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On July 02 2014 23:32 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 23:11 Redfish wrote:
Reaper - I'm troubled by this, as I think it would be too good late game. Terran already has the best static defense in the game against Zealot/DT harrass. If you build Turrets and a PF, you're set, so I really don't think that this is an issue. Even if a Protoss warps in 8 DTs to try and pop it, that's a 1000/1000 investment that's not in their main army, and if there's a proper reaction time for SCV repair, you can hold it.
First off, the only place Planetaries are going to be found is a 4th and maybe a 5th. Due to their size and cost you will never find them in the main, natural or third so those bases can be freely decimated by Protoss drops. Furthermore, you don't warp in 8 DTs, you warp in 8 chargelots to wreck the Terran main. They do just fine on autopilot with Charge and will require a decent number of Marine/Marauder to be cleaned up. The Planetary is only the best defense when you can put your army next to it and it is placed as a 4th or 5th. Otherwise is a big waste of minerals and gas that can be easily avoided. Furthermore, a PF does not help at all against Stalkers behind the mineral line or a Storm drop. Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 23:11 Redfish wrote:
Tempest - Despite what you may think, no, this is not overkill versus Brood Lords because of the Viper abduct problem late game.
You can three shot a Brood Lord from 15 range. How is Viper abduct going to be able to consistenly prevent that from happening? Especially when you mix in HT to Feedback any Vipers on the field. Battlecruisers are dead weight in TvP because they are so easily countered by Tempests as well as that they are so slow to produce and very expensive. The latter two is worked into the unit somewhat but Tempests currently just say no to Battlecruisers completely. Even Ravens with PDDs are very risky to add because of the cost, the fact HT will instantly neutralize them, as well as that they add very little to a ground army should Protoss switch to that. Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 23:11 Redfish wrote:
You talk about a disparity in reproducibility - late game, a Terran will be the one that has more effective reproducibility than Protoss, at least in units that matter. Massing a gateway-heavy army against a Mech army is a poor and inefficient choice, and so you can't really factor in warping in a bunch of units as heavily as you'd think.
This assumes the Mech army wins the engagement with a landslide victory. If both armies trade somewhat evenly, the Mech army takes much longer to reproduce and the new units have to slowly move to the army whilst the Warp-in provides an instant replenishment on-site. Sure it may not be the most efficient to warp-in 15 Chargelots against a Mech army, but if that Mech army already traded once, the sheer number can straight up overwhelm what is left, similarly to a Bio army. Keep in mind it takes a whole Factory with a Tech Lab over 45 seconds to produce a single Siege Tank, 60 seconds for a single Thor, both of which will have to slowly move across the map to join the army. Those 15 Chargelots, efficient or not, are there instantly, close to the army. You can even warp in two cycles before the Mech reinforcements arrive. You also still get to choose what you want to warp-in to deal with what is left. A lot of Hellbats left but few Tanks? Warp-in Archons. Lots of Tanks left but few support units? Warp-in mass Chargelot. You do have a point in that Protoss can only warp-in Gateway units but that is still a massive advantage of the production over Mech units. Even against heavy Starport play you could still warp-in 15 Stalkers.
1 - If you're having trouble with Warp Prisms getting into the main, then build up turrets and keep a hellbat or two in the main or peel off a couple vikings to hunt Prisms. Turrets are cheap and Hellbats wreck Zealots. It's not unlike Protoss having to keep a few Templar at home to deal with Doom Drop possibilities, and we have to invest in cannons too. If it's harder for pure Bio to defend, well, perhaps this along with all the other buffs to Mech are meant to be saying something. And for information's sake, an Immortal takes 10 seconds longer than a Tank to produce. They also move at the same speed, so if you unsiege and fall back, they won't catch your tanks.
2 - Here's how the Viper problem works against P. Keep your BLs behind your static defense wall, any Queens or Corruptors stay with the wall. Shoot a wave of Locusts (free units! grr) from Swarm Hosts forward to kill any HT that try and come up to feedback, move your Vipers up behind the Locusts, abduct the Tempests and any other high cost units back into the Static D/Corruptors/Queens. Rinse and Repeat. The only way you can't do that is if Oracles get a good envision on the Vipers so you can snipe them with Tempests. A Tempest has less DPS than a single stimmed Marine against non-massive and ground though, so it takes awhile.
3 - In all of those scenarios you listed, I see no reason why you wouldn't fall back to your closest base. I watched Goody's stream yesterday and he Meched vs Toss all day and wrecked them. All he did was trade, see what he needed to replenish, pull back to where his reinforcements were coming, and then move back out once his army was well-rounded again. He made sure to check for pylons and scan potential attack angles and there was nothing the Protosses could do - they'd eventually be unable to clean up a push due to trade deficits and tap out.
