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On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
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On December 08 2014 04:04 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2014 21:56 xelnaga_empire wrote:
sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol. This is some mighty fine cherry picking. Did you know that Marineking was on a 13-game win streak vs Protoss prior to his semifinals vs Zest today? I'm not saying either race is OP or that there is even a significant balance issue, but surely you see the flaws in picking the champion and using his record to determine whether or not X is OP?
You can add the IEM results to this. Are you saying top tier Protoss are struggling now?
The point is, David Kim isn't even sure about whether the map pool has any affect on the balance. If you look at David Kim's history, here is his record:
1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans.
2) Over buffed Protoss in HotS, over nerfed Terran, lead to PvsP at practically every other final, and lead to another huge exodus of spectators and fans.
David Kim doesn't seem to be very good at his job. And yes, top tier Protoss are not struggling now - it's clear as night and day.
Doesn't it make sense to see what effect the new map pool has before nerfing Terran? Heck, we don't need a new map pool - it's quite possible if we stick with the current map pool, we'll be seeing top tier Protoss winning premier tournaments anyways.
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On December 09 2014 00:20 FanaticCZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see. Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won).
No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak.
Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
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On December 09 2014 00:22 xelnaga_empire wrote:
1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans.
What was overly buffed? The queen range that was (and still is) necessary to not die to hellion/hellbat attacks, bunker rushes, reapers and gate allins? Anything else?
The only other zerg buff in the year preceding HotS was overlord speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586
2) Over buffed Protoss in HotS,
Again, how? The mothership core that took a year to get nerfed maybe? Phoenix range and Oracle speed?
Still not sure it this can be called "over buffed" compared to what the other races got. Especially terran.
over nerfed Terran,
I'm sure you don't mean this in HotS, since terran has been, by far, the most buffed and least nerfed race since its release.
So... what has been over nerfed for terran?
Let's see... snipe was nerfed against non-psionic, more than one year before HotS. Three months before, EMP radius got nerfed. Is that far back enough or were there other huge terran nerfs before this that caused the rise of protoss in 2014?
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On December 09 2014 01:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 00:20 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see. Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?). yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!! BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection. Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals. And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
lol dude... i think ure takin my post way too seriously and consider it some kind of a balance whine when in fact i was just pointing out that what the guy said about the first win being leenocks mlg was wrong and the only thing that id whine about is what i said about nerchio and it could be said about all the other patchzergs of that era. How surprising that in general theyve all stopped winning with the release of hots. 
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On December 09 2014 03:43 FanaticCZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 01:04 Big J wrote:On December 09 2014 00:20 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see. Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?). yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!! BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection. Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals. And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE. lol dude... i think ure takin my post way too seriously and consider it some kind of a balance whine when in fact i was just pointing out that what the guy said about the first win being leenocks mlg was wrong and the only thing that id whine about is what i said about nerchio and it could be said about all the other patchzergs of that era. How surprising that in general theyve all stopped winning with the release of hots.
Lol. You're the one putting some exact date on bl/infestor and evading any discussion about foreigner skill back in those days. If you have no follow up to prove what you postulate better not post it at all next time. 
Player bashing isnt that nice.
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I like how some discuss the Bloord Winfestor Balance again
As if it wasn't discussed enough and even the most biased casters and players afterwards called it OP, so we better let that case rest.
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On December 09 2014 01:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 00:20 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see. Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?). yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!! BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection. Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals. And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
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On December 09 2014 06:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 03:43 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 09 2014 01:04 Big J wrote:On December 09 2014 00:20 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see. Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?). yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!! BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection. Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals. And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE. lol dude... i think ure takin my post way too seriously and consider it some kind of a balance whine when in fact i was just pointing out that what the guy said about the first win being leenocks mlg was wrong and the only thing that id whine about is what i said about nerchio and it could be said about all the other patchzergs of that era. How surprising that in general theyve all stopped winning with the release of hots. Lol. You're the one putting some exact date on bl/infestor and evading any discussion about foreigner skill back in those days. If you have no follow up to prove what you postulate better not post it at all next time. Player bashing isnt that nice.
lol what have i done???? all i said was or atleast tried to say is the game seem some up balanced ( as long as new maps help zerg a bit) right now and to rethink this patch. how did it get to this lol.
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On December 09 2014 06:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 03:43 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 09 2014 01:04 Big J wrote:On December 09 2014 00:20 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see. Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?). yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!! BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection. Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals. And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE. lol dude... i think ure takin my post way too seriously and consider it some kind of a balance whine when in fact i was just pointing out that what the guy said about the first win being leenocks mlg was wrong and the only thing that id whine about is what i said about nerchio and it could be said about all the other patchzergs of that era. How surprising that in general theyve all stopped winning with the release of hots. Lol. You're the one putting some exact date on bl/infestor and evading any discussion about foreigner skill back in those days. If you have no follow up to prove what you postulate better not post it at all next time. Player bashing isnt that nice.
