Please no more Daedalus Point or huge maps though : don't bring stupid maps (retardedly wide ramps, Alterzim Stronghold like maps...) just to "help" Zergs.
To rebalance- Give the game a tribunal for the hundreds of thousands of hackers. Revamp warp gate, remove swarm hosts, change the properties of widow mine to dive like vulture mines, remove multiple creep tumour spawns, increase queen speed off creep, decrease scan costs, bring back scourge, decrease collossus range, increase bunker build time, decrease spore damage to bio, decrease warp prism health, increase overloard speeds, split air and ground mech attack upgrades, give zerg tier 3 ability to get 220 supply, give terran a an early game super anti-air unit, increase the food supply for ravens, decrease the gas cost for ghosts, make snipe a ghost upgrade, and for the love of god REMOVE XEL NAGA CAVERNS FROM MAP POOL FOR ALL TIME.
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
@sigm I think you're right about making maps specifically to 'favor' a given race is a strange way to balance matchups. Seems more likely this will just increase the chance for mirrors on ladder (I play zerg so I don't mind all that much).
I agree with the conservatives here that it's better to wait and see what things look like in the new map pool. Although I'd love to see fungals do extra damage to shields or banes have additional splash radius when they're manually detonated I'd rather avoid having HOTS zerg in the place that WOL zerg was at the end going into LOTV and miss out on all the love again...
Oh yeah I'm a diamond scrub on the China server so balance doesn't effect me anyway :D
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
So lets roll back the stupid thor buff and hellbat change and just make different maps then.
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
???
How can you call someone who made an all-kill in BW proleague a mediocre player?
ForGG won that game because he let his opponent think he was going mech, then went bio instead while the zerg had already invested heavily into swarm hosts. GG you can't really go SH against bio.
Marineking, how did he win those games? Mostly by defending the silly all ins people are trying against him. "Marineking hasn't been around for long and I have none of his games to study, I'll just all-in him" is exactly how all his opponents have played.
But this nerf to mine is a good one that will make zealot templar viable again.
That's the point. Terrans were whining for quite some time that not both their tech paths are viable... ... now they are and Zerg has 1 path to counter each of those paths.
If the Terran goes Bio: BLing/Muta is the answer. If the Terran goes Mech: Some kind of SwarmHost style is probably the way to go.
On the other side: If the Zerg goes Ling/Muta and the Terran goes Mech, it's kinda a Freewin, if he goes Swarmhosts he's still got a shot on winning. If the Zerg goes Roach/Hydra/Swarmhosts and the Terran goes Bio it's a freewin, if he goes Mech he's still got a shot on winning.
Yes, Zerg is supposed to be the reactionary race, but it'd be nice if there was at least a CHANCE to fight an army with the "wrong tech path".
Change the maps, nurff widow mine.. Awesome news from a protoss point of view. Widow mine splash was really imba I believe... Just bring back Bel'shires vestige for next season and it woudl be AWESOME oh wait...
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
???
How can you call someone who made an all-kill in BW proleague a mediocre player?
ForGG won that game because he let his opponent think he was going mech, then went bio instead while the zerg had already invested heavily into swarm hosts. GG you can't really go SH against bio.
Marineking, how did he win those games? Mostly by defending the silly all ins people are trying against him. "Marineking hasn't been around for long and I have none of his games to study, I'll just all-in him" is exactly how all his opponents have played.
But this nerf to mine is a good one that will make zealot templar viable again.
That's the point. Terrans were whining for quite some time that not both their tech paths are viable... ... now they are and Zerg has 1 path to counter each of those paths.
If the Terran goes Bio: BLing/Muta is the answer. If the Terran goes Mech: Some kind of SwarmHost style is probably the way to go.
On the other side: If the Zerg goes Ling/Muta and the Terran goes Mech, it's kinda a Freewin, if he goes Swarmhosts he's still got a shot on winning. If the Zerg goes Roach/Hydra/Swarmhosts and the Terran goes Bio it's a freewin, if he goes Mech he's still got a shot on winning.
Yes, Zerg is supposed to be the reactionary race, but it'd be nice if there was at least a CHANCE to fight an army with the "wrong tech path".
That's far from being the problem. If you've already invested too much in banelings vs mech then you're just not scouting AT ALL. Muta openings are not bad at all vs mech.
