes for Pelé and Maradona. They would get absolutely crushed by players like Messi and Ronaldo if they played at their prime at the same time, but they still dominated their respective era so much that they can be considered greatest of all times.
Top 3 will be MC, NesTea and Mvp with the latter being on top.
On April 14 2015 01:17 Meckie wrote: Surely, MC will end in top 3 despite him not being on manys top 3 in here. No, he's not as good as KeSPA-players right now, and has been sub-par for quite some time now, but the amount of money earned, tournaments won, and impact on the scene he has had can be matched by close to none. I'd say the only ones capable of challenging him on a list such as this are Mvp and NesTea.
The player who has reached the highest level of skill is undoubtedly Life, but that doesn't make him the greatest of all time. A perfect example is Mvp because relative to his competition, he dominated the most of any player in SC2, but obviously he'd get stomped if he played like he did in his prime now ('cause the skill of players have risen so much).
The same goes for Pelé and Maradona. They would get absolutely crushed by players like Messi and Ronaldo if they played at their prime at the same time, but they still dominated their respective era so much that they can be considered greatest of all times.
Top 3 will be MC, NesTea and Mvp with the latter being on top.
Decent analysis but I think you're vastly overrating Nestea and how long he was on top for, even at the beginning of 2012 he was already descending into mid level player status.
Top 5 will be Mvp, Life, MC, MMA and Taeja or Polt.
On April 14 2015 01:17 Meckie wrote: Surely, MC will end in top 3 despite him not being on manys top 3 in here. No, he's not as good as KeSPA-players right now, and has been sub-par for quite some time now, but the amount of money earned, tournaments won, and impact on the scene he has had can be matched by close to none. I'd say the only ones capable of challenging him on a list such as this are Mvp and NesTea.
The player who has reached the highest level of skill is undoubtedly Life, but that doesn't make him the greatest of all time. A perfect example is Mvp because relative to his competition, he dominated the most of any player in SC2, but obviously he'd get stomped if he played like he did in his prime now ('cause the skill of players have risen so much).
The same goes for Pelé and Maradona. They would get absolutely crushed by players like Messi and Ronaldo if they played at their prime at the same time, but they still dominated their respective era so much that they can be considered greatest of all times.
Top 3 will be MC, NesTea and Mvp with the latter being on top.
But what keeps Life from reaching top 3 in your opinion? Life is #2 in total earnings after MC and you yourself said he reached the highest skill of any player ever. Doesn't add up if you ask me <.<
On April 14 2015 01:17 Meckie wrote: Surely, MC will end in top 3 despite him not being on manys top 3 in here. No, he's not as good as KeSPA-players right now, and has been sub-par for quite some time now, but the amount of money earned, tournaments won, and impact on the scene he has had can be matched by close to none. I'd say the only ones capable of challenging him on a list such as this are Mvp and NesTea.
The player who has reached the highest level of skill is undoubtedly Life, but that doesn't make him the greatest of all time. A perfect example is Mvp because relative to his competition, he dominated the most of any player in SC2, but obviously he'd get stomped if he played like he did in his prime now ('cause the skill of players have risen so much).
The same goes for Pelé and Maradona. They would get absolutely crushed by players like Messi and Ronaldo if they played at their prime at the same time, but they still dominated their respective era so much that they can be considered greatest of all times.
Top 3 will be MC, NesTea and Mvp with the latter being on top.
On April 14 2015 00:58 KingofdaHipHop wrote: I'm surprised so many people are putting herO on their list. Don't get me wrong, he's amazing and has achieved some incredible things, but I just don't see how he is GOAT level. Not yet, anyways.
Yeah, the funniest thing is it's not even the CJ players who are doing that XD
On April 13 2015 15:06 lichter wrote: i will never understand why people rate parting so highly
One of the most consistent players in GSL history plus #6 in overall earnings so he must be doing something right.
On a different note, Stephano definitively deserves a place on that list, he defined the Meta on more several occasions and beat many of the world's best players while doing so.
It's hard to tell that the greatest is happening right before your eyes. Only when it has passed do we usually say he or she was the best. As of today, the greatest would probably be MVP and then Life. when it's all said and done, Life will have passed MVP in this kind of list, maybe along with other players (Maru?).
On April 14 2015 05:39 yocheco619 wrote: It's hard to tell that the greatest is happening right before your eyes. Only when it has passed do we usually say he or she was the best. As of today, the greatest would probably be MVP and then Life. when it's all said and done, Life will have passed MVP in this kind of list, maybe along with other players (Maru?).
Nobody will pass Mvp, just like nobody will pass BoxeR in Broodwar.
On April 14 2015 05:39 yocheco619 wrote: It's hard to tell that the greatest is happening right before your eyes. Only when it has passed do we usually say he or she was the best. As of today, the greatest would probably be MVP and then Life. when it's all said and done, Life will have passed MVP in this kind of list, maybe along with other players (Maru?).
Nobody will pass Mvp, just like nobody will pass BoxeR in Broodwar.
I think quite a fair share of people will disagree.
On April 14 2015 04:13 sibs wrote: GOAT is already Life, but Mvp has the strongest claim to bonjua competing against a much much weaker field than Life is right now.
you could also argue that Mvps achievements were far more impressive because the meta wasn't figured out when he was succesful and he had to innovate much more than life to win his tournaments.
On April 14 2015 04:13 sibs wrote: GOAT is already Life, but Mvp has the strongest claim to bonjua competing against a much much weaker field than Life is right now.
you could also argue that Mvps achievements were far more impressive because the meta wasn't figured out when he was succesful and he had to innovate much more than life to win his tournaments.
rofl you realise what you talking about? late 2012 Life was all about innovation, his unique counter attack style and clever usage of lings was something no other zerg could imitate and what made the difference between him and other zergs.
On April 14 2015 04:13 sibs wrote: GOAT is already Life, but Mvp has the strongest claim to bonjua competing against a much much weaker field than Life is right now.
you could also argue that Mvps achievements were far more impressive because the meta wasn't figured out when he was succesful and he had to innovate much more than life to win his tournaments.
rofl you realise what you talking about? late 2012 Life was all about innovation, his unique counter attack style and clever usage of lings was something no other zerg could imitate and what made the difference between him and other zergs.
Yea but late 2012 was super stable era compared to the wild west of 2011.
On April 14 2015 04:13 sibs wrote: GOAT is already Life, but Mvp has the strongest claim to bonjua competing against a much much weaker field than Life is right now.
you could also argue that Mvps achievements were far more impressive because the meta wasn't figured out when he was succesful and he had to innovate much more than life to win his tournaments.
rofl you realise what you talking about? late 2012 Life was all about innovation, his unique counter attack style and clever usage of lings was something no other zerg could imitate and what made the difference between him and other zergs.
It defines him to this day and it also makes him different from Mvp. Mvp innovated styles that redefined Terran itself and became common in the meta, Life innovates styles that redefine himself and aren't imitated. There's a difference in importance between those innovations.
On April 14 2015 06:18 Zealously wrote: Indeed, in one of the cases other players saw the innovations and followed suit, in the other they tried but found themselves utterly unable
The interesting thing throughout that is, however, that both of them ended up far above all other players of their race, despite this distinctly different type of innovation.
This "innovation" aspect is completely ridiculous tbh. Noone really knows if that player really thought about that innovation and was the first one to use it. It could be a teammate did it in the teamhouse, or a coach thought of it, or he saw it randomly on the ladder. "innovation" is basically meaningless, what matters is how successful you can use said strategy. And even if you don't agree with that premise, in a game which isn't "figured out" yet it is a lot easier to innovate regardless.
