EPTBut they should probably be able to fly.
Maybe a perma-cloaked warhound riding a banshee?
Update on HotS Balance - December 3 - Page 22
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
But they should probably be able to fly. Maybe a perma-cloaked warhound riding a banshee? | ||
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Samx
Singapore149 Posts
On December 10 2014 11:24 parkufarku wrote: I just want Blizzard to give Terrans perma-invisible marines that has ultralisk armor to see whether these T posters would still viciously deny that their race isn't advantageous lmao They will say that it's more demanding to play the race, you need to micro the marine with stutter-step to make it cost effective, as opposed to A-moving your army. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On December 10 2014 13:40 Samx wrote: They will say that it's more demanding to play the race, you need to micro the marine with stutter-step to make it cost effective, as opposed to A-moving your army. "it's more demanding because not only do you have to stutter step, you also have to watch the invisible observer mark and predict where they are, and stutter-step out of their vision, so it's actually balanced. Only really good T players can abuse it." "Win rate of 75% vs Z and P are just because of maps. Maps. Give it more time." "Look at Aligulac, these T players lost in the Liquid TXO Tournament held in Chicago at the Lincoln Mall, the finalist was a P and a Z!!!!" | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On December 10 2014 13:40 Samx wrote: They will say that it's more demanding to play the race, you need to micro the marine with stutter-step to make it cost effective, as opposed to A-moving your army. Ignoring the slight detail that marines (and marauders I guess) are basically the only units for which stutter-stepping is made easy, since they have no attack animation delay. Fortunately, those terrans don't let such unimportant details stop them. They're more skilled with less effective units, that's all. And on top of this, they keep getting nerf after nerf. That's depressing. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 10 2014 10:10 Maniak_ wrote: Sure, but look at the timing of what followed. Queen patch in May 2012, they let the game settle, nerfed the infestors a bit 4 months later and gave free HSM to terrans (the first of a loooong list of free upgrades, but let's ignore that), then they let the game settle, and nerfed the infestors again another 4 months later. We'll never know if it'd have been enough since HotS came out two months afterwards, with yet more nerfs to infestors and a whole slew of new units and buffs all over the place (the biggest ones for terran, but let's ignore that). Point is, they patched, waited to see what would happen, patched a little, waited again, patched a little, waited again. Precisely what terrans have been asking for since their buffs in july (strangely not before, but let's ignore that). Did Blizzard wait too long or patched too timidly? Maybe. It's always much easier to judge in hindsight. But they did what has been asked of them, what's still being asked of them now, and what they said they're still intending to do. So what is the problem exactly? Problem is that Blizz ruined game with patch and never fixed until expansion On December 10 2014 10:14 [F_]aths wrote: It took time for the terrans to adapt, that is true. That does not mean the game itself was more imbalanced. It could mean that the terrans abused a weakness of the zerg and were not creative enough to adapt quickly. When exactly did Terrans adapt? Hots came and everything changed | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 10 2014 11:20 parkufarku wrote: Yup. Even if the Zerg was able to survive late game and got to broodlords, smart Terrans would have a handful of Vikings and Ravens ready. WoL ZvT wasn't as badly broken as it is now currently. Now, you see Zergs hold on to their lives when Terran comes knocking on their doorstep, and when you see that one widow mine blow up 20 banelings, you know the game has been decided. So anti-climatic. Wait what? TvZ is at 48,55% : October 47,61% : November 45:00%: since 27 of Novermber above 50% in 3 of last 12 months Indeed seems broken as hell. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On December 10 2014 15:27 keglu wrote: Problem is that Blizz ruined game with patch and never fixed until expansion Sure, the game was utterly ruined from May 2012 to March 2013, right. ZvZ everywhere, not a single good game for nearly a year, the game was both unplayable and unwatchable. And Blizzard didn't even *try* to do anything before HotS. Except for the patches in-between, but they don't count since they didn't do enough. They waited 4 months before trying to patch anything. That was far too long. They should have patched more things more often, and not waited so long before doing anything. And so, the obvious conclusion is that they should not even try a minor nerf for TvP now. They should patch less often and wait longer before doing anything. It's only been 4 months, it's far too short. Hell, they should not even try to do anything at all with the game. Either they patch too soon, or too late, or too little, or too much. What an incompetent bunch, always trying to ruin the game for everyone. They should just do whatever people over here are deciding that they should do. Oh wait, even when they do that, they ruin the game. No really, they should just stop everything. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Here are some carefully hand-picked examples of how that period felt to me. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Australian_Cyber_League/2012_Pro_Circuit/Sydney#Championship_Bracket http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/381810-iem-singapore-groups-released ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Ver/patchzerg_fight.jpg) I hope it doesn't feel the same to you right now with Terrans, because otherwise I really feel your pain. | ||
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Samx
Singapore149 Posts
