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On December 05 2014 08:50 xGameMamba wrote:Blizzard stated Zerg is underpowered. Now we're searching for solutions to fix that. There's no reason to still stick to the "my race isn't overpowered mimimi" Blizzard wants to fix Zerg over the map. I say fix Zerg with removing the hellbatbuff. It's better for the metagame overall. I dont say Hellbats are OP. Terran overall is OP against Zerg. So why dont remove a unnecessary kind of All-In to nerf Terran?
+1 All said.
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Honestly hellbats feel more right with only the armory requirement, it makes no sense to require an extra upgrade for their transformation. I would be ok with a nerf to red-flame damage (and maybe put that nerfed damage amount back on blue-flame damage after the upgrade).
Wouldn't that be ok?
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It is pointless to disscuss a single unit balance vise. When the map-pool is more balanced and when it stays the same for more than one seasson, then you can really balance out the units into details.
Until that happens you have way to much ground to cover and considering they are changing map-pool every seasson, they are doing very good job at balancing, considering the constant map changes.
IMHO what they should do, is create like 21 maps, as balances maps as possible, and just rotate them in and out each seasson.
With a fixed map-pool like that, they would have much easier job at actually recognising balance issues caused by units.
I mean, imagine a compleatly flat map, no ramps no clifs, no nothing, just minerals and gas, othervise 0 obstacles.
Suddenly you have a problem with Zerg being OP as hell, but you can't just fix their units, we just have to have nice balanced map pool first, so i really like what they are planing to do right now.
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On December 05 2014 18:31 ZenithM wrote:
Honestly hellbats feel more right with only the armory requirement, it makes no sense to require an extra upgrade for their transformation. I would be ok with a nerf to red-flame damage (and maybe put that nerfed damage amount back on blue-flame damage after the upgrade).
Wouldn't that be ok?
prettysure theve already done that because of hellbat drops in the past XD
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On December 05 2014 11:44 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 05:52 Eiltonn wrote:On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote:
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced.
So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through.
Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot).
--> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion:
Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
a Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo Also your argumentation has actually no arguments you just state the hellbat is op thats pretty much it. I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over, because you won´t be able to scout what zerg is doing and you need every hellion/unit against roach bane busts. I would like to see a new mappool before changes to the balance are done tbh, though the 20 shield damage nerf to the mine is worth a try if everyone complains that zealot heavy HT openings aren´t viable anymore (i guess splitting zealots vs mines ain´t possible huh?) I do the Roach / Baneling / Speedling all in a lot, it is really easy for Terran to stop this all in now, all they do is make banshees, every Terran makes Banshees now, and it is extremely easy to stop this without even knowing it is coming. And it is easy to tell when Zerg is going to do this all in. Maybe a few months ago Terran was having a harder time to stop this all in( Maybe one of the ONLY good all ins Zerg has available...) ... and I kind of disagree with the Hellbat thing, they are too strong but I think the real problem is still with widowmines vs Zerg, in combination with Widowmines, the hellbats become a lot stronger, I do agree the hellbat all ins are stupid and too strong, but I think all together widowmines and hellbats need to be changed....
So u are claiming that Roach/ Bane/ Ling allin is ez to stop, still u are doing it alot? I understand... Pls be real for the sake of the game and not for ur own. We can start discussing how hard it is to hold any allin that P, Z and T have in store...
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I play zerg so not affected by the suggested change, but sounds very reasonable. Also approve in general of the approach of scaling back a too extreme change rather than removing it entirely or balancing it by something else. I equally approve of using the map pool to fine-tune balance.
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If there was any change I could make, it would be reduce (remove) widow mine damage bonus vs shields. Great job Blizzard!
It was super annoying how the mine did EXACTLY enough damage to 1 shot a stalker or oracle while the AOE did exactly enough to 1 shot sentires, high templar and observers... Its still going to be pretty annoying that mines will still 1 shot probes and drones but not SCVs though.
