Fragbite The Ukrainian Terran Mihaylo "Kas" Hayda has been disqualified from Fragbite Masters due to inappropriate behaviour in connection with out StarCraft II tournament. Fragbite Masters have decided to disqualify the Ukrainian Terran Mihaylo "Kas" Hayda from our tournament. This was decided tonight after Hayda acted inappropriately in social media, where he wrote an offensive post, claimed to be a joke, towards his opponent. Fragbite Masters do not tolerate this kind of behaviour. We strive to bring out the best of e-sports, and the said Twitter-post showed a part we all want to destroy from our community.
"First of all, I have to say that this is terrible. We will never stand for this kind of behaviour, and therefore a disqualification is highly appropriate. We need to show the players that these kinds of toxic acts have consequences. We have learned that the opponent in question has been dealt criticism for our penalty towards Kas, but we can assure you, this decision was made completely by the Fragbite Masters staff."
Pontus Eskilsson, Head of Fragbite Masters
As Group C has already started, there will be no replacement for Kas. This means the group now contains three players instead of four.
Today , something happened that I think is really horrible. Before a tournament match, writes my opponent " Going to rape some girl soon" on twitter . When I learned of this I was blown away . We are talking about one of the best players in Europe.
Should we allow this type of behavior in e- sport ? Of course not . There is something that organizers agree. They put their foot down and disqualified player . It's probably best that I make clear that this was not something I asked for. Fragbite sets the standard , I hope more organizers will follow. They took a tough decision and I think it was the right decision. As Fragbite thanks ! You made some very good today. You show that e-sports are serious and that whatever is not allowed .
The player apologized afterwards. After my blog post , he apologized again and again. He changed his mind , it was clear . He assured that it would not happen again. It had taught him a lesson , he said , and I thank them for . I was hoping more people would learn from it. However , I continued surprised by the so called pro players . Nightend makes it clear that he is at Kas page: "hello drama queen , in the hope of not gonna cry to much arent u? or u iodide alreadycontains ? pathetic " .
Those of you who are wondering what I mean by that the climate is sometimes quite hard for female players might begin to understand why . Those of you who are wondering what is meant by that girl tournaments are good ( among other things ) to creating a secure environment , you may also begin to understand . Those of you who are wondering why many female players choose not to play mixed tournaments might begin to understand why . Yes, you got it. This type of behavior is unacceptable and makes it harder for girls . E- sport has the potential to be a sport where guys and girls compete against each other without anyone think it's weird . Here you can compete on equal terms. We have a ways to go .
Are we together continue to emphasize that we do not want the e-sports associated with this stuff ? I think !
P.S. It is after all, only a small percentage of the community that keeps on like this. Thanks everyone else for the support today. It's thanks to you I can write about this! You are wonderful <3
I know for many this might be old news, but I just heard about it and was suprised to see no thread on TL. I know it's being discussed on Twitter and Reddit, but I think 140 characters don't do this topic justice and Reddit often heavily favours one opinion. For me TL is still the best place for a healthy discussion and my main source for Starcraft news. That's why I made this post.
The term to "rape" someone at a video game is used extensively without referring specifically to women players. So I don't think that's necessarily what was intended (giving him the benefit of the doubt).
That said, rape is a serious thing and I don't think people should joke about it in that way, especially when there is a female player involved.
Can a tournament DQ someone for what they say in their personal time though? I believe the NBA has rules about such things, especially if they reflect poorly on the NBA (look at racist things said by the old Clippers owner, for example).
Edit- I'm glad that they acted on their own and not because someoned asked them.
That's pretty stupid...DQ is the right thing to do. He doesn't deserve a spot in the tourney after saying something so offensive like that. You have to remember that your statements have consequences.
This will make more drama that it needs to. Kas' Tweet is clearly inappropriate but not a big deal after all. The word "raping" in gaming doesn't refer to the usual term, although Kas played on that. Kas will just know now that you can't say anything you want, even on your own Twitter... He won't do it again but I hope this will not get him into trouble as it's really not that horrible.
(Vote): Well, trash talk is trash talk - no more, no less - and part of esports (Vote): Tweet was harsh, but absolutely fine in its context from an ethics points of view (Vote): Tweet was inappropriate but shouldn't be as big of a deal as it is (Vote): Tweet was very inappropriate and should be punished as it was (Vote): Tweet was an absolute disgrace for esports and its community there should be even more consequences
I feel like if he said this verbally he would have gotten away with it, but he put it on the record on his official Twitter. How dumb is that? If you're a "professional" gamer then you might want to think about managing your image.
I don't think Kas is a bad dude or meant it literally, but still a stupid thing to do. Even as a joke, saying you're going to 'rape' a girl is going to piss people off. In a game where every viewer and sponsor is extremely important, a tournament can't have any backlash against it.
I agree. From the information available it does not seem like Kas intended to use the word literally and directed towards women. There is also the difference in languages and how words are used. Unfortunately - he did use the word in reference to a woman even in the context of a video game whooping.
However - from what i can tell - the tweet was hashbrowned with fragbitemasters which then associates it to the organization and gives them the right to do so. IMO.
Just poor word choice by Kas - regardless of how he came to it. If only he tweeted a different 4 letter R word (REKT) instead im sure this wouldnt be an issue at all.
*i guess i type slow - tons of replies came through while i typed this*
I have practiced with kas since wc3 2008, and he is without a doubt one of the most mannered and respectful players I know. Most likely came off differently than how he intended :/
It's depressing SC2 pros still do this kind of shit. The community has always been one of the most progressive in being conscientous and open by and large, that this kind of behavior still turns up from time to time is frustrating.
The first comment was thoughtless, the one by nightend probably emotionally driven rather than malicious, but it's no fucking excuse.
On November 22 2014 06:58 duckk wrote: I have practiced with kas since wc3 2008, and he is without a doubt one of the most mannered and respectful players I know. Most likely came off differently than how he intended :/
yeah kas is known for being really cool. I hope it was a case of misunderstanding the language and he clears it up and apologizes
I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified... Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling.
Well then. Kas definitely messed up, and as egregious of an error as it was it seems like he realized it pretty quickly and owned up to it. What he said was pretty awful in any context and he got what he deserved, but at least he tried to make it better. Nightend on the other hand has just lost all my respect.
I find it comical that he almost certainly would have had nothing done to him had he posted this exact tweet, but was going to play a guy. #equality #itisnotactuallyaboutequality
Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
On November 22 2014 06:59 Yonnua wrote: Really hope cascade drop him for this. Absolutely disgusting thing to say, especially over twitter.
Yes, there is no context at all. Kas wanted to express to literally rape her. Not as in "rape" how it has (harshly ofc) been forever used in (e-)sports to win vs. someone. Disgusting. I'm sure you have never said something that could have been interpreted in a very bad way even though you wanted to say sth else.
I want to point out that Kas doesn't speak english very well. I'm not saying that he doesn't know what the verb 'rape' really means, but he probably forgot about it in the very moment that he wrote the tweet. Sad for him but I guess the disqualification is still appropriate.
On November 22 2014 06:47 DinoMight wrote: Can a tournament DQ someone for what they say in their personal time though?
If he hashtags the tournament, I don't see why not...
Nothing should ever depend on whether something gets hashtaged or not. But seriously though, FBM is a private organisation, they can disqualify him for owning a bicycle, if they want to do that. The question is not, whether they can disqualify him, but whether they should. I personally don't think, that it is reasonable, since it was clear, that his choice of words was infuenced by not speaking english as his first language and thus heavily underestimating the impact of his words. I mean, everyone here should agree, that he did only try to trashtalk (and failed at that the worst way possible) without malicious intent here and did not actually threaten to do anything to Maddelisk. As I already did in the LR thread, I beg everyone to stay calm for a while and hope, that Kas apologizes to Maddelisk on a personal level and stuff gets sorted out without further drama, that is bad for everyone involved.
On November 22 2014 06:59 Yonnua wrote: Really hope cascade drop him for this. Absolutely disgusting thing to say, especially over twitter.
Dropping an excellent and still mannered player for making a bad move and saying something that he apologized for is clearly abusive and exagerated. Stop being emotional and think with reason.
Its kinda a shame that an intended joke gets you banned from a tournament but kas really has to know better. Cant just go throwing around that kind of language on social media
The tweet was a disgrace, punishment was appropriate. Kas apparently apologized and Maddelisk seemed to be fine with the apology, so we should not start a witchhunt against either side.
On November 22 2014 07:00 Alchemik wrote: why wasn't MC DQ'd for saying the same thing about people during WCS?
Did he? I don't follow twitter.
But that was my thought, what if he made that statement about a male player? He probably wouldn't, because his statement plays on the gender of said player and if he were to make a gender play with the word rape on a male player that would be homophobic. It is a fine line he crossed, nice that he tries to communicate in english with his fans.
On November 22 2014 06:58 duckk wrote: I have practiced with kas since wc3 2008, and he is without a doubt one of the most mannered and respectful players I know. Most likely came off differently than how he intended :/
yeah kas is known for being really cool. I hope it was a case of misunderstanding the language and he clears it up and apologizes
This. I imagine it can be pretty scary being a non-English speaker in a predominately English competitive scene. Considering the fact that English is a second language to Kas and the historical usage of the word rape in the context of gaming, I think it's a reasonable possibility that Kas didn't quite know what he was saying.
What a stupid shit to write on Twitter. Well deserved punishment imo. I do think this has to have a lot to do with language barrier, but if you're smart you know you don't say shit like that nowadays. The fact that this was directed (or not, I don't care) at a girl changes nothing btw. You can trash talk, but there are some boundaries today's society puts on what you can say. No racial shit, no homophobe shit, no rape shit, etc etc, it's not that hard to remember.
Next time, go for a yo mama joke. Timeless yet sophisticated, for the true gentlemen.
Kas most certainly didnt mean that he had any interest in actually literally raping Maddelisk, but his subsequent comments on Twitter indicate that he at least knows what he said.
On November 22 2014 07:01 UberNuB wrote: I find it comical that he almost certainly would have had nothing done to him had he posted this exact tweet, but was going to play a guy. #equality #itisnotactuallyaboutequality
Was the tweet malicious? Probably not. Would he have been DQed for saying this to a man? Probably not.
But saying you're going to rape a girl and hashtagging the tournament organizer was not very smart. And clearly, he at least is aware of how some people might interpret his use of the word "rape."
Discussing rape is not some academic excercise where we can talk about #equality. "Equality" doesn't mean that you can disregard the fact that men are almost never actually raped by women, whereas women get raped by men on a daily basis.
In an ideal world, nobody would be raped. #equality
Personaly, If I was Maddelisk I would contact Kas myself and tell him that he should publicly say he messed up, and I would then ask the organizers to allow Kas to play. Equality or not, drama or not, etc, The people that I respect the most is the ones that solve the problem, not those who can figure out who is to blame.
Hm, just in case anyone wanted to know the #realtalk, Maddelisk is in the right, Kas is correct to feel shame and is right to apologize and Nightend is a piece of shit. The end!
I'll remember this free win card. And, I now have a "legit" excuse for why I don't like to play in the GSL. Don't get me wrong, it's wrong to talk like that, but talk about milking it.
I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified...
Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling.
~93% of rapes are perpetrated by men ~90% of rapes are perpetrated against women (the discrepancy there being men on men) *disclaimer that this is reported rapes. I'm sure it's slightly less one-sided given I'd speculate men are less likely to report being raped by a woman.
^ that right there is a double-standard in male female interactions. Treating it like it's a 50/50 thing is (rightly) very unsettling for women, given the ongoing and disproportionate victimization they suffer at the hands of men. Kind of disrespectful too. I agree that it should be adressed and avoided with/by both genders, sexual violence is not something that should be diminished through being an acceptable part of shittalking, but treating a woman less harshly for that kind of joke is fair in my books.
On November 22 2014 07:07 iloveav wrote: Personaly, If I was Maddelisk I would contact Kas myself and tell him that he should publicly say he messed up, and I would then ask the organizers to allow Kas to play. Equality or not, drama or not, etc, The people that I respect the most is the ones that solve the problem, not those who can figure out who is to blame.
He did apologize, and the organizers made the decision before she said anything.
What Kas said was crude, stupid, and unsportsmanlike, but if he's going to be punished for saying it about her, MC, Parting, and several others should be punished for saying it about their male opponents. Otherwise it's coddling Maddelisk because of her gender.
On November 22 2014 07:07 sparklyresidue wrote: Hm, just in case anyone wanted to know the #realtalk, Maddelisk is in the right, Kas is correct to feel shame and is right to apologize and Nightend is a piece of shit. The end!
NightEnD is indeed by far the worst character in this story.
On November 22 2014 07:07 sparklyresidue wrote: Hm, just in case anyone wanted to know the #realtalk, Maddelisk is in the right, Kas is correct to feel shame and is right to apologize and Nightend is a piece of shit. The end!
NightEnD is indeed by far the worst character in this story.
I thought everyone already knew he isn't a very smart fella
I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified...
Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling.
~93% of rapes are perpetrated by men ~90% of rapes are perpetrated against women (the discrepancy there being men on men) *disclaimer that this is reported rapes. I'm sure it's slightly less one-sided given I'd speculate men are less likely to report being raped by a woman.
^ that right there is a double-standard in male female interactions. Treating it like it's a 50/50 thing is (rightly) very unsettling for women, given the ongoing and disproportionate victimization they suffer at the hands of men. Kind of disrespectful too. I agree that it should be adressed and avoided with/by both genders, sexual violence is not something that should be diminished through being an acceptable part of shittalking, but treating a woman less harshly for that kind of joke is fair in my books.
By the same logic, women being killed shouldn't be taken as seriously because most murders are perpetrated by men against men.
On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse.
I don't see why he had to bring up his opponent's gender in the first place. "Some girl" is pretty disrespectful in itself.
I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified...
Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling.
~93% of rapes are perpetrated by men ~90% of rapes are perpetrated against women (the discrepancy there being men on men) *disclaimer that this is reported rapesreported rapes. I'm sure it's slightly less onesided given I'd speculate men are less likely to report being raped by a woman.
^ that right there is a double-standard in male female interactions. Treating it like it's a 50/50 thing is (rightly) very unsettling for women. Kind of disrespectful too. I agree that it should be adressed and avoided with/by both genders, sexual violence is not something that should be diminished through being an acceptable part of shittalking, but treating a woman less harshly for that kind of joke is fair in my books.
That's absolutely idiotic logic.
Just because statistically the trend is for one group against another group doesn't make it acceptable when said in reverse. With that logic I (a white male) could say, "About to bomb these buildings. lol", but a Muslim couldn't?
Using the word 'rape' to describe beating somebody at a video game has always been distasteful; the sooner it's no longer part of gaming's vernacular the better.
On November 22 2014 07:07 sparklyresidue wrote: Hm, just in case anyone wanted to know the #realtalk, Maddelisk is in the right, Kas is correct to feel shame and is right to apologize and Nightend is a piece of shit. The end!
NightEnD is indeed by far the worst character in this story.
I thought everyone already knew he isn't a very smart fella
Lot of people didn't give enough of a shit about him to even know that before
On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse.
I don't see why he had to bring up his opponent's gender in the first place. "Some girl" is pretty disrespectful in itself.
Change "some girl" to "some zerg" and it'd have been no big deal.
I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified...
Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling.
~93% of rapes are perpetrated by men ~90% of rapes are perpetrated against women (the discrepancy there being men on men) *disclaimer that this is reported rapes. I'm sure it's slightly less one-sided given I'd speculate men are less likely to report being raped by a woman.
^ that right there is a double-standard in male female interactions. Treating it like it's a 50/50 thing is (rightly) very unsettling for women, given the ongoing and disproportionate victimization they suffer at the hands of men. Kind of disrespectful too. I agree that it should be adressed and avoided with/by both genders, sexual violence is not something that should be diminished through being an acceptable part of shittalking, but treating a woman less harshly for that kind of joke is fair in my books.
Please bare in mind I was talking about the situation in the tournament, not actual rape. I believe that mixing a gaming tournament and trash talk (at least that is the way I see it) with real world rape is a bit missguided. I was considering that context alone, where most people should agree that it was a game expression. Women normally would not even consider using that word in a gaming environment as far as I know. Again, Probably we should not make a witch hunt out of this, that sort of what I am saying.
On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse.
I don't see why he had to bring up his opponent's gender in the first place. "Some girl" is pretty disrespectful in itself.
Change "some girl" to "some zerg" and it'd have been no big deal.
It's a really stupid word to use no matter the gender, but it is obvious that it has a specific meaning when directed towards women.
If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
if women want equality then give them equality.
On November 22 2014 07:00 iloveav wrote: I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified... Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling.
yep. i am hoping the rules state that this kind of language isn't allowed in general, rather than this just being a blatant double standard
On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse.
But thats how it is. Saying "Nigger" to a black person is much worse than saying it to a white person, and saying that you will "gas someone" is much worse if you say it to a jewish person.
Public statements dont just exist in a vacuum, historical and social context is always important.
On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse.
But thats how it is. Saying "Nigger" to a black person is much worse than saying it to a white person, and saying that you will "gas someone" is much worse if you say it to a jewish person.
Public statements dont just exist in a vacuum, historical and social context is always important.
On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote: If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
if women want equality then give them equality.
It's basicly ban the player or give up your tournament, because no sponsor in sweden is going to go anywhere near fragbite again if they don't. This is one of the most touchy subjects in swedish society, and if you do anything that isn't as extreme as this, the sponsors and the organizer will be crucified.
I'm sure in a perfect world, fragbite would sacrifice their whole brand to make sure the word rape is used equally for both sexes, but this is far from a perfect world.
On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse.
But thats how it is. Saying "Nigger" to a black person is much worse than saying it to a white person, and saying that you will "gas someone" is much worse if you say it to a jewish person.
Public statements dont just exist in a vacuum, historical and social context is always important.
rape is not exclusive to women, and it's a stupid comparison anyways because this isn't even the context in which rape was being used.
Guys just don't use the word rape when talking about a video game. It'll keep you out of situations like this. I don't think Kas meant what he said, but I agree with him being DQ'd under the circumstance.
Bleh I just wish we didn't have this whole section of gamers that thinks the word "rape" is cool to throw around whenever
On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote: If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
if women want equality then give them equality.
It's basicly ban the player or give up your tournament, because no sponsor in sweden is going to go anywhere near fragbite again if they don't. This is one of the most touchy subjects in swedish society, and if you do anything that isn't as extreme as this, the sponsors and the organizer will be crucified.
I'm sure in a perfect world, fragbite would sacrifice their whole brand to make sure the word rape is used equally for both sexes, but this is far from a perfect world.
There are numerous discussions on this term on blogs and stuff on Aftonbladet Esport and how it is a terrible word that we should avoid. And the Starcraft community itself here on TL brings it up every so often. But I'm glad you guys are concerned about the useage of the word! I'm looking forward to seeing more people call out usages of the term wherever it used, whether towards men or women!
On November 22 2014 07:21 Boucot wrote: I think Kas' apologizes should be in the OP.
I agree with this, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's a gamer whose first language is not English. In my opinion, Fragbite's decision was completely justified, though not necessarily required. Professionalism takes some precedence here, and that is language that nobody can throw into a microphone and expect to be taken seriously. Kas did a stupid thing, and as a result, he was DQd from a tournament that he wasn't originally going to be a part of. I doubt Cascade would add any punitive measure on top, so IMO, the incident itself is settled.
I threw this in the LR thread when we argued about it, and I'll put it here too.
On November 22 2014 06:05 Circumstance wrote: Just some food for thought, from a lot of different, important perspectives (I put a timestamp in there, but if it doesn't work, skip ahead to 16:44):
Also, I think that if there's one thing we CAN all agree on when it comes to what happened today, it's that NightEnD is a tool.
On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote: If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
if women want equality then give them equality.
It's basicly ban the player or give up your tournament, because no sponsor in sweden is going to go anywhere near fragbite again if they don't. This is one of the most touchy subjects in swedish society, and if you do anything that isn't as extreme as this, the sponsors and the organizer will be crucified.
I'm sure in a perfect world, fragbite would sacrifice their whole brand to make sure the word rape is used equally for both sexes, but this is far from a perfect world.
There are numerous discussions on this term on blogs and stuff on Aftonbladet Esport and how it is a terrible word that we should avoid. And the Starcraft community itself here on TL brings it up every so often. But I'm glad you guys are concerned about the useage of the word! I'm looking forward to seeing more people call out usages of the term wherever it used, whether towards men or women!
I didn't voice my opinion on the word, I'm just saying fragbite had no choice.
Just because statistically the trend is for one group against another group doesn't make it acceptable when said in reverse. With that logic I (a white male) could say, "About to bomb these buildings. lol", but a Muslim couldn't?
Pretty fucking stupid.
Like it or not, that's pretty much the current situation.
I didn't say it was acceptable, I said that chastisement should be less harsh. Which, in the situation you describe, is exactly what tends to happen. Fratboy makes a bomb joke and gets a talking to, Abdullah makes a bomb joke and says goodbye to privacy for the rest of his life, if he avoids prison. The reason for this is, like it or not, the former's comment is going to make a lot less people stressed out and scared than the latter's. That sucks, because Abdullah is probably a cool guy with a dark sense of humor and not a fanatic.
So too in rape culture. Sexual violence surrounds women, every girl I know has stories, is scared to walk around alone after dark etc. It's a meaningful stress on their lives and makes day by day existence noticeably harder. So when guys make light of it (actually, when ANYONE makes light of sexual violence towards women), it hits harder and causes more stress. This is why the response is necessarily harsher. Not because of the actual damage of the act being carried through, which is almost gender neutral in its effect, but because of the incidental stress and hurt it causes to a particular vulnerable group.
On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote: If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
On November 22 2014 07:00 iloveav wrote: I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified... Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling.
yep. i am hoping the rules state that this kind of language isn't allowed in general, rather than this just being a blatant double standard
Read the post below on how historical context is important to the use of certain language. Of course I think using the word "rape" referring to anyone should be punishable but I can also see how this is a bit of a bigger deal
On November 22 2014 07:26 Darkhorse wrote: Guys just don't use the word rape when talking about a video game. It'll keep you out of situations like this. I don't think Kas meant what he said, but I agree with him being DQ'd under the circumstance.
Bleh I just wish we didn't have this whole section of gamers that thinks the word "rape" is cool to throw around whenever
On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote: If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
if women want equality then give them equality.
It's basicly ban the player or give up your tournament, because no sponsor in sweden is going to go anywhere near fragbite again if they don't. This is one of the most touchy subjects in swedish society, and if you do anything that isn't as extreme as this, the sponsors and the organizer will be crucified.
