We’ve been assessing the state of Heart of the Swarm balance recently, and while our data shows that balance at lower skill levels is quite even, we’ve noted some concerns at the highest levels of play. We’re seeing that Terran looks slightly stronger than the other two races, and Zerg is underperforming slightly in both matchups.
As suggested by pro players and members of the community, we feel the map pool in Season 3 contributed a lot to these racial differences and we’re going to be making changes next season to help with this. Our goal for the upcoming season is to have a good mix of maps that are balanced as well as some that slightly favor specific races. We’re currently working towards finalizing the 2015 Season 1 map pool and we’re hoping that we can update to the new ladder map pool later this month.
Additionally, we’ve been considering potential balance changes to help address these issues. One area we’ve been keeping close tabs on that we believe we can help improve balance is the strength of the Widow Mine in TvP. We believe the direction of our last balance update was correct, but we wonder if the actual numbers were slightly too much. We’re currently thinking of testing the following change on a balance test map:
Widow mine splash damage decreased from 40 +40 shields to 40 +20 shields.
This will change a few key unit relationships such as Zealots requiring three shots to die from Widow Mine splash damage to four shots and Sentries/Templars would go from one shot to two shots.
We’re currently in the off-season, so we have time to fully test out changes to the game, but we first wanted to hear your thoughts before committing to a balance test map.
Thank you.
Poll: Widow Mine Damage Decreased to 40 + 20 Shields
Like (795)
55%
Dislike (353)
25%
DREAMPOOL (290)
20%
1438 total votes
Your vote: Widow Mine Damage Decreased to 40 + 20 Shields
FFS Blizzard when will you learn that changing two variables at the same bad is not a good idea... Start by changing the map pool, then see if the imbalance persists. If it does, try your changes.
Kind of odd that they are struggling so much to find the sweet spot for a specific unit. As a masters zerg player I found them so annoying to deal with in the first season of hots that it ultimately led me to quit playing.
The WM has to be the unit that has been adjusted most often? Or maybe the infestor?
On December 04 2014 03:24 Nebuchad wrote: Also there's something fun in reading "We've noticed that zerg is underperforming, therefore we're offering this TvP change"
There is something else fun in noticing they said that the map pool is what they believe to have contributed the most to the balance, and not having a knee jerk reaction and nerfing/buffing units. Good call by Blizz to take a minimalist approach, can't wait to see if this works out.
On December 04 2014 03:24 Nebuchad wrote: Also there's something fun in reading "We've noticed that zerg is underperforming, therefore we're offering this TvP change"
But they are also changing the mappool.
What I don't understand is the following: "Our goal for the upcoming season is to have a good mix of maps that are balanced as well as some that slightly favor specific races."
Obviously it is virtually impossible to ever achieve perfect balance with the races and the maps, but I hope they aim for perfect balance in each individual map and don't try to design a map to have a particular imbalance. I guess if they balance their map imbalances, then everything is balanced again, but that is also a lot of work.
Ohhhhhh, at last. This was long overdue and I'm happy Protoss will be able to open chargelots templars again. I'm happy to hear they understand a lot of the balance problems are due to maps too. I hope maps like Nimbus or Catallena are never to be seen again.
Would rather have seen how the new maps would affect balance before they start number tuning, but that might be due to my love for watching Protoss units die to Widow mines.
On December 04 2014 03:29 Killscreen wrote:The WM has to be the unit that has been adjusted most often? Or maybe the infestor?
nice to see that there taking the moderate approach and just looking at making maps less T sideded i kinda like the widowmine change aswell, there still good and will still be usefull aggressivley ( widowmine drops etc) but this might be enough that Ht openings arnt 100% dead collossus play is getin stale
Now that I think about it it's technically the right approach: changing the maps, and doing some tests with the widow mines in case the map change isn't enough.
Not sure if that's enough but they're addressing the right issue. Can always scale it up/down from there. Reassuring to know that they're aware of what the issues for PvT are though!
What a few people above said, changing the map pool and altering units at the same time isn't good.
This very point was brought up by qxc in Mondays The Late Game stream. Terran were just about starting to get to terms with Protoss and blink all ins - learning how to deal with it. The map pool changed, blink cooldown was increased and terran widow mines buffed...Anarchy ensued (thats my dramatic addition!).
All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes. - Winston Churchill.
Nice to see they are aware of the issues. I don't think these changes will be enough, though it really depends on what the map pool turns out to be. We'll see.
Can't see what this is supposed to help? It's not like Toss players are losing, because they randomly run HT's and Sentries into Widow Mines. They'll still splash Observers and Probes to death and I don't think this will be enough to make HT openers standard.
On December 04 2014 03:24 Nebuchad wrote: Also there's something fun in reading "We've noticed that zerg is underperforming, therefore we're offering this TvP change"
But they are also changing the mappool.
What I don't understand is the following: "Our goal for the upcoming season is to have a good mix of maps that are balanced as well as some that slightly favor specific races."
Obviously it is virtually impossible to ever achieve perfect balance with the races and the maps, but I hope they aim for perfect balance in each individual map and don't try to design a map to have a particular imbalance. I guess if they balance their map imbalances, then everything is balanced again, but that is also a lot of work.
I disagree, if you only focus on making oerfectly balanced maps they would become rather bland and boring, better to have stuff that can be exploited. King sejong was a very fun map to play on for me (even tho I did poorly on it), because you could do a lot of different things on that map had options as to where to take your expands and was viable for a LOT of strategies. Overgrowth is fairly balanced overall even tho it has lot's of stuff to exploit (dt warpin in terran nat via the third, fast gold expoes form zerg in zvp, etc). TL:DR Cool maps > Balanced maps. Within reason ofcourse
Widow Mines are far too strong in TvP. They almost always kill Probes in the mineral line, but there's a chance they won't kill as many drones or SCVs because Drones and SCVs lack shields. Plus SCVs have 5 more HP which is fairly imbalanced in terms of Widow Mines damaging harvester lines.
On December 04 2014 03:44 stuchiu wrote: So let me get this straight. After the Blink Toss era, Terran whined enough that they got both nerfs and godly maps.
Then Toss whined enough that they have now realized that maps are too godlike for Terran and are now considering nerfing mines.
And all this time, Zerg has been literally upheld by 3 players (soO/Solar/Life) all year and they get nothing.
What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs.
On December 04 2014 03:44 stuchiu wrote: So let me get this straight. After the Blink Toss era, Terran whined enough that they got both nerfs and godly maps.
Then Toss whined enough that they have now realized that maps are too godlike for Terran and are now considering nerfing mines.
And all this time, Zerg has been literally upheld by 3 players (soO/Solar/Life) all year and they get nothing.
What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs.
I've done quite a bit of research on the topic... and my explanation is this: David Kim and his balance team is best with Zerg, and worst with Terran.
Therefore, Terran overall, has had the most months where it was dominant in terms of balance than any other race. And this is simply because the Blizzard balance teams trust their own internal testing more than anything else, and therefore in the LOTV alpha, we saw Terran massively overpowered, just like they were in the WOL and HOTS Beta, because they suck at Terran. So they have to compensate for their own internal testing by making Terran incredibly powerful.
On December 04 2014 03:44 stuchiu wrote: So let me get this straight. After the Blink Toss era, Terran whined enough that they got both nerfs and godly maps.
Then Toss whined enough that they have now realized that maps are too godlike for Terran and are now considering nerfing mines.
And all this time, Zerg has been literally upheld by 3 players (soO/Solar/Life) all year and they get nothing.
What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs.
On December 04 2014 03:44 stuchiu wrote: So let me get this straight. After the Blink Toss era, Terran whined enough that they got both nerfs and godly maps.
Then Toss whined enough that they have now realized that maps are too godlike for Terran and are now considering nerfing mines.
And all this time, Zerg has been literally upheld by 3 players (soO/Solar/Life) all year and they get nothing.
What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs.
You could always pride yourselves in not being as pathetic as the rest of us
On December 04 2014 03:44 stuchiu wrote: So let me get this straight. After the Blink Toss era, Terran whined enough that they got both nerfs and godly maps.
Then Toss whined enough that they have now realized that maps are too godlike for Terran and are now considering nerfing mines.
And all this time, Zerg has been literally upheld by 3 players (soO/Solar/Life) all year and they get nothing.
What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs.
You could always pride yourselves in not being as pathetic as the rest of us
Its true that since most of our race sucks, the few godlike players (soO/Life/Solar) are utterly beyond reproach whenever they make a good run.
On December 04 2014 03:45 geokilla wrote: Widow Mines are far too strong in TvP. They almost always kill Probes in the mineral line, but there's a chance they won't kill as many drones or SCVs because Drones and SCVs lack shields. Plus SCVs have 5 more HP which is fairly imbalanced in terms of Widow Mines damaging harvester lines.
A unit's being less effective in a mirror matchup than it is vs the other two races can't be said to be an instance of imbalance... worker lines aside though, the WM does seem a bit too powerful vs protoss.
On December 04 2014 03:42 ejozl wrote: Can't see what this is supposed to help? It's not like Toss players are losing, because they randomly run HT's and Sentries into Widow Mines. They'll still splash Observers and Probes to death and I don't think this will be enough to make HT openers standard.
But they were losing because they'd lose all of their zealots to just a few widow mines, Chargelot/HT isn't so good when the backbone of the composition is nullified by just a few very cheap and easy to make units.
On December 04 2014 03:45 geokilla wrote: They almost always kill Probes in the mineral line, but there's a chance they won't kill as many drones or SCVs because Drones and SCVs lack shields. Plus SCVs have 5 more HP which is fairly imbalanced in terms of Widow Mines damaging harvester lines.
?? Mines have the same effect on Drones and Probes, the bonus damage to Shields changes nothing to the death of Probes since they're destroyed by the primary 40 damage anyway. You're confusing this with the Mine 2.1.
On December 04 2014 03:42 ejozl wrote: Can't see what this is supposed to help? It's not like Toss players are losing, because they randomly run HT's and Sentries into Widow Mines. They'll still splash Observers and Probes to death and I don't think this will be enough to make HT openers standard.
But they were losing because they'd lose all of their zealots to just a few widow mines, Chargelot/HT isn't so good when the backbone of the composition is nullified by just a few very cheap and easy to make units.
Yeah I take it back, it will ofc help, but it's a very precise change chosen to not have a huge impact. However now that I think about it, it will help promote the Immortal allin, since u don't lose all the Sentries to one Mine shot and the fear of the Immortal allin alone from Terrans will help Protoss in the long run.
Sounds good, maybe we will a few templar openings again? Zerg is fine anyway I think, it's just about maps really and as long as the best Zerg can still win tournaments I won't complain.
On December 04 2014 03:47 BronzeKnee wrote: What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs.
I've done quite a bit of research on the topic... and my explanation is this: David Kim and his balance team is best with Zerg, and worst with Terran.
Therefore, Terran overall, has had the most months where it was dominant in terms of balance than any other race. And this is simply because the Blizzard balance teams trust their own internal testing more than anything else, and therefore in the LOTV alpha, we saw Terran massively overpowered, just like they were in the WOL and HOTS Beta, because they suck at Terran. So they have to compensate for their own internal testing by making Terran incredibly powerful. [/QUOTE]
Yeah totally, David Kim is grandmaster in all three races so he would clearly 'suck at terran'.
I can't believe I just jumped to the defence of Mr Kim!!
Adding an edit here, seriously how can you say that alpha or beta software is a representation of ANYTHING? It's alpha and beta for a reason.
On December 04 2014 03:38 DarkLordOlli wrote: Not sure if that's enough but they're addressing the right issue. Can always scale it up/down from there. Reassuring to know that they're aware of what the issues for PvT are though!
It's not. This small change will not affect PvT very much. It won't even touch TvZ. Try harder next time Blizz
On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote: Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get.
Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed.
Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything.
So dumb. Please link here one VOD where widow mines are killing "swarms" of zealots and nullifying the backbone of protoss army. That's almost always stalkers and collo/HT these days, maybe a few zealots mixed in to tank, but not more. Terrans have a tough enough time killing zealots as it is today, nerfing the mine will mean, back to zealot HT archon weeeeee so fun to watch !!!!!! Please address the real issues (such as ZvT indeed) and stop bugging with PvT.....if you fix the maps then PvT is fine imho...........
On December 04 2014 03:42 ejozl wrote: Can't see what this is supposed to help? It's not like Toss players are losing, because they randomly run HT's and Sentries into Widow Mines. They'll still splash Observers and Probes to death and I don't think this will be enough to make HT openers standard.
But they were losing because they'd lose all of their zealots to just a few widow mines, Chargelot/HT isn't so good when the backbone of the composition is nullified by just a few very cheap and easy to make units.
I love how protoss are asking for more openings when they already have a ton. Scouting a protoss in TvP is already a mid-time job, but yeah, lets make it more difficult/coinflippy. If you want to make zealot/templars you can...Just make a bunch of coloss before. Thats how protoss works after all.. I would like to make tanks vs toss but i can't. Early game, mid game, late game...It doesnt matter, I just cant and that's it....
On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote: Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get.
Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed.
Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything.
Tanks are useless out of TvT dude.
Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid.
Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT....
That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game.
God damn. At last, at last they start think with their head, not ass. Maybe that allow protoss, to play again with high templars at 10 minute marks in PvT. 27% and 29% on last 2 tournaments, enough to start thinking.
On December 04 2014 04:11 LIGHTWEIGHT wrote: God damn. At last, at last they start think with their head, not ass. Maybe that allow protoss, to play again with high templars at 10 minute marks in PvT. 27% and 29% on last 2 tournaments, enough to start thinking.
OMFG IMBALANCED WINRATES IN 2 TOURNAMENTS NERFNERF
Seriously, it's probably harder to find a balanced tournament (winrates between 40-60%) than an unbalanced one, because the sheer number of games the winner will play.
On December 04 2014 03:40 ProBell wrote: I have a feeling Avilo is not going to be happy when he hears this
He never really uses mines anyway cause he thinks they suck vs P. So he will be fine...sadly.
Im ok with it if this comes through. 40+ 20 vs shields is still a lot. If only they would consider giving the Siege Tank the more firepower it deserves. They could even bring back siege upgrade to balance it out, revert the almost useless weapon speed buff or make factories cost 200/100 like in BW. Its a freakin artillery unit. They dont need mobility like shown in the LotV preview with medivacs. I miss the times where Terran was devastating on ground . Thor needs a change too, anti air is so immobile on ground (talking about mech here dont come with marines).
All in all pretty underwhelming, but since they want to wait till next season theres still hope.
Who has ideas for what zerg buffs could be made which wouldn't be too much? I think the zerg drop upgrade is long overdue for having its time and price decreased ... cut 33% of the time and drop it to 150/150.. what do you think? :D It would bring back brood war flavor in a big way, too.
On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote: Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get.
Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed.
Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything.
Tanks are useless out of TvT dude.
Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid.
Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT....
That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game.
Tanks are used against zerg hen playing mech and they work really well.
On December 04 2014 04:15 Lumi wrote: Where's that zerg buff mmm what a tasty prospect.
Who has ideas for what zerg buffs could be made which wouldn't be too much? I think the zerg drop upgrade is long overdue for having its time and price decreased ... cut 33% of the time and drop it to 150/150.. what do you think? :D It would bring back brood war flavor in a big way, too.
Seeing Z is only slightly underperforming, it's better to address maps than units imo
Gives me hope after the disappointing stats of the LotV units that blizzard might still get their stuff right at the end.
On December 04 2014 04:20 Promised_pain wrote: " We’re seeing that Terran looks slightly stronger than the other two races, and Zerg is underperforming slightly in both matchups. "
TvP Patch. Ok, makes sense.
*something* mappool. Read the whole post...
Zerg is slightly underperforming because defensive maps like Nimbus and Deadwing share the same strengths for Protoss and Terran of being very hard to attack. And offensive maps like Foxtrot work with chokes and similar setups which are again good for T/P against Z.
On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote: Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get.
Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed.
Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything.
Tanks are useless out of TvT dude.
Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid.
Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT....
That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game.
Tanks are used against zerg hen playing mech and they work really well.
...
Carriers are used sometimes as well...
You can -make- every unit work if you dedicate a strategy to it you'll be able to perform decently. But Siege Tanks/Battle Cruisers/Banshees/Carriers are never a unit you'll -WANT- to make because they're good units. You don't want them in your army because there's better stuff around.
On December 04 2014 04:15 Lumi wrote: Where's that zerg buff mmm what a tasty prospect.
Who has ideas for what zerg buffs could be made which wouldn't be too much? I think the zerg drop upgrade is long overdue for having its time and price decreased ... cut 33% of the time and drop it to 150/150.. what do you think? :D It would bring back brood war flavor in a big way, too.
Seeing Z is only slightly underperforming, it's better to address maps than units imo
On December 04 2014 03:45 geokilla wrote: They almost always kill Probes in the mineral line, but there's a chance they won't kill as many drones or SCVs because Drones and SCVs lack shields. Plus SCVs have 5 more HP which is fairly imbalanced in terms of Widow Mines damaging harvester lines.
?? Mines have the same effect on Drones and Probes, the bonus damage to Shields changes nothing to the death of Probes since they're destroyed by the primary 40 damage anyway. You're confusing this with the Mine 2.1.
But Widow Mine splash damage does splash damage to shield as well doesn't it? So if a harvester that normally receives 20 damage due to its distance from the mine, then it's going to be receiving additional damage as well due to it having shields which Drones and SCVs lack.
On December 04 2014 03:44 stuchiu wrote: So let me get this straight. After the Blink Toss era, Terran whined enough that they got both nerfs and godly maps.
Then Toss whined enough that they have now realized that maps are too godlike for Terran and are now considering nerfing mines.
And all this time, Zerg has been literally upheld by 3 players (soO/Solar/Life) all year and they get nothing.
What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs.
Jinro zerg visionary, shows zerg the true path to victory.
On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote: Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get.
Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed.
Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything.
Tanks are useless out of TvT dude.
Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid.
Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT....
That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game.
Tanks are used against zerg hen playing mech and they work really well.
...
Carriers are used sometimes as well...
You can -make- every unit work if you dedicate a strategy to it you'll be able to perform decently. But Siege Tanks/Battle Cruisers/Banshees/Carriers are never a unit you'll -WANT- to make because they're good units. You don't want them in your army because there's better stuff around.
Banshees are great early game units against Z and what is better than tank when playing mech??? Battle cruisers are good in sped late game when you transition into air army against zerg.
On December 04 2014 03:45 geokilla wrote: They almost always kill Probes in the mineral line, but there's a chance they won't kill as many drones or SCVs because Drones and SCVs lack shields. Plus SCVs have 5 more HP which is fairly imbalanced in terms of Widow Mines damaging harvester lines.
?? Mines have the same effect on Drones and Probes, the bonus damage to Shields changes nothing to the death of Probes since they're destroyed by the primary 40 damage anyway. You're confusing this with the Mine 2.1.
But Widow Mine splash damage does splash damage to shield as well doesn't it? So if a harvester that normally receives 20 damage due to its distance from the mine, then it's going to be receiving additional damage as well due to it having shields which Drones and SCVs lack.
There's no more 40 | 20 | 10 damage (= Mine 2.1), since the last patch it's again 40 in the 3 former radius.
On December 04 2014 03:45 geokilla wrote: They almost always kill Probes in the mineral line, but there's a chance they won't kill as many drones or SCVs because Drones and SCVs lack shields. Plus SCVs have 5 more HP which is fairly imbalanced in terms of Widow Mines damaging harvester lines.
?? Mines have the same effect on Drones and Probes, the bonus damage to Shields changes nothing to the death of Probes since they're destroyed by the primary 40 damage anyway. You're confusing this with the Mine 2.1.
But Widow Mine splash damage does splash damage to shield as well doesn't it? So if a harvester that normally receives 20 damage due to its distance from the mine, then it's going to be receiving additional damage as well due to it having shields which Drones and SCVs lack.
I think you missed the last patch :D
Splash radius is now 1.75. There are no longer 50% or 25% damage zones. Splash damage is now 40 (+40 Shields) for the full 1.75 splash radius.
I would've preferred Templar and Sentries to be buffed from 40/40 shields and HP to 45/40 shields and HP. Either that, or give the shield portion of the splash damage a tapered component, like it used to have.
So - whether it's true that T is slightly stronger at the highest level of play (which I personally disagree) I love how during the time Z was clearly overpowered and every tournament was ZvZ we had no updates at all about the balance and eventually after almost a 8 months period of Z reign, HOTS came out to change things up. During the P dominance that just recently ended - yet again, no news for months about balance.
Now few T players start winning again finally, and immediately Blizzard is changing maps so that "they're slightly more favored for some races" and also nerfing the widow mine. Why not do the two things at separate stages ? Why not first update the map pool, see how it goes and THEN change the widow mine maybe ? With that said, the map pool was already insanely good for blink-stalker all in let's hope it's not gonna be the case anymore.
EDIT: Also what about Zerg players? They're the ones that actually need some sort of slight buff and they're getting nothing lmao -.- Blizzard
Widow mine splash damage decreased from 40 +40 shields to 40 +20 shields.
Someone please tell me how the second statement addresses the first one? Lol...
You skipped this part:
As suggested by pro players and members of the community, we feel the map pool in Season 3 contributed a lot to these racial differences and we’re going to be making changes next season to help with this
I really dislike this approach to maps. If we get say 2 maps favored for terran and 2 for zerg, then those are the maps we will see vetoed every single Bo7. I rather see balanced maps with vetoes based on the players style.
On December 04 2014 04:49 meshfusion wrote: So - whether it's true that T is slightly stronger at the highest level of play (which I personally disagree) I love how during the time Z was clearly overpowered and every tournament was ZvZ we had no updates at all about the balance and eventually after almost a 8 months period of Z reign, HOTS came out to change things up. During the P dominance that just recently ended - yet again, no news for months about balance.
Now few T players start winning again finally, and immediately Blizzard is changing maps so that "they're slightly more favored for some races" and also nerfing the widow mine. Why not do the two things at separate stages ? Why not first update the map pool, see how it goes and THEN change the widow mine maybe ? With that said, the map pool was already insanely good for blink-stalker all in let's hope it's not gonna be the case anymore.
EDIT: Also what about Zerg players? They're the ones that actually need some sort of slight buff and they're getting nothing lmao -.- Blizzard
You're really blatantly a whiney terran player. In your opinion, blizzard should let terran be OP for another year just because zerg was OP for a long time in WoL. And by the way- Protoss dominance didn't end because terran players found new, innovative ways to play PvT (which hasn't happened since WoL), but indeed because of balance patches (widow mine? Already forgot about that?) and map pool changes.
On December 04 2014 04:49 meshfusion wrote: So - whether it's true that T is slightly stronger at the highest level of play (which I personally disagree) I love how during the time Z was clearly overpowered and every tournament was ZvZ we had no updates at all about the balance and eventually after almost a 8 months period of Z reign, HOTS came out to change things up. During the P dominance that just recently ended - yet again, no news for months about balance.
Now few T players start winning again finally, and immediately Blizzard is changing maps so that "they're slightly more favored for some races" and also nerfing the widow mine. Why not do the two things at separate stages ? Why not first update the map pool, see how it goes and THEN change the widow mine maybe ? With that said, the map pool was already insanely good for blink-stalker all in let's hope it's not gonna be the case anymore.
EDIT: Also what about Zerg players? They're the ones that actually need some sort of slight buff and they're getting nothing lmao -.- Blizzard
What a bullshit comment. like 3months into Protoss dominance:
Mothership Core Time Warp cost increased from 75 to 100 Ghost Ghosts start with the energy upgrade built in
one month later: Balance Update 2[edit] Mothership Core Mothership Core vision decreased from 14 to 9
Widow Mine Widow Mine splash damage increased from 40 to 40 +40 shields
Up to 1.25 radius, splash damage will increase from 40 to 40 +40 vs. shields. From 1.25 to 1.5 radius, splash damage will increase from 20 to 20 +20 vs. shields. From 1.5 to 1.75 radius, splash damage will increase from 10 to 10 +10 vs. shields.
Hydralisk Hydralisk attack delay decreased from 0.83 to 0.75
Another two months later
Removed Transformation Servos upgrade Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory
Brood Lord gains the Frenzied ability Frenzied is changed to also be immune to movement altering abilities
Another two months later
Widow Mine
Splash radius is now 1.75. There are no longer 50% or 25% damage zones. Splash damage is now 40 (+40 Shields) for the full 1.75 splash radius.
Thor
Changed to prioritize their AA weapon over the AG weapon Mothership Core
Time Warp duration decreased from 30 to 10 seconds
Meanwhile it has been 5months since the latest balance update and Terran starting to win a lot. Regarding BL/Infestor, they did release a patch around december that nerfed fungal and ITs. So it wasn't totally unnerfed for 8months. In particular, zergs didn't even start to dominate right away, MC vs Seed GSL finals for example. And even then, blizzard openly admited that they made mistakes leaving the game too long on its own, no need to bash them.
i'm a terran but i like this change. Although i don't think terran is favored in tvp at all, templar openings are just far more fun to play and to play against than boring collossus turtle styles so i hope they will be more viable again. If it makes protoss too favored in pvt terran might need something to compensate but just for the sake of entertaining games i hope this change goes through.
On December 04 2014 04:15 Lumi wrote: Where's that zerg buff mmm what a tasty prospect.
Who has ideas for what zerg buffs could be made which wouldn't be too much? I think the zerg drop upgrade is long overdue for having its time and price decreased ... cut 33% of the time and drop it to 150/150.. what do you think? :D It would bring back brood war flavor in a big way, too.
I like this idea a lot. Z drop play is always entertaining to watch (maybe cuz it happens so rarely? If so then they might lose their novelty value with the buff), and underused. 50/50 decrease seems reasonable enough. Blizz prob just hasn't even thought about Z drop upgrades though.
But then again, we saw the roach burrow movement speed upgrade have no effect on matchups other than ZvZ...
Did anyone mention yet that widow mines won't oneshot interceptors with splash damage anymore ? (they also have 80 hp). Pretty important imo, as widow mines are often used as a cheap counter to carriers when playing mech.
although i like this change i think DK is a little fast with his conclusion that terran is overperforming. zerg just won blizzcon, we might have a pvp final at hot6ix cup and solar has won two tournaments as well. Right after the widow mine buff terran was clearly overperforming for a period but now it seems that the other races have adapted. Based on the last few tournaments i don't see any imbalance at all.
On December 04 2014 05:09 Charoisaur wrote: although i like this change i think DK is a little fast with his conclusion that terran is overperforming. zerg just won blizzcon, we might have a pvp final at hot6ix cup and solar has won two tournaments as well. Right after the widow mine buff terran was clearly overperforming for a period but now it seems that the other races have adapted. Based on the last few tournaments i don't see any imbalance at all.
This to me doesn't even seen that much of a nerf. It's more aimed at allowing protoss to have more options, which makes PvT more entertaining. It's not fun to watch /play a matchup where you already know what's going to happen. Plus, templar openings often make for much more intense games, with constant engagements and trading.
I mean, it's still a slight buff, because the terran player will be required to scout more carefully. But it isn't anything drastic.
On December 04 2014 05:09 Charoisaur wrote: although i like this change i think DK is a little fast with his conclusion that terran is overperforming. zerg just won blizzcon, we might have a pvp final at hot6ix cup and solar has won two tournaments as well. Right after the widow mine buff terran was clearly overperforming for a period but now it seems that the other races have adapted. Based on the last few tournaments i don't see any imbalance at all.
No protoss won a single BoX against a Korean Terran at Dreamhack. I realize the Terran lineup was better overall but in a balanced game there would probably be at least one upset, no?
Also I'm curious why DK says Zerg is under-performing when Zerg have won more and bigger tournaments than Protoss. No Protoss made it to the finals of a WCS tournament in Season 3. (including Blizzcon)
On December 04 2014 05:05 KingAlphard wrote: Did anyone mention yet that widow mines won't oneshot interceptors with splash damage anymore ? (they also have 80 hp). Pretty important imo, as widow mines are often used as a cheap counter to carriers when playing mech.
Carriers? Mech vs Protoss? I thought we were talking about SC2 here
On December 04 2014 05:09 Charoisaur wrote: although i like this change i think DK is a little fast with his conclusion that terran is overperforming. zerg just won blizzcon, we might have a pvp final at hot6ix cup and solar has won two tournaments as well. Right after the widow mine buff terran was clearly overperforming for a period but now it seems that the other races have adapted. Based on the last few tournaments i don't see any imbalance at all.
