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What they're doing now is just reverting the nerfs they've previously implemented. Where are the REAL changes?
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On July 02 2014 17:12 Shebuha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 16:53 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:28 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:09 Shebuha wrote:I wish they would leave the game alone for awhile. Like literally just not change anything no matter what we say and just come out with new maps more frequently. For the last few seasons I've hated the fuck out of all of the new maps, but at least they're trying new things and are trying to give rise to a bit of diversity. I hate to use BW as an example, but it's just such a fucking good one... There were periods where one race would dominate the fuck out of one another... like you'd get entire tournaments where there'd be like 2 Protosses, or all of the top Terrans would have like 80-95% win rate vs Z, or Protoss literally couldn't beat Zerg. Sometimes these periods lasted for like a year and a half, just like SC2. As absolutely unlikely and untrue it seems eventually a player like Savior or Bisu or whoever WILL figure it out and bring balance to the force hehehhhhehehe. Sc2 doesn't really have any great examples... Stephano gave Zerg a good boost with the fast roach max and Protosses were definitely bringing PvZ closer at the end of WoL by combining really aggressive WP harass with solid macro and quicker expansions. I'll put this in a spoiler since I'm using a different game as an example. + Show Spoiler +Another good example is SSBM; I'd say it's a bit comparable to BW. The character tier list in that game is actually a pretty good representation of how capable each character is overall, and over the years as people have discovered and improved tech skill and general matchup knowledge characters have bounced up and down the list. People used to think Shiek and Marth were more or less the best, but people figured the game out and now they're a bit further down. Shiek vs. Marth used to be a really shitty matchup, but more and more we see Marth players bringing it closer to even. Then there's fucking Armada. He levelled Peach up SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH. Every tournament he shows new technology and combos. the problem is that Terran doesn't have the ability to innovate since like, it can't even really use like half its units at the top level Uh.. yeah.. maybe you're right... but part of my point was that it always feels like beyond helpless for the disadvantaged race and then someone comes along and does something no one ever thought of, or just did everything in a better way. To do something no one else has ever thought of you need the full arsenal of terran units to be useful Tanks, Thors, Battlecruisers, even reapers and Hellions suffer from just not being useful, or being so incredibly niche they see only very brief use. The reason MMMM is all terran ever does relates a lot more to the fact that almost everything else is useless than it does people not 'thinking up a new way to play' "maybe they should leave it alone so that people can figure it out. maybe someone will figure something out no one has thought of or people will learn to do things better i mean they did it in the prequel and in this other game where there were like no patches" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" "maybe youre right, my point is that maybe youre not right even though it feels like youre right because it feels hopeless and fully explored" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" YEAH I KNOW. Maybe!!!!!! Possibly!!!!!!!! There is a chance!!!!!!! That if blizz leaves us alone for a while that people or someone will figure something out or improve shit as they did in BW and before in SC2 and in other games where there were no balance patches.
Unlikely, as all those Terran units have such massive and glaring issues, next to that, most Terran units have only been nerfed and new ones haven't been added in 4 years, so most experimentation has been tried nowadays.
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4713 Posts
Guys, I think we shouldn't lose sight of the primary objective here.
Yes I would also love to see Ghosts, Tanks, Vikings, Thors and BCs get some love, become more micro-able, more fun to use, more versatile and in general just viable tools in our arsenal. But I feel all those are priority of a rework that is best saved for LotV, its cool that to bring up these suggestions, but I say save them for when they announce LotV. Until then lets think of the most efficient way of buffing terran right now without going overboard.
I think reverting WM at least partially back to its old power level is a good idea given that a major problem now with terran is the lack of really strong viable AOE in the mid game. This lack of efficient aoe means the zerg can either build less banes and work towards a very abusable flock of mutas or just mass banes and overwhelm the ground force, leaving room for the mutas to clean up.
I'd also nerf muta regen by 40-50% because, even back when we had old WM if muta numbers got high enough it was still incredibly oppressive and extremely strong force.
Lastly, if you want tanks to still be viable parts of the terran army then a more quality of life change would be needed. Reduce siege and unsiege time of tanks, reduce gas cost by 25 and increase movement speed by 0.25. This will make it slightly easier to mass them up and it won't hurt as much losing a huge tank count. It will make them able to keep up in a day and age when everything is already more mobile and it will reduce the timing window when tanks can be punished.
I am slightly worried though about buffing tanks siege time, if they siege to fast then the timing window in TvT to punish a bad position becomes too narrow and all of TvT turns into mech vs mech, which I don't want. So maybe keep the 4 second siege time but reduce unsiege time to 1 second, or make it 3 seconds and 1 second, maybe attach it to the WM burrow upgrade even.
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This. A PF buff so that with the range upgrade it can have ~10 range.
After all this is a friggin' artillery cannon on top of a big building :D
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On July 02 2014 17:35 TwiggyWan wrote:
This. A PF buff so that with the range upgrade it can have ~10 range.
After all this is a friggin' artillery cannon on top of a big building :D
Or better bunkers (with upgrade) that doesn't rely on supply for damage output would be nice. Games that extend beyond 4 bases really highlights Terran's inability to adequately expand beyond this number without the risk of losing 1 or more other bases.
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Snipe, tanks, thors and BC's desperately need buffs. Widow mine too, but that was obvious.