On April 14 2015 06:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: This "innovation" aspect is completely ridiculous tbh. Noone really knows if that player really thought about that innovation and was the first one to use it. It could be a teammate did it in the teamhouse, or a coach thought of it, or he saw it randomly on the ladder. "innovation" is basically meaningless, what matters is how successful you can use said strategy. And even if you don't agree with that premise, in a game which isn't "figured out" yet it is a lot easier to innovate regardless.
That's utterly unreasonable. When a player is pioneering new strategies and ideas over and over again in tournaments over a long period of time and others following up, days, weeks or months after until it becomes standard is not a coincidence. And while new ideas not always have to be original, to bring them refined to the table takes a careful consideration of the actual potential. Great innovative players are not only characterized by originality, but also the ability to recognize the potential of an unrefined idea others would not.
On April 14 2015 03:50 Darkhorse wrote: Mvp Life MC Taeja Polt MMA Nestea Zest Inno Parting
This prediction is extremely reasonable except...
On April 12 2015 04:31 Zealously wrote:
On April 12 2015 04:30 KalWarkov wrote: i have a problem. i have 12 players left for 10 spots :O
Zest Nestea Innovation sOs Bomber Taeja Polt Parting MMA MC Life MVP
Hint: three of those aren't in the Top 10
Mine isn't really a prediction tbh because I know the order and who is actually on the list. This was just my opinion
Curious, why do you put Polt over MMA? I have a bias for MMA I suppose since he's my favorite player, but I think his achievements edge out Polt's pretty handily.
Their GSL wins are of pretty equal quality. IEM Kiev and ASUS ROG are similar. They both have 2 WCS EU/NA wins. MMA's MLG is pretty comparable to Polt's Redbull win. Of the remaining premier wins, MMA has Blizzard Cup, Iron Squid, and Dreamhack Moscow, versus Polt's MLG and recent WCS, which I think is pretty favorable for MMA (in large part due to the Blizzard Cup).
Both with 4 second places, but MMA's are more impressive with a GSL and a Blizzcon in the mix. Both with six 3rd-4th placings of similar quality, but one of MMA's is notably the most recent GSL. That GSL semifinal and the second place at Blizzcon I think especially say a lot about MMA's "greatness".
Both have pretty similar performances in "major tournaments", for what thats worth. And then outside of all of this, you also have MMA's notable team league performances in both ATC (although Polt has not had the opportunity to compete in team leagues like this for a while now) and GSTL, in which he was twice named the Most Valuable Player.
On April 14 2015 03:50 Darkhorse wrote: Mvp Life MC Taeja Polt MMA Nestea Zest Inno Parting
This prediction is extremely reasonable except...
On April 12 2015 04:31 Zealously wrote:
On April 12 2015 04:30 KalWarkov wrote: i have a problem. i have 12 players left for 10 spots :O
Zest Nestea Innovation sOs Bomber Taeja Polt Parting MMA MC Life MVP
Hint: three of those aren't in the Top 10
except that was a joke because the guy had 2 guys extra and sos who is confirmed to be 16th, thus 3 of them are definitely not top 10.
Umm... There's 12 people in that list. If three of those aren't in the top 10, it means someone not on that list is in the top 10. And Darkhorse's list is made up entirely of players in that list.
I guess I might as well throw my hat in the prediction ring.
The way I see it, there are 11 clear contenders for 10 spots: Innovation, Rain, Parting, Polt, Nestea, MMA, Life, MVP, Zest, Taeja, MC. Stephano isn't going to be on there. Bomber isn't going to be on there. Dear, Soulkey, CJ hero--not happening (do this a year from now and cj hero would be, I think, but alas). one of those 11 didn't make the top 15 (or top 16, considering we know sOs was in the conversation), the other 10 are your top 10 in some order. if you look purely at results, the most likely to be left out are Innovation, Rain, and Parting. if you value longevity, current form, or top level competition, Nestea could easily be out (and MVP would lose his throne to Life). if you highly value Korean results above all others, MC or Polt could be off the list, and Taeja could be out of the top five. I don't think those things are very likely.
MVP and Life are the clear top two, in some order. Taeja is a lock for the list, and I think he'll be in the top five. I think Innovation's recent GSL title took him off the bubble. with a GSL win, a WCS season finals win, a GSL runner up, and team league dominance on top of his aura of invincibility when he was at his peak, I don't think there's any way to leave him off the list. he's Maru with a higher peak and more results. MMA had a period of time as a dominant player in Korea, and then he had a period of time as a dominant player in Europe. when he came back to Korea and immediately had a top four finish in GSL. I think that pretty much sealed it. he's going to be on the list. I don't think you can make a coherent argument that puts Zest behind s0s, Parting, and Rain, which means he's guaranteed to be on this list.
that brings us down to Polt, MC, Nestea, Rain, and Parting. one of those five is out. it's not going to be MC. his form seems to fluctuate daily, and his Korean results have been nonexistent for three years, but he's still the money champ and it's impossible to write the story of SC2 without him. he's always lurking, and he's done so for five years. there's no chance he's not in the top fifteen. so how do you differentiate between Parting, Rain, Nestea, and Polt? between them, those players basically have nothing in common. Polt has been relevant for almost the entirety of SC2's history, but he only has two Korean finishes of note, and both of them came in 2011. Nestea was the first best player, and his period of dominance was arguably as high as we've seen, including an entire GSL in which he didn't drop a map. but he was only a top player for a year, and he hasn't been relevant for basically three years. Parting doesn't have many tournament wins of note, and the TL staff doesn't seem to like him much, but he's been a top five protoss player for 3 straight years, has at various times been considered the best in the world at all three protoss matchups, and he singlehandedly set the PvT and PvZ metas in different eras. Rain was the first Kespa player to make a name for himself, and has been considered a top protoss player pretty much from his debut to now, but he's also arguably in the worst form of his SC2 career as we speak, and he's basically only won a Hot 6 cup and an uneven OSL that may or may not have actually happened.
I think Polt is in. He's been too good in foreign tournaments for too long, across metas and matchups, with no support system. So we're down to Parting, Rain, and Nestea. If we take Zealously's hint post into consideration, then either Parting or Nestea is out and Rain is in, since I already excluded Bomber and sOs is confirmed for 16th. If it weren't for that post, I think I'd leave Rain out. I don't think there's any meaningful way to compare Parting and Nestea, so I'm just going to say that Parting is out because TL doesn't much like him and he doesn't have the wins to back the skill and influence up.
So we have our ten: MVP, Life, MMA, MC, Innovation, Rain, Zest, Taeja, Nestea, and Polt. MVP and Life are in the top five. Rain isn't. I think Taeja's two GSL semifinal runs in unfavorable conditions are enough to win out over the "but he sucked in Korea!" crowd. his sheer volume of wins and his runs of dominance make the initial argument for him, and his occasional GSL success is enough to keep him there. I put him ahead of MC and Polt, who are the two players you can most easily compare him to. That's two spots left for the top five. I kind of feel like Zest is in there, but can you really put him there when he didn't even qualify for GSL or SSL this past season? He had a sterling record in 2014, but to be top five you need more than that, and so I view those failures to qualify as a pretty big deal. Polt has never been considered the best Terran player in the world. MMA has. Their success is otherwise comparable. Yes, Polt 4-0'd him in the Super Tournament, but MMA was overall the better player that year, and has had more impressive victories to me. I think MMA will be top five. Honestly, I can't come up with a way to determine the fifth spot. It's all about how highly stuichu values those 2011 results. I think Polt has had a better career than MC, but MC has two GSL titles. Nestea beats all competitors for this spot in the dominance-versus-competition-during-peak category, and falls woefully behind in everything else. Zest would be favored over anyone on this list except for Life in a tournament today, and that would be true for any point in the last year. So we'll take a guess.
