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On December 04 2014 08:01 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 07:38 Big J wrote:On December 04 2014 07:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:On December 04 2014 06:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 04 2014 06:05 Musicus wrote:
That got me excited. Balance through maps ^_^! Please no more Daedalus Point or huge maps though : don't bring stupid maps (retardedly wide ramps, Alterzim Stronghold like maps...) just to "help" Zergs. Alterzim wasn't even a good Zerg map... The first half of its existance was a drop hell against Terran and the second half of it was every Protoss picking it in tournaments against zergs. Well my point was more "don't make retarded maps that obviously favor one race". It's not like Zerg is doing absolutely awful, more than T is doing so well lately and the WM slight nerf + map changes should solve that issue. If the next legit map pool contains maps as bad as Nimbus or Catallena were, I'll be really disappointed though.
Yeah, some of the maps are pretty bad for the current state of balance. But keep in mind that the maps were made when Terrans were doing bad which was at least partly because of bad maps for them. Then blizzard introduced them and changed the balance on top of that. Just doing one of those two things could have turned out OK.
Like the safety of Nimbus 3rd base and all the aggressive advantages Terran can get on the map make sense if you consider how with weaker widow mines it was a bit harder to push against Zerg on maps were the 3rd base was also harder to defend. E.g. on Frost, which was a great map but absolutly horrible for Terran after the widow mine nerf.
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I like this change! Tho I really wanted new maps
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I'm terran and I like it.
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On December 04 2014 07:35 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote:
More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost. Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders?
Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM."
Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded.
That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up.
Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
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^ The thing is, BW JD would never have lost to that kind of shit. JD (even though he's my biggest nerd crush of all time) just isn't all that great at SC2.
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On December 04 2014 08:00 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 07:47 parkufarku wrote:On December 04 2014 07:22 BisuDagger wrote:
Keep your widow mines and bring back the amulet Keep the amulet and bring back the SC1 storm. SC1 storm causing TvP problems? It's the maps, change the maps and balance will be restored. Keep your SC1 storms and give me back my vultures with spider mines. No particular reason, I just love vultures with spider mines.
To hard to find Pilots that like sitting on something that leaks radiation, we'll never get Vultures back ;_;
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Canada11355 Posts
On December 04 2014 08:42 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 07:35 Fecalfeast wrote:On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote:
More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost. Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders? Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM." Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded. That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up. Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
So why aren't tournaments played on "micro arena" or similar maps that are one-dimensional?
The objective of a starcraft 2 match is to either destroy the opponent's buildings or have them leave the game. How you get to that point is irrelevant.
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On December 04 2014 08:45 mierin wrote:
^ The thing is, BW JD would never have lost to that kind of shit. JD (even though he's my biggest nerd crush of all time) just isn't all that great at SC2.
I would argue that BW is a game that simply allows the better player to win, even in a cheese-rush scenario, but... don't want to fire up the ol' BW elitism :D
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Another generic widow mine tweak, how exciting. LOTV beta hopefully comes sooner than later.
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On December 04 2014 08:51 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 08:45 mierin wrote:
^ The thing is, BW JD would never have lost to that kind of shit. JD (even though he's my biggest nerd crush of all time) just isn't all that great at SC2. I would argue that BW is a game that simply allows the better player to win, even in a cheese-rush scenario, but... don't want to fire up the ol' BW elitism :D
Not gonna argue with you there...but I still have never raged harder than JD losing to Flash when he 5raxes...totally imba.
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I'd imagine Blizz found it hard to buff Zerg right after they won the global finals. Their tournament representation is looking pretty sad though.
The TvP matchup is pretty out of whack but I think its been designed so poorly that its "balanced" state will look dumb. Terran needs an advantage in the mid or late game to offset the ridiculous strength of Protoss cheese (compared to Terran cheese).
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On December 04 2014 08:50 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 08:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 04 2014 07:35 Fecalfeast wrote:On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote:
More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost. Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders? Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM." Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded. That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up. Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me. So why aren't tournaments played on "micro arena" or similar maps that are one-dimensional?
