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On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote:
People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
Life just won the WCS finals. He had to go through Taeja and MMA. If it was so easy to win right now as Terran, they would have done the same thing as ForGG.
ForGG has shown streaks of brilliance before - he's a very good player who fails to play at a consistent championship level but is certainly capable of doing so. And based on Life's pattern of being a champion > falling into a rut > being a champion again, it shouldn't surprise anyone that ForGG can beat Life on occasion.
One win or even a single streak of wins at a tournament by a streaky player against another streaky player does not signal a balance issue.
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On December 04 2014 04:11 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 04:07 parkufarku wrote:On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get. Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed. Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything. Tanks are useless out of TvT dude. Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid. Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT.... That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game.
Is this a joke?
BCs are useful late game choice, mass BCs with air support wreck all sorts of Z / P armies.
You never heard of the broken mass Raven TvZ have you? Banshees are useful cheese options and sometimes complemented with mech.
Tanks aren't as useful vs. two other races but not completely useless. They are sometimes used vs. Zerg with certain maps that have higher elevation and cliffs, and is a better option vs mass SH than mines.
We all know you don't want a T nerf but you have to admit when the game is broken, even Blizzard said it, how are you going to deny it when the game creator said it?
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Banshees are commonly used in TvZ. ForGG beat Life with mass Banshee.
Tanks are situationally used (they were used in his mech compositions).
Battlecruisers are seen more often than Carriers, I think.
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On December 04 2014 06:35 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 04:11 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 04 2014 04:07 parkufarku wrote:On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get. Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed. Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything. Tanks are useless out of TvT dude. Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid. Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT.... That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game. Is this a joke? BCs are useful late game choice, mass BCs with air support wreck all sorts of Z / P armies. ... We all know you don't want a T nerf but you have to admit when the game is broken, even Blizzard said it, how are you going to deny it when the game creator said it?
Really... and the extensive pro games with mass Battlecruiser transitions that result in massive Terran wins are where, exactly?
I will give you that mass Raven, if achieved, is super hard to break through, but no one in the Blizzard team is using the word 'broken'. We're talking about slight advantages, and how to average them out as close to 50% as possible while still keeping the game fun. There is no reason to go all sky-is-falling by calling the whole game 'broken'. If it can be balanced by maps, there's no way it's THAT bad.
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On December 04 2014 04:06 TossNoHands wrote:
It's always very smart to talk about balance when the stats before "terran pool" was:
From 31 july to 30 november, TvP records :
Balanced:
Deadwing : 34-36 (48.6%)
Overgrowth : 86-86 (50%)
King station : 78-77 (50.3%)
imbalanced :
Merry go round : 67-52 (56.3%)
Catallena : 37-27 (57.8%)
Foxtrot Labs : 32-22 (59.3%)
Nimbus : 67-35 (65.7%)
No patch between all this periods.
I think it's to smart to wait next pool map and then check if there are some sort of imbalance. Personally i think it's a maps based issues.
Link to the source of the data? I always love to check stats and such.
Also regarding the maps i'm very happy for them to realize that the map pool coupled with the Terran buffs at the end of the S2 are the source of the issues today, nonetheless i'm still worried about what maps will they bring in? AFAIK no mapmaker has been in talks with Blizzard about this, and we are in December one month away from the next season, there is no time to think about new layouts in the case of a TLMC, if they pick off random community maps without talking to much people about them then balance can't be assured.
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Looks great. As much as I detest the Protoss race some variance in TvP would be great (besides the rare mind-game/gimmick). If change in map-pool means "maps which favor the current T-favored paradigm" coupled with "maps which give a little somethin' to Z" then I am all for it. Zerg being able to drone up to 70 drones is never a bad thing with the current state of affairs.
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As a terran player, I'm not particularly looking forward to playing against templar openings again. They are among the most frustating bullshit to deal with. But if its better for the game overall to strengthen pvt balance, then I'll accept it.
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On December 04 2014 06:05 Musicus wrote:
That got me excited. Balance through maps ^_^!
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On December 04 2014 06:55 Dreamer.T wrote:
As a terran player, I'm not particularly looking forward to playing against templar openings again. They are among the most frustating bullshit to deal with. But if its better for the game overall to strengthen pvt balance, then I'll accept it.
WOAH vs Templar is THE most fun you ever get to play 0_0
Minutes of skirmishing on no end, 12 0 energy medivacs! Epicness!
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So Zerg is underperforming in both matchups but their only balance change helps only Protoss... that makes so much sense.