Final list:
10. Rain 9. Innovation 8. Nestea 7. Zest 6. MC
5. Polt 4. MMA 3. Taeja 2. Life 1. MVP
I'm going to be pissed when this comes out and Bomber is on the list instead of Rain and that costs me everything.
Specifically it's hard to place Nestea for me. There was a time when he was unstoppable, and that time did last for a while. But his skill was never at the level of players nowadays, and he was always overshadowed by MVP (for me, at least), so it's so difficult to figure out where he should actually rank. How much do we weight his results vs. the overall skill level of players at the time? I'm interested to see what stuchiu decides for that (assuming Nestea makes the list at all.)
This was really interesting to read. Thank you for a great article. If I had my choice, I would put Nestea at the top. The fact he managed to transition into new game and winning GSL without dropping single set at such age makes him worthy
On April 14 2015 15:12 ETisME wrote: Anyone can explain why is mc ranked so high for you?
His longevity as a tournament class player is unmatched by any player in Starcraft II. Since 2010 he's persistently attained a high position in tournament after tournament in a way that no other player has. Each time people count him out he comes back for yet another world class finish. He won't be first as even when he's winning tournaments he isn't the best player in the world usually. His highs aren't high enough. But he's done well in such an incredible number of tournaments that he definitely deserves a top 5 spot. In addition he is basically the only Protoss worth mentioning if you look at the first two years of the game.
On April 14 2015 15:25 JunkkaGom wrote: This was really interesting to read. Thank you for a great article. If I had my choice, I would put Nestea at the top. The fact he managed to transition into new game and winning GSL without dropping single set at such age makes him worthy
The problem with Nestea's rank within this ranking is that his achievements are very localized temporally. In 2010-2011 he was the only zerg worth mentioning (okay maybe DRG for the tail end of 2011). In 2012 he was a strong zerg. And since then he has achieved no results. Should he really be called the greatest player if he's had no impact on over half of it?
On April 14 2015 15:25 JunkkaGom wrote: This was really interesting to read. Thank you for a great article. If I had my choice, I would put Nestea at the top. The fact he managed to transition into new game and winning GSL without dropping single set at such age makes him worthy
The problem with Nestea's rank within this ranking is that his achievements are very localized temporally. In 2010-2011 he was the only zerg worth mentioning (okay maybe DRG for the tail end of 2011). In 2012 he was a strong zerg. And since then he has achieved no results. Should he really be called the greatest player if he's had no impact on over half of it?
Leenock was pretty worth mentioning at the end of 2011 too..
Also I think this is one of the biggest throws in sc2 history from the end of 2011 which made Nestea suck. After this game he pretty much never played well again. Even I could have won from his position:
Start watching around 11:30 if the timer doesnt work.
On April 14 2015 15:25 JunkkaGom wrote: This was really interesting to read. Thank you for a great article. If I had my choice, I would put Nestea at the top. The fact he managed to transition into new game and winning GSL without dropping single set at such age makes him worthy
The problem with Nestea's rank within this ranking is that his achievements are very localized temporally. In 2010-2011 he was the only zerg worth mentioning (okay maybe DRG for the tail end of 2011). In 2012 he was a strong zerg. And since then he has achieved no results. Should he really be called the greatest player if he's had no impact on over half of it?
Leenock was pretty worth mentioning at the end of 2011 too..
Yes, Leenock, DRG, and Losira (won code A and was a MLG and GSL finalist ffs) were all quite hot in 2011.
As a longtime fan of Nestea who followed him since the beginning, if I had to pinpoint the exact moment where he began his long descent into what he is today I'd say it happened between the 2011 Blizzcon and the 2011 November season ro16 against Huk. Right around there is when he began throwing hardcore in longer games and his strategical brilliance began to slowly fade. Didn't register at the time but already I'd say DRG and Leenock were better at that point.
edit: nvm you posted it.
after this game he pretty much never played well again.
Not entirely. Nestea still maintained his position as a top 5 Zerg for several more months taking 3rd at both IPL4 and Iron Squid and even went on to make a ro8 in the gsl. Nestea's final tournament of relevancy I'd say was Iron Squid II in 2013 where he actually did put on a competitive form.
1) Life 2) Mvp 3) INnoVation 4) Bomber 5) TaeJa 6) MC 7) Zest 8) sOs 9) PartinG 10) Soulkey or NesTea
Life dominated WoL the 2nd most, and HotS the most, give the kid the trophy already, while Bogus has had the most dominant streak out of anyone ever during the first half of HotS or so...
Bomber is extremely clutch on offline things, rarely dropped a final, when he was there, similar like Life and Mvp
Holy overrating Zest guys pls D: also overrating Stephano
If your list doesn't at least include Nestea you are a silly goof
On April 14 2015 20:25 Gwavajuice wrote: Seriously, Nestea? if you guys really want to go for nostalgia, go for Fruitdealer...
I'm just gonna assume you didn't watch SC2 in 2010/2011 considering you say this and you have Zest and Inno above MC, MMA, and Polt. Nestea made Zerg man, and he won three GSLs
I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
On April 14 2015 15:12 ETisME wrote: Anyone can explain why is mc ranked so high for you?
One of the most successful and winningest players of all time (won the most money out of any SC2 player for quite a while, although he may have dropped to 2nd or 3rd recently), and was the premier Protoss player for an insanely long amount of time
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
Also 3 GSLs. Also Zest above MMA and Polt? Pls
Also, there's literally an award named after Nestea for his longevity in the pro scene.
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
Also 3 GSLs. Also Zest above MMA and Polt? Pls
Also, there's literally an award named after Nestea for his longevity in the pro scene.
Yeah for real. People act like he didn't do anything besides his three wins. He was actually pretty strong in Korea for a few years
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
Also 3 GSLs. Also Zest above MMA and Polt? Pls
Also, there's literally an award named after Nestea for his longevity in the pro scene.
Yeah for real. People act like he didn't do anything besides his three wins. He was actually pretty strong in Korea for a few years
I don't know if i would say that he was "pretty strong in korea for a few years" tbh. His best result (if i didn't miss something) after his last code s win was ro8 (two times). He was decent, not really strong though. This doesn't change the fact that he actually won code s three times, but you simply have to value these early code s titles A LOT less then the current ones. He should be in a top 15 list, but i am not sure if he should be in the upper half
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
Also 3 GSLs. Also Zest above MMA and Polt? Pls
Also, there's literally an award named after Nestea for his longevity in the pro scene.
Yeah for real. People act like he didn't do anything besides his three wins. He was actually pretty strong in Korea for a few years
I don't know if i would say that he was "pretty strong in korea for a few years" tbh. His best result (if i didn't miss something) after his last code s win was ro8 (two times). He was decent, not really strong though. This doesn't change the fact that he actually won code s three times, but you simply have to value these early code s titles A LOT less then the current ones. He should be in a top 15 list, but i am not sure if he should be in the upper half
He was undoubtedly the best Zerg player for quite some period of time, is one of the winningest players of all time, and has won more money than nearly any other SC2 player. If we're talking about HotS, then no, he's not relevant. If we're talking about all of SC2 (which we are), then he's the friggin man
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
Also 3 GSLs. Also Zest above MMA and Polt? Pls
Also, there's literally an award named after Nestea for his longevity in the pro scene.