I'm sure in a perfect world, fragbite would sacrifice their whole brand to make sure the word rape is used equally for both sexes, but this is far from a perfect world.
There are numerous discussions on this term on blogs and stuff on Aftonbladet Esport and how it is a terrible word that we should avoid. And the Starcraft community itself here on TL brings it up every so often. But I'm glad you guys are concerned about the useage of the word! I'm looking forward to seeing more people call out usages of the term wherever it used, whether towards men or women!
I didn't voice my opinion on the word, I'm just saying fragbite had no choice.
On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote: If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
if women want equality then give them equality.
On November 22 2014 07:00 iloveav wrote: I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified... Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling.
yep. i am hoping the rules state that this kind of language isn't allowed in general, rather than this just being a blatant double standard
Read the post below on how historical context is important to the use of certain language. Of course I think using the word "rape" referring to anyone should be punishable but I can also see how this is a bit of a bigger deal
ok well the historical context thing is your opinion
my opinion is that just because women have been raped more in history isn't going to change the hurtful effect it could have on a man who was raped or has a negative association with rape
nor do I honestly even care, personally - because while I live my life in a way that I try to treat others well, I think the levels of political correctness and 'don't offend this group' 'don't offend that group' that society has gone to is just stupid. people love to be offended. a world full of victims rather than a world full of critical thinkers.
edit for clarity:
I am not against an organization being "anti hurtful words" or however you want to describe this. however, I would rather them allow hurtful words than only disallow them for specific groups.
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community.
And frankly, anyone who thinks it is even remotely ok to post things like "I am going to rape a girl tonight" in a public space while referring to someone specific is either socially challenged or an idiot, or both. There is a limit to trash talk.
On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote: If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
if women want equality then give them equality.
On November 22 2014 07:00 iloveav wrote: I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified... Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling.
yep. i am hoping the rules state that this kind of language isn't allowed in general, rather than this just being a blatant double standard
Read the post below on how historical context is important to the use of certain language. Of course I think using the word "rape" referring to anyone should be punishable but I can also see how this is a bit of a bigger deal
ok well the historical context thing is your opinion
my opinion is that just because women have been raped more in history isn't going to change the hurtful effect it could have on a man who was raped or has a negative association with rape
nor do I honestly even care, personally - because while I live my life in a way that I try to treat others well, I think the levels of political correctness and 'don't offend this group' 'don't offend that group' that society has gone to is just stupid. people love to be offended. a world full of victims rather than a world full of critical thinkers.
You're probably just another reactionary PUA guy, but anyway: using the term rape isn't fine whether we're targeting men or women. I think it should be condemned. Will you also aid in doing that in this forum?
That sort of what I was talking about. Could have been even better, but It is still great to see that Maddelisk does not use this to paint herself as a victim, and instead tries to solve the issue.
That sort of what I was talking about. Could have been even better, but It is still great to see that Maddelisk does not use this to paint herself as a victim, and instead tries to solve the issue.
On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote: If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
if women want equality then give them equality.
On November 22 2014 07:00 iloveav wrote: I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified... Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling.
yep. i am hoping the rules state that this kind of language isn't allowed in general, rather than this just being a blatant double standard
Read the post below on how historical context is important to the use of certain language. Of course I think using the word "rape" referring to anyone should be punishable but I can also see how this is a bit of a bigger deal
ok well the historical context thing is your opinion
my opinion is that just because women have been raped more in history isn't going to change the hurtful effect it could have on a man who was raped or has a negative association with rape
nor do I honestly even care, personally - because while I live my life in a way that I try to treat others well, I think the levels of political correctness and 'don't offend this group' 'don't offend that group' that society has gone to is just stupid. people love to be offended. a world full of victims rather than a world full of critical thinkers.
You're probably just another reactionary PUA guy, but anyway: using the term rape isn't fine whether we're targeting men or women. I think it should be condemned. Will you also aid in doing that in this forum?
PUA? pickup artist? that seems like a weird thing to say. I am engaged so no
but anyways yeah, I try not to say hurtful things! but if someone says a hurtful thing to me I think about it's validity and if there is no validity I don't get offended because there is no reason to. if there is a validity then I try to accept the criticism. I think that is ideal. hard to do but ideal.
I think offending people is bad if you can help it, and so is getting offended. Kas made a mistake.
Just because statistically the trend is for one group against another group doesn't make it acceptable when said in reverse. With that logic I (a white male) could say, "About to bomb these buildings. lol", but a Muslim couldn't?
Pretty fucking stupid.
Like it or not, that's pretty much the current situation.
I didn't say it was acceptable, I said that chastisement should be less harsh. Which, in the situation you describe, is exactly what tends to happen. Fratboy makes a bomb joke and gets a talking to, Abdullah makes a bomb joke and says goodbye to privacy for the rest of his life, if he avoids prison. The reason for this is, like it or not, the former's comment is going to make a lot less people stressed out and scared than the latter's. That sucks, because Abdullah is probably a cool guy with a dark sense of humor and not a fanatic.
So too in rape culture. Sexual violence surrounds women, every girl I know has stories, is scared to walk around alone after dark etc. It's a meaningful stress on their lives and makes day by day existence noticeably harder. So when guys make light of it (actually, when ANYONE makes light of sexual violence towards women), it hits harder and causes more stress. This is why the response is necessarily harsher. Not because of the actual damage of the act being carried through, which is almost gender neutral in its effect, but because of the incidental stress and hurt it causes because of the prevalence of the behavior towards a particular group who are consequently impacted more by people treating it like it's not a big deal.
Good points but lets be real here. We are talking about bullshit being written on the internet using language that has other implications in gaming. Imagine how scary it would be if we took everything literally that we read online. Holy fuck I would never leave my house... who am I kidding I don't anyway.
On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse.
But thats how it is. Saying "Nigger" to a black person is much worse than saying it to a white person, and saying that you will "gas someone" is much worse if you say it to a jewish person.
Public statements dont just exist in a vacuum, historical and social context is always important.
rape is not exclusive to women, and it's a stupid comparison anyways because this isn't even the context in which rape was being used.
saying that you will rape someone is obviously always inacceptable. but its especially problematic when you make this statement directly to a woman, who are way more often victim of rape and sexual harassment. for a lot of them, the "joke" might be reality.
i dont quite understand what you mean with your second sentecne. you cant just use a word and act like it has no connection to it's acutal use in our society.
right move. gj fragbite. it's something entirely different to say something like that to a guy you know and wanna get on his nerves or just bust his balls a bit (jesus, see?! :D), because let's face it. we are caveman in this regard.
but to an actual smart girl who is fully commited to esports and does a lot of publicity and good for it that's just not acceptable.
On November 22 2014 06:58 duckk wrote: I have practiced with kas since wc3 2008, and he is without a doubt one of the most mannered and respectful players I know. Most likely came off differently than how he intended :/
usually people don't even think of what the word actually means anymore. I mean Original Dota got pretty nasty with how they explained things that happened in the woods. So some are to innocent to even realize what they actually wrote and some white knights are usually the more perverted ones that instantly think about the bad evil version.
On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse.
But thats how it is. Saying "Nigger" to a black person is much worse than saying it to a white person, and saying that you will "gas someone" is much worse if you say it to a jewish person.
Public statements dont just exist in a vacuum, historical and social context is always important.
rape is not exclusive to women, and it's a stupid comparison anyways because this isn't even the context in which rape was being used.
saying that you will rape someone is obviously always inacceptable. but its especially problematic when you make this statement directly to a woman, who are way more often victim of rape and sexual harassment. for a lot of them, the "joke" might be reality.
i dont quite understand what you mean with your second sentecne. you cant just use a word and act like it has no connection to it's acutal use in our society.
what I mean is that when you use the word "nigger" to a person there is only one meaning.
when you say you are going to "rape" someone, in the context of the game, everyone knows you don't mean that you are going to forcibly have your way with them.
so it's not really a good example, because those 2 situations are not the same.
Hmm don't Dota players use this term all the time? I mean out of context it's a terrible tweet but in the gaming world this just means he thinks he's going to win by a large amount in his next game. Doesn't mean that I agree that they use the term for that but he obviously didn't mean it literally. (Besides Maddelisk would beat him up IRL she's amazingly strong lol). I can understand fragbite's decision because they don't want to have to explain that shit. Still really really nasty for Maddelisk to have to read such things, but I feel a bit bad for Kas too as he'd never mean this and english is not his first language.
On November 22 2014 06:58 duckk wrote: I have practiced with kas since wc3 2008, and he is without a doubt one of the most mannered and respectful players I know. Most likely came off differently than how he intended :/
yeah kas is known for being really cool. I hope it was a case of misunderstanding the language and he clears it up and apologizes
This. I imagine it can be pretty scary being a non-English speaker in a predominately English competitive scene. Considering the fact that English is a second language to Kas and the historical usage of the word rape in the context of gaming, I think it's a reasonable possibility that Kas didn't quite know what he was saying.
It can also be scary to be a woman in a predominately male environment. I think it's good to problematize the tweet.
On November 22 2014 07:41 Holdenintherye wrote: Stupid tweet, but not sure how I feel about in-game punishment for something done out of it
Eh he hash tagged the event. I think it's fine even from your perspective.
From my perspective if you're a tournament organizer and someone says something that you and others find offensive (and potentially threatening though I know Kas did not mean it this way) you can just go ahead and axe him from your event. It's your tournament and the player has no absolute right to be there.
On November 22 2014 07:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Hmm don't Dota players use this term all the time? I mean out of context it's a terrible tweet but in the gaming world this just means he thinks he's going to win by a large amount in his next game. Doesn't mean that I agree that they use the term for that but he obviously didn't mean it literally. (Besides Maddelisk would beat him up IRL she's amazingly strong lol). I can understand fragbite's decision because they don't want to have to explain that shit. Still really really nasty for Maddelisk to have to read such things, but I feel a bit bad for Kas too as he'd never mean this and english is not his first language.
I was gonna point that out... she could kick 99% of progamers asses.
On November 22 2014 07:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Hmm don't Dota players use this term all the time? I mean out of context it's a terrible tweet but in the gaming world this just means he thinks he's going to win by a large amount in his next game. Doesn't mean that I agree that they use the term for that but he obviously didn't mean it literally. (Besides Maddelisk would beat him up IRL she's amazingly strong lol). I can understand fragbite's decision because they don't want to have to explain that shit. Still really really nasty for Maddelisk to have to read such things, but I feel a bit bad for Kas too as he'd never mean this and english is not his first language.
I was gonna point that out... she could kick 99% of progamers asses.
Well. Rape has never been about physical strength. Overall it's possible for many victims to physically break free, but it is rather the social situation which makes it able to happen. So it doesn't really matter if she's stronger or not.
On November 22 2014 07:41 Holdenintherye wrote: Stupid tweet, but not sure how I feel about in-game punishment for something done out of it
Eh he hash tagged the event. I think it's fine even from your perspective.
From my perspective if you're a tournament organizer and someone says something that you and others find offensive (and potentially threatening though I know Kas did not mean it this way) you can just go ahead and axe him from your event. It's your tournament and the player has no absolute right to be there.
Oh that's right, he hashtagged it, so I guess he kinda dragged the tournament organizers into the mess...
On November 22 2014 07:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Hmm don't Dota players use this term all the time? I mean out of context it's a terrible tweet but in the gaming world this just means he thinks he's going to win by a large amount in his next game. Doesn't mean that I agree that they use the term for that but he obviously didn't mean it literally. (Besides Maddelisk would beat him up IRL she's amazingly strong lol). I can understand fragbite's decision because they don't want to have to explain that shit. Still really really nasty for Maddelisk to have to read such things, but I feel a bit bad for Kas too as he'd never mean this and english is not his first language.
I think Kas clearly did not mean the word "rape" using its literal definition. However, I don't think it is a good idea to allow "rape" to fester in gaming communities anymore. Just because people use the term "all the time" doesn't mean we should continue doing so.
You aren't helping to get girls into gaming by using words like rape.
On November 22 2014 07:41 Holdenintherye wrote: Stupid tweet, but not sure how I feel about in-game punishment for something done out of it
Eh he hash tagged the event. I think it's fine even from your perspective.
From my perspective if you're a tournament organizer and someone says something that you and others find offensive (and potentially threatening though I know Kas did not mean it this way) you can just go ahead and axe him from your event. It's your tournament and the player has no absolute right to be there.
Oh that's right, he hashtagged it, so I guess he kinda dragged the tournament organizers into the mess...
Yeah that kind of sealed it for them. The TOs were obligated to act.
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
On November 22 2014 07:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Hmm don't Dota players use this term all the time? I mean out of context it's a terrible tweet but in the gaming world this just means he thinks he's going to win by a large amount in his next game. Doesn't mean that I agree that they use the term for that but he obviously didn't mean it literally. (Besides Maddelisk would beat him up IRL she's amazingly strong lol). I can understand fragbite's decision because they don't want to have to explain that shit. Still really really nasty for Maddelisk to have to read such things, but I feel a bit bad for Kas too as he'd never mean this and english is not his first language.
I think Kas clearly did not mean the word "rape" using its literal definition. However, I don't think it is a good idea to allow "rape" to fester in gaming communities anymore. Just because people use the term "all the time" doesn't mean we should continue doing so.
You aren't helping to get girls into gaming by using words like rape.
Oh yeah as I said it's a very understandable decision to draw a line and ban him from the tourny, I just hope Kas doesn't get in trouble too much and that this doesn't blow up more.
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
On November 22 2014 07:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Hmm don't Dota players use this term all the time? I mean out of context it's a terrible tweet but in the gaming world this just means he thinks he's going to win by a large amount in his next game. Doesn't mean that I agree that they use the term for that but he obviously didn't mean it literally. (Besides Maddelisk would beat him up IRL she's amazingly strong lol). I can understand fragbite's decision because they don't want to have to explain that shit. Still really really nasty for Maddelisk to have to read such things, but I feel a bit bad for Kas too as he'd never mean this and english is not his first language.
I think Kas clearly did not mean the word "rape" using its literal definition. However, I don't think it is a good idea to allow "rape" to fester in gaming communities anymore. Just because people use the term "all the time" doesn't mean we should continue doing so.
You aren't helping to get girls into gaming by using words like rape.
Oh yeah as I said it's a very understandable decision to draw a line and ban him from the tourny, I just hope Kas doesn't get in trouble too much and that this doesn't blow up more.
Oh I imagine it won't, and I don't think it should. Kas has apologized personally and Maddelisk has accepted it. I also think this will keep Kas from doing this again.
Basically I don't think Kas should be crucified or anything, but I think this is as good a time as any to open up a conversation about this kind of terminology (includes other hate speech in my mind e.g. retarded). This isn't as big of an issue in SC2 as in other games of course.
Hmm so rape no pointed on nickname + Sweden tourney and most of this weird cause gets miracously Sweden player Sortof who advance for free no conspiracy here? points for kas that he keeped his cool about this, cause this is bu.ls.it of high calibre. For protest i will not watch tournament easy for me i dont like unfair games behind scenes. If he sayed it in game or in lobby cause rage ok but with no point on twitter u can say u rape whole world and who cares cause words is free especcially in games on internet where nobody mean what they write in 99% of time . I guess in Sweden have no sense of humour.
PS: if u play tournament watch opponents twitters cause they can say something that u can capitalize on
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
So, in 1920, beat picked up a secondary meaning of defeating someone in competetion, while in the 2000s, rape started to pick up a secondary meaning of humiliating someone in competition. Surely not even close to the same thing.
On November 22 2014 07:50 illsick wrote: He probably doesn't understand the significance of that word with the context that he wrote it in (being English as a secondary language)
He always seems like a nice guy so he probably didn't understand the weight of those words.
Yep, I think that's the case, as I myself used that word in the past without thinking about it (I'm pretty sure I said something like "lol Nerchio raped Yonghwa" during the HSC final back then). I learned that it's really taboo, although I'm still not 100% sure why that is, since obviously nobody is talking about actual rape. As I understand it, to say you will murder, kill or crush your opponent is more ok, although they are all much worse than rape in reality, since they result in death.
So if you are not a native speaker, it can indeed be confusing.
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
So, in 1920, beat picked up a secondary meaning of defeating someone in competetion, while in the 2000s, rape started to pick up a secondary meaning of humiliating someone in competition. Surely not even close to the same thing.
Yeah sure. I'd rather we didn't pick such as shitty word to create a secondary definition for but it seems some people think the die is cast on that and there is nothing we can do to stop this "secondary definition" of rape.
And yeah it is still different TODAY because that second definition isn't at all established or agreed upon.
On November 22 2014 07:53 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On November 22 2014 07:47 Darkhorse wrote:
On November 22 2014 07:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Hmm don't Dota players use this term all the time? I mean out of context it's a terrible tweet but in the gaming world this just means he thinks he's going to win by a large amount in his next game. Doesn't mean that I agree that they use the term for that but he obviously didn't mean it literally. (Besides Maddelisk would beat him up IRL she's amazingly strong lol). I can understand fragbite's decision because they don't want to have to explain that shit. Still really really nasty for Maddelisk to have to read such things, but I feel a bit bad for Kas too as he'd never mean this and english is not his first language.
I think Kas clearly did not mean the word "rape" using its literal definition. However, I don't think it is a good idea to allow "rape" to fester in gaming communities anymore. Just because people use the term "all the time" doesn't mean we should continue doing so.
You aren't helping to get girls into gaming by using words like rape.
Oh yeah as I said it's a very understandable decision to draw a line and ban him from the tourny, I just hope Kas doesn't get in trouble too much and that this doesn't blow up more.
Oh I imagine it won't, and I don't think it should. Kas has apologized personally and Maddelisk has accepted it. I also think this will keep Kas from doing this again.
Basically I don't think Kas should be crucified or anything, but I think this is as good a time as any to open up a conversation about this kind of terminology (includes other hate speech in my mind e.g. retarded). This isn't as big of an issue in SC2 as in other games of course.
Honestly, if I were his team manager I would forbid him from ever tweeting anything anymore without my permission. If I wouldn't outright fire him on the spot that is.
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
So, in 1920, beat picked up a secondary meaning of defeating someone in competetion, while in the 2000s, rape started to pick up a secondary meaning of humiliating someone in competition. Surely not even close to the same thing.
Don't try to argue that point... it was fun being that subculture that once consisted of lik 99,8% of guys once, but those times are over and with it the way we communicate over our grudges and stuff. We are mainstream now baby! Need to behave a bit better!
Sad, Kas has never seemed like a BM guy to me. Not making excuses for him but the fact that English isn't his first language and he probably doesn't speak it much outside the not exactly PC gaming community didn't help. Hopefully this doesn't affect him going forward.
On November 22 2014 07:57 CamoPillbox wrote: Hmm so rape no pointed on nickname + Sweden tourney and most of this weird cause gets miracously Sweden player Sortof who advance for free no conspiracy here? points for kas that he keeped his cool about this, cause this is bu.ls.it of high calibre. For protest i will not watch tournament easy for me i dont like unfair games behind scenes. If he sayed it in game or in lobby cause rage ok but with no point on twitter u can say u rape whole world and who cares cause words is free especcially in games on internet where nobody mean what they write in 99% of time . I guess in Sweden have no sense of humour.
PS: if u play tournament watch opponents twitters cause they can say something that u can capitalize on
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
So, in 1920, beat picked up a secondary meaning of defeating someone in competetion, while in the 2000s, rape started to pick up a secondary meaning of humiliating someone in competition. Surely not even close to the same thing.
Yeah sure. I'd rather we didn't pick such as shitty word to create a secondary definition for but it seems some people think the die is cast on that and there is nothing we can do to stop this "secondary definition" of rape.
And yeah it is still different TODAY because that second definition isn't at all established or agreed upon.
So, if the secondary meaning was better established, it wouldn't be a problem, just like how it isn't a problem that beat makes light of physical assault?
On November 22 2014 07:57 CamoPillbox wrote: Hmm so rape no pointed on nickname + Sweden tourney and most of this weird cause gets miracously Sweden player Sortof who advance for free no conspiracy here? points for kas that he keeped his cool about this, cause this is bu.ls.it of high calibre. For protest i will not watch tournament easy for me i dont like unfair games behind scenes. If he sayed it in game or in lobby cause rage ok but with no point on twitter u can say u rape whole world and who cares cause words is free especcially in games on internet where nobody mean what they write in 99% of time . I guess in Sweden have no sense of humour.
PS: if u play tournament watch opponents twitters cause they can say something that u can capitalize on
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
So, in 1920, beat picked up a secondary meaning of defeating someone in competetion, while in the 2000s, rape started to pick up a secondary meaning of humiliating someone in competition. Surely not even close to the same thing.
Yeah sure. I'd rather we didn't pick such as shitty word to create a secondary definition for but it seems some people think the die is cast on that and there is nothing we can do to stop this "secondary definition" of rape.
And yeah it is still different TODAY because that second definition isn't at all established or agreed upon.
So, if the secondary meaning was better established, it wouldn't be a problem, just like how it isn't a problem that beat makes light of physical assault?
If you don't mind I'm going to stop swimming after this red herring now
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
So, in 1920, beat picked up a secondary meaning of defeating someone in competetion, while in the 2000s, rape started to pick up a secondary meaning of humiliating someone in competition. Surely not even close to the same thing.
Yeah sure. I'd rather we didn't pick such as shitty word to create a secondary definition for but it seems some people think the die is cast on that and there is nothing we can do to stop this "secondary definition" of rape.
And yeah it is still different TODAY because that second definition isn't at all established or agreed upon.
So, if the secondary meaning was better established, it wouldn't be a problem, just like how it isn't a problem that beat makes light of physical assault?
If you don't mind I'm going to stop swimming after this red herring now
It's fine if you don't want to explain your opinions.
On November 22 2014 07:14 Absentia wrote: Using the word 'rape' to describe beating somebody at a video game has always been distasteful; the sooner it's no longer part of gaming's vernacular the better.
I feel this fine statement deserves to be repeated because it touches the core of this issue.
Stupid drama, nothing more imo. I understand that the tournament kinda had to dq him, but that they actually "had to"is kinda embarassing tbh. I think the fact that this got so "huge" is extremely childish and shows the problem we are facing right now (everybody gets mad at rather unimportant stuff way too fast). Parting says he will rape avilo? Haha lolol Someone says the same about a gamer girl? OMG most bm of all time. That double standard is worse than his statement imo. (cause we all KNOW what he meant)
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
So, in 1920, beat picked up a secondary meaning of defeating someone in competetion, while in the 2000s, rape started to pick up a secondary meaning of humiliating someone in competition. Surely not even close to the same thing.
