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On July 02 2014 19:25 helius788 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 19:05 Teoita wrote:On July 02 2014 19:02 helius788 wrote:
I would suggest instead (to help Terran early game which is non existent atm):
Stim research time decrease to 140s (-30s)
Combat shields research time decrease to 60 (-50s) and costs the same as Concussive Shell (50/50)
And MSC Photon Overcharge costs 150 Energy
MSC cost should be 150/150 (a unit that is so good and powerful in every situtation, match-up etc. , must cost more since Protoss can neglect building an army by too much)
That would fix TvP and would not ruin TvZ (bio needs a buff in TvZ as well imo) or TvT (since mech is more viable atm anyways)
Terran could skip a factory and go for a pure bio push. This would give Terrans some options and would help defending Blink pushes of Toss that are far too powerful atm. For the millionth time, the MsC cannot be nerfed heavily because of PvT because it would affect PvZ and PvP very deeply as well. Other than that, i agree with those changes along with a true lategame buff. PvP is a mirror match, so an effect of the MSC will not effect the balance. And for PvZ 150Energy instead of 100 would not effect the matchup by too much to adapt. Imo Protoss is too strong in PvZ as well The MSC must be looked at no matter the matchups, since the value a player gets for 100/100 costs is simply ridiculous. A Zerg or Terran does not have an early spellcaster unit that is so useful and costefficient that not getting a MSC is stupiditiy.
He means balance as in balance of strategies, how to reward the more skilful player instead of both players being too scared to expand and just randomly picking one of a thousand 1 base strategies Protoss is capable of. Ask any Protoss about PvP in hots compared to Wings and I'm certain the majority of them will answer "it's still fucking frustrating because Protoss is an insane silly race but it's less so now because of MSC" or something along those lines.
This is something that's been generally agreed upon so there's bugger all point trying to argue against photon overcharges place in the game. It's here to stay.
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I would rather they buff Tanks( hit harder and faster siege time) and Thors ( increase speed on these ), rather than a Bio buff. Terrans have been screaming for Mech for years, perhaps now is the time to actually do it
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On July 02 2014 19:36 Topdoller wrote:
I would rather they buff Tanks( hit harder and faster siege time) and Thors ( increase speed on these ), rather than a Bio buff. Terrans have been screaming for Mech for years, perhaps now is the time to actually do it
Exactly, improving Mech has been echoed by players at ALL possible levels of play. Yet they're still bent on improving bio? Do they actually listen to the community feedback? They always preach 'diversity', yet their design ultimately limits Terran to one path; which is Bio in this patch. What is the balance team actually doing?
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Some pretty uninspiring suggested buffs. Someone suggested decreasing Stim research time, something that would be interesting to see. I also think tank/thor/battlecruiser buffs would be a lot more interesting.
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Northern Ireland26483 Posts
Is it just me that is fed up with continual speed increases to harassment-oriented units?
Oracle was a straight-up bad change, HoTS Mutas, potentially even faster speedivacs, before that faster Warp Prisms. It strikes me that the game is continually speeding up all the time and the reaction times required to deflect such drops get more demanding.
The nadir was reached with the hellbat drop v hellbat drop
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BUFFING RELOAD SPEED!!!
omg i've dreamt of this since the first time i played terran in wol beta lol
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On July 02 2014 19:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
Is it just me that is fed up with continual speed increases to harassment-oriented units?
Oracle was a straight-up bad change, HoTS Mutas, potentially even faster speedivacs, before that faster Warp Prisms. It strikes me that the game is continually speeding up all the time and the reaction times required to deflect such drops get more demanding.
The nadir was reached with the hellbat drop v hellbat drop
Yeah, it looks like Blizzard are looking for quick fixes rather than looking at core aspects of the game. Apart from balance Terrans have been complaining on the mechanical aspect of their play, so boosting Bio just makes it even more APM intensive
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On July 02 2014 19:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
Is it just me that is fed up with continual speed increases to harassment-oriented units?
Oracle was a straight-up bad change, HoTS Mutas, potentially even faster speedivacs, before that faster Warp Prisms. It strikes me that the game is continually speeding up all the time and the reaction times required to deflect such drops get more demanding.