Yeah for real. People act like he didn't do anything besides his three wins. He was actually pretty strong in Korea for a few years
This doesn't change the fact that he actually won code s three times, but you simply have to value these early code s titles A LOT less then the current ones.
perfection is not any more valuable than innovation
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
Also 3 GSLs. Also Zest above MMA and Polt? Pls
Also, there's literally an award named after Nestea for his longevity in the pro scene.
Yeah for real. People act like he didn't do anything besides his three wins. He was actually pretty strong in Korea for a few years
This doesn't change the fact that he actually won code s three times, but you simply have to value these early code s titles A LOT less then the current ones.
perfection is not any more valuable than innovation
I think it is. "innovation" is so vague that it means almost nothing considering that we simply don't know who really innovated (ladder, coaches, etc). We can say that player X used strategy Y successfully though. Which leads to -> success > "innovation". Otherwise Catz might be the GOAT
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
Also 3 GSLs. Also Zest above MMA and Polt? Pls
Also, there's literally an award named after Nestea for his longevity in the pro scene.
Yeah for real. People act like he didn't do anything besides his three wins. He was actually pretty strong in Korea for a few years
This doesn't change the fact that he actually won code s three times, but you simply have to value these early code s titles A LOT less then the current ones.
perfection is not any more valuable than innovation
I think it is. "innovation" is so vague that it means almost nothing considering that we simply don't know who really innovated (ladder, coaches, etc). We can say that player X used strategy Y successfully though. Which leads to -> success > "innovation". Otherwise Catz might be the GOAT
On April 14 2015 20:26 Darkhorse wrote: also overrating Stephano
really ? The guys that shifted the whole metagame several time ? Not saying he was the best mechanical or overall player, but he was a pure genius in the understanding of the game.
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
Also 3 GSLs. Also Zest above MMA and Polt? Pls
Also, there's literally an award named after Nestea for his longevity in the pro scene.
Yeah for real. People act like he didn't do anything besides his three wins. He was actually pretty strong in Korea for a few years
This doesn't change the fact that he actually won code s three times, but you simply have to value these early code s titles A LOT less then the current ones.
perfection is not any more valuable than innovation
I think it is. "innovation" is so vague that it means almost nothing considering that we simply don't know who really innovated (ladder, coaches, etc). We can say that player X used strategy Y successfully though. Which leads to -> success > "innovation". Otherwise Catz might be the GOAT
Leenock and DRG both credited Nestea with the creation of Zerg in interviews.
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
Also 3 GSLs. Also Zest above MMA and Polt? Pls
Also, there's literally an award named after Nestea for his longevity in the pro scene.
Yeah for real. People act like he didn't do anything besides his three wins. He was actually pretty strong in Korea for a few years
This doesn't change the fact that he actually won code s three times, but you simply have to value these early code s titles A LOT less then the current ones.
perfection is not any more valuable than innovation
I think it is. "innovation" is so vague that it means almost nothing considering that we simply don't know who really innovated (ladder, coaches, etc). We can say that player X used strategy Y successfully though. Which leads to -> success > "innovation". Otherwise Catz might be the GOAT
Leenock and DRG both credited Nestea with the creation of Zerg in interviews.
I have a hard time thinking who improved the race overall more tbh, nestea I suppose figured out the fundementals while stephano came up with speedlings into ultras, 3base roach rush, 2 base hydra timings, perfected infestor/broodlord, wrote the book on zvp. But nestea did prove that hatch before pool is better vs 11/11...
In any event I don't want stephano to be high on that list nor do I want nestea to be high on that list.
On April 15 2015 00:48 Fuell wrote: people always name seed sniper and jjakji as most forgotten gsl champions but drg and roro are way more forgottener
On April 15 2015 00:48 Fuell wrote: people always name seed sniper and jjakji as most forgotten gsl champions but drg and roro are way more forgottener
What
sniper and seed are the most. jjakji is not as much forgotten since he moved to EU and started to be visible. RorO was the first KeSPA player to be really strong (4th in 2012 WCS Korea Nationals etc) and won the last WoL GSL.
How many of the likely top 10 are still relevant today? The Kespa switch changed the landscape completely. It's nostalgic to think of the WoL days before the Kespa invasion, but the truth is winning pre-Kespa GSL is easier than winning hotsix cup today or maybe even some of the more stacked iem today. How leenock winning mlg is tougher than sOs winning blizzcon, iem world and hotsix is beyond me. Top 3 of a race in 2012 is nothing compared to top 10 in 2015.
On April 15 2015 03:26 Samx wrote: How many of the likely top 10 are still relevant today? The Kespa switch changed the landscape completely. It's nostalgic to think of the WoL days before the Kespa invasion, but the truth is winning pre-Kespa GSL is easier than winning hotsix cup today or maybe even some of the more stacked iem today. How leenock winning mlg is tougher than sOs winning blizzcon, iem world and hotsix is beyond me. Top 3 of a race in 2012 is nothing compared to top 10 in 2015.
Of the likely top 10? Life, PartinG definitely, MC is kinda relevant, MMA is kinda relevant (GSL semifinalist but close to retiring), TaeJa was relevant until last year but is quasi-retired now, Polt is relevant albeit moreso in the foreign scene. Possible other candidates are INnoVation, Rain and Zest which are obviously relevant. Only Mvp and NesTea are obvious candidates that are obviously irrelevant.
On April 14 2015 20:53 helius788 wrote: I also feel like ppl overrate NesTea. Sure he won 3 GSL, but he was only dominating in end 2010 till mid 2011. Zest was dominating pretty much 2014. Around the same amount of months, but the competition has become much harder.
10. Parting 9. INnoVation 8. MMA 7. Polt 6. NesTea 5. Zest 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
Counter point: Nestea basically defined Zerg. He revolutionized how it was played and helped create the meta. Zest played well in an already defined Protoss meta
Also 3 GSLs. Also Zest above MMA and Polt? Pls
Also, there's literally an award named after Nestea for his longevity in the pro scene.
Yeah for real. People act like he didn't do anything besides his three wins. He was actually pretty strong in Korea for a few years
I don't know if i would say that he was "pretty strong in korea for a few years" tbh. His best result (if i didn't miss something) after his last code s win was ro8 (two times). He was decent, not really strong though. This doesn't change the fact that he actually won code s three times, but you simply have to value these early code s titles A LOT less then the current ones. He should be in a top 15 list, but i am not sure if he should be in the upper half
Top 8 in GSL is pretty dang good. Especially since one of those top 8s was a 2-3 loss to mvp while mvp was still in god mode. He also had his top 3 IPL4 run which was april 2012. That is still one of the most stacked international tournaments ever with nearly 40 koreans in attendance. He beat both the finalists in that tournament. It really seemed like he only lost due to fatigue in the end. I wish IPL4 had been a 4 day tournament. It definitely should have been considering all 3 days ended up being like 12+ hours long which is far too harsh on the players. I also think Nestea is slightly underrated because people forget just how many times he got blocked by mvp. In 2011 he lost to mvp 6 times. Only 2 of those were in finals (gainward and Blizzcon). If he had better bracket luck he probably would have made another finals.
