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I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation.
I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245
Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it.
I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"?
It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. 
Thanks
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it. The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat! ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran! Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine! Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!! Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;( best wishes, Mamba
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On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote:I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. Thanks Show nested quote +Balancechangesuggestion: Reverse the hellbatbuff
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it. The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat! ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran! Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine! Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!! Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;( best wishes, Mamba
They are not making the mappool Zerg favored. The stop keeping it Terran favored.
Hellbat rushes are a pain in the ass, but not breaking the matchup. These sorts rushes are really annoying because they turn beautiful matchups in low skill information gambles, but zerg has it's fair share of them too.
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On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote:I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. Thanks Show nested quote +Balancechangesuggestion: Reverse the hellbatbuff
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it. The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat! ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran! Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine! Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!! Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;( best wishes, Mamba
Gamemamba, not everyone agrees ZvT is Terran favored, I for one don't. Hellbats are not a problem currently for Zergs that scout deliberatly, like they want to. You play a race in a probably reactive style (like most Zergs), but you cannto react if you do not scout. Hellbats force you to react. End of story.
Just like Terran reacts vs Roaches and Protoss reacts against Proxy Hatches. Scout, React, Win.
Hellbat pushes are NOT unholdable by any stretch of the imagination, so I don't understand your balance change at all.
What everybody DOES agree on; Maps suck for balance atm.
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The problem is you cant play reactive on something which is as difficult to scout as hellbat.
Is it standard 8Hellion Banshee?
Or is it 8Hellbat Banshee?
It turns a Matchup which is all based around incredible Mechanics and sick micro into a coinflip.
Should i build banes? Should I not?
The difference is one building with the size of 3x3 that Terran can place whereever they want.
Its so hard for Zerg to know what exactly is coming towards them. 4 Marines deny Overlordsscouts so easily.
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and next season in the world of pro level sc2 Terrans will probably be struggling quite badly vs Protoss. Have to give props to those Koreans, they sure know how to exploit a balance change to the fullest :p
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On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote:
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced.
So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through.
Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot).
--> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion:
Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
a
Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Also your argumentation has actually no arguments you just state the hellbat is op thats pretty much it.
I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins.
If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over, because you won´t be able to scout what zerg is doing and you need every hellion/unit against roach bane busts.
I would like to see a new mappool before changes to the balance are done tbh, though the 20 shield damage nerf to the mine is worth a try if everyone complains that zealot heavy HT openings aren´t viable anymore (i guess splitting zealots vs mines ain´t possible huh?)
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Back to the "Wisdom of the crowd".
For me if any kind of that system would be enabled, it would lead to the following situation:
One race does well because of whatever, to deep to write it up here: Now this race is terran
There will be alot of guys comlaining about this strong race, while terrans will try to "defend" their race. One million aligulac statistic experts mega analyst broker master posts later, they might still talk about the right amount of games, the right players and the bla bla for their statistic, but all other people involved will still have the feeling "terran strong" and nerf it. Because it is way easier to nerf a race then buffing one.
The crowd will talk about terran nerfs, because they are strong and somepeople even will still complain about 2010/2011 when terran was hugh and the nerf time will begin. Terran will become weaker and weaker, zergs want to nerf the hellbat and the mine, protoss are annyoed by the mine and the marine, mules are bad ass and scans are worse!
After time terran will be weak, zerg and protoss are strong. When now some terran will complain, we will see answers like "loool now it is balanced" or "you have been so strong last month, now it is is our time". I mean, people still complain about GomTvT, about Brofestor and about Blinkmadness, the three major unbalanced times we had. They will not forgett, even when there were only 2 Terrans in Code S left and only one Terran could achieve victorys in 10k Premires, we saw people shouting for terran op like we find now terrans cry for toss op.
Give this situation charismatic opinionmakers and blop, you will see one race falling down. That must not be terran, it will just be the race, that is doing well when this kind of balance system is started.
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On December 05 2014 06:00 Clonester wrote:
Back to the "Wisdom of the crowd".
For me if any kind of that system would be enabled, it would lead to the following situation:
One race does well because of whatever, to deep to write it up here: Now this race is terran
[edit]
Give this situation charismatic opinionmakers and blop, you will see one race falling down. That must not be terran, it will just be the race, that is doing well when this kind of balance system is started.