Yeah sure. I'd rather we didn't pick such as shitty word to create a secondary definition for but it seems some people think the die is cast on that and there is nothing we can do to stop this "secondary definition" of rape.
And yeah it is still different TODAY because that second definition isn't at all established or agreed upon.
So, if the secondary meaning was better established, it wouldn't be a problem, just like how it isn't a problem that beat makes light of physical assault?
If you don't mind I'm going to stop swimming after this red herring now
It's fine if you don't want to explain your opinions.
On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse.
But thats how it is. Saying "Nigger" to a black person is much worse than saying it to a white person, and saying that you will "gas someone" is much worse if you say it to a jewish person.
Public statements dont just exist in a vacuum, historical and social context is always important.
rape is not exclusive to women, and it's a stupid comparison anyways because this isn't even the context in which rape was being used.
saying that you will rape someone is obviously always inacceptable. but its especially problematic when you make this statement directly to a woman, who are way more often victim of rape and sexual harassment. for a lot of them, the "joke" might be reality.
i dont quite understand what you mean with your second sentecne. you cant just use a word and act like it has no connection to it's acutal use in our society.
what I mean is that when you use the word "nigger" to a person there is only one meaning.
when you say you are going to "rape" someone, in the context of the game, everyone knows you don't mean that you are going to forcibly have your way with them.
so it's not really a good example, because those 2 situations are not the same.
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what most people mean. What they don't mean is that the forceful way-having will involve their genitalia. Interestingly, there is a vast cornucopia of alternative verbiage which could be used to send a similar message in a less offensive way. Just be original and don't use the word rape which (rightly) implies a sexual context due to its unfortunate endemic nature in human history.
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
So, in 1920, beat picked up a secondary meaning of defeating someone in competetion, while in the 2000s, rape started to pick up a secondary meaning of humiliating someone in competition. Surely not even close to the same thing.
Yeah sure. I'd rather we didn't pick such as shitty word to create a secondary definition for but it seems some people think the die is cast on that and there is nothing we can do to stop this "secondary definition" of rape.
And yeah it is still different TODAY because that second definition isn't at all established or agreed upon.
So, if the secondary meaning was better established, it wouldn't be a problem, just like how it isn't a problem that beat makes light of physical assault?
There are a lot of differences between the two examples you picked. First of all, when people use the word rape they draw heavily on the symbolism often to a disturbing degree, while the word beat is no longer dependent on the primary meaning of the word. Secondly, rape is something men do to women so it becomes disturbing again when men use it triumphantly in their language as an expression of victory. Third, the emotional connotations of rape are more severe than beat.
But you know all of this, so why are you trying to play Debate Club in this thread? :/
On November 22 2014 07:57 CamoPillbox wrote: Hmm so rape no pointed on nickname + Sweden tourney and most of this weird cause gets miracously Sweden player Sortof who advance for free no conspiracy here? points for kas that he keeped his cool about this, cause this is bu.ls.it of high calibre. For protest i will not watch tournament easy for me i dont like unfair games behind scenes. If he sayed it in game or in lobby cause rage ok but with no point on twitter u can say u rape whole world and who cares cause words is free especcially in games on internet where nobody mean what they write in 99% of time . I guess in Sweden have no sense of humour.
PS: if u play tournament watch opponents twitters cause they can say something that u can capitalize on
Oh for the love of god man
With that logic on this case is MC disqualified from all tournaments nearly , there is only that MC is well known for that KAS not so they just diss him + it help Sweden player advance for free i guess i am on point . Go pray to another God maybe he will not be blind like yours.....
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
So, in 1920, beat picked up a secondary meaning of defeating someone in competetion, while in the 2000s, rape started to pick up a secondary meaning of humiliating someone in competition. Surely not even close to the same thing.
Yeah sure. I'd rather we didn't pick such as shitty word to create a secondary definition for but it seems some people think the die is cast on that and there is nothing we can do to stop this "secondary definition" of rape.
And yeah it is still different TODAY because that second definition isn't at all established or agreed upon.
So, if the secondary meaning was better established, it wouldn't be a problem, just like how it isn't a problem that beat makes light of physical assault?
If you don't mind I'm going to stop swimming after this red herring now
It's fine if you don't want to explain your opinions.
On November 22 2014 07:57 CamoPillbox wrote: Hmm so rape no pointed on nickname + Sweden tourney and most of this weird cause gets miracously Sweden player Sortof who advance for free no conspiracy here? points for kas that he keeped his cool about this, cause this is bu.ls.it of high calibre. For protest i will not watch tournament easy for me i dont like unfair games behind scenes. If he sayed it in game or in lobby cause rage ok but with no point on twitter u can say u rape whole world and who cares cause words is free especcially in games on internet where nobody mean what they write in 99% of time . I guess in Sweden have no sense of humour.
PS: if u play tournament watch opponents twitters cause they can say something that u can capitalize on
Oh for the love of god man
With that logic on this case is MC disqualified from all tournaments nearly , there is only that MC is well known for that KAS not so they just diss him + it help Sweden player advance for free i guess i am on point . Go pray to another God maybe he will not be blind like yours.....
take a nice chill pill from your box. you are not making a lot of sense.
Sometimes my emotions goes out of control, but it happens not quite often, so I think the same thing happened to Kas, don't blame him too much, he's a good guy.
I don't mind seeing double meanings in words but when you put that word in this context that argument is gone entirely. I don't think it is a big deal though, but the punishment is just. He probably regrets it we move on and an example is set. Shouldn't make too big of a deal out of this one. People are obsessed with being entirely on one side of the other. It's annoying.
Looks like Kas said something really stupid and is now sorry for it. Well, shit happens, things were said, penalties were given. Now everyone should calm down.
On November 22 2014 07:57 CamoPillbox wrote: Hmm so rape no pointed on nickname + Sweden tourney and most of this weird cause gets miracously Sweden player Sortof who advance for free no conspiracy here? points for kas that he keeped his cool about this, cause this is bu.ls.it of high calibre. For protest i will not watch tournament easy for me i dont like unfair games behind scenes. If he sayed it in game or in lobby cause rage ok but with no point on twitter u can say u rape whole world and who cares cause words is free especcially in games on internet where nobody mean what they write in 99% of time . I guess in Sweden have no sense of humour.
PS: if u play tournament watch opponents twitters cause they can say something that u can capitalize on
Oh for the love of god man
With that logic on this case is MC disqualified from all tournaments nearly , there is only that MC is well known for that KAS not so they just diss him + it help Sweden player advance for free i guess i am on point . Go pray to another God maybe he will not be blind like yours.....
take a nice chill pill from your box. you are not making a lot of sense.
If u dont read whole topic dont wrote non sense opinions of yours then.. If u want be blind be blind + yes u need use logic to get my posts sadly that is something not on your side.
On November 22 2014 07:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Hmm don't Dota players use this term all the time? I mean out of context it's a terrible tweet but in the gaming world this just means he thinks he's going to win by a large amount in his next game. Doesn't mean that I agree that they use the term for that but he obviously didn't mean it literally. (Besides Maddelisk would beat him up IRL she's amazingly strong lol). I can understand fragbite's decision because they don't want to have to explain that shit. Still really really nasty for Maddelisk to have to read such things, but I feel a bit bad for Kas too as he'd never mean this and english is not his first language.
I think Kas clearly did not mean the word "rape" using its literal definition. However, I don't think it is a good idea to allow "rape" to fester in gaming communities anymore. Just because people use the term "all the time" doesn't mean we should continue doing so.
You aren't helping to get girls into gaming by using words like rape.
Whatever Kas's intention was isn't really relevant to what his words actually meant. It just means he didn't realize what the full connotations of his statement were. Few people do, most of the time.
And also, the use of "rape" in gaming pretty clearly draws from its "IRL" definition. It connotes an act of total domination despite the potential resistance of the target, for one's own immediate gratification. Moreover, people often use it with other sexually violent imagery (references to genitalia, the anus, etc.).
Now one could argue that people are just using all of these in jest, or that they aren't serious, or that it's not "real," because it's all just words, and the worst that could happen is that some sensitive folks get their feelings hurt. But as many, many social scientists have noted for quite a while, the way we use words actually has a huge impact on how we think about the world and each other. + Show Spoiler +
See, for example, C. J. Pascoe's Dude, You're a Fag, or if you like REALLY heavy reading, Pierre Bourdieu's Language and Symbolic Power, chapter one
That means that words don't just hurt people's feelings---they can actively threaten and intimidate others, and that is a recipe for abuse. And they do this even when we don't intend it---see what happened with Kas.
On November 22 2014 07:57 CamoPillbox wrote: Hmm so rape no pointed on nickname + Sweden tourney and most of this weird cause gets miracously Sweden player Sortof who advance for free no conspiracy here? points for kas that he keeped his cool about this, cause this is bu.ls.it of high calibre. For protest i will not watch tournament easy for me i dont like unfair games behind scenes. If he sayed it in game or in lobby cause rage ok but with no point on twitter u can say u rape whole world and who cares cause words is free especcially in games on internet where nobody mean what they write in 99% of time . I guess in Sweden have no sense of humour.
PS: if u play tournament watch opponents twitters cause they can say something that u can capitalize on
Oh for the love of god man
With that logic on this case is MC disqualified from all tournaments nearly , there is only that MC is well known for that KAS not so they just diss him + it help Sweden player advance for free i guess i am on point . Go pray to another God maybe he will not be blind like yours.....
take a nice chill pill from your box. you are not making a lot of sense.
I would guess he also belives that the apollo landings were staged and the 11/11 was USAs plot to get to Iraq oil.
I like that this story might dampen the use of "rape" in "common" chat, since i also was very put off by that in the beginning and i still very much dislike it.
But i sort of agree with Nightend here... Since this could never be taken literally, even if she felt offended by that (in which case she did not play many games on bnet ?!?) stirring up that amount of drama was clearly not necessary, and the DQ is really laughable.
Kas is sorry, and he learned from his mistakes. These things happen, and while it may be completely inappropriate to post, it's definitely not the first or last time in this industry.
On November 22 2014 06:58 duckk wrote: I have practiced with kas since wc3 2008, and he is without a doubt one of the most mannered and respectful players I know. Most likely came off differently than how he intended :/
I can't think of many ways for a declaration that you're going to rape someone to not come off as at least mildly bad-mannered.
On November 22 2014 08:21 Thojorin wrote: I like that this story might dampen the use of "rape" in "common" chat, since i also was very put off by that in the beginning and i still very much dislike it.
But i sort of agree with Nightend here... Since this could never be taken literally, even if she felt offended by that (in which case she did not play many games on bnet ?!?) stirring up that amount of drama was clearly not necessary, and the DQ is really laughable.
The DQ came from Fragbite (without any influence from Maddelisk). And to me, it feels appropriate tbh. I think that maddelisk's blog entry is unnecessary though, but that's just IMHO. I mean, there's noone forcing you to read it, is there?
On November 22 2014 08:21 Thojorin wrote: I like that this story might dampen the use of "rape" in "common" chat, since i also was very put off by that in the beginning and i still very much dislike it.
But i sort of agree with Nightend here... Since this could never be taken literally, even if she felt offended by that (in which case she did not play many games on bnet ?!?) stirring up that amount of drama was clearly not necessary, and the DQ is really laughable.
Did you even read her blog ? She didn't even know about the tweet until the admins paused the game. And even if she was indeed "stirring up that amount of drama", do you really think NightEnD's words are right ?
On November 22 2014 08:31 aTnClouD wrote: lol I love Kas but this is incredibly funny. Also butthurt politically correct people gonna hate forever.
I don't think this has anything to do with being politically correct. It's much, much beyond that. I do think it's an honest mistake and not something to hold a grudge over, but definitely also not something you brush aside.
On November 22 2014 06:58 duckk wrote: I have practiced with kas since wc3 2008, and he is without a doubt one of the most mannered and respectful players I know. Most likely came off differently than how he intended :/
I can't think of many ways for a declaration that you're going to rape someone to not come off as at least mildly bad-mannered.
This. Mannered ppl don't even think in terms like that, let alone create such a message on a public twitter account. Pros also have to behave by example and get more people into the game and therefore increasing the number of sponsors and enhancing the image of eSports in general.
Definitely don't think he should've been DQ'd for it, but the tweet was clearly disrespectful.
Not even so much the "rape" portion of the tweet given the context of its history in the gaming community but rather that it's compounded with "some girl" to trivialize her as a competitor.
Kas didn't mean any harm from the comment, but he should still learn that it is not acceptable to use that kind of language. Nice that Maddelisk now gets another shot in the next round to maybe show what she is all about.
On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote: Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community..
Beat is also used super liberally, and literally means to inflict blows on.
You know full well that is not the same thing. Beat is a word with multiple definitions in the english language. The second of which is, "defeat (someone) in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture." Here is a list of the generally accepted definitions for rape. So like I said, not even close to the same thing
So, in 1920, beat picked up a secondary meaning of defeating someone in competetion, while in the 2000s, rape started to pick up a secondary meaning of humiliating someone in competition. Surely not even close to the same thing.
Yeah sure. I'd rather we didn't pick such as shitty word to create a secondary definition for but it seems some people think the die is cast on that and there is nothing we can do to stop this "secondary definition" of rape.
And yeah it is still different TODAY because that second definition isn't at all established or agreed upon.
So, if the secondary meaning was better established, it wouldn't be a problem, just like how it isn't a problem that beat makes light of physical assault?
There are a lot of differences between the two examples you picked. First of all, when people use the word rape they draw heavily on the symbolism often to a disturbing degree, while the word beat is no longer dependent on the primary meaning of the word. Secondly, rape is something men do to women so it becomes disturbing again when men use it triumphantly in their language as an expression of victory. Third, the emotional connotations of rape are more severe than beat.
But you know all of this, so why are you trying to play Debate Club in this thread? :/
1. So, indeed, if the secondary meaning was better established, it wouldn't be a problem? 2. Don't men beat women, too? 3. Physical assault is bad, but not as bad as rape so it's okay?
I'm not as much playing debate club as pointing out that every part of our language is full of this sort of metaphor. Indeed, rape meaning sexual assault is itself a metaphor - the word initially just meant take (by force). It's fine if you find rape particularly offensive, but I'd like to understand why.
Kas tweet was incredibly stupid and offensive, but what annoys me the most about this whole stupid ordeal is that aftonblad "journalist" running around on twitter semi threatening pro gamers that defended Kas.
Well the sc2 scene may be small and with what feels like a constantly falling viewerbase, but it sure as hell has political correctness on par with games & sports that have a hundred times more fans and money involved. They can never take that away from us bros. :-')
Completely agree with the punishment. Saying he was going to destroy her, fine. Saying she has no chance, fine.
Even saying "going to rape a zerg," I could probably live with. But saying "rape a girl" completely crosses a line, and there should absolutely be 0 tolerance for that shit.
On November 22 2014 06:59 Yonnua wrote: Really hope cascade drop him for this. Absolutely disgusting thing to say, especially over twitter.
Dropping an excellent and still mannered player for making a bad move and saying something that he apologized for is clearly abusive and exagerated. Stop being emotional and think with reason.
If he's making rape jokes he's hardly well-mannered. If this was done by a player that people don't like as much then sponsors would already have been contacted. He shouldn't get away with making public jokes about "raping" anyone just because a few internet dudes have decided that it's ok to use that word aggressively on the internet. It isn't, please stop trying to force this culture of using the word in that way.
It's a mixed bag, this becoming a public persona at such a young age for many of these esports stars. It's a completely unfamiliar situation for them, which they are poorly equipped to handle. Even though I don't follow LoL I've heard about several players being suspended or even fired and banned for things they said or did outside competitions. I can only imagine if I would have to deal with having ny number of my private conversations from 15-16 years of age posted on the internet for my empoyer and colleagues to see. I'd probably never have a job again.
People say and do dumb shit all the time, but our is really the first generation where these mistakes can haunt us for years to come. Kas said something that was really fucking stupid, and he apologised for it and suffered a fair consequence, which I am perfetly cool with. I just hope it stops there.
Rape in terms of esports language as for beating someone with ease has been used regularly by players since a long, long time. But still stupid by Kas to use it when playing against a girl.
This is a perfectly justifiable response from a StarCraft tournament. We're all well aware of how certain comments and actions end up hurting matches and tournaments, and sponsors are quick to lose interest in those who allow disrespectful behavior. Kas usually isn't bad-mannered but he made a small mistake and he's paying a proportionally small price for it. I'm sure he's learned his lesson, and it's not like this little tournament is a huge deal anyway. Let's move on
To anyone who thinks an athlete shouldn't be worried about what they say... You clearly have zero idea of what gaming is like in a professional setting. E-sports parallels regular sports quite well in terms of sponsorships and professional behavior. This isn't just little kids sitting around and yelling expletives at their no-name opponents. It's not a matter of "get over it, grow a backbone". It comes down to representing brands and sponsors in a positive light, and there are so many other synonyms that could be used instead of "rape" (smash, wreck, beat, own, etc.) that there's no real excuse for choosing a word as controversial as "rape". Any pro basketball, baseball, or football player would be in trouble if they posted a public tweet about raping an opponent too.
People need to understand the context in which he is speaking. Rape is literally a universal gaming term. I think people really need to chill the fuck out and stop making social issues out of every fucking thing.
Listen, you shouldn't say that and if you do, you deserve to get scrutinized and punished. If e-sports is really trying to be legit, you have to punish this. Do you think ANY sports athlete would get away with tweeting "Going to rape some girl soon #TheTournamentI'mParticipatingIn". Hell no. And guess what gents, women get raped. Statistically, everyone here (whether they know it or not) knows a girl who has been the victim of rape or attempted rape. Joking about this is terrible. I know rape has a different sense in a gamers mind, but no matter what Kas, Nightwhatever, or anyone else says, he was specifically playing on both rape terms in that tweet. Playing it off like he didn't is just ignorant. He absolutely should be removed from the tournament (if not more). For that Night guy to tweet that crap afterwards to her is just ridiculous. He is obviously blindly trying to protect a friend but seriously boy, don't be so damn ignorant to not realize your buddy was in the complete wrong.
Sure, you can tweet whatever the hell you want and say (almost) anything you want legally speaking, but when you're in the public eye, you are held accountable to the crap you say. The reason why legit sport leagues around the world have code of conduct rules in place is because people look up to professional athletes (including you gamers). Even celebrities have code of conduct policies set in place with their employers.
Kas F'd up and got punished (been there). Apparently he apologized and made it up to Maddelisk. That's great and goes a long way. He can be removed from this tournament and move on with a lesson learned (I'm sure his sponsors promptly provided a good learning experience for him as well). If anything good comes out of this, it's that this sets a stark reminder to pros that they need to conduct themselves accordingly. Because let's face it, if this crap happened all the time, companies that sponsor e-sports will look at this community and professionally say "F*#$ getting involved in that". If that happens, you can kiss your life of a foreign progamer good bye and settle for maybe a local lan and a WCG once a year like we had to in the old days of SC:BW. In that scenario, if you practice constantly, and win everything, you might walk away with $1,500! Woopi F*#$in Do... No one wants that digression in e-sports.
As for Nightwhatever, that kid still needs to sack up, be a man, and admit he's wrong, admit Kas was wrong, and apologize to Maddelisk.
If you think this is okay in any way you really don't understand.
Words mean things and yes they do offend people. If we want the scene to grow and we want women to participate they need to feel welcome. This kind of language just creates a harsh environment for women. Its one thing to use generic trash talk, but when you direct a term like rape to a woman its big nono.
Directing the term rape to anyone is terrible but we need to remember that rape specifically the word rape was originally a term that only applied to women being sexually assaulted by men, so the sensitivity is there. We need to keep these things in mind, its part of being reasonable adults.
I mean honestly, if you think this kind of stuff is okay, then I seriously question your maturity.
Its one thing to understand and forgive Kas for his mistake, but its another thing to try and justify the underlying message and acceptance of this kind of language - in general.
I don't think Kas meant to seriously threaten or insult Maddelisk, but the language is used by lots of people in lots of contexts and this is wrong. We should focus on changing the core of the issue instead of just flaming Kas.
On November 22 2014 09:20 Kazahk wrote: People need to understand the context in which he is speaking. Rape is literally a universal gaming term. I think people really need to chill the fuck out and stop making social issues out of every fucking thing.
It's also common to call someone a bitch in game. So I guess it'd also be totally fine for him to tweet "I'm going to beat this bitch."
On November 22 2014 09:20 Kazahk wrote: People need to understand the context in which he is speaking. Rape is literally a universal gaming term. I think people really need to chill the fuck out and stop making social issues out of every fucking thing.
women are raped every day. women are threatened with rape every day. we have no way of knowing if maddelisk is a survivor of abuse or assault. it's a social issue because it's a social issue, not because people feel like getting offended. "literally a universal gaming term"? so what the fuck is your point? i've gamed online for years and people will say anything to trash talk you. the n word, talking about raping people's mothers, murdering their families, etc. just because people use offensive abusive language commonly how does that make it acceptable or cool?
people wonder why there are few women trying to compete in esports? yeah maybe the fact that it's largely a boys'club where if you don't want to be threatened with rape you should apparently either get over it or not play at all
On November 22 2014 09:20 Kazahk wrote: People need to understand the context in which he is speaking. Rape is literally a universal gaming term. I think people really need to chill the fuck out and stop making social issues out of every fucking thing.
It's also common to call someone a bitch in game. So I guess it'd also be totally fine for him to tweet "I'm going to beat this bitch."
Drama queen gets another victim and Swedish tourney get another Swedish player for free from group I guess i know who is bitch here . Kas is only Sad that he was stupid to give them something to use as excuse.... I dont see democracy here.... Free word u cant if u dont know there is still few nazi
On November 22 2014 09:20 Kazahk wrote: People need to understand the context in which he is speaking. Rape is literally a universal gaming term. I think people really need to chill the fuck out and stop making social issues out of every fucking thing.
It's also common to call someone a bitch in game. So I guess it'd also be totally fine for him to tweet "I'm going to beat this bitch."
Why I said context He didn't say: I'm going to rape Madelisk in blah blah blah which would imply that it is game related and therefore not the common defenition of rape.
For you it sound like your going to beat your wife or something. Saying I'm going to beat this bitch in poker makes you think of a totally different situation. Which is basically my point, its like one of those things that sound wrong when you walk into a conversation. It was an accident and I think being punished that severely over something you thought nothing of because you are used to those kinds of phrases thrown around with out people even saying anything about it.
Its basically cutting off key points of the sentence because you assume your audience knows what your talking about.
On November 22 2014 09:38 ZeromuS wrote: If you think this is okay in any way you really don't understand.
