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On December 05 2014 08:50 xGameMamba wrote:Blizzard stated Zerg is underpowered. Now we're searching for solutions to fix that. There's no reason to still stick to the "my race isn't overpowered mimimi" Blizzard wants to fix Zerg over the map. I say fix Zerg with removing the hellbatbuff. It's better for the metagame overall. I dont say Hellbats are OP. Terran overall is OP against Zerg. So why dont remove a unnecessary kind of All-In to nerf Terran?
The OP reads "zerg is slighty underperforming" but sure lets translate that to Zerg is underpowered.
Did you know Blizzard also thinks the Ultralisk is good vs Marauders and weak vs Banshees? (check it out http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/ultralisk) so sure anything Blizzard says becomes an undeniable truth i guess :D
The thing is I dont want to say Terran is balanced or OP. I am of the opinion that i (and probably most people here) dont know enough about this game to judge on that (yet everyone does, funny huh?). So maybe we could wait for a new map pool before we tackle the incredible imbalance in TvZ.
Another thing i really want to mention since forever probably: arguing about balance with winrates being the only argument is the most stupid thing ever. If there are 3 godlike players from a certain race the winrate will be skewed. Also if the meta currently favors one race and the others have to develop an answer to keep up (something what happened quite frequently in brood war from what i heard?) winrates will be skewed. So we should consider other things as well.
On December 05 2014 10:30 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 05:52 Eiltonn wrote:
I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins.
If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over Mmh ForGG managed to win DreamHack Winter by doing exactly that 
I would say he won despite not by doing that :D ForGG didnt lose his hellions though so they could grant him the map vision he lost with his reapers. Besides that Life didnt abuse the reaper loss by baneling all inning him all the time. Probably because he was of the opinion that if he could handle Taeja in a macro game he could handle ForGG as well.
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The OP reads "zerg is slighty underperforming" but sure lets translate that to Zerg is underpowered. Did you know Blizzard also thinks the Ultralisk is good vs Marauders and weak vs Banshees? (check it out http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/ultralisk) so sure anything Blizzard says becomes an undeniable truth i guess :D
Are you serious? Because i can't take that serious...
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THE RETURN OF TEMPLAR OPENING! I'm excited to get on the ladder!
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On December 04 2014 03:47 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 03:44 stuchiu wrote:
So let me get this straight. After the Blink Toss era, Terran whined enough that they got both nerfs and godly maps.
Then Toss whined enough that they have now realized that maps are too godlike for Terran and are now considering nerfing mines.
And all this time, Zerg has been literally upheld by 3 players (soO/Solar/Life) all year and they get nothing.
What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs. I've done quite a bit of research on the topic... and my explanation is this: David Kim and his balance team is best with Zerg, and worst with Terran. Therefore, Terran overall, has had the most months where it was dominant in terms of balance than any other race. And this is simply because the Blizzard balance teams trust their own internal testing more than anything else, and therefore in the LOTV alpha, we saw Terran massively overpowered, just like they were in the WOL and HOTS Beta, because they suck at Terran. So they have to compensate for their own internal testing by making Terran incredibly powerful.
Pretty sure they make their balance changes based on PRO Feedback.
But anyway it wouldn't surprise me, that they have the least strong balance team playing terran, simply because it is the mechanically most demanding race but THEN it unveils its full strength. That is why 14hrs/day players like the korean pros have great results whereas we don't hear surprises like they are possible with toss/zerg from the NA/EU side of things (Naniwa, Stephano etc.) - I mean we never heard of a foreigner Terran that was consistantly good enough to beat Koreans and surprise. Sure we have QXC, Thorzain, Morrow.... but they are not as successful as the players mentioned above.
Therefore the whole whining from the community doesn't matter at all.
Because it clearly shows the game is balanced around what is the absolute limit of playing it (AKA Korean Pros) and not our opinion - which is good. As it will never be balanced beyond that anyways. Annoying for those who play terran and see no foreigner Terran ever rise consistantly but gettling lots of trash-talk in forums PLUS always having the feeling of having to do more for a win then the opponent (if race is != terran), which again is because it is mechanically more demanding and also rewarding.
And therefore Blizzard will change things again and again, until the balance is (based on their glorious 50% winrate system) fine.
But as long as the races are so different and noone seems to understand how hard it is actually to win with the other race, the wining, complaining and "imba" shouting will continue.