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On July 02 2014 17:33 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 17:12 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:53 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:28 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:09 Shebuha wrote:I wish they would leave the game alone for awhile. Like literally just not change anything no matter what we say and just come out with new maps more frequently. For the last few seasons I've hated the fuck out of all of the new maps, but at least they're trying new things and are trying to give rise to a bit of diversity. I hate to use BW as an example, but it's just such a fucking good one... There were periods where one race would dominate the fuck out of one another... like you'd get entire tournaments where there'd be like 2 Protosses, or all of the top Terrans would have like 80-95% win rate vs Z, or Protoss literally couldn't beat Zerg. Sometimes these periods lasted for like a year and a half, just like SC2. As absolutely unlikely and untrue it seems eventually a player like Savior or Bisu or whoever WILL figure it out and bring balance to the force hehehhhhehehe. Sc2 doesn't really have any great examples... Stephano gave Zerg a good boost with the fast roach max and Protosses were definitely bringing PvZ closer at the end of WoL by combining really aggressive WP harass with solid macro and quicker expansions. I'll put this in a spoiler since I'm using a different game as an example. + Show Spoiler +Another good example is SSBM; I'd say it's a bit comparable to BW. The character tier list in that game is actually a pretty good representation of how capable each character is overall, and over the years as people have discovered and improved tech skill and general matchup knowledge characters have bounced up and down the list. People used to think Shiek and Marth were more or less the best, but people figured the game out and now they're a bit further down. Shiek vs. Marth used to be a really shitty matchup, but more and more we see Marth players bringing it closer to even. Then there's fucking Armada. He levelled Peach up SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH. Every tournament he shows new technology and combos. the problem is that Terran doesn't have the ability to innovate since like, it can't even really use like half its units at the top level Uh.. yeah.. maybe you're right... but part of my point was that it always feels like beyond helpless for the disadvantaged race and then someone comes along and does something no one ever thought of, or just did everything in a better way. To do something no one else has ever thought of you need the full arsenal of terran units to be useful Tanks, Thors, Battlecruisers, even reapers and Hellions suffer from just not being useful, or being so incredibly niche they see only very brief use. The reason MMMM is all terran ever does relates a lot more to the fact that almost everything else is useless than it does people not 'thinking up a new way to play' "maybe they should leave it alone so that people can figure it out. maybe someone will figure something out no one has thought of or people will learn to do things better i mean they did it in the prequel and in this other game where there were like no patches" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" "maybe youre right, my point is that maybe youre not right even though it feels like youre right because it feels hopeless and fully explored" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" YEAH I KNOW. Maybe!!!!!! Possibly!!!!!!!! There is a chance!!!!!!! That if blizz leaves us alone for a while that people or someone will figure something out or improve shit as they did in BW and before in SC2 and in other games where there were no balance patches. Unlikely, as all those Terran units have such massive and glaring issues, next to that, most Terran units have only been nerfed and new ones haven't been added in 4 years, so most experimentation has been tried nowadays.
- I express how maybe terran will figure it out if we leave balance alone for a while
- guy says terran sucks
- i reiterate how MAYBE if we leave balance alone for awhile people might figure it out even though it feels hopeless where it is now
- guy says terran sucks because units are useless or too niche
- i point out how the guy just said the same thing twice and i was totally fucking aware of what he said the first time and re-reiterate my point
- different guy (Hint: this one is you) says terran sucks because units have glaring issues and most everything has been tried out already
YEAH I FUCKIN' KNOW THAT. I was completely 100% aware of that when I made the first post. All I'm saying is that maybe (I tried capitalizing it for you guys but I guess that didn't work?) terrans will figure something else out or just improve in the same way players did in other games.
THis is the part where you say the exact same fucking thing you just said because apparently you don't like reading.
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leaving it alone isn't gonna fix the problem though
I'm willing to bet we still see like, 5 terrans max in GSL. MAX. i'm expecting 3-4 again.
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Part of Terran's problem is they are so strategically one-dimensional and predictable compared to the other races. It's like, go bio, bio, bio (or mech?) These changes do nothing but reinforce a well-worn and tired playstyle. I'm in agreement with the common sentiment: yes to terran buffs, no to the proposed buffs.
