On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
I'm missing the link between one of the oldest, overplayed rushes and innovating.
On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote: More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost.
Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
Do you think this would fly in any other sport?
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
(This isn't even getting into the fact that those football stars are remarkably talented individuals who have practiced very, very hard all their lives, and of the few in SC who have displayed comparable dedication, Has, San, and their ilk are nowhere in sight.)
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
I say leave it alone and let it all burn down... Everybody fend for themselves. This kind of conversation is poison for the community. It's also circular, it will never end.
It's not exciting, it doesn't add anything to the game, it just makes for many complaints about the game and destroys creative thought.
It rewards something that shouldn't be rewarded. Gratz on your opiate for the masses.
On December 04 2014 12:12 GGzerG wrote: So I feel widowmines are the most imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, this change doesn't seem like it will effect Zerg at all will it?
yea i have no clue what is going on. there's already a thread about this on battle.net forums.
On December 04 2014 12:12 GGzerG wrote: So I feel widowmines are the most imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, this change doesn't seem like it will effect Zerg at all will it?
I believe that it has been said that they will try to fix the vZerg imbalance through maps, so they're working on tweaking TvP. However, since they're not communicating with TL mapmakers about the map pool next year, I don't know what's going on.
On December 04 2014 12:12 GGzerG wrote: So I feel widowmines are the most imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, this change doesn't seem like it will effect Zerg at all will it?
I believe that it has been said that they will try to fix the vZerg imbalance through maps, so they're working on tweaking TvP. However, since they're not communicating with TL mapmakers about the map pool next year, I don't know what's going on.
Hopefully, they are working closely with some Korean mapmakers ><
On December 04 2014 12:12 GGzerG wrote: So I feel widowmines are the most imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, this change doesn't seem like it will effect Zerg at all will it?
I believe that it has been said that they will try to fix the vZerg imbalance through maps, so they're working on tweaking TvP. However, since they're not communicating with TL mapmakers about the map pool next year, I don't know what's going on.
Hopefully, they are working closely with some Korean mapmakers ><
Not just Korean mapmakers...just any mapmakers with sense. We have plenty non KR mapmakers here who get it.
On December 04 2014 12:12 GGzerG wrote: So I feel widowmines are the most imbalanced vs Zerg at the moment, this change doesn't seem like it will effect Zerg at all will it?
I believe that it has been said that they will try to fix the vZerg imbalance through maps, so they're working on tweaking TvP. However, since they're not communicating with TL mapmakers about the map pool next year, I don't know what's going on.
Hopefully, they are working closely with some Korean mapmakers ><
Not just Korean mapmakers...just any mapmakers with sense. We have plenty non KR mapmakers here who get it.
Yes, but the trouble is we know for a fact that they're not working with non-KR mapmakers. So either they're working with KR mapmakers, or they're not working with mapmakers at all.
Imagine two soccer teams playing, one of them has a very strong, balanced lineup of players (so... Germany) and the other one has Robben! Neymar!! Ronaldo!!! Messi!!!! but to balance this out they have no other players on the field. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They goal's empty. But... obviously they've practiced this supremely aggressive formation a lot more than any other team has practiced defending against this kind of lineup... shouldn't our aggressive all-stars have a chance?! Won't somebody give them a chance?!
Of course not. First of all, it's not even allowed, because it makes a farce of the competition. Second, although their team can theoretically put on pressure, it can theoretically score - they might even manage to score in practice once or twice - but they can't play a match over the course of 90 minutes. The players will get tired and they can't defend for shit. The team took too many shortcuts by sacrificing everything for an incredible offense.
But in SC2 this is legit play. You don't have to play 90 minutes. Just score twice early on and that's it, the game magically ends, and it doesn't matter that your opponent is better than you at EVERYTHING IN THE GAME EXCEPT THIS ONE THING that you chose to do.
That's fine, because Soccer and StarCraft competitive formats are different. In SC2 tournament play, it's almost always a Bo3 or Bo5 or Bo7. Therefore, an aggressive, cheesy game can be compared to a single play that would exist in a soccer match. It can be used to test your opponent's preparedness, or to catch a tired opponent off guard to clench a match in the final minutes. It's completely fair, and adds more depth to the game.
