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On July 12 2014 23:48 IKizzy wrote:
I just played a protoss who proxy gated me, I went for a reaper expand and held it off, behind his FAILED proxy gate, he expands, goes darkshrine AND double forge then takes a third with literally a MSC, zealot, stalker and dt. He has 3-3 before I even had 2-2 (I was being very diligent about my upgrades mind) I cant leave my base cause he also somehow found money and time for a Robo and warp prism with dt harass, i take my third and he just attacks with Zealots Archons and dts, didn't even bring his MSC, I just die, (I had ghosts during this attack as well, they were practically worthless) I'm not one to complain about balance, but that was literally the stupidest game I have ever played.
Replay or it didn't happen.
Seriously, if the game actually played out exactly the way you described it, NO ONE would be playing Terran at all. Sure Terran is a bit UP especially in TvP at the moment, but please for fucks sake stop with these hyperboles.
How much did he delay you with the proxy gate? How many gates were proxied and was he making probes throughout the attack? How prepared were you for the DTs? Were there any timing windows that you could have just walked your bio across the map and kill him? (I mean he is TRIPLE nexus'ing after a failed proxy with DOUBLE forge and tech... LOL?)
Lastly, your league is relevant. Shit happens in lower leagues, and I won't argue with you that protoss is easier to play/a-move at lower levels.
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On July 12 2014 23:48 IKizzy wrote:
I just played a protoss who proxy gated me, I went for a reaper expand and held it off, behind his FAILED proxy gate, he expands, goes darkshrine AND double forge then takes a third with literally a MSC, zealot, stalker and dt. He has 3-3 before I even had 2-2 (I was being very diligent about my upgrades mind) I cant leave my base cause he also somehow found money and time for a Robo and warp prism with dt harass, i take my third and he just attacks with Zealots Archons and dts, didn't even bring his MSC, I just die, (I had ghosts during this attack as well, they were practically worthless) I'm not one to complain about balance, but that was literally the stupidest game I have ever played.
Lol, kill his 3rd before it goes up then.
Imo the reason everybody is angry is the reaction time. For Blizzard only the sold units count, so they had no problem ignoring the mess sc2 was 1/2 year before HotS. This time we will see a few changes and then the next 1/2 year waiting period. We may see a few changes again, but it will be made clear that before the next expo nothing big will happen.
Thank god for TL, which has a nice reach into the sc2 player scene. If sc2 is shown as boring and badly balanced, Blizz has to react.
The reason they have such a late reacion-time isn't becasue David Kim cannot see a problem when he watches the games. But rather, that he backs it up with these laddder-statistics which always show around 50/50 win/rates. Thus, he thinks the game is actually statistically balanced, and thus delays changes untill everyone goes crazy.
The issue here is that the ladder win/rates automatically goes toward 50/50 regardless of the level of balance, and that's bascially why his way of assessing statistics is nonsense. If he had looked away from win/rates, we would have had a much better balance today I believe.
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Why not Buff tanks in non-siege mode against armor?
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On July 13 2014 00:00 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 23:48 IKizzy wrote:
I just played a protoss who proxy gated me, I went for a reaper expand and held it off, behind his FAILED proxy gate, he expands, goes darkshrine AND double forge then takes a third with literally a MSC, zealot, stalker and dt. He has 3-3 before I even had 2-2 (I was being very diligent about my upgrades mind) I cant leave my base cause he also somehow found money and time for a Robo and warp prism with dt harass, i take my third and he just attacks with Zealots Archons and dts, didn't even bring his MSC, I just die, (I had ghosts during this attack as well, they were practically worthless) I'm not one to complain about balance, but that was literally the stupidest game I have ever played. Lol, kill his 3rd before it goes up then. Show nested quote +
Imo the reason everybody is angry is the reaction time. For Blizzard only the sold units count, so they had no problem ignoring the mess sc2 was 1/2 year before HotS. This time we will see a few changes and then the next 1/2 year waiting period. We may see a few changes again, but it will be made clear that before the next expo nothing big will happen.
Thank god for TL, which has a nice reach into the sc2 player scene. If sc2 is shown as boring and badly balanced, Blizz has to react.
The reason they have such a late reacion-time isn't becasue David Kim cannot see a problem when he watches the games. But rather, that he backs it up with these laddder-statistics which always show around 50/50 win/rates. Thus, he thinks the game is actually statistically balanced, and thus delays changes untill everyone goes crazy. The issue here is that the ladder win/rates automatically goes toward 50/50 regardless of the level of balance, and that's bascially why his way of assessing statistics is nonsense. If he had looked away from win/rates, we would have had a much better balance today I believe.
Exactly. The MMR system is designed to put players against those who are 'equally skilled', so the win rates are inherently skewed towards 50% either way over a course of games. This effectively masks the obvious racial imbalances and problems that can only be found using other methods such as win-rates over the duration of a game in a specific matchup (TvP late game) or even Racial Distribution in GM per region. Relying on this crude '50% win rate' is clearly the wrong way to balance the game. DK should really look beyond this figure and consider other options.