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On July 02 2014 17:50 Shebuha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 17:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 02 2014 17:12 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:53 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:28 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:09 Shebuha wrote:I wish they would leave the game alone for awhile. Like literally just not change anything no matter what we say and just come out with new maps more frequently. For the last few seasons I've hated the fuck out of all of the new maps, but at least they're trying new things and are trying to give rise to a bit of diversity. I hate to use BW as an example, but it's just such a fucking good one... There were periods where one race would dominate the fuck out of one another... like you'd get entire tournaments where there'd be like 2 Protosses, or all of the top Terrans would have like 80-95% win rate vs Z, or Protoss literally couldn't beat Zerg. Sometimes these periods lasted for like a year and a half, just like SC2. As absolutely unlikely and untrue it seems eventually a player like Savior or Bisu or whoever WILL figure it out and bring balance to the force hehehhhhehehe. Sc2 doesn't really have any great examples... Stephano gave Zerg a good boost with the fast roach max and Protosses were definitely bringing PvZ closer at the end of WoL by combining really aggressive WP harass with solid macro and quicker expansions. I'll put this in a spoiler since I'm using a different game as an example. + Show Spoiler +Another good example is SSBM; I'd say it's a bit comparable to BW. The character tier list in that game is actually a pretty good representation of how capable each character is overall, and over the years as people have discovered and improved tech skill and general matchup knowledge characters have bounced up and down the list. People used to think Shiek and Marth were more or less the best, but people figured the game out and now they're a bit further down. Shiek vs. Marth used to be a really shitty matchup, but more and more we see Marth players bringing it closer to even. Then there's fucking Armada. He levelled Peach up SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH. Every tournament he shows new technology and combos. the problem is that Terran doesn't have the ability to innovate since like, it can't even really use like half its units at the top level Uh.. yeah.. maybe you're right... but part of my point was that it always feels like beyond helpless for the disadvantaged race and then someone comes along and does something no one ever thought of, or just did everything in a better way. To do something no one else has ever thought of you need the full arsenal of terran units to be useful Tanks, Thors, Battlecruisers, even reapers and Hellions suffer from just not being useful, or being so incredibly niche they see only very brief use. The reason MMMM is all terran ever does relates a lot more to the fact that almost everything else is useless than it does people not 'thinking up a new way to play' "maybe they should leave it alone so that people can figure it out. maybe someone will figure something out no one has thought of or people will learn to do things better i mean they did it in the prequel and in this other game where there were like no patches" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" "maybe youre right, my point is that maybe youre not right even though it feels like youre right because it feels hopeless and fully explored" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" YEAH I KNOW. Maybe!!!!!! Possibly!!!!!!!! There is a chance!!!!!!! That if blizz leaves us alone for a while that people or someone will figure something out or improve shit as they did in BW and before in SC2 and in other games where there were no balance patches. Unlikely, as all those Terran units have such massive and glaring issues, next to that, most Terran units have only been nerfed and new ones haven't been added in 4 years, so most experimentation has been tried nowadays. - I express how maybe terran will figure it out if we leave balance alone for a while - guy says terran sucks - i reiterate how MAYBE if we leave balance alone for awhile people might figure it out even though it feels hopeless where it is now - guy says terran sucks because units are useless or too niche - i point out how the guy just said the same thing twice and i was totally fucking aware of what he said the first time and re-reiterate my point - different guy (Hint: this one is you) says terran sucks because units have glaring issues and most everything has been tried out already YEAH I FUCKIN' KNOW THAT. I was completely 100% aware of that when I made the first post. All I'm saying is that maybe (I tried capitalizing it for you guys but I guess that didn't work?) terrans will figure something else out or just improve in the same way players did in other games. THis is the part where you say the exact same fucking thing you just said because apparently you don't like reading.
Waiting wont solve the issue i think. TvP seemed kinda toss favored since the time even beffore hots relese already, and if all GSL terrans werent able to find a solution for TvP for that long i think it's preatty clear they need to change some things.
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On July 02 2014 17:50 Shebuha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 17:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 02 2014 17:12 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:53 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:28 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:09 Shebuha wrote:I wish they would leave the game alone for awhile. Like literally just not change anything no matter what we say and just come out with new maps more frequently. For the last few seasons I've hated the fuck out of all of the new maps, but at least they're trying new things and are trying to give rise to a bit of diversity. I hate to use BW as an example, but it's just such a fucking good one... There were periods where one race would dominate the fuck out of one another... like you'd get entire tournaments where there'd be like 2 Protosses, or all of the top Terrans would have like 80-95% win rate vs Z, or Protoss literally couldn't beat Zerg. Sometimes these periods lasted for like a year and a half, just like SC2. As absolutely unlikely and untrue it seems eventually a player like Savior or Bisu or whoever WILL figure it out and bring balance to the force hehehhhhehehe. Sc2 doesn't really have any great examples... Stephano gave Zerg a good boost with the fast roach max and Protosses were definitely bringing PvZ closer at the end of WoL by combining really aggressive WP harass with solid macro and quicker expansions. I'll put this in a spoiler since I'm using a different game as an example. + Show Spoiler +Another good example is SSBM; I'd say it's a bit comparable to BW. The character tier list in that game is actually a pretty good representation of how capable each character is overall, and over the years as people have discovered and improved tech skill and general matchup knowledge characters have bounced up and down the list. People used to think Shiek and Marth were more or less the best, but people figured the game out and now they're a bit further down. Shiek vs. Marth used to be a really shitty matchup, but more and more we see Marth players bringing it closer to even. Then there's fucking Armada. He levelled Peach up SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH. Every tournament he shows new technology and combos. the problem is that Terran doesn't have the ability to innovate since like, it can't even really use like half its units at the top level Uh.. yeah.. maybe you're right... but part of my point was that it always feels like beyond helpless for the disadvantaged race and then someone comes along and does something no one ever thought of, or just did everything in a better way. To do something no one else has ever thought of you need the full arsenal of terran units to be useful Tanks, Thors, Battlecruisers, even reapers and Hellions suffer from just not being useful, or being so incredibly niche they see only very brief use. The reason MMMM is all terran ever does relates a lot more to the fact that almost everything else is useless than it does people not 'thinking up a new way to play' "maybe they should leave it alone so that people can figure it out. maybe someone will figure something out no one has thought of or people will learn to do things better i mean they did it in the prequel and in this other game where there were like no patches" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" "maybe youre right, my point is that maybe youre not right even though it feels like youre right because it feels hopeless and fully explored" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" YEAH I KNOW. Maybe!!!!!! Possibly!!!!!!!! There is a chance!!!!!!! That if blizz leaves us alone for a while that people or someone will figure something out or improve shit as they did in BW and before in SC2 and in other games where there were no balance patches. Unlikely, as all those Terran units have such massive and glaring issues, next to that, most Terran units have only been nerfed and new ones haven't been added in 4 years, so most experimentation has been tried nowadays. - I express how maybe terran will figure it out if we leave balance alone for a while - guy says terran sucks - i reiterate how MAYBE if we leave balance alone for awhile people might figure it out even though it feels hopeless where it is now - guy says terran sucks because units are useless or too niche - i point out how the guy just said the same thing twice and i was totally fucking aware of what he said the first time and re-reiterate my point - different guy (Hint: this one is you) says terran sucks because units have glaring issues and most everything has been tried out already YEAH I FUCKIN' KNOW THAT. I was completely 100% aware of that when I made the first post. All I'm saying is that maybe (I tried capitalizing it for you guys but I guess that didn't work?) terrans will figure something else out or just improve in the same way players did in other games. THis is the part where you say the exact same fucking thing you just said because apparently you don't like reading.