I wasnt trying to start any discussion about that in the first place. The guy said it was 6 months even though it was 9 months and then he said the first zerg win was three months later than it really was so i was just correcting him. And i dont mind bashing patchzergs.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 09 2014 06:51 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 01:04 Big J wrote:On December 09 2014 00:20 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see. Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?). yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!! BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection. Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals. And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE. You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it. BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea. Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
That is not as true as it sounds. At the end of WoL MC showed us the way. It was not crystal clear style, but he showed the light! Basically you would have a Mothership, 4-6 Carriers(!!!), some Templars, some Colossi, the rest is... Void Rays. The strategy was this - you have a MS with cloaking field, so units are invincible unless mis-control. Then you have Templars for feedback(Infestor) and storm(Corruptors), Carriers are there to zone out Infestors, Colossi are there to zone out infestors & kill static D, Void Rays are there to kill Corruptor deathball. MC won with this on Daybreak. It was easy, fast and clean. I think it was against Nerchio, but it is long time, so cannot be sure. But the HotS were near, no one actually made this style perfect. Although this style was shown just once(I think) at a pro level, I used it pretty often(as a spoon Protoss myself) and it is very easy to play it. I actually think with this style it is harder to play BL/infestor style, because you cannot use infestors. It is near to impossible and without them(and without Vipers, because WoL) you can just march and win. It is slow, boring - but sure.
Please note, that this strategy had exact numbers which I forgot. But it was unbeatable army. The only way how to lose was your own error, since in WoL there are no Vipers  (and I still think it is plainly stupid you can abduct MS and that you have to have a hero unit in a no-hero game(herO and HerO do not count :D) (I know someone would otherwise play them )
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On December 09 2014 07:42 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 06:51 plogamer wrote:On December 09 2014 01:04 Big J wrote:On December 09 2014 00:20 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see. Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?). yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!! BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection. Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals. And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE. You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it. BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea. Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU). That is not as true as it sounds. At the end of WoL MC showed us the way. It was not crystal clear style, but he showed the light! Basically you would have a Mothership, 4-6 Carriers(!!!), some Templars, some Colossi, the rest is... Void Rays. The strategy was this - you have a MS with cloaking field, so units are invincible unless mis-control. Then you have Templars for feedback(Infestor) and storm(Corruptors), Carriers are there to zone out Infestors, Colossi are there to zone out infestors & kill static D, Void Rays are there to kill Corruptor deathball. MC won with this on Daybreak. It was easy, fast and clean. I think it was against Nerchio, but it is long time, so cannot be sure. But the HotS were near, no one actually made this style perfect. Although this style was shown just once(I think) at a pro level, I used it pretty often(as a spoon Protoss myself) and it is very easy to play it. I actually think with this style it is harder to play BL/infestor style, because you cannot use infestors. It is near to impossible and without them(and without Vipers, because WoL) you can just march and win. It is slow, boring - but sure. Please note, that this strategy had exact numbers which I forgot. But it was unbeatable army. The only way how to lose was your own error, since in WoL there are no Vipers (and I still think it is plainly stupid you can abduct MS and that you have to have a hero unit in a no-hero game(herO and HerO do not count :D) (I know someone would otherwise play them )
It would be impossible for even today's zerg to win vs P's deathball without MS abudct though.
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On December 08 2014 21:08 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2014 04:19 parkufarku wrote:On December 08 2014 04:04 TheDwf wrote:On December 08 2014 03:57 keglu wrote:On December 08 2014 03:53 parkufarku wrote:On December 07 2014 09:16 keglu wrote:
Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups.
its Aligulac. Aligulac. You dont ever cite Aligulac as data, it's the most flawed database that allows people to cherry-pick non-important matches to skew data. Sorry, before your last post explaining current state of the game so clearly i did not have any better sources of information than Aligulac. Now with your post closing debate i'll be using your indisputable opinion as facts. Just forget about him, he's a competitive troll. And if you ever need a good laugh after a bad day, just read here his recent " balance suggestions" (lol). I'm the troll? Says the biased Terran troll who writes the most ridiculous stuff. "Stargate is regularly used in PvT.": + Show Spoiler +Your balance proposals: + Show Spoiler +What a joke. Makes for a really good laugh though. Stargate is regularly used in PvT. Are you denieing that? Also, those balance suggestions were excellent, well explained and backed by data opposite to the rubbish you came up with.
He specifically said Stargate opening is regularly used in PvT.