Recently someone posted a No. of mutalisks made by Zerg and the chances of Z winning for that particular number. It really zeros in the potential issue of mass mutalisk and how Terran may be ill equipped to properly deal with that threat. Seriously, they should just stop looking at that ONE figure and take into account a myriad of sources.
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On July 13 2014 00:00 Hider wrote:
The issue here is that the ladder win/rates automatically goes toward 50/50 regardless of the level of balance, and that's bascially why his way of assessing statistics is nonsense. If he had looked away from win/rates, we would have had a much better balance today I believe.
People post this a lot, but it doesn't make sense. Yes, your overall win rate against all opponents will automatically go towards 50/50, but the specific racial matchups sure don't. If, say, Protoss is overpowered against Terran, then you should see Terran players with stuff like 45/55 TvP and 55/45 TvZ. Their overall win rate is 50/50, so they don't advance. However, they're better than their opponents, which is reflected in the TvZ matchup, but their TvP matchup remains below even despite them being better players due to the imbalance.
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On July 13 2014 00:24 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2014 00:00 Hider wrote:
The issue here is that the ladder win/rates automatically goes toward 50/50 regardless of the level of balance, and that's bascially why his way of assessing statistics is nonsense. If he had looked away from win/rates, we would have had a much better balance today I believe. People post this a lot, but it doesn't make sense. Yes, your overall win rate against all opponents will automatically go towards 50/50, but the specific racial matchups sure don't. If, say, Protoss is overpowered against Terran, then you should see Terran players with stuff like 45/55 TvP and 55/45 TvZ. Their overall win rate is 50/50, so they don't advance. However, they're better than their opponents, which is reflected in the TvZ matchup, but their TvP matchup remains below even despite them being better players due to the imbalance.
People say both Z and P are OP against T. Same thing that happened during Broodlord/infestor area where zerg win/rates probably weren't far off from 50/50 against P and T.
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United States840 Posts
On July 06 2014 11:16 Empirimancer wrote:
Mines were definitely nerfed too hard and need a buff, but I agree we don't want to see Terrans going 4M 100% of the time in TvZ. Allowing the medivac to pick up sieged tanks would help a bit, I guess. However it would take MAJOR buffs to make the tank viable in TvP, except maybe for weird all ins. As has been said many times, there are just too many Protoss counters to tanks.
Personally, I want to see the tech-trees for terran (and to a lesser extent, protoss) lengthened so that they're closer to how they were in BW. In BW, Terran had tier 4.5 (rax -> fact -> port -> science facility -> SF add-on), and protoss had tier 5 (gate -> core -> citadel + stargate -> templar archives -> arbiter tribunal). Why did they shorten the tech-trees so much?
What I'd like to see is for the fusion core to gain a couple of add-ons: one for researching ultra-lategame upgrades for factory units, and one for researching ultra-lategame upgrades for starport units, and allowing battlecruiser production.
How about some sort of damage upgrades available for siege tanks? What about upgrades like the ones in the campaign? Less damage to friendly units, more damage to primary target (without affecting splash), come on blizzard! Get creative!
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On July 12 2014 23:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 23:48 IKizzy wrote:
I just played a protoss who proxy gated me, I went for a reaper expand and held it off, behind his FAILED proxy gate, he expands, goes darkshrine AND double forge then takes a third with literally a MSC, zealot, stalker and dt. He has 3-3 before I even had 2-2 (I was being very diligent about my upgrades mind) I cant leave my base cause he also somehow found money and time for a Robo and warp prism with dt harass, i take my third and he just attacks with Zealots Archons and dts, didn't even bring his MSC, I just die, (I had ghosts during this attack as well, they were practically worthless) I'm not one to complain about balance, but that was literally the stupidest game I have ever played. Replay or it didn't happen. Seriously, if the game actually played out exactly the way you described it, NO ONE would be playing Terran at all. Sure Terran is a bit UP especially in TvP at the moment, but please for fucks sake stop with these hyperboles. How much did he delay you with the proxy gate? How many gates were proxied and was he making probes throughout the attack? How prepared were you for the DTs? Were there any timing windows that you could have just walked your bio across the map and kill him? (I mean he is TRIPLE nexus'ing after a failed proxy with DOUBLE forge and tech... LOL?) Lastly, your league is relevant. Shit happens in lower leagues, and I won't argue with you that protoss is easier to play/a-move at lower levels.
High Diamond, only one gate was proxied, held it off without losing anything, only thing delayed was widow mine drop which was only for about 10-15 secs, I rewatched the replay (I dont kinow how to upload them srry) he took his third about a minute after he threw down the double forge and dt shrine
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[QUOTE]On July 13 2014 00:00 Hider wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 12 2014 23:48 IKizzy wrote:
I just played a protoss who proxy gated me, I went for a reaper expand and held it off, behind his FAILED proxy gate, he expands, goes darkshrine AND double forge then takes a third with literally a MSC, zealot, stalker and dt. He has 3-3 before I even had 2-2 (I was being very diligent about my upgrades mind) I cant leave my base cause he also somehow found money and time for a Robo and warp prism with dt harass, i take my third and he just attacks with Zealots Archons and dts, didn't even bring his MSC, I just die, (I had ghosts during this attack as well, they were practically worthless) I'm not one to complain about balance, but that was literally the stupidest game I have ever played.[/QUOTE]
Lol, kill his 3rd before it goes up then.
