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On November 22 2014 14:06 Iodem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 13:44 Superbanana wrote:On November 22 2014 13:40 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:27 GolemMadness wrote:On November 22 2014 13:22 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:20 GolemMadness wrote:On November 22 2014 12:49 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 12:46 GolemMadness wrote:On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote:
StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable. ...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?" I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context. Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy." And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about? Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever. You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway. 7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right? Your argument assumes that if games can be violent then its ok to post that tweet. That makes no sense and its a false. Do you think people would have complained if he tweeted, "going to beat the shit out of this girl #fragbitemasters" ? There is no real difference between the statements.
Personally, I think they would. I think girl and not rape is the magic word.
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Knowing how well-mannered Kas is, and what type of person he is, I don't think he meant what it he's written. There's dozens of word in Russian that can be translated as that, but the meaning and/or translation can be nowhere close to it.
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The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
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On November 22 2014 14:22 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 14:06 Iodem wrote:On November 22 2014 13:44 Superbanana wrote:On November 22 2014 13:40 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:27 GolemMadness wrote:On November 22 2014 13:22 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:20 GolemMadness wrote:On November 22 2014 12:49 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 12:46 GolemMadness wrote:On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote:
StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable. ...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?" I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context. Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy." And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about? Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever. You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway. 7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right? Your argument assumes that if games can be violent then its ok to post that tweet. That makes no sense and its a false. Do you think people would have complained if he tweeted, "going to beat the shit out of this girl #fragbitemasters" ? There is no real difference between the statements. Personally, I think they would. I think girl and not rape is the magic word.
Yeah, pretty much, if it was something like "gonna rape Nightend" or "gonna rape some nerds/guys" people would just be like oh ok I guess he's confident in his next match.
Nightend's response is appalling, by the way.
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It's been a while since SC2 had some big drama.
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On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote:
The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
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On November 22 2014 14:20 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 14:14 ddayzy wrote:On November 22 2014 14:08 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:58 ddayzy wrote:On November 22 2014 13:54 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:36 ddayzy wrote:On November 22 2014 13:29 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:25 ddayzy wrote:On November 22 2014 13:16 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:14 ddayzy wrote:
[quote]
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats. PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament. At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want. Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say. If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence. If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok? Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk. I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them. Too bad, I was really looking forward to a real life discussion about your theory that the existens of action games makes it ok to make woman feel bad in real life. It's a very simple theory. Just as much as the rape joke made women feel bad, I think violent games make people who fear violence, have suffered violence or have lost friends and family to violence feel bad. I don't think clamping down on things whenever they make people feel bad is the right solution, in either case. You dont realize how stupid this sounds at all? "Action games exist so I can tell woman I will rape them". You dont see that the only way your scenario makes sense is if Maddelisk watched a movie where a woman got raped and got offended by it? Nobody is arguing that you cant make stuff that brings forth different emotions than happiness. Whats being said is that you dont tell woman you will rape them on twitter. I will just give up talking to you, as long as you insist on confusing sincere threats with obvious jokes. I'm sorry.
I am giving you the sentence in the same context you got it on twitter, I have not ones said it was a threat, in fact I said the oposit. Why do you think im using it as a threat?
At least have balls to admit you could not make a coherent argument so you pussied out.
I hope you are young and this is nothing more then a lack of experience and maturity, because if there is a grown man out there who thinks its ok to write To a woman that you will rape her because action games exist Im gonna lose all faith in humanity.
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I can't think believe he was serious, I mean look at him and then look at Maddelisk... He's obviously the one who would get raped.
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On November 22 2014 14:31 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote:
The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest. That's pretty much the definition of a double standard. Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
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On November 22 2014 13:54 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 13:36 ddayzy wrote:On November 22 2014 13:29 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:25 ddayzy wrote:On November 22 2014 13:16 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:14 ddayzy wrote:On November 22 2014 13:04 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 12:56 RuiBarbO wrote:On November 22 2014 12:49 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 12:46 GolemMadness wrote:
[quote]
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?" I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening. Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating. You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence? Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life? I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats. PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament. At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want. Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say. If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence. If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok? Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk. I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them. Yes, I think it's okay that she got hurt. It happens, because people aren't perfect and humor sometimes goes wrong. Usually people move on. Now we have a player DQed for speechcrime. Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 13:44 Superbanana wrote:On November 22 2014 13:40 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:27 GolemMadness wrote:On November 22 2014 13:22 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 13:20 GolemMadness wrote:On November 22 2014 12:49 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 12:46 GolemMadness wrote:On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote:
StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable. ...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?" I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context. Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy." And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about? Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever. You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway. 7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right? Your argument assumes that if games can be violent then its ok to post that tweet. That makes no sense and its a false. My argument challenges you to point out why we can make light of any number of terrible things, such as war, assault and shooting people, but not rape. Personally I think rape jokes are just fine, and I doubt I am going to convince you to agree with me, but I'm still trying to understand why you feel so strongly about them.
Im not personally offended by rape jokes, since i was never raped and im not a part of a group that has all right to be sensitive about the matter, since rape is a real problem. And i don't make light of things like war, assault or shooting people, but i accept fiction as a way to discuss those matters or simply to entertain.
