EPTUpdate on HotS Balance - December 3 - Page 18
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TOAA
United States38 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 07 2014 19:38 Konranjyoutai wrote: Aligulac lumps too many variables together to be worthwhile. You need to narrow it down to premiere tournament matches and the winrates will skew a lot farther. Aligulac is fine, but aligualc =/= the state of balance. There's tons of quantitative and qualitative balance indicators around and aligulac is a good one amongst them. As you say, singling out Premiers is another good balance indicator - and especially in ZvT quite balanced lately I think. Zerg has been losing a little more against Protoss than Terran in many tournaments lately. None of those things are very long trends or very strongly out of place and thus not worth a balance change. Blizzard draws a very reasonable picture of zerg matchups in my opinion and once the <45% winrate maps in ZvX are gone - Catallena, Deadwing, Foxtrot, Nimbus - Zerg could even start to dominate slightly with the right maps. | ||
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p14c
Vatican City State431 Posts
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MarlieChurphy
United States2063 Posts
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now. Imho, BW was more balanced but still had some pretty big imbalances. The way the archon worked vs zerg, especially late game when you had tons and maybe even dark archons as well. (the game manual actually says zerglings are the counter to archons) If not for the buggy RNG AI of the reaver it would be super imba. (which is why they didn't put it in sc2, probably too hard to recreate that if at all). And then there were a bunch of useless upgrades, and units that rarely if ever saw any play. Scouts, queens, infested terrans, valkyries and devours etc. And at the really top level, some units were almost obsoleted by skill, such as scourges or lurkers in small numbers. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now. Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster. sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol. | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now. while some of those people are obviously biased ( everyone who doesnt random is to some degree) it doesnt take a genius to see these maps are terran favoured, they were designed to be so becuase they were made for a time when terran was struggling so hard only 2 Ts made code s. prettymuch common sense On December 07 2014 21:56 xelnaga_empire wrote: Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster. sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol. the widowmine patch is mainly because there is no other way to open in PvT other than collosus that is as viable, and Ht openings really only work as a surprise using one tournament as example is just daft, heck i could cherrypick too and point out marines kings run where he went 11-6 against protosses including parting zest and hero which are some of the strongest protosses in the world despite marinekings resutls from 2014 being prettymuch non-existant its almost as stupid as my basing ZvT off just inno vs so0 gsl finals despite so0 playing nowhere near his best in that series | ||
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Samx
Singapore149 Posts
On December 07 2014 21:56 xelnaga_empire wrote: Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster. sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol. Zest and sOs combined vs MK and sky high won a total of 0 macro games iirc. It was allin after allin from 2 of the top 4 Protoss (the other 2 bring cj hero and rain). The games they tried to play macro. They lost. It is telling when the 2 best protoss in the world was not confident of playing macro games against MK and skyhigh whom I do not think many would put as top 10 terran right now. (Bogus, Taeja, flash, bomber, cure, ty, maru etc). The top protosses are resorting to trickery rather than playing the game straight up now. | ||
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
On December 07 2014 21:56 xelnaga_empire wrote: Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster. sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol. Don't stick your head in the sand. Since the WM patch (June 5), Terran have won 12 premier tournaments. sOs's win today makes for a total of 4 Protoss premier tournament victories. Zerg has five. If you want to extend it out to finalists, it supports the trend even more: 21 Terrans, 9 Protoss, 12 Zerg. In DreamHack Winter, Bunny was the only Terran to lose out of group stage, no other Terran lost a series to a Protoss in the entire tournament, and no Terran lost a series in the finals to a non-Terran except Taeja in a 3-2 vs Life. Even if you look at the tournaments that spanned pre- and post-2.1.3 (WCS AM and EU), you can see Terran dominate hard in the groups played post-patch in AM and split evenly in EU. Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments Protoss used to win everything, yes, and that was bad, but don't claim that Protoss are still going around winning everything. They're not. It's a combination of both the maps and the WM and all of the evidence supports it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 08 2014 00:27 Samx wrote: Zest and sOs combined vs MK and sky high won a total of 0 macro games iirc. It was allin after allin from 2 of the top 4 Protoss (the other 2 bring cj hero and rain). The games they tried to play macro. They lost. It is telling when the 2 best protoss in the world was not confident of playing macro games against MK and skyhigh whom I do not think many would put as top 10 terran right now. (Bogus, Taeja, flash, bomber, cure, ty, maru etc). The top protosses are resorting to trickery rather than playing the game straight up now. Woaaah... I didn't see Zest, so I withhold my judgment for that series. But sOs won 3 games in which he opened pretty standard macro against MK. Also the game vs skyhigh on KSS was pretty standard, just that skyhigh fell over against a proxied first gate (which sadly isn't a huge commitment for Protoss). On Catallena and Foxtrot MarineKing died to rather simple pokes, sOs just choose to actually kill MK rather than tech up, but at no point did he rely on cheesish or allinish moves. Even if his killmoves had failed, he would have still been in a balanced position for a standard game. And on Nimbus he played a very macro-oriented phoenix/Colossus game. Also it's sOs. The games he showcased were pretty defensive in comparison to his usual style. ^^ | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15914 Posts
On December 08 2014 00:27 Samx wrote: Zest and sOs combined vs MK and sky high won a total of 0 macro games iirc. It was allin after allin from 2 of the top 4 Protoss (the other 2 bring cj hero and rain). The games they tried to play macro. They lost. It is telling when the 2 best protoss in the world was not confident of playing macro games against MK and skyhigh whom I do not think many would put as top 10 terran right now. (Bogus, Taeja, flash, bomber, cure, ty, maru etc). The top protosses are resorting to trickery rather than playing the game straight up now. it doesn't matter how the games are won, a victory is a victory. if a race wins many of their games with allins it's often a result of the metagame, because the other race is forced to play greedy to have a chance at competing in a macrogame. terrans know that protoss has strong allins but despite that they stick to their builds and try to hold the allins with them. are they doing it because they like losing? no, they do it because they can't play much more safe if they want to compete with protoss in a macrogame. you can't just look at the earlygame or the mid/lategame in a vacuum. every stage of the game is influenced by the other stages. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3348 Posts
it doesn't matter how the games are won, a victory is a victory. Don't agree with this assessment at all Good Protoss players can always take tournaments off the other two races whatever the balance state is at, because they can win by usage of surperior mindgames and well executed gambles. Zerg can do this too, to a lesser degree and Terran hardly can do any of this at all. So if you balance around statistics alone, you'd end up with Terran being stronger in macro games, then Zerg, then Protoss. Where what should be balanced in reality is so that all the races have the option to play macro AND mindgame orientated play. This is not the state we're at as of now, but whatever the case, you cannot look at number of wins alone. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 08 2014 00:49 Big J wrote: Woaaah... I didn't see Zest, so I withhold my judgment for that series. But sOs won 3 games in which he opened pretty standard macro against MK. Also the game vs skyhigh on KSS was pretty standard, just that skyhigh fell over against a proxied first gate (which sadly isn't a huge commitment for Protoss). On Catallena and Foxtrot MarineKing died to rather simple pokes, sOs just choose to actually kill MK rather than tech up, but at no point did he rely on cheesish or allinish moves. Even if his killmoves had failed, he would have still been in a balanced position for a standard game. And on Nimbus he played a very macro-oriented phoenix/Colossus game. Also it's sOs. The games he showcased were pretty defensive in comparison to his usual style. ^^ I wouldn't call those games macro... He proxied a Gateway in one game and a Stargate in another. And the fast Zealot/Stalker/MsC pressure is actually bad against players who react correctly and puts you behind economically. The casters were just as amazed as I was that it actually worked like it did. On December 08 2014 01:12 ejozl wrote: Don't agree with this assessment at all Good Protoss players can always take tournaments off the other two races whatever the balance state is at, because they can win by usage of surperior mindgames and well executed gambles. Zerg can do this too, to a lesser degree and Terran hardly can do any of this at all. So if you balance around statistics alone, you'd end up with Terran being stronger in macro games, then Zerg, then Protoss. Where what should be balanced in reality is so that all the races have the option to play macro AND mindgame orientated play. This might be the state we're at as of now, but whatever the case, you cannot look at number of wins alone. It's common knowledge that Protoss is weakest in the midgame so I don't know what you're talking about. Also the fact that top Protosses are resorting to cheese/trickery to beat average players like Marine King and SkyHigh with no recent achievements to speak of is telling. You certainly can win this way, but you shouldn't HAVE to. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 08 2014 01:12 ejozl wrote: Don't agree with this assessment at all Good Protoss players can always take tournaments off the other two races whatever the balance state is at, because they can win by usage of surperior mindgames and well executed gambles. Zerg can do this too, to a lesser degree and Terran hardly can do any of this at all. So if you balance around statistics alone, you'd end up with Terran being stronger in macro games, then Zerg, then Protoss. Where what should be balanced in reality is so that all the races have the option to play macro AND mindgame orientated play. This might be the state we're at as of now, but whatever the case, you cannot look at number of wins alone. Terran has more than enough "mindgames" against Zerg and against Terran though. Probably more than Zerg has against Terran. And they are mostly reasonably scoutable tricks happening between 7-12mins, not half techtrees sitting at the weirdest locations on the map. And though winrate isn't everything, there's nothing wrong with Protoss having to be aggressive to win. If that makes top Protoss win enough (and not too much) against top Terrans than it is balanced. What you are talking about is a design matter and has nothing to do with balance. On December 08 2014 01:23 DinoMight wrote: I wouldn't call those games macro... He proxied a Gateway in one game and a Stargate in another. And the fast Zealot/Stalker/MsC pressure is actually bad against players who react correctly and puts you behind economically. The casters were just as amazed as I was that it actually worked like it did. I didn't talk about the Stargate for a reason. That's 1 of 5 games, every player cheeses 1 of 5 games, that's not indicative of anything. That such pressure moves set you slightly behind economically if they fail doesn't stop the games from being macro games from sOs side. Every race does that kind of stuff, getting a few extra zerglings to try and kill a pylon, sending a zealot over to the zerg base, building 3reapers instead of one. If that kind of stuff is perfectly defended the opponent gets a tiny advantage. But you still have 48% winchance in a balanced game. I'm not even really denying that sOs might (or might not, the matchup doesn't look that grim at all when certain players just sit back and defend well) have had to rely on a little bit of cheesy play in the matchup, but given that MK just rolled over to a chronoboosted gateway turns the chosen examples useless to showcase that. Still like the proposed change though. WMs main use in TvP seems to be for early worker harassment (unchanged), defense against single units like oracles (single damage unchanged, only tincy little bit less splash on the stalkerball when killing that stalker) and then to prevent options from Protoss. I don't think it really brings back Templar, but it may help a little. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
Yup. That's also the reason why my T is 3 division levels higher than my P or Z. P macro is just much more overwhelming and Z is just too frustrating to play. T is, stim and press A and win. T is also the most forgiving race for beginners. Over-prepared and built those extra bunkers (static defense)? Just salvage them. Forgot to build depots and got supply stuck? Just call down the extra supply. Forgot to scan / mule? Just save them for the gold base. By FAR the easiest race to play, and I'm looking at objective factors. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On December 07 2014 09:16 keglu wrote: Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups. its Aligulac. Aligulac. You dont ever cite Aligulac as data, it's the most flawed database that allows people to cherry-pick non-important matches to skew data. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 08 2014 03:53 parkufarku wrote: its Aligulac. Aligulac. You dont ever cite Aligulac as data, it's the most flawed database that allows people to cherry-pick non-important matches to skew data. Sorry, before your last post explaining current state of the game so clearly i did not have any better sources of information than Aligulac. Now with your post closing debate i'll be using your indisputable opinion as facts. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 08 2014 03:57 keglu wrote: Sorry, before your last post explaining current state of the game so clearly i did not have any better sources of information than Aligulac. Now with your post closing debate i'll be using your indisputable opinion as facts. Just forget about him, he's a competitive troll. And if you ever need a good laugh after a bad day, just read here his recent "balance suggestions" (lol). | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 07 2014 21:56 xelnaga_empire wrote: sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol. This is some mighty fine cherry picking. Did you know that Marineking was on a 13-game win streak vs Protoss prior to his semifinals vs Zest today? I'm not saying either race is OP or that there is even a significant balance issue, but surely you see the flaws in picking the champion and using his record to determine whether or not X is OP? | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On December 08 2014 04:04 TheDwf wrote: Just forget about him, he's a competitive troll. And if you ever need a good laugh after a bad day, just read here his recent "balance suggestions" (lol). I'm the troll? Says the biased Terran troll who writes the most ridiculous stuff. "Stargate is regularly used in PvT.": + Show Spoiler + Your balance proposals: + Show Spoiler + What a joke. Makes for a really good laugh though. | ||
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