This assumes Terrans are still new to the current meta and haven't figured out every unit yet.
Given the amount of time that HotS has been out and how much time has passed since any last major change I would say this isn't about Terrans trying to figure new things out. I highly doubt the Top Koreans and other Terrans haven't tried everything by now. The reason 4M/MMM is everywhere is because everything else has been attempted at this point and it just didn't match up to standard play.
Of course you can go Mech in TvP, go for mass Reapers in early game TvZ or go 2port Banshee in TvT.
It doesn't mean that any of those are actually any good and when tournaments are at stake you stick with what you know does work.
If there was some new fancy strategy lying around the corner we would have seen it by now.
I remember when Blue Flame Hellion rushes were suddenly introduced by Empire players and it caused quite an upset in the TvZ metagame. These kinds of things have all been figured out since. It's not like Widow Mines and Medivacs have been out for only a couple of weeks.
Specifically, Reapers, Siege Tanks, Thors, Banshees and Battlecruisers are currently all extremely niche units because they are so easily countered, are expensive and cannot garantuee any good damage in return.
This is the reason you rarely if ever see them in a tournament match.
Not because Terrans haven't tried them out, but because they have and it just didn't work.
Again, if it did, we would have seen it by now and we haven't.
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oh David.. pls, for the love of god... TAKE LESS DRUGS!!!
He should learn that there are more than 2 units in the terran database. And to make the 2 sickest units even stronger? Not enough drop play? WTF is he talking about - Does he want to influence the gameplay as he sees fit? A**HO**
User was temp banned for this post.
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Poland3752 Posts
Siege Tanks should shoot widow mines that will burrow on hit.
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On July 02 2014 17:58 Svizcy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 17:50 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 17:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 02 2014 17:12 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:53 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:28 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:09 Shebuha wrote:I wish they would leave the game alone for awhile. Like literally just not change anything no matter what we say and just come out with new maps more frequently. For the last few seasons I've hated the fuck out of all of the new maps, but at least they're trying new things and are trying to give rise to a bit of diversity. I hate to use BW as an example, but it's just such a fucking good one... There were periods where one race would dominate the fuck out of one another... like you'd get entire tournaments where there'd be like 2 Protosses, or all of the top Terrans would have like 80-95% win rate vs Z, or Protoss literally couldn't beat Zerg. Sometimes these periods lasted for like a year and a half, just like SC2. As absolutely unlikely and untrue it seems eventually a player like Savior or Bisu or whoever WILL figure it out and bring balance to the force hehehhhhehehe. Sc2 doesn't really have any great examples... Stephano gave Zerg a good boost with the fast roach max and Protosses were definitely bringing PvZ closer at the end of WoL by combining really aggressive WP harass with solid macro and quicker expansions. I'll put this in a spoiler since I'm using a different game as an example. + Show Spoiler +Another good example is SSBM; I'd say it's a bit comparable to BW. The character tier list in that game is actually a pretty good representation of how capable each character is overall, and over the years as people have discovered and improved tech skill and general matchup knowledge characters have bounced up and down the list. People used to think Shiek and Marth were more or less the best, but people figured the game out and now they're a bit further down. Shiek vs. Marth used to be a really shitty matchup, but more and more we see Marth players bringing it closer to even. Then there's fucking Armada. He levelled Peach up SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH. Every tournament he shows new technology and combos. the problem is that Terran doesn't have the ability to innovate since like, it can't even really use like half its units at the top level Uh.. yeah.. maybe you're right... but part of my point was that it always feels like beyond helpless for the disadvantaged race and then someone comes along and does something no one ever thought of, or just did everything in a better way. To do something no one else has ever thought of you need the full arsenal of terran units to be useful Tanks, Thors, Battlecruisers, even reapers and Hellions suffer from just not being useful, or being so incredibly niche they see only very brief use. The reason MMMM is all terran ever does relates a lot more to the fact that almost everything else is useless than it does people not 'thinking up a new way to play' "maybe they should leave it alone so that people can figure it out. maybe someone will figure something out no one has thought of or people will learn to do things better i mean they did it in the prequel and in this other game where there were like no patches" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" "maybe youre right, my point is that maybe youre not right even though it feels like youre right because it feels hopeless and fully explored" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" YEAH I KNOW. Maybe!!!!!! Possibly!!!!!!!! There is a chance!!!!!!! That if blizz leaves us alone for a while that people or someone will figure something out or improve shit as they did in BW and before in SC2 and in other games where there were no balance patches. Unlikely, as all those Terran units have such massive and glaring issues, next to that, most Terran units have only been nerfed and new ones haven't been added in 4 years, so most experimentation has been tried nowadays. - I express how maybe terran will figure it out if we leave balance alone for a while - guy says terran sucks - i reiterate how MAYBE if we leave balance alone for awhile people might figure it out even though it feels hopeless where it is now - guy says terran sucks because units are useless or too niche - i point out how the guy just said the same thing twice and i was totally fucking aware of what he said the first time and re-reiterate my point - different guy (Hint: this one is you) says terran sucks because units have glaring issues and most everything has been tried out already YEAH I FUCKIN' KNOW THAT. I was completely 100% aware of that when I made the first post. All I'm saying is that maybe (I tried capitalizing it for you guys but I guess that didn't work?) terrans will figure something else out or just improve in the same way players did in other games. THis is the part where you say the exact same fucking thing you just said because apparently you don't like reading. Waiting wont solve the issue i think. TvP seemed kinda toss favored since the time even beffore hots relese already, and if all GSL terrans werent able to find a solution for TvP for that long i think it's preatty clear they need to change some things.