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On December 05 2014 19:47 paddyz wrote:
If there was any change I could make, it would be reduce (remove) widow mine damage bonus vs shields. Great job Blizzard!
It was super annoying how the mine did EXACTLY enough damage to 1 shot a stalker or oracle while the AOE did exactly enough to 1 shot sentires, high templar and observers... Its still going to be pretty annoying that mines will still 1 shot probes and drones but not SCVs though.
the mine will still one shot oracles and stalkers, which is a good thing imo.
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Just bring back the maps from last season. Clearly the best maps we've ever played. The new maps have made all zerg players drop significantly in mmr.
The joy of playing now is not what it has been.
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On December 05 2014 19:16 Enigmasc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 18:31 ZenithM wrote:
Honestly hellbats feel more right with only the armory requirement, it makes no sense to require an extra upgrade for their transformation. I would be ok with a nerf to red-flame damage (and maybe put that nerfed damage amount back on blue-flame damage after the upgrade).
Wouldn't that be ok? prettysure theve already done that because of hellbat drops in the past XD
A bigger nerf, I meant. Because people seem to have troubles with regular hellbat pushes with bio. I think the push should exist but maybe should be less powerful or require more micro to be effective.
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On December 05 2014 21:20 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 19:16 Enigmasc wrote:On December 05 2014 18:31 ZenithM wrote:
Honestly hellbats feel more right with only the armory requirement, it makes no sense to require an extra upgrade for their transformation. I would be ok with a nerf to red-flame damage (and maybe put that nerfed damage amount back on blue-flame damage after the upgrade).
Wouldn't that be ok? prettysure theve already done that because of hellbat drops in the past XD A bigger nerf, I meant. Because people seem to have troubles with regular hellbat pushes with bio. I think the push should exist but maybe should be less powerful or require more micro to be effective.
It's not really different from a roach/baneling or a 1-1 roach rush though. Watch yesterdays IEM group C matchups if you want to see a lot of shit games showcasing the power of Terran and Zerg rushing...
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Huh, shouldn't there be some rushes in the game at least? And the hellbat+bio push isn't really a rush. Goddammit, it's on 2 bases and you don't really cut anything to get there. Since when did we start calling 2 base not-even-all-in builds rushes...
Do people really like the standard 3 CC before double eng bays, 4 hatch before pool kinda games? (And btw, I'm barely exaggerating ;D)
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On December 05 2014 21:36 ZenithM wrote:
Huh, shouldn't there be some rushes in the game at least? And the hellbat+bio push isn't really a rush. Goddammit, it's on 2 bases and you don't really cut anything to get there. Since when did we start calling 2 base not-even-all-in builds rushes...
Do people really like the standard 3 CC before double eng bays, 4 hatch before pool kinda games? (And btw, I'm barely exaggerating ;D)
well, I'm actually the one justifying the hellbat rush here though while you are thinking of ways to nerf it  . Even if it is with other such builds.
(makes me feel very dirty; even kind of cheap)
I definitely believe that all of those rushes are allin if you just scout them and react to them properly. Non of those transitions well, the banshee/hellbat probably best into Mech under the assumption that the zerg has opened ling/bling as he must for a standard game. I don't mind stuff like those in the game because you can actually scout them rather easily if you just invest a little into scouting it. But they don't make for good games and at least the 1-1 roach and the hellbat push both feel very lowskill.
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On December 05 2014 05:52 Eiltonn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote:
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced.
So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through.
Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot).
--> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion:
Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
a Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo Also your argumentation has actually no arguments you just state the hellbat is op thats pretty much it. I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over, because you won´t be able to scout what zerg is doing and you need every hellion/unit against roach bane busts. I would like to see a new mappool before changes to the balance are done tbh, though the 20 shield damage nerf to the mine is worth a try if everyone complains that zealot heavy HT openings aren´t viable anymore (i guess splitting zealots vs mines ain´t possible huh?)