It's no surprise that you come to support his extreme T-sided views, after we saw the type of stuff you post about Terran and other races.
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Change the base damgae + shield. Need to fix zvt too.
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On December 09 2014 06:51 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 01:04 Big J wrote:On December 09 2014 00:20 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see. Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?). yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!! BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection. Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals. And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE. You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it. BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game. Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea. Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
It's not arbitrary, I gave a good reasoning.
In not a single sentence did I even bring up PvZ or TvZ, I merely stated that top foreigners were capable of beating top Koreans at that time. That's whwere I mentioned some Protoss players.
Blabla about skillcap is just that, meaningless made up talk to justify whatever you want. The skillcap in SC2 isnt humanly reachable, that's a fact.
Those skill gap talks are attributed in comparison to early-mid 2013 when only foreigners that went to Korea had a chance in HotS not WoL. Since then the foreign WCS have been more and more challenged by Koreans, while in S1 2013 it was only 4 Koreans in EU Premier.
That Bl/Inf was too strong is undeniable. But that circlejerking about it is absolute crap. Not one statistic indicates that that era was worse than 2011 or early 2014, yet people like you keep pretending it was the pinnacle of imbalance and should have been burned with fire before it even happened. It's funny, when Terran gets buffed you argue that we should let the metagame settle even though Ts win everything in the first 3months. Whem Z got buffed 2012, you date back their dominance period to the patchdate, even though there was no immidiate dominance. Why date Bl/Inf to the queen patch and not date blink era to the beginning of HotS. Just like with May 2012 Zerg, early 2013 Protoss already had the tools and maps for blink-apocalypse, hence by the same logic you apply to zerg, protoss was dominating one and a half years, lol. I tell you why, because after growing fond of 50% Terran represntation and tournament wins a ton of people here couldnt cope with the fact that for once Zerg was in the lead with all it's implications. Some may have been patchzergs, the greatest part of them were just players that had been around all along but had previously never had a fair chance to show their skills.
It's a shame that it is so accepted to openly bash topplayers of 2012. Show some class and respect, noone is denying that Mvp or Thorzain were great players in 2011 either. But somehow this community has complexes about new faces emerging. Of course most zergs didnt break through before late 2011. Of course every Terran who is still around already made a name for himself in 2011. It would be hilarious if they had been around, yet unseccessful with a balance like back then. But that'a not a reason to give them stupid names and pretend they are bad players. Everybody is carried a bit by balance, but winning a tournament is still a great achievment taking tons and tons of skill.
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Basically blizzard is saying: that zerg is underperforming against terran and protoss, and protoss is underperforming against terran.
In the first scenario if one race(zerg) is underperforming against the other 2(terran,protoss), the logical answer to this: is buff the supuse underpowered race(zerg) or nerf the other 2(terran, protoss), but david kim and his team answer is: "nah, is just the map pool".
In the second scenario if protoss still doing well against zerg but not so well against terran, a normal answer to this is: maybe is the map pool, but the answer of david kim and his team is: "we should nerf terran in the pvt".
Personally i dont know where is the common sense to make this balance decisions.
PD: Is a suggestion that ventral sacs upgrade gona be free after get lair, like was made with hellbat transfromation, this change could give more options to play to the zerg and not current straight and predictable gameplay of the zerg. And also could change a little the current script of terran and protoss of 1000 ways to how to kill a zerg, XD.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 09 2014 07:58 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 07:42 deacon.frost wrote:On December 09 2014 06:51 plogamer wrote:On December 09 2014 01:04 Big J wrote:On December 09 2014 00:20 FanaticCZ wrote:On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote:On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote:On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote:
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly. seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling. What is stupidity? BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember. Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013. Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself... This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so. The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see. Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?). yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!! BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection. Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals. And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE. You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it. BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea. Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU). That is not as true as it sounds. At the end of WoL MC showed us the way. It was not crystal clear style, but he showed the light! Basically you would have a Mothership, 4-6 Carriers(!!!), some Templars, some Colossi, the rest is... Void Rays. The strategy was this - you have a MS with cloaking field, so units are invincible unless mis-control. Then you have Templars for feedback(Infestor) and storm(Corruptors), Carriers are there to zone out Infestors, Colossi are there to zone out infestors & kill static D, Void Rays are there to kill Corruptor deathball. MC won with this on Daybreak. It was easy, fast and clean. I think it was against Nerchio, but it is long time, so cannot be sure. But the HotS were near, no one actually made this style perfect. Although this style was shown just once(I think) at a pro level, I used it pretty often(as a spoon Protoss myself) and it is very easy to play it. I actually think with this style it is harder to play BL/infestor style, because you cannot use infestors. It is near to impossible and without them(and without Vipers, because WoL) you can just march and win. It is slow, boring - but sure. Please note, that this strategy had exact numbers which I forgot. But it was unbeatable army. The only way how to lose was your own error, since in WoL there are no Vipers (and I still think it is plainly stupid you can abduct MS and that you have to have a hero unit in a no-hero game(herO and HerO do not count :D) (I know someone would otherwise play them ) It would be impossible for even today's zerg to win vs P's deathball without MS abudct though.
