EPT
Terran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 36
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ballehatten
Denmark56 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 02 2014 22:30 Big J wrote: meanwhile in the Code A qualifier... Just kidding, but I really don't think we need to make massive adjustments right now. The one or other Terran-specific tweak and the race should be quite well off. A good amount of Terran players qualifying was expected since half of the qualified ones would/should have already been in Code A in the first place (most likely Flash, TY, FanTaSy, Reality, Cure). The real test will be Code A, and here I don't expect more than 4-5 Terrans advancing if Code A is played in the current state of the game. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On July 02 2014 22:26 braller wrote: I don't really get all the people who saying that fixing stuff with the midgame won't affect the "real problem"- it's not even close to that simple. To use perhaps the most infamous example, the queen buff was reduced Terran aggression, which let Zergs play greedily enough that they could reach an extremely difficult to beat lategame. Similarly, the Oracle buff has forced Terrans to play more defensively, which gives Protoss an economy edge. That and the proposed buffs muta+stim+mine in the most epic whatever are completely insane (that is, insane to put them all together, they are good changes to look at individually). Noone argues that. TvZ before mine nerf was just a one way 20 minute survival fight, completely out of balance as zergs could only survive or get killed during this period. Zergs were only winning if they were able to hold for 20+ minutes and stack up enough mutalisk to finally break the permanent attacks + drops. While I like the dwf's suggestions/appraoch overall, I think buffing terran bio (stim) + mine + "toning down" muta regen would simply result in 100% mmmm rally in every game and the removal of the option for zergs to finally overcome it with mutalisks, therefore a slow fading death for zergs in every ZvT would be guarantied - as the transition to hive will be impossible during this permanent pressure and it will end in 2-2 zerg vs 3-3 terran with buffed mines and nerfed mutalisk (of course it depends on how much regen gets toned down and mines get buffed). So this part is designed strongly out of his view as a terran player. | ||
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
Unscouted doom drop that unloads in 2 seconds and immediately demolishes half your base? Medievacs on crack boosting for 30 seconds, easily flying past your defenses at your third as you helplessly watch them continue right into your main? A bit hyperbolical sure, and ultimately does help with "balance" (winrates will be less skewed on average), but will make the game even more horrendously coinflippy. | ||
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GoSuNamhciR
124 Posts
Changes that could easily fix both: Reactor Build time changed to same time as tech lab - This would allow for more marines early game and you would get your hellions out about 10 seconds faster as well. The marines early help defend against many of the early protoss aggressions, oh no you had 2 too few marines and an oracle is in your base? You lose everything! This prevents this. Having the extra 2 marines could also be the tipping point in a lot of other aggression (TvT proxy reapers, PvT Stalker/Zealot/Moship harass, blink stalker all in is not nearly as big of an issue anymore) Late game changes: Missile Turret - Cheap Engineering bay upgrade that could require an armory to give Missile turrets a small AOE, these could be magic boxed, but would make zerg have to micro against them, and widow mine effectiveness would go up since magic boxing does not allow for sniping of mines. Siege Tank - Damage against unarmored needs to go up by about 40-50% to make them viable at holding positions. Zerg would suffer a lot to this buff but mutas are a lot stronger these days and mech really isn't viable against zerg except for splittable maps. If we change map design a bit this could make fun and interesting to watch as it was in the days of BW. Tanks just suck. Widow mine - don't buff this luck unit, if anything this needs removed from the game in lotv. Blizzard really missed the mark on some of the new units... | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
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renkin
France249 Posts
I hope he poted the answer on the Blizz's forums then, now that he got some credibility. If Blizz didn't read, I'll just propose the following : put blink on siege tanks to make mech mobility on par with protoss deathball ! | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6518 Posts
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Terence Chill
Germany112 Posts