Yeah, but they've been changing things constantly. How can players find solutions in the current metagame if the metagame is being created by balance patches every few months? Maybe part of the reason they cant figure it out is because theyre constantly being buffed and nerfed --- which means their options are being expanded and then limited. when hellbats were good terrans had more viable openings and midgame compositions, which obviously made life harder for protoss because there are more harassment options to worry about and different compositions from terran to account for. so throughout this hellbat shit protoss learned all this different shit about how to defend better and got better at splitting their probes and doing nifty shit like super fast forge + cannons into really fast tech with 1 gateway and all of a sudden hellbat openings just dont happen anymore because of a patch. So what did terran take away from all that? fucking nothing. all of a sudden they have to relearn TvP except with less options than they had before.
You know whats going to happen if they buff terran? theyre gonna fuck up and buff somethign too hard, or buff the wrong thing, or buff the right thing but not enough and then theyll have to reroll on that patch and itll just be an endless cycle just like its always been.
if blizzard wasnt able to find a solution for TvP for that long i think it's preatty clear they need to... chill out for a sec?
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On July 02 2014 17:57 Evil_Sheep wrote:
Part of Terran's problem is they are so strategically one-dimensional and predictable compared to the other races. It's like, go bio, bio, bio (or mech?) These changes do nothing but reinforce a well-worn and tired playstyle. I'm in agreement with the common sentiment: yes to terran buffs, no to the proposed buffs.
This is very true, but ironically this is due to the T strengths rather than its weaknesses. Keep in mind SCII was designed around Terran bio units, all other races haven been given counters to address the strength of bio.
It is not that Terran lack versatility, its more of the fact that at any point bio remains the undoubtedly strongest option but lives and dies on mechanics as show by the korean terran which every tries to copy.
T does have versatility in openings: marauder hellbat, gas first builds, widow mine drops, fast stim, hellion pushes. these literally work against all races. The main reason why you never see them is to do with the fact that bio is so strong and these pushes all sacrifice the strength of a midgame bio push.
Not sure how to address this in a patch but essentially you need to nerf the bio output dps, and instead make the composition more durable by for example incr. the healing output of a medivac. Then and only then can you adjust the units which can feature in a hybrid composition such as hellbats resulting in more versatile unit comps.
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On July 02 2014 17:59 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 17:50 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 17:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 02 2014 17:12 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:53 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:28 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:09 Shebuha wrote:I wish they would leave the game alone for awhile. Like literally just not change anything no matter what we say and just come out with new maps more frequently. For the last few seasons I've hated the fuck out of all of the new maps, but at least they're trying new things and are trying to give rise to a bit of diversity. I hate to use BW as an example, but it's just such a fucking good one... There were periods where one race would dominate the fuck out of one another... like you'd get entire tournaments where there'd be like 2 Protosses, or all of the top Terrans would have like 80-95% win rate vs Z, or Protoss literally couldn't beat Zerg. Sometimes these periods lasted for like a year and a half, just like SC2. As absolutely unlikely and untrue it seems eventually a player like Savior or Bisu or whoever WILL figure it out and bring balance to the force hehehhhhehehe. Sc2 doesn't really have any great examples... Stephano gave Zerg a good boost with the fast roach max and Protosses were definitely bringing PvZ closer at the end of WoL by combining really aggressive WP harass with solid macro and quicker expansions. I'll put this in a spoiler since I'm using a different game as an example. + Show Spoiler +Another good example is SSBM; I'd say it's a bit comparable to BW. The character tier list in that game is actually a pretty good representation of how capable each character is overall, and over the years as people have discovered and improved tech skill and general matchup knowledge characters have bounced up and down the list. People used to think Shiek and Marth were more or less the best, but people figured the game out and now they're a bit further down. Shiek vs. Marth used to be a really shitty matchup, but more and more we see Marth players bringing it closer to even. Then there's fucking Armada. He levelled Peach up SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH. Every tournament he shows new technology and combos. the problem is that Terran doesn't have the ability to innovate since like, it can't even really use like half its units at the top level Uh.. yeah.. maybe you're right... but