Words mean things and yes they do offend people. If we want the scene to grow and we want women to participate they need to feel welcome. This kind of language just creates a harsh environment for women. Its one thing to use generic trash talk, but when you direct a term like rape to a woman its big nono.
Directing the term rape to anyone is terrible but we need to remember that rape specifically the word rape was originally a term that only applied to women being sexually assaulted by men, so the sensitivity is there. We need to keep these things in mind, its part of being reasonable adults.
I mean honestly, if you think this kind of stuff is okay, then I seriously question your maturity.
Its one thing to understand and forgive Kas for his mistake, but its another thing to try and justify the underlying message and acceptance of this kind of language - in general.
I don't think Kas meant to seriously threaten or insult Maddelisk, but the language is used by lots of people in lots of contexts and this is wrong. We should focus on changing the core of the issue instead of just flaming Kas.
im not saying its socially acceptable, im not saying kas shouldnt get banned from the tournament, hell im not even saying maddelisk and other people dont get offended by it. i'm saying i'm dissappointed by peoples reactions to the tweet personally, especially maddelisk herself. im dissapointed in humanity in the end.
if i'm offended, in no matter what harsh way, i just deal with it. i don't reteweet it, tell the touranment organizers and make a blog about it. do you know why i would never do that? cuz im an adult with a working brain.
she knows the consequences very well, which one of it is threads like this with so many opinions based on their society mindfucked brains which frankly offend me.
this is where i question maddelisks maturity, and the maturity of so many other ppl - not mine.
On November 22 2014 09:20 Kazahk wrote: People need to understand the context in which he is speaking. Rape is literally a universal gaming term. I think people really need to chill the fuck out and stop making social issues out of every fucking thing.
It's also common to call someone a bitch in game. So I guess it'd also be totally fine for him to tweet "I'm going to beat this bitch."
Drama queen gets another victim and Swedish tourney get another Swedish player for free from group I guess i know who is bitch here . Kas is only Sad that he was stupid to give them something to use a excuse.... I dont see democracy here.... Free word u cant if u dont know there is still few nazi
LOL, do you have a job? go into your job and threaten to rape a female employee and then say it was a "joke" and we'll see how you think "free words" are supposed to work
how about free from intimidation? free from threats? threatening rape is a crime.
On November 22 2014 09:20 Kazahk wrote: People need to understand the context in which he is speaking. Rape is literally a universal gaming term. I think people really need to chill the fuck out and stop making social issues out of every fucking thing.
women are raped every day. women are threatened with rape every day. we have no way of knowing if maddelisk is a survivor of abuse or assault. it's a social issue because it's a social issue, not because people feel like getting offended. "literally a universal gaming term"? so what the fuck is your point? i've gamed online for years and people will say anything to trash talk you. the n word, talking about raping people's mothers, murdering their families, etc. just because people use offensive abusive language commonly how does that make it acceptable or cool?
people wonder why there are few women trying to compete in esports? yeah maybe the fact that it's largely a boys'club where if you don't want to be threatened with rape you should apparently either get over it or not play at all
yes, rape is an issue. to females more then to men, most likely yes. yes, you shouldnt tweet something like that if you expect to play in that tournament.
should you rant like a little girl, unable to deal with it (especially in the context of KNOWING that kas is a really friendly guy who surely didnt mean it the bad way), and go all out on social media? to me, thats far more disgusting than kas tweet. at least i can release her from the list of ppl i respect. math phd doesnt help there
€: was about to answer yet another incredibly stupid comment, but its no use. most people seem to walk around the world blindly, completly dumbed by the society, media and generalized moral they were born into. pretty sad, but i guess i cant change the world. back to the starcraft ladder
On November 22 2014 09:38 ZeromuS wrote: If you think this is okay in any way you really don't understand.
Words mean things and yes they do offend people. If we want the scene to grow and we want women to participate they need to feel welcome. This kind of language just creates a harsh environment for women. Its one thing to use generic trash talk, but when you direct a term like rape to a woman its big nono.
Directing the term rape to anyone is terrible but we need to remember that rape specifically the word rape was originally a term that only applied to women being sexually assaulted by men, so the sensitivity is there. We need to keep these things in mind, its part of being reasonable adults.
I mean honestly, if you think this kind of stuff is okay, then I seriously question your maturity.
Its one thing to understand and forgive Kas for his mistake, but its another thing to try and justify the underlying message and acceptance of this kind of language - in general.
I don't think Kas meant to seriously threaten or insult Maddelisk, but the language is used by lots of people in lots of contexts and this is wrong. We should focus on changing the core of the issue instead of just flaming Kas.
im not saying its socially acceptable, im not saying kas shouldnt get banned from the tournament, hell im not even saying maddelisk and other people dont get offended by it. i'm saying i'm dissappointed by peoples reactions to the tweet personally, especially maddelisk herself. im dissapointed in humanity in the end.
if i'm offended, in no matter what harsh way, i just deal with it. i don't reteweet it, tell the touranment organizers and make a blog about it. do you know why i would never do that? cuz im an adult with a working brain.
she knows the consequences very well, which one of it is threads like this with so many opinions based on their society mindfucked brains which frankly offend me.
this is where i question maddelisks maturity, and the maturity of so many other ppl - not mine.
trying to separate being offended at a rape threat onlinefrom the actual tangible problem of a rape culture that marginalizes real world rape and humiliates real world rape victims is an absurd act of mental gymnastics. the point of being offended isn't winning political correctness points, it's too reinforce the message across all parts of culture, including esports, that rape is not a joke or a normal part of life, it's a hideous act of violence and abuse. saying no to kas' tweet is saying no to the sexual intimidation of women
This is really why i hate terms like "political correcteness, tolerance, etc". This was simple joke which was interpretated badly. I think western europe should ask themselves where this is going for, did that thing went to far. Baning Kas was nonsence since even the biggest IQ "coconut" could see that this was joke and not a threat. I really cant believe this happened. We all differ in some terms, is that humour or politeness but this blown me away.
^Nah, brickrd, you're taking his post too seriously, he was just trying to make sure that unaware people would know to remove the name DiaBoLuS from the list of people they have even a shred of respect f...oh wait a moment...
On November 22 2014 09:20 Kazahk wrote: People need to understand the context in which he is speaking. Rape is literally a universal gaming term. I think people really need to chill the fuck out and stop making social issues out of every fucking thing.
It's also common to call someone a bitch in game. So I guess it'd also be totally fine for him to tweet "I'm going to beat this bitch."
Drama queen gets another victim and Swedish tourney get another Swedish player for free from group I guess i know who is bitch here . Kas is only Sad that he was stupid to give them something to use a excuse.... I dont see democracy here.... Free word u cant if u dont know there is still few nazi
LOL, do you have a job? go into your job and threaten to rape a female employee and then say it was a "joke" and we'll see how you think "free words" are supposed to work
how about free from intimidation? free from threats? threatening rape is a crime.[/QUOTE]
Rofcopter ye i have job and also i have question do you have brain or u totaly brainwashed typical american guy?
Real life threats and Threats on internet in game are totaly diferent especially if its clearly joke also not pointed by name. I already got 172 cancers wishes and nearly 54 rapes in games. Yet i am still healthy and my ass is babylike. Im pretty sure that no one invite maddelisk anywhere now...especially if they dont want stupid drama and even stupides behind scenes Sweden players friendly walkovers. We need to create DRAMA Queen tournament where everyone will watch twitter of opponets until they got walkover.Im sure We already know the winner !!! -- removed --
On November 22 2014 09:38 ZeromuS wrote: If you think this is okay in any way you really don't understand.
Words mean things and yes they do offend people. If we want the scene to grow and we want women to participate they need to feel welcome. This kind of language just creates a harsh environment for women. Its one thing to use generic trash talk, but when you direct a term like rape to a woman its big nono.
Directing the term rape to anyone is terrible but we need to remember that rape specifically the word rape was originally a term that only applied to women being sexually assaulted by men, so the sensitivity is there. We need to keep these things in mind, its part of being reasonable adults.
I mean honestly, if you think this kind of stuff is okay, then I seriously question your maturity.
Its one thing to understand and forgive Kas for his mistake, but its another thing to try and justify the underlying message and acceptance of this kind of language - in general.
I don't think Kas meant to seriously threaten or insult Maddelisk, but the language is used by lots of people in lots of contexts and this is wrong. We should focus on changing the core of the issue instead of just flaming Kas.
im not saying its socially acceptable, im not saying kas shouldnt get banned from the tournament, hell im not even saying maddelisk and other people dont get offended by it. i'm saying i'm dissappointed by peoples reactions to the tweet personally, especially maddelisk herself. im dissapointed in humanity in the end.
if i'm offended, in no matter what harsh way, i just deal with it. i don't reteweet it, tell the touranment organizers and make a blog about it. do you know why i would never do that? cuz im an adult with a working brain.
she knows the consequences very well, which one of it is threads like this with so many opinions based on their society mindfucked brains which frankly offend me.
this is where i question maddelisks maturity, and the maturity of so many other ppl - not mine.
trying to separate being offended at a rape threat onlinefrom the actual tangible problem of a rape culture that marginalizes real world rape and humiliates real world rape victims is an absurd act of mental gymnastics. the point of being offended isn't winning political correctness points, it's too reinforce the message across all parts of culture, including esports, that rape is not a joke or a normal part of life, it's a hideous act of violence and abuse. saying no to kas' tweet is saying no to the sexual intimidation of women
thanks for the first acutal argumentation from someone who thinks differently. wow, people acutally think, im impressed and relieved. Yet i don't think it sets a point across all parts of esports that rape isnt a joke. saying no to kas tweet is saying "i get offended by tweets that are meant to be funny, but someone didnt understand you cant word what you tried to said like that". It's not saying "no" to rape, its saying "no" to ever use the word rape in context of "defeat" in the small world of e-sport when ur talking to a woman. which is debateable in itself.
i wonder what the reaction would be if someone tweeted to kas "i'm going to destroy your base like the rebels bombed your homeland". wonder how many people would think that's a funny joke or tell him to get over it for being emotional in response?
Kas is a nice guy in general, I would not put him into the same category as a chauvinist pig or something.
fact #2
That tweet was stupid no matter how you look at it really.
fact #3 Fragbite was right to ban him. esports is not a playground of cave dwellers anymore, sponsors and organisations do care, so does and should society and people in general. nothing about politcal correctness or feminism.
On November 22 2014 10:05 JanDe wrote: This is really why i hate terms like "political correcteness, tolerance, etc". This was simple joke which was interpretated badly. I think western europe should ask themselves where this is going for, did that thing went to far. Baning Kas was nonsence since even the biggest IQ "coconut" could see that this was joke and not a threat. I really cant believe this happened. We all differ in some terms, is that humour or politeness but this blown me away.
On November 22 2014 10:12 brickrd wrote: i wonder what the reaction would be if someone tweeted to kas "i'm going to destroy your base like the rebels bombed your homeland". wonder how many people would think that's a funny joke or tell him to get over it for being emotional in response?
Why is it up to other people to react in the way you see fit to something that doesn't affect them? Do you even know if Kas would be offended by that?
Clearly unprofessional language being used in conjunction with a professional environment, DQ completely justified. This is literally supposed to be your job, if I post on social media that I'm going to rape my co-workers and hashtag it with my company name I would get fired on the spot.
On November 22 2014 10:12 brickrd wrote: i wonder what the reaction would be if someone tweeted to kas "i'm going to destroy your base like the rebels bombed your homeland". wonder how many people would think that's a funny joke or tell him to get over it for being emotional in response?
On November 22 2014 10:12 zev318 wrote: id bet all my real life money that if a girl tweeted this to a guy. we'd all be having a jolly time laughing at it and nothing would come of it.
You mean if a professional female athlete posted "Going to rape some guy soon" on social media in front of millions of people, you don't think she would get into trouble?
On November 22 2014 10:12 zev318 wrote: id bet all my real life money that if a girl tweeted this to a guy. we'd all be having a jolly time laughing at it and nothing would come of it.
You mean if a professional female athlete posted "Going to rape some guy soon" on social media in front of millions of people, you don't think she would get into trouble?
That's not a smart bet for you to make.
ya like if this same situation was reversed. i dont think she would. nor would anything have happened if it was same-sex
On November 22 2014 10:12 zev318 wrote: id bet all my real life money that if a girl tweeted this to a guy. we'd all be having a jolly time laughing at it and nothing would come of it.
You mean if a professional female athlete posted "Going to rape some guy soon" on social media in front of millions of people, you don't think she would get into trouble?
That's not a smart bet for you to make.
what about some korean pro saying he going to rape other korean pro ?... :p
Disgusting tweet, good response by Fragbite, and Kas seems be sincere with his regret. If the rape joke-enthusiasts just stay in their caves, all will be well again in Starcraft land.
On November 22 2014 09:20 Kazahk wrote: People need to understand the context in which he is speaking. Rape is literally a universal gaming term. I think people really need to chill the fuck out and stop making social issues out of every fucking thing.
It's also common to call someone a bitch in game. So I guess it'd also be totally fine for him to tweet "I'm going to beat this bitch."
Why I said context He didn't say: I'm going to rape Madelisk in blah blah blah which would imply that it is game related and therefore not the common defenition of rape.
For you it sound like your going to beat your wife or something. Saying I'm going to beat this bitch in poker makes you think of a totally different situation. Which is basically my point, its like one of those things that sound wrong when you walk into a conversation. It was an accident and I think being punished that severely over something you thought nothing of because you are used to those kinds of phrases thrown around with out people even saying anything about it.
Its basically cutting off key points of the sentence because you assume your audience knows what your talking about.
You don't say "I'm going to rape this girl," just like you don't say "I'm going to whip this black guy." It's just common sense. Yes, he didn't mean that he was literally going to rape her, but saying something like that wouldn't be allowed in ANY professional event. You think sponsors want to be involved with something in which people are publicly saying they're going to rape girls, regardless of context?
On November 22 2014 10:12 zev318 wrote: id bet all my real life money that if a girl tweeted this to a guy. we'd all be having a jolly time laughing at it and nothing would come of it.
You mean if a professional female athlete posted "Going to rape some guy soon" on social media in front of millions of people, you don't think she would get into trouble?
That's not a smart bet for you to make.
ya like if this same situation was reversed. i dont think she would.
Well please get a professional female athlete to do exactly that, and we'll see how things turn out.
Otherwise, your whining about double standards is baseless.
On November 22 2014 10:13 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I just hope this blows over for Kas now. it was dumb, but not out of malice or bigotry I don't think.
It has really. His DQ was fair, and he has accepted it. Most of the arguing is not about him, but rather about double standards, and the handling of other instances of similar situations.
On November 22 2014 10:13 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I just hope this blows over for Kas now. it was dumb, but not out of malice or bigotry I don't think.
It has really. His DQ was fair, and he has accepted it. Most of the arguing is not about him, but rather about double standards, and the handling of other instances of similar situations.
What double standards, even if these imaginary double standards exist, tell organizers to fix those double standards and apply a harsh punishment just like this case if they ever want to be professional organizations and professional gamers, instead of just nobodies who play video games and act like 12 year olds on internet forums.
It was a crappy joke, he apologized, she accepted that and he got DQ'd from an event, pretty reasonably, considering the circumstance. No company is really going to be happy about someone using a hashtag for their event for something like this, let alone a player at that event saying making that kind of joke towards another player at that event.
Good to see that life goes on for everyone involved.
On November 22 2014 09:38 ZeromuS wrote: If you think this is okay in any way you really don't understand.
Words mean things and yes they do offend people. If we want the scene to grow and we want women to participate they need to feel welcome. This kind of language just creates a harsh environment for women. Its one thing to use generic trash talk, but when you direct a term like rape to a woman its big nono.
Directing the term rape to anyone is terrible but we need to remember that rape specifically the word rape was originally a term that only applied to women being sexually assaulted by men, so the sensitivity is there. We need to keep these things in mind, its part of being reasonable adults.
I mean honestly, if you think this kind of stuff is okay, then I seriously question your maturity.
Its one thing to understand and forgive Kas for his mistake, but its another thing to try and justify the underlying message and acceptance of this kind of language - in general.
I don't think Kas meant to seriously threaten or insult Maddelisk, but the language is used by lots of people in lots of contexts and this is wrong. We should focus on changing the core of the issue instead of just flaming Kas.
im not saying its socially acceptable, im not saying kas shouldnt get banned from the tournament, hell im not even saying maddelisk and other people dont get offended by it. i'm saying i'm dissappointed by peoples reactions to the tweet personally, especially maddelisk herself. im dissapointed in humanity in the end.
if i'm offended, in no matter what harsh way, i just deal with it. i don't reteweet it, tell the touranment organizers and make a blog about it. do you know why i would never do that? cuz im an adult with a working brain.
she knows the consequences very well, which one of it is threads like this with so many opinions based on their society mindfucked brains which frankly offend me.
this is where i question maddelisks maturity, and the maturity of so many other ppl - not mine.
Always question your own maturity first. I completely disagree. There's an obvious disconnect with a large number of gamers and reality when it comes to what's acceptable or not - especially regarding women. These issues need to be brought to light so hopefully a some people (eventually most) will come around. I have a lot more I'd love to say on the topic but I'll save that for a possible blog... for now; Kas thought he had a clever joke, unfortunately it was over the line. He was reprimanded for it. Hopefully we can remove rape from our gamer dictionary.
"rape" used to be common gamer slang but it's faded away a bit in the past 5 years in favor of more neutral terms like "rekt" or "destroyed", in 2009 no one would bat an eye at this but in 2014 we've decided collectively to be a bit more careful with our language i guess? So I'd say his DQ is fair.
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
On November 22 2014 07:04 Paljas wrote: The tweet was a disgrace, punishment was appropriate. Kas apparently apologized and Maddelisk seemed to be fine with the apology, so we should not start a witchhunt against either side.
And NightEnd is a fucking idiot
pretty much this. Inappropriate tweet and he got punished so case closed imo.
On November 22 2014 07:04 Paljas wrote: The tweet was a disgrace, punishment was appropriate. Kas apparently apologized and Maddelisk seemed to be fine with the apology, so we should not start a witchhunt against either side.
And NightEnd is a fucking idiot
pretty much this. Inappropriate tweet and he got punished so case closed imo.
Agreed. Kas seems sincerely sorry and it looks like he and Maddelisk sorted things out, and I doubt it'll happen again.
We really need to move on lol. With IdrA and Naniwa and Stephano gone, people have been thirsty for inappropriate drama.
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
What's wrong with fighting games?
I'm confused. It's like you think twitch chat represents the FGC but doesn't represent SC2...
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
What's wrong with fighting games?
I'm confused. It's like you think twitch chat represents the FGC but doesn't represent SC2...
SC2 twitch chat doesn't represent TL or most of reddit, it's two communities almost.
On November 22 2014 10:21 Cheren wrote: "rape" used to be common gamer slang but it's faded away a bit in the past 5 years in favor of more neutral terms like "rekt" or "destroyed", in 2009 no one would bat an eye at this but in 2014 we've decided collectively to be a bit more careful with our language i guess? So I'd say his DQ is fair.
ye its deserved.. i mean you just cant tweet that stuff lot of people are going to see it...
but ye "rape" is still used a lot at least here and it kinda only used in gaming context cause we wont use the portuguese word for rape cause it would sound horrible and be more serious. we actually use "rape" inbetween portuguese words.think non native english speakers sometimes dont get the impact some words can have.
so ye that tweet was wrong.. but dont crucify Kas for it..
(hope i didnt offend anyone with the word "crucify")
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
What's wrong with fighting games?
I'm confused. It's like you think twitch chat represents the FGC but doesn't represent SC2...
SC2 twitch chat doesn't represent TL or most of reddit, it's two communities almost.
FGC twitch chat doesn't represent shoryuken, neogaf, eventhubs etc or most of reddit. It's two communites almost
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
What's wrong with fighting games?
I'm confused. It's like you think twitch chat represents the FGC but doesn't represent SC2...
SC2 twitch chat doesn't represent TL or most of reddit, it's two communities almost.
FGC twitch chat doesn't represent shoryuken, neogaf, eventhubs etc or most of reddit. It's two communites almost
FGC is the one community that had a systematic backlash against being professional and is filled day to day with stupid drama and people acting like man-childs, not saying that there aren't amazing individuals in that community who put in DECADES of work just like BW legends, I just listed it because people on these forums continuously complain about professional conduct and defend stupid shit like these tweets.
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
What's wrong with fighting games?
I'm confused. It's like you think twitch chat represents the FGC but doesn't represent SC2...
SC2 twitch chat doesn't represent TL or most of reddit, it's two communities almost.
FGC twitch chat doesn't represent shoryuken, neogaf, eventhubs etc or most of reddit. It's two communites almost
It's not really two different communities, it's just the anonymity of those chats. They move so quickly. You don't really associate people with the comments being made, unless you're hanging out on a smaller channel. So people tend to act a bit stupid on those chats, as opposed to on shoryuken/TL, where you will get banned/criticized for being an idiot.
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
What's wrong with fighting games?
I'm confused. It's like you think twitch chat represents the FGC but doesn't represent SC2...
SC2 twitch chat doesn't represent TL or most of reddit, it's two communities almost.
FGC twitch chat doesn't represent shoryuken, neogaf, eventhubs etc or most of reddit. It's two communites almost
FGC is the one community that had a systematic backlash against being professional and is filled day to day with stupid drama and people acting like man-childs, not saying that there aren't amazing individuals in that community who put in DECADES of work just like BW legends, I just listed it because people on these forums continuously complain about professional conduct and defend stupid shit like these tweets.
so
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
is complaining AND defending tweets that don't affect me. ok
On November 22 2014 09:38 ZeromuS wrote: If you think this is okay in any way you really don't understand.
Words mean things and yes they do offend people. If we want the scene to grow and we want women to participate they need to feel welcome. This kind of language just creates a harsh environment for women. Its one thing to use generic trash talk, but when you direct a term like rape to a woman its big nono.
Directing the term rape to anyone is terrible but we need to remember that rape specifically the word rape was originally a term that only applied to women being sexually assaulted by men, so the sensitivity is there. We need to keep these things in mind, its part of being reasonable adults.
I mean honestly, if you think this kind of stuff is okay, then I seriously question your maturity.
Its one thing to understand and forgive Kas for his mistake, but its another thing to try and justify the underlying message and acceptance of this kind of language - in general.