No protoss won a single BoX against a Korean Terran at Dreamhack. I realize the Terran lineup was better overall but in a balanced game there would probably be at least one upset, no?
Also I'm curious why DK says Zerg is under-performing when Zerg have won more and bigger tournaments than Protoss. No Protoss made it to the finals of a WCS tournament in Season 3. (including Blizzcon)
At the highest level Zerg had a quite a few lows against Protoss in the periode since the latest patch, Code A (20%), Hot6 Cup (16%), Dreamhack (41%), Blizzcon (25%). Also I think the other two challenger leagues in EU and AM were both like 20-25%. Though I don't think those are the most important stats to look like (very low amounts like only 7games in the Hot6 Cup), I think that's what blizzard bases their arguments upon. Personally I fully agree that Zerg is fine, but the mappool being a little harsh on them in both matchups (and much more signigicanlty for Protoss against Terran).
On December 04 2014 05:05 KingAlphard wrote: Did anyone mention yet that widow mines won't oneshot interceptors with splash damage anymore ? (they also have 80 hp). Pretty important imo, as widow mines are often used as a cheap counter to carriers when playing mech.
Yeah I bet the balance crew looked at the overwhelming number of Protoss carrier games and thought this would do the trick... that this would be the carrier buff needed to make the ol' PvT carrier build completely balanced
On December 04 2014 05:05 KingAlphard wrote: Did anyone mention yet that widow mines won't oneshot interceptors with splash damage anymore ? (they also have 80 hp). Pretty important imo, as widow mines are often used as a cheap counter to carriers when playing mech.
Carriers? Mech vs Protoss? I thought we were talking about SC2 here
If you're a protoss player on the ladder you encounter mech pretty often. And when I play immortal/archon/ht vs mech everything dies against tanks and banshees so I prefer carriers.
On December 04 2014 05:05 KingAlphard wrote: Did anyone mention yet that widow mines won't oneshot interceptors with splash damage anymore ? (they also have 80 hp). Pretty important imo, as widow mines are often used as a cheap counter to carriers when playing mech.
Yeah I bet the balance crew looked at the overwhelming number of Protoss carrier games and thought this would do the trick... that this would be the carrier buff needed to make the ol' PvT carrier build completely balanced
No, I assume that they didn't take this into account when they thought about this possible patch. Still , it's a nice addition. There's no carrier build involved in what I'm talking about - just reactive carriers upon scouting mech.
On December 04 2014 05:05 KingAlphard wrote: Did anyone mention yet that widow mines won't oneshot interceptors with splash damage anymore ? (they also have 80 hp). Pretty important imo, as widow mines are often used as a cheap counter to carriers when playing mech.
Yeah I bet the balance crew looked at the overwhelming number of Protoss carrier games and thought this would do the trick... that this would be the carrier buff needed to make the ol' PvT carrier build completely balanced
No, I assume that they didn't take this into account when they thought about this possible patch. Still , it's a nice addition. There's no carrier build involved in what I'm talking about - just reactive carriers upon scouting mech.
a nice addition??? that a rarely seen playstyle gets nerfed even more?
On December 04 2014 05:05 KingAlphard wrote: Did anyone mention yet that widow mines won't oneshot interceptors with splash damage anymore ? (they also have 80 hp). Pretty important imo, as widow mines are often used as a cheap counter to carriers when playing mech.
Yeah I bet the balance crew looked at the overwhelming number of Protoss carrier games and thought this would do the trick... that this would be the carrier buff needed to make the ol' PvT carrier build completely balanced
No, I assume that they didn't take this into account when they thought about this possible patch. Still , it's a nice addition. There's no carrier build involved in what I'm talking about - just reactive carriers upon scouting mech.
Mines vs Carriers are very risky to say the least; If they latch into your own army you're doomed...
On December 04 2014 05:05 KingAlphard wrote: Did anyone mention yet that widow mines won't oneshot interceptors with splash damage anymore ? (they also have 80 hp). Pretty important imo, as widow mines are often used as a cheap counter to carriers when playing mech.
Yeah I bet the balance crew looked at the overwhelming number of Protoss carrier games and thought this would do the trick... that this would be the carrier buff needed to make the ol' PvT carrier build completely balanced
No, I assume that they didn't take this into account when they thought about this possible patch. Still , it's a nice addition. There's no carrier build involved in what I'm talking about - just reactive carriers upon scouting mech.
a nice addition??? that a rarely seen playstyle gets nerfed even more?
Do you mean carriers ? Because carriers in PvT are seen more rarely than mech. Mech is already balanced imo, the only problem is lazy terran players being afraid to try it out. Probably they could do a minor buff but mech won't become popular unless it becomes way stronger than bio, just because it's been the standard for the past 4 years.
The current +40 shield damage is quite brutal. It was reasonable when the WM splash was nerfed but it has since been restored. About time to have this one change.
Slight retouching of the Mine splash to shields plus map adjustments is good, I think. Realistically, you can probably balance TvZ with maps. Both sides have multiple openers and compositions possible, with several flavours of cheese/allin. Just need to ensure that maps aren't too choked so that all Mine shots are god-mode while simultaneously not so open that you can build only Zerglings and wipe the Terran from existence whenever they move out.
On December 04 2014 05:05 KingAlphard wrote: Did anyone mention yet that widow mines won't oneshot interceptors with splash damage anymore ? (they also have 80 hp). Pretty important imo, as widow mines are often used as a cheap counter to carriers when playing mech.
Yeah I bet the balance crew looked at the overwhelming number of Protoss carrier games and thought this would do the trick... that this would be the carrier buff needed to make the ol' PvT carrier build completely balanced
No, I assume that they didn't take this into account when they thought about this possible patch. Still , it's a nice addition. There's no carrier build involved in what I'm talking about - just reactive carriers upon scouting mech.
Mines vs Carriers are very risky to say the least; If they latch into your own army you're doomed...
That shouldn't happen because you will run the widow mines below the carriers and burrow them (assuming you have the upgrade to burrow quickier), and ranged units (thors, vikings) will fire from far away.
Mostly widow mines become trash when the protoss player adds storms, so they only really work as a timing.
So they decided to nerf Protoss after 1 year of almost all tournaments finals were PvPs. Now they say Terran it's overperforming when they win some tournaments. LOL! If you want to nerf something than nerf all speed buffs for oracles and medivacs. The game is impossible to balance because it's full of gimmicky units. Any little change is huge. BTW: If you introduce some blink friendly maps then Terrans will get crushed again by low skilled protosses. Game is definitely imbalanced. Terrans can actually reach finals these days...
On December 04 2014 05:09 Charoisaur wrote: although i like this change i think DK is a little fast with his conclusion that terran is overperforming. zerg just won blizzcon, we might have a pvp final at hot6ix cup and solar has won two tournaments as well. Right after the widow mine buff terran was clearly overperforming for a period but now it seems that the other races have adapted. Based on the last few tournaments i don't see any imbalance at all.
Yes, Life won Blizzcon, but he was the only one that made it to the RO8, and Life was also the last Zerg out of some 8 players at Dreamhack as well. If you just look at the earlier stages in tournaments, Zergs are getting eliminated left and right. Five out of the final 8 players at Dreamhachk were Terran, and it was similar for Blizzcon. You can't just look at Blizzcon and say that since one Zerg did well, that doesn't mean Zerg is at a good state at the moment. The general trend is that of a slightly weak Zerg.
On December 04 2014 05:31 kinsky wrote: oh no! the 4 only good terrans that exist, started to win tournaments again. lets nerf terran again...
edit: sarcasm bot.
So which one of these 7 Terran Tournament winners do you think isn't good? Flash, Forgg, Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, MMA, Polt
is this a trick question
Na, I'm just courious since he says that there are only 4good terrans that won tournaments, but I counted 7 different tournament winners. Hence, 3 of them have to be bad players by his statement.
On December 04 2014 05:09 Charoisaur wrote: although i like this change i think DK is a little fast with his conclusion that terran is overperforming. zerg just won blizzcon, we might have a pvp final at hot6ix cup and solar has won two tournaments as well. Right after the widow mine buff terran was clearly overperforming for a period but now it seems that the other races have adapted. Based on the last few tournaments i don't see any imbalance at all.
Yes, Life won Blizzcon, but he was the only one that made it to the RO8, and Life was also the last Zerg out of some 8 players at Dreamhack as well. If you just look at the earlier stages in tournaments, Zergs are getting eliminated left and right. Five out of the final 8 players at Dreamhachk were Terran, and it was similar for Blizzcon. You can't just look at Blizzcon and say that since one Zerg did well, that doesn't mean Zerg is at a good state at the moment. The general trend is that of a slightly weak Zerg.
Actually is the Protoss who eliminates Zergs these days in tournaments. ZvT is quite a balanced match-up.
On December 04 2014 05:31 kinsky wrote: oh no! the 4 only good terrans that exist, started to win tournaments again. lets nerf terran again...
edit: sarcasm bot.
So which one of these 7 Terran Tournament winners do you think isn't good? Flash, Forgg, Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, MMA, Polt
And since terran is nerfed again, when was the last time they were nerfed exactly?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but ignoring the reverted WM nerf, it looks like the last nerf was moving the hellbat bonus damage vs light to the preigniter upgrade. Other than that, nothing since snipe and MULEs on gold, back in 1.4.3.
But sure, let's whine about the continuous nerfing of terran.
On December 04 2014 05:31 kinsky wrote: oh no! the 4 only good terrans that exist, started to win tournaments again. lets nerf terran again...
edit: sarcasm bot.
So which one of these 7 Terran Tournament winners do you think isn't good? Flash, Forgg, Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, MMA, Polt
And since terran is nerfed again, when was the last time they were nerfed exactly?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but ignoring the reverted WM nerf, it looks like the last nerf was moving the hellbat bonus damage vs light to the preigniter upgrade. Other than that, nothing since snipe and MULEs on gold, back in 1.4.3.
But sure, let's whine about the continuous nerfing of terran.
If anything, nerfing continuously a race is a sign that the race is doing well. So Terran not being nerfed for a long time is only proof of its non-imbaness :D What happens with Terran is usually this: Terran doesn't win shit for 6 months, Blizzard gives it a small buff, the same old good Terrans start to win massively, Blizzard nerfs it to the ground and repeat the cycle.
I like the change, as it's a move in the right direction. I still think nerfing Widow Mines health from 90 to 80 would be a very reasonably option to consider, if the idea is to bring HT style play back. This nerf would allow storms to kill a mine, and give the protoss player another ability to clear mines from range, which is one of the main benefits of the current collosus style.
Honestly, upping the amount of shots needed to kill Protoss with Widow Mines is just increasing the amount of times that the Terran army is going to get hit too.
Ok, indroducing a new map pool and at the same time buffing the struggling terran race made terran a bit to strong. What´s the best way to fix this? Nerfing Terran and indroducing new maps, that most likely will favor the other races. I can´t see why you wouldn´t wait for the new maps and adjuste after this if anything is needed.
On December 04 2014 05:31 kinsky wrote: oh no! the 4 only good terrans that exist, started to win tournaments again. lets nerf terran again...
edit: sarcasm bot.
So which one of these 7 Terran Tournament winners do you think isn't good? Flash, Forgg, Innovation, Taeja, Bomber, MMA, Polt
is this a trick question
Na, I'm just courious since he says that there are only 4good terrans that won tournaments, but I counted 7 different tournament winners. Hence, 3 of them have to be bad players by his statement.
And there's Skyhigh and Marineking with recent good results.
On December 04 2014 05:54 Lunareste wrote: Honestly, upping the amount of shots needed to kill Protoss with Widow Mines is just increasing the amount of times that the Terran army is going to get hit too.
3 Widow Mines to kill one zealot is enough.
3 Widow Mines already kill 3 Zealots. The splash from them is also enough to kill like 5 more Zealots.
When you think of the units that die directly from the shots, the units that die from the splash, and the units that die before they can even engage the Terran army, Widow Mines are very strong.
People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
On December 04 2014 05:07 Cheren wrote: First, instant hellbat transformation. Hellbats are way too common in TvZ now, the upgrade should be re-added with maybe a lower research time and cost.
Hellbats are too common? Yeah, I guess if you want 9/10 TvZs to be MMMWM into perpetuity, then you might say Hellbats are too common. Some people don't horribly mind having more totally viable units injecting fresh life into the meta.
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
Please don't go there. It's never the players fault that they are winning. All those "our players are better than yours" are disgusting implicit player bashes.
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
So he starts out by saying we have noticed that Zerg is underperforming and having a tough time and we want to address that and then jumps straight to talking about the widow mine for TvP usage.....what in the hell does that have to do with Zerg? The map pool even when it wasnt the dream pool Terran was still raping and Zerg was still underperforming so....
On December 04 2014 06:05 KMART561 wrote: So he starts out by saying we have noticed that Zerg is underperforming and having a tough time and we want to address that and then jumps straight to talking about the widow mine for TvP usage.....what in the hell does that have to do with Zerg? The map pool even when it wasnt the dream pool Terran was still raping and Zerg was still underperforming so....
Zergs are doing poorly because Protoss are losing to Terran. If more Protoss beat Terrans then Zergs would have to face more Protoss and they'd win more often because ZvP is easymode. Therefore to buff Zerg Blizzard needs to nerf TvP.
Actually I find it very interesting that they're not addressing that at all....
I think honestly it's because in TvP there is a clear thing to put their finger on (widow mines and maps) whereas in TvZ they are a bit more lost. Zergs lose games where mines aren't even made because of metagame choices made assuming the Terran would play standard... so it's hard to figure out whether it's the Hellbat or the Mines or the upgrades.. but there is SOMETHING going on that needs tweaking.
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
???
How can you call someone who made an all-kill in BW proleague a mediocre player?
ForGG won that game because he let his opponent think he was going mech, then went bio instead while the zerg had already invested heavily into swarm hosts. GG you can't really go SH against bio.
Marineking, how did he win those games? Mostly by defending the silly all ins people are trying against him. "Marineking hasn't been around for long and I have none of his games to study, I'll just all-in him" is exactly how all his opponents have played.
But this nerf to mine is a good one that will make zealot templar viable again.
On December 04 2014 05:52 Entropy137 wrote: I like the change, as it's a move in the right direction. I still think nerfing Widow Mines health from 90 to 80 would be a very reasonably option to consider, if the idea is to bring HT style play back. This nerf would allow storms to kill a mine, and give the protoss player another ability to clear mines from range, which is one of the main benefits of the current collosus style.
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
???
How can you call someone who made an all-kill in BW proleague a mediocre player?
ForGG won that game because he let his opponent think he was going mech, then went bio instead while the zerg had already invested heavily into swarm hosts. GG you can't really go SH against bio.
Marineking, how did he win those games? Mostly by defending the silly all ins people are trying against him. "Marineking hasn't been around for long and I have none of his games to study, I'll just all-in him" is exactly how all his opponents have played.
But this nerf to mine is a good one that will make zealot templar viable again.
Brood War is a totally different game and is irrelevant. You could also say "how can you call MVP mediocre he won 5 GSLs!" but the reality is, now he is bad.
I think it's also a bit telling that top Protosses are choosing to cheese MarineKing rather than play standard macro games. They're willing to take the risk rather than trying to play a macro game against a guy that switched to fucking LOL and came back for God's sake. MarineKing has been irrelevant for at least YEARS.
It's like Zerg is the underperforming race and its either its because its unbalanced or that only top Zerg players have figured out how to beat Protoss and Terran...which one is it? Life is Life and is in his own category so we can compare him to any other Zerg but the other top Zergs like Solar and SoO are having a really tough time right now too.
when i made this exact same argument when protoss was winning everything (see pigbaby/classic/dear) you shot me down yet the exact same situation with terran and you want to argue that point..
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
Life just won the WCS finals. He had to go through Taeja and MMA. If it was so easy to win right now as Terran, they would have done the same thing as ForGG.
ForGG has shown streaks of brilliance before - he's a very good player who fails to play at a consistent championship level but is certainly capable of doing so. And based on Life's pattern of being a champion > falling into a rut > being a champion again, it shouldn't surprise anyone that ForGG can beat Life on occasion.
One win or even a single streak of wins at a tournament by a streaky player against another streaky player does not signal a balance issue.
On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote: Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get.
Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed.
Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything.
Tanks are useless out of TvT dude.
Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid.
Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT....
That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game.
Is this a joke?
BCs are useful late game choice, mass BCs with air support wreck all sorts of Z / P armies. You never heard of the broken mass Raven TvZ have you? Banshees are useful cheese options and sometimes complemented with mech.
Tanks aren't as useful vs. two other races but not completely useless. They are sometimes used vs. Zerg with certain maps that have higher elevation and cliffs, and is a better option vs mass SH than mines.
We all know you don't want a T nerf but you have to admit when the game is broken, even Blizzard said it, how are you going to deny it when the game creator said it?
On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote: Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get.
Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed.
Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything.
Tanks are useless out of TvT dude.
Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid.
Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT....
That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game.
Is this a joke?
BCs are useful late game choice, mass BCs with air support wreck all sorts of Z / P armies.
...
We all know you don't want a T nerf but you have to admit when the game is broken, even Blizzard said it, how are you going to deny it when the game creator said it?
Really... and the extensive pro games with mass Battlecruiser transitions that result in massive Terran wins are where, exactly?
I will give you that mass Raven, if achieved, is super hard to break through, but no one in the Blizzard team is using the word 'broken'. We're talking about slight advantages, and how to average them out as close to 50% as possible while still keeping the game fun. There is no reason to go all sky-is-falling by calling the whole game 'broken'. If it can be balanced by maps, there's no way it's THAT bad.
Nimbus : 67-35 (65.7%) No patch between all this periods.
I think it's to smart to wait next pool map and then check if there are some sort of imbalance. Personally i think it's a maps based issues.
Link to the source of the data? I always love to check stats and such.
Also regarding the maps i'm very happy for them to realize that the map pool coupled with the Terran buffs at the end of the S2 are the source of the issues today, nonetheless i'm still worried about what maps will they bring in? AFAIK no mapmaker has been in talks with Blizzard about this, and we are in December one month away from the next season, there is no time to think about new layouts in the case of a TLMC, if they pick off random community maps without talking to much people about them then balance can't be assured.
Looks great. As much as I detest the Protoss race some variance in TvP would be great (besides the rare mind-game/gimmick). If change in map-pool means "maps which favor the current T-favored paradigm" coupled with "maps which give a little somethin' to Z" then I am all for it. Zerg being able to drone up to 70 drones is never a bad thing with the current state of affairs.
As a terran player, I'm not particularly looking forward to playing against templar openings again. They are among the most frustating bullshit to deal with. But if its better for the game overall to strengthen pvt balance, then I'll accept it.
On December 04 2014 06:55 Dreamer.T wrote: As a terran player, I'm not particularly looking forward to playing against templar openings again. They are among the most frustating bullshit to deal with. But if its better for the game overall to strengthen pvt balance, then I'll accept it.
WOAH vs Templar is THE most fun you ever get to play 0_0
Minutes of skirmishing on no end, 12 0 energy medivacs! Epicness!
On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote: Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get.
Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed.
Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything.
Tanks are useless out of TvT dude.
Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid.
Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT....
That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game.
Is this a joke?
BCs are useful late game choice, mass BCs with air support wreck all sorts of Z / P armies. You never heard of the broken mass Raven TvZ have you? Banshees are useful cheese options and sometimes complemented with mech.
Are you guys trying to outdo one another? Come on. Tanks are good units in TvZ, and Battlecruisers are complete trash outside of some niche uses in TvT.
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
LOL. Anyway, MarineKing uses builds from 3 years ago in TvP so you can whine all you want, he's not stopping. And sKyHigh beat Flash and Bbyong in TvTs, that screams legit to me. "Patch imbaraceplayers" don't win in mirror matchups.
On December 04 2014 06:55 Dreamer.T wrote: As a terran player, I'm not particularly looking forward to playing against templar openings again. They are among the most frustating bullshit to deal with. But if its better for the game overall to strengthen pvt balance, then I'll accept it.
WOAH vs Templar is THE most fun you ever get to play 0_0
Minutes of skirmishing on no end, 12 0 energy medivacs! Epicness!
I really hope you're being sarcastic. It's understandable if you're toss, I can't imagine a-moving some zealots back and forth is as annoying as macroing and microing mmm non stop.
On December 04 2014 06:55 Dreamer.T wrote: As a terran player, I'm not particularly looking forward to playing against templar openings again. They are among the most frustating bullshit to deal with. But if its better for the game overall to strengthen pvt balance, then I'll accept it.
WOAH vs Templar is THE most fun you ever get to play 0_0
Minutes of skirmishing on no end, 12 0 energy medivacs! Epicness!
To play yes, to play against no, specially not if you against templars and a wall of 20 zealots. Zealot/templar was one of the most anoying strats to play against, it was all just kitting to your death will trying not to eat 2 storms that would destroy your whole army.
But I'm positive, as long as they don't over nerf the WM, terran would have AoE of its own and it may be fun now, Biomine vs zealot/templar was fun to watch after the patch, I hope they get the balance right and it ends being awesome.
I just hope they get the maps right, thats what would probably have the most impact on the game.
I'm really hoping that they change the maps and wait at least a month or so even two before the nerf the mine. i honestly believe its the maps and by then toss will have to learn to play vs them a lot better, and if then there's still a problem then even as a terran go ahead and nerf that bitch. even if it mean me going back to 33% winrate vs toss again the game will be balanced
ps my tvp w/r now is only now getting to 50% but barely.
On December 04 2014 03:22 CakeSauc3 wrote: Would this bring back Templar openings?
Glad they're mostly focusing on maps.
I hope so, colossi are boring, ht much better, more fun
Same here, I love diversity. When I offrace as Protoss, I still try and play Templar vs T, even though it doesn't usually work against the smart Terrans. It just feels so much more like classic BW Protoss to me :D Also, I think it's much more fun to watch in professional matches.
Please no more Daedalus Point or huge maps though : don't bring stupid maps (retardedly wide ramps, Alterzim Stronghold like maps...) just to "help" Zergs.
I don't understand why it takes Blizzard months and months to figure out how to balance something they made overpowered when it was pretty obvious from the get go. I mean, I'm pretty sure their thought process initially went like this. "Hmm, widow mine not so good against protoss, lets give it +40 damage to shields for single target! Hmm, we want to buff it more, lets give it + shield damage on its aoe too! How much? +40 because that's how much bonus shield damage it does to single target too!" Completely disregarding the fact that the aoe is 1/3 of the damage of the single target, hence giving both the same + shield damage was completely idiotic. It should have been +15 or +20 at the start. I don't see how they could have missed the fact that a 75/25 cost unit one-shotting sentries and templars with its 1.75 radius aoe was a bit problematic.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happened when they decided to give mutalisks insane regeneration. After they gave reapers regen, they looked at the muta and went. Hmm reaper = mobile harass unit and it has regen.... muta = harass unit, we need to give it regen!
On December 04 2014 07:22 Zanzabarr wrote: I don't understand why it takes Blizzard months and months to figure out how to balance something they made overpowered when it was pretty obvious from the get go. I mean, I'm pretty sure their thought process initially went like this. "Hmm, widow mine not so good against protoss, lets give it +40 damage to shields for single target! Hmm, we want to buff it more, lets give it + shield damage on its aoe too! How much? +40 because that's how much bonus shield damage it does to single target too!" Completely disregarding the fact that the aoe is 1/3 of the damage of the single target, hence giving both the same + shield damage was completely idiotic. It should have been +15 or +20 at the start. I don't see how they could have missed the fact that a 75/25 cost unit one-shotting sentries and templars with its 1.75 radius aoe was a bit problematic.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happened when they decided to give mutalisks insane regeneration. After they gave reapers regen, they looked at the muta and went. Hmm reaper = mobile harass unit and it has regen.... muta = harass unit, we need to give it regen!
More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
What do you mean, another, Terran nerf? Terrans have been getting nothing but buffs since HotS came out. The only nerf was reversed.
Also, I think you seem to be the only one struggling with these things. Maybe because your play style is extremely predictable? Just my guess.
Not everyone enjoys playing 2 hour snoozefests you know. You're a niche streamer but for the vast majority of people that shit is super boring.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Players that almost never use mines and think they suck against Protoss have no right to complain about this (not final) change.
Please no more Daedalus Point or huge maps though : don't bring stupid maps (retardedly wide ramps, Alterzim Stronghold like maps...) just to "help" Zergs.
Alterzim wasn't even a good Zerg map... The first half of its existance was a drop hell against Terran and the second half of it was every Protoss picking it in tournaments against zergs.
Please no more Daedalus Point or huge maps though : don't bring stupid maps (retardedly wide ramps, Alterzim Stronghold like maps...) just to "help" Zergs.
Alterzim wasn't even a good Zerg map... The first half of its existance was a drop hell against Terran and the second half of it was every Protoss picking it in tournaments against zergs.
Alterzm was "good for Zerg" until people figured out that you can hide pretty much anything anywhere and 3 base allin like a pro.
Please no more Daedalus Point or huge maps though : don't bring stupid maps (retardedly wide ramps, Alterzim Stronghold like maps...) just to "help" Zergs.
Alterzim wasn't even a good Zerg map... The first half of its existance was a drop hell against Terran and the second half of it was every Protoss picking it in tournaments against zergs.
Alterzm was "good for Zerg" until people figured out that you can hide pretty much anything anywhere and 3 base allin like a pro.
Well, it's also superbad for Swarm Hosts which makes lategame vs Protoss a huge pain in the ass, as games like Zest vs soO have showcased. And in general creeping on those maps towards your opponent is so hard and so easy to remove huge parts of it again, that even in the open it is quite hard to get favorable engagements in the lategame.
Please no more Daedalus Point or huge maps though : don't bring stupid maps (retardedly wide ramps, Alterzim Stronghold like maps...) just to "help" Zergs.
Alterzim wasn't even a good Zerg map... The first half of its existance was a drop hell against Terran and the second half of it was every Protoss picking it in tournaments against zergs.
Well my point was more "don't make retarded maps that obviously favor one race". It's not like Zerg is doing absolutely awful, more than T is doing so well lately and the WM slight nerf + map changes should solve that issue. If the next legit map pool contains maps as bad as Nimbus or Catallena were, I'll be really disappointed though.
Please no more Daedalus Point or huge maps though : don't bring stupid maps (retardedly wide ramps, Alterzim Stronghold like maps...) just to "help" Zergs.
Alterzim wasn't even a good Zerg map... The first half of its existance was a drop hell against Terran and the second half of it was every Protoss picking it in tournaments against zergs.
Well my point was more "don't make retarded maps that obviously favor one race". It's not like Zerg is doing absolutely awful, more than T is doing so well lately and the WM slight nerf + map changes should solve that issue. If the next legit map pool contains maps as bad as Nimbus or Catallena were, I'll be really disappointed though.
Yeah, some of the maps are pretty bad for the current state of balance. But keep in mind that the maps were made when Terrans were doing bad which was at least partly because of bad maps for them. Then blizzard introduced them and changed the balance on top of that. Just doing one of those two things could have turned out OK. Like the safety of Nimbus 3rd base and all the aggressive advantages Terran can get on the map make sense if you consider how with weaker widow mines it was a bit harder to push against Zerg on maps were the 3rd base was also harder to defend. E.g. on Frost, which was a great map but absolutly horrible for Terran after the widow mine nerf.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
^ The thing is, BW JD would never have lost to that kind of shit. JD (even though he's my biggest nerd crush of all time) just isn't all that great at SC2.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
So why aren't tournaments played on "micro arena" or similar maps that are one-dimensional?
The objective of a starcraft 2 match is to either destroy the opponent's buildings or have them leave the game. How you get to that point is irrelevant.
On December 04 2014 08:45 mierin wrote: ^ The thing is, BW JD would never have lost to that kind of shit. JD (even though he's my biggest nerd crush of all time) just isn't all that great at SC2.
I would argue that BW is a game that simply allows the better player to win, even in a cheese-rush scenario, but... don't want to fire up the ol' BW elitism :D
On December 04 2014 08:45 mierin wrote: ^ The thing is, BW JD would never have lost to that kind of shit. JD (even though he's my biggest nerd crush of all time) just isn't all that great at SC2.