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I think there are some interesting options for Terran buffs, but the problem is that most of them would make bio unplayable in TvT. If all Terrans were willing to play mech vs. mech in TvT you could start doing things like making Tanks 50 damage instead of 35 + 15 armored.
But I really enjoy watching mech vs. bio.. after all that Taeja Innovation game is still one of the greatest SC2 games of all time. So I dunno.
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Lol I think Blizzard employees don't want to hear your suggestion TheDwf . I posted a thread in bnet forums that linked all the suggestion you made on this thread p34 and it got deleted few minutes after.
My guess is that they don't want to hear argumented suggestion and prefer trollish non argumented suggestion that grew up everytime on those forums.
Maybe this is a conspiracy to delete every intelligent feedback on Bnet forums other than MVP posters.
I'm really surprised by that.
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On July 03 2014 00:05 Redfish wrote:
1 - If you're having trouble with Warp Prisms getting into the main, then build up turrets and keep a hellbat or two in the main or peel off a couple vikings to hunt Prisms. Turrets are cheap and Hellbats wreck Zealots. It's not unlike Protoss having to keep a few Templar at home to deal with Doom Drop possibilities, and we have to invest in cannons too.
Holy crap, have you ever tried to understand the TvP match up from the T side ?
No, building turrets isn't possible to avoid warp prism, to be protected from warp prism you would have to spend an incredible amount of turrets, and that's not possible when you play bio (especially if you need to get ghosts).
Kepping hellbats in the main and vikings to patrol or hunt warp prisms, hmm no, a warp prism can litterally make appear 12 zealots in your main, 2 hellbats wont hold it, it just won't. Anyway you can't remove these supplies from your main army or you'll get raped, hard.
About the need for protoss to make cannons and keep a few HT back to defend drops : guess what cannons are static defense they don't take supply, hit both air and ground, and are detectors. Give me such static defense and i'll gladly pay for them to secure a base. It also appears that they cost only mineral, what protoss needs to dump ? mineral or gas ? Yeah.
And a maxed protoss can keep a few HT back to fight a maxed terran.
That's the whole problem of lategame with bio, terran needs to fight with its whole army or not make any frontal fight.
That's why zealot/dt harass especially with prism warping in the main, is such a pain in the ass to defend. Because you need 30 supply away from your army to push it back without losing most of these units. The opposite is obviously not true.
Try to comment on something you understand a minimum.
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I think tanks and widow mines should be able to merge into a tank with widow mine equiped on top of it. The widow mine supply would become available again, thus creating the option to enhance the terran army without increasing the supply count.
Just my 2 terran cents 
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Terran has a 40% win rate in Proleague Round 4, and only a 24% win rate against Protoss. Sorry but that is not "slightly weaker."
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On July 02 2014 23:11 Redfish wrote:
Widow Mine - Reverting TvZ back to a more Mine-centric style would be disastrous. Do you remember the rally-point Terran days of earlier HotS? That domination of Terrans then was more crushing than what's happening now. I'd much rather push for a solution that would make more underused units such as the Siege Tank more effective.
No, people have false notions about 4M because they built their representation of the thing before the days Zerg adapted. I talked about the evolution of anti-4M play in the ZParcraft II article, there is absolutely no domination to fear as this domination was already gone even with the old Mine; how could it come back when the change I propose results in an inferior Mine compared with the initial one? Plus if it was conditioned to Drilling Claws it would not even come back before ~14'+.
Bringing the Tank as the staple AoE unit in bio TvZ is absolutely impossible without massive changes to the way TvZ functions post-Queen patch and with the HotS additions. You talk about the repercussions of my propositions on other match-ups, but did you even think about the consequences of Tanks shots slowing down troops in TvT?…
Reaper - I'm troubled by this, as I think it would be too good late game. Terran already has the best static defense in the game against Zealot/DT harrass. If you build Turrets and a PF, you're set, so I really don't think that this is an issue. Even if a Protoss warps in 8 DTs to try and pop it, that's a 1000/1000 investment that's not in their main army, and if there's a proper reaction time for SCV repair, you can hold it. I can also see a pack of 12 reapers or so decimating Z and P bases way too quickly - if that's going to be a thing to contend with late game, then either Static D (from P or Z) or Warp-Ins need to be a viable defense to it, and this change would render both of them moot. One way I could see this possibly working is if their building-attack cost energy so that they couldn't just wreck a line of bases - 15 or so - but right now the reaper design as a scouting unit is holding it back a lot. There are lots of units you don't see late game in all of the races, so unfortunately the Reaper's problem is not unique.
?? Those are literally the WoL Reapers with 0.37 extra movespeed, 10 extra hit points and the ability to regen out of fight (i.e. minor changes). Did WoL Reapers dominate lategame TvP? Certainly not. ThorZaIN was pretty much the only player I saw use them. Balance-wise you cannot seriously argue this change can threaten lategame TvP, and even less TvZ...