part of my point was that it always feels like beyond helpless for the disadvantaged race and then someone comes along and does something no one ever thought of, or just did everything in a better way. To do something no one else has ever thought of you need the full arsenal of terran units to be useful Tanks, Thors, Battlecruisers, even reapers and Hellions suffer from just not being useful, or being so incredibly niche they see only very brief use. The reason MMMM is all terran ever does relates a lot more to the fact that almost everything else is useless than it does people not 'thinking up a new way to play' "maybe they should leave it alone so that people can figure it out. maybe someone will figure something out no one has thought of or people will learn to do things better i mean they did it in the prequel and in this other game where there were like no patches" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" "maybe youre right, my point is that maybe youre not right even though it feels like youre right because it feels hopeless and fully explored" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" YEAH I KNOW. Maybe!!!!!! Possibly!!!!!!!! There is a chance!!!!!!! That if blizz leaves us alone for a while that people or someone will figure something out or improve shit as they did in BW and before in SC2 and in other games where there were no balance patches. Unlikely, as all those Terran units have such massive and glaring issues, next to that, most Terran units have only been nerfed and new ones haven't been added in 4 years, so most experimentation has been tried nowadays. - I express how maybe terran will figure it out if we leave balance alone for a while - guy says terran sucks - i reiterate how MAYBE if we leave balance alone for awhile people might figure it out even though it feels hopeless where it is now - guy says terran sucks because units are useless or too niche - i point out how the guy just said the same thing twice and i was totally fucking aware of what he said the first time and re-reiterate my point - different guy (Hint: this one is you) says terran sucks because units have glaring issues and most everything has been tried out already YEAH I FUCKIN' KNOW THAT. I was completely 100% aware of that when I made the first post. All I'm saying is that maybe (I tried capitalizing it for you guys but I guess that didn't work?) terrans will figure something else out or just improve in the same way players did in other games. THis is the part where you say the exact same fucking thing you just said because apparently you don't like reading. This assumes Terrans are still new to the current meta and haven't figured out every unit yet. Given the amount of time that HotS has been out and how much time has passed since any last major change I would say this isn't about Terrans trying to figure new things out. I highly doubt the Top Koreans and other Terrans haven't tried everything by now. The reason 4M/MMM is everywhere is because everything else has been attempted at this point and it just didn't match up to standard play. Of course you can go Mech in TvP, go for mass Reapers in early game TvZ or go 2port Banshee in TvT. It doesn't mean that any of those are actually any good and when tournaments are at stake you stick with what you know does work. If there was some new fancy strategy lying around the corner we would have seen it by now. I remember when Blue Flame Hellion rushes were suddenly introduced by Empire players and it caused quite an upset in the TvZ metagame. These kinds of things have all been figured out since. It's not like Widow Mines and Medivacs have been out for only a couple of weeks. Specifically, Reapers, Siege Tanks, Thors, Banshees and Battlecruisers are currently all extremely niche units because they are so easily countered, are expensive and cannot garantuee any good damage in return. This is the reason you rarely if ever see them in a tournament match. Not because Terrans haven't tried them out, but because they have and it just didn't work. Again, if it did, we would have seen it by now and we haven't.
Like, you realize that you just said the exact same thing that the other people have already said except longer, right? I may as well copy paste the post you just responded to and then you can write up a new response.
I'm still aware that Terran sucks dick, I'm still aware that those units suck dick, I'm still aware that I'm assuming that Terrans haven't figured everything single possible option out yet.
The basis of my original post was an assumption that MAYBE Terrans haven't figured out every single possible strategy in the entire fucking game even though they think they have (just like in other games) because blizzard patches the game too frequently. You just told me that my assumption is assuming the assumption that my assumption is assuming.
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MECH TvP.....? 
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-Make MECH more viable in TvP. Protoss deathballs? Terran deathballs with something scarier.
-Instead of buffing the overused units, make the lesser used ones more viable. I am really sick of ZvT being nothing but marine medivac marauder mines. And if the terran goes mech you just take the map, afk and go towards your ultimate army and widdle them down or just blow up their base when they move out and starve them out. Terran has the most amount of units in the game, but don't really use any of them.