I would argue that BW is a game that simply allows the better player to win, even in a cheese-rush scenario, but... don't want to fire up the ol' BW elitism :D
Not gonna argue with you there...but I still have never raged harder than JD losing to Flash when he 5raxes...totally imba.
I'd imagine Blizz found it hard to buff Zerg right after they won the global finals. Their tournament representation is looking pretty sad though.
The TvP matchup is pretty out of whack but I think its been designed so poorly that its "balanced" state will look dumb. Terran needs an advantage in the mid or late game to offset the ridiculous strength of Protoss cheese (compared to Terran cheese).
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
So why aren't tournaments played on "micro arena" or similar maps that are one-dimensional?
Is three paragraphs too long to hold your attention? I stated very clearly that "brainy play deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up." You know, after defending Classic and ForGG's victories for an entire paragraph. Hard to miss.
The objective of a starcraft 2 match is to either destroy the opponent's buildings or have them leave the game. How you get to that point is irrelevant.
If how you get to the point of victory is irrelevant, why balance the game at all? If the game is imbalanced, players can just play the superior race and win, and SC2 will have succeeded in its purpose of letting the player that won beat the player that lost!
The point of competition is to reward some kind of skill. A good competition will reward meaningful skills. A bad competition will reward meaningless skills (ie coin flipping contest). I want SC2 to be as good, as respectable, as worthwhile a competition as it is possible for an RTS to be.
On December 04 2014 07:22 Zanzabarr wrote: I don't understand why it takes Blizzard months and months to figure out how to balance something they made overpowered when it was pretty obvious from the get go. I mean, I'm pretty sure their thought process initially went like this. "Hmm, widow mine not so good against protoss, lets give it +40 damage to shields for single target! Hmm, we want to buff it more, lets give it + shield damage on its aoe too! How much? +40 because that's how much bonus shield damage it does to single target too!" Completely disregarding the fact that the aoe is 1/3 of the damage of the single target, hence giving both the same + shield damage was completely idiotic. It should have been +15 or +20 at the start. I don't see how they could have missed the fact that a 75/25 cost unit one-shotting sentries and templars with its 1.75 radius aoe was a bit problematic.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happened when they decided to give mutalisks insane regeneration. After they gave reapers regen, they looked at the muta and went. Hmm reaper = mobile harass unit and it has regen.... muta = harass unit, we need to give it regen!
lol muta always had regen just not as crazy lol.
Yes, yes, all zerg units always had slight regen... I know this. They basically quadrupled the regen of the muta because it's a "harass" unit, and a harass unit like the reaper was given it. Oh Blizzard.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
So why aren't tournaments played on "micro arena" or similar maps that are one-dimensional?
Is three paragraphs too long to hold your attention? I stated very clearly that "brainy play deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up." You know, after defending Classic and ForGG's victories for an entire paragraph. Hard to miss.
The objective of a starcraft 2 match is to either destroy the opponent's buildings or have them leave the game. How you get to that point is irrelevant.
If how you get to the point of victory is irrelevant, why balance the game at all? If the game is imbalanced, players can just play the superior race and win, and SC2 will have succeeded in its purpose of letting the player that won beat the player that lost!
The point of competition is to reward some kind of skill. A good competition will reward meaningful skills. A bad competition will reward meaningless skills (ie coin flipping contest). I want SC2 to be as good, as respectable, as worthwhile a competition as it is possible for an RTS to be.
So are you saying cannon rush is imbalanced, then? From what I gathered you think Has beating JD doesn't count as a valid win because he used cannon rush and didn't mess up.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
So why aren't tournaments played on "micro arena" or similar maps that are one-dimensional?
Is three paragraphs too long to hold your attention? I stated very clearly that "brainy play deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up." You know, after defending Classic and ForGG's victories for an entire paragraph. Hard to miss.
The objective of a starcraft 2 match is to either destroy the opponent's buildings or have them leave the game. How you get to that point is irrelevant.
If how you get to the point of victory is irrelevant, why balance the game at all? If the game is imbalanced, players can just play the superior race and win, and SC2 will have succeeded in its purpose of letting the player that won beat the player that lost!
The point of competition is to reward some kind of skill. A good competition will reward meaningful skills. A bad competition will reward meaningless skills (ie coin flipping contest). I want SC2 to be as good, as respectable, as worthwhile a competition as it is possible for an RTS to be.
So are you saying cannon rush is imbalanced, then? From what I gathered you think Has beating JD doesn't count as a valid win because he used cannon rush and didn't mess up.
There's a lot more to SC2 being a good game than the question "is it balanced or not," and the degree to which I care about 50/50 results is infinitely smaller than the degree to which I care that all competitors are judged against the most rigorous standards available as consistently as possible. SC2 isn't just for kicks, pro-gamers invest years into the game and their livelihood depends on it. I want to be as sure as is reasonably possible that the guys investing years into practicing their mechanics aren't getting cheesed out by someone who's on top of the meta for a couple of weeks.
p.s. saying that Has didn't mess up is being needlessly charitable. He certainly messed up, executing a very rudimentary build, no less. It just wasn't bad enough to cost him the game, because the avenues for counter-play for Jaedong were severely limited.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
I'm missing the link between one of the oldest, overplayed rushes and innovating.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
I say leave it alone and let it all burn down... Everybody fend for themselves. This kind of conversation is poison for the community. It's also circular, it will never end.
It's not exciting, it doesn't add anything to the game, it just makes for many complaints about the game and destroys creative thought.
It rewards something that shouldn't be rewarded. Gratz on your opiate for the masses.
On December 04 2014 12:12 GGzerG wrote: So I feel widowmines are the most imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, this change doesn't seem like it will effect Zerg at all will it?
yea i have no clue what is going on. there's already a thread about this on battle.net forums.
On December 04 2014 12:12 GGzerG wrote: So I feel widowmines are the most imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, this change doesn't seem like it will effect Zerg at all will it?
I believe that it has been said that they will try to fix the vZerg imbalance through maps, so they're working on tweaking TvP. However, since they're not communicating with TL mapmakers about the map pool next year, I don't know what's going on.
On December 04 2014 12:12 GGzerG wrote: So I feel widowmines are the most imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, this change doesn't seem like it will effect Zerg at all will it?
I believe that it has been said that they will try to fix the vZerg imbalance through maps, so they're working on tweaking TvP. However, since they're not communicating with TL mapmakers about the map pool next year, I don't know what's going on.
Hopefully, they are working closely with some Korean mapmakers ><
On December 04 2014 12:12 GGzerG wrote: So I feel widowmines are the most imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, this change doesn't seem like it will effect Zerg at all will it?
I believe that it has been said that they will try to fix the vZerg imbalance through maps, so they're working on tweaking TvP. However, since they're not communicating with TL mapmakers about the map pool next year, I don't know what's going on.
Hopefully, they are working closely with some Korean mapmakers ><
Not just Korean mapmakers...just any mapmakers with sense. We have plenty non KR mapmakers here who get it.
On December 04 2014 12:12 GGzerG wrote: So I feel widowmines are the most imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, this change doesn't seem like it will effect Zerg at all will it?
I believe that it has been said that they will try to fix the vZerg imbalance through maps, so they're working on tweaking TvP. However, since they're not communicating with TL mapmakers about the map pool next year, I don't know what's going on.
Hopefully, they are working closely with some Korean mapmakers ><
Not just Korean mapmakers...just any mapmakers with sense. We have plenty non KR mapmakers here who get it.
Yes, but the trouble is we know for a fact that they're not working with non-KR mapmakers. So either they're working with KR mapmakers, or they're not working with mapmakers at all.
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
That's fine, because Soccer and StarCraft competitive formats are different. In SC2 tournament play, it's almost always a Bo3 or Bo5 or Bo7. Therefore, an aggressive, cheesy game can be compared to a single play that would exist in a soccer match. It can be used to test your opponent's preparedness, or to catch a tired opponent off guard to clench a match in the final minutes. It's completely fair, and adds more depth to the game.
Therefore, I think the analogy of cheese being like a soccer team having an illegal lineup isn't accurate. I'd compare it more to a hockey game where one team pulls a goalie for an extra skater to go all-in. Or like in American Football, when you go for an onside kick or a fake field goal attempt. It's just a sneaky play that normally doesn't work, but if you've prepared it and you feel your opponent isn't able to handle it, you can pull it off.
I also thoroughly enjoy the depth that cheese adds to team league play in SC2. The idea that you can send one player in who excels at macro, to tire out a star player on the other team, and then follow it up with a sniper who has a well prepared cheese is amazing. Strategies like that always draw me in - and it's even more remarkable when the star player is able to win both games.
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
I think everyone will agree on this. But this comes back to the basic flaw that SC2 is too mechanically easy. Cheese was much more impressive in BW. However, as has been discussed a billion times on TL, Blizzard will never change the basic mechanics of the game.
If they do this change before dreampool ends, maybe Blizz could switch it back to the previous ladder maps. Im sure everyone would want to play considering the recent tournaments and of course Blizzcon. It would be nice to see how the balance change would play out on the regular maps.
On December 04 2014 14:01 CakeSauc3 wrote: Therefore, I think the analogy of cheese being like a soccer team having an illegal lineup isn't accurate. I'd compare it more to a hockey game where one team pulls a goalie for an extra skater to go all-in.
But a hockey team isn't going to play an entire game with their goalie cheesing it up on the ice. The fraction of a match that is decided by the goalie being out of the net is much smaller than the fraction of a SC2 series that's decided by a decision to Baneling bust.
In other words: if you want to do a weird play in any physical sport I can think of, you still have to be able to play the standard game throughout the rest of the match, the 95% where you're not doing weird plays. In SC2, if you elect to do a weird play and are relatively good at it... there is no rest of the match. You just got to decide that your opponent's multitasking, macro, and micro are all going to be meaningless, unless he 1) identifies the cheese, 2) knows how to deal with the cheese, 3) deals with the cheese without taking critical damage, 4) is able to transition back into a standard game. That's a monumental difference, IMO, and as a viewer I'm not thrilled about it.
Or like in American Football, when you go for an onside kick or a fake field goal attempt. It's just a sneaky play that normally doesn't work, but if you've prepared it and you feel your opponent isn't able to handle it, you can pull it off.
Sentry/Immortal doesn't normally work? Baneling/Roach busts versus Terran? Proxy Oracles? These things end games all the time. 2rax is practically a standard opening in TvZ at this point, although considering how much finesse it takes to execute and how frequently games transition into macro slugfests from then on, I think it's close to a gold standard for what aggressive openers should strive to be like. Not ideal from Zerg POV, but the risk/reward ratio seems right.
San just Sangated Jaedong to a 3-0 victory at DH:W. I think your "sneaky play that normally doesn't work" is a bit of a pipe dream at this point.
I think everyone will agree on this. But this comes back to the basic flaw that SC2 is too mechanically easy. Cheese was much more impressive in BW. However, as has been discussed a billion times on TL, Blizzard will never change the basic mechanics of the game.
Hey, Blizzard's nerfing the Colossus in LOTV and adding a full-time replacement. There's hope yet.
I always wondered about having maps that have a clear, if slight, advantage towards a certain race. The players who are at a disadvantage on said maps will simply veto them in ladder and tournament play, meaning that the maps will be played almost entirely by players who have the advantage, but in that case the advantage, whatever it is, is there no more, since the race that's disadvantaged isn't there in the map against you, So then, wouldn't that make maps like that basically pointless?
Please no more Daedalus Point or huge maps though : don't bring stupid maps (retardedly wide ramps, Alterzim Stronghold like maps...) just to "help" Zergs.
To rebalance- Give the game a tribunal for the hundreds of thousands of hackers. Revamp warp gate, remove swarm hosts, change the properties of widow mine to dive like vulture mines, remove multiple creep tumour spawns, increase queen speed off creep, decrease scan costs, bring back scourge, decrease collossus range, increase bunker build time, decrease spore damage to bio, decrease warp prism health, increase overloard speeds, split air and ground mech attack upgrades, give zerg tier 3 ability to get 220 supply, give terran a an early game super anti-air unit, increase the food supply for ravens, decrease the gas cost for ghosts, make snipe a ghost upgrade, and for the love of god REMOVE XEL NAGA CAVERNS FROM MAP POOL FOR ALL TIME.
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
@sigm I think you're right about making maps specifically to 'favor' a given race is a strange way to balance matchups. Seems more likely this will just increase the chance for mirrors on ladder (I play zerg so I don't mind all that much).
I agree with the conservatives here that it's better to wait and see what things look like in the new map pool. Although I'd love to see fungals do extra damage to shields or banes have additional splash radius when they're manually detonated I'd rather avoid having HOTS zerg in the place that WOL zerg was at the end going into LOTV and miss out on all the love again...
Oh yeah I'm a diamond scrub on the China server so balance doesn't effect me anyway :D
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
So lets roll back the stupid thor buff and hellbat change and just make different maps then.
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
???
How can you call someone who made an all-kill in BW proleague a mediocre player?
ForGG won that game because he let his opponent think he was going mech, then went bio instead while the zerg had already invested heavily into swarm hosts. GG you can't really go SH against bio.
Marineking, how did he win those games? Mostly by defending the silly all ins people are trying against him. "Marineking hasn't been around for long and I have none of his games to study, I'll just all-in him" is exactly how all his opponents have played.
But this nerf to mine is a good one that will make zealot templar viable again.
That's the point. Terrans were whining for quite some time that not both their tech paths are viable... ... now they are and Zerg has 1 path to counter each of those paths.
If the Terran goes Bio: BLing/Muta is the answer. If the Terran goes Mech: Some kind of SwarmHost style is probably the way to go.
On the other side: If the Zerg goes Ling/Muta and the Terran goes Mech, it's kinda a Freewin, if he goes Swarmhosts he's still got a shot on winning. If the Zerg goes Roach/Hydra/Swarmhosts and the Terran goes Bio it's a freewin, if he goes Mech he's still got a shot on winning.
Yes, Zerg is supposed to be the reactionary race, but it'd be nice if there was at least a CHANCE to fight an army with the "wrong tech path".
Change the maps, nurff widow mine.. Awesome news from a protoss point of view. Widow mine splash was really imba I believe... Just bring back Bel'shires vestige for next season and it woudl be AWESOME oh wait...
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
???
How can you call someone who made an all-kill in BW proleague a mediocre player?
ForGG won that game because he let his opponent think he was going mech, then went bio instead while the zerg had already invested heavily into swarm hosts. GG you can't really go SH against bio.
Marineking, how did he win those games? Mostly by defending the silly all ins people are trying against him. "Marineking hasn't been around for long and I have none of his games to study, I'll just all-in him" is exactly how all his opponents have played.
But this nerf to mine is a good one that will make zealot templar viable again.
That's the point. Terrans were whining for quite some time that not both their tech paths are viable... ... now they are and Zerg has 1 path to counter each of those paths.
If the Terran goes Bio: BLing/Muta is the answer. If the Terran goes Mech: Some kind of SwarmHost style is probably the way to go.
On the other side: If the Zerg goes Ling/Muta and the Terran goes Mech, it's kinda a Freewin, if he goes Swarmhosts he's still got a shot on winning. If the Zerg goes Roach/Hydra/Swarmhosts and the Terran goes Bio it's a freewin, if he goes Mech he's still got a shot on winning.
Yes, Zerg is supposed to be the reactionary race, but it'd be nice if there was at least a CHANCE to fight an army with the "wrong tech path".
That's far from being the problem. If you've already invested too much in banelings vs mech then you're just not scouting AT ALL. Muta openings are not bad at all vs mech.
On December 04 2014 17:28 tokinho wrote: To rebalance- Give the game a tribunal for the hundreds of thousands of hackers. Revamp warp gate, remove swarm hosts, change the properties of widow mine to dive like vulture mines, remove multiple creep tumour spawns, increase queen speed off creep, decrease scan costs, bring back scourge, decrease collossus range, increase bunker build time, decrease spore damage to bio, decrease warp prism health, increase overloard speeds, split air and ground mech attack upgrades, give zerg tier 3 ability to get 220 supply, give terran a an early game super anti-air unit, increase the food supply for ravens, decrease the gas cost for ghosts, make snipe a ghost upgrade, and for the love of god REMOVE XEL NAGA CAVERNS FROM MAP POOL FOR ALL TIME.
None of these changes are relevant except tribunal for hackers
220 supply and multi creep support was the funniest ones #bronzebalance !
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
???
How can you call someone who made an all-kill in BW proleague a mediocre player?
ForGG won that game because he let his opponent think he was going mech, then went bio instead while the zerg had already invested heavily into swarm hosts. GG you can't really go SH against bio.
Marineking, how did he win those games? Mostly by defending the silly all ins people are trying against him. "Marineking hasn't been around for long and I have none of his games to study, I'll just all-in him" is exactly how all his opponents have played.
But this nerf to mine is a good one that will make zealot templar viable again.
That's the point. Terrans were whining for quite some time that not both their tech paths are viable... ... now they are and Zerg has 1 path to counter each of those paths.
If the Terran goes Bio: BLing/Muta is the answer. If the Terran goes Mech: Some kind of SwarmHost style is probably the way to go.
On the other side: If the Zerg goes Ling/Muta and the Terran goes Mech, it's kinda a Freewin, if he goes Swarmhosts he's still got a shot on winning. If the Zerg goes Roach/Hydra/Swarmhosts and the Terran goes Bio it's a freewin, if he goes Mech he's still got a shot on winning.
Yes, Zerg is supposed to be the reactionary race, but it'd be nice if there was at least a CHANCE to fight an army with the "wrong tech path".
In theory, you're supposed to be able to tech switch way more easily with Zerg, it's not like you have to plant down 3 or 4 buildings of the same type to produce an adequate amount of their units.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
Soccer... Isn't that the sport where Greece won an european cup by turtling in defense the whole game and scoring one goal in counter attack in all of their matches against better opponents?
So when you say 'any other sport', you mean, 'except the one I'm using as an example'?
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
Then y nerf widow mines in pvt? In my opinion, blizzard should not issue any patch anymore and just let the game evolve itself. Or else, address the biggest issue now, they admit zerg being the weakest now, then they adjust tvp, how does that make sense?
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
Soccer... Isn't that the sport where Greece won an european cup by turtling in defense the whole game and scoring one goal in counter attack in all of their matches against better opponents?
So when you say 'any other sport', you mean, 'except the one I'm using as an example'?
Did they, or did they not have to play the whole 90mins or even longer? Was there any form of shortcut invovled how Greece won those games?
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
Then y nerf widow mines in pvt? In my opinion, blizzard should not issue any patch anymore and just let the game evolve itself. Or else, address the biggest issue now, they admit zerg being the weakest now, then they adjust tvp, how does that make sense?
I don't think u always have to look at statistics, if something feels very wrong. A Widow Mine blowing up 8 HT's is one of those feels. Then balance with maps to get the good statistics.
On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote: Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get.
Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed.
Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything.
Tanks are useless out of TvT dude.
Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid.
Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT....
That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game.
Did you see how Forgg used his tanks and banshee against life? ForGG made banshee Viking tank look imba.
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
Then y nerf widow mines in pvt? In my opinion, blizzard should not issue any patch anymore and just let the game evolve itself. Or else, address the biggest issue now, they admit zerg being the weakest now, then they adjust tvp, how does that make sense?
I don't think u always have to look at statistics, if something feels very wrong. A Widow Mine blowing up 8 HT's is one of those feels. Then balance with maps to get the good statistics.
If you manage to get your 8 templars killed by a mine, you've got a problem indeed, but it ain't the mine...
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
Soccer... Isn't that the sport where Greece won an european cup by turtling in defense the whole game and scoring one goal in counter attack in all of their matches against better opponents?
So when you say 'any other sport', you mean, 'except the one I'm using as an example'?
Did they, or did they not have to play the whole 90mins or even longer? Was there any form of shortcut invovled how Greece won those games?
There's no shortcut involved in how a cheeser wins his games either. SC2's goal is either to destroy all of your opponents buildings, or have your opponent leave the game before that happens because he doesn't believe he can prevent that from happening.
What pure.wasted is saying is that the way a cheeser achieves the goal of the game is criticizable, and that no other sport allows that.
That's not true. And that's not true either.
That's not true because it makes no sense on a rational stand point. What it's saying is basically that you shouldn't use your brain in competition. If your body isn't good enough to win the game, then you should just lose. That definition works only for sports that are purely based on performance, mainly athletism. Competition isn't the same thing as athletism. The moment you introduce the notion of playing against someone else, then you introduce the possibility to outplay and use mindgames, and your brain should be acknowledged as a part of what can make you better than your opponent, just like your body. Either your definition of 'better' has to entail everything that comes into play into the confrontation, or it's a bad one. More than that, it's a biased one.
In soccer, if the opponent team has better offensive capabilities, you don't just go: woops, they are better, GUESS WE LOSE. You can use a defensive strategy to shut them down and play for either a counter-attack, a draw or penalties. In tennis, if you feel like your stamina is coming to an end, you can choose to play shorter exchanges. People who serve a lot of aces will heavily benefit from that in those circumstances. In most sports you can even use strategies to make your opponent lose stamina faster and benefit from that.
On December 04 2014 22:40 Nebuchad wrote: In soccer, if the opponent team has better offensive capabilities, you don't just go: woops, they are better, GUESS WE LOSE.
You can instead roll in the grass and whine that you were pushed
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
Then y nerf widow mines in pvt? In my opinion, blizzard should not issue any patch anymore and just let the game evolve itself. Or else, address the biggest issue now, they admit zerg being the weakest now, then they adjust tvp, how does that make sense?
I'm also wondering about that. Zerg has the most trouble at the highest level - let's change PvT. Before the last patch, why didn't terrans say "let the game evolve before we buff terran" or "let's solve the problem via map pool"? It shouldn't come down to the maps in the end. That last buff was totally unnecessary. Reverse it. All done.
On December 04 2014 22:54 inken wrote: Before the last patch, why didn't terrans say "let the game evolve before we buff terran" or "let's solve the problem via map pool"?
They were too busy complaining about how they were getting removed from the game, under the weight of all the nerfs they've been getting with *nearly* every patch. It's not the same world.
So now Blizzard think they can 'fix' the situation with maps, ok, I'm curious to see that. Not because I believe it will be enough (though one can always hope), but because I'm wondering what, in Blizzard's mind, are map characteristics that favor zergs over the other two races.
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
Then y nerf widow mines in pvt? In my opinion, blizzard should not issue any patch anymore and just let the game evolve itself. Or else, address the biggest issue now, they admit zerg being the weakest now, then they adjust tvp, how does that make sense?
I don't think u always have to look at statistics, if something feels very wrong. A Widow Mine blowing up 8 HT's is one of those feels. Then balance with maps to get the good statistics.
If you manage to get your 8 templars killed by a mine, you've got a problem indeed, but it ain't the mine...
Yeah, haha I don't even know how that could reasonably happen. A mine flank? Hmm I don't think so as much as I'd like to do that. Probably just sending a clump of 8 templars ahead of your army without observers in the faint hope of catching the terran army? That doesn't seem like it should work, it, how do you say that....feels very wrong? :D
Templeropenings felt allways wrong, either playing T or P: As a P, you sit there, Gate FE and drop the T.C., a Forge and the T.A. after Nexus and then the Gate Explosion. With Charge. +1 armor and storm finish on 2 base and you can move out to take the third and you are still very save against the beginning of drop play due to the fact, that templers melt the medivacs (if you react fast enough). While you get your tech, you only get 3 stalkers and a sentry and have your 2 bases save, the terran can do nuts. When the action starts, you a move the charglots and take you time and apm to hit the 2 storms of doom, while the terran has to kite till his fingers bleed and focus alot more.
I know why these game are so good to watch, not only do storms and chargelots look way better then a coloball, the fights become longer due to the mass kiting but as a viewer you could also shout "SIIIICK STORMS!" when a storm hit or "SICK SPLITS!!!" when a terran dodges everything. But the fact, that the terran had to do tons of actions to dodge at this lvl and the protoss just had to drop 2 storms is still a fact, that made these fights feeling wrong.
But i think the it will be just time to mech it happen.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
Soccer... Isn't that the sport where Greece won an european cup by turtling in defense the whole game and scoring one goal in counter attack in all of their matches against better opponents?
So when you say 'any other sport', you mean, 'except the one I'm using as an example'?
Did they, or did they not have to play the whole 90mins or even longer? Was there any form of shortcut invovled how Greece won those games?
There's no shortcut involved in how a cheeser wins his games either. SC2's goal is either to destroy all of your opponents buildings, or have your opponent leave the game before that happens because he doesn't believe he can prevent that from happening.
What pure.wasted is saying is that the way a cheeser achieves the goal of the game is criticizable, and that no other sport allows that.
That's not true. And that's not true either.
That's not true because it makes no sense on a rational stand point. What it's saying is basically that you shouldn't use your brain in competition. If your body isn't good enough to win the game, then you should just lose. That definition works only for sports that are purely based on performance, mainly athletism. Competition isn't the same thing as athletism. The moment you introduce the notion of playing against someone else, then you introduce the possibility to outplay and use mindgames, and your brain should be acknowledged as a part of what can make you better than your opponent, just like your body. Either your definition of 'better' has to entail everything that comes into play into the confrontation, or it's a bad one. More than that, it's a biased one.
In soccer, if the opponent team has better offensive capabilities, you don't just go: woops, they are better, GUESS WE LOSE. You can use a defensive strategy to shut them down and play for either a counter-attack, a draw or penalties. In tennis, if you feel like your stamina is coming to an end, you can choose to play shorter exchanges. People who serve a lot of aces will heavily benefit from that in those circumstances. In most sports you can even use strategies to make your opponent lose stamina faster and benefit from that.
For me, what you say in the end comes down to a discussion about "There are rules and aims, as long as you follow the rules to achieve the aims you are the better player". I don't think anybody would be denying that on such a fundamental level. But when you go a few levels higher you will find that many people do critizise football teams for playing overly defensive or even destructive. And Starcraft takes this to even another level, allowing people to not only win in quite destructive ways (such as Swarm Host playstyles and similar turtle strategies) but also very luckbased strategies and strategies that just happen before there are meaningful ways to showcase skill. And all of that without a stamina element. When you score in football with 10forwards in your formation giving everything they have for 15mins, they are exhausted afterwards and you are stuck with a bad formation. You'll probably receive a ton of goals and lose the game. If you score with a 7gate allin, you are back to full power in the next game and you can play a completely different strategy. At worst you will receive a single loss in a series of games.
On December 04 2014 22:40 Nebuchad wrote: In soccer, if the opponent team has better offensive capabilities, you don't just go: woops, they are better, GUESS WE LOSE.
You can instead roll in the grass and whine that you were pushed
If the opponent is better, you cant simple go all-in or cheese to a win. What you have to do is something of the following: -Set up traps. Traps exist in chess, football(offside) and rts games. -Outsmart the opponent. -Outmicro the opponent.
Even if a player is better than the other player, its still possible to win engagements by tactics. Its also possible to win the strategy war. Lots of things to do.
All-in and cheese is pure shit imo. The allins in sc2 is very pathetic.
cheese/mindgames is one of my favourite things, ideally though it should only grant you a small edge or disadvantage rather than outright win or lose you the game.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
Soccer... Isn't that the sport where Greece won an european cup by turtling in defense the whole game and scoring one goal in counter attack in all of their matches against better opponents?
So when you say 'any other sport', you mean, 'except the one I'm using as an example'?
Did they, or did they not have to play the whole 90mins or even longer? Was there any form of shortcut invovled how Greece won those games?
There's no shortcut involved in how a cheeser wins his games either. SC2's goal is either to destroy all of your opponents buildings, or have your opponent leave the game before that happens because he doesn't believe he can prevent that from happening.
What pure.wasted is saying is that the way a cheeser achieves the goal of the game is criticizable, and that no other sport allows that.
That's not true. And that's not true either.
That's not true because it makes no sense on a rational stand point. What it's saying is basically that you shouldn't use your brain in competition. If your body isn't good enough to win the game, then you should just lose. That definition works only for sports that are purely based on performance, mainly athletism. Competition isn't the same thing as athletism. The moment you introduce the notion of playing against someone else, then you introduce the possibility to outplay and use mindgames, and your brain should be acknowledged as a part of what can make you better than your opponent, just like your body. Either your definition of 'better' has to entail everything that comes into play into the confrontation, or it's a bad one. More than that, it's a biased one.