On April 15 2015 03:26 Samx wrote: How many of the likely top 10 are still relevant today? The Kespa switch changed the landscape completely. It's nostalgic to think of the WoL days before the Kespa invasion, but the truth is winning pre-Kespa GSL is easier than winning hotsix cup today or maybe even some of the more stacked iem today. How leenock winning mlg is tougher than sOs winning blizzcon, iem world and hotsix is beyond me. Top 3 of a race in 2012 is nothing compared to top 10 in 2015.
MMA is kinda relevant (GSL semifinalist but close to retiring)
You can't be much more "relevant" than a Blizzcon final and a GSL semifinal...
On April 15 2015 03:26 Samx wrote: How many of the likely top 10 are still relevant today? The Kespa switch changed the landscape completely. It's nostalgic to think of the WoL days before the Kespa invasion, but the truth is winning pre-Kespa GSL is easier than winning hotsix cup today or maybe even some of the more stacked iem today. How leenock winning mlg is tougher than sOs winning blizzcon, iem world and hotsix is beyond me. Top 3 of a race in 2012 is nothing compared to top 10 in 2015.
MMA is kinda relevant (GSL semifinalist but close to retiring)
You can't be much more "relevant" than a Blizzcon final and a GSL semifinal...
Actually I don't think there are any relevant players atm. At least according to the logic presented here.
On April 15 2015 03:26 Samx wrote: How many of the likely top 10 are still relevant today? The Kespa switch changed the landscape completely. It's nostalgic to think of the WoL days before the Kespa invasion, but the truth is winning pre-Kespa GSL is easier than winning hotsix cup today or maybe even some of the more stacked iem today. How leenock winning mlg is tougher than sOs winning blizzcon, iem world and hotsix is beyond me. Top 3 of a race in 2012 is nothing compared to top 10 in 2015.
MMA is kinda relevant (GSL semifinalist but close to retiring)
You can't be much more "relevant" than a Blizzcon final and a GSL semifinal...
In that, yes, but he said he'll probably retire and join the military this year, so how much longer he'll stay relevant is questionable; hence the "kinda". And Blizzcon and his GSL semifinal had several months between them where MMA didn't look great, he rose to relevance again after he reached GSL Ro16 and outplayed Dark, who had previously stomped him in the Ro32, and INnoVation, but before that he looked like he'll not get much done in Korea for a while.
On April 15 2015 03:29 Frakkofff wrote: So many stupid people on this thread.
sOs... Seriously?
maybe YOU are the stupid one, and some people just show their own personal Top 10, because they dont need to get a TL+ ?
sOs easily belongs Top 10 IMO, he won some of the hardest contested and stacked tournaments ever, in fact by that, he won a lot of prize money in a short period of time, while MMA ...I´am not so sure about, dude didnt accomplish much after Wings. I would have probably put him somewhere around 11-13.
On April 15 2015 03:29 Frakkofff wrote: So many stupid people on this thread.
sOs... Seriously?
maybe YOU are the stupid one, and some people just show their own personal Top 10, because they dont need to get a TL+ ?
sOs easily belongs Top 10 IMO, he won some of the hardest contested and stacked tournaments ever, in fact by that, he won a lot of prize money in a short period of time, while MMA ...I´am not so sure about, dude didnt accomplish much after Wings. I would have probably swaped him with sOs on this list.
I'm no MMA fan, but three WCS EU finals and two wins along with runner up at Blizzcon is not accomplishing nothing.
On April 15 2015 03:29 Frakkofff wrote: So many stupid people on this thread.
sOs... Seriously?
maybe YOU are the stupid one, and some people just show their own personal Top 10, because they dont need to get a TL+ ?
sOs easily belongs Top 10 IMO, he won some of the hardest contested and stacked tournaments ever, in fact by that, he won a lot of prize money in a short period of time, while MMA ...I´am not so sure about, dude didnt accomplish much after Wings. I would have probably swaped him with sOs on this list.
I'm no MMA fan, but three WCS EU finals and two wins along with runner up at Blizzcon is not accomplishing nothing.
On April 15 2015 03:29 Frakkofff wrote: So many stupid people on this thread.
sOs... Seriously?
maybe YOU are the stupid one, and some people just show their own personal Top 10, because they dont need to get a TL+ ?
sOs easily belongs Top 10 IMO, he won some of the hardest contested and stacked tournaments ever, in fact by that, he won a lot of prize money in a short period of time, while MMA ...I´am not so sure about, dude didnt accomplish much after Wings. I would have probably swaped him with sOs on this list.
I'm no MMA fan, but three WCS EU finals and two wins along with runner up at Blizzcon is not accomplishing nothing.
find the issue.
And after the WCS reform he went back to Korea and got a top 4 finish in Code S. What's your point?
On April 15 2015 03:29 Frakkofff wrote: So many stupid people on this thread.
sOs... Seriously?
maybe YOU are the stupid one, and some people just show their own personal Top 10, because they dont need to get a TL+ ?
sOs easily belongs Top 10 IMO, he won some of the hardest contested and stacked tournaments ever, in fact by that, he won a lot of prize money in a short period of time, while MMA ...I´am not so sure about, dude didnt accomplish much after Wings. I would have probably swaped him with sOs on this list.
I'm no MMA fan, but three WCS EU finals and two wins along with runner up at Blizzcon is not accomplishing nothing.
find the issue.
WCS EU had more than enough good players to make winning it or placing highly an achievement. Also remember MC went to WCS EU after barely losing to Roro (who went on to win it) in GSL round of 8 and both MMA went right back to korean and qualified for GSL both going to at least the top 16 so it is not like they would have had no chance if they stayed in Korea.
On April 15 2015 03:29 Frakkofff wrote: So many stupid people on this thread.
sOs... Seriously?
maybe YOU are the stupid one, and some people just show their own personal Top 10, because they dont need to get a TL+ ?
sOs easily belongs Top 10 IMO, he won some of the hardest contested and stacked tournaments ever, in fact by that, he won a lot of prize money in a short period of time, while MMA ...I´am not so sure about, dude didnt accomplish much after Wings. I would have probably swaped him with sOs on this list.
I'm no MMA fan, but three WCS EU finals and two wins along with runner up at Blizzcon is not accomplishing nothing.
find the issue.
WCS EU had more than enough good players to make winning it or placing highly an achievement. Also remember MC went to WCS EU after barely losing to Roro (who went on to win it) in GSL round of 8 and both MMA went right back to korean and qualified for GSL both going to at least the top 16 so it is not like they would have had no chance if they stayed in Korea.
You shouldn't really value the results of last code s too highly, code s needs a few seasons to be stable again. With the total reset the results are a lot more volatile than before. I mean just look at MC, he had to play vs Nette, Losira, Penguin and Fantasy to get into the Ro16. Usually it's way harder to achieve the same
On April 15 2015 03:29 Frakkofff wrote: So many stupid people on this thread.
sOs... Seriously?
maybe YOU are the stupid one, and some people just show their own personal Top 10, because they dont need to get a TL+ ?
sOs easily belongs Top 10 IMO, he won some of the hardest contested and stacked tournaments ever, in fact by that, he won a lot of prize money in a short period of time, while MMA ...I´am not so sure about, dude didnt accomplish much after Wings. I would have probably swaped him with sOs on this list.
I'm no MMA fan, but three WCS EU finals and two wins along with runner up at Blizzcon is not accomplishing nothing.
find the issue.
WCS EU had more than enough good players to make winning it or placing highly an achievement. Also remember MC went to WCS EU after barely losing to Roro (who went on to win it) in GSL round of 8 and both MMA went right back to korean and qualified for GSL both going to at least the top 16 so it is not like they would have had no chance if they stayed in Korea.