On July 02 2014 22:43 renkin wrote: next editorial is for Zerg, right ? i predict this is going to happen. if, and i suppose they will, blizzard misses the shot on the next patch again. the only reason why zerg numbers aren´t that bad is because they somehow manage to sneak out some wins against protoss. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 02 2014 22:35 TheDwf wrote: A good amount of Terran players qualifying was expected since half of the qualified ones would/should have already been in Code A in the first place (most likely Flash, TY, FanTaSy, Reality, Cure). The real test will be Code A, and here I don't expect more than 4-5 Terrans advancing if Code A is played in the current state of the game. They were only expected to qualify in that amount under the assumption the MUs are somewhat fine  | ||
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mykillandjello
United States29 Posts
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
On July 02 2014 22:39 LSN wrote: Noone argues that. TvZ before mine nerf was just a one way 20 minute survival fight, completely out of balance as zergs could only survive or get killed during this period. Zergs were only winning if they were able to hold for 20+ minutes and stack up enough mutalisk to finally break the permanent attacks + drops. While I like the dwf's suggestions/appraoch overall, I think buffing terran bio (stim) + mine + "toning down" muta regen would simply result in 100% mmmm rally in every game and the removal of the option for zergs to finally overcome it with mutalisks, therefore a slow fading death for zergs in every ZvT would be guarantied - as the transition to hive will be impossible during this permanent pressure and it will end in 2-2 zerg vs 3-3 terran with buffed mines and nerfed mutalisk (of course it depends on how much regen gets toned down and mines get buffed). So this part is designed strongly out of his view as a terran player. Actually no, top zergs such as DRG were already winning against top terrans like Bogus BEFORE the mine nerf and mutalisk buff. If you actually watch some ZvTs right before the patches came you would realize that top zergs, through a combination of better baneling splitting, sending banelings in waves to minimize mine AOE, better mutalisk control, and better engagements (all of which take time to master), were already doing fine against the MMMM parade. All the zergs need is just ONE favorable engagement, to queue up ~10+ drones so the fourth gases can be saturated, hive started, and a few spines thrown down at bases where Terrans are likely to continue to pressure (3-4 spines do WONDERs against MMMM parade pushes). Moreover, recent games have shown that with the pitiful mines and general complete lack of effective AOE from Terran, Zergs could actually just mass insane baneling numbers and still trade evenly on 2-2 with Terrans on 3-3. Not saying that the mine buff together with the mutalisk nerf would still allow zergs to trade evenly when a whole set of upgrades behind, but in the current state something has to be done. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
There are so many other things that can be improved on the Terran end, like Nukes and BCs which people never use, and ghosts which were nerfed to the ground. The widow mine buff is going in the right direction. | ||
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
On July 02 2014 22:49 mykillandjello wrote: Maybe a researchable upgrade to medivac capacity and/or unload speed, similar to the one in the WoL campaign, would do the trick. It could end up being a bit of a SNAFU like transformation servos but who knows. And instead of a buff to the radius, why not have the time it takes for them to activate when an enemy unit steps into their range be decreased? That might help against blink play as well as ling run-by's and muta harass. For the last time no, medievac buffs are NOT the answer to the recently Terran woes. You can make the buff to medivacs upgrade based, late-game based, etc. as much as you want, but it still does not change the fundamental problem that Terran units are still shit during the late-game, and any medievac buffs will have negligible impact on the late-game and only serve to make any M/U involving a Terran even more coinflippy (and thus "improving" Terran winrates through mid-game exploits, but is that something we want?) | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
On July 02 2014 22:50 EngrishTeacher wrote: Actually no, top zergs such as DRG were already winning against top terrans like Bogus BEFORE the mine nerf and mutalisk buff. If you actually watch some ZvTs right before the patches came you would realize that top zergs, through a combination of better baneling splitting, sending banelings in waves to minimize mine AOE, better mutalisk control, and better engagements (all of which take time to master), were already doing fine against the MMMM parade. All the zergs need is just ONE favorable engagement, to queue up ~10+ drones so the fourth gases can be saturated, hive started, and a few spines thrown down at bases where Terrans are likely to continue to pressure (3-4 spines do WONDERs against MMMM parade pushes). Moreover, recent games have shown that with the pitiful mines and general complete lack of effective AOE from Terran, Zergs could actually just mass insane baneling numbers and still trade evenly on 2-2 with Terrans on 3-3. Not saying that the mine buff together with the mutalisk nerf would still allow zergs to trade evenly when a whole set of upgrades behind, but in the current state something has to be done. Ah right, Innovation lost that 1 bo3, clearly the matchup was fine back then. It's not like zergs all inned 50% of the matches. | ||