Because the terran will always say: other races are easier to play (pointing out that less mechanics are needed for the win)
the protoss will always be like "the others only need to spam units they lose, while we have to micro a lot" because protoss has less, but stronger units with spells and "tricks" (blink)
and zerg... well they complain about other things like WM, medivac, mule... whatever vs terran and forcefields vs toss.
and to the guy who mentioned, that the zerg race in 2014 was only able to win because of 3 or 4 players, I wonder if you saw the first half of 2014, where there was only ONE Terran that actually made it possible to win, that there were only protoss and zerg wins, that there were thousands of PvP and ZvZ but no TvT... there were some lesser protosses/zergs that consistantly beat some of the greatest terrans out of GSL down to Code B.
There was a MASSIVE imbalance the first half of the year, knocking out almost all Terrans before the RO16 (or 32?) in Code S.
So far I enjoy that there is more terran now again. Even the TvT which is definately the best mirror. Back and forth and not only roach vs roach or cheese vs cheese or mass some units and have one final fight.
I like it because the constant smackdown of each other during a map is great to watch and doesn't always rely on one simple trick.
But then... back to topic: I like the changes made to the WM, hope it does something but not too much. Protoss can play fast expand/greedy very safe, even skipping some units in the beginning. Making a XvP interesting from the very first minutes must be the key. Before June a TvP wasn't interesting before minute 9, so you could watch something different. And some of the fights then took 10 secs and the game was over. I like it to be more aggressive, like every player trying to constantly trade, and trying to gain advantages. Lets see if that happens with LOTV again
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On December 04 2014 03:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 03:44 stuchiu wrote:
So let me get this straight. After the Blink Toss era, Terran whined enough that they got both nerfs and godly maps.
Then Toss whined enough that they have now realized that maps are too godlike for Terran and are now considering nerfing mines.
And all this time, Zerg has been literally upheld by 3 players (soO/Solar/Life) all year and they get nothing.
What this has taught me is that Zerg players need to bitch harder if they ever want to have good maps/buffs. And to think we were once the "whiny race" xD Even Jinro is confused:
Because all Terrans were banned or resignated to whine by the end of WOL, Zerg players even called terran things imba when the great days of Brood Lord Winfestor were at its "best". So whining although winning everyithing.
But I guess that was for every race, Gom TvT - there were Terrans whining, 2014 there were Protosses whining.
Huk pointing out that the biggest challenge with terran is, to choose with which unit you want to win. What he didn't say in his tweet (possibly ran out of character, a polite Canadian as he is, he for sure wointed to point that out) is, that as protoss he didn't even HAVE to choose in the better part of 2014, because blink-allins worked just fine
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LOTV kind of sucks for HOTS... Blizzard isn't going to make big changes that change dynamic they're just going to be making small nudges and save the big stuff for the 40$ price sticker.
Sorry Protoss fans but watching someone convert all their minerals into zealots and all their gas into blah blah has always been very uninspiring to me.
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On December 04 2014 04:20 Promised_pain wrote:
"We’re seeing that Terran looks slightly stronger than the other two races, and Zerg is underperforming slightly in both matchups."
TvP Patch. Ok, makes sense.
I have seen tons of such posts from Blizzard, stating Terran is undeperforming but things that were changed did not adress this issue. Like "Terran is undperforming in lategame" change was vision range of Mothercore to make Blink Allins less effective. Or they made the orbital faster or something like that.
If they have the feeling that Zerg is underperforming right now (I think so too) they will make changes, just like they did (after more then half a year) with terran. Relax. Also Lotv coming
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Can Blizzard really justify a $40 price tag on LOTV? Shame on them..
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On December 06 2014 07:08 Gamegene wrote:
LOTV kind of sucks for HOTS... Blizzard isn't going to make big changes that change dynamic they're just going to be making small nudges and save the big stuff for the 40$ price sticker.
Sorry Protoss fans but watching someone convert all their minerals into zealots and all their gas into blah blah has always been very uninspiring to me.
Yeah I kinda feel the format of having an RTS game with two expansions spanned over several years has been detrimental towards balancing sc2. Always felt like getting things right was never heavily prioritized as their will be another expansion coming in x years that will shake the game up. I understand why ActiBlizz have done it from a business point of view, but looking at it as a gamer it has not been the best model quite honestly. Miss the old days when a game would come out followed by its expansion the next year - done job. Then they would be off designing the next game.
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On December 06 2014 07:24 parkufarku wrote:
Can Blizzard really justify a $40 price tag on LOTV? Shame on them..
This has exactly NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. Shame on you.
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Finally i can start playing sc2 after this patch again, i just stopped because of the mine, its just not fun to play against. You cant be creative you cant even do anything remotely wrong because 1 slip is insta GG. from early to late, you need to be on full allert at all time, spread your bases thin because you need to stay on equall eco (wich was near impossible).
