EPTI like the proposed mech changes a lot. I still find it baffling how some sort of serious Tank buff like that was not even tried during BETA.
Terran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 39
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
I like the proposed mech changes a lot. I still find it baffling how some sort of serious Tank buff like that was not even tried during BETA. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:01 ZenithM wrote: Think of how "threatened" you feel when you play the game. In TvP I cower in fear of an unscouted oracle opening, rallying all I can muster of anti-air in my mineral line. In PvT well... you make a mothership core, is that how it works? So scout? The problem with SC2 isn't unscouted openings being too strong. The problem is when you know exactly what is coming long before it, have planned for it, and still can't stop it. Scouting is a skill (I'd argue HOTS makes it too easy). The 1-1-1 and 4 Gate were excellent examples of this in WOL. In HOTS, Blink Stalker all-ins versus Terran are probably the best example. And if for some reason your scout is denied or you are unsure, then you play the safest possibly route, which is to send Marines or a Widow Mine to the mineral or make Turrets. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
You obviously have way more experience playing the game than me. But when you write a post like that it all goes out the window man. "The problem is Protoss." Okay Ret. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
On July 03 2014 00:57 Liquid`Ret wrote: the hellbat change already makes tvz terran favored untill mid-late game, these changes will just amplify that and screw up the matchup pretty hard, I think. The problem with terran is not a widow mine buff, or a medivac buff, the problem is protoss. Terrans didn't go Widow Mine early game prior to the Widow Mine nerf anyway. It's purely a mid/later game-thing, which is very needed. With stronger Widow mines, terran have an easier time killing the creep/pressuring a zerg with 80+drones in the midgame, which should put him in a stronger position going into the later game. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:06 Sapphire.lux wrote: TheDwf for president! I like the proposed mech changes a lot. I still find it baffling how some sort of serious Tank buff like that was not even tried during BETA. I want to take you back... way to back to when David Kim said this: On September 20 2012 David Kim wrote: 1. All mech revolving around Siege Tanks makes Terran want to sit back and defend for a very long time. He had apparently never watched a game of Brood War. And he said this while he was creating the Swarm Host! Just more evidence of his inability to understand this game. Meanwhile the community and I were asking for Tank Buffs: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viable | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
You not winning in ZvT doesn't make ZvT more balanced. Stats for the last month is in no way in favor of terrans in the MU, and the number of terran is still shrinking. Terran need buff in the 2 MU. It might looks like terran would be too strong for a while, but it will eventually even out and we might come back to a 1/3 race distribution. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:07 DinoMight wrote: You obviously have way more experience playing the game than me. But when you write a post like that it all goes out the window man. "The problem is Protoss." Okay Ret. Well, lately (at least) in Korea it seems like TvZ is only slightly Zerg favored, while Protoss sometimes peaks at something 13-4 in proleague, >80% winrate in Code A Season 1 or its B-lineup going 33-20 against Terrans A-lineup in the Code A qualifiers. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:10 BronzeKnee wrote: I want to take you back... way to back to when David Kim said this: He had apparently never watched a game of Brood War. And he said this while he was creating the Swarm Host. Meanwhile the community and I were asking for Tank Buffs: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viable Well it's kinda true that if the mech composition is too tank/Raven-heavy then it will be turtlebased. Instead, I find mech a ton more interesting when you combine it with Medivacs/Dropships and go heavy Hellion/Hellbat/Vulture as it allows for more agression. David Kim is IMO not incorrect in not wanting to buff turtlebased mech, however he lacks understanding of changing only the variables which will incentivize more aggressionbased mech. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:07 BronzeKnee wrote: So scout? The problem with SC2 isn't unscouted openings being too strong. The problem is when you know exactly what is coming long before it, have planned for it, and still can't stop it. Scouting is a skill (I'd argue HOTS makes it too easy). The 1-1-1 and 4 Gate were excellent examples of this in WOL. In HOTS, Blink Stalker all-ins versus Terran are probably the best example. And if for some reason your scout is denied or you are unsure, then you play the safest possibly route, which is to send Marines or a Widow Mine to the mineral or make Turrets. I mean, he's right. I feel a lot safer playing PvT than TvP.. (but that's probably because I'm more used to PvT). But the roles are reversed later in the game. When I'm Protoss and I'm trying to take my 3rd and I'm getting attacked everywhere by Medivacs... I think that's pretty scary too. I think smaller rush distances might help open up Terran aggressive options in the early game. If you think of Protoss cheese it either flies or has warp tech meaning the large maps don't make a difference. But for Terrans that have to walk across the map it would help. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:07 BronzeKnee wrote: So scout? The problem with SC2 isn't unscouted openings being too strong. The problem is when you know exactly what is coming long before it, have planned for it, and still can't stop it. Scouting is a skill (I'd argue HOTS makes it too easy). The 1-1-1 and 4 Gate were excellent examples of this in WOL. In HOTS, Blink Stalker all-ins versus Terran are probably the best example. And if for some reason your scout is denied or you are unsure, then you play the safest possibly route, which is to send Marines or a Widow Mine to the mineral or make Turrets. I personally think Terran has more scouting to do than Protoss, which is only a consequence of how differently dangerous the races are early game. The problem is that Protoss is ALSO more dangerous in late game. The only time I see Terran being able to do anything non-gimmicky is with your first medivacs (as always), but it's not nearly as effective as in WoL. | ||
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FaiFai
Peru53 Posts
If David Kim argument to try this changes is that :"Medivac harass has been getting weaker since the beginning of HotS due to players improving at defending against them", i think he just can't buff a unit just bcoz the other players improve their habilities to deal with the drops, then the solution is that terran players improve his tactics to make their drops more effective. It could make TvT more interesting but i think is unfair for protoss and zerg players that improve to deal with the drops. About widow mines if increase the splash radius, the other players don't have to split their units, bcoz anyway they gona lose the most of their units with this change, it gona break the TvP and the TvZ, at least make that mines have very low damage if they activate automatically, and to do more damage the terran players should activate them like burrow banelings, or something like that, if gona buff the mines at least make that the players have a certain hability to use them and not just burrow them. Also take the proscene tournaments feedback its a little tricky bcoz many of the prottoss won the rounds with their variabillity of all ins, semi all ins, and not always pass the better player, especially in the best of 3, if gona take the feedback take the proescene long macro games. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:13 Hider wrote: Well it's kinda true that if the mech composition is too tank/Raven-heavy then it will be turtlebased. Instead, I find mech a ton more interesting when you combine it with Medivacs/Dropships and go heavy Hellion/Hellbat/Vulture as it allows for more agression. David Kim is IMO not incorrect in not wanting to buff turtlebased mech, however he lacks understanding of changing only the variables which will incentivize more aggressionbased mech. Correct me if I am wrong, but turtle based Mech has never existed as viable strategy in SC2. Ever from what I remember... and the response is obvious: Expand and take a massive economic advantage. And that really highlights the logical problems with his thinking. He is so afraid of something that hasn't happen and what could be, that he is unwilling to fix what we know is broken. But that is how real work and real change happen in world. Yes, you create new problems stuff a long the way, but you keep fixing, and keeping fixing and keep changing. You never stop improving. And if by God's grace David Kim saved us from turtle Mech and I am completely wrong, did he not create turtle Zerg with Swarm Hosts and the longest SC2 games ever? On July 03 2014 01:15 ZenithM wrote: I personally think Terran has more scouting to do than Protoss, which is only a consequence of how differently dangerous the races are early game. The problem is that Protoss is ALSO more dangerous in late game. The only time I see Terran being able to do anything non-gimmicky is with your first medivacs (as always), but it's not nearly as effective as in WoL. Surely, but Terran also has significantly better scouting tools. I can't deny Scans in anyway, and Reapers are probably the best scouts in the game. | ||
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
You should be able to downvote the shit out of posts on this forum. As it is, the only way for other people to show their disagreement with the assholes, and to show that in general, the community does not have similar opinions, is for us to write out a big ol paragraph like this explaining why. It would be much easier if we could just thumb em down to oblivion. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:10 BronzeKnee wrote: I want to take you back... way to back to when David Kim said this: He had apparently never watched a game of Brood War. And he said this while he was creating the Swarm Host! Just more evidence of his inability to understand this game. Meanwhile the community and I were asking for Tank Buffs: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viable Found the entire thing + Show Spoiler + Our latest thinking on HotS mech: 1. All mech revolving around Siege Tanks makes Terran want to sit back and defend for a very long time. We're not sure what the correct ratio of this sort of play would be against how Terran players play now. 2. Mech revolving around a more all round/slightly mobile unit didn't work out with the Warhound. 