I don't think Kas meant to seriously threaten or insult Maddelisk, but the language is used by lots of people in lots of contexts and this is wrong. We should focus on changing the core of the issue instead of just flaming Kas.
im not saying its socially acceptable, im not saying kas shouldnt get banned from the tournament, hell im not even saying maddelisk and other people dont get offended by it. i'm saying i'm dissappointed by peoples reactions to the tweet personally, especially maddelisk herself. im dissapointed in humanity in the end.
if i'm offended, in no matter what harsh way, i just deal with it. i don't reteweet it, tell the touranment organizers and make a blog about it. do you know why i would never do that? cuz im an adult with a working brain.
she knows the consequences very well, which one of it is threads like this with so many opinions based on their society mindfucked brains which frankly offend me.
this is where i question maddelisks maturity, and the maturity of so many other ppl - not mine.
Admit rape tweet is offensive ---> claim tweet criticizing tweet saying "bout to rape a girl" is worse than rape tweet ---> admit retardation.
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
What's wrong with fighting games?
I'm confused. It's like you think twitch chat represents the FGC but doesn't represent SC2...
SC2 twitch chat doesn't represent TL or most of reddit, it's two communities almost.
FGC twitch chat doesn't represent shoryuken, neogaf, eventhubs etc or most of reddit. It's two communites almost
FGC is the one community that had a systematic backlash against being professional and is filled day to day with stupid drama and people acting like man-childs, not saying that there aren't amazing individuals in that community who put in DECADES of work just like BW legends, I just listed it because people on these forums continuously complain about professional conduct and defend stupid shit like these tweets.
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
is complaining AND defending tweets that don't affect me. ok
Professional sports has certain standards that we don't even have in Starcraft, that's why people DON'T GET PAID prize money or salary from tournaments / teams, and players are forced to retire from shady corporate practice and lack of community support. We all know professional sports has problems, but Esports is EVEN WORSE right now, we should aim to be just as professional as professional sports and overcome those crippling problems that professional sports have. Again if even professional sports doesn't tolerate shit like this (which you apparently look down on), why is there anyone making excuses for Has / Nightend?
On November 22 2014 06:47 DinoMight wrote: Can a tournament DQ someone for what they say in their personal time though?
If he hashtags the tournament, I don't see why not...
A tournament can DQ someone for whatever reason they want really. Tournaments are private organizations run by a business entity, they are not required to follow the same rules that a government is.
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
What's wrong with fighting games?
I'm confused. It's like you think twitch chat represents the FGC but doesn't represent SC2...
SC2 twitch chat doesn't represent TL or most of reddit, it's two communities almost.
FGC twitch chat doesn't represent shoryuken, neogaf, eventhubs etc or most of reddit. It's two communites almost
FGC is the one community that had a systematic backlash against being professional and is filled day to day with stupid drama and people acting like man-childs, not saying that there aren't amazing individuals in that community who put in DECADES of work just like BW legends, I just listed it because people on these forums continuously complain about professional conduct and defend stupid shit like these tweets.
so
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
is complaining AND defending tweets that don't affect me. ok
Professional sports has certain standards that we don't even have in Starcraft, that's why people DON'T GET PAID prize money or salary from tournaments / teams, and players are forced to retire from shady corporate practice and lack of community support. We all know professional sports has problems, but Esports is EVEN WORSE right now, we should aim to be just as professional as professional sports and overcome those crippling problems that professional sports have. Again if even professional sports doesn't tolerate shit like this (which you apparently look down on), why is there anyone making excuses for Has / Nightend?
People who take such definite stances on something that affects a total of 3 parties (maddelisk, Kas, tournament organization) are just looking for something to argue about.
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
What's wrong with fighting games?
I'm confused. It's like you think twitch chat represents the FGC but doesn't represent SC2...
SC2 twitch chat doesn't represent TL or most of reddit, it's two communities almost.
FGC twitch chat doesn't represent shoryuken, neogaf, eventhubs etc or most of reddit. It's two communites almost
FGC is the one community that had a systematic backlash against being professional and is filled day to day with stupid drama and people acting like man-childs, not saying that there aren't amazing individuals in that community who put in DECADES of work just like BW legends, I just listed it because people on these forums continuously complain about professional conduct and defend stupid shit like these tweets.
so
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
is complaining AND defending tweets that don't affect me. ok
Professional sports has certain standards that we don't even have in Starcraft, that's why people DON'T GET PAID prize money or salary from tournaments / teams, and players are forced to retire from shady corporate practice and lack of community support. We all know professional sports has problems, but Esports is EVEN WORSE right now, we should aim to be just as professional as professional sports and overcome those crippling problems that professional sports have. Again if even professional sports doesn't tolerate shit like this (which you apparently look down on), why is there anyone making excuses for Has / Nightend?
People who take such definite stances on something that affects a total of 3 parties (maddelisk, Kas, tournament organization) are just looking for something to argue about.
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
FGC is that way, don't let the door hit you while you leave.
What's wrong with fighting games?
I'm confused. It's like you think twitch chat represents the FGC but doesn't represent SC2...
SC2 twitch chat doesn't represent TL or most of reddit, it's two communities almost.
FGC twitch chat doesn't represent shoryuken, neogaf, eventhubs etc or most of reddit. It's two communites almost
FGC is the one community that had a systematic backlash against being professional and is filled day to day with stupid drama and people acting like man-childs, not saying that there aren't amazing individuals in that community who put in DECADES of work just like BW legends, I just listed it because people on these forums continuously complain about professional conduct and defend stupid shit like these tweets.
so
On November 22 2014 10:22 Fecalfeast wrote: Why do we want starcraft to be held to the same standard as professional sports, again? I think that's a terrible thing to aspire to.
is complaining AND defending tweets that don't affect me. ok
Professional sports has certain standards that we don't even have in Starcraft, that's why people DON'T GET PAID prize money or salary from tournaments / teams, and players are forced to retire from shady corporate practice and lack of community support. We all know professional sports has problems, but Esports is EVEN WORSE right now, we should aim to be just as professional as professional sports and overcome those crippling problems that professional sports have. Again if even professional sports doesn't tolerate shit like this (which you apparently look down on), why is there anyone making excuses for Has / Nightend?
People who take such definite stances on something that affects a total of 3 parties (maddelisk, Kas, tournament organization) are just looking for something to argue about.
It affects everyone capable of learning from the mistakes of others - and people who might otherwise be put in similar situations if not for the people who learn from this.
I feel bad for Kas, but I also feel like the tournament had no options but to DQ him at this point. This is simply not the kind of conduct an organization can be seen as condoning.
I also feel bad for Maddelisk for being put in such an awkward situation.
I am most angry at NightEnD. Kas' tweet was inapropriate, but IMO it has nothing on NightEnD's personal attack on Maddelisk.
"Rape" is not a negative conotation in gaming and "nigga" is not a negative connotation in real life at least in alot of societies in the US. Proffessionals, specifically NBA and NFL players use "nigga" all the time. Kas knew he was far better than maddelisk and it was clearly a joke. Its definitely not worth a suspension. It should only be bannable offense if he were to use something more derogatory such as "pussy" or "faggot" in his tweets which is completely unacceptable. "Rape" is not really negative in gaming culture. Fragbite Masters admin were too harsh on this one.
This is the esports equivalent of someone like Bastian Schweinsteiger saying "Our plays will work better than Zyklon B!" In reference to an upcoming match against an Israeli football team.
Sure, to the people who are heavily invested and informed about football it could be taken as a joke in poor taste (considering it is an apt analogy for how badly Germany would murder Israel's chances at winning.)
But to those who aren't super big soccer fans or sc2superfan's, it sounds really really fucking bad. On top of that, this sounds 10000000000000x worse to the organization/sponsors. There's a bunch of butthurt Kas fans coming in here whining about how he lost out on a chance to earn fame and money.
What they don't realize is how much damage Kas's actions could have done to the organization. If the tournament admins had responded slower or been dumb enough to defend Kas's stupidity, then Fragbite could have gone under in the resultant media frenzy. Esports organizations like Fragbite depend on sponsors to operate. Sponsors don't like being associated with rape in any form whatsoever (it's pretty bad for business y'know). If the sponsors pull out, then that means no more sc2 tourneys (and the current one might not even be able pay out prize money). It could also mean no more CS:GO tourneys, no DOTA, no LOL. Considering the razor thin margins of esports tourneys (esp sc2), Kas's actions posed a giant fucking threat to the jobs of dozens if not hundreds of employees and players.
On November 22 2014 10:50 ne4aJIb wrote: All thrash talk should be banned.
On November 22 2014 11:05 Rickyvalle21 wrote: "Rape" is not a negative conotation in gaming and "nigga" is not a negative connotation in real life at least in alot of societies in the US. Proffessionals, specifically NBA and NFL players use "nigga" all the time. Kas knew he was far better than maddelisk and it was clearly a joke. Its definitely not worth a suspension. It should only be bannable offense if he were to use something more derogatory such as "pussy" or "faggot" in his tweets which is completely unacceptable. "Rape" is not really negative in gaming culture. Fragbite Masters admin were too harsh on this one.
White people don't say nigga. Gamers don't say "I'm gonna rape a girl".
On November 22 2014 11:05 Rickyvalle21 wrote: "Rape" is not a negative conotation in gaming and "nigga" is not a negative connotation in real life at least in alot of societies in the US. Proffessionals, specifically NBA and NFL players use "nigga" all the time. Kas knew he was far better than maddelisk and it was clearly a joke. Its definitely not worth a suspension. It should only be bannable offense if he were to use something more derogatory such as "pussy" or "faggot" in his tweets which is completely unacceptable. "Rape" is not really negative in gaming culture. Fragbite Masters admin were too harsh on this one.
White people don't say nigga. Gamers don't say "I'm gonna rape a girl".
are you being facetious? Both of those statements are demonstrably false
Thinking about it, that gamer slang problem seems to only apply to English. I could be wrong in this, but we really don't use the French word for "rape" to say kinda the same thing in French. At least I don't think I've ever heard it from a French gamer, but it has been a long time since I've played anything online in French and people who I LAN with are too nice to trash talk like that so I wouldn't really know :D We probably have other offensive terms though. Do you people know if other languages use their equivalent of the word "rape" as a substitute to "win in an overwhelming fashion in a game"?
On November 22 2014 11:05 Rickyvalle21 wrote: "Rape" is not a negative conotation in gaming and "nigga" is not a negative connotation in real life at least in alot of societies in the US. Proffessionals, specifically NBA and NFL players use "nigga" all the time. Kas knew he was far better than maddelisk and it was clearly a joke. Its definitely not worth a suspension. It should only be bannable offense if he were to use something more derogatory such as "pussy" or "faggot" in his tweets which is completely unacceptable. "Rape" is not really negative in gaming culture. Fragbite Masters admin were too harsh on this one.
White people don't say nigga. Gamers don't say "I'm gonna rape a girl".
are you being facetious? Both of those statements are demonstrably false
Are you completely disconnected from reality? You know that those statements are written as affirmations but they're actually basically guidelines or suggestions.
He's not saying that white people don't say nigga, he's saying that white people shouldn't much in the same way that gamers shouldn't say "I'm gonna rape a girl". You need to stop taking thing so literally =/
I find it hard to believe how anyone over 13 can find rape "jokes" funny, cool or appropriate, regardless of anyone's gender.
On November 22 2014 11:20 ZenithM wrote: Do you people know if other languages use their equivalent of the word "rape" as a substitute to "win in an overwhelming fashion in a game"?
In Finnish yes, but mostly with "ass" attached to it.
On November 22 2014 11:05 Rickyvalle21 wrote: "Rape" is not a negative conotation in gaming and "nigga" is not a negative connotation in real life at least in alot of societies in the US. Proffessionals, specifically NBA and NFL players use "nigga" all the time. Kas knew he was far better than maddelisk and it was clearly a joke. Its definitely not worth a suspension. It should only be bannable offense if he were to use something more derogatory such as "pussy" or "faggot" in his tweets which is completely unacceptable. "Rape" is not really negative in gaming culture. Fragbite Masters admin were too harsh on this one.
White people don't say nigga. Gamers don't say "I'm gonna rape a girl".
are you being facetious? Both of those statements are demonstrably false
Are you completely disconnected from reality? You know that those statements are written as affirmations but they're actually basically guidelines or suggestions.
He's not saying that white people don't say nigga, he's saying that white people shouldn't much in the same way that gamers shouldn't say "I'm gonna rape a girl". You need to stop taking thing so literally =/
I don't understand the purpose of stating those statements like that, then, since what you just said has been said 100 times over.
On November 22 2014 11:20 ZenithM wrote: Thinking about it, that gamer slang problem seems to only apply to English. I could be wrong in this, but we really don't use the French word for "rape" to say kinda the same thing in French. At least I don't think I've ever heard it from a French gamer, but it has been a long time since I've played anything online in French and people who I LAN with are too nice to trash talk like that so I wouldn't really know :D We probably have other offensive terms though. Do you people know if other languages use their equivalent of the word "rape" as a substitute to "win in an overwhelming fashion in a game"?
Nah I've heard it in french streams too but it's probably less common than in english, that's true.
On November 22 2014 11:05 Rickyvalle21 wrote: "Rape" is not a negative conotation in gaming and "nigga" is not a negative connotation in real life at least in alot of societies in the US. Proffessionals, specifically NBA and NFL players use "nigga" all the time. Kas knew he was far better than maddelisk and it was clearly a joke. Its definitely not worth a suspension. It should only be bannable offense if he were to use something more derogatory such as "pussy" or "faggot" in his tweets which is completely unacceptable. "Rape" is not really negative in gaming culture. Fragbite Masters admin were too harsh on this one.
White people don't say nigga. Gamers don't say "I'm gonna rape a girl".
are you being facetious? Both of those statements are demonstrably false
Are you completely disconnected from reality? You know that those statements are written as affirmations but they're actually basically guidelines or suggestions.
He's not saying that white people don't say nigga, he's saying that white people shouldn't much in the same way that gamers shouldn't say "I'm gonna rape a girl". You need to stop taking thing so literally =/
I don't understand the purpose of stating those statements like that, then, since what you just said has been said 100 times over.
Maybe he didn't read the rest of the thread. I don't really care, either way.
On November 22 2014 11:20 ZenithM wrote: Thinking about it, that gamer slang problem seems to only apply to English. I could be wrong in this, but we really don't use the French word for "rape" to say kinda the same thing in French. At least I don't think I've ever heard it from a French gamer, but it has been a long time since I've played anything online in French and people who I LAN with are too nice to trash talk like that so I wouldn't really know :D We probably have other offensive terms though. Do you people know if other languages use their equivalent of the word "rape" as a substitute to "win in an overwhelming fashion in a game"?
Nah I've heard it in french streams too but it's probably less common than in english, that's true.
On November 22 2014 11:05 Rickyvalle21 wrote: "Rape" is not a negative conotation in gaming and "nigga" is not a negative connotation in real life at least in alot of societies in the US. Proffessionals, specifically NBA and NFL players use "nigga" all the time. Kas knew he was far better than maddelisk and it was clearly a joke. Its definitely not worth a suspension. It should only be bannable offense if he were to use something more derogatory such as "pussy" or "faggot" in his tweets which is completely unacceptable. "Rape" is not really negative in gaming culture. Fragbite Masters admin were too harsh on this one.
White people don't say nigga. Gamers don't say "I'm gonna rape a girl".
are you being facetious? Both of those statements are demonstrably false
Are you completely disconnected from reality? You know that those statements are written as affirmations but they're actually basically guidelines or suggestions.
He's not saying that white people don't say nigga, he's saying that white people shouldn't much in the same way that gamers shouldn't say "I'm gonna rape a girl". You need to stop taking thing so literally =/
I don't understand the purpose of stating those statements like that, then, since what you just said has been said 100 times over.
Maybe he didn't read the rest of the thread. I don't really care, either way.
On November 22 2014 11:20 ZenithM wrote: Thinking about it, that gamer slang problem seems to only apply to English. I could be wrong in this, but we really don't use the French word for "rape" to say kinda the same thing in French. At least I don't think I've ever heard it from a French gamer, but it has been a long time since I've played anything online in French and people who I LAN with are too nice to trash talk like that so I wouldn't really know :D We probably have other offensive terms though. Do you people know if other languages use their equivalent of the word "rape" as a substitute to "win in an overwhelming fashion in a game"?
Nah I've heard it in french streams too but it's probably less common than in english, that's true.
What, "je t'ai violé"? Really? That'd be odd.
No, more like a caster would say "il s'est fait complètement violer" when a player gets 2-0'd. But it's been a while since I have heard it for the last time.
On November 22 2014 11:20 ZenithM wrote: Do you people know if other languages use their equivalent of the word "rape" as a substitute to "win in an overwhelming fashion in a game"?
In Russian it is more used not the direct equivalent of the word "rape", but the equivalent of the word "fuck" (ебать). Basically, there are two main words "ебать" (fuck) and "хуй" (cock), using only these two words you can speak Russian insult anyone anyhow.
On November 22 2014 10:41 RuiBarbO wrote: So is political correctness the best straw man argument or what?
Seems to be unfortunately.100% respect lost for Kas hope he never shows up in public again afaic. I'm not exaggerating, just have some standards for human behavior.
On November 22 2014 10:41 RuiBarbO wrote: So is political correctness the best straw man argument or what?
Seems to be unfortunately.100% respect lost for Kas hope he never shows up in public again afaic. I'm not exaggerating, just have some standards for human behavior.
That's going too far, Kas has apologized, in what seems to a very sincere manner.
On November 22 2014 11:43 Iodem wrote: Man, rape victims and people who are concerned with rape and rape culture are the most overly sensitive people on earth...
On November 22 2014 11:05 Rickyvalle21 wrote: "Rape" is not a negative conotation in gaming and "nigga" is not a negative connotation in real life at least in alot of societies in the US. Proffessionals, specifically NBA and NFL players use "nigga" all the time. Kas knew he was far better than maddelisk and it was clearly a joke. Its definitely not worth a suspension. It should only be bannable offense if he were to use something more derogatory such as "pussy" or "faggot" in his tweets which is completely unacceptable. "Rape" is not really negative in gaming culture. Fragbite Masters admin were too harsh on this one.
White people don't say nigga. Gamers don't say "I'm gonna rape a girl".
are you being facetious? Both of those statements are demonstrably false
Are you completely disconnected from reality? You know that those statements are written as affirmations but they're actually basically guidelines or suggestions.
He's not saying that white people don't say nigga, he's saying that white people shouldn't much in the same way that gamers shouldn't say "I'm gonna rape a girl". You need to stop taking thing so literally =/
I don't understand the purpose of stating those statements like that, then, since what you just said has been said 100 times over.
I'm not sure if English is your first language or w/e but in that context I'm not literally saying "white people don't ever say nigga". I made the post in specific rebuttal to another post.
On November 22 2014 12:00 Roachu wrote: This is a prime example of why Twitter should be purged from the internet.
because people are too stupid to not say things like these in public?
Yeah because Kas would say this in public. Don't pretend like an internet message board is the same as real life.
Hey Roachu, 1990 wants its paradigm back. Twitter is "public".
It's still a glorified message board. Unless you're new to the internet you would know the difference between posting a message on your computer compared to standing in a public square shouting. Give me a fucking break...
On November 22 2014 11:20 ZenithM wrote: Thinking about it, that gamer slang problem seems to only apply to English. I could be wrong in this, but we really don't use the French word for "rape" to say kinda the same thing in French. At least I don't think I've ever heard it from a French gamer, but it has been a long time since I've played anything online in French and people who I LAN with are too nice to trash talk like that so I wouldn't really know :D We probably have other offensive terms though. Do you people know if other languages use their equivalent of the word "rape" as a substitute to "win in an overwhelming fashion in a game"?
It doesn't happens in spanish either, at least in latinamerican casts, actually we're really mild in latinamerica, we barely say any bad words now that I think about it
On November 22 2014 12:00 Roachu wrote: This is a prime example of why Twitter should be purged from the internet.
because people are too stupid to not say things like these in public?
Yeah because Kas would say this in public. Don't pretend like an internet message board is the same as real life.
Welcome to 2014. Please don't think that writing something on social media is any different than saying it in real life. Twitter isn't even anonymous, so this is far from some random internet message board. You're in for a rude awakening when your future boss, company, or sponsor lets you go because of unfiltered social media statements.
People still say rape in the realm of video games, and it's always been stupid. Even more so nowadays when it's become more mainstream. And even worse still if it's your fucking job.
Choose another word for the same intended meaning.
I don't even know where to begin, but man... I really think this thread should be closed. There is just so much over-the-top reactions on both sides it's kind of depressing that I am reading TL.
I honestly cannot even fathom attempting to argue with half of the statements made here @_@ they're just ... way too far gone ...
On November 22 2014 10:41 RuiBarbO wrote: So is political correctness the best straw man argument or what?
Seems to be unfortunately.100% respect lost for Kas hope he never shows up in public again afaic. I'm not exaggerating, just have some standards for human behavior.
That's going too far, Kas has apologized, in what seems to a very sincere manner.
Might be going too far concerning the politics around these matters in gaming world but I'm a pretty extreme person in terms of morals and wish people were more unforgiving towards antissocial and actually threatening behavior.
You guys are forgetting one thing that's of extreme importance, he actually said this to a woman. He actually said this in a way that makes historical and social sense. Men have been raping women historically and when a man threatens a woman of rape it's solely the actualization of a known and widely accepted behavior. When a man threatens another straight man of rape in a competitive videogame it's a niche behavior with altered meaning to a specific culture(nonetheless legitimized by the known rape behavior of mainstream culture and its connotation of domination). Shit's gross.
On November 22 2014 12:00 Roachu wrote: This is a prime example of why Twitter should be purged from the internet.
because people are too stupid to not say things like these in public?
Yeah because Kas would say this in public. Don't pretend like an internet message board is the same as real life.
Welcome to 2014. Please don't think that writing something on social media is any different than saying it in real life. Twitter isn't even anonymous, so this is far from some random internet message board. You're in for a rude awakening when your future boss, company, or sponsor lets you go because of unfiltered social media statements.
its even worse because you reach far more people over twitter than if you shout at a public square.
DarkPlasmaBall's signature says: I suppose mathematicians are polytheists, because they have a whole set of imaginary friends.
As a mathmatician, I am an atheist because the imaginary sets are not my friends.
On November 22 2014 10:41 RuiBarbO wrote: So is political correctness the best straw man argument or what?
Seems to be unfortunately.100% respect lost for Kas hope he never shows up in public again afaic. I'm not exaggerating, just have some standards for human behavior.
That's going too far, Kas has apologized, in what seems to a very sincere manner.
Might be going too far concerning the politics around these matters in gaming world but I'm a pretty extreme person in terms of morals and wish people were more unforgiving towards antissocial and actually threatening behavior.