Tempest - Despite what you may think, no, this is not overkill versus Brood Lords because of the Viper abduct problem late game. The infamous MaNa v FireCake game illustrated this. The Tempest/Oracle envision/Massive dmg synergy is essential to being able to compete against a Zerg that is advancing with a Spine/Spore wall and high-tech army late game - you need to be able to clear out the Broodlords so you can advance with other units to push back the wall, otherwise there's no way to halt the advance. I also think you really don't understand the necessity of this in PvP, and despite what you say, balancing mirrors does matter. Remember the Hellbat drop TvT days? Would it have been prudent to say "both sides have Hellbats so it doesn't matter?" Of course not. PvP used to be nothing but Colossus wars and taking away the Tempest's ability to snipe colossi would break the mirror. I feel for you about not seeing BCs - they're actually my favorite unit in the game - but you also don't see Carriers often, so again, Terran is not unique here. I'd look for ways to buff or upgrade the BC to have it work better with other units - perhaps a Guardian Shield-type ability so that one or two in your army, in addition to sniping a few valuable units with Yamato Cannon, could definitely turn the tide of a battle.
Unsure you can seriously argue that killing broods in 4 shots instead of 3 is so critical? But I let Protoss experts talk about that. As for mirrors, it is my opinion they matter less unless the changes cause catastrophic gameplay; stim buff and Tanks having bonus damage vs Thors would have some impact too in TvT, but I consider it irrelevant. If my proposed change was bringing PvP back to something like mirror 4g you would have a point, but if it means a bit more colo mirrors instead of zeals/archons/immos or whatever is currently played I see no difference other than quality of life.
But this Tempest proposition is an annex anyway, it's not mandatory at all; people apparently want to see Battlecruisers more often, but they should never expect to see them in lategame TvP against Tempests dealing 89 damage from 15 range. And no, turning the Battlecruiser into some kind of gimmicky hero-like unit à la MSC is certainly not the solution.
Immortal and Archon - As you point out, changing the Immortal's shield in the way you described would overpower Ultralisks in late game ZvP. They'd do double damage, and Protoss has no other options at that level to deal with them. Voids don't work because of Queens and Hydras, Tempests don't get a bonus and get shot down easily by Queens and Hydras as well, and Carriers kill them hilariously slow due to their armor.
I did not say at all it would make ultras too powerful in lategame ZvP, I simply wrote what the change would be like. Sorry but if ultras are butchering your immos, isn't it because you already lost the fight? Aren't immos supposed to be behind your melee line of Zealots and Archons? Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see ultras dominating ZvP right now. As I understand things, either you have the critical mass to hold ultras while immos gun them down and you win, either you don't and you lose. I don't think a weaker variant of Hardened Shields would make much difference there.
You talk about a disparity in reproducibility - late game, a Terran will be the one that has more effective reproducibility than Protoss, at least in units that matter. Massing a gateway-heavy army against a Mech army is a poor and inefficient choice, and so you can't really factor in warping in a bunch of units as heavily as you'd think.
What? You're telling me Protoss isn't interested in Zealots and Archons against mech? And a Protoss does rebuild much faster, even if you have only 2 immos to 4 Tanks in production, because you don't need as many immos as there are Tanks.
Things would have to be tested but the point of those changes would be to create an interesting dynamic in which Protoss plays a role similar to the Terran playing bio vs mech.
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On July 03 2014 00:35 _fool wrote:I think tanks and widow mines should be able to merge into a tank with widow mine equiped on top of it. The widow mine supply would become available again, thus creating the option to enhance the terran army without increasing the supply count. Just my 2 terran cents
with the Terran transforming units being introduced into SC2...
i was thinking the Tank should be able to transform into a Science Vessel.
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I don't know, doesn't seem like good buffs. Medivacs are already one of the most fun stuffs to use for even an underpowered Terran race, so I don't see the need to buff it.
Mines... meh. Maybe. I would like to see some kind of reduced friendly fire damages. As it stands right now they probably kill more Terran units than Protoss and Zerg units.
Voted no to both changes, but ideally I would want to see Terran as strong as the other 2 races ;D
Buff the viking ground mode! I like vikings.
?? Those are literally the WoL Reapers with 0.37 extra movespeed, 10 extra hit points and the ability to regen out of fight (i.e. minor changes).
Your forgot, with less dps :D
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On July 03 2014 00:41 TheDwf wrote:
Bringing the Tank as the staple AoE unit in bio TvZ is absolutely impossible without massive changes to the way TvZ functions post-Queen patch and with the HotS additions. You talk about the repercussions of my propositions on other match-ups, but did you even think about the consequences of Tanks shots slowing down troops in TvT?…
The Widow Mine has sadly replaced the Tank. It is more cost effective, sets up faster, is more forgiving of mistakes, and is easier to manage. For these reasons, it provides less opportunity for skill.
