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I wish they stopped patching every 2 months so the players have time to adapt and create a new meta.
For instance, hellbats buff last patch :
1st step : terrans use it as a cheese and get plenty of 10 mins wins
2nd step : zergs adapt, scout more, play more defensive, delay 3rd base build roach warrens and spines
3rd step (not done yet) : terrans get advantage of the new meta by wether faking hellbats into fast 3rd CC or use them just for a small pressure while getting tanks and going for a long mech macro game or whatever all the smart terans outhere can think of...
Anyway, this patch has changed the meta already, just give it time to stabilize to see if there is an imbalance or not!
Morevover, mines and medivacs are early/mid game weapons, and terrans have no problem with early/mid game. If the issue is about dealing with zerg/protoss late game, buff late game stuff such as ghosts snipe range or maybe raven speed and such.
So dear David Kim if you read this : it's summer time, weather is beautiful sea is warm and girls are hot : go on a holliday break and tell your balance team to go surfing instead of coming to the office, enjoy some pina colada, and don't come back until october 
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Photon Overcharge against ground only would help a little with Medivacs but due to the threat of Oracles, I doubt we would see Banshees make a comeback. Proxy Oracle could detect the Oracle, create a Phoenix afterward and the Banshee is dead, Cloak or not.
One change that might help without cutting too deeply in defense would be to change the MSC speed to that of the old Overlord (around 0.88) and add a MSC Speed upgrade at the Cybernetics Core at 50/50/110.
This would weaken Blink attacks because the MSC would take far longer to get across the map and would be far more vulnerable to get sniped by Marines. By putting the upgrade at the Cybernetics Core, Protoss can still opt for a fast MSC, but it would delay Warp Gate, meaning that the Blink attack is delayed.
This would also delay sending the MSC straight to the Terran mineral line as it soon as it spawns.
As a result, Oracles and Dark Templar would become a little more favored for all-ins, which share a defense in the Engineer Bay via Turrets.
Thoughts?
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On July 02 2014 02:09 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
"Let's buff the two most annoying Terran units, and do nothing to promote other styles of play."
Ok.
So...true...
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make tanks like collosus. always seege mode, can move and no splash damage to allied units
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@Teoita
First of all, the main arguments are: a) We need to take a look at the protoss earlygame as a whole b) we shouldn't balance for mirrors.
In that light, I listed a number of things which provide a defender's advantage to Protoss and while it's difficult to measure how powerful they are in a vacuum, the things in conjunction currently give Protoss the strongest earlygame defender's advantage of any race. I'd argue, and you'd probably agree, that PO plays a crucial part, but if you'd give PO to terran, do you think they would be similarly safe? I think not.
The reason I brought out FFs is because a large sentry count allows you to cut up a push and kill half of it virtually for free, neutralizing the push and giving you a large army advantage. This is still as common and effective as ever, as Life continues to demonstrate with his roach/hydra pushes.
And I agree that P gets tech up faster (because of the PO), but is that a good thing. I argued that it actually makes the MU more volatile because tech hits harder and with more varied ways.
Regarding your skylla (a) and charybdis (b), to me that sounds like a less coin-flippy way to die because scouting is key there. You can theoretically see how greedy/aggressive your opponent is playing, it's much more difficult to scout for that twilight/DS combo on another huge map.
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On July 02 2014 21:22 tadL wrote:make tanks like collosus. always seege mode, can move and no splash damage to allied units
that would make tvz have 100% winrate
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Buff everything for all I care but please, PLEASE not something that will encourage even more MMMM. It's been mentioned before and I'll mention it again for the small chance Blizzard will notice. We want more strategies/ options!
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Italy12246 Posts
On July 02 2014 21:24 Ghanburighan wrote:
@Teoita
First of all, the main arguments are: a) We need to take a look at the protoss earlygame as a whole b) we shouldn't balance for mirrors.
In that light, I listed a number of things which provide a defender's advantage to Protoss and while it's difficult to measure how powerful they are in a vacuum, the things in conjunction currently give Protoss the strongest earlygame defender's advantage of any race. I'd argue, and you'd probably agree, that PO plays a crucial part, but if you'd give PO to terran, do you think they would be similarly safe? I think not.
The reason I brought out FFs is because a large sentry count allows you to cut up a push and kill half of it virtually for free, neutralizing the push and giving you a large army advantage. This is still as common and effective as ever, as Life continues to demonstrate with his roach/hydra pushes.