The nadir was reached with the hellbat drop v hellbat drop
With you 100%. It was frustrating to watch the early weeks of HotS which was like a binary function: react within 6ms to [insert speedy harassment unit]? Yes: win game, No: lose game. To be fair, the metagame adapted with time but it also required the HB and widow mine to be hit with the nerf bat (and now look where Terran is when it was so dependent on these kind of units for free wins...) And now it seems DK wants to double down on this style of play.
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buff tanks nerf ravens, gg
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I think both suggestions are bad buffs. Buff tanks/thors. Maybe revert stim nerf.
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On July 02 2014 17:50 Shebuha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 17:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 02 2014 17:12 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:53 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:28 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:09 Shebuha wrote:I wish they would leave the game alone for awhile. Like literally just not change anything no matter what we say and just come out with new maps more frequently. For the last few seasons I've hated the fuck out of all of the new maps, but at least they're trying new things and are trying to give rise to a bit of diversity. I hate to use BW as an example, but it's just such a fucking good one... There were periods where one race would dominate the fuck out of one another... like you'd get entire tournaments where there'd be like 2 Protosses, or all of the top Terrans would have like 80-95% win rate vs Z, or Protoss literally couldn't beat Zerg. Sometimes these periods lasted for like a year and a half, just like SC2. As absolutely unlikely and untrue it seems eventually a player like Savior or Bisu or whoever WILL figure it out and bring balance to the force hehehhhhehehe. Sc2 doesn't really have any great examples... Stephano gave Zerg a good boost with the fast roach max and Protosses were definitely bringing PvZ closer at the end of WoL by combining really aggressive WP harass with solid macro and quicker expansions. I'll put this in a spoiler since I'm using a different game as an example. + Show Spoiler +Another good example is SSBM; I'd say it's a bit comparable to BW. The character tier list in that game is actually a pretty good representation of how capable each character is overall, and over the years as people have discovered and improved tech skill and general matchup knowledge characters have bounced up and down the list. People used to think Shiek and Marth were more or less the best, but people figured the game out and now they're a bit further down. Shiek vs. Marth used to be a really shitty matchup, but more and more we see Marth players bringing it closer to even. Then there's fucking Armada. He levelled Peach up SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH. Every tournament he shows new technology and combos. the problem is that Terran doesn't have the ability to innovate since like, it can't even really use like half its units at the top level Uh.. yeah.. maybe you're right... but part of my point was that it always feels like beyond helpless for the disadvantaged race and then someone comes along and does something no one ever thought of, or just did everything in a better way. To do something no one else has ever thought of you need the full arsenal of terran units to be useful Tanks, Thors, Battlecruisers, even reapers and Hellions suffer from just not being useful, or being so incredibly niche they see only very brief use. The reason MMMM is all terran ever does relates a lot more to the fact that almost everything else is useless than it does people not 'thinking up a new way to play' "maybe they should leave it alone so that people can figure it out. maybe someone will figure something out no one has thought of or people will learn to do things better i mean they did it in the prequel and in this other game where there were like no patches" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" "maybe youre right, my point is that maybe youre not right even though it feels like youre right because it feels hopeless and fully explored" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" YEAH I KNOW. Maybe!!!!!! Possibly!!!!!!!! There is a chance!!!!!!! That if blizz leaves us alone for a while that people or someone will figure something out or improve shit as they did in BW and before in SC2 and in other games where there were no balance patches. Unlikely, as all those Terran units have such massive and glaring issues, next to that, most Terran units have only been nerfed and new ones haven't been added in 4 years, so most experimentation has been tried nowadays. - I express how maybe terran will figure it out if we leave balance alone for a while - guy says terran sucks - i reiterate how MAYBE if we leave balance alone for awhile people might figure it out even though it feels hopeless where it is now - guy says terran sucks because units are useless or too niche - i point out how the guy just said the same thing twice and i was totally fucking aware of what he said the first time and re-reiterate my point - different guy (Hint: this one is you) says terran sucks because units have glaring issues and most everything has been tried out already YEAH I FUCKIN' KNOW THAT. I was completely 100% aware of that when I made the first post. All I'm saying is that maybe (I tried capitalizing it for you guys but I guess that didn't work?) terrans will figure something else out or just improve in the same way players did in other games. THis is the part where you say the exact same fucking thing you just said because apparently you don't like reading.
We shouldn't balance (or not-balance) around the possibiliy that maybe probably situationally perhaps in some way, shape or form, accidentaly Terran might figure something out AFTER 4 YEARS.
You missed that part in my post, so let me capitalize it for you. You're welcome.
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Buff snipe , sniping banes was awesome! And the suggested speed increases to Thor would help both against mutaball and to make mech better  I feel it's much more productive to open new options than tweaking the current ones. Terrains biggest problem is that they play the same way (at least similarly) every time so it's easy to practice against it.
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On July 02 2014 20:24 ShadowPie wrote:Buff snipe , sniping banes was awesome! And the suggested speed increases to Thor would help both against mutaball and to make mech better I feel it's much more productive to open new options than tweaking the current ones. Terrains biggest problem is that they play the same way (at least similarly) every time so it's easy to practice against it.
Terrains have it pretty rough. They could use some buffs.
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Italy12246 Posts
On July 02 2014 19:34 ROOTiaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 19:25 helius788 wrote:On July 02 2014 19:05 Teoita wrote:On July 02 2014 19:02 helius788 wrote:
I would suggest instead (to help Terran early game which is non existent atm):
Stim research time decrease to 140s (-30s)
Combat shields research time decrease to 60 (-50s) and costs the same as Concussive Shell (50/50)
And MSC Photon Overcharge costs 150 Energy
MSC cost should be 150/150 (a unit that is so good and powerful in every situtation, match-up etc. , must cost more since Protoss can neglect building an army by too much)
That would fix TvP and would not ruin TvZ (bio needs a buff in TvZ as well imo) or TvT (since mech is more viable atm anyways)
Terran could skip a factory and go for a pure bio push. This would give Terrans some options and would help defending Blink pushes of Toss that are far too powerful atm. For the millionth time, the MsC cannot be nerfed heavily because of PvT because it would affect PvZ and PvP very deeply as well. Other than that, i agree with those changes along with a true lategame buff. PvP is a mirror match, so an effect of the MSC will not effect the balance. And for PvZ 150Energy instead of 100 would not effect the matchup by too much to adapt. Imo Protoss is too strong in PvZ as well The MSC must be looked at no matter the matchups, since the value a player gets for 100/100 costs is simply ridiculous. A Zerg or Terran does not have an early spellcaster unit that is so useful and costefficient that not getting a MSC is stupiditiy. He means balance as in balance of strategies, how to reward the more skilful player instead of both players being too scared to expand and just randomly picking one of a thousand 1 base strategies Protoss is capable of. Ask any Protoss about PvP in hots compared to Wings and I'm certain the majority of them will answer "it's still fucking frustrating because Protoss is an insane silly race but it's less so now because of MSC" or something along those lines. This is something that's been generally agreed upon so there's bugger all point trying to argue against photon overcharges place in the game. It's here to stay.
Absolutely. For what it's worth, i think Overcharge itself is actually very good because it finally gives Protoss players some form of defender's advantage. It's just that it works out very poorly in early game PvT.
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I'm toss. Here's an idea: one of the main problems being the lack of Terran options in the early game, what about making photon overcharge ground only ?
This would (re)make banshee harass openers viable and indirectly buff medivac drops ( since the nexus couldn't target the medivacs themselves ).
This would also affect the other matchups. In PvZ this would be a slight nerf to the defensive advantage vs surprise mutas, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing, learn to scout. In PvP, this would also force players to be slightly more defensive due to fast proxy oracles but I think we could adapt to the new meta.
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From my personal spectator point of view (I can't be bothered playing sc2), tanks are entertaining to watch, medivacs aren't.
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I dont know why nobody actually sees that the biggest problem is wm fire delay. They are so easily sniped by mutas and also rarely fires during engagements. Decrease the delay by 20%.
1. decreased friendly fire as Z units will be hit sooner
2. slightly harder to snipe, fires more often.