In soccer, if the opponent team has better offensive capabilities, you don't just go: woops, they are better, GUESS WE LOSE. You can use a defensive strategy to shut them down and play for either a counter-attack, a draw or penalties. In tennis, if you feel like your stamina is coming to an end, you can choose to play shorter exchanges. People who serve a lot of aces will heavily benefit from that in those circumstances. In most sports you can even use strategies to make your opponent lose stamina faster and benefit from that.
But when you go a few levels higher you will find that many people do critizise football teams for playing overly defensive or even destructive.
Yes they do, and I've seen criticism of penalties at the end of playoff games because they're not a good representation of who the better team is. That displays to me that the mechanism is the same: when you're not satisfied with the result, you can always resort to criticizing the rules (or the referee, in the case of football). Most people recognize that claim as not being a serious one when it comes to football. I hope the same is true for Starcraft.
On December 04 2014 17:37 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok)
That really isn't true at all. Terran went more than seven months without winning a single premier tournament. They matched the all time low of 3 Code S players, and then beat it by going down to 2 in the next season.
If we jump to present day, it has been less than a month since the last Protoss and Zerg tournament wins. Their code S representations are really quite healthy. Anyone who thinks the situations are at all comparable is just wrong. There is no metric that will support their claims.
In July 2014 Terran had won less than a third of the prize money YTD that Protoss players did. People are really forgetting how bad things got.
Past imbalance does not justify current or future imbalance, but don't pretend that Blizzard started patching after our winrates went down for two weeks.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
Soccer... Isn't that the sport where Greece won an european cup by turtling in defense the whole game and scoring one goal in counter attack in all of their matches against better opponents?
So when you say 'any other sport', you mean, 'except the one I'm using as an example'?
Did they, or did they not have to play the whole 90mins or even longer? Was there any form of shortcut invovled how Greece won those games?
There's no shortcut involved in how a cheeser wins his games either. SC2's goal is either to destroy all of your opponents buildings, or have your opponent leave the game before that happens because he doesn't believe he can prevent that from happening.
What pure.wasted is saying is that the way a cheeser achieves the goal of the game is criticizable, and that no other sport allows that.
That's not true. And that's not true either.
That's not true because it makes no sense on a rational stand point. What it's saying is basically that you shouldn't use your brain in competition. If your body isn't good enough to win the game, then you should just lose. That definition works only for sports that are purely based on performance, mainly athletism. Competition isn't the same thing as athletism. The moment you introduce the notion of playing against someone else, then you introduce the possibility to outplay and use mindgames, and your brain should be acknowledged as a part of what can make you better than your opponent, just like your body. Either your definition of 'better' has to entail everything that comes into play into the confrontation, or it's a bad one. More than that, it's a biased one.
In soccer, if the opponent team has better offensive capabilities, you don't just go: woops, they are better, GUESS WE LOSE. You can use a defensive strategy to shut them down and play for either a counter-attack, a draw or penalties. In tennis, if you feel like your stamina is coming to an end, you can choose to play shorter exchanges. People who serve a lot of aces will heavily benefit from that in those circumstances. In most sports you can even use strategies to make your opponent lose stamina faster and benefit from that.
But when you go a few levels higher you will find that many people do critizise football teams for playing overly defensive or even destructive.
Yes they do, and I've seen criticism of penalties at the end of playoff games because they're not a good representation of who the better team is. That displays to me that the mechanism is the same: when you're not satisfied with the result, you can always resort to criticizing the rules (or the referee, in the case of football). Most people recognize that claim as not being a serious one when it comes to football. I hope the same is true for Starcraft.
Which is the part I can agree with, but not the point I was saying that. It was just a perspective to characterize why I think that Starcraft is much worse in that department.
Finally. Once TvP becomes more balanced, I can finally go back to hatin' on Protoss.
But for TvZ, I think they should nerf WMs somewhere between where they are currently and where they were before last patch. And / or return Transformation Servos, just make it 50/50 or something.
On December 05 2014 00:21 r691175002 wrote: Past imbalance does not justify current or future imbalance, but don't pretend that Blizzard started patching after our winrates went down for two weeks.
You're right, it wasn't two weeks. It was more like eight or nine weeks after the last Terran Premier Tournament win (which you seem to be using as your metric) before they started buffing Terran. Roughly two months. Patch 2.1 balance update of the 3rd of February to be exact. And over the approximately seven month period of "Terran weakness" they put out three or four balance updates (depends if you include the July patch in the "transition period"), all of which included direct Terran buffs.
Incidentally the only balance update between Trap's MLG Anaheim win in June and Zest breaking the Protoss dry spell in September (a period of about thirteen weeks or roughly three months) was a Protoss nerf/Terran buff patch. Patch 2.1.3 balance update of 25th July (and that was a massive mine buff patch that killed Templar play). Incidentally, that's been the ONLY balance patch since Terran started wrecking everyone around June. So in approaching six months of Terran taking 12 of 21 premier tournaments the only patch has been a buff to Terran.
To turn your own words around: don't pretend that Blizzard hasn't done more for Terran when Terran was having a hard time than they've done for the other races when Terran wrecking everyone; arguably because its not quite as bad, even though it is pretty bad. The facts don't support it. I know its trendy to have this "Blizzard does NOTHING for my race" thing going, but the patches don't support that story. They were trying throughout that period to help Terran, and evidently some of it worked; so reviling Blizzard for it is completely unfair.
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
Then y nerf widow mines in pvt? In my opinion, blizzard should not issue any patch anymore and just let the game evolve itself. Or else, address the biggest issue now, they admit zerg being the weakest now, then they adjust tvp, how does that make sense?
I don't think u always have to look at statistics, if something feels very wrong. A Widow Mine blowing up 8 HT's is one of those feels. Then balance with maps to get the good statistics.
If you manage to get your 8 templars killed by a mine, you've got a problem indeed, but it ain't the mine...
Yeah, haha I don't even know how that could reasonably happen. A mine flank? Hmm I don't think so as much as I'd like to do that. Probably just sending a clump of 8 templars ahead of your army without observers in the faint hope of catching the terran army? That doesn't seem like it should work, it, how do you say that....feels very wrong? :D
"Yeah, haha I don't even know how that could reasonably happen. A mine flank? Hmm I don't think so as much as I'd like to do that. Probably just sending a clump of 8 GHOSTS ahead of your army without CLOAK in the faint hope of catching the PROTOSS army? That doesn't seem like it should work, it, how do you say that....feels very wrong? :D"
There Tried to fix it for you, but it's still possible to get sniped/emp'ed if you cloak then
In order to understand a dynamic system we are advised to change one parameter at a time and observe the effects. Blizzard does not follow this method: ergo Blizzard does not know what they are doing.
Question for the swarm: Should we wrestle balance issues out of their hands?
On December 05 2014 03:27 Spinoza wrote: In order to understand a dynamic system we are advised to change one parameter at a time and observe the effects. Blizzard does not follow this method: ergo Blizzard does not know what they are doing.
Question for the swarm: Should we wrestle balance issues out of their hands?
If you give Balance in the hand of the swarm ( the people ), you will get a situation, where 2 races will play okay and one will be waaaay behind.
On December 05 2014 03:27 Spinoza wrote: In order to understand a dynamic system we are advised to change one parameter at a time and observe the effects. Blizzard does not follow this method: ergo Blizzard does not know what they are doing.
Question for the swarm: Should we wrestle balance issues out of their hands?
If you give Balance in the hand of the swarm ( the people ), you will get a situation, where 2 races will play okay and one will be waaaay behind.
Thank you sir, this is a valid objection. I want Blizzard to still have a vote and be a discussion partner but it will happen in an open forum where any and all can give input. Objective is transparency.
The 2 races disparity is already a problem (balance a three legged chair comes to mind) but I have seen no evidence from Blizzard that opaque decisions are better than openly discussed ones. There are also empirical evidence that "the wisdom of the crowds" is more accurate than the wisdom of "experts". (see here for details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_the_crowd)
On December 05 2014 03:27 Spinoza wrote: In order to understand a dynamic system we are advised to change one parameter at a time and observe the effects. Blizzard does not follow this method: ergo Blizzard does not know what they are doing.
Question for the swarm: Should we wrestle balance issues out of their hands?
If you give Balance in the hand of the swarm ( the people ), you will get a situation, where 2 races will play okay and one will be waaaay behind.
No, nothing will happen because people like to complain a lot, but never come up with solutions. Especially with the professional statistic reinterpreters in the balance thread...
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
Soccer... Isn't that the sport where Greece won an european cup by turtling in defense the whole game and scoring one goal in counter attack in all of their matches against better opponents?
So when you say 'any other sport', you mean, 'except the one I'm using as an example'?
This is a great point and you're completely right except for one thing... even a relatively shitty team like Greece, playing a shitty strategy that equalizes the skill playing field and is shitty to watch... still has world-class players on it that teams like Arsenal and Sheffield are happy to pick up, who have been playing soccer at a competitive level for decades.
For comparison, Jaedong has been playing for eight years. Flash, seven. Has... has been playing at a pseudo-competitive level for less than two years. To successfully suck at international-level soccer, you still have to be really, really good. To successfully suck at SC2 and get ro32/ro16 placements, you have to know how to Baneling bust and proxy Oracles. Not exactly the same thing, is it?
On December 04 2014 22:40 Nebuchad wrote: That's not true because it makes no sense on a rational stand point. What it's saying is basically that you shouldn't use your brain in competition. If your body isn't good enough to win the game, then you should just lose. That definition works only for sports that are purely based on performance, mainly athletism. Competition isn't the same thing as athletism. The moment you introduce the notion of playing against someone else, then you introduce the possibility to outplay and use mindgames, and your brain should be acknowledged as a part of what can make you better than your opponent, just like your body. Either your definition of 'better' has to entail everything that comes into play into the confrontation, or it's a bad one. More than that, it's a biased one.
In soccer, if the opponent team has better offensive capabilities, you don't just go: woops, they are better, GUESS WE LOSE. You can use a defensive strategy to shut them down and play for either a counter-attack, a draw or penalties. In tennis, if you feel like your stamina is coming to an end, you can choose to play shorter exchanges. People who serve a lot of aces will heavily benefit from that in those circumstances. In most sports you can even use strategies to make your opponent lose stamina faster and benefit from that.
Why must things be so binary? Either every mindgame is possible, no matter how easy to execute, or no mindgames are possible and the sport becomes mere, rote athleticism? There are other markers to strive for, like, again, the series between ForGG and Life, where ForGG was able to out-wile his opponent but still had to prove he could go toe-to-toe with him. His mindgames bought him an advantage, not victory, and that's the way it should be. If we replace ForGG with a random GM Terran at the exact moment ForGG decided to transition out of mech and into bio, the GM Terran doesn't just magically beat Life. In fact, he doesn't stand a chance. The question is... would you, with your hand over your heart, say that there's no way Innovation ever loses to a Baneling bust from a GM Zerg? I wonder.
I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245 Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. Thanks
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;(
On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote: I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245 Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. Thanks
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;(
best wishes, Mamba
They are not making the mappool Zerg favored. The stop keeping it Terran favored.
Hellbat rushes are a pain in the ass, but not breaking the matchup. These sorts rushes are really annoying because they turn beautiful matchups in low skill information gambles, but zerg has it's fair share of them too.
On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote: I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245 Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. Thanks
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;(
best wishes, Mamba
Gamemamba, not everyone agrees ZvT is Terran favored, I for one don't. Hellbats are not a problem currently for Zergs that scout deliberatly, like they want to. You play a race in a probably reactive style (like most Zergs), but you cannto react if you do not scout. Hellbats force you to react. End of story.
Just like Terran reacts vs Roaches and Protoss reacts against Proxy Hatches. Scout, React, Win.
Hellbat pushes are NOT unholdable by any stretch of the imagination, so I don't understand your balance change at all.
What everybody DOES agree on; Maps suck for balance atm.
The problem is you cant play reactive on something which is as difficult to scout as hellbat.
Is it standard 8Hellion Banshee? Or is it 8Hellbat Banshee?
It turns a Matchup which is all based around incredible Mechanics and sick micro into a coinflip. Should i build banes? Should I not? The difference is one building with the size of 3x3 that Terran can place whereever they want.
Its so hard for Zerg to know what exactly is coming towards them. 4 Marines deny Overlordsscouts so easily.
and next season in the world of pro level sc2 Terrans will probably be struggling quite badly vs Protoss. Have to give props to those Koreans, they sure know how to exploit a balance change to the fullest :p
On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote: I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. a
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Also your argumentation has actually no arguments you just state the hellbat is op thats pretty much it. I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over, because you won´t be able to scout what zerg is doing and you need every hellion/unit against roach bane busts.
I would like to see a new mappool before changes to the balance are done tbh, though the 20 shield damage nerf to the mine is worth a try if everyone complains that zealot heavy HT openings aren´t viable anymore (i guess splitting zealots vs mines ain´t possible huh?)
Back to the "Wisdom of the crowd". For me if any kind of that system would be enabled, it would lead to the following situation: One race does well because of whatever, to deep to write it up here: Now this race is terran
There will be alot of guys comlaining about this strong race, while terrans will try to "defend" their race. One million aligulac statistic experts mega analyst broker master posts later, they might still talk about the right amount of games, the right players and the bla bla for their statistic, but all other people involved will still have the feeling "terran strong" and nerf it. Because it is way easier to nerf a race then buffing one. The crowd will talk about terran nerfs, because they are strong and somepeople even will still complain about 2010/2011 when terran was hugh and the nerf time will begin. Terran will become weaker and weaker, zergs want to nerf the hellbat and the mine, protoss are annyoed by the mine and the marine, mules are bad ass and scans are worse! After time terran will be weak, zerg and protoss are strong. When now some terran will complain, we will see answers like "loool now it is balanced" or "you have been so strong last month, now it is is our time". I mean, people still complain about GomTvT, about Brofestor and about Blinkmadness, the three major unbalanced times we had. They will not forgett, even when there were only 2 Terrans in Code S left and only one Terran could achieve victorys in 10k Premires, we saw people shouting for terran op like we find now terrans cry for toss op.
Give this situation charismatic opinionmakers and blop, you will see one race falling down. That must not be terran, it will just be the race, that is doing well when this kind of balance system is started.
On December 05 2014 06:00 Clonester wrote: Back to the "Wisdom of the crowd". For me if any kind of that system would be enabled, it would lead to the following situation: One race does well because of whatever, to deep to write it up here: Now this race is terran
[edit]
Give this situation charismatic opinionmakers and blop, you will see one race falling down. That must not be terran, it will just be the race, that is doing well when this kind of balance system is started.
The "Wisdom of the Crowds" idea is designed specifically to deal with situations like this. Charismatic opinion-makers have power because of their status and loquacity and thus create problems in many democratic systems as well as all undemocratic ones, as you may well imagine.
Here is how it works:
A properly designed "wisdom" system strips away the individual to replace it with a collective anonymous decision. Just like a traditional democratic system which is designed to choose between two or more alternatives. You are excused to think these are the same thing, but they are not. A "wisdom" system is not designed to choose between alternatives per se, but to put a number/value/whatever on an unknown entity by a large anonymous reasonably well-informed crowd.
To be even more specific, democracy is choosing between a predetermined set of options, A, B or C (or more). Wisdom system are about setting a value on a specific parameter X. (In SCII this may very well be the damage done by widow mines say, or oracles or any other unit)
On December 05 2014 04:18 pure.Wasted wrote: If we replace ForGG with a random GM Terran at the exact moment ForGG decided to transition out of mech and into bio, the GM Terran doesn't just magically beat Life. In fact, he doesn't stand a chance. The question is... would you, with your hand over your heart, say that there's no way Innovation ever loses to a Baneling bust from a GM Zerg? I wonder.
Well that depends. Does Innovation make a mistake? Because see that's the thing. Life could totally lose to a GM Terran in that situation if he makes a big mistake, like a-moving some hydras or focusing his own hatch. What happens is, when you see that happen, you're able to identify this as a mistake, and so you don't count this as the terran winning, you count this as Life losing. If Inno loses to a GM Zerg's baneling bust, it will be his mistake as well. He didn't scout it, or he played a build that was so greedy that he couldn't react to it even after having scouted it. There is no reason to differentiate between those two types of mistakes. And yet people do, all the time.
I'm actually glad that you chose Inno for this because he's one of the people who annoy me the most in that regard. He will do such stupid things sometimes like when he scv pulled vs Panic who was on two bases and had 8 cannons... So yeah, I could totally see Inno specifically losing to that baneling bust. And then people come and say Inno is the best terran in the world... Completely dismissing that part of the game he's very weak at...
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Blizzard stated Zerg is underpowered. Now we're searching for solutions to fix that. There's no reason to still stick to the "my race isn't overpowered mimimi"
Blizzard wants to fix Zerg over the map. I say fix Zerg with removing the hellbatbuff. It's better for the metagame overall.
I dont say Hellbats are OP. Terran overall is OP against Zerg. So why dont remove a unnecessary kind of All-In to nerf Terran?
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Blizzard stated Zerg is underpowered. Now we're searching for solutions to fix that. There's no reason to still stick to the "my race isn't overpowered mimimi"
Blizzard wants to fix Zerg over the map. I say fix Zerg with removing the hellbatbuff. It's better for the metagame overall.
I dont say Hellbats are OP. Terran overall is OP against Zerg. So why dont remove a unnecessary kind of All-In to nerf Terran?
For a very simple reason. It's established that the map pool that we have now isn't a balanced one, it's been specifically designed to help terrans. Following that, it makes sense to see how terran fares on a map pool that has a different set goal, before we decide we should change something else.
On December 05 2014 05:52 Eiltonn wrote: I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over
Mmh ForGG managed to win DreamHack Winter by doing exactly that
On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote: I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. a
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Also your argumentation has actually no arguments you just state the hellbat is op thats pretty much it. I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over, because you won´t be able to scout what zerg is doing and you need every hellion/unit against roach bane busts.
I would like to see a new mappool before changes to the balance are done tbh, though the 20 shield damage nerf to the mine is worth a try if everyone complains that zealot heavy HT openings aren´t viable anymore (i guess splitting zealots vs mines ain´t possible huh?)
I do the Roach / Baneling / Speedling all in a lot, it is really easy for Terran to stop this all in now, all they do is make banshees, every Terran makes Banshees now, and it is extremely easy to stop this without even knowing it is coming. And it is easy to tell when Zerg is going to do this all in. Maybe a few months ago Terran was having a harder time to stop this all in( Maybe one of the ONLY good all ins Zerg has available...) ... and I kind of disagree with the Hellbat thing, they are too strong but I think the real problem is still with widowmines vs Zerg, in combination with Widowmines, the hellbats become a lot stronger, I do agree the hellbat all ins are stupid and too strong, but I think all together widowmines and hellbats need to be changed....
On December 05 2014 06:00 Clonester wrote: Back to the "Wisdom of the crowd". For me if any kind of that system would be enabled, it would lead to the following situation: One race does well because of whatever, to deep to write it up here: Now this race is terran
[edit]
Give this situation charismatic opinionmakers and blop, you will see one race falling down. That must not be terran, it will just be the race, that is doing well when this kind of balance system is started.
The "Wisdom of the Crowds" idea is designed specifically to deal with situations like this. Charismatic opinion-makers have power because of their status and loquacity and thus create problems in many democratic systems as well as all undemocratic ones, as you may well imagine.
Here is how it works:
A properly designed "wisdom" system strips away the individual to replace it with a collective anonymous decision. Just like a traditional democratic system which is designed to choose between two or more alternatives. You are excused to think these are the same thing, but they are not. A "wisdom" system is not designed to choose between alternatives per se, but to put a number/value/whatever on an unknown entity by a large anonymous reasonably well-informed crowd.
To be even more specific, democracy is choosing between a predetermined set of options, A, B or C (or more). Wisdom system are about setting a value on a specific parameter X. (In SCII this may very well be the damage done by widow mines say, or oracles or any other unit)
Thoughts?
Wisdom of the Crowds works for situations with defined questions and "right" answers that can gradually achieve agreement among the collective. It doesn't work for situations where there isn't a right answer that could be solved in a creative fashion, because the "crowd" will have a million different ideas and not form a mostly unanimous agreement on any of them.
It's particularly problematic for game design like StarCraft, which is competitive and balanced against three different races; any positive balance change will benefit roughly a third of the collective and hurt the other two-thirds, so you either get change paralyzation (see: US Congress) or the benefit will almost always swing towards whichever race is the most popular at the moment, IMO.
On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote: I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245 Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. Thanks
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;(
best wishes, Mamba
Looked on your bnet post, clicked profile, started giggling, than made a poker face, than almost bleached my eyes. Do me a favor learn to play ZvT at least on top diamond level than write articles which starts like "Dont even argue about it"
Second thing, if you can read, than please on ok WaKka ZvT guide... His easy build order can win you any ZvT time if its executed properly and he described every possible situal that can happen.
Saying that map imbalances are the problem are a little strange, considering how they all were one-sided imbalances.
For example, if the base matchup balance was 45-55 and we have maps with 40-60 and 50-50 type winrates, it just might be that the base imbalance is the issue and the maps themselves would otherwise be quite balanced with some favoring the other race a little. That's why I wonder how they specify that it's precisely the maps that cause the imbalance because fixing an imbalanced matchup just by making maps that favor the other race seems rather short-sighted and can mess the other matchups up.
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Blizzard stated Zerg is underpowered. Now we're searching for solutions to fix that. There's no reason to still stick to the "my race isn't overpowered mimimi"
Blizzard wants to fix Zerg over the map. I say fix Zerg with removing the hellbatbuff. It's better for the metagame overall.
I dont say Hellbats are OP. Terran overall is OP against Zerg. So why dont remove a unnecessary kind of All-In to nerf Terran?
Honestly hellbats feel more right with only the armory requirement, it makes no sense to require an extra upgrade for their transformation. I would be ok with a nerf to red-flame damage (and maybe put that nerfed damage amount back on blue-flame damage after the upgrade). Wouldn't that be ok?
It is pointless to disscuss a single unit balance vise. When the map-pool is more balanced and when it stays the same for more than one seasson, then you can really balance out the units into details. Until that happens you have way to much ground to cover and considering they are changing map-pool every seasson, they are doing very good job at balancing, considering the constant map changes.
IMHO what they should do, is create like 21 maps, as balances maps as possible, and just rotate them in and out each seasson. With a fixed map-pool like that, they would have much easier job at actually recognising balance issues caused by units.
I mean, imagine a compleatly flat map, no ramps no clifs, no nothing, just minerals and gas, othervise 0 obstacles. Suddenly you have a problem with Zerg being OP as hell, but you can't just fix their units, we just have to have nice balanced map pool first, so i really like what they are planing to do right now.
On December 05 2014 18:31 ZenithM wrote: Honestly hellbats feel more right with only the armory requirement, it makes no sense to require an extra upgrade for their transformation. I would be ok with a nerf to red-flame damage (and maybe put that nerfed damage amount back on blue-flame damage after the upgrade). Wouldn't that be ok?
prettysure theve already done that because of hellbat drops in the past XD
On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote: I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. a
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Also your argumentation has actually no arguments you just state the hellbat is op thats pretty much it. I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over, because you won´t be able to scout what zerg is doing and you need every hellion/unit against roach bane busts.
I would like to see a new mappool before changes to the balance are done tbh, though the 20 shield damage nerf to the mine is worth a try if everyone complains that zealot heavy HT openings aren´t viable anymore (i guess splitting zealots vs mines ain´t possible huh?)
I do the Roach / Baneling / Speedling all in a lot, it is really easy for Terran to stop this all in now, all they do is make banshees, every Terran makes Banshees now, and it is extremely easy to stop this without even knowing it is coming. And it is easy to tell when Zerg is going to do this all in. Maybe a few months ago Terran was having a harder time to stop this all in( Maybe one of the ONLY good all ins Zerg has available...) ... and I kind of disagree with the Hellbat thing, they are too strong but I think the real problem is still with widowmines vs Zerg, in combination with Widowmines, the hellbats become a lot stronger, I do agree the hellbat all ins are stupid and too strong, but I think all together widowmines and hellbats need to be changed....
So u are claiming that Roach/ Bane/ Ling allin is ez to stop, still u are doing it alot? I understand... Pls be real for the sake of the game and not for ur own. We can start discussing how hard it is to hold any allin that P, Z and T have in store...
I play zerg so not affected by the suggested change, but sounds very reasonable. Also approve in general of the approach of scaling back a too extreme change rather than removing it entirely or balancing it by something else. I equally approve of using the map pool to fine-tune balance.
If there was any change I could make, it would be reduce (remove) widow mine damage bonus vs shields. Great job Blizzard!
It was super annoying how the mine did EXACTLY enough damage to 1 shot a stalker or oracle while the AOE did exactly enough to 1 shot sentires, high templar and observers... Its still going to be pretty annoying that mines will still 1 shot probes and drones but not SCVs though.
On December 05 2014 19:47 paddyz wrote: If there was any change I could make, it would be reduce (remove) widow mine damage bonus vs shields. Great job Blizzard!
It was super annoying how the mine did EXACTLY enough damage to 1 shot a stalker or oracle while the AOE did exactly enough to 1 shot sentires, high templar and observers... Its still going to be pretty annoying that mines will still 1 shot probes and drones but not SCVs though.
the mine will still one shot oracles and stalkers, which is a good thing imo.
On December 05 2014 18:31 ZenithM wrote: Honestly hellbats feel more right with only the armory requirement, it makes no sense to require an extra upgrade for their transformation. I would be ok with a nerf to red-flame damage (and maybe put that nerfed damage amount back on blue-flame damage after the upgrade). Wouldn't that be ok?
prettysure theve already done that because of hellbat drops in the past XD
A bigger nerf, I meant. Because people seem to have troubles with regular hellbat pushes with bio. I think the push should exist but maybe should be less powerful or require more micro to be effective.
On December 05 2014 18:31 ZenithM wrote: Honestly hellbats feel more right with only the armory requirement, it makes no sense to require an extra upgrade for their transformation. I would be ok with a nerf to red-flame damage (and maybe put that nerfed damage amount back on blue-flame damage after the upgrade). Wouldn't that be ok?
prettysure theve already done that because of hellbat drops in the past XD
A bigger nerf, I meant. Because people seem to have troubles with regular hellbat pushes with bio. I think the push should exist but maybe should be less powerful or require more micro to be effective.
It's not really different from a roach/baneling or a 1-1 roach rush though. Watch yesterdays IEM group C matchups if you want to see a lot of shit games showcasing the power of Terran and Zerg rushing...
Huh, shouldn't there be some rushes in the game at least? And the hellbat+bio push isn't really a rush. Goddammit, it's on 2 bases and you don't really cut anything to get there. Since when did we start calling 2 base not-even-all-in builds rushes...
Do people really like the standard 3 CC before double eng bays, 4 hatch before pool kinda games? (And btw, I'm barely exaggerating ;D)
On December 05 2014 21:36 ZenithM wrote: Huh, shouldn't there be some rushes in the game at least? And the hellbat+bio push isn't really a rush. Goddammit, it's on 2 bases and you don't really cut anything to get there. Since when did we start calling 2 base not-even-all-in builds rushes...
Do people really like the standard 3 CC before double eng bays, 4 hatch before pool kinda games? (And btw, I'm barely exaggerating ;D)
well, I'm actually the one justifying the hellbat rush here though while you are thinking of ways to nerf it . Even if it is with other such builds. (makes me feel very dirty; even kind of cheap)
I definitely believe that all of those rushes are allin if you just scout them and react to them properly. Non of those transitions well, the banshee/hellbat probably best into Mech under the assumption that the zerg has opened ling/bling as he must for a standard game. I don't mind stuff like those in the game because you can actually scout them rather easily if you just invest a little into scouting it. But they don't make for good games and at least the 1-1 roach and the hellbat push both feel very lowskill.
On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote: I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. a
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Also your argumentation has actually no arguments you just state the hellbat is op thats pretty much it. I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over, because you won´t be able to scout what zerg is doing and you need every hellion/unit against roach bane busts.
I would like to see a new mappool before changes to the balance are done tbh, though the 20 shield damage nerf to the mine is worth a try if everyone complains that zealot heavy HT openings aren´t viable anymore (i guess splitting zealots vs mines ain´t possible huh?)