And I agree that P gets tech up faster (because of the PO), but is that a good thing. I argued that it actually makes the MU more volatile because tech hits harder and with more varied ways.
Regarding your skylla (a) and charybdis (b), to me that sounds like a less coin-flippy way to die because scouting is key there. You can theoretically see how greedy/aggressive your opponent is playing, it's much more difficult to scout for that twilight/DS combo on another huge map.
Wasn't WoL sufficient proof that Protoss didn't have enough of a defender's advantage in all matchups?
Regardind WoL PvP, you can't actually see how aggressively or greedy someone is playing past a certain point, so no, the scouting is actually very, very limited there. Sure tech hits faster, but so does your defense against it, so i believe the two actually balance out (say, getting out a DT vs a blink timing).
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Buff Tanks! Buff tank splash!
The changes look interesting though but won't Change the onedimensional play Terran HAS to be played these days...
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I don't see why Oracles are a problem. If well-defended, Protoss is behind. Problem is scouting, not Oracles.
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On July 02 2014 02:09 SC2Toastie wrote:
Medivacs are one of the three units Terran has that actually are good and usable.
Mines are still really hit or miss because you can't effectively target them.
Why not, I don't know, meddle with making the other 8 units in the Terran arsenal more useful?
I see what you did there
Seriously though, these changes just seem like forum-spit-balling ideas. They dont seem well thought out at all.
I don't have any better suggestions, but I'm not getting paid for it either... dunno, just seems like these changes only buff current play, and dont enhance variation in gameplay (without forcing its hand)
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How about a buff for thors and bcs that will help out terran lategame (without promoting the ugly mass raven hsc slugfest).
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This is a terrible way to go about it, it's just strengthening the core bio strategy of terran which undoes progress towards startegy diversification (mech) and just further puts matchups into terran harasses early and gains a critical advantage or loses late.
A much more elegant solution would be to fix an economy problem of terran, with bio they have absolutely no good use for gas lategame. Frequently you see terran stockpile up several thousand gas in long macro games and be unable to use it, partially causing the lategame weakness of bio play and terran in general. Changing the ghost and raven slightly could fix this, for example change the ghost cost from 200m 100g to 125m 150g, it's an overall slight cost reduction and more importantly the unit becomes an effective gas dump crucial for lategame TvP especially. Getting a few ghosts in mech compositions is hardly affected by this but the mass ghosts you see in lategame TvP would effectively get cheaper.
Raven's similarly could use a small buff to make them complement bio play, buffing the autoturret for example (let them be affected by bio upgrades)
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Terrans need a reason for going into late game not the other way around. Medi drops are way over used the way it is now, imagine if they get buffed what will happen. I can't believe the head of the balancing team is aproaching this issue with such a silly logic
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Hmm, weird. I could have sworn there were no plans for extra changes in the future. Did someone write a 40 pages essay about Terran woes or what?
Medivac
Medivac harass has been getting weaker since the beginning of HotS due to players improving at defending against them. If we increase the strength of Medivacs, we’d not only help out Terran on both matchups, but also help provide even more action-packed games to watch. We wonder if buffing the unload speed or increasing the duration of the speed boost slightly would help in a positive way.
I understand your intention but no. The Medivac is already the best unit in the Terran arsenal, and for that sole reason you should not further buff it.
You also have to consider that ironically, the race that would suffer the most from this change would be… Terran. Doomdrops are already dominant in Marines/Tanks mirrors, and with that kind of change odds are such mirrors would be further dumbed down to a volatile game of "who first loads and hides 6 full Medivacs, boost into production, gg".
There are other ways to reach your goal of a more dynamic midgame (in TvP) without changing the Medivac. More below.
Widow Mine
Widow Mines are quite core in both TvP and TvZ. They’re also one of the most exciting units to watch and create lots of diverse moments depending on the players’ interaction with them within each engagement. We’re currently considering a slight increase to the splash radius of Widow Mines, which we believe could be a good direction to explore.
Good. Restoring some strength to the Mine is absolutely crucial for bio play in TvZ. As for the way you want to do it… Assuming you intend to create a fourth AoE zone between 1.75 and 2 radius, the damage in the second and third zone should also be increased from 20/10 to 30/15. The 30 part in the second zone is particularly critical to one-shot banes. See below the 3 states of the Mine (at release; post-nerf; after the proposed buff) vs Zerg, respectively in the areas 0 – 1.25 | 1.25 – 1.50 | 1.50 – 1.75 | 1.75 – 2.