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On December 04 2014 06:35 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 04:11 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 04 2014 04:07 parkufarku wrote:On December 04 2014 04:03 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Buff tank (only vs z somehow), nerf mine splash (just a bit), and balance would be the closest to perfect we'd ever get. Why does every single T unit have to be very useful? Tank is moderately useful as it is. You don't see P or Z players complaining that their every unit isn't great at everything so they need to be buffed. Nerf mine splash (more than just a little bit), but there has to be nerfs other aspects of Terran units. This tiny change won't address anything. Tanks are useless out of TvT dude. Every unit should be useful in preferably 2 matchups, else, the unit is stupid. Protoss has the Carrier which has no use, but also has more units in general. that's it. Zerg has probably no units that are useless. Terran? Siege Tanks are terrible, Battlecruisers, Banshees, all useless out of TvT.... That, and STs are iconic and the most awesome type of unit design in this game. Is this a joke? BCs are useful late game choice, mass BCs with air support wreck all sorts of Z / P armies. You never heard of the broken mass Raven TvZ have you? Banshees are useful cheese options and sometimes complemented with mech.
Are you guys trying to outdo one another? Come on. Tanks are good units in TvZ, and Battlecruisers are complete trash outside of some niche uses in TvT.
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YES MY BELOVED TEMPLAR OPENINGS!
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On December 04 2014 06:00 DinoMight wrote:
People said the same thing about Protoss when Protoss was OP:
Skyhigh, Marineking, ForGG are not good Terrans. They are mediocre Terrans winning/getting far in big tournaments at the same time that world class Protoss and Zerg players are dropping out.
ForGG went 6-3 vs Life at Dreamhack.
In the last game he opened 2 factory BFH, had it completely shut down, then just plopped down 6 barracks and won anyway. He did essentially the worst possible build and beat one of the best Zergs.
Mediocre Terrans winning with dumb builds = imba, honestly.
LOL. Anyway, MarineKing uses builds from 3 years ago in TvP so you can whine all you want, he's not stopping.
And sKyHigh beat Flash and Bbyong in TvTs, that screams legit to me. "Patch imbaraceplayers" don't win in mirror matchups.
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On December 04 2014 06:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 06:55 Dreamer.T wrote:
As a terran player, I'm not particularly looking forward to playing against templar openings again. They are among the most frustating bullshit to deal with. But if its better for the game overall to strengthen pvt balance, then I'll accept it.
WOAH vs Templar is THE most fun you ever get to play 0_0 Minutes of skirmishing on no end, 12 0 energy medivacs! Epicness!
I really hope you're being sarcastic. It's understandable if you're toss, I can't imagine a-moving some zealots back and forth is as annoying as macroing and microing mmm non stop.
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On December 04 2014 06:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 06:55 Dreamer.T wrote:
As a terran player, I'm not particularly looking forward to playing against templar openings again. They are among the most frustating bullshit to deal with. But if its better for the game overall to strengthen pvt balance, then I'll accept it.
WOAH vs Templar is THE most fun you ever get to play 0_0 Minutes of skirmishing on no end, 12 0 energy medivacs! Epicness!
To play yes, to play against no, specially not if you against templars and a wall of 20 zealots. Zealot/templar was one of the most anoying strats to play against, it was all just kitting to your death will trying not to eat 2 storms that would destroy your whole army.
But I'm positive, as long as they don't over nerf the WM, terran would have AoE of its own and it may be fun now, Biomine vs zealot/templar was fun to watch after the patch, I hope they get the balance right and it ends being awesome.
I just hope they get the maps right, thats what would probably have the most impact on the game.
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>Zerg isn't performing well
>We're going to nerf the widow mine's damage vs shields
Excuse me?
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I'm really hoping that they change the maps and wait at least a month or so even two before the nerf the mine. i honestly believe its the maps and by then toss will have to learn to play vs them a lot better, and if then there's still a problem then even as a terran go ahead and nerf that bitch. even if it mean me going back to 33% winrate vs toss again the game will be balanced
ps my tvp w/r now is only now getting to 50% but barely.
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this should really be in the OP as well seen enough angry zergs lol.
ah shit quoted it wrong oh well its only a few comments up. maps will help zerg too
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On December 04 2014 03:22 CakeSauc3 wrote:
Would this bring back Templar openings?
Glad they're mostly focusing on maps.
I hope so, colossi are boring, ht much better, more fun
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EPT