You shouldn't really value the results of last code s too highly, code s needs a few seasons to be stable again. With the total reset the results are a lot more volatile than before. I mean just look at MC, he had to play vs Nette, Losira, Penguin and Fantasy to get into the Ro16. Usually it's way harder to achieve the same
But it's mostly about MMA, who had really hard groups in Ro32 and Ro16 and still managed to make it happen. So going to WCS EU doesn't really say a lot and being successful there is an accomplishment in its own right.
On April 15 2015 03:29 Frakkofff wrote: So many stupid people on this thread.
sOs... Seriously?
maybe YOU are the stupid one, and some people just show their own personal Top 10, because they dont need to get a TL+ ?
sOs easily belongs Top 10 IMO, he won some of the hardest contested and stacked tournaments ever, in fact by that, he won a lot of prize money in a short period of time, while MMA ...I´am not so sure about, dude didnt accomplish much after Wings. I would have probably swaped him with sOs on this list.
I'm no MMA fan, but three WCS EU finals and two wins along with runner up at Blizzcon is not accomplishing nothing.
find the issue.
WCS EU had more than enough good players to make winning it or placing highly an achievement. Also remember MC went to WCS EU after barely losing to Roro (who went on to win it) in GSL round of 8 and both MMA went right back to korean and qualified for GSL both going to at least the top 16 so it is not like they would have had no chance if they stayed in Korea.
You shouldn't really value the results of last code s too highly, code s needs a few seasons to be stable again. With the total reset the results are a lot more volatile than before. I mean just look at MC, he had to play vs Nette, Losira, Penguin and Fantasy to get into the Ro16. Usually it's way harder to achieve the same
so, conveniently, NONE of MMA's results mean anything, because reasons
I am just saying that you shouldn't only look at the result of last code s and value it the same as the results of last year for example. The reset changed a lot and will take a while to have the best 32 players in code s again (i mean that probably was never the case, but close enough) I think MMA is probably a code s player, but i doubt he really is a semi finalist tbh
On April 15 2015 21:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am just saying that you shouldn't only look at the result of last code s and value it the same as the results of last year for example. The reset changed a lot and will take a while to have the best 32 players in code s again (i mean that probably was never the case, but close enough) I think MMA is probably a code s player, but i doubt he really is a semi finalist tbh
He mopped the floor with Dark and INnoVation, he definitely has what it takes given enough time to prepare.
On April 15 2015 21:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am just saying that you shouldn't only look at the result of last code s and value it the same as the results of last year for example. The reset changed a lot and will take a while to have the best 32 players in code s again (i mean that probably was never the case, but close enough) I think MMA is probably a code s player, but i doubt he really is a semi finalist tbh
do you know who is a code s semi-finalist?
the people who get to the code s semi finals.
the point of a tournament is to differentiate between reality and the fantasy land in your brain. in the tournament, they play the games. in your head, they don't.
do you know who consistently finishes in the round of 4 or higher in code s? no one. mvp and soo are the only players in the history of this game to do so with any consistency. does no one else count?
On April 15 2015 21:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am just saying that you shouldn't only look at the result of last code s and value it the same as the results of last year for example. The reset changed a lot and will take a while to have the best 32 players in code s again (i mean that probably was never the case, but close enough) I think MMA is probably a code s player, but i doubt he really is a semi finalist tbh
do you know who is a code s semi-finalist?
the people who get to the code s semi finals.
the point of a tournament is to differentiate between reality and the fantasy land in your brain. in the tournament, they play the games. in your head, they don't.
do you know who consistently finishes in the round of 4 or higher in code s? no one. mvp and soo are the only players in the history of this game to do so with any consistency. does no one else count?
YOu don't want to get my point, that's ok i guess.
My point is that code S isn't as strong as it was due to the total reset and the volatility it created. This will slowly change over time again, it already does this season. I don't even wanna say MMA is bad and his semi final doesn't mean anything (i mean he did beat Innovation and Dark in the ro16), but i also think the path to get to the semi was overall easier than the average path usually is. You probably won't agree with that?
MMA is pretty overrated here, but its ok, each one has his own oppinion. Just strange to see that players like Inno, sOs, Zest, Rain, herO, Soulkey etc are most likely getting ranked below the Stars of Wings, just because they arent Oldschool or coz they got a boring personality or whatever. Most players of WoL didnt stand a chance against the best guys from KeSPa during HotS tbh, I can say that even though I havent followed much of the 2nd half of HotS, What has Polt accomplished lately? (didnt follow the scene recently as I mentioned so dont bash me)
On April 15 2015 22:18 The_Red_Viper wrote: My point is that code S isn't as strong as was due to the total reset and the volatility it created. I don't even wanna say MMA is bad and his semi final doesn't mean anything (i mean he did beat Innovation and Dark in the ro16), but i also think the path to get to the semi was overall easier than the average path usually is. You probably won't agree with that?
MMA played: Dear, Dark (2x), INnoVation, TY to get to the semis.
PartinG played: First, MC, Maru (3 times), Solar
herO played: TaeJa, Curious, MC, Maru, Rogue
Life played: Gumiho (2x), Rain, YoDa, Soulkey, INnoVation
I would not say that this is necessarily easier overall. Some individually weaker players are in there, but most of those are still world class players.
On April 15 2015 22:19 Inzan1ty wrote: MMA is pretty overrated here, but its ok, each one has his own oppinion. Just strange to see that players like Inno, sOs, Zest, Rain, herO, Soulkey etc are most likely getting ranked below the Stars of Wings, just because they arent Oldschool or coz they got a boring personality or whatever. Most players of WoL didnt stand a chance against the best guys from KeSPa during HotS tbh, I can say that even though I havent followed much of the 2nd half of HotS, What has Polt accomplished lately? (didnt follow the scene recently as I mentioned so dont bash me)
On April 15 2015 22:19 Inzan1ty wrote: MMA is pretty overrated here, but its ok, each one has his own oppinion. Just strange to see that players like Inno, sOs, Zest, Rain, herO, Soulkey etc are most likely getting ranked below the Stars of Wings, just because they arent Oldschool or coz they got a boring personality or whatever. Most players of WoL didnt stand a chance against the best guys from KeSPa during HotS tbh, I can say that even though I havent followed much of the 2nd half of HotS, What has Polt accomplished lately? (didnt follow the scene recently as I mentioned so dont bash me)
Maru is a beast and all props to him. If he keeps playing like he is then he will probably end up top 5 in the future. But he hasn't accomplished as much as the other 3 (yet). He probably will in the future.
On April 15 2015 03:29 Frakkofff wrote: So many stupid people on this thread.
sOs... Seriously?
maybe YOU are the stupid one, and some people just show their own personal Top 10, because they dont need to get a TL+ ?
sOs easily belongs Top 10 IMO, he won some of the hardest contested and stacked tournaments ever, in fact by that, he won a lot of prize money in a short period of time, while MMA ...I´am not so sure about, dude didnt accomplish much after Wings. I would have probably put him somewhere around 11-13.
Wanna update that first list that I made pretty much out of the gut. Now I compared some results in liquipedia. Also read that hint of 3 out of 10 are not in.