Would the nerf to widow mines be useful to correct the current unbalance? The semis between rain and bomber. Rain made templar openning worked. But it was more a case of bomber never scouting, never dropping and blindly go Viking. But since rain went Templar in some of the games, maybe he was having some success with templar openning on ladder against terran. Or was it a case of rain playing the opponent. Oh. Still on the series, I cannot understand bomber's decision after he pull the boys to attack into tons of cannons with rain's collosus pheonix. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16081 Posts
On December 10 2014 20:19 Samx wrote: Oh. Still on the series, I cannot understand bomber's decision after he pull the boys to attack into tons of cannons with rain's collosus pheonix. play a little bit tvp lategame on ladder and you will understand | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On December 10 2014 20:19 Samx wrote: Anyway back to the proposed patch. Would the nerf to widow mines be useful to correct the current unbalance? The semis between rain and bomber. Rain made templar openning worked. But it was more a case of bomber never scouting, never dropping and blindly go Viking. But since rain went Templar in some of the games, maybe he was having some success with templar openning on ladder against terran. Or was it a case of rain playing the opponent. Oh. Still on the series, I cannot understand bomber's decision after he pull the boys to attack into tons of cannons with rain's collosus pheonix. I think Rain was banking on Bomber not scouting he´s templar play. Bomber is known for not scanning and at a time when templar openings are easily countered terrans can easely go on autopilot. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 10 2014 15:32 keglu wrote: Wait what? TvZ is at 48,55% : October 47,61% : November 45:00%: since 27 of Novermber above 50% in 3 of last 12 months Indeed seems broken as hell. You know, you should just ignore parkufarku. He's just a troll. | ||
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
For the sake of productive discussion, please stop it with the hyperboles. | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
On December 10 2014 20:19 Samx wrote: Anyway back to the proposed patch. Would the nerf to widow mines be useful to correct the current unbalance? The semis between rain and bomber. Rain made templar openning worked. But it was more a case of bomber never scouting, never dropping and blindly go Viking. But since rain went Templar in some of the games, maybe he was having some success with templar openning on ladder against terran. Or was it a case of rain playing the opponent. Oh. Still on the series, I cannot understand bomber's decision after he pull the boys to attack into tons of cannons with rain's collosus pheonix. Probably templer build was due to bomber's stubbornness to stay at MMM with vikings. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On December 10 2014 19:17 ZenithM wrote: Here are some carefully hand-picked examples of how that period felt to me. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Australian_Cyber_League/2012_Pro_Circuit/Sydney#Championship_Bracket http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/381810-iem-singapore-groups-released Not to downplay what you felt, because if ZvZ is for you what TvT is for me, I can feel your pain, but you do realize that your first example of what the "Broodlord/Infestor era" was, in addition to taking place in Australia, the other Zerg homeworld, also took place the month *before* the queen patch?  Not sure what the second one is supposed to show either, since a tournament that starts with 9P/3T/12Z and ends up with one of the terrans winning against a protoss does not really highlight the zerg domination of this time. But if your issue with BL/Infestor is the extreme boringness of the style, and not so much any balance concern, I can easily understand that. It still hasn't much to do with the original subject of the necessity/usefulness of a potential minor nerf to mines in a future patch for PvT, in addition to new maps to (maybe) help ZvT. Not sure why BL/Infestors got brought up in the first place | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Just like it might not be needed now. I'm fine with minor nerfs though, just don't add +2 range to an early defensive unit everyone is going to build... | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On December 11 2014 17:51 ZenithM wrote: Haha my first example wasn't the best, indeed. But in my defense, if anything it shows that there wasn't really a need to help Zerg at this point in time. Just like it might not be needed now. I'm fine with minor nerfs though, just don't add +2 range to an early defensive unit everyone is going to build... As was mentioned before, this particular change was made because of proxy raxes and hellions. With faster overlords to help scouting those builds in time. Hard to survive when all your available units have a (much) lower range than any unit that can attack you. It unlocked more options and is still pretty much necessary now. Unless you see a way for Zerg to defend early heavy pressure (be it 2 rax, warpgate allin, quick hellbat push, ...) without a unit that can at least hit something Maybe LotV will give alternatives, but until then... The fact that this triggered the rise of a boring style, that may or may not have been the best/only choice to reach the late game could hardly have been predicted. After the fact know-it-alls who whine about everything and then fixate on occurrences where something did end up being bad are just that. Whiners. Unimportant. It's easy to criticize in hindsight, but much harder to guess beforehand. And they did try to fix things a few months later, at an even quicker rate than now. With changes that may not have been enough (again, hindsight), but they specifically tried not to rush things. They seem to be trying to do the same thing now, with minor changes after several months of letting the game evolve on its own. I don't see the issue with this. I don't think it will be enough, but that's just me. I still won't fault them for trying to be cautious. I do fault them however for not doing that back in july, with their cumulative protoss nerf, terran buffs *and* terran-favored map pool. Now *that* was a stupid patch. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12131 Posts
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous) | ||
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