You guys are forgetting one thing that's of extreme importance, he actually said this to a woman. He actually said this in a way that makes historical and social sense. Men have been raping women historically and when a man threatens a woman of rape it's solely the actualization of a known and widely accepted behavior. When a man threatens another straight man of rape in a competitive videogame it's a niche behavior with altered meaning to a specific culture(nonetheless legitimized by the known rape behavior of mainstream culture and its connotation of domination). Shit's gross.
On November 22 2014 11:20 ZenithM wrote: Thinking about it, that gamer slang problem seems to only apply to English. I could be wrong in this, but we really don't use the French word for "rape" to say kinda the same thing in French. At least I don't think I've ever heard it from a French gamer, but it has been a long time since I've played anything online in French and people who I LAN with are too nice to trash talk like that so I wouldn't really know :D We probably have other offensive terms though. Do you people know if other languages use their equivalent of the word "rape" as a substitute to "win in an overwhelming fashion in a game"?
In Swedish the English word "rape" is just used with a Swedish verb conjugation ("rapa"), instead of the Swedish word for rape "våldta". It's basically pronounced "rape-ah".
It was very commonly used late 90's and early 00's, and seems to see less frequent use nowadays, but it's obviously still around as its English equivalent is. Or maybe I'm just older and don't spend time with immature people who use the word. Though a lot of old school gamers growing up using it still use it, so, yeah...
Kind of ridiculous that people are bringing the double standard argument up here. For women, rape is a serious fear that they have to live with possibly on a daily basis. For men, in the vast majority of cases it isn't. Like, it's not a difficult concept to grasp why it's less acceptable to say it towards a woman. This is like going "Black people can call each other nigga but white people can't?! That's so unfair!"
On November 22 2014 11:05 Rickyvalle21 wrote: "Rape" is not a negative conotation in gaming and "nigga" is not a negative connotation in real life at least in alot of societies in the US. Proffessionals, specifically NBA and NFL players use "nigga" all the time. Kas knew he was far better than maddelisk and it was clearly a joke. Its definitely not worth a suspension. It should only be bannable offense if he were to use something more derogatory such as "pussy" or "faggot" in his tweets which is completely unacceptable. "Rape" is not really negative in gaming culture. Fragbite Masters admin were too harsh on this one.
White people don't say nigga. Gamers don't say "I'm gonna rape a girl".
are you being facetious? Both of those statements are demonstrably false
Are you completely disconnected from reality? You know that those statements are written as affirmations but they're actually basically guidelines or suggestions.
He's not saying that white people don't say nigga, he's saying that white people shouldn't much in the same way that gamers shouldn't say "I'm gonna rape a girl". You need to stop taking thing so literally =/
I don't understand the purpose of stating those statements like that, then, since what you just said has been said 100 times over.
Maybe he didn't read the rest of the thread. I don't really care, either way.
On November 22 2014 11:28 Boucot wrote:
On November 22 2014 11:20 ZenithM wrote: Thinking about it, that gamer slang problem seems to only apply to English. I could be wrong in this, but we really don't use the French word for "rape" to say kinda the same thing in French. At least I don't think I've ever heard it from a French gamer, but it has been a long time since I've played anything online in French and people who I LAN with are too nice to trash talk like that so I wouldn't really know :D We probably have other offensive terms though. Do you people know if other languages use their equivalent of the word "rape" as a substitute to "win in an overwhelming fashion in a game"?
Nah I've heard it in french streams too but it's probably less common than in english, that's true.
What, "je t'ai violé"? Really? That'd be odd.
No, more like a caster would say "il s'est fait complètement violer" when a player gets 2-0'd. But it's been a while since I have heard it for the last time.
Ah I see, I guess it kind of works but it would be offputting at first
the drama is honestly there... but kas apologized and nightend's comment to maddelisk is just unnecessary... i mean cmon we have to admit it is a little bit offensive/vulgar...
On November 22 2014 12:00 Roachu wrote: This is a prime example of why Twitter should be purged from the internet.
because people are too stupid to not say things like these in public?
Yeah because Kas would say this in public. Don't pretend like an internet message board is the same as real life.
Welcome to 2014. Please don't think that writing something on social media is any different than saying it in real life. Twitter isn't even anonymous, so this is far from some random internet message board. You're in for a rude awakening when your future boss, company, or sponsor lets you go because of unfiltered social media statements.
its even worse because you reach far more people over twitter than if you shout at a public square.
Agreed. All your family, friends, fans, and colleagues (not to mention tons of strangers) will often see your social media message much easier and faster than you saying it in person too. And obviously, context and sarcasm and inflection are harder to portray online than in person.
(Vote): Well, trash talk is trash talk - no more, no less - and part of esports (Vote): Tweet was harsh, but absolutely fine in its context from an ethics points of view (Vote): Tweet was inappropriate but shouldn't be as big of a deal as it is (Vote): Tweet was very inappropriate and should be punished as it was (Vote): Tweet was an absolute disgrace for esports and its community there should be even more consequences
Tweet was very inappropriate and should be punished as it was. Kas not a bad guy though...
StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
On November 22 2014 12:00 Roachu wrote: This is a prime example of why Twitter should be purged from the internet.
because people are too stupid to not say things like these in public?
Yeah because Kas would say this in public. Don't pretend like an internet message board is the same as real life.
Welcome to 2014. Please don't think that writing something on social media is any different than saying it in real life. Twitter isn't even anonymous, so this is far from some random internet message board. You're in for a rude awakening when your future boss, company, or sponsor lets you go because of unfiltered social media statements.
its even worse because you reach far more people over twitter than if you shout at a public square.
Agreed. All your family, friends, fans, and colleagues (not to mention tons of strangers) will often see your social media message much easier and faster than you saying it in person too. And obviously, context and sarcasm and inflection are harder to portray online than in person.
and: the internet does not forget. if you google for "kas maddelisk rape" in 5 years, you will find this thread.
On November 22 2014 10:41 RuiBarbO wrote: So is political correctness the best straw man argument or what?
Seems to be unfortunately.100% respect lost for Kas hope he never shows up in public again afaic. I'm not exaggerating, just have some standards for human behavior.
That's going too far, Kas has apologized, in what seems to a very sincere manner.
Might be going too far concerning the politics around these matters in gaming world but I'm a pretty extreme person in terms of morals and wish people were more unforgiving towards antissocial and actually threatening behavior.
You guys are forgetting one thing that's of extreme importance, he actually said this to a woman. He actually said this in a way that makes historical and social sense. Men have been raping women historically and when a man threatens a woman of rape it's solely the actualization of a known and widely accepted behavior. When a man threatens another straight man of rape in a competitive videogame it's a niche behavior with altered meaning to a specific culture(nonetheless legitimized by the known rape behavior of mainstream culture and its connotation of domination). Shit's gross.
Maddelisk is fine with Kas' apology, seriously now you're doing more harm to the dialogue than good with your overzealous behaviour.
On November 22 2014 12:22 Advantageous wrote: *grabs popcorn*
the drama is honestly there... but kas apologized and nightend's comment to maddelisk is just unnecessary... i mean cmon we have to admit it is a little bit offensive/vulgar...
Yeah, nightend's comment is completely out of place. He's not involved afaik but has to butt in and make a vulgar and downright false statement. Maddelisk appears to have given defacto acceptance to Kas' apology.
On November 22 2014 12:10 -Kyo- wrote: I don't even know where to begin, but man... I really think this thread should be closed. There is just so much over-the-top reactions on both sides it's kind of depressing that I am reading TL.
I honestly cannot even fathom attempting to argue with half of the statements made here @_@ they're just ... way too far gone ...
Let's not discredit the entire discussion because of a few zealots.
On November 22 2014 11:05 Rickyvalle21 wrote: "Rape" is not a negative conotation in gaming and "nigga" is not a negative connotation in real life at least in alot of societies in the US. Proffessionals, specifically NBA and NFL players use "nigga" all the time. Kas knew he was far better than maddelisk and it was clearly a joke. Its definitely not worth a suspension. It should only be bannable offense if he were to use something more derogatory such as "pussy" or "faggot" in his tweets which is completely unacceptable. "Rape" is not really negative in gaming culture. Fragbite Masters admin were too harsh on this one.
White people don't say nigga. Gamers don't say "I'm gonna rape a girl".
White people dont say nigga because they don't fit into the culture criteria. Gamers dont say they will rapr a girl in a video gamr because females are the vast majority in gaming. Its different.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
Do you understand reality and fantasy?
The violence you speak of is directed at no real human being. There are no mothers of Space Marines out there whose son's were blown up by Banelings. The rape joke was directed at a real human being, and is a threat as well being sexist and misogynistic.
Let's flip it around.
Pretend Kas was a porn star, starring in porn film regarding S&M and he was going to tie some girls up. But as meets another male performer on the set who lost his son in Iraq to an IED, and he starts making insensitive jokes about his son being blown up and threatens him to use his cell phone to set off a bomb.
Again, the first part is okay (the porn movie), it is fantasy, the second is not, that is reality.
Yeah, the real story is Kas made a really stupid comment and is incredibly insensitive. But I'm not shocked you're defending him, being most human beings are sexist and misogynistic.
For those claiming there is a double standard for men and woman here - the difference is that something like 1 in 3 woman have been sexually harrased. Rape is a very real fear in a womans life, while its a possibility for men to be raped I sincerly doubt any if you walk home at night fearing someone will rape you.
I get that he didnt mean it in a bad way and he clearly isnt a bad guy. He tok responsibility and apologiesed, kudos for that and it is not something I would hold against him in the future. But it was still a incredibly stupid thing to say and when it is said in the context of a tournament the right thing to do is DQ.
The person who looks worst after this nightend. That was stupid, cruel and ignorant all at ones. What a moron.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
On November 22 2014 12:43 ddayzy wrote: For those claiming there is a double standard for men and woman here - the difference is that something like 1 in 3 woman have been sexually harrased. Rape is a very real fear in a womans life, while its a possibility for men to be raped I sincerly doubt any if you walk home at night fearing someone will rape you.
I get that he didnt mean it in a bad way and he clearly isnt a bad guy. He tok responsibility and apologiesed, kudos for that and it is not something I would hold against him in the future. But it was still a incredibly stupid thing to say and when it is said in the context of a tournament the right thing to do is DQ.
I've seen multiple people post the bolded statement in this thread and am curious as to how many of them are actually female recounting their daily experiences and how many are just males who want to seem sensitive.
On November 22 2014 12:44 Dreamer.T wrote: Honestly don't know what might cause a person to say something so stupid, let alone post it on fucking twitter.
I'd argue that there's probably a cultural/language barrier there, too. Most americans in their right minds know the implications of saying something like this.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
On November 22 2014 12:43 ddayzy wrote: For those claiming there is a double standard for men and woman here - the difference is that something like 1 in 3 woman have been sexually harrased. Rape is a very real fear in a womans life, while its a possibility for men to be raped I sincerly doubt any if you walk home at night fearing someone will rape you.
I get that he didnt mean it in a bad way and he clearly isnt a bad guy. He tok responsibility and apologiesed, kudos for that and it is not something I would hold against him in the future. But it was still a incredibly stupid thing to say and when it is said in the context of a tournament the right thing to do is DQ.
I've seen multiple people post the bolded statement in this thread and am curious as to how many of them are actually female recounting their daily experiences and how many are just males who want to seem sensitive.
It is a statistical fact, 90% of rape victims are woman, 1 in 3 woman sats they have been sexually harrased. It also becomes blightedly obvious if you go out at clubs. You see woman having to push away men grabbing at them. My sister had to ealk home alone from a bar, guys yelled sexual stuff after her, she went into a 7/11 where a man in his 50 started to grab her ass and when she went out a guy started to follow her and she had to jump into a cab and lock the doors. That was in Norway. Imagin how fun a rape joke would be after that.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
On November 22 2014 12:43 ddayzy wrote: For those claiming there is a double standard for men and woman here - the difference is that something like 1 in 3 woman have been sexually harrased. Rape is a very real fear in a womans life, while its a possibility for men to be raped I sincerly doubt any if you walk home at night fearing someone will rape you.
I get that he didnt mean it in a bad way and he clearly isnt a bad guy. He tok responsibility and apologiesed, kudos for that and it is not something I would hold against him in the future. But it was still a incredibly stupid thing to say and when it is said in the context of a tournament the right thing to do is DQ.
I've seen multiple people post the bolded statement in this thread and am curious as to how many of them are actually female recounting their daily experiences and how many are just males who want to seem sensitive.
It is a statistical fact, 90% of rape victims are woman, 1 in 3 woman sats they have been sexually harrased. It also becomes blightedly obvious if you go out at clubs. You see woman having to push away men grabbing at them. My sister had to ealk home alone from a bar, guys yelled sexual stuff after her, she went into a 7/11 where a man in his 50 started to grab her ass and when she went out a guy started to follow her and she had to jump into a cab and lock the doors. That was in Norway. Imagin how fun a rape joke would be after that.
Correction: 90% of reported rape victims are women.
On November 22 2014 13:01 BisuDagger wrote: How has this been anything but a good thing?!?
Kas said something inappropriate. Tournament hosts take action. Kas is disqualified from the tournament, but posts that he has learned his lesson. Which means that this mild punishment that won't ruin his career has helped him. Madel also posts a positive response stating everything is fine between them now.
Everything has worked out great! There is really nothing else you can take from this. This is a perfect example of how we can learn from our actions to create a more positive atmosphere in gaming and in real life.
Agreed 100%. There's no drama, no scandal, no controversy to find here.
Kas said something inappropriate. Tournament hosts take action. Kas is disqualified from the tournament, but posts that he has learned his lesson. Which means that this mild punishment that won't ruin his career has helped him. Madel also posts a positive response stating everything is fine between them now.
Everything has worked out great! There is really nothing else you can take from this. This is a perfect example of how we can learn from our actions to create a more positive atmosphere in gaming and in real life.
On November 22 2014 13:01 BisuDagger wrote: How has this been anything but a good thing?!?
Kas said something inappropriate. Tournament hosts take action. Kas is disqualified from the tournament, but posts that he has learned his lesson. Which means that this mild punishment that won't ruin his career has helped him. Madel also posts a positive response stating everything is fine between them now.
Everything has worked out great! There is really nothing else you can take from this. This is a perfect example of how we can learn from our actions to create a more positive atmosphere in gaming and in real life.
With the exception of Nightends comment I would agree, hes the only one I feel comes uot of this looking bad.
Lmao what a joke, social media dictating someone being removed from a tourney? Freedom of speech means nothing to the tournament organizers I guess. If he had said something like "this tournament doesn't provide hot towels and the head admin is a total dick weed" then maybe I could see him being removed. I can't believe people take this so seriously, especially in the e-sports scene.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
maybe i'm just old school, but the term "rape" as far as i know in RTS games (i first heard the term in warcraft 3 a while ago) is meant like "owning" someone. i'm a girl and maybe i'm just thicker skinned because i grew up with guys and played with all guys in war3...but Kas is a mannered guy; i've run into him on ladder a couple times and i can assure you he didn't mean that in the negative light this is being recieved.
HOWEVER, i understand Maddelisk's point as well, and i see what she means by this can make it harder for girls to play in mixed tourneys. So a DQ was probably the right move, especially since this isn't ladder, and on the pro level, i think players should be held to a higher standard...
don't post that stuff on social media folks :\...
anyway hopefully we can get this behind us, this is really an unfortunate stupid mistake that i think we can all move past and forget about. Just hope this teached professionals to ...you know act professional
i still love you kas, you were mannered to me in beta :D
So the problem started and its over already, Kas did something stupid, was punished and sent an apology. Maddelisk accepted the apology and everything is fine now ^^ Good community edit: its not a matter of whether Kas is a nice guy or not, this behaviour is improper (not absolutely terrible, but he was not fined, permanently banned or arrested ^^'), and should be punished as is. We cannot accept hateful or rape comments as something natural just because its common. Making a joke with friends that know well you are not serious is ok, but a puplic statement is an entirely different matter, and social media shouldn't be flooded by those.
On November 22 2014 13:03 BongChambers wrote: Lmao what a joke, social media dictating someone being removed from a tourney? Freedom of speech means nothing to the tournament organizers I guess. If he had said something like "this tournament doesn't provide hot towels and the head admin is a total dick weed" then maybe I could see him being removed. I can't believe people take this so seriously, especially in the e-sports scene.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequenses. You can say what you want but people are equally free to react to what you say. Its silly how its the people who are up in arms the most over free speech are usually the same people who have no clue what it means. His actions got him removed from a tounament. He said something that the organizors didnt think want to be associated with so he got disqualified.
On November 22 2014 13:01 BisuDagger wrote: How has this been anything but a good thing?!?
Kas said something inappropriate. Tournament hosts take action. Kas is disqualified from the tournament, but posts that he has learned his lesson. Which means that this mild punishment that won't ruin his career has helped him. Madel also posts a positive response stating everything is fine between them now.
Everything has worked out great! There is really nothing else you can take from this. This is a perfect example of how we can learn from our actions to create a more positive atmosphere in gaming and in real life.
Very well said. All parties got their lessons and positively reacted.
Maybe that's the Ukraine way of hitting on people. If she doesn't get mad, maybe she's into him. I'm more worried about why was Kas refusing to make units in a WCS game.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
On November 22 2014 13:03 BongChambers wrote: Lmao what a joke, social media dictating someone being removed from a tourney? Freedom of speech means nothing to the tournament organizers I guess. If he had said something like "this tournament doesn't provide hot towels and the head admin is a total dick weed" then maybe I could see him being removed. I can't believe people take this so seriously, especially in the e-sports scene.
"Freedom of speech means nothing to the tournament organizers I guess" "If he'd said this I could see him being removed"
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Of course organizations can pick and choose who they want to deal with, but there's too much of this pussy Politically correct crap these days. Non issues.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
Kas himself realised how stupid it was to say it and is proving himself a real man taking responsibilities for his actions, unlike others.
On November 22 2014 06:47 DinoMight wrote: Can a tournament DQ someone for what they say in their personal time though? I believe the NBA has rules about such things, especially if they reflect poorly on the NBA (look at racist things said by the old Clippers owner, for example).
That's the thing. It's not really "their personal time" because they put it on "social" media, which IMHO kind of negates any expectation of privacy you would expect during your "personal time".
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
On November 22 2014 13:24 MarlieChurphy wrote: Outrage porn.
Feminist bullshit.
Freedom of speech.
Of course organizations can pick and choose who they want to deal with, but there's too much of this pussy Politically correct crap these days. Non issues.
wow i thought the last time anyone had to earnestly post "you dont know what freedom of speech means" anywhere on the internet was like maybe sometime in 2007. this is a real cro-magnon ass thread
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
We must draw the line somewhere. With context we can assume its not a rape threat, but if its allowed suddenly its really hard to punish someone if everyone post something like that before playing a girl. If its allowed people can say things like that with the intention to offend, and they can get away with it saying "its a joke". That has nothing to do with violence in games, but if you really thing its the same, then please show me how SC2 is improper and should be illegal.
On November 22 2014 13:24 MarlieChurphy wrote: Outrage porn.
Feminist bullshit.
Freedom of speech.
Of course organizations can pick and choose who they want to deal with, but there's too much of this pussy Politically correct crap these days. Non issues.
Do you know what 'feminist' means?
Lets not start discussing feminism please. Yes, if we are good people, we will support equality of genders, but just as how many people get annoyed when gay people talk about nothing but gay rights, equally so when there's a woman who talks about nothing but feminism, and often times it's brought to unreasonable levels, and makes people mad. Especially sometimes there is a disconnect between what's fair and not between the two individuals, and some people may feel like feminists are overstepping their boundaries.
TLDR: Lets just say feminism is good in theory, in execution some people get annoyed, and not go into these off tangent debates.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
...he said about SC2, which is primarily played by South Koreans, who have compulsory military service and live next to North Korea, a nation that keeps threatening to unleash its nuclear arsenal against other nations.
Hmm, yeah, feminism is good in theory, but sometimes its bad, like if it pisses off a man cause he's not better than women anymore. Fucking agreed bro... bitches right? Heh heh
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
On November 22 2014 13:35 ranjutan wrote: Hmm, yeah, feminism is good in theory, but sometimes its bad, like if it pisses off a man cause he's not better than women anymore. Fucking agreed bro... bitches right? Heh heh
Yeah exactly, you might be like ugh don't want to hear this, because man was seen superior for a long time, and now you're like, getting your rights equalized (so it's like your are losing yours). Others will get mad because they might feel what is proposed is unfair, because guy pays for stuff more frequently, etc.
I'm just saying, I understand where frustration can come from, and honestly, with certain things in the world, they may be fair in theory, but impulsively they might piss me off a bit. It's then when you go reflect back and think critically to determine whether you have a just reason to get mad. Acting on impulsive on these sensitive issues is not a good idea.
edit: Anyway, I think that a consequence is good. You don't hear people in the real world talking to strangers like this, in my eyes, in the current day and age, bringing more civility into the internet is never a bad thing. Words are words, and everyone can say them, but out of respect of other people, we try to not use some, as if there's a way we can get something across without insulting another group, why not do that instead?
On November 22 2014 13:37 Gen.Rolly wrote: Seriously who cares. Thought police abound in this day and age. How many of us watch movies with thoughts and images far worse.
Except that it was a real person talking about a real person in real life.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway.
7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right?
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
I can't remember the name of this logical fallacy. Anyone?
But the problem isn't about being insensitive, it's about intimidation. So let's try that statement again.
Isn't [naming your tournament after shooting pretend-people] terribly insensitivean act of intimidation to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Keep in mind, that on teamliquid if you posted you were going to go rape/kill someone (when you are attaching rape with the actual act and a person, unlike saying "I raped you at this game", which imo is a bad habit of word choice), you would be banned, or at least warned.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway.
7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right?
Your argument assumes that if games can be violent then its ok to post that tweet. That makes no sense and its a false.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway.
7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right?
Im still mystified by the fact that you think its ok to say to a girl that you are gonna rape her because action games exist. Have you run this theory by you mother? Sister? Girlfriend?
I like how the stupid OMG FREEDOM OF SPEECH people always come out at times like this, and conveniently forget (or more likely, never knew) that freedom of speech is a precept that also assumes consequences for one's actions. you are free to be a dumbass, and others are just as free to 1) no longer associate with you and your idiocy, and 2) critique the words you freely chose to publicly express. to internet oafs, freedom of speech means nothing but the desire to force their cretinism on everyone else without consequences or criticism. it's childish. which should not be surprising, coming from this group.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Yes, I think it's okay that she got hurt. It happens, because people aren't perfect and humor sometimes goes wrong. Usually people move on. Now we have a player DQed for speechcrime.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway.
7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right?
Your argument assumes that if games can be violent then its ok to post that tweet. That makes no sense and its a false.