On April 12 2015 04:30 KalWarkov wrote: i have a problem. i have 12 players left for 10 spots :O
Zest Nestea Innovation sOs Bomber Taeja Polt Parting MMA MC Life MVP
Hint: three of those aren't in the Top 10
these are for sure: sos & zest and, one out of parting, bomber or polt
- polt or - parting, bomber got overall better results in stacked tournaments and if bomber goes in one of parting or polt must go out. Really hard to pick but I go with parting and put polt out. - stephano
+ bomber: his performances are just too impressive to not be in this list + x: who is the missing link?
x could be again stephano or jaedong, san, liquid.hero, rain, and whoever else I forgot. Gotta guess here. As soo is in the list with a bunch of second places in a short period I go with jaedong who also got 2nd in global finals which usually is the most stacked tournament of the year.
On April 15 2015 21:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am just saying that you shouldn't only look at the result of last code s and value it the same as the results of last year for example. The reset changed a lot and will take a while to have the best 32 players in code s again (i mean that probably was never the case, but close enough) I think MMA is probably a code s player, but i doubt he really is a semi finalist tbh
Last code S had 32 best players in it... no idea why would you think it didnt? Those that didnt get in were beaten by those that did... so its only your subjective feeling that those dropped to A were better than those in S because reasons...
I bet you are one of those who thinks kespa players > all and couldnt accept that in code S there were more of those returning to korea, non-kespa guys than kespa players... so it wasnt "best players". But guess what... they were better than kespa players and deserved to be there. So 32 best players were in code S... the best of the best
How are some players among "best" 32 if they failed to get into best 32? Every single player in there had 2 chances to get in and those that lost both... well, were not best 32 at the time, obviously!
Also the way MMA played, he had every right to be in semi finals... saying you doubt he is a semi finalist is a bit silly... considering he beat guys you think are good enough to be there... and him/those guys he beat all did beat others you think are among "best" to get there... its not like someone put him there because they like him... or anyone else getting into code S
On April 17 2015 05:39 Xamo wrote: My guess: 10 Taeja 9 Parting 8 Polt 7 Innovation 6 MMA 5 Zest 4 Nestea 3 MC 2 Life 1 MVP
Taeja shouls not be in the list... but hey, this is TL !
Why should Polt be on the list but not TaeJa?
Good question... Perhaps both of them should not be in the list, according to their results in tier-1 tornaments. I just feel they will be there.
I Think TaeJa,Polt ,and MMA should have a spot in the top 10. Such consistency over such a long period of time should count for something, it's not like everyone who made GSL ro4 (which is something all of them did :D) can just go and dominate foreign tournaments for so long.
On April 17 2015 05:39 Xamo wrote: My guess: 10 Taeja 9 Parting 8 Polt 7 Innovation 6 MMA 5 Zest 4 Nestea 3 MC 2 Life 1 MVP
Taeja shouls not be in the list... but hey, this is TL !
Why should Polt be on the list but not TaeJa?
Good question... Perhaps both of them should not be in the list, according to their results in tier-1 tornaments. I just feel they will be there.
No way, Polt and Taeja could make the top 10 purely by longevity. Not to mention, Taeja has a wrist condition and Polt has to balance sc2 and his life as a student.
Taeja's tier-1 results aren't bad at all, not even with regards to GSL. He's had 4 ro8+ finishes in code S despite never winning and in each of those 4 runs he was knocked out by either a finalist or the eventual champ (Squirtle, MC, Life, and RorO). That might not sound like much, but it's actually more than Zest has done it and equivalent to Rain.
Polt pretty much only won the Super Tounament back in 2011 and made a ro4 in Korea but he has a multitude of tier-2 wins and some solid tier-1 placings abroad.
On April 18 2015 04:10 People_0f_Color wrote: Top 5 includes some variation of IMMVP, Nestea, Life, Innovation in some order.
The 5th person in the top 5 could be MMA, Taeja, or MC. I think Stephano or Polt MIGHT be in the top 10. Parting will 100% be in the top 10.
I don't think innovation deserves a top 5 spot to be honest. MC, Nestea, Mvp, Life and MMA are definitely secured top 5 IMO. They each deserve a spot above innovation.
Lovely article, Stuchiu. The statistical breadth, and the arguments you make for why any one player placed above another, are very compelling. I'll come back to this to re-read at my pleasure.
But if Zest makes the top 10 above Maru, that will be a huge blemish against the list for me. In fact, I disagree with such a low placement for Maru anyway, but putting the king of GomEXPvP ahead of him would just be salt in the wound.
Maru has a GSL and a SSL to his name, and neither of them came during periods of Terran dominance (Terran wasn't bleeding in 2013 by any means, but it was nothing like 1/1/1, BL/Infestor or Blink all-in). The first comes from 2013, the second comes from 2015. In 2014, he didn't get any landmark finishes, but he was the only relevant Terran in Korea for a good six months.
That's not just a "oh by the way, I guess we have to take it into account," that's the second greatest accomplishment of 2014 right after soO's 3 grand finals runs. He straight up brute forced his way into relevance with mechanical and multitasking genius when no other Terran could even make a blip on the radar.
If Zest's one and a half years of relevance, which include six to eight months wrapped up in a period of Protoss dominance worse than any other imbalance in this game's history, ends up mattering more than Maru's two and a half years that encompass ever imaginable meta... I won't even know.
I only started following SC2 in 2013, so I don't have much opinion on the people who came before. I accept the reality (unknown to me) that Mvp is #1. As for the rest, Nestea is just a soft drink to me. Polt, MMA, MarineKing, Leenock, and DRG all suffer. MC becomes a complete non-entity, a fifty-trick pony that never learned to run.
Here's my personal top 10 + obligatory Mvp:
10. Zest 9. Polt 8. Rain 7. soO 6. Taeja 5. PartinG 4. INnoVation 3. Maru 2. Life 1. Mvp
so many people saying taeja doesn't belong in the top 10.
his results are better than those of MMA, Polt, Inno and zest, he won multiple GSL level tournaments and got deep in almost every GSL level tournament he attended in his live. he consistently beat the flavour of the month top player, and always was one of the last terrans standing when the based balance gods were harshly against terran.
and i know many people like to disregard his skill and call him bad. here is a list of people he has a positive lifetime winrate against, jsut so you know how silly that argument is: Life, MC, Innovation, Zest, soo, marineking (though he is negative in games thanks to ipl fight club), DongRaeGu, Leenock, Maru (though they haven't played after 2012), MMA, Soulkey, Curious (in matches only, a 0-4 in an online cup finale hurt taeja badly in the games department), Nestea, Hyun, jjakji and probably many more.
he is also even with players like sos or Mvp, to add to his ludicrous amounts of positive match ups. taeja is insane both in peak skill and consistency, and anyone who denies that because "liquid bias LOL" is just silly.
On April 18 2015 11:05 Tanzklaue wrote: so many people saying taeja doesn't belong in the top 10.
his results are better than those of MMA, Polt, Inno and zest, he won multiple GSL level tournaments and got deep in almost every GSL level tournament he attended in his live. he consistently beat the flavour of the month top player, and always was one of the last terrans standing when the based balance gods were harshly against terran.
and i know many people like to disregard his skill and call him bad. here is a list of people he has a positive lifetime winrate against, jsut so you know how silly that argument is: Life, MC, Innovation, Zest, soo, marineking (though he is negative in games thanks to ipl fight club), DongRaeGu, Leenock, Maru (though they haven't played after 2012), MMA, Soulkey, Curious (in matches only, a 0-4 in an online cup finale hurt taeja badly in the games department), Nestea, Hyun, jjakji and probably many more.
he is also even with players like sos or Mvp, to add to his ludicrous amounts of positive match ups. taeja is insane both in peak skill and consistency, and anyone who denies that because "liquid bias LOL" is just silly.
On April 17 2015 05:39 Xamo wrote: My guess: 10 Taeja 9 Parting 8 Polt 7 Innovation 6 MMA 5 Zest 4 Nestea 3 MC 2 Life 1 MVP
Taeja shouls not be in the list... but hey, this is TL !
Why should Polt be on the list but not TaeJa?
Good question... Perhaps both of them should not be in the list, according to their results in tier-1 tornaments. I just feel they will be there.
No way, Polt and Taeja could make the top 10 purely by longevity. Not to mention, Taeja has a wrist condition and Polt has to balance sc2 and his life as a student.
Taeja's tier-1 results aren't bad at all, not even with regards to GSL. He's had 4 ro8+ finishes in code S despite never winning and in each of those 4 runs he was knocked out by either a finalist or the eventual champ (Squirtle, MC, Life, and RorO). That might not sound like much, but it's actually more than Zest has done it and equivalent to Rain.
Polt pretty much only won the Super Tounament back in 2011 and made a ro4 in Korea but he has a multitude of tier-2 wins and some solid tier-1 placings abroad.
Polt has been out of school since he acquired his P1-A visa a year and a half ago.
Polt would get COMPLETELY destroyed in Code A, let alone Code S. Lets be honest here, he is a big fish in a small pond. Anyone else who thinks otherwise is a mega-fanboy or simply delusional.
It's no slight against him really... he is a full-time student and part-time player, and considering that he has achieved something.
Maybe if he gave up student life, flew home and joined a kespa team-house and practiced solid for months... he might earn a spot and find himself in PL.
On April 18 2015 13:17 ElMeanYo wrote: Polt would get COMPLETELY destroyed in Code A, let alone Code S. Lets be honest here, he is a big fish in a small pond. Anyone else who thinks otherwise is a mega-fanboy or simply delusional.
It's no slight against him really... he is a full-time student and part-time player, and considering that he has achieved something.
Maybe if he gave up student life, flew home and joined a kespa team-house and practiced solid for months... he might earn a spot and find himself in PL.
7-5 vs MMA since 2013 5-5 vs Classic 10-11 vs Bomber
That doesn't look like a player who would get COMPLETELY destroyed in Code A, let alone Code S, to me.
On April 18 2015 13:17 ElMeanYo wrote: Polt would get COMPLETELY destroyed in Code A, let alone Code S. Lets be honest here, he is a big fish in a small pond. Anyone else who thinks otherwise is a mega-fanboy or simply delusional.
It's no slight against him really... he is a full-time student and part-time player, and considering that he has achieved something.
Maybe if he gave up student life, flew home and joined a kespa team-house and practiced solid for months... he might earn a spot and find himself in PL.
In his current form? Yeah, he probably wouldn't make code S, he looks a tad weaker than in the past. In 2013 and 2014, I absolutely think Polt could've made it.
I do think you slightly overestimate the competition of code A and low code S though. Many lesser Koreigners have come home and aren't doing too bad. Look at MMA, who's just off a ro4 gsl run. ByuL was way ahead of the pack in returning home from WCS AM in 2014 and now finds himself qualified for all 3 Korean tournaments and still consistently ranks near the top of SPL for two seasons in a row. HyuN is in the SSL ro16 while HerO and Patience recently made code S
Polt is one of the smartest players we've ever had. I'd go as far to say that he doesn't even need a Kespa team, he just needs to come home and heavily commit.
Yeah, Polt was a pretty all round damn good player for his entire period in Korea, and he obviously dominated once he moved abroad. It's pretty natural to deteriorate in skill while being abroad, so of course he wouldn't do as well now.
For me top 5 are the following: #1 Mvp #2 MC #3 Life #4 NesTea #5 TaeJa
Simply based on consistency for long periods of times and prestigious of the awards they got. I find MC way much consistent than Life and he stayed in top of the world for a very long period of time .. yet still playing and doing ok in many tournaments at the moment!
Next 5 are a bit tricky .. Cuz simply there are many players who can clam a spot there .. But I believe the following should be there: #6 MMA #7 INnoVation #8 Polt #9 Zest #10 Bomber
On April 18 2015 10:33 pure.Wasted wrote: Here's my personal top 10 + obligatory Mvp:
10. Zest 9. Polt 8. Rain 7. soO 6. Taeja 5. PartinG 4. INnoVation 3. Maru 2. Life 1. Mvp
Why is Rain so many times listed in the top 10? Have I missed any recent world-class results? He was my favourite protoss player once upon a time, but his results were not that good. No way he gets a better position tan sOs or soO.
On April 18 2015 13:17 ElMeanYo wrote: Polt would get COMPLETELY destroyed in Code A, let alone Code S. Lets be honest here, he is a big fish in a small pond. Anyone else who thinks otherwise is a mega-fanboy or simply delusional.
It's no slight against him really... he is a full-time student and part-time player, and considering that he has achieved something.
Maybe if he gave up student life, flew home and joined a kespa team-house and practiced solid for months... he might earn a spot and find himself in PL.
Bruh Yoda, Panic, MMA, Myungsik, Creator, HerO, Sacsri are all in Code S right now. You really think Polt couldn't do that? Come on now
So many people in this thread confuse being good today with being the best of all time. To deny Nestea is up around the top because he played in early SC2 just means that you don't understand the best of all time. He won GSLs in multiple years...unlike MC or MVP he kept his code S status and didn't drop into code A. He defeated a top 15 players in a GSL final...the dude is a lock to be near the top.
On April 18 2015 13:17 ElMeanYo wrote: Polt would get COMPLETELY destroyed in Code A, let alone Code S. Lets be honest here, he is a big fish in a small pond. Anyone else who thinks otherwise is a mega-fanboy or simply delusional.
It's no slight against him really... he is a full-time student and part-time player, and considering that he has achieved something.
Maybe if he gave up student life, flew home and joined a kespa team-house and practiced solid for months... he might earn a spot and find himself in PL.
Bruh Yoda, Panic, MMA, Myungsik, Creator, HerO, Sacsri are all in Code S right now. You really think Polt couldn't do that? Come on now
Any attempt on making this list now will ultimately devolve into a debate about whether to allow Life on it or not and then to endless arguments about the validity of results from different periods, as both the very old-timey GSLs and the last several years can be considered much weaker in competition than the heyday of KeSPA involvement.
I thought this was a new post and was very excited. Then I saw Maru at 13 and wondered wtf bogus kind of list this was. Then I realized it was from 3-4 years ago.
EPT![[image loading]](http://assets2.photos.mlg-cdn.com/shared/photos/3948/3948-width=800_height=400_fit=true.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/images/news/SonyEricssonSTARCRAFTIIOpenSeason2_009480057.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g9XhU6C.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gaming.com.tw/media/news_thumb/SC2/SC20930B002.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/HawaiianPig/GSL/blizzcupfinalsBORING.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8QDP2EB.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/b/b0/Maru_IPL4.jpg/250px-Maru_IPL4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/Day3Maru.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gosugamers.net/files/images/StarCraft%202/October%202013/dear-maru-1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img.plures.net/dfdc/e21e/efb3/16a8/007b/38ce/bd9e/914c.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1x7ckqJ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8TchdC1.jpg)
I think these lists also do a particularly great job of angering people though ^^ 
![[image loading]](http://www.linkslifegolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/goat_2D00_list_2D00_4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/0f/Mvp-SFMLG20130316-204436.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/index.php?title=File:Mvp-SFMLG20130316-204436.jpg&filetimestamp=20130319001559&)
Greatest Players of All Time