But, we'll never see Tanks return because of the Muta buff, unless they are buffed dramatically.
Personally, I think we are too far down the rabbit hole. Blizzard had their chances to really fix and develop the game with HOTS, but they made a real mess of it, and I've been arguing that since the Beta. They keep introducing units and abilities that take less skills than the ones they replace, like Photon Overcharge, Widow Mines and Vipers.
Whatever happened to properly positioning Siege Tanks, or scouting thoroughly as Protoss and building units early (and I play Protoss)? As I've said since Beta, pressing one key and stopping an early attack is just ridiculous, and it doesn't represent what made Starcraft great.
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On July 02 2014 02:09 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
"Let's buff the two most annoying Terran units, and do nothing to promote other styles of play."
Ok.
I feel the same way. The hellbat buff was cool prompting some new openings
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I'm a terran and i'm a bit unsure of the medivac buff. I dont see how thats gonna promote more diverse play just more drop harassment.
I'm all for the widow mine buff though. I think that will help a ton. Esp tvz which terran has been going downhill in lately.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
the hellbat change already makes tvz terran favored untill mid-late game, these changes will just amplify that and screw up the matchup pretty hard, I think.
The problem with terran is not a widow mine buff, or a medivac buff, the problem is protoss.
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Some explanation for those who do not quite understand which the medivac changes were proposed.
Terran is very much a "siege" race. Even bio mine, in theory at least, works such that a minefield gives the terran a defensive outpost close to a zerg base which cannot easily be overrun. From this position the T then "sieges" the zerg by constantly poking and retreating trying to snipe units and lure the enemy into the defensive position. In that way, mines and siege tanks are very much alike.
The issue of these siege positions, just like in TvT is getting to the offensive siege position. Tanks and mines whilst walking are in a very weak position. The T therefore drops to pull the enemy out of position to move across the map and establish this sieging position.
This is the theory of marine tank and of tvz aside from the fact that mines are obviously more mobile but they accomplish the same thing.
Buffing the dropping power is an attempt to recreate this scenario which has been absent due to the fact of how incredibly good zergs are at defending these drops. Catching the terran on the move in an "unsieged/burrowed" position can often be game ending.
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Add a +1 marine range upgrade. That costs 150/150 and takes a while to research. So it doesn't break early game.
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I just think we hit a point where the 2 other races figured out too much how to play against Terran and to abuse some of their weaknesses, so now even with 3-4 consecutive rebalancing favorable to Terrans they still lose as much. The problem with Terran is probably more fundamental than that.
Think of how "threatened" you feel when you play the game. In TvP I cower in fear of an unscouted oracle opening, rallying all I can muster of anti-air in my mineral line. In PvT well... you make a mothership core, is that how it works?
Other races need to feel threatened again by what Terran does. Then they won't grab a monstrous economy, then in turn you'll rebalance the game around that.
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On July 03 2014 00:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
the hellbat change already makes tvz terran favored untill mid-late game, these changes will just amplify that and screw up the matchup pretty hard, I think.
The problem with terran is not a widow mine buff, or a medivac buff, the problem is protoss.
Stop whining Ret, Zerg has been dominating Terran as well. Lack of splash vs. banelings is a clear issue in that matchup.
The Hellbat opening just requires Z to be a little bit more proactive. You can't just throw speedlings at the problem like Jaedong tried vs. Taeja.
User was warned for this post
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On July 03 2014 00:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
the hellbat change already makes tvz terran favored untill mid-late game, these changes will just amplify that and screw up the matchup pretty hard, I think.
The problem with terran is not a widow mine buff, or a medivac buff, the problem is protoss.
How do you come to the conclusion that tvz is terran favoured until the midgame. The hellbat timings are essentially a form of all in as the heaviest 8 min timings cuts 15 SCVs. If you think of the quick hellbat timing as an all in would you still call it a terran favoured midgame?
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:01 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 00:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
the hellbat change already makes tvz terran favored untill mid-late game, these changes will just amplify that and screw up the matchup pretty hard, I think.
The problem with terran is not a widow mine buff, or a medivac buff, the problem is protoss. Stop whining Ret, Zerg has been dominating Terran as well. Lack of splash vs. banelings is a clear issue in that matchup. The Hellbat opening just requires Z to be a little bit more proactive. You can't just throw speedlings at the problem like Jaedong tried vs. Taeja.
okay expert
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So far:
There seems to be a large approval to the idea of Terran needing help, but quite a tiny approval to the suggested buffs.
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EPT