On December 04 2014 17:28 tokinho wrote: To rebalance- Give the game a tribunal for the hundreds of thousands of hackers. Revamp warp gate, remove swarm hosts, change the properties of widow mine to dive like vulture mines, remove multiple creep tumour spawns, increase queen speed off creep, decrease scan costs, bring back scourge, decrease collossus range, increase bunker build time, decrease spore damage to bio, decrease warp prism health, increase overloard speeds, split air and ground mech attack upgrades, give zerg tier 3 ability to get 220 supply, give terran a an early game super anti-air unit, increase the food supply for ravens, decrease the gas cost for ghosts, make snipe a ghost upgrade, and for the love of god REMOVE XEL NAGA CAVERNS FROM MAP POOL FOR ALL TIME.
None of these changes are relevant except tribunal for hackers
220 supply and multi creep support was the funniest ones #bronzebalance !
On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote: People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
???
How can you call someone who made an all-kill in BW proleague a mediocre player?
ForGG won that game because he let his opponent think he was going mech, then went bio instead while the zerg had already invested heavily into swarm hosts. GG you can't really go SH against bio.
Marineking, how did he win those games? Mostly by defending the silly all ins people are trying against him. "Marineking hasn't been around for long and I have none of his games to study, I'll just all-in him" is exactly how all his opponents have played.
But this nerf to mine is a good one that will make zealot templar viable again.
That's the point. Terrans were whining for quite some time that not both their tech paths are viable... ... now they are and Zerg has 1 path to counter each of those paths.
If the Terran goes Bio: BLing/Muta is the answer. If the Terran goes Mech: Some kind of SwarmHost style is probably the way to go.
On the other side: If the Zerg goes Ling/Muta and the Terran goes Mech, it's kinda a Freewin, if he goes Swarmhosts he's still got a shot on winning. If the Zerg goes Roach/Hydra/Swarmhosts and the Terran goes Bio it's a freewin, if he goes Mech he's still got a shot on winning.
Yes, Zerg is supposed to be the reactionary race, but it'd be nice if there was at least a CHANCE to fight an army with the "wrong tech path".
In theory, you're supposed to be able to tech switch way more easily with Zerg, it's not like you have to plant down 3 or 4 buildings of the same type to produce an adequate amount of their units.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
Soccer... Isn't that the sport where Greece won an european cup by turtling in defense the whole game and scoring one goal in counter attack in all of their matches against better opponents?
So when you say 'any other sport', you mean, 'except the one I'm using as an example'?
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
Then y nerf widow mines in pvt? In my opinion, blizzard should not issue any patch anymore and just let the game evolve itself. Or else, address the biggest issue now, they admit zerg being the weakest now, then they adjust tvp, how does that make sense?
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
Soccer... Isn't that the sport where Greece won an european cup by turtling in defense the whole game and scoring one goal in counter attack in all of their matches against better opponents?
So when you say 'any other sport', you mean, 'except the one I'm using as an example'?
Did they, or did they not have to play the whole 90mins or even longer? Was there any form of shortcut invovled how Greece won those games?
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
Then y nerf widow mines in pvt? In my opinion, blizzard should not issue any patch anymore and just let the game evolve itself. Or else, address the biggest issue now, they admit zerg being the weakest now, then they adjust tvp, how does that make sense?
I don't think u always have to look at statistics, if something feels very wrong. A Widow Mine blowing up 8 HT's is one of those feels. Then balance with maps to get the good statistics.
On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote: Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get.
Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed.
Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything.
Tanks are useless out of TvT dude.
Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid.
Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT....
That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game.
Did you see how Forgg used his tanks and banshee against life? ForGG made banshee Viking tank look imba.
this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
Yeah it's just really frustrating that Terran got buff after buff when they were a bit 'weaker'(It was not like zerg was doing any better but ok) And when we clearly need some love we just hear, oh sorry guys we will change the maps for you.. It's a pretty bad way to balance a game by making the whole mappool favored for one race. Zerg just has been doing the worst overall in the HoTS Zerg expansion so far, yet blizzard just only seems to care about PvT.
After the early-mid 2000s professional BW was balanced entirely via maps. It's really not a bad way to go about it.
Then y nerf widow mines in pvt? In my opinion, blizzard should not issue any patch anymore and just let the game evolve itself. Or else, address the biggest issue now, they admit zerg being the weakest now, then they adjust tvp, how does that make sense?
I don't think u always have to look at statistics, if something feels very wrong. A Widow Mine blowing up 8 HT's is one of those feels. Then balance with maps to get the good statistics.
If you manage to get your 8 templars killed by a mine, you've got a problem indeed, but it ain't the mine...
EPT