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OPL3SA2
United States378 Posts
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On July 02 2014 22:50 EngrishTeacher wrote: Actually no, top zergs such as DRG were already winning against top terrans like Bogus BEFORE the mine nerf and mutalisk buff. If you actually watch some ZvTs right before the patches came you would realize that top zergs, through a combination of better baneling splitting, sending banelings in waves to minimize mine AOE, better mutalisk control, and better engagements (all of which take time to master), were already doing fine against the MMMM parade. All the zergs need is just ONE favorable engagement, to queue up ~10+ drones so the fourth gases can be saturated, hive started, and a few spines thrown down at bases where Terrans are likely to continue to pressure (3-4 spines do WONDERs against MMMM parade pushes). Moreover, recent games have shown that with the pitiful mines and general complete lack of effective AOE from Terran, Zergs could actually just mass insane baneling numbers and still trade evenly on 2-2 with Terrans on 3-3. Not saying that the mine buff together with the mutalisk nerf would still allow zergs to trade evenly when a whole set of upgrades behind, but in the current state something has to be done. I would rather look if zerg really needs 4 larva per inject or if 3 is enough and all these mechanics that were once set and never changed. But probably this is something for the next expansion only. "All the zergs need is just ONE favorable engagement," All terrans needed was one favorable engagement and Z was dead instantly (losing a hatch or some drones vs marine dps happens within a few seconds). On the other hand I remember your example was a result of terran pushing over-greedily and without adapting to the possibility that the zerg can break the push. Then terran units were walking one by one over the map and got picked up by what was left of the zerg. I don't like to talk too much about these details, as it depends too much on the course of the game itself to be generalized. I like the idea of "toning down" muta regeneration. But surely not in combination with buffing stim timings and mines. Muta regeneration was implemented to be able to deal with non-stop attack waves of terran. How will this mu get fixed with buffing the attack wafes and nerfing the defence capabilities of zerg? Rather than that the advantage of zerg should be reduced once he survived/overcame the 20 minute attack wafes instead of limiting his options to defend it. Because then we gonna see 10 minute games where terran attacks out of macro play and zergs simply cant hold and have to write gg again en masse. Especially with the new hellbat mechanics this becomes more than questionable. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 02 2014 23:02 OPL3SA2 wrote: I'm a terran, and I found myself voting no to both of these options. Widow mines are not complementary to terran's strengths, and as such, I have much more success just pumping out Hellbats out of a reactored factory. They're easier to control, do a TON more damage to lings, soak up baneling hits, don't kill your own units, and don't OFTEN DIE WITHOUT HAVING DONE ANY DAMAGE, which widow mines have the potential to do. If you want to buff widow mines, they should come out of the gate with increased burrow speed if anything. Don't decrease their radius, then increase their radius, then sit back and think you're doing a good job balancing the game. That's called being out of your element, Donny GG, you win the thread. Buffing something that has been previously nerfed should be out of the question due to random forum guy defining the most-used scientific methode (trial and error) as "being out of your element". | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On July 02 2014 22:42 Flonomenalz wrote: Even as a Zerg player, I grow weary of this way of balancing Terran. When I think of Terran, I think of Marines and Tanks, before anything else. Why can't Blizzard seem to make the tank work in SC2? I just don't get it. Because they refuse to admit that their nerfing of tank damage in 2010-2011 (reducing it from 60 to 50, and then from 50 to 35 +15 to armored) was a mistake. I don't know how people at Blizzard think, but when I think about what a tank is, I imagine a fearful vehicle with so much firepower that doing a frontal assault is suicide. In SC2, you can bumrush them even with squishy zerglings. | ||
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