Is three paragraphs too long to hold your attention? I stated very clearly that "brainy play deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up." You know, after defending Classic and ForGG's victories for an entire paragraph. Hard to miss.
The objective of a starcraft 2 match is to either destroy the opponent's buildings or have them leave the game. How you get to that point is irrelevant.
If how you get to the point of victory is irrelevant, why balance the game at all? If the game is imbalanced, players can just play the superior race and win, and SC2 will have succeeded in its purpose of letting the player that won beat the player that lost!
The point of competition is to reward some kind of skill. A good competition will reward meaningful skills. A bad competition will reward meaningless skills (ie coin flipping contest). I want SC2 to be as good, as respectable, as worthwhile a competition as it is possible for an RTS to be.
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Voted for dislike because I didn't think it was enough of a nerf...
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On December 04 2014 07:25 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 07:22 Zanzabarr wrote:
I don't understand why it takes Blizzard months and months to figure out how to balance something they made overpowered when it was pretty obvious from the get go. I mean, I'm pretty sure their thought process initially went like this. "Hmm, widow mine not so good against protoss, lets give it +40 damage to shields for single target! Hmm, we want to buff it more, lets give it + shield damage on its aoe too! How much? +40 because that's how much bonus shield damage it does to single target too!" Completely disregarding the fact that the aoe is 1/3 of the damage of the single target, hence giving both the same + shield damage was completely idiotic. It should have been +15 or +20 at the start. I don't see how they could have missed the fact that a 75/25 cost unit one-shotting sentries and templars with its 1.75 radius aoe was a bit problematic.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happened when they decided to give mutalisks insane regeneration. After they gave reapers regen, they looked at the muta and went. Hmm reaper = mobile harass unit and it has regen.... muta = harass unit, we need to give it regen!
lol muta always had regen just not as crazy lol.
Yes, yes, all zerg units always had slight regen... I know this. They basically quadrupled the regen of the muta because it's a "harass" unit, and a harass unit like the reaper was given it. Oh Blizzard.
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Canada11355 Posts
On December 04 2014 09:15 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 08:50 Fecalfeast wrote:On December 04 2014 08:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 04 2014 07:35 Fecalfeast wrote:On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote:
More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost. Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders? Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM." Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded. That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up. Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me. So why aren't tournaments played on "micro arena" or similar maps that are one-dimensional? Is three paragraphs too long to hold your attention? I stated very clearly that "brainy play deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up." You know, after defending Classic and ForGG's victories for an entire paragraph. Hard to miss. Show nested quote +The objective of a starcraft 2 match is to either destroy the opponent's buildings or have them leave the game. How you get to that point is irrelevant. If how you get to the point of victory is irrelevant, why balance the game at all? If the game is imbalanced, players can just play the superior race and win, and SC2 will have succeeded in its purpose of letting the player that won beat the player that lost! The point of competition is to reward some kind of skill. A good competition will reward meaningful skills. A bad competition will reward meaningless skills (ie coin flipping contest). I want SC2 to be as good, as respectable, as worthwhile a competition as it is possible for an RTS to be.
So are you saying cannon rush is imbalanced, then? From what I gathered you think Has beating JD doesn't count as a valid win because he used cannon rush and didn't mess up.
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This is surprising, I don't think anyone was expecting a balance patch coming.
I am thinking about lotv all the time since it's announcement lol
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Almost fell out of my chair reading "Dayvie's" post on bnet. This guy never ceases to amaze me.