My argument challenges you to point out why we can make light of any number of terrible things, such as war, assault and shooting people, but not rape. Personally I think rape jokes are just fine, and I doubt I am going to convince you to agree with me, but I'm still trying to understand why you feel so strongly about them.
On November 22 2014 12:19 GolemMadness wrote: Kind of ridiculous that people are bringing the double standard argument up here. For women, rape is a serious fear that they have to live with possibly on a daily basis. For men, in the vast majority of cases it isn't. Like, it's not a difficult concept to grasp why it's less acceptable to say it towards a woman. This is like going "Black people can call each other nigga but white people can't?! That's so unfair!"
On November 22 2014 12:46 GolemMadness wrote: [quote]
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Too bad, I was really looking forward to a real life discussion about your theory that the existens of action games makes it ok to make woman feel bad in real life.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway.
7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right?
Your argument assumes that if games can be violent then its ok to post that tweet. That makes no sense and its a false.
Do you think people would have complained if he tweeted, "going to beat the shit out of this girl #fragbitemasters" ? There is no real difference between the statements.
On November 22 2014 11:43 Iodem wrote: Man, rape victims and people who are concerned with rape and rape culture are the most overly sensitive people on earth...
Fixed that for you.
Sometimes it's good to be sensitive about things.
No, I'm saying that Swedes are typically the most over the top whiners when it comes to so-called "offensive speech' and feminist crap. And what is "rape culture" ?
Kind of pisses me off that Maddelisk could have done the ole "forgive and forget," but instead kind of went off about how terrible it all was. She had the power to snuff the flame, not sure why she didn't.
On November 22 2014 12:49 Darkwhite wrote: [quote]
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Too bad, I was really looking forward to a real life discussion about your theory that the existens of action games makes it ok to make woman feel bad in real life.
It's a very simple theory. Just as much as the rape joke made women feel bad, I think violent games make people who fear violence, have suffered violence or have lost friends and family to violence feel bad. I don't think clamping down on things whenever they make people feel bad is the right solution, in either case.
On November 22 2014 12:46 GolemMadness wrote: [quote]
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Yes, I think it's okay that she got hurt. It happens, because people aren't perfect and humor sometimes goes wrong. Usually people move on. Now we have a player DQed for speechcrime.
What? Its ok that prople get hurt because people are not perfect? Please do explain the logic behind that one.
People get to decide their own limits, you dont get to decide for them. Curious how much bs she had to put up with befor this being in a community with members like you.
What we have is a player admiting and taking responsibility for his actions. Speechcrime? Is that your incredibly overdramatic way of saying he said something stupid and there were consequenses for it?
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Too bad, I was really looking forward to a real life discussion about your theory that the existens of action games makes it ok to make woman feel bad in real life.
It's a very simple theory. Just as much as the rape joke made women feel bad, I think violent games make people who fear violence, have suffered violence or have lost friends and family to violence feel bad. I don't think clamping down on things whenever they make people feel bad is the right solution, in either case.
You dont realize how stupid this sounds at all? "Action games exist so I can tell woman I will rape them". You dont see that the only way your scenario makes sense is if Maddelisk watched a movie where a woman got raped and got offended by it?
Nobody is arguing that you cant make stuff that brings forth different emotions than happiness. Whats being said is that you dont tell woman you will rape them on twitter.
On November 22 2014 12:49 Darkwhite wrote: [quote]
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Yes, I think it's okay that she got hurt. It happens, because people aren't perfect and humor sometimes goes wrong. Usually people move on. Now we have a player DQed for speechcrime.
What? Its ok that prople get hurt because people are not perfect? Please do explain the logic behind that one.
People get to decide their own limits, you dont get to decide for them. Curious how much bs she had to put up with befor this being in a community with members like you.
What we have is a player admiting and taking responsibility for his actions. Speechcrime? Is that your incredibly overdramatic way of saying he said something stupid and there were consequenses for it?
If I bitched and moaned every time someone called me a nigger on the internet or in real life or yelled "jesus christ" as an expletive, I wouldn't ever get anything done.
Stop letting words have power over you, and tell others to do the same. He shouldn't have needed to apologize because she didn't like his words. She should learn to get over words that she may find harsh, like everyone else on this planet has to. I think it's a terrible thing to have words or phrases people(or in some cases, only some people) can't say.
On November 22 2014 13:04 Darkwhite wrote: [quote] You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Too bad, I was really looking forward to a real life discussion about your theory that the existens of action games makes it ok to make woman feel bad in real life.
It's a very simple theory. Just as much as the rape joke made women feel bad, I think violent games make people who fear violence, have suffered violence or have lost friends and family to violence feel bad. I don't think clamping down on things whenever they make people feel bad is the right solution, in either case.
"Action games exist so I can tell woman I will rape them". .
That's not what he's saying at all. He's basically saying "I can tell someone I'm going to kill or beat them as an expression, therefore, telling someone I'm going to rape them as an expression isn't any worse."
On November 22 2014 13:04 Darkwhite wrote: [quote] You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Too bad, I was really looking forward to a real life discussion about your theory that the existens of action games makes it ok to make woman feel bad in real life.
It's a very simple theory. Just as much as the rape joke made women feel bad, I think violent games make people who fear violence, have suffered violence or have lost friends and family to violence feel bad. I don't think clamping down on things whenever they make people feel bad is the right solution, in either case.
You dont realize how stupid this sounds at all? "Action games exist so I can tell woman I will rape them". You dont see that the only way your scenario makes sense is if Maddelisk watched a movie where a woman got raped and got offended by it?
Nobody is arguing that you cant make stuff that brings forth different emotions than happiness. Whats being said is that you dont tell woman you will rape them on twitter.
I will just give up talking to you, as long as you insist on confusing sincere threats with obvious jokes. I'm sorry.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway.
7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right?
Your argument assumes that if games can be violent then its ok to post that tweet. That makes no sense and its a false.
Do you think people would have complained if he tweeted, "going to beat the shit out of this girl #fragbitemasters" ? There is no real difference between the statements.
Personally, I think they would. I think girl and not rape is the magic word.
Knowing how well-mannered Kas is, and what type of person he is, I don't think he meant what it he's written. There's dozens of word in Russian that can be translated as that, but the meaning and/or translation can be nowhere close to it.
The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway.
7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right?
Your argument assumes that if games can be violent then its ok to post that tweet. That makes no sense and its a false.
Do you think people would have complained if he tweeted, "going to beat the shit out of this girl #fragbitemasters" ? There is no real difference between the statements.
Personally, I think they would. I think girl and not rape is the magic word.
Yeah, pretty much, if it was something like "gonna rape Nightend" or "gonna rape some nerds/guys" people would just be like oh ok I guess he's confident in his next match.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Too bad, I was really looking forward to a real life discussion about your theory that the existens of action games makes it ok to make woman feel bad in real life.
It's a very simple theory. Just as much as the rape joke made women feel bad, I think violent games make people who fear violence, have suffered violence or have lost friends and family to violence feel bad. I don't think clamping down on things whenever they make people feel bad is the right solution, in either case.
You dont realize how stupid this sounds at all? "Action games exist so I can tell woman I will rape them". You dont see that the only way your scenario makes sense is if Maddelisk watched a movie where a woman got raped and got offended by it?
Nobody is arguing that you cant make stuff that brings forth different emotions than happiness. Whats being said is that you dont tell woman you will rape them on twitter.
I will just give up talking to you, as long as you insist on confusing sincere threats with obvious jokes. I'm sorry.
I am giving you the sentence in the same context you got it on twitter, I have not ones said it was a threat, in fact I said the oposit. Why do you think im using it as a threat?
At least have balls to admit you could not make a coherent argument so you pussied out.
I hope you are young and this is nothing more then a lack of experience and maturity, because if there is a grown man out there who thinks its ok to write To a woman that you will rape her because action games exist Im gonna lose all faith in humanity.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
On November 22 2014 12:46 GolemMadness wrote: [quote]
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Yes, I think it's okay that she got hurt. It happens, because people aren't perfect and humor sometimes goes wrong. Usually people move on. Now we have a player DQed for speechcrime.
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway.
7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right?
Your argument assumes that if games can be violent then its ok to post that tweet. That makes no sense and its a false.
My argument challenges you to point out why we can make light of any number of terrible things, such as war, assault and shooting people, but not rape. Personally I think rape jokes are just fine, and I doubt I am going to convince you to agree with me, but I'm still trying to understand why you feel so strongly about them.
Im not personally offended by rape jokes, since i was never raped and im not a part of a group that has all right to be sensitive about the matter, since rape is a real problem. And i don't make light of things like war, assault or shooting people, but i accept fiction as a way to discuss those matters or simply to entertain. Kas was indeed making a joke, but he must be punished for the sake of consistency, since ill intentioned actions/comments can be made in the future.
edit: @Iodem, in other words personal attacks directed towards a group or individual are not acceptable, since its bad sportsmanship. Again, with context we can assume Kas was making a joke (he admitted the mistake and wrote an apology, cannot really feel offended after that). But other people can write the exactly same thing with intention to harass or even actually harm someone. If tweets like the one Kas made are ignored, later we cannot have double standards. When it comes to tournaments rules and standards we cannot just rely on interpretation, some consistency is required.
People going off on crazy tangents here... Whether it's the choice of the word "rape" here or the fact that Maddelisk is a girl doesn't really matter to me.. I just find I'm quite able to sympathize with her here and see how this comes across as particularly offensive.
He's not only putting her down here based on gender but also throwing in the rape bit which is obviously a more sensitive topic for women. Of course it's common slang in video games.. but hey! maybe that's largely accepted because video games are dominated by men. This should be obvious...
I think Kas realizes that now and that he totally did fuck up, and I'm sure he never really meant anything so extremely negative in the first place.. I almost wonder if language barrier is really at the source of this but whatever, I don't think Kas was trying to be that huge a dick and it sorta seems fine now.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
As long as guys keeps sexually harrassing woman, as long as 1 in 3 woman gets sexually harrassed there will be a difference in saying it about a man and a woman. I have never ever been afraid I would get raped, for the woman I know its a different story. You seem completly unable to have any empathy for others or see it from their point of view.
On November 22 2014 11:43 Iodem wrote: Man, rape victims and people who are concerned with rape and rape culture are the most overly sensitive people on earth...
Fixed that for you.
Sometimes it's good to be sensitive about things.
No, I'm saying that Swedes are typically the most over the top whiners when it comes to so-called "offensive speech' and feminist crap. And what is "rape culture" ?
Rape culture:
"Rape culture is a concept that examines a culture in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2]
Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of certain forms of sexual violence that do not conform to certain stereotypes of stranger or violent rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison rape and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.[3][4][5][6][7]
Although the concept of rape culture is used in feminist academia,[8] there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and to what degree a given society meets the criteria to be considered a rape culture.[3]
Rape culture has been observed to correlate with other social factors and behaviors. Research identifies correlation between rape myths, victim blaming and trivialization of rape with increased incidence of racism, homophobia, ageism, classism, religious intolerance, and other forms of discrimination.[9][10]"
Also, you're in the United States like I am, so you should be well aware of what constitutes offensive speech, as well the fact that not everything feminism/ fairness related is "crap".
Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
Man, I hate our society. Like a tweet that is made as a joke should not effect any tournament standing whatsoever.I am aware of what the company that supports the tournaments is thinking. However, all you need is a disclaimer that explains that the tweets of the players are not your ideas and/or values. Even when it comes to jokes. I am sick of our victim mentality in today's society. Our society is a weak one and I honestly believe that due to this will spawn corruption and hatred. I despise political correctness and it only masks what the real problem in our society is. The only reason he was disqualified was due to the overall image that they are trying to project to sell their products. It is a media driven, attention whore society that doesn't want facts but rather fame, power, and money. Is it wrong to joke about rape in a satire way? No, it is a joke. Will some people be offended by said joke? Probably. But that doesn't give you the right to deny someone the right to compete due to something they said as a joke. I believe actions speak louder than words ever will. And the action of raping someone is the true atrocity. Not some joke on the internet. But people will try to make a joke seem more serious than rape itself. That is the true joke in our society today.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
There are people in this world who deal with threats of violence in their everyday lives too, so what? They don't tell people their feelings got hurt because you made a joke about killing someone, or that by making the joke you are "enabling" killers and people who commit assault. And I think it's ridiculous that you actually believe that there is a culture of acceptance towards rape.
in case anyone wants to know why people think women are more often raped then men; before people blindly memorize reports and statistics, one should investigate fully before making an emotion decision
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
There is a massive difference between those lines. MMA raped MoMan is in the past, and since MMA clearly did not actually rape MoMan the context is clear.
However, if you say you are going to rape some girl, you are intentionally using words in an equivocal manner. He intentionally used "some girl", which he wouldn't if it wasn't about making it ambiguous. I don't think Kas wanted to cause drama or majorly offend anyone, but he did and now he has to live with the consequences.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
I laughed out loud at this part of your post. Do you know women in real life who've told you they live in constant fear of being raped or assaulted? Where on earth is this?
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
I laughed out loud at this part of your post. Do you know women in real life who've told you they live in constant fear of being raped or assaulted? Where on earth is this?
In any bigger town on Earth. Go tell me about those girls that are comfortable walking all alone at night.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
I laughed out loud at this part of your post. Do you know women in real life who've told you they live in constant fear of being raped or assaulted? Where on earth is this?
your post makes me very sad because i believe that you genuinely feel this way. please, i'm begging you, look up some real statistics on sexual assault and the reporting/prosecution of sexual assault. yes, women live in this fear every day. it's almost certain that you know a woman who has been assaulted whether you're aware of it or not. i don't even want to argue with you because you're just completely in the dark about the reality of the situation. please educate yourself for the sake of any woman you will ever know or care about.
On November 22 2014 12:49 Darkwhite wrote: [quote]
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat.
No one says rape is good, and yet it keeps happening.
Kas may not have raped anyone, but his words still draw on a culture that involves intimidating women to make them passive and submissive. And they do so on very loud, clear terms. What he intended to say doesn't change what he actually wound up communicating.
You mean like how shooting games draw on a culture which glorifies violence and murder? Why is it okay to name your tournament after shooting pretend-people for points? Isn't it terribly insensitive to all those who have lost family and friends to gun violence?
Are you actually so ignorant that you cant tell the difference between games and real life?
I can tell the difference between games and real life. I can even tell the difference between jokes and threats.
PS: Fragbite Masters is the real name of a real tournament.
At least you prove the ignorant part. Saying something is a joke does not give you a lissence to say all the stupid shit you want.
Your logic was that if its ok to shoot people in games its ok to tell a girl you are gonna rape here in real life, which is a unbelivable stupid thing to say.
If you are going to completely ignore the difference between an obvious joke and a credible threat, this isn't going to get anywhere. I'm not okay with threatening people with any sort of violence.
If it hurts the person its directed at whats the difference? Sexual harrasment is a part of life for most woman, that comment obviously hurt Maddelisk and yet you think its ok?
Ill ask again and you can pm me the answear if you dont want to write it publicly. Are you from Oslo? You see we are both norwegian, i live in Oslo and I know a lot of the SC2 people here and Im curious if you ate one of them. If you are I want to talk.
I'm not terribly interested in discussing my personal life, but I never transitioned from SC:BW to StarCraft 2, so I'm not on of them.
Yes, I think it's okay that she got hurt. It happens, because people aren't perfect and humor sometimes goes wrong. Usually people move on. Now we have a player DQed for speechcrime.
On November 22 2014 13:44 Superbanana wrote:
On November 22 2014 13:40 Darkwhite wrote:
On November 22 2014 13:27 GolemMadness wrote:
On November 22 2014 13:22 Darkwhite wrote:
On November 22 2014 13:20 GolemMadness wrote:
On November 22 2014 12:49 Darkwhite wrote:
On November 22 2014 12:46 GolemMadness wrote:
On November 22 2014 12:31 Darkwhite wrote: StarCraft is a game about having fun with simulated war. Marines, which dive in droves in essentially any game involving Terran, are culturally challenged individuals who had undergone neural resocialization via brain surgery, implants such as aggression inhibitors, and resocialization tanks. Counseling and drug therapy were also used to help overcome criminal and/or anti-social tendencies.
Incidentally, one of the key strategies in StarCraft is to bypass your opponents army and wipe out their noncombatant workers.
The tournament in question, Fragbite Masters, takes its name from video game slang for killing people in shooting games, which scores you points.
All of this is perfectly good and harmless fun. But an obvious, admittedly unfunny rape joke? Offensive and inexcusable.
...You're comparing video game violence to saying you're going to rape a woman. That's like saying "Well boxers punch each other all the time in fights, but I go up to one on the street and punch him in the face and suddenly it's a big deal?"
I'm comparing rape-as-humor with violence-as-entertainment. Kas did not rape anybody. I doubt anybody could possibly read his tweet as a sincere rape threat. Edit: Unless they have zero context.
Of course it's not an actual rape threat. The point is that rape is a serious issue and not something that should be made light of in such a way. Just like you wouldn't say "I'm going to whip this black guy."
And now we have come full circle. If rape is too serious of an issue to joke with, then isn't war too serious to make frivolous games about?
Pretty sure the average gamer doesn't have to worry every day about suddenly being in a war, unless they actively chose to join the army or whatever.
You have never heard of compulsory military service? South Korea has it, oh, and also Norway.
7.000 soldiers have died serving the US since 2000. Plus another 50.000 injured. Those people had families - spouses, parents, sometimes children. But it's less people than are raped, so it's okay to make light of war anyway, unless another large scale war comes around, then we'll have to stop playing war games, that's how it works, right?
Your argument assumes that if games can be violent then its ok to post that tweet. That makes no sense and its a false.
My argument challenges you to point out why we can make light of any number of terrible things, such as war, assault and shooting people, but not rape. Personally I think rape jokes are just fine, and I doubt I am going to convince you to agree with me, but I'm still trying to understand why you feel so strongly about them.
Im not personally offended by rape jokes, since i was never raped and im not a part of a group that has all right to be sensitive about the matter, since rape is a real problem. And i don't make light of things like war, assault or shooting people, but i accept fiction as a way to discuss those matters or simply to entertain. Kas was indeed making a joke, but he must be punished for the sake of consistency, since ill intentioned actions/comments can be made in the future.
edit: @Iodem, in other words personal attacks directed towards a group or individual are not acceptable, since its bad sportsmanship. Again, with context we can assume Kas was making a joke. But other people can write the exactly same thing with intention to harass or even actually harm someone. If tweets like the one Kas made are ignored, later we cannot have double standards. When it comes to tournaments rules and standards we cannot just rely on interpretation, some consistency is required.
You want people punished, not for their own actions and their direct consequences, but to make an example of them? He doesn't deserve to be punished, but it's okay, because consistency? If you want the hyperbolic version, that's a mockery of justice.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
I laughed out loud at this part of your post. Do you know women in real life who've told you they live in constant fear of being raped or assaulted? Where on earth is this?
Everywhere on Earth? Do you live in a bubble? Nearly every woman I know has encountered some level of sexism, ranging from objectification and cat calls to actual rape, and regardless of where they fall on the spectrum, none of them feel particularly safe walking around alone at night (even in the suburbs, and even with mace).
EDIT: It's not a matter of you living in a bubble; it's a matter of you being male and apparently not talking to women. My mistake.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
The ignorance of some people...
If the person he said it to was living with a constant credible threat of being killed I assume he would have been yes.
Woman live with the fear of rape. Most of the girls I know have had at least one uncomfortable, to use a mild word, sexual situation where a guy wouldent take no for a answear.
That would make you sensitive to someone saying they will rape you, even if you know hes not being serious, and rightly so.
On November 22 2014 14:44 Iodem wrote: And I think it's ridiculous that you actually believe that there is a culture of acceptance towards rape.
????????? you live in the united states? have you ever followed any high profile case of sexual assault by a celebrity, especially professional or college sports players? have you ever read the comments of any news story about a woman being raped while drunk, at a party, etc.? how can you type the words you just typed and believe them?
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
I laughed out loud at this part of your post. Do you know women in real life who've told you they live in constant fear of being raped or assaulted? Where on earth is this?
Norway would be one place. Constant no, but going out to clubs, walking home alone after dark yes. 1 in 3 woman gets sexually harrassed so most places on earth actually.
On November 22 2014 14:44 Iodem wrote: And I think it's ridiculous that you actually believe that there is a culture of acceptance towards rape.
????????? you live in the united states? have you ever followed any high profile case of sexual assault by a celebrity, especially professional or college sports players? have you ever read the comments of any news story about a woman being raped while drunk, at a party, etc.? how can you type the words you just typed and believe them?
Man, my head hurts from reading what Iodem has been writing. It's a blissful ignorance, to not recognize the existence of rape culture. I don't understand how a fellow American isn't aware of such a huge national problem.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
I laughed out loud at this part of your post. Do you know women in real life who've told you they live in constant fear of being raped or assaulted? Where on earth is this?
Everywhere on Earth? Do you live in a bubble? Nearly every woman I know has encountered some level of sexism, ranging from objectification and cat calls to actual rape, and regardless of where they fall on the spectrum, none of them feel particularly safe walking around alone at night (even in the suburbs, and even with mace).
EDIT: It's not a matter of you living in a bubble; it's a matter of you being male and apparently not talking to women. My mistake.
my wife was sexually harassed and intimidated at her job for months on a shift where she was forced to work alone with the man who was harassing her. she signed a document from her workplace indicating that if the harasser was ever accused again he would be immediately fired. instead, my wife was transferred to another location and the man who harassed her went on to harass 5+ other women at the same workplace, then quit his job without being fired. this is canada, not pakistan.
i don't even want to be angry at the people who don't understand how serious the problem is, i'm not interested in talking down to anyone or telling them i'm morally better than them. i just want them to open their eyes for the sake of the women we all know and care about.
On November 22 2014 14:44 Iodem wrote: And I think it's ridiculous that you actually believe that there is a culture of acceptance towards rape.
????????? you live in the united states? have you ever followed any high profile case of sexual assault by a celebrity, especially professional or college sports players? have you ever read the comments of any news story about a woman being raped while drunk, at a party, etc.? how can you type the words you just typed and believe them?
Terrible rich people can get out of a lot of trouble by the sheer power of their money. There are celebrities who have gotten away with killing people (like Matthew Broderick) as well. I don't read comments on news stories because they're seldom intelligent. People make stupid decisions and reap what they sow.
You're going to have to further explain how people are 'accepting' of rape.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
I laughed out loud at this part of your post. Do you know women in real life who've told you they live in constant fear of being raped or assaulted? Where on earth is this?
Everywhere on Earth? Do you live in a bubble? Nearly every woman I know has encountered some level of sexism, ranging from objectification and cat calls to actual rape, and regardless of where they fall on the spectrum, none of them feel particularly safe walking around alone at night (even in the suburbs, and even with mace).