Cant kill his third, kept back by dts and warp prism, read the post please
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[QUOTE]On July 13 2014 06:17 IKizzy wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 13 2014 00:00 Hider wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 12 2014 23:48 IKizzy wrote:
I just played a protoss who proxy gated me, I went for a reaper expand and held it off, behind his FAILED proxy gate, he expands, goes darkshrine AND double forge then takes a third with literally a MSC, zealot, stalker and dt. He has 3-3 before I even had 2-2 (I was being very diligent about my upgrades mind) I cant leave my base cause he also somehow found money and time for a Robo and warp prism with dt harass, i take my third and he just attacks with Zealots Archons and dts, didn't even bring his MSC, I just die, (I had ghosts during this attack as well, they were practically worthless) I'm not one to complain about balance, but that was literally the stupidest game I have ever played.[/QUOTE]
Lol, kill his 3rd before it goes up then.
Cant kill his third, kept back by dts and warp prism, read the post please
[/QUOTE]
Save scans/transport your army through medivacs to his 3rd.
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On July 13 2014 06:16 IKizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 23:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On July 12 2014 23:48 IKizzy wrote:
I just played a protoss who proxy gated me, I went for a reaper expand and held it off, behind his FAILED proxy gate, he expands, goes darkshrine AND double forge then takes a third with literally a MSC, zealot, stalker and dt. He has 3-3 before I even had 2-2 (I was being very diligent about my upgrades mind) I cant leave my base cause he also somehow found money and time for a Robo and warp prism with dt harass, i take my third and he just attacks with Zealots Archons and dts, didn't even bring his MSC, I just die, (I had ghosts during this attack as well, they were practically worthless) I'm not one to complain about balance, but that was literally the stupidest game I have ever played. Replay or it didn't happen. Seriously, if the game actually played out exactly the way you described it, NO ONE would be playing Terran at all. Sure Terran is a bit UP especially in TvP at the moment, but please for fucks sake stop with these hyperboles. How much did he delay you with the proxy gate? How many gates were proxied and was he making probes throughout the attack? How prepared were you for the DTs? Were there any timing windows that you could have just walked your bio across the map and kill him? (I mean he is TRIPLE nexus'ing after a failed proxy with DOUBLE forge and tech... LOL?) Lastly, your league is relevant. Shit happens in lower leagues, and I won't argue with you that protoss is easier to play/a-move at lower levels. High Diamond, only one gate was proxied, held it off without losing anything, only thing delayed was widow mine drop which was only for about 10-15 secs, I rewatched the replay (I dont kinow how to upload them srry) he took his third about a minute after he threw down the double forge and dt shrine
Replay please.
http://www.drop.sc
Click on that big upload button top right, you don't need to signup/login at all. Should only take you 20 seconds, I'm genuinely interested in seeing this outrageous game.
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On July 13 2014 11:45 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2014 06:16 IKizzy wrote:On July 12 2014 23:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On July 12 2014 23:48 IKizzy wrote:
I just played a protoss who proxy gated me, I went for a reaper expand and held it off, behind his FAILED proxy gate, he expands, goes darkshrine AND double forge then takes a third with literally a MSC, zealot, stalker and dt. He has 3-3 before I even had 2-2 (I was being very diligent about my upgrades mind) I cant leave my base cause he also somehow found money and time for a Robo and warp prism with dt harass, i take my third and he just attacks with Zealots Archons and dts, didn't even bring his MSC, I just die, (I had ghosts during this attack as well, they were practically worthless) I'm not one to complain about balance, but that was literally the stupidest game I have ever played. Replay or it didn't happen. Seriously, if the game actually played out exactly the way you described it, NO ONE would be playing Terran at all. Sure Terran is a bit UP especially in TvP at the moment, but please for fucks sake stop with these hyperboles. How much did he delay you with the proxy gate? How many gates were proxied and was he making probes throughout the attack? How prepared were you for the DTs? Were there any timing windows that you could have just walked your bio across the map and kill him? (I mean he is TRIPLE nexus'ing after a failed proxy with DOUBLE forge and tech... LOL?) Lastly, your league is relevant. Shit happens in lower leagues, and I won't argue with you that protoss is easier to play/a-move at lower levels. High Diamond, only one gate was proxied, held it off without losing anything, only thing delayed was widow mine drop which was only for about 10-15 secs, I rewatched the replay (I dont kinow how to upload them srry) he took his third about a minute after he threw down the double forge and dt shrine Replay please. http://www.drop.scClick on that big upload button top right, you don't need to signup/login at all. Should only take you 20 seconds, I'm genuinely interested in seeing this outrageous game.
Me too ! I kinda have doubts to be honest.
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EPT