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On July 02 2014 18:19 Shebuha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 17:59 Thezzy wrote:On July 02 2014 17:50 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 17:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 02 2014 17:12 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:53 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:28 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:09 Shebuha wrote:I wish they would leave the game alone for awhile. Like literally just not change anything no matter what we say and just come out with new maps more frequently. For the last few seasons I've hated the fuck out of all of the new maps, but at least they're trying new things and are trying to give rise to a bit of diversity. I hate to use BW as an example, but it's just such a fucking good one... There were periods where one race would dominate the fuck out of one another... like you'd get entire tournaments where there'd be like 2 Protosses, or all of the top Terrans would have like 80-95% win rate vs Z, or Protoss literally couldn't beat Zerg. Sometimes these periods lasted for like a year and a half, just like SC2. As absolutely unlikely and untrue it seems eventually a player like Savior or Bisu or whoever WILL figure it out and bring balance to the force hehehhhhehehe. Sc2 doesn't really have any great examples... Stephano gave Zerg a good boost with the fast roach max and Protosses were definitely bringing PvZ closer at the end of WoL by combining really aggressive WP harass with solid macro and quicker expansions. I'll put this in a spoiler since I'm using a different game as an example. + Show Spoiler +Another good example is SSBM; I'd say it's a bit comparable to BW. The character tier list in that game is actually a pretty good representation of how capable each character is overall, and over the years as people have discovered and improved tech skill and general matchup knowledge characters have bounced up and down the list. People used to think Shiek and Marth were more or less the best, but people figured the game out and now they're a bit further down. Shiek vs. Marth used to be a really shitty matchup, but more and more we see Marth players bringing it closer to even. Then there's fucking Armada. He levelled Peach up SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH. Every tournament he shows new technology and combos. the problem is that Terran doesn't have the ability to innovate since like, it can't even really use like half its units at the top level Uh.. yeah.. maybe you're right... but part of my point was that it always feels like beyond helpless for the disadvantaged race and then someone comes along and does something no one ever thought of, or just did everything in a better way. To do something no one else has ever thought of you need the full arsenal of terran units to be useful Tanks, Thors, Battlecruisers, even reapers and Hellions suffer from just not being useful, or being so incredibly niche they see only very brief use. The reason MMMM is all terran ever does relates a lot more to the fact that almost everything else is useless than it does people not 'thinking up a new way to play' "maybe they should leave it alone so that people can figure it out. maybe someone will figure something out no one has thought of or people will learn to do things better i mean they did it in the prequel and in this other game where there were like no patches" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" "maybe youre right, my point is that maybe youre not right even though it feels like youre right because it feels hopeless and fully explored" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" YEAH I KNOW. Maybe!!!!!! Possibly!!!!!!!! There is a chance!!!!!!! That if blizz leaves us alone for a while that people or someone will figure something out or improve shit as they did in BW and before in SC2 and in other games where there were no balance patches. Unlikely, as all those Terran units have such massive and glaring issues, next to that, most Terran units have only been nerfed and new ones haven't been added in 4 years, so most experimentation has been tried nowadays. - I express how maybe terran will figure it out if we leave balance alone for a while - guy says terran sucks - i reiterate how MAYBE if we leave balance alone for awhile people might figure it out even though it feels hopeless where it is now - guy says terran sucks because units are useless or too niche - i point out how the guy just said the same thing twice and i was totally fucking aware of what he said the first time and re-reiterate my point - different guy (Hint: this one is you) says terran sucks because units have glaring issues and most everything has been tried out already YEAH I FUCKIN' KNOW THAT. I was completely 100% aware of that when I made the first post. All I'm saying is that maybe (I tried capitalizing it for you guys but I guess that didn't work?) terrans will figure something else out or just improve in the same way players did in other games. THis is the part where you say the exact same fucking thing you just said because apparently you don't like reading. This assumes Terrans are still new to the current meta and haven't figured out every unit yet. Given the amount of time that HotS has been out and how much time has passed since any last major change I would say this isn't about Terrans trying to figure new things out. I highly doubt the Top Koreans and other Terrans haven't tried everything by now. The reason 4M/MMM is everywhere is because everything else has been attempted at this point and it just didn't match up to standard play. Of course you can go Mech in TvP, go for mass Reapers in early game TvZ or go 2port Banshee in TvT. It doesn't mean that any of those are actually any good and when tournaments are at stake you stick with what you know does work. If there was some new fancy strategy lying around the corner we would have seen it by now. I remember when Blue Flame Hellion rushes were suddenly introduced by Empire players and it caused quite an upset in the TvZ metagame. These kinds of things have all been figured out since. It's not like Widow Mines and Medivacs have been out for only a couple of weeks. Specifically, Reapers, Siege Tanks, Thors, Banshees and Battlecruisers are currently all extremely niche units because they are so easily countered, are expensive and cannot garantuee any good damage in return. This is the reason you rarely if ever see them in a tournament match. Not because Terrans haven't tried them out, but because they have and it just didn't work. Again, if it did, we would have seen it by now and we haven't. Like, you realize that you just said the exact same thing that the other people have already said except longer, right? I may as well copy paste the post you just responded to and then you can write up a new response. I'm still aware that Terran sucks dick, I'm still aware that those units suck dick, I'm still aware that I'm assuming that Terrans haven't figured everything single possible option out yet. The basis of my original post was an assumption that MAYBE Terrans haven't figured out every single possible strategy in the entire fucking game even though they think they have (just like in other games) because blizzard patches the game too frequently. You just told me that my assumption is assuming the assumption that my assumption is assuming.
Fair enough but keep in mind that if Terrans have figured just about everything or just about nearly everything and are still not coming up with anything, that introducing a few changes might help out.
Of course we could sit and wait but how much longer would this be? Until LotV comes out?
I don't like these changes because they don't help with evolving new strategies (they just slightly buff the existing ones) but I'd rather see changes being introduced and new strategies evolving from that than waiting around and hoping someone has a stroke of genius.
If there was every indication that everything was completely balanced and that the racial distribution was around 30-35% for all three races, I would agree with you to sit and wait because in a properly balanced situation you don't want to introduce change too quickly. But we are hardly in a properly balanced situation so I'd rather try out some changes and then wait and see.