Therefore, I think the analogy of cheese being like a soccer team having an illegal lineup isn't accurate. I'd compare it more to a hockey game where one team pulls a goalie for an extra skater to go all-in. Or like in American Football, when you go for an onside kick or a fake field goal attempt. It's just a sneaky play that normally doesn't work, but if you've prepared it and you feel your opponent isn't able to handle it, you can pull it off.
I also thoroughly enjoy the depth that cheese adds to team league play in SC2. The idea that you can send one player in who excels at macro, to tire out a star player on the other team, and then follow it up with a sniper who has a well prepared cheese is amazing. Strategies like that always draw me in - and it's even more remarkable when the star player is able to win both games.
I don't want to eliminate aggressive openings. And inevitably sometimes the aggressive opening will just win. That's perfectly fine. What I'm not fine with is how easy many of these aggressive openings are to execute. And how easy some units in this game are to use. Certain spells, mechanics...
I think everyone will agree on this. But this comes back to the basic flaw that SC2 is too mechanically easy. Cheese was much more impressive in BW. However, as has been discussed a billion times on TL, Blizzard will never change the basic mechanics of the game.
If they do this change before dreampool ends, maybe Blizz could switch it back to the previous ladder maps. Im sure everyone would want to play considering the recent tournaments and of course Blizzcon. It would be nice to see how the balance change would play out on the regular maps.
On December 04 2014 14:01 CakeSauc3 wrote: Therefore, I think the analogy of cheese being like a soccer team having an illegal lineup isn't accurate. I'd compare it more to a hockey game where one team pulls a goalie for an extra skater to go all-in.
But a hockey team isn't going to play an entire game with their goalie cheesing it up on the ice. The fraction of a match that is decided by the goalie being out of the net is much smaller than the fraction of a SC2 series that's decided by a decision to Baneling bust.
In other words: if you want to do a weird play in any physical sport I can think of, you still have to be able to play the standard game throughout the rest of the match, the 95% where you're not doing weird plays. In SC2, if you elect to do a weird play and are relatively good at it... there is no rest of the match. You just got to decide that your opponent's multitasking, macro, and micro are all going to be meaningless, unless he 1) identifies the cheese, 2) knows how to deal with the cheese, 3) deals with the cheese without taking critical damage, 4) is able to transition back into a standard game. That's a monumental difference, IMO, and as a viewer I'm not thrilled about it.
Or like in American Football, when you go for an onside kick or a fake field goal attempt. It's just a sneaky play that normally doesn't work, but if you've prepared it and you feel your opponent isn't able to handle it, you can pull it off.
Sentry/Immortal doesn't normally work? Baneling/Roach busts versus Terran? Proxy Oracles? These things end games all the time. 2rax is practically a standard opening in TvZ at this point, although considering how much finesse it takes to execute and how frequently games transition into macro slugfests from then on, I think it's close to a gold standard for what aggressive openers should strive to be like. Not ideal from Zerg POV, but the risk/reward ratio seems right.
San just Sangated Jaedong to a 3-0 victory at DH:W. I think your "sneaky play that normally doesn't work" is a bit of a pipe dream at this point.
I think everyone will agree on this. But this comes back to the basic flaw that SC2 is too mechanically easy. Cheese was much more impressive in BW. However, as has been discussed a billion times on TL, Blizzard will never change the basic mechanics of the game.
Hey, Blizzard's nerfing the Colossus in LOTV and adding a full-time replacement. There's hope yet.
I always wondered about having maps that have a clear, if slight, advantage towards a certain race. The players who are at a disadvantage on said maps will simply veto them in ladder and tournament play, meaning that the maps will be played almost entirely by players who have the advantage, but in that case the advantage, whatever it is, is there no more, since the race that's disadvantaged isn't there in the map against you, So then, wouldn't that make maps like that basically pointless?
EPT