The point is - you could win without archon toilet. Which was random as hell.
On December 09 2014 13:17 FaiFai wrote:
Basically blizzard is saying: that zerg is underperforming against terran and protoss, and protoss is underperforming against terran.
In the first scenario if one race(zerg) is underperforming against the other 2(terran,protoss), the logical answer to this: is buff the supuse underpowered race(zerg) or nerf the other 2(terran, protoss), but david kim and his team answer is: "nah, is just the map pool".
In the second scenario if protoss still doing well against zerg but not so well against terran, a normal answer to this is: maybe is the map pool, but the answer of david kim and his team is: "we should nerf terran in the pvt".
Personally i dont know where is the common sense to make this balance decisions.
PD: Is a suggestion that ventral sacs upgrade gona be free after get lair, like was made with hellbat transfromation, this change could give more options to play to the zerg and not current straight and predictable gameplay of the zerg. And also could change a little the current script of terran and protoss of 1000 ways to how to kill a zerg, XD.
I don't understand why is everyone complaining like this would be a huge nerf to Terran. There are Terrans winning PvT without ghosts/mines, this won't affect so much, some of the biggest Terrans may even not notice there was a nerf...
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On December 09 2014 18:32 deacon.frost wrote:
I don't understand why is everyone complaining like this would be a huge nerf to Terran. There are Terrans winning PvT without ghosts/mines, this won't affect so much, some of the biggest Terrans may even not notice there was a nerf...
Well... going partially back on a mine buff from 9 months ago would be the biggest terran nerf since nearly three years ago. So obviously terrans have to whine. Blizzard is clearly trying to ruin the few chances they have to win any game.
Hell they didn't nerf infestors back in the day, until *four* entire months after the queen patch, and now, only a bit more than 4 months after the mine+thor buffs, they're already talking about maybe going partially back on an old buff that got "re-buffed" in july? That's unforgivable.
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On December 09 2014 02:28 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 00:22 xelnaga_empire wrote:
1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans. What was overly buffed? The queen range that was (and still is) necessary to not die to hellion/hellbat attacks, bunker rushes, reapers and gate allins? Anything else? The only other zerg buff in the year preceding HotS was overlord speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586 Again, how? The mothership core that took a year to get nerfed maybe? Phoenix range and Oracle speed? Still not sure it this can be called "over buffed" compared to what the other races got. Especially terran. I'm sure you don't mean this in HotS, since terran has been, by far, the most buffed and least nerfed race since its release. So... what has been over nerfed for terran? Let's see... snipe was nerfed against non-psionic, more than one year before HotS. Three months before, EMP radius got nerfed. Is that far back enough or were there other huge terran nerfs before this that caused the rise of protoss in 2014?
While I don't think that the HotS PvP era was as bad as the end of WoL, it's undeniable that the queen patch almost killed Starcraft 2 as a legitimate competitive game and it was only saved by the not-so-timely arrival of HotS and of Kespa players, but I'm pretty sure spectators and players have dropped hugely in numbers during that era, whereas they're pretty stable right now.
It's not so much that the queen patch made a race too powerful (although it certainly did, mind you), it's that it promoted the most boring and easy-to-perform playstyle ever witnessed. No namers were able to take games off of Koreans they should never have dreamt to play against, and did so with a boring as fuck strat.
Zerg players who were hailed for their skill and multitasking performed comparatively worse in that time, coincidentally enough (think DRG).
I'm fine with Terran getting nerfed, because that's the way it always has been, but I hope Blizzard won't overbuff a boring playstyle in the process, leading to 6 months of the most boring mirror matchup finals...
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Let's not confuse boring and balance. Some people find zvz boring as a mu, although I think it's such an entertaining match where you try to eek out every small advantage to get ahead. How the matchup have evolved showed that the players have clearly evolved and understood that the roach is the "imba" unit against another Zerg player. It just so happens that the opponent can make the same unit as well. I don't think anyone will claim zvz to be unbalanced.
Everyone have their own likes and dislike, artosis like 40 min long macro games, some like in base proxy 2 gates against hero, some like pulling the boys, I think we should not let our idea of what's boring and exciting cloud our perspective of balance.
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EPT