On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote: I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245 Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. Thanks
Balancechangesuggestion: Reverse the hellbatbuff
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;(
best wishes, Mamba
Looked on your bnet post, clicked profile, started giggling, than made a poker face, than almost bleached my eyes. Do me a favor learn to play ZvT at least on top diamond level than write articles which starts like "Dont even argue about it"
Second thing, if you can read, than please on ok WaKka ZvT guide... His easy build order can win you any ZvT time if its executed properly and he described every possible situal that can happen.
I agree with Eiltonn and Pharaphobia here. I dont understand how anyone can take this guy seriously. Worst thing is he is actually Masters on EU. This guy made a post on the German Forum some time ago saying Swarmhosts are mechanically demanding (!) . Whats kind of sad and frustrating is the fact that so many Zerg Players are jumping on the Train (ofc not without wanting to nerf Mines and Thors too) in a Thread that wants to start a discussion with the intro saying "Don´t argue about it".
On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote: I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. a
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Also your argumentation has actually no arguments you just state the hellbat is op thats pretty much it. I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over, because you won´t be able to scout what zerg is doing and you need every hellion/unit against roach bane busts.
I would like to see a new mappool before changes to the balance are done tbh, though the 20 shield damage nerf to the mine is worth a try if everyone complains that zealot heavy HT openings aren´t viable anymore (i guess splitting zealots vs mines ain´t possible huh?)
On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote: I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245 Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. Thanks
Balancechangesuggestion: Reverse the hellbatbuff
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps! YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!! Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer! Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;(
best wishes, Mamba
Looked on your bnet post, clicked profile, started giggling, than made a poker face, than almost bleached my eyes. Do me a favor learn to play ZvT at least on top diamond level than write articles which starts like "Dont even argue about it"
Second thing, if you can read, than please on ok WaKka ZvT guide... His easy build order can win you any ZvT time if its executed properly and he described every possible situal that can happen.
I agree with Eiltonn and Pharaphobia here. I dont understand how anyone can take this guy seriously. Worst thing is he is actually Masters on EU. This guy made a post on the German Forum some time ago saying Swarmhosts are mechanically demanding (!) . Whats kind of sad and frustrating is the fact that so many Zerg Players are jumping on the Train (ofc not without wanting to nerf Mines and Thors too) in a Thread that wants to start a discussion with the intro saying "Don´t argue about it".
Swarm Host play is mechanically demanding. Not as much the swarm hosts themselve, but everything around them. You need to macro so fucking well when going swarm hosts because you need creep, you need a million statics, for the millions of statics you need a million of drones for which you need to be on point with your injects. On 90% of the maps you have to mirror the opponents movement with your swarm hosts and their supporting air units, else a Protoss just gets to have fun cleaning up base after base with their favorite blinkateers while building up a huge Protoss Empire with a Golden Armarda behind. All the while you need to be on top of harassment, otherwise a single Warp Prism and all your tech is gone to throw away mineral units.
People just don't realize this because none of those things is an impressive mechanic on its own, but keeping all this shit going and dodgin bullet after bullet is one of the toughest zerg styles to play. Given, all of that only becomes hard if your opponent isn't clueless about how to fight vs Swarm Host styles, in such a scenario you can really just set and forget and wait until the 100th zealot and the 20th Archon has died to locust waves.
- Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote: - Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
I play RoachMuta against Mech with a good Winrate. I dont even play Swarmhost! Actually i hate them. I rather play aggressiv styles. But i really respect players like Snute/Stephano etc. going for Swarmhosts, because I thibk it's really hard.
I practised Swarmhost a bit in the past. I stopped to practise them because of 2 reasons 1. it was to hard for me, and it would have took me to long to be able to play them good enough. 2. Also I dont want to spend that much time in practising something which doesn't make fun.
I don't think many Zergs enjoy playing SH tbh, they just do it because they feel they have to.
Edit: Ok this post was way too kind, so I'm going to add this: And Zergs who like to play SHs other than in ZvZ deserve to be balancefucked by Blizzard ;D
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Blizzard stated Zerg is underpowered. Now we're searching for solutions to fix that. There's no reason to still stick to the "my race isn't overpowered mimimi"
Blizzard wants to fix Zerg over the map. I say fix Zerg with removing the hellbatbuff. It's better for the metagame overall.
I dont say Hellbats are OP. Terran overall is OP against Zerg. So why dont remove a unnecessary kind of All-In to nerf Terran?
The OP reads "zerg is slighty underperforming" but sure lets translate that to Zerg is underpowered. Did you know Blizzard also thinks the Ultralisk is good vs Marauders and weak vs Banshees? (check it out http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/ultralisk) so sure anything Blizzard says becomes an undeniable truth i guess :D
The thing is I dont want to say Terran is balanced or OP. I am of the opinion that i (and probably most people here) dont know enough about this game to judge on that (yet everyone does, funny huh?). So maybe we could wait for a new map pool before we tackle the incredible imbalance in TvZ.
Another thing i really want to mention since forever probably: arguing about balance with winrates being the only argument is the most stupid thing ever. If there are 3 godlike players from a certain race the winrate will be skewed. Also if the meta currently favors one race and the others have to develop an answer to keep up (something what happened quite frequently in brood war from what i heard?) winrates will be skewed. So we should consider other things as well.
On December 05 2014 05:52 Eiltonn wrote: I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over
Mmh ForGG managed to win DreamHack Winter by doing exactly that
I would say he won despite not by doing that :D ForGG didnt lose his hellions though so they could grant him the map vision he lost with his reapers. Besides that Life didnt abuse the reaper loss by baneling all inning him all the time. Probably because he was of the opinion that if he could handle Taeja in a macro game he could handle ForGG as well.
The OP reads "zerg is slighty underperforming" but sure lets translate that to Zerg is underpowered. Did you know Blizzard also thinks the Ultralisk is good vs Marauders and weak vs Banshees? (check it out http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/ultralisk) so sure anything Blizzard says becomes an undeniable truth i guess :D
Are you serious? Because i can't take that serious...
On December 04 2014 03:44 stuchiu wrote: So let me get this straight. After the Blink Toss era, Terran whined enough that they got both nerfs and godly maps.
Then Toss whined enough that they have now realized that maps are too godlike for Terran and are now considering nerfing mines.
And all this time, Zerg has been literally upheld by 3 players (soO/Solar/Life) all year and they get nothing.
What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs.
I've done quite a bit of research on the topic... and my explanation is this: David Kim and his balance team is best with Zerg, and worst with Terran.
Therefore, Terran overall, has had the most months where it was dominant in terms of balance than any other race. And this is simply because the Blizzard balance teams trust their own internal testing more than anything else, and therefore in the LOTV alpha, we saw Terran massively overpowered, just like they were in the WOL and HOTS Beta, because they suck at Terran. So they have to compensate for their own internal testing by making Terran incredibly powerful.
Pretty sure they make their balance changes based on PRO Feedback.
But anyway it wouldn't surprise me, that they have the least strong balance team playing terran, simply because it is the mechanically most demanding race but THEN it unveils its full strength. That is why 14hrs/day players like the korean pros have great results whereas we don't hear surprises like they are possible with toss/zerg from the NA/EU side of things (Naniwa, Stephano etc.) - I mean we never heard of a foreigner Terran that was consistantly good enough to beat Koreans and surprise. Sure we have QXC, Thorzain, Morrow.... but they are not as successful as the players mentioned above.
Therefore the whole whining from the community doesn't matter at all. Because it clearly shows the game is balanced around what is the absolute limit of playing it (AKA Korean Pros) and not our opinion - which is good. As it will never be balanced beyond that anyways. Annoying for those who play terran and see no foreigner Terran ever rise consistantly but gettling lots of trash-talk in forums PLUS always having the feeling of having to do more for a win then the opponent (if race is != terran), which again is because it is mechanically more demanding and also rewarding.
And therefore Blizzard will change things again and again, until the balance is (based on their glorious 50% winrate system) fine. But as long as the races are so different and noone seems to understand how hard it is actually to win with the other race, the wining, complaining and "imba" shouting will continue. Because the terran will always say: other races are easier to play (pointing out that less mechanics are needed for the win) the protoss will always be like "the others only need to spam units they lose, while we have to micro a lot" because protoss has less, but stronger units with spells and "tricks" (blink) and zerg... well they complain about other things like WM, medivac, mule... whatever vs terran and forcefields vs toss.
and to the guy who mentioned, that the zerg race in 2014 was only able to win because of 3 or 4 players, I wonder if you saw the first half of 2014, where there was only ONE Terran that actually made it possible to win, that there were only protoss and zerg wins, that there were thousands of PvP and ZvZ but no TvT... there were some lesser protosses/zergs that consistantly beat some of the greatest terrans out of GSL down to Code B. There was a MASSIVE imbalance the first half of the year, knocking out almost all Terrans before the RO16 (or 32?) in Code S. So far I enjoy that there is more terran now again. Even the TvT which is definately the best mirror. Back and forth and not only roach vs roach or cheese vs cheese or mass some units and have one final fight.
I like it because the constant smackdown of each other during a map is great to watch and doesn't always rely on one simple trick.
But then... back to topic: I like the changes made to the WM, hope it does something but not too much. Protoss can play fast expand/greedy very safe, even skipping some units in the beginning. Making a XvP interesting from the very first minutes must be the key. Before June a TvP wasn't interesting before minute 9, so you could watch something different. And some of the fights then took 10 secs and the game was over. I like it to be more aggressive, like every player trying to constantly trade, and trying to gain advantages. Lets see if that happens with LOTV again
On December 04 2014 03:44 stuchiu wrote: So let me get this straight. After the Blink Toss era, Terran whined enough that they got both nerfs and godly maps.
Then Toss whined enough that they have now realized that maps are too godlike for Terran and are now considering nerfing mines.
And all this time, Zerg has been literally upheld by 3 players (soO/Solar/Life) all year and they get nothing.
What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs.
Because all Terrans were banned or resignated to whine by the end of WOL, Zerg players even called terran things imba when the great days of Brood Lord Winfestor were at its "best". So whining although winning everyithing. But I guess that was for every race, Gom TvT - there were Terrans whining, 2014 there were Protosses whining. Huk pointing out that the biggest challenge with terran is, to choose with which unit you want to win. What he didn't say in his tweet (possibly ran out of character, a polite Canadian as he is, he for sure wointed to point that out) is, that as protoss he didn't even HAVE to choose in the better part of 2014, because blink-allins worked just fine
LOTV kind of sucks for HOTS... Blizzard isn't going to make big changes that change dynamic they're just going to be making small nudges and save the big stuff for the 40$ price sticker.
Sorry Protoss fans but watching someone convert all their minerals into zealots and all their gas into blah blah has always been very uninspiring to me.
On December 04 2014 04:20 Promised_pain wrote: "We’re seeing that Terran looks slightly stronger than the other two races, and Zerg is underperforming slightly in both matchups."
TvP Patch. Ok, makes sense.
I have seen tons of such posts from Blizzard, stating Terran is undeperforming but things that were changed did not adress this issue. Like "Terran is undperforming in lategame" change was vision range of Mothercore to make Blink Allins less effective. Or they made the orbital faster or something like that. If they have the feeling that Zerg is underperforming right now (I think so too) they will make changes, just like they did (after more then half a year) with terran. Relax. Also Lotv coming
On December 06 2014 07:08 Gamegene wrote: LOTV kind of sucks for HOTS... Blizzard isn't going to make big changes that change dynamic they're just going to be making small nudges and save the big stuff for the 40$ price sticker.
Sorry Protoss fans but watching someone convert all their minerals into zealots and all their gas into blah blah has always been very uninspiring to me.
Yeah I kinda feel the format of having an RTS game with two expansions spanned over several years has been detrimental towards balancing sc2. Always felt like getting things right was never heavily prioritized as their will be another expansion coming in x years that will shake the game up. I understand why ActiBlizz have done it from a business point of view, but looking at it as a gamer it has not been the best model quite honestly. Miss the old days when a game would come out followed by its expansion the next year - done job. Then they would be off designing the next game.
Finally i can start playing sc2 after this patch again, i just stopped because of the mine, its just not fun to play against. You cant be creative you cant even do anything remotely wrong because 1 slip is insta GG. from early to late, you need to be on full allert at all time, spread your bases thin because you need to stay on equall eco (wich was near impossible).
Just for all the zergs out there, they obviously stated they noticed how zergs are a little bit less strong. they didnt introduce any racial changes because the % arent yet in favour of that. So i assume the maps will in every matchup be more zerg favoured, okayish for protoss, and bad for terran. Because the race has been so dominant lately.
Terran QQ is inevitable because thats the nature of the beast. If you cant outmultitask/outplay him at the same time you cant win, but if you can you win, you win by a huge margin ussually (because you can actually enter that unlimited potential of MMM)
Dont forget, terran units are most cost efficient because of mule and fast reproduction costs, so if you slip up your first engage you can (if you are better at macro and micro) always get back. Protoss can't lose any units early game because it severly weakens there defence wich they need to have the money to tech up. And zerg needs to choose wheter they go eco or units thus hurting themselves every time they need to defend or attack.
I feel with this slight widow mine nerf, it finally got to that sweet spot, where it can do economic damage, but isnt an all round, harrass+offensive unit in pvt, but more an actuall support/harrass unit.
Not dictating the game anymore, nor be a huge threat, atleast with correct micro from the toss. Because blasting to red still means you need to pull back to either regen shields or try to soak up more mine shots. I also feel archons early game became a bit more accessible because of it even if its just 10 damage to shields less, the unit mainly consists out of shields.
So i assume the maps will in every matchup be more zerg favoured, okayish for protoss, and bad for terran
The maps shouldn't be in zerg's favor, there should just be less one-sided ones. They should just remove maps like Nimbus or Catallena with abmyssal winrates and have more balanced maps like Overgrowth or KSS around. Then they can also do slightly favored ones like Merry Go Round or Frost and everyone should be happy.
So i assume the maps will in every matchup be more zerg favoured, okayish for protoss, and bad for terran
The maps shouldn't be in zerg's favor, there should just be less one-sided ones. They should just remove maps like Nimbus or Catallena with abmyssal winrates and have more balanced maps like Overgrowth or KSS around. Then they can also do slightly favored ones like Merry Go Round or Frost and everyone should be happy.
On December 04 2014 03:23 OtherWorld wrote: FFS Blizzard when will you learn that changing two variables at the same bad is not a good idea... Start by changing the map pool, then see if the imbalance persists. If it does, try your changes.
Well same can be said for when they added this change. Taking it out again would simply reiterate your point, they shouldn't have changed this along with other things.
Glad to see blizzard listening to the majority of the player base and taking feedback. I feel starcraft has came a long way and its continuing to go in the right direction.
On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote: - Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
Properly controlling a Swarm Host based game -IS- hard.
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Blizzard stated Zerg is underpowered. Now we're searching for solutions to fix that. There's no reason to still stick to the "my race isn't overpowered mimimi"
Blizzard wants to fix Zerg over the map. I say fix Zerg with removing the hellbatbuff. It's better for the metagame overall.
I dont say Hellbats are OP. Terran overall is OP against Zerg. So why dont remove a unnecessary kind of All-In to nerf Terran?
The OP reads "zerg is slighty underperforming" but sure lets translate that to Zerg is underpowered. Did you know Blizzard also thinks the Ultralisk is good vs Marauders and weak vs Banshees? (check it out http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/ultralisk) so sure anything Blizzard says becomes an undeniable truth i guess :D
"Anti-armored ground units like Marauders can also crack through Ultralisks' reinforced carapaces as long as they can keep the Ultralisk at range by kiting it with Stimpack's movement speed increase" = "Ultralisk is good vs Marauders"? Weird interpretation.
On December 06 2014 09:24 ooDi wrote: nuuuuuuu no one is gonna use mines in tvp anymore
If Terrans don't have a super OP unit they won't use it right ? Wm still a strong unit for his ridiculous prize, even without the AOE the unit worth the cost. So -20shield doesn't kill the unit at all in TvP.
On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote: - Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
Properly controlling a Swarm Host based game -IS- hard.
and so is properly controlling a lot of other unit comps, what is the point of your post?
On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote: - Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
Properly controlling a Swarm Host based game -IS- hard.
and so is properly controlling a lot of other unit comps, what is the point of your post?
Apparantly a number of people think Swarm Host are set and forget.
They DEMAND more control that the infamous PProtoss 1a2ttttttt ball.
On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote: - Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
Properly controlling a Swarm Host based game -IS- hard.
and so is properly controlling a lot of other unit comps, what is the point of your post?
Apparantly a number of people think Swarm Host are set and forget.
They DEMAND more control that the infamous PProtoss 1a2ttttttt ball.
SH not set and forget?? :o So THAT'S why I am still in gold.... I knew there was a piece missing!
So i assume the maps will in every matchup be more zerg favoured, okayish for protoss, and bad for terran
The maps shouldn't be in zerg's favor, there should just be less one-sided ones. They should just remove maps like Nimbus or Catallena with abmyssal winrates and have more balanced maps like Overgrowth or KSS around. Then they can also do slightly favored ones like Merry Go Round or Frost and everyone should be happy.
I really don't think that will help zerg enough, but we'll see.
On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote: - Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
Properly controlling a Swarm Host based game -IS- hard.
and so is properly controlling a lot of other unit comps, what is the point of your post?
Apparantly a number of people think Swarm Host are set and forget.
They DEMAND more control that the infamous PProtoss 1a2ttttttt ball.
Good luck winning a game by 1-a-ing a deathball. It won't work above gold.
Zerg is underpowert so why nerving widow mine vs shilds makes no sense at all. yes Startale life is world Champion but most of his tactics is all in. Other think is is one zerg player and all other cant do it waht he do. Most people say wait with balance patch to legacy of the void. But it need long time to legacy of the void.
On December 07 2014 03:03 Clonester wrote: You remember the time of 2 Code S Terrans?
Blizzard made Hydras attack faster.
Thats how it works there.
You mean patch 2.1 with +10% attack speed for hydras? The same patch where terrans got free ghost energy upgrade and mine damage doubled vs shields? The same patch where protoss got MSC vision down from 14 to 9 and time warp energy cost up from 75 to 100?
Its so funny how everyone cares only about how many times a certain race won a tournament and no one cares how about Ro4 or 2nd place finishers. Hell if Maru had beaten Classic in GSL S2 and then won vs soO, everyone would say Terran was OP even back then, thats how silly it is. With the exception of Red Bull: D.C. and WCS EU (the tournament formerly dominated by korean Protosses, in S3 by korean Terrans) I dont see any tournament after the last patch that was dominated by Terrans. And although i agree that things arent okay now, im absolutely sure that the main reason is the map pool and im also very happy about the TvP change. Reducing the WM splash back to that useless garbage it used to be in TvZ would be a joke (im lookin at you 70+ baneling a-moves).
KeSPA cup was dominated by Protoss and the only non-protoss player there who gave them a run for their money was Flash. (im not surprised since most of the players were protoss)
DH Moscow - MMA got to the finals by winning TvT, beating a mediocre protoss Patience 2:1 and then beating a foreigner and it also happened that a former GSL champion was on fire there (jjakji).
WCS AM S3 - Bomber was able to get to the finals the previous season when Terran was weaker so im not surprised that he won this time and that Polt was in the semis after a close fight with HerO and Heart got to the finals on the back of his godly TvZ?... whats weird about that? Id say a bunch of ppl had been expecting Bomber, Polt and Taeja to be the top three of WCS AM every season this year no matter what kind of balance mess we were in at the start of this year.
Red Bull: Detroit - Polt and Taeja were by far the most accomplished players there.
IEM Toronto - Is it even possible to complain when there was Flash, Zest, Taeja and Life in the top 4?
GSL S3 - One of the best Terrans in the world has won after two seasons without Terrans in GSL. Big deal.
Blizzcon - Zerg won so according to the logic in this thread everythings okay right? Im sure that if Solar or TRUE had started to travel the world earlier this year they would have been in the top 16 as well and we wouldnt have only Life and soO there. (Id say that Hyun and Jaedong were in a pretty bad shape)
Red Bull: D.C. - Yes that one tournament dominated by Terrans..
So yes I think theres a room for improvement. I would change the map pool to something non-terran favored. Id go through with the Widow mine change in TvP right after and probably try to buff Zerg in some way without nerfing Terran to sh*t again.
Anyone claiming that we are in the same situation as GomTvT, BL-Infestor or Blink era is simply talking non-sense and is butthurt cuz his race hasnt won the last premier tournament. The whole mindset of "nerf Terran so my race is stronger" is dumb IMO. Terran also hasnt been buffed by nerfing P or Z (with the exception of MSC nerfs which helped the game immensely and those stats were silly in the first place - 14 vision range wtf?) but by improving Terran units or upgrades. I think Blizzard should do the same with Zerg if needed but I would definitely wait for the new map pool and GSL qualifiers to see how things go.
On December 04 2014 03:23 OtherWorld wrote: FFS Blizzard when will you learn that changing two variables at the same bad is not a good idea... Start by changing the map pool, then see if the imbalance persists. If it does, try your changes.
Well same can be said for when they added this change. Taking it out again would simply reiterate your point, they shouldn't have changed this along with other things.
Glad to see blizzard listening to the majority of the player base and taking feedback. I feel starcraft has came a long way and its continuing to go in the right direction.
I beg to differ. All the balance patches made the game incredibly stale, boring and predictable. There are slight variations in opening build orders to maybe push some advantage, but in the end most games end up the same.
Terran, for instance, has been doing combinations of MMM for more than four years now and Protoss immortal all-ins and colossus plays haven't changed all that much either. Even Zerg has been stuck on ling-muta-bane for a long time, be it as their main strategy or as a transition into something else. I really feel that SC2 was more interesting in beta and in the first year after launch. Units were way crazier, and some allowed for some very fun games, both to watch and to play.
Maps can even things out a bit, but all races still have tech trees that are completely unviable, regardless of which map players play on. This is just not fun. People want to be able to build hydralisks, carriers and siege tanks, and be able to actually win games with them.
I really hope that Blizzard goes ahead with the 12 worker change and the other plans they've got with Legacy of the Void. It will reset the whole metagame, and the progamers will probably not be amused, but Blizzard is not responsible for the fact that some people's livelihoods depend solely on one of their video games. Sales figures matter a whole lot more than whether or not MC rakes in another few thousand dollars worth of price money. It will make the game feel new and fresh, and casual players will be able to get into action a whole lot faster.
On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote: - Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
Properly controlling a Swarm Host based game -IS- hard.
and so is properly controlling a lot of other unit comps, what is the point of your post?
Apparantly a number of people think Swarm Host are set and forget.
They DEMAND more control that the infamous PProtoss 1a2ttttttt ball.
Zerg = Constant Creep Spread, Inject, Swarm Host Burrow, Unburrow, Reposition Protoss = Macro requires switching screens ( can't just hotkey gateways and produce them while looking at fighting screen), use of constant spells Terran = Same screen macro, Press T for stim, Press A to attack
On December 06 2014 22:50 SC2Toastie wrote: Apparantly a number of people think Swarm Host are set and forget.
They DEMAND more control that the infamous PProtoss 1a2ttttttt ball.
#FirstWorldpatchZergProblems
The thing is about Swarm Hosts is that their range and cool down allows them to always evade armies on creep; If they're constantly doing hit and runs with burrow and reburrow you can't actually catch the damn things unless you have boosted medivacs because you HAVE to waste time killing the locusts (otherwise your army will be torn to shreds).
Yeah it does take a lot more than just holding down 2 buttons, but that's a lot of things in StarCraft; doesn't really excuse the fact that Swarm Hosts allow players to get kills / large space control / pose a constant threat with minimal risk and vulnerability (assuming the player is competent enough to unburrow each time the locust wave goes out).
If Static Defense didn't exist in the game then maybe there'd be more merit to the "Swarm Hosts are hard " whine lol.
On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote: - Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
Properly controlling a Swarm Host based game -IS- hard.
and so is properly controlling a lot of other unit comps, what is the point of your post?
Apparantly a number of people think Swarm Host are set and forget.
They DEMAND more control that the infamous PProtoss 1a2ttttttt ball.
Zerg = Constant Creep Spread, Inject, Swarm Host Burrow, Unburrow, Reposition Protoss = Macro requires switching screens ( can't just hotkey gateways and produce them while looking at fighting screen), use of constant spells Terran = Same screen macro, Press T for stim, Press A to attack
This is very funny :D Can we keep it real for a change?
Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups.
On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote: - Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
Properly controlling a Swarm Host based game -IS- hard.
and so is properly controlling a lot of other unit comps, what is the point of your post?
Apparantly a number of people think Swarm Host are set and forget.
They DEMAND more control that the infamous PProtoss 1a2ttttttt ball.
Zerg = Constant Creep Spread, Inject, Swarm Host Burrow, Unburrow, Reposition Protoss = Macro requires switching screens ( can't just hotkey gateways and produce them while looking at fighting screen), use of constant spells Terran = Same screen macro, Press T for stim, Press A to attack
On December 06 2014 22:50 SC2Toastie wrote: Apparantly a number of people think Swarm Host are set and forget.
They DEMAND more control that the infamous PProtoss 1a2ttttttt ball.
#FirstWorldpatchZergProblems
The thing is about Swarm Hosts is that their range and cool down allows them to always evade armies on creep; If they're constantly doing hit and runs with burrow and reburrow you can't actually catch the damn things unless you have boosted medivacs because you HAVE to waste time killing the locusts (otherwise your army will be torn to shreds).
Yeah it does take a lot more than just holding down 2 buttons, but that's a lot of things in StarCraft; doesn't really excuse the fact that Swarm Hosts allow players to get kills / large space control / pose a constant threat with minimal risk and vulnerability (assuming the player is competent enough to unburrow each time the locust wave goes out).
If Static Defense didn't exist in the game then maybe there'd be more merit to the "Swarm Hosts are hard " whine lol.
This isn't whine, and you are oversimplifying the Swarm Host. As long as you have full vision, Hosts are really strong. But Terran and Protoss can easily erase Creep against Swarmhost which makes positioning really hard. Combine that with going multipronged and the Swarm Host player has to constantly scramble to hold his bases and army together. There's a lot of tiny decisions and moves going on that are hard to spot. Try to find a replay of Zerg vs P/T going Swarm Host, watch in First Person. You'll see how choked you can feel.
Also, I don't know what the patchzerg comment means.
On December 07 2014 09:16 keglu wrote: Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups.
Aligulac lumps too many variables together to be worthwhile. You need to narrow it down to premiere tournament matches and the winrates will skew a lot farther.
man... why is having 1 race win more than others, bad? we have to let pro's come up with new ways to beat 'OP' stuff. why blizzard keep patching shit, wtf
On December 07 2014 09:16 keglu wrote: Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups.
Aligulac lumps too many variables together to be worthwhile. You need to narrow it down to premiere tournament matches and the winrates will skew a lot farther.
Aligulac is fine, but aligualc =/= the state of balance. There's tons of quantitative and qualitative balance indicators around and aligulac is a good one amongst them. As you say, singling out Premiers is another good balance indicator - and especially in ZvT quite balanced lately I think. Zerg has been losing a little more against Protoss than Terran in many tournaments lately. None of those things are very long trends or very strongly out of place and thus not worth a balance change. Blizzard draws a very reasonable picture of zerg matchups in my opinion and once the <45% winrate maps in ZvX are gone - Catallena, Deadwing, Foxtrot, Nimbus - Zerg could even start to dominate slightly with the right maps.
It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
Imho, BW was more balanced but still had some pretty big imbalances. The way the archon worked vs zerg, especially late game when you had tons and maybe even dark archons as well. (the game manual actually says zerglings are the counter to archons)
If not for the buggy RNG AI of the reaver it would be super imba. (which is why they didn't put it in sc2, probably too hard to recreate that if at all).
And then there were a bunch of useless upgrades, and units that rarely if ever saw any play. Scouts, queens, infested terrans, valkyries and devours etc.
And at the really top level, some units were almost obsoleted by skill, such as scourges or lurkers in small numbers.
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster.
sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol.