The "Wisdom of the Crowds" idea is designed specifically to deal with situations like this. Charismatic opinion-makers have power because of their status and loquacity and thus create problems in many democratic systems as well as all undemocratic ones, as you may well imagine.
Here is how it works:
A properly designed "wisdom" system strips away the individual to replace it with a collective anonymous decision. Just like a traditional democratic system which is designed to choose between two or more alternatives. You are excused to think these are the same thing, but they are not. A "wisdom" system is not designed to choose between alternatives per se, but to put a number/value/whatever on an unknown entity by a large anonymous reasonably well-informed crowd.
To be even more specific, democracy is choosing between a predetermined set of options, A, B or C (or more). Wisdom system are about setting a value on a specific parameter X. (In SCII this may very well be the damage done by widow mines say, or oracles or any other unit)
Thoughts?
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right now there is 2 terrans in the top 25 NA GM list. TWO!
terran so OP.
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On December 05 2014 04:18 pure.Wasted wrote:
If we replace ForGG with a random GM Terran at the exact moment ForGG decided to transition out of mech and into bio, the GM Terran doesn't just magically beat Life. In fact, he doesn't stand a chance. The question is... would you, with your hand over your heart, say that there's no way Innovation ever loses to a Baneling bust from a GM Zerg? I wonder.
Well that depends. Does Innovation make a mistake? Because see that's the thing. Life could totally lose to a GM Terran in that situation if he makes a big mistake, like a-moving some hydras or focusing his own hatch. What happens is, when you see that happen, you're able to identify this as a mistake, and so you don't count this as the terran winning, you count this as Life losing. If Inno loses to a GM Zerg's baneling bust, it will be his mistake as well. He didn't scout it, or he played a build that was so greedy that he couldn't react to it even after having scouted it. There is no reason to differentiate between those two types of mistakes. And yet people do, all the time.
I'm actually glad that you chose Inno for this because he's one of the people who annoy me the most in that regard. He will do such stupid things sometimes like when he scv pulled vs Panic who was on two bases and had 8 cannons... So yeah, I could totally see Inno specifically losing to that baneling bust. And then people come and say Inno is the best terran in the world... Completely dismissing that part of the game he's very weak at...
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On December 05 2014 07:27 Tzela wrote:
right now there is 2 terrans in the top 25 NA GM list. TWO!
terran so OP.
Sure, I guess the top 25 in a server where there are more maphackers than progamers in GM alone is a good indicator of the current balance.
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On December 05 2014 08:08 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 07:27 Tzela wrote:
right now there is 2 terrans in the top 25 NA GM list. TWO!
terran so OP. Sure, I guess the top 25 in a server where there are more maphackers than progamers in GM alone is a good indicator of the current balance.
NA terrans are known to be the best. Just look at the macro monster avilo.
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Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo
Blizzard stated Zerg is underpowered.
Now we're searching for solutions to fix that.
There's no reason to still stick to the "my race isn't overpowered mimimi"
Blizzard wants to fix Zerg over the map.
I say fix Zerg with removing the hellbatbuff.
It's better for the metagame overall.
I dont say Hellbats are OP. Terran overall is OP against Zerg. So why dont remove a unnecessary kind of All-In to nerf Terran?
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On December 05 2014 08:50 xGameMamba wrote:Blizzard stated Zerg is underpowered. Now we're searching for solutions to fix that. There's no reason to still stick to the "my race isn't overpowered mimimi" Blizzard wants to fix Zerg over the map. I say fix Zerg with removing the hellbatbuff. It's better for the metagame overall. I dont say Hellbats are OP. Terran overall is OP against Zerg. So why dont remove a unnecessary kind of All-In to nerf Terran?
For a very simple reason. It's established that the map pool that we have now isn't a balanced one, it's been specifically designed to help terrans. Following that, it makes sense to see how terran fares on a map pool that has a different set goal, before we decide we should change something else.
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On December 05 2014 05:52 Eiltonn wrote:
I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins.
If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over
Mmh ForGG managed to win DreamHack Winter by doing exactly that 
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On December 05 2014 05:52 Eiltonn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote:
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced.
So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through.
Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot).
--> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion:
Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
a Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo Also your argumentation has actually no arguments you just state the hellbat is op thats pretty much it. I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over, because you won´t be able to scout what zerg is doing and you need every hellion/unit against roach bane busts. I would like to see a new mappool before changes to the balance are done tbh, though the 20 shield damage nerf to the mine is worth a try if everyone complains that zealot heavy HT openings aren´t viable anymore (i guess splitting zealots vs mines ain´t possible huh?)
I do the Roach / Baneling / Speedling all in a lot, it is really easy for Terran to stop this all in now, all they do is make banshees, every Terran makes Banshees now, and it is extremely easy to stop this without even knowing it is coming. And it is easy to tell when Zerg is going to do this all in. Maybe a few months ago Terran was having a harder time to stop this all in( Maybe one of the ONLY good all ins Zerg has available...) ... and I kind of disagree with the Hellbat thing, they are too strong but I think the real problem is still with widowmines vs Zerg, in combination with Widowmines, the hellbats become a lot stronger, I do agree the hellbat all ins are stupid and too strong, but I think all together widowmines and hellbats need to be changed....
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On December 05 2014 07:22 Spinoza wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 06:00 Clonester wrote:
Back to the "Wisdom of the crowd".
For me if any kind of that system would be enabled, it would lead to the following situation:
One race does well because of whatever, to deep to write it up here: Now this race is terran
[edit]
Give this situation charismatic opinionmakers and blop, you will see one race falling down. That must not be terran, it will just be the race, that is doing well when this kind of balance system is started. The "Wisdom of the Crowds" idea is designed specifically to deal with situations like this. Charismatic opinion-makers have power because of their status and loquacity and thus create problems in many democratic systems as well as all undemocratic ones, as you may well imagine. Here is how it works: A properly designed "wisdom" system strips away the individual to replace it with a collective anonymous decision. Just like a traditional democratic system which is designed to choose between two or more alternatives. You are excused to think these are the same thing, but they are not. A "wisdom" system is not designed to choose between alternatives per se, but to put a number/value/whatever on an unknown entity by a large anonymous reasonably well-informed crowd. To be even more specific, democracy is choosing between a predetermined set of options, A, B or C (or more). Wisdom system are about setting a value on a specific parameter X. (In SCII this may very well be the damage done by widow mines say, or oracles or any other unit) Thoughts?
Wisdom of the Crowds works for situations with defined questions and "right" answers that can gradually achieve agreement among the collective. It doesn't work for situations where there isn't a right answer that could be solved in a creative fashion, because the "crowd" will have a million different ideas and not form a mostly unanimous agreement on any of them.
It's particularly problematic for game design like StarCraft, which is competitive and balanced against three different races; any positive balance change will benefit roughly a third of the collective and hurt the other two-thirds, so you either get change paralyzation (see: US Congress) or the benefit will almost always swing towards whichever race is the most popular at the moment, IMO.
Or, just look at the criticisms here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds#Criticism
Lanier's three conditions for the success of collective wisdom I think are particularly relevant here; game design fails all three.
TL;DR: "Too many cooks spoil the broth."
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Its a great thing that Blizzard wants to balance through the maps first. This shows they learn from the past.
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On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote:I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. Thanks Show nested quote +Balancechangesuggestion: Reverse the hellbatbuff
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it. The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat! ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran! Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine! Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!! Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;( best wishes, Mamba
Looked on your bnet post, clicked profile, started giggling, than made a poker face, than almost bleached my eyes. Do me a favor learn to play ZvT at least on top diamond level than write articles which starts like "Dont even argue about it"
Second thing, if you can read, than please on ok WaKka ZvT guide... His easy build order can win you any ZvT time if its executed properly and he described every possible situal that can happen.
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Saying that map imbalances are the problem are a little strange, considering how they all were one-sided imbalances.
For example, if the base matchup balance was 45-55 and we have maps with 40-60 and 50-50 type winrates, it just might be that the base imbalance is the issue and the maps themselves would otherwise be quite balanced with some favoring the other race a little. That's why I wonder how they specify that it's precisely the maps that cause the imbalance because fixing an imbalanced matchup just by making maps that favor the other race seems rather short-sighted and can mess the other matchups up.
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