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templar openings??????  ))
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On December 04 2014 09:33 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 09:15 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 04 2014 08:50 Fecalfeast wrote:On December 04 2014 08:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 04 2014 07:35 Fecalfeast wrote:On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote:
More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost. Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders? Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM." Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded. That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up. Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me. So why aren't tournaments played on "micro arena" or similar maps that are one-dimensional? Is three paragraphs too long to hold your attention? I stated very clearly that "brainy play deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up." You know, after defending Classic and ForGG's victories for an entire paragraph. Hard to miss. The objective of a starcraft 2 match is to either destroy the opponent's buildings or have them leave the game. How you get to that point is irrelevant. If how you get to the point of victory is irrelevant, why balance the game at all? If the game is imbalanced, players can just play the superior race and win, and SC2 will have succeeded in its purpose of letting the player that won beat the player that lost! The point of competition is to reward some kind of skill. A good competition will reward meaningful skills. A bad competition will reward meaningless skills (ie coin flipping contest). I want SC2 to be as good, as respectable, as worthwhile a competition as it is possible for an RTS to be. So are you saying cannon rush is imbalanced, then? From what I gathered you think Has beating JD doesn't count as a valid win because he used cannon rush and didn't mess up.
There's a lot more to SC2 being a good game than the question "is it balanced or not," and the degree to which I care about 50/50 results is infinitely smaller than the degree to which I care that all competitors are judged against the most rigorous standards available as consistently as possible. SC2 isn't just for kicks, pro-gamers invest years into the game and their livelihood depends on it. I want to be as sure as is reasonably possible that the guys investing years into practicing their mechanics aren't getting cheesed out by someone who's on top of the meta for a couple of weeks.
p.s. saying that Has didn't mess up is being needlessly charitable. He certainly messed up, executing a very rudimentary build, no less. It just wasn't bad enough to cost him the game, because the avenues for counter-play for Jaedong were severely limited.
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On December 04 2014 08:42 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 07:35 Fecalfeast wrote:On December 04 2014 07:28 avilo wrote:
More Terran nerfs, not good. But i don't expect much from blizzard anymore tbh when it comes to patching or knowing what they are doing.
They still need to address early game TvP issues like proxied oracles/proxy twilight and all the other early game all-ins that make the early game a guessing game for Terran.
I do not think any SC2 fan will be happy with another Terran nerf. Only reason Terrans are doing so well in tourneys are because most of the top level Protosses are cheesey and maps that favored random bullshit were removed like yeonsu.
Forgg was a previous MSL champion, MKP champion material, same with every other big name Terran you can name. Then go through the list of Protosses and it's a lot of players that usually all-in like 50% of their games -_-
TBH tho, wish blizzard would look at siege tank damage in TvP - they do not trade whatsoever for their current cost. Why do people have to win in a certain way? What makes an all-in a non-valid strategy? Are there tournament rules I am unaware of that don't allow certain build orders? Some people feel that raw mechanics and multitasking ability are some of the more important skills, and as such deserve to be rewarded more. Why? Because they are the tangible skills that we can see on the screen. Strategy is too often intangible -- did a pro cannon rush because he knows that his opponent never ever Drone scouts on the third map of his fourth set of a Ro8, or did he cannon rush because "Hey why not? Worked all the way up to GM." Mechanics on the other hand are tangible and undeniable. When someone can Blink like PartinG, it's not by accident -- it's because he's spent years honing this skill. Practice should be rewarded. Skills that take years to perfect should be rewarded. That's not to say there aren't exceptions. Classic's games against Polt at Blizzcon are a triumph of preparation over predictability, Classic exploiting Polt's typically low Viking count. ForGG's games against Life were simply ruthless, he went 5 games of pure mech into sudden pure bio, 1 base bio all in, 3 pure mech, and a mech>bio build for his last game. That's brainy play and it deserves to win, but not without impressive mechanics and multitasking backing it up. Has beat Jaedong, one of the greatest StarCraft players of all time, and he didn't deserve to. He certainly hasn't spent as much time practicing the game, and I'd bet my cat (of whom I am very fond that he's not naturally, innately more talented than Jaedong is, either. All he did was decide "I'm going to cannon rush because it sometimes works" and then he didn't fuck it up badly enough. I don't want winners of SC2 tournaments to be people who didn't fuck up hard enough. That's not what a great competition is to me.
He has spent more time preparing the Cannon rush than Jaedong has had fending it off. There's also room for innovation in Starcraft and innovative players deserve to get an edge once in awhile. Instead of only the cookie cutters who execute the build a little better.
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EPT