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
while some of those people are obviously biased ( everyone who doesnt random is to some degree) it doesnt take a genius to see these maps are terran favoured, they were designed to be so becuase they were made for a time when terran was struggling so hard only 2 Ts made code s. prettymuch common sense
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster.
sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol.
the widowmine patch is mainly because there is no other way to open in PvT other than collosus that is as viable, and Ht openings really only work as a surprise using one tournament as example is just daft, heck i could cherrypick too and point out marines kings run where he went 11-6 against protosses including parting zest and hero which are some of the strongest protosses in the world despite marinekings resutls from 2014 being prettymuch non-existant
its almost as stupid as my basing ZvT off just inno vs so0 gsl finals despite so0 playing nowhere near his best in that series
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster.
sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol.
Zest and sOs combined vs MK and sky high won a total of 0 macro games iirc. It was allin after allin from 2 of the top 4 Protoss (the other 2 bring cj hero and rain). The games they tried to play macro. They lost. It is telling when the 2 best protoss in the world was not confident of playing macro games against MK and skyhigh whom I do not think many would put as top 10 terran right now. (Bogus, Taeja, flash, bomber, cure, ty, maru etc).
The top protosses are resorting to trickery rather than playing the game straight up now.
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster.
sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol.
Don't stick your head in the sand.
Since the WM patch (June 5), Terran have won 12 premier tournaments. sOs's win today makes for a total of 4 Protoss premier tournament victories. Zerg has five. If you want to extend it out to finalists, it supports the trend even more: 21 Terrans, 9 Protoss, 12 Zerg. In DreamHack Winter, Bunny was the only Terran to lose out of group stage, no other Terran lost a series to a Protoss in the entire tournament, and no Terran lost a series in the finals to a non-Terran except Taeja in a 3-2 vs Life. Even if you look at the tournaments that spanned pre- and post-2.1.3 (WCS AM and EU), you can see Terran dominate hard in the groups played post-patch in AM and split evenly in EU.
Protoss used to win everything, yes, and that was bad, but don't claim that Protoss are still going around winning everything. They're not. It's a combination of both the maps and the WM and all of the evidence supports it.
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster.
sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol.
Zest and sOs combined vs MK and sky high won a total of 0 macro games iirc. It was allin after allin from 2 of the top 4 Protoss (the other 2 bring cj hero and rain). The games they tried to play macro. They lost. It is telling when the 2 best protoss in the world was not confident of playing macro games against MK and skyhigh whom I do not think many would put as top 10 terran right now. (Bogus, Taeja, flash, bomber, cure, ty, maru etc).
The top protosses are resorting to trickery rather than playing the game straight up now.
Woaaah... I didn't see Zest, so I withhold my judgment for that series. But sOs won 3 games in which he opened pretty standard macro against MK. Also the game vs skyhigh on KSS was pretty standard, just that skyhigh fell over against a proxied first gate (which sadly isn't a huge commitment for Protoss). On Catallena and Foxtrot MarineKing died to rather simple pokes, sOs just choose to actually kill MK rather than tech up, but at no point did he rely on cheesish or allinish moves. Even if his killmoves had failed, he would have still been in a balanced position for a standard game. And on Nimbus he played a very macro-oriented phoenix/Colossus game.
Also it's sOs. The games he showcased were pretty defensive in comparison to his usual style. ^^
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster.
sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol.
Zest and sOs combined vs MK and sky high won a total of 0 macro games iirc. It was allin after allin from 2 of the top 4 Protoss (the other 2 bring cj hero and rain). The games they tried to play macro. They lost. It is telling when the 2 best protoss in the world was not confident of playing macro games against MK and skyhigh whom I do not think many would put as top 10 terran right now. (Bogus, Taeja, flash, bomber, cure, ty, maru etc).
The top protosses are resorting to trickery rather than playing the game straight up now.
it doesn't matter how the games are won, a victory is a victory. if a race wins many of their games with allins it's often a result of the metagame, because the other race is forced to play greedy to have a chance at competing in a macrogame. terrans know that protoss has strong allins but despite that they stick to their builds and try to hold the allins with them. are they doing it because they like losing? no, they do it because they can't play much more safe if they want to compete with protoss in a macrogame. you can't just look at the earlygame or the mid/lategame in a vacuum. every stage of the game is influenced by the other stages.
it doesn't matter how the games are won, a victory is a victory.
Don't agree with this assessment at all Good Protoss players can always take tournaments off the other two races whatever the balance state is at, because they can win by usage of surperior mindgames and well executed gambles. Zerg can do this too, to a lesser degree and Terran hardly can do any of this at all. So if you balance around statistics alone, you'd end up with Terran being stronger in macro games, then Zerg, then Protoss. Where what should be balanced in reality is so that all the races have the option to play macro AND mindgame orientated play. This is not the state we're at as of now, but whatever the case, you cannot look at number of wins alone.
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster.
sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol.
Zest and sOs combined vs MK and sky high won a total of 0 macro games iirc. It was allin after allin from 2 of the top 4 Protoss (the other 2 bring cj hero and rain). The games they tried to play macro. They lost. It is telling when the 2 best protoss in the world was not confident of playing macro games against MK and skyhigh whom I do not think many would put as top 10 terran right now. (Bogus, Taeja, flash, bomber, cure, ty, maru etc).
The top protosses are resorting to trickery rather than playing the game straight up now.
Woaaah... I didn't see Zest, so I withhold my judgment for that series. But sOs won 3 games in which he opened pretty standard macro against MK. Also the game vs skyhigh on KSS was pretty standard, just that skyhigh fell over against a proxied first gate (which sadly isn't a huge commitment for Protoss). On Catallena and Foxtrot MarineKing died to rather simple pokes, sOs just choose to actually kill MK rather than tech up, but at no point did he rely on cheesish or allinish moves. Even if his killmoves had failed, he would have still been in a balanced position for a standard game. And on Nimbus he played a very macro-oriented phoenix/Colossus game.
Also it's sOs. The games he showcased were pretty defensive in comparison to his usual style. ^^
I wouldn't call those games macro...
He proxied a Gateway in one game and a Stargate in another. And the fast Zealot/Stalker/MsC pressure is actually bad against players who react correctly and puts you behind economically. The casters were just as amazed as I was that it actually worked like it did.
it doesn't matter how the games are won, a victory is a victory.
Don't agree with this assessment at all Good Protoss players can always take tournaments off the other two races whatever the balance state is at, because they can win by usage of surperior mindgames and well executed gambles. Zerg can do this too, to a lesser degree and Terran hardly can do any of this at all. So if you balance around statistics alone, you'd end up with Terran being stronger in macro games, then Zerg, then Protoss. Where what should be balanced in reality is so that all the races have the option to play macro AND mindgame orientated play. This might be the state we're at as of now, but whatever the case, you cannot look at number of wins alone.
It's common knowledge that Protoss is weakest in the midgame so I don't know what you're talking about.
Also the fact that top Protosses are resorting to cheese/trickery to beat average players like Marine King and SkyHigh with no recent achievements to speak of is telling. You certainly can win this way, but you shouldn't HAVE to.
it doesn't matter how the games are won, a victory is a victory.
Don't agree with this assessment at all Good Protoss players can always take tournaments off the other two races whatever the balance state is at, because they can win by usage of surperior mindgames and well executed gambles. Zerg can do this too, to a lesser degree and Terran hardly can do any of this at all. So if you balance around statistics alone, you'd end up with Terran being stronger in macro games, then Zerg, then Protoss. Where what should be balanced in reality is so that all the races have the option to play macro AND mindgame orientated play. This might be the state we're at as of now, but whatever the case, you cannot look at number of wins alone.
Terran has more than enough "mindgames" against Zerg and against Terran though. Probably more than Zerg has against Terran. And they are mostly reasonably scoutable tricks happening between 7-12mins, not half techtrees sitting at the weirdest locations on the map.
And though winrate isn't everything, there's nothing wrong with Protoss having to be aggressive to win. If that makes top Protoss win enough (and not too much) against top Terrans than it is balanced. What you are talking about is a design matter and has nothing to do with balance.
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk. Also the casters are very biased these days. They keep saying that all maps are Terran friendly but in the end tournaments are still won by Zerg and Protoss players...Imagine if BroodWar balancing was managed by D.Kim...it would be a mess now.
Agreed. Protoss has no problems winning the premier tournaments. You can see the best Korean Protoss players are still winning the premier tournaments. It's a mistake for David Kim to nerf Terran. That will just lead to another era of PvsP which will just kill the game faster.
sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol.
Zest and sOs combined vs MK and sky high won a total of 0 macro games iirc. It was allin after allin from 2 of the top 4 Protoss (the other 2 bring cj hero and rain). The games they tried to play macro. They lost. It is telling when the 2 best protoss in the world was not confident of playing macro games against MK and skyhigh whom I do not think many would put as top 10 terran right now. (Bogus, Taeja, flash, bomber, cure, ty, maru etc).
The top protosses are resorting to trickery rather than playing the game straight up now.
Woaaah... I didn't see Zest, so I withhold my judgment for that series. But sOs won 3 games in which he opened pretty standard macro against MK. Also the game vs skyhigh on KSS was pretty standard, just that skyhigh fell over against a proxied first gate (which sadly isn't a huge commitment for Protoss). On Catallena and Foxtrot MarineKing died to rather simple pokes, sOs just choose to actually kill MK rather than tech up, but at no point did he rely on cheesish or allinish moves. Even if his killmoves had failed, he would have still been in a balanced position for a standard game. And on Nimbus he played a very macro-oriented phoenix/Colossus game.
Also it's sOs. The games he showcased were pretty defensive in comparison to his usual style. ^^
I wouldn't call those games macro...
He proxied a Gateway in one game and a Stargate in another. And the fast Zealot/Stalker/MsC pressure is actually bad against players who react correctly and puts you behind economically. The casters were just as amazed as I was that it actually worked like it did.
I didn't talk about the Stargate for a reason. That's 1 of 5 games, every player cheeses 1 of 5 games, that's not indicative of anything. That such pressure moves set you slightly behind economically if they fail doesn't stop the games from being macro games from sOs side. Every race does that kind of stuff, getting a few extra zerglings to try and kill a pylon, sending a zealot over to the zerg base, building 3reapers instead of one. If that kind of stuff is perfectly defended the opponent gets a tiny advantage. But you still have 48% winchance in a balanced game.
I'm not even really denying that sOs might (or might not, the matchup doesn't look that grim at all when certain players just sit back and defend well) have had to rely on a little bit of cheesy play in the matchup, but given that MK just rolled over to a chronoboosted gateway turns the chosen examples useless to showcase that. Still like the proposed change though. WMs main use in TvP seems to be for early worker harassment (unchanged), defense against single units like oracles (single damage unchanged, only tincy little bit less splash on the stalkerball when killing that stalker) and then to prevent options from Protoss. I don't think it really brings back Templar, but it may help a little.
On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote: - Tresher This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum. I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times. Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
_____________
My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple. Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS. Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that. You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
Properly controlling a Swarm Host based game -IS- hard.
and so is properly controlling a lot of other unit comps, what is the point of your post?
Apparantly a number of people think Swarm Host are set and forget.
They DEMAND more control that the infamous PProtoss 1a2ttttttt ball.
Zerg = Constant Creep Spread, Inject, Swarm Host Burrow, Unburrow, Reposition Protoss = Macro requires switching screens ( can't just hotkey gateways and produce them while looking at fighting screen), use of constant spells Terran = Same screen macro, Press T for stim, Press A to attack
Dude, are you even serious?
Yup. That's also the reason why my T is 3 division levels higher than my P or Z. P macro is just much more overwhelming and Z is just too frustrating to play. T is, stim and press A and win.
T is also the most forgiving race for beginners.
Over-prepared and built those extra bunkers (static defense)? Just salvage them.
Forgot to build depots and got supply stuck? Just call down the extra supply.
Forgot to scan / mule? Just save them for the gold base.
By FAR the easiest race to play, and I'm looking at objective factors.
On December 07 2014 09:16 keglu wrote: Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups.
its Aligulac. Aligulac. You dont ever cite Aligulac as data, it's the most flawed database that allows people to cherry-pick non-important matches to skew data.
On December 07 2014 09:16 keglu wrote: Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups.
its Aligulac. Aligulac. You dont ever cite Aligulac as data, it's the most flawed database that allows people to cherry-pick non-important matches to skew data.
Sorry, before your last post explaining current state of the game so clearly i did not have any better sources of information than Aligulac. Now with your post closing debate i'll be using your indisputable opinion as facts.
On December 07 2014 09:16 keglu wrote: Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups.
its Aligulac. Aligulac. You dont ever cite Aligulac as data, it's the most flawed database that allows people to cherry-pick non-important matches to skew data.
Sorry, before your last post explaining current state of the game so clearly i did not have any better sources of information than Aligulac. Now with your post closing debate i'll be using your indisputable opinion as facts.
Just forget about him, he's a competitive troll. And if you ever need a good laugh after a bad day, just read here his recent "balance suggestions" (lol).
On December 07 2014 21:56 xelnaga_empire wrote: sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol.
This is some mighty fine cherry picking. Did you know that Marineking was on a 13-game win streak vs Protoss prior to his semifinals vs Zest today? I'm not saying either race is OP or that there is even a significant balance issue, but surely you see the flaws in picking the champion and using his record to determine whether or not X is OP?
On December 07 2014 09:16 keglu wrote: Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups.
its Aligulac. Aligulac. You dont ever cite Aligulac as data, it's the most flawed database that allows people to cherry-pick non-important matches to skew data.
Sorry, before your last post explaining current state of the game so clearly i did not have any better sources of information than Aligulac. Now with your post closing debate i'll be using your indisputable opinion as facts.
Just forget about him, he's a competitive troll. And if you ever need a good laugh after a bad day, just read here his recent "balance suggestions" (lol).
I'm the troll? Says the biased Terran troll who writes the most ridiculous stuff.
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk.
Tod and Huk are the worst people for David Kim to listen to. Don't think you'll find two more biased players in the scene. He should ask Demuslim for feedback as he can be trusted.
so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
From my humble low-league opinion, zergs will be well developed in lotv like Terrans are in WoL and HotS. Many viable strategies even at tier1, more powerfull defencing tools, more ways to attack enemy and finaly ways to dictate the game.
Now every ZvT usually muta-bane-ling. Only rarely we can see something exotic like Swarm Host vs Terran with bio. That worked well for one or two games, then it goes again back to classic muta-ling-bane.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote: [...] first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. [...] just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. [...] now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
Yup, you're right. The stupidity is mind boggling.
On December 08 2014 13:43 Rollora wrote: PvP Finals at IEM. Hmm lets wait for the meta to evolve before balance patching anything?
Rain and hero are a level or 2 above the rest of the field. Maybe bomber comes close but the edge should go to rain. No flash, no Taeja, no innovation in the tournament.
there won't, or shouldn't, be another balance patch until after GSL/SPOTV season 1. using weekend tournaments as balance indicators isn't that great since not everyone goes to them, and even using WCS wasn't very good since EU and AM were more terran heavy, and GSL was more protoss/zerg heavy.
I really hope that they consider changing the map pool first before doing these balance changes. These two recent tournaments have shown that Protosses are catching up in the PvT meta.
On December 08 2014 13:43 Rollora wrote: PvP Finals at IEM. Hmm lets wait for the meta to evolve before balance patching anything?
Rain and hero are a level or 2 above the rest of the field. Maybe bomber comes close but the edge should go to rain. No flash, no Taeja, no innovation in the tournament.
On December 08 2014 13:43 Rollora wrote: PvP Finals at IEM. Hmm lets wait for the meta to evolve before balance patching anything?
Rain and hero are a level or 2 above the rest of the field. Maybe bomber comes close but the edge should go to rain. No flash, no Taeja, no innovation in the tournament.
Innovation lost to herO in the Hot6 Cup
But Innovation eventually beat herO and qualified for the RO8
On December 07 2014 20:28 p14c wrote: It's not surprising since D. Kim gets his "pro-feedback" from people like Tod and Huk.
Tod and Huk are the worst people for David Kim to listen to. Don't think you'll find two more biased players in the scene. He should ask Demuslim for feedback as he can be trusted.
On December 08 2014 12:57 meenamjah wrote: [...] first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. [...] just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. [...] now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
Yup, you're right. The stupidity is mind boggling.
the nerf to mine shiled damage is tiny and hasnt even goen through yet, not to mention blizzards already stated there holding off and doing anything but that untill after the map pool has changed to less T favoured? its like some people havent even read the balance update
By looking at the premiere Tournaments from September to now (11 Tournaments i think) I believe we can say the game has good balance bar the maps. (4 zerg wins, 4 Protoss wins and 3 Terran wins)
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
On December 08 2014 20:06 Gwavajuice wrote: but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least...
Wait what?? I need to actually try to DO something, or have some minimum level of information before calling people idiots??? :o My entire lifestyle on internet is in shambles! Surely you are joking....
On December 07 2014 09:16 keglu wrote: Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups.
its Aligulac. Aligulac. You dont ever cite Aligulac as data, it's the most flawed database that allows people to cherry-pick non-important matches to skew data.
Sorry, before your last post explaining current state of the game so clearly i did not have any better sources of information than Aligulac. Now with your post closing debate i'll be using your indisputable opinion as facts.
Just forget about him, he's a competitive troll. And if you ever need a good laugh after a bad day, just read here his recent "balance suggestions" (lol).
I'm the troll? Says the biased Terran troll who writes the most ridiculous stuff.
On December 08 2014 15:29 hansonslee wrote: I really hope that they consider changing the map pool first before doing these balance changes. These two recent tournaments have shown that Protosses are catching up in the PvT meta.
Have they really though? Looking at the tournaments where Terran has done well in recently, we either dont see top tier Protoss (Parting / sOs / herO / Classic / Zest / ect) or those Protoss are knocked out by Zerg. We don't actually see T beating top tier P very often, we just haven't seen the top tier P in foreign tournaments lately.
On December 08 2014 13:43 Rollora wrote: PvP Finals at IEM. Hmm lets wait for the meta to evolve before balance patching anything?
Rain and hero are a level or 2 above the rest of the field. Maybe bomber comes close but the edge should go to rain. No flash, no Taeja, no innovation in the tournament.
funny how it is always a skill based win when a protoss wins but when T or Z wins, they all cry balance. If ypu look at the list of premier tournament wins, especially the first half of 2014 almost every toss won something. I wouldn't be surprised if even HuK won something as well. But its great that the moment a non Protoss wins he whines aboit balance.well he did that even during the 9 months of protoss reign..
Balance was never closer to being ok but that its off still is showed by the lack of recent Zerg wins and that the terrans don't have an answer to toss lategame
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
On December 07 2014 21:56 xelnaga_empire wrote: sOs went 7-1 in his semifinal and finals matches today. Yeah, let's just nerf Terran vs Protoss more. That 1 loss in sOs's last 8 games means Terran is too strong, lol.
This is some mighty fine cherry picking. Did you know that Marineking was on a 13-game win streak vs Protoss prior to his semifinals vs Zest today? I'm not saying either race is OP or that there is even a significant balance issue, but surely you see the flaws in picking the champion and using his record to determine whether or not X is OP?
You can add the IEM results to this. Are you saying top tier Protoss are struggling now?
The point is, David Kim isn't even sure about whether the map pool has any affect on the balance. If you look at David Kim's history, here is his record:
1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans. 2) Over buffed Protoss in HotS, over nerfed Terran, lead to PvsP at practically every other final, and lead to another huge exodus of spectators and fans.
David Kim doesn't seem to be very good at his job. And yes, top tier Protoss are not struggling now - it's clear as night and day.
Doesn't it make sense to see what effect the new map pool has before nerfing Terran? Heck, we don't need a new map pool - it's quite possible if we stick with the current map pool, we'll be seeing top tier Protoss winning premier tournaments anyways.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
On December 09 2014 00:22 xelnaga_empire wrote: 1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans.
What was overly buffed? The queen range that was (and still is) necessary to not die to hellion/hellbat attacks, bunker rushes, reapers and gate allins? Anything else? The only other zerg buff in the year preceding HotS was overlord speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586
2) Over buffed Protoss in HotS,
Again, how? The mothership core that took a year to get nerfed maybe? Phoenix range and Oracle speed? Still not sure it this can be called "over buffed" compared to what the other races got. Especially terran.
over nerfed Terran,
I'm sure you don't mean this in HotS, since terran has been, by far, the most buffed and least nerfed race since its release. So... what has been over nerfed for terran? Let's see... snipe was nerfed against non-psionic, more than one year before HotS. Three months before, EMP radius got nerfed. Is that far back enough or were there other huge terran nerfs before this that caused the rise of protoss in 2014?
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
lol dude... i think ure takin my post way too seriously and consider it some kind of a balance whine when in fact i was just pointing out that what the guy said about the first win being leenocks mlg was wrong and the only thing that id whine about is what i said about nerchio and it could be said about all the other patchzergs of that era. How surprising that in general theyve all stopped winning with the release of hots.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
lol dude... i think ure takin my post way too seriously and consider it some kind of a balance whine when in fact i was just pointing out that what the guy said about the first win being leenocks mlg was wrong and the only thing that id whine about is what i said about nerchio and it could be said about all the other patchzergs of that era. How surprising that in general theyve all stopped winning with the release of hots.
Lol. You're the one putting some exact date on bl/infestor and evading any discussion about foreigner skill back in those days. If you have no follow up to prove what you postulate better not post it at all next time. Player bashing isnt that nice.
I like how some discuss the Bloord Winfestor Balance again As if it wasn't discussed enough and even the most biased casters and players afterwards called it OP, so we better let that case rest.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
lol dude... i think ure takin my post way too seriously and consider it some kind of a balance whine when in fact i was just pointing out that what the guy said about the first win being leenocks mlg was wrong and the only thing that id whine about is what i said about nerchio and it could be said about all the other patchzergs of that era. How surprising that in general theyve all stopped winning with the release of hots.
Lol. You're the one putting some exact date on bl/infestor and evading any discussion about foreigner skill back in those days. If you have no follow up to prove what you postulate better not post it at all next time. Player bashing isnt that nice.
lol what have i done???? all i said was or atleast tried to say is the game seem some up balanced ( as long as new maps help zerg a bit) right now and to rethink this patch. how did it get to this lol.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
lol dude... i think ure takin my post way too seriously and consider it some kind of a balance whine when in fact i was just pointing out that what the guy said about the first win being leenocks mlg was wrong and the only thing that id whine about is what i said about nerchio and it could be said about all the other patchzergs of that era. How surprising that in general theyve all stopped winning with the release of hots.
Lol. You're the one putting some exact date on bl/infestor and evading any discussion about foreigner skill back in those days. If you have no follow up to prove what you postulate better not post it at all next time. Player bashing isnt that nice.
I wasnt trying to start any discussion about that in the first place. The guy said it was 6 months even though it was 9 months and then he said the first zerg win was three months later than it really was so i was just correcting him. And i dont mind bashing patchzergs.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
That is not as true as it sounds. At the end of WoL MC showed us the way. It was not crystal clear style, but he showed the light! Basically you would have a Mothership, 4-6 Carriers(!!!), some Templars, some Colossi, the rest is... Void Rays. The strategy was this - you have a MS with cloaking field, so units are invincible unless mis-control. Then you have Templars for feedback(Infestor) and storm(Corruptors), Carriers are there to zone out Infestors, Colossi are there to zone out infestors & kill static D, Void Rays are there to kill Corruptor deathball. MC won with this on Daybreak. It was easy, fast and clean. I think it was against Nerchio, but it is long time, so cannot be sure. But the HotS were near, no one actually made this style perfect. Although this style was shown just once(I think) at a pro level, I used it pretty often(as a spoon Protoss myself) and it is very easy to play it. I actually think with this style it is harder to play BL/infestor style, because you cannot use infestors. It is near to impossible and without them(and without Vipers, because WoL) you can just march and win. It is slow, boring - but sure.
Please note, that this strategy had exact numbers which I forgot. But it was unbeatable army. The only way how to lose was your own error, since in WoL there are no Vipers (and I still think it is plainly stupid you can abduct MS and that you have to have a hero unit in a no-hero game(herO and HerO do not count :D) (I know someone would otherwise play them )
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
That is not as true as it sounds. At the end of WoL MC showed us the way. It was not crystal clear style, but he showed the light! Basically you would have a Mothership, 4-6 Carriers(!!!), some Templars, some Colossi, the rest is... Void Rays. The strategy was this - you have a MS with cloaking field, so units are invincible unless mis-control. Then you have Templars for feedback(Infestor) and storm(Corruptors), Carriers are there to zone out Infestors, Colossi are there to zone out infestors & kill static D, Void Rays are there to kill Corruptor deathball. MC won with this on Daybreak. It was easy, fast and clean. I think it was against Nerchio, but it is long time, so cannot be sure. But the HotS were near, no one actually made this style perfect. Although this style was shown just once(I think) at a pro level, I used it pretty often(as a spoon Protoss myself) and it is very easy to play it. I actually think with this style it is harder to play BL/infestor style, because you cannot use infestors. It is near to impossible and without them(and without Vipers, because WoL) you can just march and win. It is slow, boring - but sure.
Please note, that this strategy had exact numbers which I forgot. But it was unbeatable army. The only way how to lose was your own error, since in WoL there are no Vipers (and I still think it is plainly stupid you can abduct MS and that you have to have a hero unit in a no-hero game(herO and HerO do not count :D) (I know someone would otherwise play them )
It would be impossible for even today's zerg to win vs P's deathball without MS abudct though.
On December 07 2014 09:16 keglu wrote: Based on Aligulac PvZ was above 50% for first time in 9 months,and TvZ is below 50% in last two months and trending down Somehow it translates into Zerg underperforming in both matchups.
its Aligulac. Aligulac. You dont ever cite Aligulac as data, it's the most flawed database that allows people to cherry-pick non-important matches to skew data.
Sorry, before your last post explaining current state of the game so clearly i did not have any better sources of information than Aligulac. Now with your post closing debate i'll be using your indisputable opinion as facts.
Just forget about him, he's a competitive troll. And if you ever need a good laugh after a bad day, just read here his recent "balance suggestions" (lol).
I'm the troll? Says the biased Terran troll who writes the most ridiculous stuff.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
It's not arbitrary, I gave a good reasoning. In not a single sentence did I even bring up PvZ or TvZ, I merely stated that top foreigners were capable of beating top Koreans at that time. That's whwere I mentioned some Protoss players. Blabla about skillcap is just that, meaningless made up talk to justify whatever you want. The skillcap in SC2 isnt humanly reachable, that's a fact. Those skill gap talks are attributed in comparison to early-mid 2013 when only foreigners that went to Korea had a chance in HotS not WoL. Since then the foreign WCS have been more and more challenged by Koreans, while in S1 2013 it was only 4 Koreans in EU Premier.
That Bl/Inf was too strong is undeniable. But that circlejerking about it is absolute crap. Not one statistic indicates that that era was worse than 2011 or early 2014, yet people like you keep pretending it was the pinnacle of imbalance and should have been burned with fire before it even happened. It's funny, when Terran gets buffed you argue that we should let the metagame settle even though Ts win everything in the first 3months. Whem Z got buffed 2012, you date back their dominance period to the patchdate, even though there was no immidiate dominance. Why date Bl/Inf to the queen patch and not date blink era to the beginning of HotS. Just like with May 2012 Zerg, early 2013 Protoss already had the tools and maps for blink-apocalypse, hence by the same logic you apply to zerg, protoss was dominating one and a half years, lol. I tell you why, because after growing fond of 50% Terran represntation and tournament wins a ton of people here couldnt cope with the fact that for once Zerg was in the lead with all it's implications. Some may have been patchzergs, the greatest part of them were just players that had been around all along but had previously never had a fair chance to show their skills. It's a shame that it is so accepted to openly bash topplayers of 2012. Show some class and respect, noone is denying that Mvp or Thorzain were great players in 2011 either. But somehow this community has complexes about new faces emerging. Of course most zergs didnt break through before late 2011. Of course every Terran who is still around already made a name for himself in 2011. It would be hilarious if they had been around, yet unseccessful with a balance like back then. But that'a not a reason to give them stupid names and pretend they are bad players. Everybody is carried a bit by balance, but winning a tournament is still a great achievment taking tons and tons of skill.