Kas was indeed making a joke, but he must be punished for the sake of consistency, since ill intentioned actions/comments can be made in the future.
edit: @Iodem, in other words personal attacks directed towards a group or individual are not acceptable, since its bad sportsmanship. Again, with context we can assume Kas was making a joke (he admitted the mistake and wrote an apology, cannot really feel offended after that). But other people can write the exactly same thing with intention to harass or even actually harm someone. If tweets like the one Kas made are ignored, later we cannot have double standards. When it comes to tournaments rules and standards we cannot just rely on interpretation, some consistency is required.
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People going off on crazy tangents here... Whether it's the choice of the word "rape" here or the fact that Maddelisk is a girl doesn't really matter to me.. I just find I'm quite able to sympathize with her here and see how this comes across as particularly offensive.
He's not only putting her down here based on gender but also throwing in the rape bit which is obviously a more sensitive topic for women. Of course it's common slang in video games.. but hey! maybe that's largely accepted because video games are dominated by men. This should be obvious...
I think Kas realizes that now and that he totally did fuck up, and I'm sure he never really meant anything so extremely negative in the first place.. I almost wonder if language barrier is really at the source of this but whatever, I don't think Kas was trying to be that huge a dick and it sorta seems fine now.
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On November 22 2014 14:31 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote:
The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest. That's pretty much the definition of a double standard. Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
As long as guys keeps sexually harrassing woman, as long as 1 in 3 woman gets sexually harrassed there will be a difference in saying it about a man and a woman. I have never ever been afraid I would get raped, for the woman I know its a different story. You seem completly unable to have any empathy for others or see it from their point of view.
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On November 22 2014 14:06 Iodem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 11:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 22 2014 11:43 Iodem wrote:
Man, rape victims and people who are concerned with rape and rape culture are the most overly sensitive people on earth... Fixed that for you. Sometimes it's good to be sensitive about things. No, I'm saying that Swedes are typically the most over the top whiners when it comes to so-called "offensive speech' and feminist crap. And what is "rape culture" ?
Rape culture:
"Rape culture is a concept that examines a culture in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2]
Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of certain forms of sexual violence that do not conform to certain stereotypes of stranger or violent rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison rape and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.[3][4][5][6][7]
Although the concept of rape culture is used in feminist academia,[8] there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and to what degree a given society meets the criteria to be considered a rape culture.[3]
Rape culture has been observed to correlate with other social factors and behaviors. Research identifies correlation between rape myths, victim blaming and trivialization of rape with increased incidence of racism, homophobia, ageism, classism, religious intolerance, and other forms of discrimination.[9][10]"
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture
Also, you're in the United States like I am, so you should be well aware of what constitutes offensive speech, as well the fact that not everything feminism/ fairness related is "crap".
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Sorry, but it's not worth all the fuss. When Harstem joked on HSC, all just laughed and forgot. Joke of course unsuccessful 
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Good that players saying these kinds of things have repercussions. If I decided, all gamers stopped using the term as a substitute for "winning".
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Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
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Man, I hate our society. Like a tweet that is made as a joke should not effect any tournament standing whatsoever.I am aware of what the company that supports the tournaments is thinking. However, all you need is a disclaimer that explains that the tweets of the players are not your ideas and/or values. Even when it comes to jokes. I am sick of our victim mentality in today's society. Our society is a weak one and I honestly believe that due to this will spawn corruption and hatred. I despise political correctness and it only masks what the real problem in our society is. The only reason he was disqualified was due to the overall image that they are trying to project to sell their products. It is a media driven, attention whore society that doesn't want facts but rather fame, power, and money. Is it wrong to joke about rape in a satire way? No, it is a joke. Will some people be offended by said joke? Probably. But that doesn't give you the right to deny someone the right to compete due to something they said as a joke. I believe actions speak louder than words ever will. And the action of raping someone is the true atrocity. Not some joke on the internet. But people will try to make a joke seem more serious than rape itself. That is the true joke in our society today.
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On November 22 2014 14:37 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 14:31 Darkwhite wrote:On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote:
The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest. That's pretty much the definition of a double standard. Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality. if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
There are people in this world who deal with threats of violence in their everyday lives too, so what? They don't tell people their feelings got hurt because you made a joke about killing someone, or that by making the joke you are "enabling" killers and people who commit assault. And I think it's ridiculous that you actually believe that there is a culture of acceptance towards rape.
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+ Show Spoiler +
in case anyone wants to know why people think women are more often raped then men; before people blindly memorize reports and statistics, one should investigate fully before making an emotion decision
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On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote:
The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
There is a massive difference between those lines. MMA raped MoMan is in the past, and since MMA clearly did not actually rape MoMan the context is clear.
However, if you say you are going to rape some girl, you are intentionally using words in an equivocal manner. He intentionally used "some girl", which he wouldn't if it wasn't about making it ambiguous.
I don't think Kas wanted to cause drama or majorly offend anyone, but he did and now he has to live with the consequences.
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EPT