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On July 02 2014 18:19 Shebuha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 17:59 Thezzy wrote:On July 02 2014 17:50 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 17:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 02 2014 17:12 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:53 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On July 02 2014 16:28 Shaella wrote:On July 02 2014 16:09 Shebuha wrote:I wish they would leave the game alone for awhile. Like literally just not change anything no matter what we say and just come out with new maps more frequently. For the last few seasons I've hated the fuck out of all of the new maps, but at least they're trying new things and are trying to give rise to a bit of diversity. I hate to use BW as an example, but it's just such a fucking good one... There were periods where one race would dominate the fuck out of one another... like you'd get entire tournaments where there'd be like 2 Protosses, or all of the top Terrans would have like 80-95% win rate vs Z, or Protoss literally couldn't beat Zerg. Sometimes these periods lasted for like a year and a half, just like SC2. As absolutely unlikely and untrue it seems eventually a player like Savior or Bisu or whoever WILL figure it out and bring balance to the force hehehhhhehehe. Sc2 doesn't really have any great examples... Stephano gave Zerg a good boost with the fast roach max and Protosses were definitely bringing PvZ closer at the end of WoL by combining really aggressive WP harass with solid macro and quicker expansions. I'll put this in a spoiler since I'm using a different game as an example. + Show Spoiler +Another good example is SSBM; I'd say it's a bit comparable to BW. The character tier list in that game is actually a pretty good representation of how capable each character is overall, and over the years as people have discovered and improved tech skill and general matchup knowledge characters have bounced up and down the list. People used to think Shiek and Marth were more or less the best, but people figured the game out and now they're a bit further down. Shiek vs. Marth used to be a really shitty matchup, but more and more we see Marth players bringing it closer to even. Then there's fucking Armada. He levelled Peach up SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH. Every tournament he shows new technology and combos. the problem is that Terran doesn't have the ability to innovate since like, it can't even really use like half its units at the top level Uh.. yeah.. maybe you're right... but part of my point was that it always feels like beyond helpless for the disadvantaged race and then someone comes along and does something no one ever thought of, or just did everything in a better way. To do something no one else has ever thought of you need the full arsenal of terran units to be useful Tanks, Thors, Battlecruisers, even reapers and Hellions suffer from just not being useful, or being so incredibly niche they see only very brief use. The reason MMMM is all terran ever does relates a lot more to the fact that almost everything else is useless than it does people not 'thinking up a new way to play' "maybe they should leave it alone so that people can figure it out. maybe someone will figure something out no one has thought of or people will learn to do things better i mean they did it in the prequel and in this other game where there were like no patches" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" "maybe youre right, my point is that maybe youre not right even though it feels like youre right because it feels hopeless and fully explored" "thats not possible because terran has a bunch of useless units" YEAH I KNOW. Maybe!!!!!! Possibly!!!!!!!! There is a chance!!!!!!! That if blizz leaves us alone for a while that people or someone will figure something out or improve shit as they did in BW and before in SC2 and in other games where there were no balance patches. Unlikely, as all those Terran units have such massive and glaring issues, next to that, most Terran units have only been nerfed and new ones haven't been added in 4 years, so most experimentation has been tried nowadays. - I express how maybe terran will figure it out if we leave balance alone for a while - guy says terran sucks - i reiterate how MAYBE if we leave balance alone for awhile people might figure it out even though it feels hopeless where it is now - guy says terran sucks because units are useless or too niche - i point out how the guy just said the same thing twice and i was totally fucking aware of what he said the first time and re-reiterate my point - different guy (Hint: this one is you) says terran sucks because units have glaring issues and most everything has been tried out already YEAH I FUCKIN' KNOW THAT. I was completely 100% aware of that when I made the first post. All I'm saying is that maybe (I tried capitalizing it for you guys but I guess that didn't work?) terrans will figure something else out or just improve in the same way players did in other games. THis is the part where you say the exact same fucking thing you just said because apparently you don't like reading. This assumes Terrans are still new to the current meta and haven't figured out every unit yet. Given the amount of time that HotS has been out and how much time has passed since any last major change I would say this isn't about Terrans trying to figure new things out. I highly doubt the Top Koreans and other Terrans haven't tried everything by now. The reason 4M/MMM is everywhere is because everything else has been attempted at this point and it just didn't match up to standard play. Of course you can go Mech in TvP, go for mass Reapers in early game TvZ or go 2port Banshee in TvT. It doesn't mean that any of those are actually any good and when tournaments are at stake you stick with what you know does work. If there was some new fancy strategy lying around the corner we would have seen it by now. I remember when Blue Flame Hellion rushes were suddenly introduced by Empire players and it caused quite an upset in the TvZ metagame. These kinds of things have all been figured out since. It's not like Widow Mines and Medivacs have been out for only a couple of weeks. Specifically, Reapers, Siege Tanks, Thors, Banshees and Battlecruisers are currently all extremely niche units because they are so easily countered, are expensive and cannot garantuee any good damage in return. This is the reason you rarely if ever see them in a tournament match. Not because Terrans haven't tried them out, but because they have and it just didn't work. Again, if it did, we would have seen it by now and we haven't. Like, you realize that you just said the exact same thing that the other people have already said except longer, right? I may as well copy paste the post you just responded to and then you can write up a new response. I'm still aware that Terran sucks dick, I'm still aware that those units suck dick, I'm still aware that I'm assuming that Terrans haven't figured everything single possible option out yet. The basis of my original post was an assumption that MAYBE Terrans haven't figured out every single possible strategy in the entire fucking game even though they think they have (just like in other games) because blizzard patches the game too frequently. You just told me that my assumption is assuming the assumption that my assumption is assuming.
ofcourse the Terrans havent figured out every single fucking strat in the entire game. just like protoss didnt figure out every single fucking strat before they got 'help'. just like zerg didnt figure out every single fucking strat before they got 'help'.
so, there we have it. Terran most likely hasnt figured out every single fucking strat in the game.
what do you want, really? let me take a shot, you want things to remain the same in the offchance that terran finds a brand new fucking strat. whats to say this new and innovative strat wont be dismantled in a week?
the game is evolving but people with far superior skill than either of us are at a loss. they are getting thrashed. they need help.
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EPT