Basically blizzard is saying: that zerg is underperforming against terran and protoss, and protoss is underperforming against terran. In the first scenario if one race(zerg) is underperforming against the other 2(terran,protoss), the logical answer to this: is buff the supuse underpowered race(zerg) or nerf the other 2(terran, protoss), but david kim and his team answer is: "nah, is just the map pool". In the second scenario if protoss still doing well against zerg but not so well against terran, a normal answer to this is: maybe is the map pool, but the answer of david kim and his team is: "we should nerf terran in the pvt". Personally i dont know where is the common sense to make this balance decisions. PD: Is a suggestion that ventral sacs upgrade gona be free after get lair, like was made with hellbat transfromation, this change could give more options to play to the zerg and not current straight and predictable gameplay of the zerg. And also could change a little the current script of terran and protoss of 1000 ways to how to kill a zerg, XD.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
That is not as true as it sounds. At the end of WoL MC showed us the way. It was not crystal clear style, but he showed the light! Basically you would have a Mothership, 4-6 Carriers(!!!), some Templars, some Colossi, the rest is... Void Rays. The strategy was this - you have a MS with cloaking field, so units are invincible unless mis-control. Then you have Templars for feedback(Infestor) and storm(Corruptors), Carriers are there to zone out Infestors, Colossi are there to zone out infestors & kill static D, Void Rays are there to kill Corruptor deathball. MC won with this on Daybreak. It was easy, fast and clean. I think it was against Nerchio, but it is long time, so cannot be sure. But the HotS were near, no one actually made this style perfect. Although this style was shown just once(I think) at a pro level, I used it pretty often(as a spoon Protoss myself) and it is very easy to play it. I actually think with this style it is harder to play BL/infestor style, because you cannot use infestors. It is near to impossible and without them(and without Vipers, because WoL) you can just march and win. It is slow, boring - but sure.
Please note, that this strategy had exact numbers which I forgot. But it was unbeatable army. The only way how to lose was your own error, since in WoL there are no Vipers (and I still think it is plainly stupid you can abduct MS and that you have to have a hero unit in a no-hero game(herO and HerO do not count :D) (I know someone would otherwise play them )
It would be impossible for even today's zerg to win vs P's deathball without MS abudct though.
The point is - you could win without archon toilet. Which was random as hell.
On December 09 2014 13:17 FaiFai wrote: Basically blizzard is saying: that zerg is underperforming against terran and protoss, and protoss is underperforming against terran. In the first scenario if one race(zerg) is underperforming against the other 2(terran,protoss), the logical answer to this: is buff the supuse underpowered race(zerg) or nerf the other 2(terran, protoss), but david kim and his team answer is: "nah, is just the map pool". In the second scenario if protoss still doing well against zerg but not so well against terran, a normal answer to this is: maybe is the map pool, but the answer of david kim and his team is: "we should nerf terran in the pvt". Personally i dont know where is the common sense to make this balance decisions. PD: Is a suggestion that ventral sacs upgrade gona be free after get lair, like was made with hellbat transfromation, this change could give more options to play to the zerg and not current straight and predictable gameplay of the zerg. And also could change a little the current script of terran and protoss of 1000 ways to how to kill a zerg, XD.
I don't understand why is everyone complaining like this would be a huge nerf to Terran. There are Terrans winning PvT without ghosts/mines, this won't affect so much, some of the biggest Terrans may even not notice there was a nerf...
On December 09 2014 18:32 deacon.frost wrote: I don't understand why is everyone complaining like this would be a huge nerf to Terran. There are Terrans winning PvT without ghosts/mines, this won't affect so much, some of the biggest Terrans may even not notice there was a nerf...
Well... going partially back on a mine buff from 9 months ago would be the biggest terran nerf since nearly three years ago. So obviously terrans have to whine. Blizzard is clearly trying to ruin the few chances they have to win any game.
Hell they didn't nerf infestors back in the day, until *four* entire months after the queen patch, and now, only a bit more than 4 months after the mine+thor buffs, they're already talking about maybe going partially back on an old buff that got "re-buffed" in july? That's unforgivable.
On December 09 2014 00:22 xelnaga_empire wrote: 1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans.
What was overly buffed? The queen range that was (and still is) necessary to not die to hellion/hellbat attacks, bunker rushes, reapers and gate allins? Anything else? The only other zerg buff in the year preceding HotS was overlord speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586
Again, how? The mothership core that took a year to get nerfed maybe? Phoenix range and Oracle speed? Still not sure it this can be called "over buffed" compared to what the other races got. Especially terran.
I'm sure you don't mean this in HotS, since terran has been, by far, the most buffed and least nerfed race since its release. So... what has been over nerfed for terran? Let's see... snipe was nerfed against non-psionic, more than one year before HotS. Three months before, EMP radius got nerfed. Is that far back enough or were there other huge terran nerfs before this that caused the rise of protoss in 2014?
While I don't think that the HotS PvP era was as bad as the end of WoL, it's undeniable that the queen patch almost killed Starcraft 2 as a legitimate competitive game and it was only saved by the not-so-timely arrival of HotS and of Kespa players, but I'm pretty sure spectators and players have dropped hugely in numbers during that era, whereas they're pretty stable right now.
It's not so much that the queen patch made a race too powerful (although it certainly did, mind you), it's that it promoted the most boring and easy-to-perform playstyle ever witnessed. No namers were able to take games off of Koreans they should never have dreamt to play against, and did so with a boring as fuck strat. Zerg players who were hailed for their skill and multitasking performed comparatively worse in that time, coincidentally enough (think DRG).
I'm fine with Terran getting nerfed, because that's the way it always has been, but I hope Blizzard won't overbuff a boring playstyle in the process, leading to 6 months of the most boring mirror matchup finals...
Let's not confuse boring and balance. Some people find zvz boring as a mu, although I think it's such an entertaining match where you try to eek out every small advantage to get ahead. How the matchup have evolved showed that the players have clearly evolved and understood that the roach is the "imba" unit against another Zerg player. It just so happens that the opponent can make the same unit as well. I don't think anyone will claim zvz to be unbalanced.
Everyone have their own likes and dislike, artosis like 40 min long macro games, some like in base proxy 2 gates against hero, some like pulling the boys, I think we should not let our idea of what's boring and exciting cloud our perspective of balance.
Let's not make confusions, but when the game is both boring and imbalanced (and imbalanced in a way the most boring matchups become more frequent), it doesn't make for a good viewer experience. And I was specifically talking about end of 2012, thank god Zerg isn't like that anymore.
On December 09 2014 21:38 ZenithM wrote: Let's not make confusions, but when the game is both boring and imbalanced (and imbalanced in a way the most boring matchups become more frequent), it doesn't make for a good viewer experience. And I was specifically talking about end of 2012, thank god Zerg isn't like that anymore.
Best games of 2012/13 thread: 2013: 6/7 games 2013 were TvZ, the other one being PvZ.
2012: 14/40games 2012 were TvZ, 6 PvZ, 6 ZvZ. (handcounted, might contain small mistakes)
That pure boredom TvZ being the best matchup in 2012-13... That insane decrease in PvZ and ZvZ quality through the queen patch (not, PvZ was bad all along; just watch Protoss two base allinning or two base turtling for the 1.5half years before... and ZvZ was never good but 2012 was definitely it's best state with various openings/strategies and transitions breaking out of pure ling/bling or roach wars).
On December 09 2014 21:38 ZenithM wrote: Let's not make confusions, but when the game is both boring and imbalanced (and imbalanced in a way the most boring matchups become more frequent), it doesn't make for a good viewer experience. And I was specifically talking about end of 2012, thank god Zerg isn't like that anymore.
pfft, I loved mid-2012 - early 2013 ZvZ. Will never understand the disdain for the matchup during that period...
TvZ was enjoyable because of how many players top Terrans had to struggle against to win. It made for good storylines. Nowadays, a top Terran just stomps a mid-level Zerg, no contest, some would argue too easily, but in the good old days, you could have an epic Mvp vs Vortix or a Taeja vs SortOf for the ages. We live in such boring times, I now realize it.
Ok I'll stop now, I'm rarely this confrontational, but reading about BL/infestors and end of 2012 just wakes something inside me I didn't know existed.
On December 09 2014 21:38 ZenithM wrote: Let's not make confusions, but when the game is both boring and imbalanced (and imbalanced in a way the most boring matchups become more frequent), it doesn't make for a good viewer experience. And I was specifically talking about end of 2012, thank god Zerg isn't like that anymore.
I found ZvZ boring but ZvT and ZvP fun to watch.
Now, I find PvP just as boring as ZvZ was then, maybe even more. In ZvZ we sometimes had explosive baneling wars.
TvT was fun for a while but since there was so much of it for first two years of WoL I lost all will to watch it anymore.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
That Bl/Inf was too strong is undeniable. But that circlejerking about it is absolute crap. Not one statistic indicates that that era was worse than 2011 or early 2014, yet people like you keep pretending it was the pinnacle of imbalance and should have been burned with fire before it even happened. It's funny,
May 2012- February 2013 is only extended period of one race domination outside of 2010 (which i don't think is considered balance period of sc2 history)
On December 09 2014 19:18 ZenithM wrote: it's undeniable that the queen patch almost killed Starcraft 2 as a legitimate competitive game
Well if it's undeniable...
On December 09 2014 19:18 ZenithM wrote:I'm fine with Terran getting nerfed, because that's the way it always has been,
Terrans, the eternal victims of the blizzard nerf bat. No matter how many buffs they get, no matter their winrates, no matter the tournaments they win, they always have to cry about being over nerfed...
On December 09 2014 10:09 Big J wrote: That Bl/Inf was too strong is undeniable. But that circlejerking about it is absolute crap. Not one statistic indicates that that era was worse than 2011 or early 2014, yet people like you keep pretending it was the pinnacle of imbalance and should have been burned with fire before it even happened. It's funny,
May 2012- February 2013 is only extended period of one race domination outside of 2010 (which i don't think is considered balance period of sc2 history)
To use the usual terran arguments when this graph is reversed: - Aligulac isn't a good way to judge balance - winrates aren't everything - some terrans still managed to win/go far in tournaments, so there was obviously no real problem - it was a long time ago, the skill level was very different, it has no relevance now - just because it was this way in the past does not mean it should be this way for another race now If TheDwf was zerg, he would probably have tons of numbers to throw at you, proving that zerg didn't actually win that much. They may even have been underpowered. Besides at the time, a lot of zerg players were simply better than their terran counterparts. Also, maps.
And all of this just because Blizzard *thinks* about reducing the buff that mines got for TvP back before their only nerf was reverted? Wow, terrans really don't like getting nerfs. Strange for a race that's supposedly always getting nerfed. They should be used to it by now.
After watching some tournaments the past couple weeks I think it is pretty clear that terran does not need a nerf and that the map pool needs fixed. Marineking winning vs a bunch of poorly executed protoss allins hardly proves anything.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
That Bl/Inf was too strong is undeniable. But that circlejerking about it is absolute crap. Not one statistic indicates that that era was worse than 2011 or early 2014, yet people like you keep pretending it was the pinnacle of imbalance and should have been burned with fire before it even happened. It's funny,
May 2012- February 2013 is only extended period of one race domination outside of 2010 (which i don't think is considered balance period of sc2 history)
Have you even looked at 2011? Like peeked at it once? TvZ being on 54-55% average for 8months between January and July, awefully compareable to what you call the only extended period of one race domination. And when you say one race domination, you mean one matchup, right? Because unless you can't read the stats in the period you quote, PvZ was around 47-48% on average which is rather close to balance by metrics of winrate, far from "domination" at least.
And in all of that, the aligulac winrate is your only metric of balance, while other stats weren't as terrible. Look at Premier tournament winners in 2011 or in late 2013 to early 2014 if you want to see a statistic being terribly one-sided. Look at Code S representations in that period if you want to see some stats being terribly off. Neither of those major statistics representing balance at the top were as bad in BL/Infestor days as they were during other races peak performances. One imbalance doesn't justify another... and then I hope you may realize that I'm the one here arguing against people who sneak in their backwards balance whines with unjustified phrases such as "worst period" and similar comparisons.
All of those times have had races too strong, could we please move on from trying to mark one as worse as the others to massage our egos. Each one of them was the worst in some way.
On December 09 2014 00:22 xelnaga_empire wrote: 1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans.
What was overly buffed? The queen range that was (and still is) necessary to not die to hellion/hellbat attacks, bunker rushes, reapers and gate allins? Anything else? The only other zerg buff in the year preceding HotS was overlord speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586
2) Over buffed Protoss in HotS,
Again, how? The mothership core that took a year to get nerfed maybe? Phoenix range and Oracle speed? Still not sure it this can be called "over buffed" compared to what the other races got. Especially terran.
over nerfed Terran,
I'm sure you don't mean this in HotS, since terran has been, by far, the most buffed and least nerfed race since its release. So... what has been over nerfed for terran? Let's see... snipe was nerfed against non-psionic, more than one year before HotS. Three months before, EMP radius got nerfed. Is that far back enough or were there other huge terran nerfs before this that caused the rise of protoss in 2014?
While I don't think that the HotS PvP era was as bad as the end of WoL, it's undeniable that the queen patch almost killed Starcraft 2 as a legitimate competitive game and it was only saved by the not-so-timely arrival of HotS and of Kespa players
I deny that. The queen change was essential to allow zergs survive early terran pressure.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
That Bl/Inf was too strong is undeniable. But that circlejerking about it is absolute crap. Not one statistic indicates that that era was worse than 2011 or early 2014, yet people like you keep pretending it was the pinnacle of imbalance and should have been burned with fire before it even happened. It's funny,
May 2012- February 2013 is only extended period of one race domination outside of 2010 (which i don't think is considered balance period of sc2 history)
Have you even looked at 2011? Like peeked at it once? TvZ being on 54-55% average for 8months between January and July, awefully compareable to what you call the only extended period of one race domination. And when you say one race domination, you mean one matchup, right? Because unless you can't read the stats in the period you quote, PvZ was around 47-48% on average which is rather close to balance by metrics of winrate, far from "domination" at least.
And in all of that, the aligulac winrate is your only metric of balance, while other stats weren't as terrible. Look at Premier tournament winners in 2011 or in late 2013 to early 2014 if you want to see a statistic being terribly one-sided. Look at Code S representations in that period if you want to see some stats being terribly off. Neither of those major statistics representing balance at the top were as bad in BL/Infestor days as they were during other races peak performances. One imbalance doesn't justify another... and then I hope you may realize that I'm the one here arguing against people who sneak in their backwards balance whines with unjustified phrases such as "worst period" and similar comparisons.
All of those times have had races too strong, could we please move on from trying to mark one as worse as the others to massage our egos. Each one of them was the worst in some way.
From what i see in second graph is that each line is race and not matchup. So second graph combines both matchups for each race. For single matchups you are right, early 2011 was bad but it was also trending towards 50/50, TvZ in 2012/2013 never showed any sings of recovery until HOTS. Actually 6 months after patch it was at worst state with winrates below 43% twice. If you prefer to use tournaments winners it's ok, i just pointed out that there is at least one single statistic supporting this notion.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
That Bl/Inf was too strong is undeniable. But that circlejerking about it is absolute crap. Not one statistic indicates that that era was worse than 2011 or early 2014, yet people like you keep pretending it was the pinnacle of imbalance and should have been burned with fire before it even happened. It's funny,
May 2012- February 2013 is only extended period of one race domination outside of 2010 (which i don't think is considered balance period of sc2 history)
Have you even looked at 2011? Like peeked at it once? TvZ being on 54-55% average for 8months between January and July, awefully compareable to what you call the only extended period of one race domination. And when you say one race domination, you mean one matchup, right? Because unless you can't read the stats in the period you quote, PvZ was around 47-48% on average which is rather close to balance by metrics of winrate, far from "domination" at least.
And in all of that, the aligulac winrate is your only metric of balance, while other stats weren't as terrible. Look at Premier tournament winners in 2011 or in late 2013 to early 2014 if you want to see a statistic being terribly one-sided. Look at Code S representations in that period if you want to see some stats being terribly off. Neither of those major statistics representing balance at the top were as bad in BL/Infestor days as they were during other races peak performances. One imbalance doesn't justify another... and then I hope you may realize that I'm the one here arguing against people who sneak in their backwards balance whines with unjustified phrases such as "worst period" and similar comparisons.
All of those times have had races too strong, could we please move on from trying to mark one as worse as the others to massage our egos. Each one of them was the worst in some way.
From what i see in second graph is that each line is race and not matchup. So second graph combines both matchups for each race. For single matchups you are right, early 2011 was bad but it was also trending towards 50/50, TvZ in 2012/2013 never showed any sings of recovery until HOTS. Actually 6 months after patch it was at worst state with winrates below 43% twice.
If you read the description on Aligulac's page:
However, as ratings catch up to the performances of the players, this chart will tend toward equilibrium, even if balance never changes.
On December 08 2014 12:11 starslayer wrote: so now that life won wcs, parting won hsc, forgg won DH, SOS won hot6, and either toss or terran will win IEM can we say the game is pretty balanced and new maps that help zerg would make it just about perfect. is this really needed i mean come on this is just silly.
seriously, what's wrong with those idiots? first, they refuse to fix the obviously broken infestor for, what, almost two years?. and now they're just nerfing and buffing without giving things enough time to settle. just when other races were adjusting to terran, they completely nerf terran into the ground. so they buff terran. now that everyone's adjusting to it again, they're gonna nerf. the stupidity is mind boggling.
What is stupidity?
BL+infestor era was like 6 months long, it started when the queens got the range buffs after ghost got nerfed. First Zerg win was Leenock at MLG in august 2012, then Life in October in Code S. When ghost could snipe BL/ultras nobody was ranting at the infestor, it was actually a necessary tool to keep zergs alive. Watch MMA vs DRG finals if you don't remember.
Plus the last monthes don't count much cause all devs were working on HOTS which was released in march 2013.
Balance is not perfect, maybe, but before calling people idiots or stupids try to at least sound smart yourself...
This new mine change is not so big and probably won't make blink all ins or zealot/archons pushes OP again, at least I hope so.
The real big issue is the map pool, they seem to have heard this. So let's wait and see.
Not true. The first zerg win (Top 3 was all zergs - Violet, Symbol, Stephano) was Violet at the MLG Spring Arena 2 about a week or so after the patch, then DRG won the MLG Spring Championship and also Nerchio won (wtf) the HSC V vs MC and YongHwa at the time when MC was on the way to his 3rd GSL finals and had won Red Bull Austin. And if it wasnt for Mvp he wouldve won even the IEM Cologne shortly after. I cant even believe how silly that sounds today that a foreign zerg would get into the finals of a premier tournament few times in a row vs top KR players of that time. And the time frame is actually from May 2012 to March 2013 (remember RorO winning the last WoL GSL in March?).
yeah, those insanely imbalanced first 3months after the queen patch, when zerg won 3 of 12 tournaments. Completely broken, I mean 25% going to 33% of the players? What insanity!!!
BL/Infestor only started showing somewhat around the time when Life beat Mvp in GSL finals. Before that it was just the continued whining that had already started mid 2011 when BL/Infestor first popped up. Only somewhere in the third quarter of 2012 it started to show that the strategy - and strategies leading up to it - really could be played to a very hard to beat perfection.
Also, while you are at it with foreign players. Funny story, just one month before that unthinkable thing happened with top3 all-zerg ("omg, that must mean complete imbalance of the game", regardless of the tournament quality or size so this too, right?) a foreign Terran did the unthinkable and won Premier Tournament. Even more, BL/Infestor was so broken that even foreign Protoss players like Grubby or Mana made it to Premier finals (and Mana even won). No, seriously. The truth is that back in 2012 the best Koreans weren't that much better than the best foreigners - and most often when foreigners did well in tournaments the Korean line-up was rather weak. Mana, Bunny and Nerchio had great runs, mostly over foreigners. MaNa beating forgg was as much of an upset as Grubby beating MC. Nerchio won a Premier tournament without ever encountering a Korean and got second in one in which he encountered. Nerchio beat MC and violet (regardless how imbalanced you think BL/Infestor was, ZvZ was balanced and beating top Korean Zergs as Zerg had nothing to do with imbalance, rather just showcases that that the skill-level was really much closer) to lose against Mvp in the finals.
And even if we look to the top-foreigners these days (e.g. Snute and Bunny), they can still take matches of those former top players like MC, Hyun, Stardust or even the new Korean top players like Flash or TRUE.
You're defending queen range patch by arbitrarily setting a 3 month cut-off period. Anyone could see a problem with that. BL/infestor was horrible, and you're trying to down-play it.
BL/infestor's biggest victim was TvZ and you use PvZ to defend it. End even then, it was mainly archon-toilet for Protoss to stand a chance in late-game.
Foreigner vs Korean ZvZ results were indicative of the lower skill-cap for the race. And even so, Korean Zergs of the highest calibre stayed in Korea.
Most pros attribute Koreans in EU ladder for closing the skill gap, not increasing the skill gap (In reference to region locking, but the point is that skill gap is seen as smaller now than before in EU).
That Bl/Inf was too strong is undeniable. But that circlejerking about it is absolute crap. Not one statistic indicates that that era was worse than 2011 or early 2014, yet people like you keep pretending it was the pinnacle of imbalance and should have been burned with fire before it even happened. It's funny,
May 2012- February 2013 is only extended period of one race domination outside of 2010 (which i don't think is considered balance period of sc2 history)
Have you even looked at 2011? Like peeked at it once? TvZ being on 54-55% average for 8months between January and July, awefully compareable to what you call the only extended period of one race domination. And when you say one race domination, you mean one matchup, right? Because unless you can't read the stats in the period you quote, PvZ was around 47-48% on average which is rather close to balance by metrics of winrate, far from "domination" at least.
And in all of that, the aligulac winrate is your only metric of balance, while other stats weren't as terrible. Look at Premier tournament winners in 2011 or in late 2013 to early 2014 if you want to see a statistic being terribly one-sided. Look at Code S representations in that period if you want to see some stats being terribly off. Neither of those major statistics representing balance at the top were as bad in BL/Infestor days as they were during other races peak performances. One imbalance doesn't justify another... and then I hope you may realize that I'm the one here arguing against people who sneak in their backwards balance whines with unjustified phrases such as "worst period" and similar comparisons.
All of those times have had races too strong, could we please move on from trying to mark one as worse as the others to massage our egos. Each one of them was the worst in some way.
From what i see in second graph is that each line is race and not matchup. So second graph combines both matchups for each race. For single matchups you are right, early 2011 was bad but it was also trending towards 50/50, TvZ in 2012/2013 never showed any sings of recovery until HOTS. Actually 6 months after patch it was at worst state with winrates below 43% twice. If you prefer to use tournaments winners it's ok, i just pointed out that there is at least one single statistic supporting this notion.
It wasnt trending towards 50/50 for no reason if you remember SC2's patching process. Blizzard should have patched in 2012-13 too. David Kim even admitted it was a huge mistake not to.
I'm actually never looking at that other graph so i didnt even see it, sorry.
On December 09 2014 00:22 xelnaga_empire wrote: 1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans.
What was overly buffed? The queen range that was (and still is) necessary to not die to hellion/hellbat attacks, bunker rushes, reapers and gate allins? Anything else? The only other zerg buff in the year preceding HotS was overlord speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586
2) Over buffed Protoss in HotS,
Again, how? The mothership core that took a year to get nerfed maybe? Phoenix range and Oracle speed? Still not sure it this can be called "over buffed" compared to what the other races got. Especially terran.
over nerfed Terran,
I'm sure you don't mean this in HotS, since terran has been, by far, the most buffed and least nerfed race since its release. So... what has been over nerfed for terran? Let's see... snipe was nerfed against non-psionic, more than one year before HotS. Three months before, EMP radius got nerfed. Is that far back enough or were there other huge terran nerfs before this that caused the rise of protoss in 2014?
While I don't think that the HotS PvP era was as bad as the end of WoL, it's undeniable that the queen patch almost killed Starcraft 2 as a legitimate competitive game and it was only saved by the not-so-timely arrival of HotS and of Kespa players
I deny that. The queen change was essential to allow zergs survive early terran pressure.
Essential as in "give them a 65% winrate instead of the meager 49% they had before". You Zerg gentlemen sure know how to spin a tale. I'll easily acknowledge that Terran is strong right now, but you could at least acknowledge that the queen patch created somewhat of a little mess in this game's balance back then.
Edit: Before somebody actually quotes me on the 65% like a smartass, I just meant to say that the game was less balanced after that patch than it was before. Some maps actually displayed a 62+% zerg winrate in ZvT, of that I'm pretty sure. Was it Daybreak?
On December 09 2014 00:22 xelnaga_empire wrote: 1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans.
What was overly buffed? The queen range that was (and still is) necessary to not die to hellion/hellbat attacks, bunker rushes, reapers and gate allins? Anything else? The only other zerg buff in the year preceding HotS was overlord speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586
2) Over buffed Protoss in HotS,
Again, how? The mothership core that took a year to get nerfed maybe? Phoenix range and Oracle speed? Still not sure it this can be called "over buffed" compared to what the other races got. Especially terran.
over nerfed Terran,
I'm sure you don't mean this in HotS, since terran has been, by far, the most buffed and least nerfed race since its release. So... what has been over nerfed for terran? Let's see... snipe was nerfed against non-psionic, more than one year before HotS. Three months before, EMP radius got nerfed. Is that far back enough or were there other huge terran nerfs before this that caused the rise of protoss in 2014?
While I don't think that the HotS PvP era was as bad as the end of WoL, it's undeniable that the queen patch almost killed Starcraft 2 as a legitimate competitive game and it was only saved by the not-so-timely arrival of HotS and of Kespa players
I deny that. The queen change was essential to allow zergs survive early terran pressure.
Essential as in "give them a 65% winrate instead of the meager 49% they had before". You Zerg gentlemen sure know how to spin a tale. I'll easily acknowledge that Terran is strong right now, but you could at least acknowledge that the queen patch created somewhat of a little mess in this game's balance back then.
I don't understand how anybody could have looked at 2012 with anything but disdain.
"They'll do something other than open with reactored hellions", they said...as if there was some kind of undiscovered, secret strategy, burried by years of ineptitude and laziness, just waiting for a kespaterran to dig it up so that terrans could have a 50 / 50 winrate.
On December 10 2014 08:54 ZenithM wrote: I'll easily acknowledge that Terran is strong right now, but you could at least acknowledge that the queen patch created somewhat of a little mess in this game's balance back then.
Sure, but look at the timing of what followed.
Queen patch in May 2012, they let the game settle, nerfed the infestors a bit 4 months later and gave free HSM to terrans (the first of a loooong list of free upgrades, but let's ignore that), then they let the game settle, and nerfed the infestors again another 4 months later. We'll never know if it'd have been enough since HotS came out two months afterwards, with yet more nerfs to infestors and a whole slew of new units and buffs all over the place (the biggest ones for terran, but let's ignore that).
Point is, they patched, waited to see what would happen, patched a little, waited again, patched a little, waited again. Precisely what terrans have been asking for since their buffs in july (strangely not before, but let's ignore that). Did Blizzard wait too long or patched too timidly? Maybe. It's always much easier to judge in hindsight. But they did what has been asked of them, what's still being asked of them now, and what they said they're still intending to do.
On December 09 2014 00:22 xelnaga_empire wrote: 1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans.
What was overly buffed? The queen range that was (and still is) necessary to not die to hellion/hellbat attacks, bunker rushes, reapers and gate allins? Anything else? The only other zerg buff in the year preceding HotS was overlord speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586
2) Over buffed Protoss in HotS,
Again, how? The mothership core that took a year to get nerfed maybe? Phoenix range and Oracle speed? Still not sure it this can be called "over buffed" compared to what the other races got. Especially terran.
over nerfed Terran,
I'm sure you don't mean this in HotS, since terran has been, by far, the most buffed and least nerfed race since its release. So... what has been over nerfed for terran? Let's see... snipe was nerfed against non-psionic, more than one year before HotS. Three months before, EMP radius got nerfed. Is that far back enough or were there other huge terran nerfs before this that caused the rise of protoss in 2014?
While I don't think that the HotS PvP era was as bad as the end of WoL, it's undeniable that the queen patch almost killed Starcraft 2 as a legitimate competitive game and it was only saved by the not-so-timely arrival of HotS and of Kespa players
I deny that. The queen change was essential to allow zergs survive early terran pressure.
Essential as in "give them a 65% winrate instead of the meager 49% they had before". You Zerg gentlemen sure know how to spin a tale. I'll easily acknowledge that Terran is strong right now, but you could at least acknowledge that the queen patch created somewhat of a little mess in this game's balance back then.