On December 05 2014 16:30 PharaphobiaSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote:I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything.  Thanks Balancechangesuggestion: Reverse the hellbatbuff
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it. The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat! ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran! Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine! Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!! Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;( best wishes, Mamba Looked on your bnet post, clicked profile, started giggling, than made a poker face, than almost bleached my eyes. Do me a favor learn to play ZvT at least on top diamond level than write articles which starts like "Dont even argue about it" Second thing, if you can read, than please on ok WaKka ZvT guide... His easy build order can win you any ZvT time if its executed properly and he described every possible situal that can happen.
I agree with Eiltonn and Pharaphobia here. I dont understand how anyone can take this guy seriously. Worst thing is he is actually Masters on EU. This guy made a post on the German Forum some time ago saying Swarmhosts are mechanically demanding (!) . Whats kind of sad and frustrating is the fact that so many Zerg Players are jumping on the Train (ofc not without wanting to nerf Mines and Thors too) in a Thread that wants to start a discussion with the intro saying "Don´t argue about it".
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On December 05 2014 21:56 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 05:52 Eiltonn wrote:On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote:
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it.
The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat!
However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran!
Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced.
So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine!
Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?
Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through.
Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot).
--> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!!
Conclusion:
Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps.
a Dont even argue about it? What kind of intro into a post is that Oo Also your argumentation has actually no arguments you just state the hellbat is op thats pretty much it. I just wanted to note that zerg all ins are also freaking strong, Life managed to win Blizzcon with those all ins. If terran loses the initial reaper or gets his Hellions caught off guard most often its game over, because you won´t be able to scout what zerg is doing and you need every hellion/unit against roach bane busts. I would like to see a new mappool before changes to the balance are done tbh, though the 20 shield damage nerf to the mine is worth a try if everyone complains that zealot heavy HT openings aren´t viable anymore (i guess splitting zealots vs mines ain´t possible huh?) Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 16:30 PharaphobiaSC2 wrote:On December 05 2014 04:26 xGameMamba wrote:I'm really dissapointed in the way Blizzard is handling the situation. I wrote a thread about ZvT in the bnet forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/15522992245Please read it and tell me what you think about it. If you aggre please upvote my post, so Blizzard hopefully sees it. I hope this isn't against the rules, because i guess it's "kinda advertising"? It's just im really said atm, because I think my favourite matchup is gonna be broken the next season if Blizzard dont change anything. Thanks Balancechangesuggestion: Reverse the hellbatbuff
I think everybody aggres with the fact ZvT is Terran favored atm. Even Blizzard does, so dont even argue about it. The only reason why this Matchup is that broken is the Hellbat! ZvT Macrogames are wonderful to watch. Incredible mechanics are required and even more micro from both sides! The Hellbat is NOT. The Hellbatchange was made to buff Terran macrobioplay so their first pushes will be a little stronger if they manage to keep their hellions alive (1-1 Timing) However it also created TONS of strong all-ins for terran! Now Terran is extremly favored in the earlygame (until minute 10) while I would say mid/lategame is balanced. So this means standard bio macroplay is totally fine! Blizzard said they want to buff zerg with better maps. Hellbat all-Ins wont be worser on the new Maps!
YES you can balance the matchup with better zerg maps. But it's gonna be broken as hell!!!
Hellbatpushes will stay to strong, while the mid/lategame of terran will suffer!