40 | 40 | 40 | 0
40 | 20 | 10 | 0
40 | 30 | 15 | 10
Note that if you want to leave TvP untouched, you can play upon the Drilling Claws variable (searched in TvZ, but not in TvP), i.e. make it so Drilling Claws unlocks the buff, partially or totally. Bonus damage to shields can, in the same way, be tweaked accordingly so the total damage remains unchanged. It would be unwise to discourage Protoss players from playing Templars, a style superior to Colossus play in every way for the quality of games (amount of action, micro, multitasking). I don't believe Mines killed the Templar style, so time should be left for Templar play to make its return.
First, there are 2 ways to address a given problem; in absolute or relatively. Example: the Tempest is too strong in lategame PvT. There are 3 options to deal with this:
1. Weakening the stats (cost, supply, range, damage, armor, etc.) of the Tempest itself.
2. Making it so Protoss have a harder time reaching Tempests (i.e. give Terran extra ways to slow their development towards lategame), or improving units used against the Tempest.
3. Any combination of the above.
With this in mind, I advocate the following changes to balance bio play:
Stim
Research time decreased to 140 seconds, down from 170.
Target: general.
Reverting the stim nerf would yield numerous benefits, fixing a lot of the current Terran issues and opening a few options in the early game:
1. Terran would have stim earlier to defend numerous Protoss timings (and a few Zerg ones) in the early game. In particular, bear in mind there are 2 particularly good Blink maps in the ones you introduced for the next season.
2. In TvP, Terran would threaten an earlier stim timing, forcing Protoss macro builds to concede more units in the early game and thus slowing the speed at which they tech. In return, this means there would be more room for drop play in midgame because Protoss would not enter the phase with as many resources available and as much tech advance to install the perfect anti-drop system (Observers, early Blink, energy on MSC, etc.).
3. In TvZ, an earlier stim timing (and by repercussion an earlier CS timing) would boost a bit the "2-bases timing into third" openings, which are currently mostly dead because they lack power against 3 hatch builds.
To revert this nerf, you don't even need to swallow your pride since the change occurred almost 3 years ago in a completely different environment. Without reverting the stim nerf, a Photon Overcharge nerf would be needed to balance TvP, i.e. a change with a larger impact in PvZ and PvP. If you have only one change to do for the sake of TvP, it's 100% this one. I'm lazy, so I will just sum up in 5 words what I could say in 5 pages:
PLEASE REVERT THE STIM NERF.
Mutalisk
Health rate regeneration decreased to 1 HP every 2 seconds, down from 1 HP/second.
[For reference, other Zerg units regenerate at the rate of 1 HP every 3.7 seconds.]
Target: TvZ
Toning down muta regen is necessary, regardless of the Mine buff you use. Even with the old Mines it would have been needed. Terran's only answer to mass mutas is to limit the damage, drive them away and bandage their wounds. If mutas heal too fast, the infernal cycle never ceases (preventing the recovery phase) and Terran cannot fight back for the initiative. With a slower healing rate:
1. Terran would have a longer window of tranquillity after the passing of the storm and could start counter-attacking earlier to capitalize on wounded mutas.
2. Mutalisk harassment would come with an adjusted risk/reward ratio. Thor volleys and Mine hits would matter more.
3. More Mutalisks would also fall throughout the game, resulting in an inferior accumulation.
4. Sloppiness would be punished (the current regeneration rate is too forgiving).
5. The days of constant battles with Zerg being on the verge of losing at each wave are long gone anyway.
The Phoenix (range, either native or the bonus given by the Fleet beacon upgrade) and the Spore (bonus damage to bio) can be adjusted accordingly to deal with the impact on ZvP and ZvZ.
On top of a Mine buff in TvZ, those two are absolutely critical.
Some extra ideas, with less impact, to help in various domains:
Tactical Nuke
Cost changed from 100/100 to 50/150.
Damage to buildings increased to 750 | 500 | 250, up from 500 | 250 | 125. Target: lategame TvP, lategame TvZ. Nukes are extinct in TvZ and underused in lategame TvP because of their cost. Since bio play commonly floats gas if you take your 8 gas, what better way to spend the resource? Damage to buildings is increased so Terrans have a better way to cripple Zerg and Protoss' economy in lategame. Nitro Packs
Researched from: Tech Lab Barracks
Cost: 150m 150g 140s
Requirements: Factory.
Effects: increases the Reaper's movement speed to 4.25 and restores their WoL attack.[WoL attack: same as the current one except +5 bonus damage to Light; secondary attack against buildings: 30 (+3). Both range 5.] Target: lategame TvP, lategame TvZ. Fairly straighforward. As of now, the Reaper has absolutely no use past early game. With this upgrade, it could be used in lategame, particularly in TvP to defend Zealots/DTs harassement and pressure remote expands without committing Medivacs. Ghost
Cost changed from 200/100 to 175/100.
Snipe damage changed from 25 (+25 to Psionic) to 45 (-10 to Massive).Target: lategame TvP, lategame TvZ. Part of the lategame TvP woes is that Ghosts are extremely expensive; this would help a little without impacting too much the unknown that is currently Templar play in midgame. Snipe was overnerfed: an overtrained elite marksman cannot even one-shot a Zergling anymore, really? Creep Tumor
Sight range decreased to 9, down from 11.Target: TvZ. Creep passively provides too much vision, especially by lategame. Less vision on the outskirts means increased possibilities for drop to travel unseen, and overall less map control. Tempest
Bonus damage to Massive targets decreased to 20 (+0), down from 50 (+2).Target: lategame TvP. Battlecruisers die to Tempests in 7 shots from 15 range. Fully upgraded Tempests deal 95 damage to Massive air targets. 95, seriously? I am no ZvP expert but I am sure this is overkill against broods. Colossi are part of a mirror so it doesn't matter. Battlecruisers were already extremely rare, no reason to completely kill off the option with Tempests.
Now, for the question of mech in TvP. I don't have energy left to write an essay, but something drastic should be tested (with real games between pros) if you finally want to see mech play in TvP:
Siege Tank
+20 damage to Massive targets in Siege Mode.
Siege Tanks underperfom against Archons. Mech cannot be viable in TvP if Ghosts are necessary to vaguely compete. The mech path has to be autonomous.
This would increase the performance of Tanks in Siege Mode against: Archons (much needed), Colossi (could do with 1-2 less shots), Thors (irrelevant) and Ultralisks (somewhat needed in the open).
Immortal
Hardened shields has been reworked:
1. Attacks dealing from 10 to 20 damage are still reduced to 10 (unchanged).
2. Attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of being reduced to 10.
The reasoning is simple: Immortals dramatically overperform against Tanks.
Impact on units affected in non-mirror:
The impact on targeted units would be as follows:
With +0 attack Tanks
Archon: from 11 to 7.
Colossus: from 8 to 6.
Immortal: from 14 to 9.
(Ultralisk: from 11 to 8.)
With +3 attack Tanks
Archon: from 9 to 6.
Colossus: from 6 to 5.
Immortal: from 14 to 7.
(Ultralisk: from 9 to 7.)
Consequences
1. When nearing max, mech ground armies would be better than Protoss ground armies, which respects the logic of the disparity in mobility/reproducibility between the two sides. This would also force Protoss to actively harass/cripple Terran, i.e. the reverse situation with bio play.
2. The air transitions, problematic as of now, mostly rely on the superior Protoss midgame against mech, and by repercussion would be affected by those changes: teching Tempests would not be a formality if you actually had to fear a huge Tank push.
Once again, these changes should be tested on a specific map with some games between Terran and Protoss pros.
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On July 02 2014 03:12 Ben... wrote:
The medivac change ideas are incredibly stupid. The fact that they even suggest something like that makes me call into question their abilities, especially in light of some of the other balance changes (oracles especially). The medivac change does not address any of the issues with regards to Terran and mid-lategame stability, and just adds even more dumb coin flip situations to the game in all Terran match ups in the mid-game. All it would do is create some instability in the Terran match ups for a month or two (IE weird new doom drop timings and things like that) until figured out and then Terran would be back where they are right now.
The fact that these medivac changes were even suggested shows a lack of understanding of the game. Between this and the oracle buff, it is becoming increasingly clear they are simply taking shots in the dark and hoping something hits.
The widow mine should should just be reverted to how it was last year. It was nerfed too early, before people were comfortable with them.
nailed it
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Poland3748 Posts
They should release LotV 
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On July 02 2014 02:10 WhiteZetsu wrote:
There was 1 Terran in GSL Ro8, what more do you want?
2.
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I pretty much agree with TheDwf's post, it's pretty on point.
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Yes to both, I feel like both mines and drops are to weak atm.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/222199Immortal.jpg)