Edit: Before somebody actually quotes me on the 65% like a smartass, I just meant to say that the game was less balanced after that patch than it was before. Some maps actually displayed a 62+% zerg winrate in ZvT, of that I'm pretty sure. Was it Daybreak?
It took time for the terrans to adapt, that is true. That does not mean the game itself was more imbalanced. It could mean that the terrans abused a weakness of the zerg and were not creative enough to adapt quickly.
On December 10 2014 00:54 ZenithM wrote: TvZ was enjoyable because of how many players top Terrans had to struggle against to win. It made for good storylines. Nowadays, a top Terran just stomps a mid-level Zerg, no contest, some would argue too easily, but in the good old days, you could have an epic Mvp vs Vortix or a Taeja vs SortOf for the ages. We live in such boring times, I now realize it.
Ok I'll stop now, I'm rarely this confrontational, but reading about BL/infestors and end of 2012 just wakes something inside me I didn't know existed.
Yup. Even if the Zerg was able to survive late game and got to broodlords, smart Terrans would have a handful of Vikings and Ravens ready. WoL ZvT wasn't as badly broken as it is now currently. Now, you see Zergs hold on to their lives when Terran comes knocking on their doorstep, and when you see that one widow mine blow up 20 banelings, you know the game has been decided. So anti-climatic.
Terrans, the eternal victims of the blizzard nerf bat. No matter how many buffs they get, no matter their winrates, no matter the tournaments they win, they always have to cry about being over nerfed...
I just want Blizzard to give Terrans perma-invisible marines that has ultralisk armor to see whether these T posters would still viciously deny that their race isn't advantageous lmao
Terrans, the eternal victims of the blizzard nerf bat. No matter how many buffs they get, no matter their winrates, no matter the tournaments they win, they always have to cry about being over nerfed...
I just want Blizzard to give Terrans perma-invisible marines that has ultralisk armor to see whether these T posters would still viciously deny that their race isn't advantageous lmao
Terrans, the eternal victims of the blizzard nerf bat. No matter how many buffs they get, no matter their winrates, no matter the tournaments they win, they always have to cry about being over nerfed...
I just want Blizzard to give Terrans perma-invisible marines that has ultralisk armor to see whether these T posters would still viciously deny that their race isn't advantageous lmao
Terrans, the eternal victims of the blizzard nerf bat. No matter how many buffs they get, no matter their winrates, no matter the tournaments they win, they always have to cry about being over nerfed...
I just want Blizzard to give Terrans perma-invisible marines that has ultralisk armor to see whether these T posters would still viciously deny that their race isn't advantageous lmao
They will say that it's more demanding to play the race, you need to micro the marine with stutter-step to make it cost effective, as opposed to A-moving your army.
Terrans, the eternal victims of the blizzard nerf bat. No matter how many buffs they get, no matter their winrates, no matter the tournaments they win, they always have to cry about being over nerfed...
I just want Blizzard to give Terrans perma-invisible marines that has ultralisk armor to see whether these T posters would still viciously deny that their race isn't advantageous lmao
They will say that it's more demanding to play the race, you need to micro the marine with stutter-step to make it cost effective, as opposed to A-moving your army.
"it's more demanding because not only do you have to stutter step, you also have to watch the invisible observer mark and predict where they are, and stutter-step out of their vision, so it's actually balanced. Only really good T players can abuse it."
"Win rate of 75% vs Z and P are just because of maps. Maps. Give it more time."
"Look at Aligulac, these T players lost in the Liquid TXO Tournament held in Chicago at the Lincoln Mall, the finalist was a P and a Z!!!!"
Terrans, the eternal victims of the blizzard nerf bat. No matter how many buffs they get, no matter their winrates, no matter the tournaments they win, they always have to cry about being over nerfed...
I just want Blizzard to give Terrans perma-invisible marines that has ultralisk armor to see whether these T posters would still viciously deny that their race isn't advantageous lmao
They will say that it's more demanding to play the race, you need to micro the marine with stutter-step to make it cost effective, as opposed to A-moving your army.
Ignoring the slight detail that marines (and marauders I guess) are basically the only units for which stutter-stepping is made easy, since they have no attack animation delay. Fortunately, those terrans don't let such unimportant details stop them. They're more skilled with less effective units, that's all. And on top of this, they keep getting nerf after nerf. That's depressing.
On December 10 2014 08:54 ZenithM wrote: I'll easily acknowledge that Terran is strong right now, but you could at least acknowledge that the queen patch created somewhat of a little mess in this game's balance back then.
Sure, but look at the timing of what followed.
Queen patch in May 2012, they let the game settle, nerfed the infestors a bit 4 months later and gave free HSM to terrans (the first of a loooong list of free upgrades, but let's ignore that), then they let the game settle, and nerfed the infestors again another 4 months later. We'll never know if it'd have been enough since HotS came out two months afterwards, with yet more nerfs to infestors and a whole slew of new units and buffs all over the place (the biggest ones for terran, but let's ignore that).
Point is, they patched, waited to see what would happen, patched a little, waited again, patched a little, waited again. Precisely what terrans have been asking for since their buffs in july (strangely not before, but let's ignore that). Did Blizzard wait too long or patched too timidly? Maybe. It's always much easier to judge in hindsight. But they did what has been asked of them, what's still being asked of them now, and what they said they're still intending to do.
So what is the problem exactly?
Problem is that Blizz ruined game with patch and never fixed until expansion
On December 09 2014 00:22 xelnaga_empire wrote: 1) Over buffed Zerg in WoL. Lead to Broodlord/Infestor nightmare and ZvsZ finals and a huge exodus of spectators and fans.
What was overly buffed? The queen range that was (and still is) necessary to not die to hellion/hellbat attacks, bunker rushes, reapers and gate allins? Anything else? The only other zerg buff in the year preceding HotS was overlord speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586
2) Over buffed Protoss in HotS,
Again, how? The mothership core that took a year to get nerfed maybe? Phoenix range and Oracle speed? Still not sure it this can be called "over buffed" compared to what the other races got. Especially terran.
over nerfed Terran,
I'm sure you don't mean this in HotS, since terran has been, by far, the most buffed and least nerfed race since its release. So... what has been over nerfed for terran? Let's see... snipe was nerfed against non-psionic, more than one year before HotS. Three months before, EMP radius got nerfed. Is that far back enough or were there other huge terran nerfs before this that caused the rise of protoss in 2014?
While I don't think that the HotS PvP era was as bad as the end of WoL, it's undeniable that the queen patch almost killed Starcraft 2 as a legitimate competitive game and it was only saved by the not-so-timely arrival of HotS and of Kespa players
I deny that. The queen change was essential to allow zergs survive early terran pressure.
Essential as in "give them a 65% winrate instead of the meager 49% they had before". You Zerg gentlemen sure know how to spin a tale. I'll easily acknowledge that Terran is strong right now, but you could at least acknowledge that the queen patch created somewhat of a little mess in this game's balance back then.
Edit: Before somebody actually quotes me on the 65% like a smartass, I just meant to say that the game was less balanced after that patch than it was before. Some maps actually displayed a 62+% zerg winrate in ZvT, of that I'm pretty sure. Was it Daybreak?
It took time for the terrans to adapt, that is true. That does not mean the game itself was more imbalanced. It could mean that the terrans abused a weakness of the zerg and were not creative enough to adapt quickly.
When exactly did Terrans adapt? Hots came and everything changed
On December 10 2014 00:54 ZenithM wrote: TvZ was enjoyable because of how many players top Terrans had to struggle against to win. It made for good storylines. Nowadays, a top Terran just stomps a mid-level Zerg, no contest, some would argue too easily, but in the good old days, you could have an epic Mvp vs Vortix or a Taeja vs SortOf for the ages. We live in such boring times, I now realize it.
Ok I'll stop now, I'm rarely this confrontational, but reading about BL/infestors and end of 2012 just wakes something inside me I didn't know existed.
Yup. Even if the Zerg was able to survive late game and got to broodlords, smart Terrans would have a handful of Vikings and Ravens ready. WoL ZvT wasn't as badly broken as it is now currently. Now, you see Zergs hold on to their lives when Terran comes knocking on their doorstep, and when you see that one widow mine blow up 20 banelings, you know the game has been decided. So anti-climatic.
Wait what? TvZ is at 48,55% : October 47,61% : November 45:00%: since 27 of Novermber above 50% in 3 of last 12 months
On December 10 2014 15:27 keglu wrote: Problem is that Blizz ruined game with patch and never fixed until expansion
Sure, the game was utterly ruined from May 2012 to March 2013, right. ZvZ everywhere, not a single good game for nearly a year, the game was both unplayable and unwatchable. And Blizzard didn't even *try* to do anything before HotS. Except for the patches in-between, but they don't count since they didn't do enough. They waited 4 months before trying to patch anything. That was far too long. They should have patched more things more often, and not waited so long before doing anything.
And so, the obvious conclusion is that they should not even try a minor nerf for TvP now. They should patch less often and wait longer before doing anything. It's only been 4 months, it's far too short.
Hell, they should not even try to do anything at all with the game. Either they patch too soon, or too late, or too little, or too much. What an incompetent bunch, always trying to ruin the game for everyone.
They should just do whatever people over here are deciding that they should do. Oh wait, even when they do that, they ruin the game. No really, they should just stop everything.
Anyway back to the proposed patch. Would the nerf to widow mines be useful to correct the current unbalance?
The semis between rain and bomber. Rain made templar openning worked. But it was more a case of bomber never scouting, never dropping and blindly go Viking. But since rain went Templar in some of the games, maybe he was having some success with templar openning on ladder against terran. Or was it a case of rain playing the opponent.
Oh. Still on the series, I cannot understand bomber's decision after he pull the boys to attack into tons of cannons with rain's collosus pheonix.
On December 10 2014 20:19 Samx wrote: Anyway back to the proposed patch. Would the nerf to widow mines be useful to correct the current unbalance?
The semis between rain and bomber. Rain made templar openning worked. But it was more a case of bomber never scouting, never dropping and blindly go Viking. But since rain went Templar in some of the games, maybe he was having some success with templar openning on ladder against terran. Or was it a case of rain playing the opponent.
Oh. Still on the series, I cannot understand bomber's decision after he pull the boys to attack into tons of cannons with rain's collosus pheonix.
I think Rain was banking on Bomber not scouting he´s templar play. Bomber is known for not scanning and at a time when templar openings are easily countered terrans can easely go on autopilot.
On December 10 2014 00:54 ZenithM wrote: TvZ was enjoyable because of how many players top Terrans had to struggle against to win. It made for good storylines. Nowadays, a top Terran just stomps a mid-level Zerg, no contest, some would argue too easily, but in the good old days, you could have an epic Mvp vs Vortix or a Taeja vs SortOf for the ages. We live in such boring times, I now realize it.
Ok I'll stop now, I'm rarely this confrontational, but reading about BL/infestors and end of 2012 just wakes something inside me I didn't know existed.
Yup. Even if the Zerg was able to survive late game and got to broodlords, smart Terrans would have a handful of Vikings and Ravens ready. WoL ZvT wasn't as badly broken as it is now currently. Now, you see Zergs hold on to their lives when Terran comes knocking on their doorstep, and when you see that one widow mine blow up 20 banelings, you know the game has been decided. So anti-climatic.
Wait what? TvZ is at 48,55% : October 47,61% : November 45:00%: since 27 of Novermber above 50% in 3 of last 12 months
Indeed seems broken as hell.
You know, you should just ignore parkufarku. He's just a troll.
On December 10 2014 20:19 Samx wrote: Anyway back to the proposed patch. Would the nerf to widow mines be useful to correct the current unbalance?
The semis between rain and bomber. Rain made templar openning worked. But it was more a case of bomber never scouting, never dropping and blindly go Viking. But since rain went Templar in some of the games, maybe he was having some success with templar openning on ladder against terran. Or was it a case of rain playing the opponent.
Oh. Still on the series, I cannot understand bomber's decision after he pull the boys to attack into tons of cannons with rain's collosus pheonix.
Probably templer build was due to bomber's stubbornness to stay at MMM with vikings.
Not to downplay what you felt, because if ZvZ is for you what TvT is for me, I can feel your pain, but you do realize that your first example of what the "Broodlord/Infestor era" was, in addition to taking place in Australia, the other Zerg homeworld, also took place the month *before* the queen patch?
Not sure what the second one is supposed to show either, since a tournament that starts with 9P/3T/12Z and ends up with one of the terrans winning against a protoss does not really highlight the zerg domination of this time. But if your issue with BL/Infestor is the extreme boringness of the style, and not so much any balance concern, I can easily understand that.
It still hasn't much to do with the original subject of the necessity/usefulness of a potential minor nerf to mines in a future patch for PvT, in addition to new maps to (maybe) help ZvT. Not sure why BL/Infestors got brought up in the first place
Haha my first example wasn't the best, indeed. But in my defense, if anything it shows that there wasn't really a need to help Zerg at this point in time. Just like it might not be needed now. I'm fine with minor nerfs though, just don't add +2 range to an early defensive unit everyone is going to build...
On December 11 2014 17:51 ZenithM wrote: Haha my first example wasn't the best, indeed. But in my defense, if anything it shows that there wasn't really a need to help Zerg at this point in time. Just like it might not be needed now. I'm fine with minor nerfs though, just don't add +2 range to an early defensive unit everyone is going to build...
As was mentioned before, this particular change was made because of proxy raxes and hellions. With faster overlords to help scouting those builds in time. Hard to survive when all your available units have a (much) lower range than any unit that can attack you. It unlocked more options and is still pretty much necessary now. Unless you see a way for Zerg to defend early heavy pressure (be it 2 rax, warpgate allin, quick hellbat push, ...) without a unit that can at least hit something Maybe LotV will give alternatives, but until then...
The fact that this triggered the rise of a boring style, that may or may not have been the best/only choice to reach the late game could hardly have been predicted. After the fact know-it-alls who whine about everything and then fixate on occurrences where something did end up being bad are just that. Whiners. Unimportant. It's easy to criticize in hindsight, but much harder to guess beforehand. And they did try to fix things a few months later, at an even quicker rate than now. With changes that may not have been enough (again, hindsight), but they specifically tried not to rush things.
They seem to be trying to do the same thing now, with minor changes after several months of letting the game evolve on its own. I don't see the issue with this. I don't think it will be enough, but that's just me. I still won't fault them for trying to be cautious. I do fault them however for not doing that back in july, with their cumulative protoss nerf, terran buffs *and* terran-favored map pool. Now *that* was a stupid patch.
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
Funny thing is, the qualified zergs have no chance against more than half of the Terran column even with a balanced game. Solar, Dark, ByuL and Rogue? Would you really put them on par with Maru, Innovation and Flash (and others imo, but I'll just mention those 3 since those aren't debatable ;D)? Only Soulkey has proven himself top class.
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
Funny thing is, the qualified zergs have no chance against more than half of the Terran column even with a balanced game. Solar, Dark, ByuL and Rogue? Would you really put them on par with Maru, Innovation and Flash (and others imo, but I'll just mention those 3 since those aren't debatable ;D)? Only Soulkey has proven himself top class.
Wow. Zest rain and SoS did not qualify for RO32. Only herO made it.
Zest went out by zvp and rain by pvp an sOs from pvt. These qualifiers are cutthroat and a lot depends on bracket luck. But we are seeing a return of terrans who have been largely irrelevant for a while.
Not sure if aligulac is fully updated, but the winrates there are fine. Only thing that is off is the amount of ZvZs (0) compared to 16 TvT and 18 PvP.
On December 11 2014 20:02 Big J wrote: Not sure if aligulac is fully updated, but the winrates there are fine. Only thing that is off is the amount of ZvZs (0) compared to 16 TvT and 18 PvP.
On December 11 2014 20:02 Big J wrote: Not sure if aligulac is fully updated, but the winrates there are fine. Only thing that is off is the amount of ZvZs (0) compared to 16 TvT and 18 PvP.
Cool. Weird that the amount of mirrors on aligulac is so much higher, the other results are similar and could just be aligulac still missing a few games.
On December 11 2014 20:02 Big J wrote: Not sure if aligulac is fully updated, but the winrates there are fine. Only thing that is off is the amount of ZvZs (0) compared to 16 TvT and 18 PvP.
Cool. Weird that the amount of mirrors on aligulac is so much higher, the other results are similar and could just be aligulac still missing a few games.
I think Aligulac includes Australia, where literally 90% of the pros plays Zerg.
On December 11 2014 20:02 Big J wrote: Not sure if aligulac is fully updated, but the winrates there are fine. Only thing that is off is the amount of ZvZs (0) compared to 16 TvT and 18 PvP.
Cool. Weird that the amount of mirrors on aligulac is so much higher, the other results are similar and could just be aligulac still missing a few games.
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
12/10/6 isn't TvT league, what's up with the random hyperbole? If anything, it points in the direction of Blizzard's premise: "zerg is a little too weak", and it continues to make their conclusion of 'let's offer a TvP patch' senseless.
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
12/10/6 isn't TvT league, what's up with the random hyperbole? If anything, it points in the direction of Blizzard's premise: "zerg is a little too weak", and it continues to make their conclusion of 'let's offer a TvP patch' senseless.
Notice again: 8 Zergs placed 3rd in the brackets, so if you take Top 3, the balance is really good.
It's something to keep an eye out on, but SSL only reinforces the thought Zerg "might possibly be a tad on the weak side". No more conclusions to be drawn.
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
12/10/6 isn't TvT league, what's up with the random hyperbole? If anything, it points in the direction of Blizzard's premise: "zerg is a little too weak", and it continues to make their conclusion of 'let's offer a TvP patch' senseless.
When I was writing it it was 8/11/5(6), so at that time it was turning into TvT league. So... yeah. This.
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
12/10/6 isn't TvT league, what's up with the random hyperbole? If anything, it points in the direction of Blizzard's premise: "zerg is a little too weak", and it continues to make their conclusion of 'let's offer a TvP patch' senseless.
Notice again: 8 Zergs placed 3rd in the brackets, so if you take Top 3, the balance is really good.
It's something to keep an eye out on, but SSL only reinforces the thought Zerg "might possibly be a tad on the weak side". No more conclusions to be drawn.
I agree. Lots of terrans and protosses around lately, slightly less Z's. But when you look at the games, I think Zergs are still doing well vs protoss currently. And in ZvT, zergs might be a bit weak, but not by much IMHO. Now, finding a buff that only has a slight (yet still meaningful) effect in ZvT without impact PvZ can be a complex thing.
I did like Blizz's idea of buffing the overseer speed back then. I think it's that kind of change that could be required: no direct change to combat units, but something that will slightly help good zergs to get just that tad bit better. However, I don't think there is any point in re-buffing overseer speed. What other change could you guys think of ? Something involving creep spread maybe ? Although that might impact ZvP (and swarm host games).
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
12/10/6 isn't TvT league, what's up with the random hyperbole? If anything, it points in the direction of Blizzard's premise: "zerg is a little too weak", and it continues to make their conclusion of 'let's offer a TvP patch' senseless.
Notice again: 8 Zergs placed 3rd in the brackets, so if you take Top 3, the balance is really good.
It's something to keep an eye out on, but SSL only reinforces the thought Zerg "might possibly be a tad on the weak side". No more conclusions to be drawn.
I agree. Lots of terrans and protosses around lately, slightly less Z's. But when you look at the games, I think Zergs are still doing well vs protoss currently. And in ZvT, zergs might be a bit weak, but not by much IMHO. Now, finding a buff that only has a slight (yet still meaningful) effect in ZvT without impact PvZ can be a complex thing.
I did like Blizz's idea of buffing the overseer speed back then. I think it's that kind of change that could be required: no direct change to combat units, but something that will slightly help good zergs to get just that tad bit better. However, I don't think there is any point in re-buffing overseer speed. What other change could you guys think of ? Something involving creep spread maybe ? Although that might impact ZvP (and swarm host games).
(Disclaimer: Siege Tank Fanboy and Parade Push Disliker)
So, if I was given the 'power' to change things, I'd first start looking at how the matchup plays out. Essentially, it comes down to whether Terran can handle A) The Ling Baneling Flood and B) The Mutalisk Flock. Ways to handel A: Mines, Very good Micro, Tanks. Ways to handle B: Thors, Mines, being aggressive with Marines. I think the problem is in the strenght of the Mutalisk, actually. That makes it so Terran cannot rely on the Siege Tank for defense against Ling Bane, but NEEDS Mine + Thor to do the job Siege Tank + Positioning could do in WoL.
I would like to start thinking about reversing Mutalisk movement speed and reducing their Regeneration (The latter is problematic in PvZ as well, with Protoss being forced to baserace OR wait for Phoenix as Mutalisk are too mobile and regenerate too fast for a Stalker Templar defense to ward them of). We could then reduce the effectiveness of the Widow Mine (I kinda liked how it worked with 3 layered areas of damage) as the Siege Tank could fill the role of defending against Mass Ling Bane.
New problems that arise might include the Speedivac, which now moves on par with Mutalisk when boosted, but after a nerf will be faster. There is one way of fixing this which I like the most: Make the speed buff slightly longer (2s) but make the cooldown a lot longer (10s). This assures a drop still is a commitment. You can trade higher damage potential for the safety of your dropship, or risk getting fully defended and have a speedboost to return with. Not both. The effects on TvP shouldn't be too major (actually advantageous for P, I suppose, which is fine).
My prefered new (super old) metagame would be Marine Tank Medivac verse Ling Muta Bane. Swarm Host are a logical next transition for Zerg afterwards, which makes for pretty sick games vs MM. And a lategame Mechanical Transition for Terran becomes easier to achieve compared to WOL as a result of the maps
I just loved WOL Marine Tank vs MLB, don't hate me ^_^
/stupidbalancesuggestionsfromanoob
PS Might not have been totally clear: Essentially, I want the Mine to be changed into a quick response/ harassment role, whilst the Siege Tank returns to the role of controlling Space and REKK'N Ling Bane. Ideally, the Mine becomes even weaker and one supply, but that is even more of a major change to try for in a patch.
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
Funny thing is, the qualified zergs have no chance against more than half of the Terran column even with a balanced game. Solar, Dark, ByuL and Rogue? Would you really put them on par with Maru, Innovation and Flash (and others imo, but I'll just mention those 3 since those aren't debatable ;D)? Only Soulkey has proven himself top class.
Serious? Solar outdid Soulkey in results this year. He deserves to be considered a top-tier Zerg.
As for Dark, ByuL, and Rogue, they're all likely candidates to be breakout Zergs in the near future.
I'm actually not disappointed in the challenger league Zerg lineup at all. All of the best Zergs qualified minus soO and DRG. Leenock is the only surprise.
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
Funny thing is, the qualified zergs have no chance against more than half of the Terran column even with a balanced game. Solar, Dark, ByuL and Rogue? Would you really put them on par with Maru, Innovation and Flash (and others imo, but I'll just mention those 3 since those aren't debatable ;D)? Only Soulkey has proven himself top class.
Serious? Solar outdid Soulkey in results this year. He deserves to be considered a top-tier Zerg.
As for Dark, ByuL, and Rogue, they're all likely candidates to be breakout Zergs in the near future.
I'm actually not disappointed in the challenger league Zerg lineup at all. All of the best Zergs qualified minus soO and DRG. Leenock is the only surprise.
I agree, Solar should be (and IMHO deserves to be) considered as a top-tier Zerg.
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
12/10/6 isn't TvT league, what's up with the random hyperbole? If anything, it points in the direction of Blizzard's premise: "zerg is a little too weak", and it continues to make their conclusion of 'let's offer a TvP patch' senseless.
When I was writing it it was 8/11/5(6), so at that time it was turning into TvT league. So... yeah. This.
yeah man...thats such a tvt league...almost like 16/3/13 in GSL S1 this year right? ... ugh, gimme a break with this whining...in 2012 it was normal to have a lot of terrans in gsl and nobody was crying. not to mention these guys with the exception of like two players are the best players in the world. [and before u start ...yes i would gladly switch terminator or yonghwa for zest, rain or sos to have the best Ps there as well...too bad theyve lost against zergs and protosses ..terran imba right?] and ppl can say whatever they want about mirror matchups but tvt has always been considered better than zvz or pvp.
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
Funny thing is, the qualified zergs have no chance against more than half of the Terran column even with a balanced game. Solar, Dark, ByuL and Rogue? Would you really put them on par with Maru, Innovation and Flash (and others imo, but I'll just mention those 3 since those aren't debatable ;D)? Only Soulkey has proven himself top class.
Serious? Solar outdid Soulkey in results this year. He deserves to be considered a top-tier Zerg.
As for Dark, ByuL, and Rogue, they're all likely candidates to be breakout Zergs in the near future.
I'm actually not disappointed in the challenger league Zerg lineup at all. All of the best Zergs qualified minus soO and DRG. Leenock is the only surprise.
Yup. I wouldn't even call Rouge a break-out player. He has been pretty darn strong in proleauge at times and has many great results to his name in the last half year. At this point, very few exceptions aside, he is only losing to the very best players in the world while beating same ones at many occasions: Zest, herO, Parting, Solar, Flash to name some of the who-is-who in Korean Starcraft he has beaten lately. If he improves his ZvZ that guy has it in him to go far very soon.
On December 12 2014 01:06 Samx wrote: Quite surprised nobody bring up how Taeja's 4 skill mines wiped out Curious's flock of 20+ mutas in 0.1 second. Oh wait. There was 1 muta remaining.
At least call them winner mines or whiner mines if you want to make it stick!
On December 11 2014 18:48 deacon.frost wrote: Yay, SSL turning into TvT league. But why to care, Terrans are just better, right?
Well, at least I can skip the league. Edit>(also the qualified zerg column is just ridiculous)
Funny thing is, the qualified zergs have no chance against more than half of the Terran column even with a balanced game. Solar, Dark, ByuL and Rogue? Would you really put them on par with Maru, Innovation and Flash (and others imo, but I'll just mention those 3 since those aren't debatable ;D)? Only Soulkey has proven himself top class.
Serious? Solar outdid Soulkey in results this year. He deserves to be considered a top-tier Zerg.
As for Dark, ByuL, and Rogue, they're all likely candidates to be breakout Zergs in the near future.
I'm actually not disappointed in the challenger league Zerg lineup at all. All of the best Zergs qualified minus soO and DRG. Leenock is the only surprise.
People seem to think I said that ByuL, Dark and co are bad players. They're obviously good players. They're also obviously not of the caliber of the 3 Terran players I mentioned. And there are several more Terrans in that qualified list that are of at least a similar skill level. "Candidates to be breakout Zergs in the near future" does not equal "top class" to me.
My mistake on Solar though, he did beat really good players.
My point was actually that in eras where a race is massively underpowered, you don't see "breakout players" of the weakest race. So yeah, I don't consider the SSL qualifiers a proof that Zerg is massively underpowered and that it's a TvT fest like I've read. Some decent and really good players qualified, from the 3 races, it happens that they are a bit fewer of Zergs, so maybe Zerg is a bit unfavored right, but that's about it. It's absolutely not at the level of imbalance of a 1-1-1 vs Protoss era or a "BL-infestor" vs everything era.
On December 11 2014 06:17 EngrishTeacher wrote: I'm doing a psych paper right now, and this thread is a fucking cognitive biases gold mine from all races.
For the sake of productive discussion, please stop it with the hyperboles.
Don't think you need any education to understand that there is a lot of confirmation bias going on here. Everyone agrees on that, that the people that don't agree with them are biased, and a fair few acknowledge that they are biased themselves.
Question is, which are the hyperboles, and which aren't? Try figuring that out in an unbiased way!
On December 16 2014 14:03 The_Templar wrote: I'm confused. There are no more changes, currently? It's not really much of a nerf either...
It changes quite a bit since a single widow mine will no longer kill Sentries and Hts with splash and you need 1 more hit to kill zealots with splash too. I like that they stick with this small change and will instead adjust the maps for even better balance.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D8jBHSm.png)
A minor change to a very versatile unit. Nice! 
![[image loading]](http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141122020150/thehungergames/images/f/f9/Famous-characters-Troll-face-Troll-face-poker-45046.png)
(and I still think it is plainly stupid you can abduct MS and that you have to have a hero unit in a no-hero game(herO and HerO do not count :D) (I know someone would otherwise play them ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Ver/patchzerg_fight.jpg)