Why do you want to weaken the wonderful skillful bioplay, while the problem is in the earlygame?Mines finally do the damage to prevent Zerg building 70 Banelings and roll through. Thors are preventing Zerg from going massmuta (at least it helps alot). --> Hellbats are not needed anymore!!! Conclusion: Dont make the Mappool Zerg favored! Reverse the hellbatbuff and put in some fair balanced Maps. Blizzard, I really hope you are reading this PLEASE fix the hellbat! I dont want to have my favourite matchup broken until LotV ;( best wishes, Mamba Looked on your bnet post, clicked profile, started giggling, than made a poker face, than almost bleached my eyes. Do me a favor learn to play ZvT at least on top diamond level than write articles which starts like "Dont even argue about it" Second thing, if you can read, than please on ok WaKka ZvT guide... His easy build order can win you any ZvT time if its executed properly and he described every possible situal that can happen. I agree with Eiltonn and Pharaphobia here. I dont understand how anyone can take this guy seriously. Worst thing is he is actually Masters on EU. This guy made a post on the German Forum some time ago saying Swarmhosts are mechanically demanding (!) . Whats kind of sad and frustrating is the fact that so many Zerg Players are jumping on the Train (ofc not without wanting to nerf Mines and Thors too) in a Thread that wants to start a discussion with the intro saying "Don´t argue about it".
Swarm Host play is mechanically demanding. Not as much the swarm hosts themselve, but everything around them. You need to macro so fucking well when going swarm hosts because you need creep, you need a million statics, for the millions of statics you need a million of drones for which you need to be on point with your injects. On 90% of the maps you have to mirror the opponents movement with your swarm hosts and their supporting air units, else a Protoss just gets to have fun cleaning up base after base with their favorite blinkateers while building up a huge Protoss Empire with a Golden Armarda behind. All the while you need to be on top of harassment, otherwise a single Warp Prism and all your tech is gone to throw away mineral units.
People just don't realize this because none of those things is an impressive mechanic on its own, but keeping all this shit going and dodgin bullet after bullet is one of the toughest zerg styles to play. Given, all of that only becomes hard if your opponent isn't clueless about how to fight vs Swarm Host styles, in such a scenario you can really just set and forget and wait until the 100th zealot and the 20th Archon has died to locust waves.
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On December 04 2014 03:18 Aeromi wrote:
Widow mine splash damage decreased from 40 +40 shields to 40 +20 shields (-15 to banelings)
fixed
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- Tresher
This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum.
I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times.
Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
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My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple.
Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS.
Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that.
You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
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On December 05 2014 22:24 xGameMamba wrote:
- Tresher
This guy is harasing me for no reason in the german bnet forum.
I once said i don't like mech and it's alot easier than bioplay, and since them he hates me.
He is a Silverleague Mechplayer and just cant understand that Swarmhost Mechanics with 4 Different hotkeygroups is hard to play, even I tryed to explain it to him several times.
Even Players like Petraeus, Kane or Hope aggree with that, and pointed it out on Stream more than just once.
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My Intro with "dont argue about it" is explained very simple.
Terran is to strong atm. BLIZZARD CONFIRMED THIS.
Now its time to search for possible solutions how to fix that problem. Blizzard want to do it over the mappool. I dont like that.
You dont have to agree with me in that point, buf if you're stick to the "mimimi nonono my race isnt overpowered" you're obviously not able to discuss about the topic, and you wont try to make the game better.
Mech is less mechanically demanding than bio (at least for me and most others I have talked to about it), but I have to say I found your post quite funny. I especially like the bit where you dismiss mech and then celebrate swarmhost play like it is the epitome of skill in sc2. I guess you lose to mech a lot? It is ok, I still suck at dealing with Protoss doomball armies in late game, but I will not be making whine posts on bnet forums about it.
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I play RoachMuta against Mech with a good Winrate.
I dont even play Swarmhost! Actually i hate them. I rather play aggressiv styles.
But i really respect players like Snute/Stephano etc. going for Swarmhosts, because I thibk it's really hard.
I practised Swarmhost a bit in the past.
I stopped to practise them because of 2 reasons
1. it was to hard for me, and it would have took me to long to be able to play them good enough.
2. Also I dont want to spend that much time in practising something which doesn't make fun.
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I don't think many Zergs enjoy playing SH tbh, they just do it because they feel they have to.
Edit: Ok this post was way too kind, so I'm going to add this:
And Zergs who like to play SHs other than in ZvZ deserve to be balancefucked by Blizzard ;D
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EPT