3. Widow Mine being a more useful option is looking to be a really fun add to mech. We really want to focus on making this unit awesome for now and see where it goes. 4. Battle mode Hellions being built as a separate unit feels good for now due to how different this unit is from the hellion. We've been playing around with Battle Hellions that have Biological flag (can be healed my Medivacs), and are seeing more bio + mech cominations. So overall, we think it'll be good if players in the beta really focus on the Widow Mines and Battle Hellions in the next couple weeks to really figure out their potential. They were bassically buthurt after we rejected the Warhound and gave up on their promise to make mech viable. Having said that, i suspect it is not David Kim that is to blame for this, but mister terrible terrible damage. The only mech buffs (including a small tank buff) and a slight change in philosophy (think Blizzcon where DK stated he wanted to make mech viable TvZ AND TvP) happened when Dustin left the building to focus on the MOBA. | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:07 DinoMight wrote: You obviously have way more experience playing the game than me. But when you write a post like that it all goes out the window man. "The problem is Protoss." Okay Ret. I said that tvz is terran-favored untill mid-late game. Late game Zerg is favored. If you do an amazing job defending terrans openings and can carry it untill late evenly (which is now much more challenging because of the hellbat change), Zerg is still favored. So the hellbat change was infact a really bad way to adress the problem in the matchup, since the problem lies much more deep in the unit compositions for both Zerg and Terran in the late-game. A simply building into transformation change was never going to adress the late game unit composition problem terran has. The widow mine change would be a better way, if you combine both I think it's over the top. The problem is Protoss...it's too easy to play the builds from the great book of protoss bullshit and the reason Terrans are doing so poorly is because P>T. I don't feel like elaborating or speaking with people who don't already comprehend on some basic level of why protoss is a joke. To the guy saying its cause I don't win games...dont be ridiculous and unnessecarily hatefull. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:23 MichaelDonovan wrote: Woah why is everyone shitting on Ret? Let's get off of our gold league fanaticism and listen to a professional, okay people? . Listen, I like Ret and haven't criticized him, but this is just dumb. It is the logical fallacy of authority. Wrong is wrong and right is right, no matter who says or does it. Just because he plays the game for a living doesn't mean he is right. His arguments needs to stand independent of him. If his arguments suddenly hold less weight when I repeat them, then your logic is flawed and you are only believing them because he is Ret, which is a terrible reason to believe anything. | ||
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
On July 03 2014 00:41 TheDwf wrote: No, people have false notions about 4M because they built their representation of the thing before the days Zerg adapted. I talked about the evolution of anti-4M play in the ZParcraft II article, there is absolutely no domination to fear as this domination was already gone even with the old Mine; how could it come back when the change I propose results in an inferior Mine compared with the initial one? Plus if it was conditioned to Drilling Claws it would not even come back before ~14'+. Bringing the Tank as the staple AoE unit in bio TvZ is absolutely impossible without massive changes to the way TvZ functions post-Queen patch and with the HotS additions. You talk about the repercussions of my propositions on other match-ups, but did you even think about the consequences of Tanks shots slowing down troops in TvT?… ?? Those are literally the WoL Reapers with 0.37 extra movespeed, 10 extra hit points and the ability to regen out of fight (i.e. minor changes). Did WoL Reapers dominate lategame TvP? Certainly not. ThorZaIN was pretty much the only player I saw use them. Balance-wise you cannot seriously argue this change can threaten lategame TvP, and even less TvZ... Unsure you can seriously argue that killing broods in 4 shots instead of 3 is so critical? But I let Protoss experts talk about that. As for mirrors, it is my opinion they matter less unless the changes cause catastrophic gameplay; stim buff and Tanks having bonus damage vs Thors would have some impact too in TvT, but I consider it irrelevant. If my proposed change was bringing PvP back to something like mirror 4g you would have a point, but if it means a bit more colo mirrors instead of zeals/archons/immos or whatever is currently played I see no difference other than quality of life. But this Tempest proposition is an annex anyway, it's not mandatory at all; people apparently want to see Battlecruisers more often, but they should never expect to see them in lategame TvP against Tempests dealing 89 damage from 15 range. And no, turning the Battlecruiser into some kind of gimmicky hero-like unit à la MSC is certainly not the solution. I did not say at all it would make ultras too powerful in lategame ZvP, I simply wrote what the change would be like. Sorry but if ultras are butchering your immos, isn't it because you already lost the fight? Aren't immos supposed to be behind your melee line of Zealots and Archons? Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see ultras dominating ZvP right now. As I understand things, either you have the critical mass to hold ultras while immos gun them down and you win, either you don't and you lose. I don't think a weaker variant of Hardened Shields would make much difference there. What? You're telling me Protoss isn't interested in Zealots and Archons against mech? And a Protoss does rebuild much faster, even if you have only 2 immos to 4 Tanks in production, because you don't need as many immos as there are Tanks. Things would have to be tested but the point of those changes would be to create an interesting dynamic in which Protoss plays a role similar to the Terran playing bio vs mech. 1 - Then what's to say that we haven't built our understanding of Protoss now based on the times before Terran have adapted? You make plenty of points to say that Zerg and Protoss had to change their play to adapt to the new Terran styles (something I would consider wrong, one race dictating the way the rest had to play - remember when Protoss had to open Robo against Terran or die?), but you say absolutely nothing about the fact that practically no Terrans are taking the time to learn and master Mech with things like the upgrade buffs being put into play and so many Terrans clinging to a dated, predictable Bio style. I also find it excessively confusing that so many of the Terran arguments in this thread come from a standpoint of assuming that using all tools available to you isn't possible because you don't like the playstyle. I'm sorry if all you want to use is Marines, Marauders, Medivacs and Ghosts - I want to mix in Stargate units in PvT, but I can't. You have to get past the road block of looking at your race as simply "Bio" or "Mech" and look at it as "Terran". I mained Terran and then Random for years, and Terran was the only race where you could play with such a narrow scope of your race for so long. It's exasperating to see so many changes made to the game and a significant portion of the player base simply choose not to try new things because it's not what has always worked for them, or dismiss other possible changes as "hero-like" or "gimmicks". They want their units they've always used buffed and everything else is stupid. It's like talking to a wall. As for the MSC, well, guess what: I play Protoss now and I loathe the MSC too because it means Gateway units suck balls, but I sure loathe it a lot less than having to open Robo expand every single PvT while Terrans had their choice of builds to throw at me. And yes, I did think about the repercussions of tank shots slowing down troops in TvT. That's the entire point. Don't run your marines into a tank line, or drop on top of them. It's the positional AOE effect that everyone is clamoring for and I sincerely do not think it would be as big of a rework as you're making it out to be. 2 - You did not say that it would make Ultras overpowered in ZvP, that's what I'm saying your change would do. It's not efficient to warp in Zealots against Ultras now because the splash and accompanying Zerglings take them down too quick but there's not much choice - you have to use Zealot warp-ins as kind of a temporary wall to zone out the Ultras so you can target-fire them down. And your understanding is almost half-there - yes, you may win the fight if you do it correctly, but then a hard Mutalisk switch comes and you and your hefty Immortal count are boned. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11919 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:10 Faust852 wrote: It might looks like terran would be too strong for a while, but it will eventually even out and we might come back to a 1/3 race distribution. I know this has been spewed a few times in the balance whine thread, but surely you know this isn't correlated, right? | ||
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
On July 03 2014 01:25 BronzeKnee wrote: Listen, I like Ret and haven't criticized him, but this is just dumb. It is the logical fallacy of authority. Wrong is wrong and right is right, no matter who says or does it. Just because he plays the game for a living doesn't mean he is right. His arguments needs to stand independent of him. If his arguments suddenly hold less weight when I repeat them, then your logic is flawed. Right, but when somebody with authority says something about which he has deeper knowledge than I do, I never simply dismiss what he is saying without actually considering it deeply. It's okay to disagree with Ret, but it needs to be done properly and not just throwing sarcasm at him without truly considering what he has to say. When a professional in a field says something about it, it's never a good idea to respond with our initial reaction of disagreement without stopping to think if he might actually be right. In situations like these, it should take at least 5-10 minutes of serious thought before one should even consider arguing with a professional. Seeing his post and then immediately saying "hahaha okay Ret you dummy", and moving on is really the wrong way of doing things. | ||
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r691175002
249 Posts
I'm on the fence with muta regen, since I think a change would serve the same purpose as buffing the widow mine splash. Immortal mutalisks are clearly a problem in the late game, but I think attacking it from multiple sides will over-nerf them. If we want conservative changes, I think the stim change alone will be sufficient to balance out win rates/distribution. Buffs to mech and late game units might be healthier for the metagame, but also much harder to test and implement. | ||
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