EDIT: It's not a matter of you living in a bubble; it's a matter of you being male and apparently not talking to women. My mistake.
my wife was sexually harassed and intimidated at her job for months on a shift where she was forced to work alone with the man who was harassing her. she signed a document from her workplace indicating that if the harasser was ever accused again he would be immediately fired. instead, my wife was transferred to another location and the man who harassed her went on to harass 5+ other women at the same workplace, then quit his job without being fired. this is canada, not pakistan.
i don't even want to be angry at the people who don't understand how serious the problem is, i'm not interested in talking down to anyone or telling them i'm morally better than them. i just want them to open their eyes for the sake of the women we all know and care about.
On November 22 2014 14:26 Ansinjunger wrote: The dq is harsh, but it sends a strong message that rape is not a joke. I admittedly laughed when the caster at HSC said "MMA raped MoMan," but joking about raping women is completely off limits. It's not really a double standard. Men and women are different. You can give a guy a friendly punch in the chest.
That's pretty much the definition of a double standard.
Double standards aren't necessarily bad - animals and people have different rights, there are different rules for adults and children. Double standards are, however, the opposite of equality.
if you don't HAVE equality then you can't ACHIEVE equality by treating people equally. pretty simple and basic logic. rape is not a problem that affects men the way it affects women. sexual intimidation does not affect men the way it affects women. men do not know what it's like (except through empathy and understanding) to be a woman and literally live in constant fear of sexual intimidation, harassment, abuse, rape, etc. it's not a matter of "boo hoo, you used a word i don't like;" it's a matter of the fact that women are faced with legitimate threats of rape in their everyday lives and by turning that into a joke you are sending a message to rapists, abusers and harassers that you think what they do is a joke and you won't do anything to change the culture of acceptance that enables them
if you don't think attitudes about language are this important and directly tied to the real issues of rape and abuse in the real world then you're just myopic and uninformed
I laughed out loud at this part of your post. Do you know women in real life who've told you they live in constant fear of being raped or assaulted? Where on earth is this?
your post makes me very sad because i believe that you genuinely feel this way. please, i'm begging you, look up some real statistics on sexual assault and the reporting/prosecution of sexual assault. yes, women live in this fear every day. it's almost certain that you know a woman who has been assaulted whether you're aware of it or not. i don't even want to argue with you because you're just completely in the dark about the reality of the situation. please educate yourself for the sake of any woman you will ever know or care about.
I do know women who have been assaulted. I know women who are afraid to go out at night.
I also know women who are not afraid of going outside alone at night. Your post implies that every single woman lives in fear. I do not agree based on personal experience
On November 22 2014 14:44 Iodem wrote: And I think it's ridiculous that you actually believe that there is a culture of acceptance towards rape.
????????? you live in the united states? have you ever followed any high profile case of sexual assault by a celebrity, especially professional or college sports players? have you ever read the comments of any news story about a woman being raped while drunk, at a party, etc.? how can you type the words you just typed and believe them?
Terrible rich people can get out of a lot of trouble by the sheer power of their money. There are celebrities who have gotten away with killing people (like Matthew Broderick) as well. I don't read comments on news stories because they're seldom intelligent. People make stupid decisions and reap what they sow.
You're going to have to further explain how people are 'accepting' of rape.
We've already explained it several times, and I've already linked to you the Wiki entry on rape culture in a previous post.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate. My apologies, 8000 and 16000 was the numbers. That would be 160 000 rapes in ten years with a population of 6000 000.
On November 22 2014 11:43 Iodem wrote: Man, rape victims and people who are concerned with rape and rape culture are the most overly sensitive people on earth...
Fixed that for you.
Sometimes it's good to be sensitive about things.
No, I'm saying that Swedes are typically the most over the top whiners when it comes to so-called "offensive speech' and feminist crap. And what is "rape culture" ?
Rape culture:
"Rape culture is a concept that examines a culture in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2]
Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of certain forms of sexual violence that do not conform to certain stereotypes of stranger or violent rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison rape and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.[3][4][5][6][7]
Although the concept of rape culture is used in feminist academia,[8] there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and to what degree a given society meets the criteria to be considered a rape culture.[3]
Rape culture has been observed to correlate with other social factors and behaviors. Research identifies correlation between rape myths, victim blaming and trivialization of rape with increased incidence of racism, homophobia, ageism, classism, religious intolerance, and other forms of discrimination.[9][10]"
Also, you're in the United States like I am, so you should be well aware of what constitutes offensive speech, as well the fact that not everything feminism/ fairness related is "crap".
"Victim blaming" for telling people to take the same precautions that you would to not get mugged? It's everyone's responsibility to not commit crime, but it's also your responsibility to take precautions and avoid it. "Sexual objectification" when there are women who will throw themselves at men for sex, as well as dress as provocatively as they can to get attention? Trivializing rape? How do you do that? Denial of widespread rape? False accusations of rape exist- not every alleged rape occurs.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
People are allowed to tell others they will kill them in the same context so I'd agree
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
Yeah, who cares about the third world or pseudo first world countries right? If someone is offended there nobody cares o_O #sarcasm
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
Yeah, who cares about the third world or pseudo first world countries right? If someone is offended there nobody cares o_O #sarcasm
I don't care if people are offended in any country.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
Yeah, who cares about the third world or pseudo first world countries right? If someone is offended there nobody cares o_O #sarcasm
Better not ever make a joke about starvation, disease, lack of healthcare, or violence as well then.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
Yeah, who cares about the third world or pseudo first world countries right? If someone is offended there nobody cares o_O #sarcasm
Yeah, we also can't make jokes about water or medicine, because people in third world countries will get offended because they die from the lack of that all the time.
If you extend this line of thinking, you can't actually joke about anything because somebody somewhere is bound to get offended.
People just get offended way too easily now a day.
I wonder if I said "I'm about to go smoke a fag at dreamhack" if they would DQ me. Because we all know fag = cigarette, right? Or is a queer? Who knows!
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
It's a matter of simple logical consistency,
If you told someone who had to live daily with the fear of being killed that you would kill them, and if the person saying he would kill you belonged to the group who had a history of killing people like you I would have reacted just as strongly.
Also you do realize nobody have commited a crime? The argument is simply, do you think its ok to tell woman ypu will rape them? If i went over to your girlfriend and told her i would rape her you would tell her its no big deal because being killed is worse then being raped?
On November 22 2014 11:43 Iodem wrote: Man, rape victims and people who are concerned with rape and rape culture are the most overly sensitive people on earth...
Fixed that for you.
Sometimes it's good to be sensitive about things.
No, I'm saying that Swedes are typically the most over the top whiners when it comes to so-called "offensive speech' and feminist crap. And what is "rape culture" ?
Rape culture:
"Rape culture is a concept that examines a culture in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2]
Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of certain forms of sexual violence that do not conform to certain stereotypes of stranger or violent rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison rape and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.[3][4][5][6][7]
Although the concept of rape culture is used in feminist academia,[8] there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and to what degree a given society meets the criteria to be considered a rape culture.[3]
Rape culture has been observed to correlate with other social factors and behaviors. Research identifies correlation between rape myths, victim blaming and trivialization of rape with increased incidence of racism, homophobia, ageism, classism, religious intolerance, and other forms of discrimination.[9][10]"
Also, you're in the United States like I am, so you should be well aware of what constitutes offensive speech, as well the fact that not everything feminism/ fairness related is "crap".
"Victim blaming" for telling people to take the same precautions that you would to not get mugged? It's everyone's responsibility to not commit crime, but it's also your responsibility to take precautions and avoid it. "Sexual objectification" when there are women who will throw themselves at men for sex, as well as dress as provocatively as they can to get attention? Trivializing rape? How do you do that? Denial of widespread rape? False accusations of rape exist- not every alleged rape occurs.
"it's also your responsibility to take precautions and avoid it" Except you're born a woman, so you're not even addressing the problem. A vagina isn't supposed to equate to a "rape me" sign on your back. Women can dress conservatively (not that they should *need* to if they don't feel like it), but they still get attacked *simply because they're women*.
"when there are women who will throw themselves at men for sex, as well as dress as provocatively as they can to get attention" This absolutely does not describe all women, and yet even the most conservative and professionally dressed and mannered women are objectified, not just whores or 18 year old chicks in bikinis.
"Trivializing rape? How do you do that?" By doing exactly what you did: victim blaming and making excuses for unwarranted sexual objectification.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
It's a matter of simple logical consistency,
If you told someone who had to live daily with the fear of being killed that you would kill them, and if the person saying he would kill you belonged to the group who had a history of killing people like you I would have reacted just as strongly.
Also you do realize nobody have commited a crime? The argument is simply, do you think its ok to tell woman ypu will rape them? If i went over to your girlfriend and told her i would rape her you would tell her its no big deal because being killed is worse then being raped?
No it wouldn't be fine. But it would be much worse if you went up to her and told her you were going to kill her.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
People are allowed to tell others they will kill them in the same context so I'd agree
People are also allowed to say they will rape you. The question is if you think its ok to tell woman you will rape them? Just answear yes so I can write you of as a ignorant individual and ignore you.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
Yeah, who cares about the third world or pseudo first world countries right? If someone is offended there nobody cares o_O #sarcasm
Yeah, we also can't make jokes about water or medicine, because people in third world countries will get offended because they die from the lack of that all the time.
If you extend this line of thinking, you can't actually joke about anything because somebody somewhere is bound to get offended.
You are using a snowball fallacy here, lets continue. We cannot discuss anything since somebody might disagree and might be offended. We should stop talking, since anything we say can directly or indirectly reflect some opinion, that someone is bound to disagree with. Thats not how it works. Its simple, discuss if its ok or not for Kas to tweet that, do not use a fictional example and claim its the same thing. "Going to kill an opponent soon" is obviously talking about defeating in game, but that rape joke can easily be interpreted as a form of harass. Tweet " going to kill some guy" to your neighbor and see what happens.
On November 22 2014 15:22 SidianTheBard wrote: People just get offended way too easily now a day.
I wonder if I said "I'm about to go smoke a fag at dreamhack" if they would DQ me. Because we all know fag = cigarette, right? Or is a queer? Who knows!
I wish someone would actually translate Maddelisk's response instead of using google. It's unintelligible in key points.
Kas' post sounded bad to me at first, because I didn't know there was a tournament coming up (even with his hashtag making it logical that there was). I don't follow the SC2 scene much anymore, but I did for a few years. That would make me more likely than most to be accepting of his statement. Yet, I wasn't at all. That makes it obvious that the tournament organizers would not want to have the tweet associated with their tournament.
b]Frag[/b]bite Masters (of slaves?) isn't the most appealing name to be connected with a company, however. And this is a "violent", bloody game. Why draw the harsh line at the point of an okay joke (given the right context)? Humor always offends people, and no publicity is bad publicity. I can see why Fragbite Masters would be annoyed, and even why they would disqualify Kas. What I don't understand is how they would be dumb enough to do so. I don't get why people make news stories of presidential candidates doing idiotic things in their childhood, or even of doing anything more than thirty years ago. Who are you trying to impress by blowing up trivial things? It's not working...
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
Yeah, who cares about the third world or pseudo first world countries right? If someone is offended there nobody cares o_O #sarcasm
Yeah, we also can't make jokes about water or medicine, because people in third world countries will get offended because they die from the lack of that all the time.
If you extend this line of thinking, you can't actually joke about anything because somebody somewhere is bound to get offended.
You are using a snowball fallacy here, lets continue. We cannot discuss anything since somebody might disagree and might be offended. We should stop talking, since anything we say can directly or indirectly reflect some opinion, that someone is bound to disagree with. Thats not how it works. Its simple, discuss if its ok or not for Kas to tweet that, do not use a fictional example and claim its the same thing.
But where do you draw the cutoff point? What number of people getting offended? Come up with a system to measure the magnitude of offensiveness? Wouldn't any cutoff point be arbitrary?
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
It's a matter of simple logical consistency,
If you told someone who had to live daily with the fear of being killed that you would kill them, and if the person saying he would kill you belonged to the group who had a history of killing people like you I would have reacted just as strongly.
Also you do realize nobody have commited a crime? The argument is simply, do you think its ok to tell woman ypu will rape them? If i went over to your girlfriend and told her i would rape her you would tell her its no big deal because being killed is worse then being raped?
No it wouldn't be fine. But it would be much worse if you went up to her and told her you were going to kill her.
Still don't get the point?
Yes i do, you are agreeing that you should not tell woman you will rape them. Case closed.
Now if you want to campaign for banning people for saying they will kill a oponent who is fearing for his life go ahead. I dont think you will meet much tesistance.
On November 22 2014 15:22 SidianTheBard wrote: People just get offended way too easily now a day.
I wonder if I said "I'm about to go smoke a fag at dreamhack" if they would DQ me. Because we all know fag = cigarette, right? Or is a queer? Who knows!
People just make strawman arguments way too easily now a day.
I wonder if I said "I'm about to make a false analogy relating raping a woman to smoking a cigarette" if they would DQ me. Because we all know that raping = smoking, right? Or can you smoke a gay guy? Who knows!
I am officially done with this thread. Glad the tournament ruled the way they did, glad Kas realized he was in the wrong, and I'm glad Kas and Maddelisk patched things up.
On November 22 2014 15:28 Komentaja wrote: I wish someone would actually translate Maddelisk's response instead of using google. It's unintelligible in key points.
Kas' post sounded bad to me at first, because I didn't know there was a tournament coming up (even with his hashtag making it logical that there was). I don't follow the SC2 scene much anymore, but I did for a few years. That would make me more likely than most to be accepting of his statement. Yet, I wasn't at all. That makes it obvious that the tournament organizers would not want to have the tweet associated with their tournament.
Fragbite Masters (of slaves?) isn't the most appealing name to be connected with a company, however. And this is a "violent", bloody game. Why draw the harsh line at the point of an okay joke (given the right context)? Humor always offends people, and no publicity is bad publicity. I can see why Fragbite Masters would be annoyed, and even why they would disqualify Kas. What I don't understand is how they would be dumb enough to do so. I don't get why people make news stories of presidential candidates doing idiotic things in their childhood, or even of doing anything more than thirty years ago. Who are you trying to impress by blowing up trivial things? It's not working...
Maddelisk and several femals in and outside the scene got hurt by that sentence. Thats trivial?
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
It's a matter of simple logical consistency,
If you told someone who had to live daily with the fear of being killed that you would kill them, and if the person saying he would kill you belonged to the group who had a history of killing people like you I would have reacted just as strongly.
Also you do realize nobody have commited a crime? The argument is simply, do you think its ok to tell woman ypu will rape them? If i went over to your girlfriend and told her i would rape her you would tell her its no big deal because being killed is worse then being raped?
No it wouldn't be fine. But it would be much worse if you went up to her and told her you were going to kill her.
Still don't get the point?
Yes i do, you are agreeing that you should not tell woman you will rape them. Case closed.
Now if you want to campaign for banning people for saying they will kill a oponent who is fearing for his life go ahead. I dont think you will meet much tesistance.
Case is not closed yet. Players are banned for talking about rape, but not banned for talking about killing an opponent.
Since Kill > rape, either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway each year. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled".
On November 22 2014 15:28 Komentaja wrote: I wish someone would actually translate Maddelisk's response instead of using google. It's unintelligible in key points.
Kas' post sounded bad to me at first, because I didn't know there was a tournament coming up (even with his hashtag making it logical that there was). I don't follow the SC2 scene much anymore, but I did for a few years. That would make me more likely than most to be accepting of his statement. Yet, I wasn't at all. That makes it obvious that the tournament organizers would not want to have the tweet associated with their tournament.
Fragbite Masters (of slaves?) isn't the most appealing name to be connected with a company, however. And this is a "violent", bloody game. Why draw the harsh line at the point of an okay joke (given the right context)? Humor always offends people, and no publicity is bad publicity. I can see why Fragbite Masters would be annoyed, and even why they would disqualify Kas. What I don't understand is how they would be dumb enough to do so. I don't get why people make news stories of presidential candidates doing idiotic things in their childhood, or even of doing anything more than thirty years ago. Who are you trying to impress by blowing up trivial things? It's not working...
Maddelisk and several femals in and outside the scene got hurt by that sentence. Thats trivial?
There is no source in this thread saying that is the case.
Edit: and even if it was the case that they got "hurt", then [b]yes, I believe it's trivial. It sounds like a manufactured wound in that case.
On November 22 2014 15:22 SidianTheBard wrote: People just get offended way too easily now a day.
I wonder if I said "I'm about to go smoke a fag at dreamhack" if they would DQ me. Because we all know fag = cigarette, right? Or is a queer? Who knows!
You'd probably be DQ'd, yeah ;D Regardless of whether or not it's okay that nowadays people get offended over basically anything, I think that it was just dumb as fuck from Kas to say something that will 100% be held against him in some way. It's like Social Media 101 at this point. Don't post non-politically correct shit on your Twitter if you're not some kind of edgy revolutionary-type avant-garde dude who just wants to piss off everybody.
Well, the problem was probably that Kas wasn't really aware of what he was saying, because of him not being a good English speaker.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled"
All the numbers are all over the place. Only 100 people are convicted for rape in Norway every year, and somehow that extrapolates to 8.000-16.000 rapes.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
Yeah, who cares about the third world or pseudo first world countries right? If someone is offended there nobody cares o_O #sarcasm
Yeah, we also can't make jokes about water or medicine, because people in third world countries will get offended because they die from the lack of that all the time.
If you extend this line of thinking, you can't actually joke about anything because somebody somewhere is bound to get offended.
You are using a snowball fallacy here, lets continue. We cannot discuss anything since somebody might disagree and might be offended. We should stop talking, since anything we say can directly or indirectly reflect some opinion, that someone is bound to disagree with. Thats not how it works. Its simple, discuss if its ok or not for Kas to tweet that, do not use a fictional example and claim its the same thing.
But where do you draw the cutoff point? What number of people getting offended? Come up with a system to measure the magnitude of offensiveness? Wouldn't any cutoff point be arbitrary?
It's all a silly business really.
Where to draw a cutoff point? I think they did it right. Its not about numbers, it was directed towards an individual, so that is enough. If it was a clearly hamless tweet, then ofc he should not be banned, but that is not the case. Its not precise, but its probably in accordance with the law, usually a good standard. *edited
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled".
On November 22 2014 15:28 Komentaja wrote: I wish someone would actually translate Maddelisk's response instead of using google. It's unintelligible in key points.
Kas' post sounded bad to me at first, because I didn't know there was a tournament coming up (even with his hashtag making it logical that there was). I don't follow the SC2 scene much anymore, but I did for a few years. That would make me more likely than most to be accepting of his statement. Yet, I wasn't at all. That makes it obvious that the tournament organizers would not want to have the tweet associated with their tournament.
Fragbite Masters (of slaves?) isn't the most appealing name to be connected with a company, however. And this is a "violent", bloody game. Why draw the harsh line at the point of an okay joke (given the right context)? Humor always offends people, and no publicity is bad publicity. I can see why Fragbite Masters would be annoyed, and even why they would disqualify Kas. What I don't understand is how they would be dumb enough to do so. I don't get why people make news stories of presidential candidates doing idiotic things in their childhood, or even of doing anything more than thirty years ago. Who are you trying to impress by blowing up trivial things? It's not working...
Maddelisk and several femals in and outside the scene got hurt by that sentence. Thats trivial?
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled".
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
Yeah, who cares about the third world or pseudo first world countries right? If someone is offended there nobody cares o_O #sarcasm
Yeah, we also can't make jokes about water or medicine, because people in third world countries will get offended because they die from the lack of that all the time.
If you extend this line of thinking, you can't actually joke about anything because somebody somewhere is bound to get offended.
You are using a snowball fallacy here, lets continue. We cannot discuss anything since somebody might disagree and might be offended. We should stop talking, since anything we say can directly or indirectly reflect some opinion, that someone is bound to disagree with. Thats not how it works. Its simple, discuss if its ok or not for Kas to tweet that, do not use a fictional example and claim its the same thing.
But where do you draw the cutoff point? What number of people getting offended? Come up with a system to measure the magnitude of offensiveness? Wouldn't any cutoff point be arbitrary?
It's all a silly business really.
Where to draw a cutoff point? I think they did it right. Its not about numbers, it was directed towards an individual, so that is enough. If it was a clearly hamless tweet, then ofc he should not be banned, but that is not the case. Its not precise, but its probably in accordance with the law, a good standard by any means.
The cutoff point argument was referring to the issue of what jokes are acceptable in response to your accusation of a snowball fallacy, not the Kas incident.
On November 22 2014 14:49 brickrd wrote: [quote]your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
It's a matter of simple logical consistency,
If you told someone who had to live daily with the fear of being killed that you would kill them, and if the person saying he would kill you belonged to the group who had a history of killing people like you I would have reacted just as strongly.
Also you do realize nobody have commited a crime? The argument is simply, do you think its ok to tell woman ypu will rape them? If i went over to your girlfriend and told her i would rape her you would tell her its no big deal because being killed is worse then being raped?
No it wouldn't be fine. But it would be much worse if you went up to her and told her you were going to kill her.
Still don't get the point?
Yes i do, you are agreeing that you should not tell woman you will rape them. Case closed.
Now if you want to campaign for banning people for saying they will kill a oponent who is fearing for his life go ahead. I dont think you will meet much tesistance.
Case is not closed yet. Players are banned for talking about rape, but not banned for talking about killing an opponent.
Since Kill > rape, either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency.
One person got disqualified from one tournament for telling a girl he was gonna rep her.
You are still drawing a false equivilant. Sexual harrassment is something most woman experience in one form or anorher. Most people dont live in fear of being killed. If one person did and someone said they was going to kill him i would suport him getting disqualified from a tournamen as well. Now you tell me where this happened?
Its also peculiar that you defend something you admit to being wrong because you think something worse is being accepted. Wouldent it be better to fight to get this thing that is worse banned as well? Insted of saying something you think is wrong should be allowed? Surely if we find a low point we shouldent try to sink every other standar to it but try to raise the low point insted?
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled".
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled".
Even that is a crazy outlier. 77 of those were killed by the same person.
Incredible. 77? That's on the scale of that Navy Seal sniper who wrote a book. I'm surprised that there are so few killings, though, in general. Even if the number of rapes found in that widely quoted CDC study is exaggerated, there are still way more rapes than killings. I guess the wide media coverage of killings has overinflated my internal guess of their number.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled".
Even that is a crazy outlier. 77 of those were killed by the same person.
Incredible. 77? That's on the scale of that Navy Seal sniper who wrote a book. I'm surprised that there are so few killings, though, in general. