How do these changes help terran in the lategame? Terran is strong enough early on and can win games in several ways after couple of minutes if opponents are not prepared. Does blizzard want to see more 8-12 minute GG games? This will especially hit the dia/master segment with making games more frustrating and less joyful to play. I see more ppl turning their back towards SC2 for the reason of this bad decision making.

Rather e.g. increase tank dmg vs light units instead or buff mech a bit in any other way. If ZvT gets moved back to stale bio+mine rally + 20 minute defense map survival fight for zerg, this is no good. Exactly this would mine + medivac buff encourage.

In general the approach should be to remove muta regeneration (as undying mutalisks are the problem in ZvT lategame) and nerf the stuff that is the reason for zerg having it. Muta regen is also bad for ZvZ (therefore we got the spore buff) and balance wise I dont like it too much in ZvP either.

Thezzy

Netherlands2117 Posts

July 02 2014 13:07 GMT

#684

One thing I've noticed with Blizzard is their fear to use the test map to its fullest.
Why have a test map where people can totally mess around and only do tiny changes on tiny step at a time?
Throw in a huge change and see how it goes!
Is it OP? Ok! We'll tone it down until it's just right! There fixed!
Is it UP? Ok! We'll buff it till it's just right! FIXED!

Heck, they could make the Tank 150/100/2, buff the damage and whatnot and just test it out and learn from that.
These small changes every time never get to the core of any issues.
Things that have to go live fast can be nice and small but come on Blizzard, be bold and put some major changes on a testmap and just let players have a go at it.
You won't know what some units might be capable of until you OP them and then scale it back.
Isn't that why the whole testmap exists?

Teoita

Italy12247 Posts

July 02 2014 13:09 GMT

#685

The test map is mostly PR imo because no high level games are played on it, and not having matchmaking means opponents are almost never matched in skill anyway.

papaz

Sweden4149 Posts

July 02 2014 13:12 GMT

#686

Ughh... not liking either change. But seeing this from Blizzards point of view they are probably just wanting to hold out for LoTV where they will do better changes (read mech) than this. Specially since other areas of the game needs more balance testing.

Because the reason "players adapted so it's time to buff" feels like a joke.

Thezzy

Netherlands2117 Posts

July 02 2014 13:12 GMT

#687

Why not add a checkbox to the Multiplayer section?
[] I want to play with the Test changes

Would allow you to ladder against other players that also have the Test changes checked.

TheDwf

France19747 Posts

July 02 2014 13:15 GMT

#688

On July 02 2014 22:09 Teoita wrote:
The test map is mostly PR imo because no high level games are played on it, and not having matchmaking means opponents are almost never matched in skill anyway.

Yep. Testing stuff through small tournaments with various pros was a nice idea, hopefully the initiative is renewed.

edit: also,

Kind of amusing how influent we are eh?

I don't know what you're talking about. As far as I'm concerned Blizzard had a spontanenous change of mind unrelated to any recent TL content.

Ctone23

United States1841 Posts

July 02 2014 13:16 GMT

#689

That's true, but how difficult would it be to open up a test map (or two) with some of the changes Dwf suggested? I'm incompetent when it comes to programming but I would think it wouldn't be THAT difficult.

Maybe they don't want to get hopes up, and like you say, it isn't like pro's could ladder and give it a proper test. Although, those seem like menial obstacles that could be worked around.

KatatoniK

United Kingdom978 Posts

July 02 2014 13:17 GMT

#690

I don't get Blizzard's propositions here. This doesn't fix a damn thing in regards to the race at all, the main issue is the lack of late game options, buffing their midgame isn't going to magically fix that.

Medivacs are fine as they are. Eh I'd say mines are fine as they are right now, the whole splash radius thing with the current mine in PvT. Yeah I don't feel like losing most of my gateway units due to 1 thing.

Seriously, don't fix what isn't broken Blizzard, look at late-game PvT. Realise it's T's lategame options that make the game like that.

nimdil

Poland3769 Posts

July 02 2014 13:18 GMT

#691

I like what I'm reading here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22493264

bluQ

Germany1724 Posts

July 02 2014 13:19 GMT

#692

On July 02 2014 22:18 nimdil wrote:
I like what I'm reading here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22493264

Can't agree more!

DeZiekeNon

Netherlands12 Posts

July 02 2014 13:20 GMT

#693

TheDwf spot on.

braller

96 Posts

July 02 2014 13:26 GMT

#694

I don't really get all the people who saying that fixing stuff with the midgame won't affect the "real problem"- it's not even close to that simple. To use perhaps the most infamous example, the queen buff was reduced Terran aggression, which let Zergs play greedily enough that they could reach an extremely difficult to beat lategame. Similarly, the Oracle buff has forced Terrans to play more defensively, which gives Protoss an economy edge.

That and the proposed buffs muta+stim+mine in the most epic whatever are completely insane (that is, insane to put them all together, they are good changes to look at individually).

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

July 02 2014 13:30 GMT

#695

meanwhile in the Code A qualifier...

Just kidding, but I really don't think we need to make massive adjustments right now. The one or other Terran-specific tweak and the race should be quite well off.

sibs

635 Posts

July 02 2014 13:30 GMT

#696

I'd love to see some of the terran suggestions here go through it'd be absolutely hilarious the consequences, all of them would be even more hilarious, TvT galore is what you guys want it seems.

Nebuchad

Switzerland12484 Posts

July 02 2014 13:31 GMT

#697

On July 02 2014 22:26 braller wrote:
I don't really get all the people who saying that fixing stuff with the midgame won't affect the "real problem"- it's not even close to that simple. To use perhaps the most infamous example, the queen buff was reduced Terran aggression, which let Zergs play greedily enough that they could reach an extremely difficult to beat lategame. Similarly, the Oracle buff has forced Terrans to play more defensively, which gives Protoss an economy edge.

That and the proposed buffs muta+stim+mine in the most epic whatever are completely insane (that is, insane to put them all together, they are good changes to look at individually).

The reason why these buffs aren't good isn't that they don't address the "real problem", it's just that they buff the stuff that we already see in most games in a race that has a plethora of units that we never see.

Teoita

Italy12247 Posts

July 02 2014 13:31 GMT

#698

On July 02 2014 22:30 Big J wrote:
meanwhile in the Code A qualifier...

Just kidding, but I really don't think we need to make massive adjustments right now. The one or other Terran-specific tweak and the race should be quite well off.

Then again, isn't Code B basically only Terrans now? :D

Lizarb

Denmark307 Posts

July 02 2014 13:33 GMT

#699

Give the boost that medivacs have also to Battlecruisers and Vikings.

Battlecruisers so they have a little more maneuverability.
Vikings so they actually have a chance to flank Tempests or catch a warp prism.