Just for all the zergs out there, they obviously stated they noticed how zergs are a little bit less strong. they didnt introduce any racial changes because the % arent yet in favour of that. So i assume the maps will in every matchup be more zerg favoured, okayish for protoss, and bad for terran. Because the race has been so dominant lately.
Terran QQ is inevitable because thats the nature of the beast. If you cant outmultitask/outplay him at the same time you cant win, but if you can you win, you win by a huge margin ussually (because you can actually enter that unlimited potential of MMM)
Dont forget, terran units are most cost efficient because of mule and fast reproduction costs, so if you slip up your first engage you can (if you are better at macro and micro) always get back. Protoss can't lose any units early game because it severly weakens there defence wich they need to have the money to tech up. And zerg needs to choose wheter they go eco or units thus hurting themselves every time they need to defend or attack.
I feel with this slight widow mine nerf, it finally got to that sweet spot, where it can do economic damage, but isnt an all round, harrass+offensive unit in pvt, but more an actuall support/harrass unit.
Not dictating the game anymore, nor be a huge threat, atleast with correct micro from the toss. Because blasting to red still means you need to pull back to either regen shields or try to soak up more mine shots. I also feel archons early game became a bit more accessible because of it even if its just 10 damage to shields less, the unit mainly consists out of shields.
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So i assume the maps will in every matchup be more zerg favoured, okayish for protoss, and bad for terran
The maps shouldn't be in zerg's favor, there should just be less one-sided ones. They should just remove maps like Nimbus or Catallena with abmyssal winrates and have more balanced maps like Overgrowth or KSS around. Then they can also do slightly favored ones like Merry Go Round or Frost and everyone should be happy.
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On December 06 2014 07:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +So i assume the maps will in every matchup be more zerg favoured, okayish for protoss, and bad for terran The maps shouldn't be in zerg's favor, there should just be less one-sided ones. They should just remove maps like Nimbus or Catallena with abmyssal winrates and have more balanced maps like Overgrowth or KSS around. Then they can also do slightly favored ones like Merry Go Round or Frost and everyone should be happy.
I hope so.
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nuuuuuuu no one is gonna use mines in tvp anymore
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On December 04 2014 03:23 OtherWorld wrote:
FFS Blizzard when will you learn that changing two variables at the same bad is not a good idea... Start by changing the map pool, then see if the imbalance persists. If it does, try your changes.
Well same can be said for when they added this change. Taking it out again would simply reiterate your point, they shouldn't have changed this along with other things.
Glad to see blizzard listening to the majority of the player base and taking feedback. I feel starcraft has came a long way and its continuing to go in the right direction.
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On December 05 2014 22:48 KrOmander wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote:
- Tresher
This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum.
I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times.
Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
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My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple.
Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS.
Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that.
You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better. Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
Properly controlling a Swarm Host based game -IS- hard.
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On December 05 2014 23:07 Eiltonn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 08:50 xGameMamba wrote:Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo Blizzard stated Zerg is underpowered. Now we're searching for solutions to fix that. There's no reason to still stick to the "my race isn't overpowered mimimi" Blizzard wants to fix Zerg over the map. I say fix Zerg with removing the hellbatbuff. It's better for the metagame overall. I dont say Hellbats are OP. Terran overall is OP against Zerg. So why dont remove a unnecessary kind of All-In to nerf Terran? The OP reads "zerg is slighty underperforming" but sure lets translate that to Zerg is underpowered. Did you know Blizzard also thinks the Ultralisk is good vs Marauders and weak vs Banshees? (check it out http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/ultralisk) so sure anything Blizzard says becomes an undeniable truth i guess :D
"Anti-armored ground units like Marauders can also crack through Ultralisks' reinforced carapaces as long as they can keep the Ultralisk at range by kiting it with Stimpack's movement speed increase" = "Ultralisk is good vs Marauders"?
Weird interpretation.
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On December 06 2014 07:30 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 07:24 parkufarku wrote:
Can Blizzard really justify a $40 price tag on LOTV? Shame on them.. This has exactly NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. Shame on you.
Backseat moderating. I was responding to the above posts. Terran scum.
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On December 06 2014 10:46 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 07:30 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 06 2014 07:24 parkufarku wrote:
Can Blizzard really justify a $40 price tag on LOTV? Shame on them.. This has exactly NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. Shame on you. Backseat moderating. I was responding to the above posts. Terran scum.
May I backseat temp ban you for this. Every Terran is a gentleman and a scholar. It is known.
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On December 06 2014 09:24 ooDi wrote:
nuuuuuuu no one is gonna use mines in tvp anymore
If Terrans don't have a super OP unit they won't use it right ?
Wm still a strong unit for his ridiculous prize, even without the AOE the unit worth the cost. So -20shield doesn't kill the unit at all in TvP.
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EPT