Widow Mine - Reverting TvZ back to a more Mine-centric style would be disastrous. Do you remember the rally-point Terran days of earlier HotS? That domination of Terrans then was more crushing than what's happening now. I'd much rather push for a solution that would make more underused units such as the Siege Tank more effective. To that end, perhaps the solution lies in something like a Concussive Shells-type upgrade for the Tank and/or Mine - perhaps getting hit slows all units in the blast radius to half speed. There, you have a situation where Zergs are more punished for running banelings into a tank or mine line, or flying Mutalisks over mines, as they'd be able to be cleaned up a lot more easily, but you don't have the nonsense of mines utterly shredding armies (and for that matter, probe lines and packs of Zealots) for the slightest of micro mistakes. That would create synergy with Thors as well, and encourage their use, as Thors would then be able to get a few shots in on a slowed Muta pack that they otherwise wouldn't because they're so slow. If you're worried about Archons getting in tanks faces, then this helps a lot. Again, creating utility and synergy here rather than buffing what's already best. Reaper - I'm troubled by this, as I think it would be too good late game. Terran already has the best static defense in the game against Zealot/DT harrass. If you build Turrets and a PF, you're set, so I really don't think that this is an issue. Even if a Protoss warps in 8 DTs to try and pop it, that's a 1000/1000 investment that's not in their main army, and if there's a proper reaction time for SCV repair, you can hold it. I can also see a pack of 12 reapers or so decimating Z and P bases way too quickly - if that's going to be a thing to contend with late game, then either Static D (from P or Z) or Warp-Ins need to be a viable defense to it, and this change would render both of them moot. One way I could see this possibly working is if their building-attack cost energy so that they couldn't just wreck a line of bases - 15 or so - but right now the reaper design as a scouting unit is holding it back a lot. There are lots of units you don't see late game in all of the races, so unfortunately the Reaper's problem is not unique. Tempest - Despite what you may think, no, this is not overkill versus Brood Lords because of the Viper abduct problem late game. The infamous MaNa v FireCake game illustrated this. The Tempest/Oracle envision/Massive dmg synergy is essential to being able to compete against a Zerg that is advancing with a Spine/Spore wall and high-tech army late game - you need to be able to clear out the Broodlords so you can advance with other units to push back the wall, otherwise there's no way to halt the advance. I also think you really don't understand the necessity of this in PvP, and despite what you say, balancing mirrors does matter. Remember the Hellbat drop TvT days? Would it have been prudent to say "both sides have Hellbats so it doesn't matter?" Of course not. PvP used to be nothing but Colossus wars and taking away the Tempest's ability to snipe colossi would break the mirror. I feel for you about not seeing BCs - they're actually my favorite unit in the game - but you also don't see Carriers often, so again, Terran is not unique here. I'd look for ways to buff or upgrade the BC to have it work better with other units - perhaps a Guardian Shield-type ability so that one or two in your army, in addition to sniping a few valuable units with Yamato Cannon, could definitely turn the tide of a battle. Immortal and Archon - As you point out, changing the Immortal's shield in the way you described would overpower Ultralisks in late game ZvP. They'd do double damage, and Protoss has no other options at that level to deal with them. Voids don't work because of Queens and Hydras, Tempests don't get a bonus and get shot down easily by Queens and Hydras as well, and Carriers kill them hilariously slow due to their armor. But, even given that, I think there's more to it that you haven't considered. You talk about a disparity in reproducibility - late game, a Terran will be the one that has more effective reproducibility than Protoss, at least in units that matter. Massing a gateway-heavy army against a Mech army is a poor and inefficient choice, and so you can't really factor in warping in a bunch of units as heavily as you'd think. Archons can tank Siege hits well, but if you sprinkle in a few Thors and target those Archons, they'll die quick. Warping in a bunch of zealots and stalkers to replenish supply is decent, but they're not going to do much against the tanks and hellbats that you're producing out of 7-8 factories. I have to rebuild those immortals, and unless I have seven or eight robos, there's no way I can replenish on equal footing. If you're going to make Terran Mech ground armies that undeniably and unbeatably badass, then there has to be an option - is it Air? If so, you need to make Tech switching for Protoss a lot easier, because right now it's like asking you to switch to Bio immediately from Mech. There's no way I'm going to be able to make then produce off of 7-8 Stargates after going Immo-heavy, and even then the units would be unupgraded. Again, I'd ask you to consider something like the Concussive Shells-type upgrade and retooling the BC and Thor to be more useful and work better with your armies. The Tempest, Immortal and Archon are there and necessary for very strong reasons, and a lot of Protoss still remember what it was like when MC was the only person winning anything (much like Taeja is for you now) because Toss lacked the necessary tools. | ||
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