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On July 02 2014 20:43 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 19:34 ROOTiaguz wrote:On July 02 2014 19:25 helius788 wrote:On July 02 2014 19:05 Teoita wrote:On July 02 2014 19:02 helius788 wrote:
I would suggest instead (to help Terran early game which is non existent atm):
Stim research time decrease to 140s (-30s)
Combat shields research time decrease to 60 (-50s) and costs the same as Concussive Shell (50/50)
And MSC Photon Overcharge costs 150 Energy
MSC cost should be 150/150 (a unit that is so good and powerful in every situtation, match-up etc. , must cost more since Protoss can neglect building an army by too much)
That would fix TvP and would not ruin TvZ (bio needs a buff in TvZ as well imo) or TvT (since mech is more viable atm anyways)
Terran could skip a factory and go for a pure bio push. This would give Terrans some options and would help defending Blink pushes of Toss that are far too powerful atm. For the millionth time, the MsC cannot be nerfed heavily because of PvT because it would affect PvZ and PvP very deeply as well. Other than that, i agree with those changes along with a true lategame buff. PvP is a mirror match, so an effect of the MSC will not effect the balance. And for PvZ 150Energy instead of 100 would not effect the matchup by too much to adapt. Imo Protoss is too strong in PvZ as well The MSC must be looked at no matter the matchups, since the value a player gets for 100/100 costs is simply ridiculous. A Zerg or Terran does not have an early spellcaster unit that is so useful and costefficient that not getting a MSC is stupiditiy. He means balance as in balance of strategies, how to reward the more skilful player instead of both players being too scared to expand and just randomly picking one of a thousand 1 base strategies Protoss is capable of. Ask any Protoss about PvP in hots compared to Wings and I'm certain the majority of them will answer "it's still fucking frustrating because Protoss is an insane silly race but it's less so now because of MSC" or something along those lines. This is something that's been generally agreed upon so there's bugger all point trying to argue against photon overcharges place in the game. It's here to stay. Absolutely. For what it's worth, i think Overcharge itself is actually very good because it finally gives Protoss players some form of defender's advantage. It's just that it works out very poorly in early game PvT.
I didn't buy this argument six months ago when we last discussed it, and I think there's less evidence for it now. Protoss already has ways to create a defender's advantage (cannons, FF, getting to choose a warp-in composition when the opponent's army is already on its way, high range units firing across building walls, etc). Yet, if we look at PvP, that doesn't hold. The more one sees PvP games (especially in proleague), the more it feels more coinflippy than at the end of WoL, with higher chances to end in the early midgame to a timing. Some of the volatility arises because PO allows for certain 1-base and 2-base builds to forsake units for long periods, allowing for more extreme builds (think DTs).
So, wherever the volatility arises from in HotS, it's not really reduced by the PO, in fact, it might be contributing to it. Instead, we should take a closer look at other changes to the P race such as oracles with their current speed, and cost. Their very existence limits the number of safe builds in both TvP and PvP.
Besides all of that, we shouldn't use the simplistic argument that PO is needed to balance a mirror, instead we should open up all options to see if we can actually balance the game for other races.
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On July 02 2014 20:59 Nyast wrote:
I'm toss. Here's an idea: one of the main problems being the lack of Terran options in the early game, what about making photon overcharge ground only ?
This would (re)make banshee harass openers viable and indirectly buff medivac drops ( since the nexus couldn't target the medivacs themselves ).
This would also affect the other matchups. In PvZ this would be a slight nerf to the defensive advantage vs surprise mutas, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing, learn to scout. In PvP, this would also force players to be slightly more defensive due to fast proxy oracles but I think we could adapt to the new meta.
The more i think about it, the idea is actually quite smart for that MU
But this is impossible as PO is used to defend quick oracles in pvp, light muta harass, pheonix... etc etc.
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Italy12246 Posts
@Ghanburighan : I agree that oracles are bullshit, but the fact of the matter is that what you list for defender's advantage is incredibly minor compared to what Z and T have. I don't even now how forcefields are on that list, other than ff'ing your main's ramp.
The coinflip aspect of PvP in HotS is misunderstood. The tech paths counter each other as hard as ever, that much hasn't changed. What has changed is that now you can (almost) always get your tech up, while in WoL it was very easy to die because either
a) you played too greedy and died to a pure warpgate timing that you didn't account for, or
b) you didn't play greedy enough, so even if you went the same tech path, or one that supposedly countered your opponent's, you still ended up behind or outright dead.
That coinflip aspect has more or less been removed, but it's also way less appearent than "oh he went blink without robo vs dt's" so people don't notice it as much.
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EPT
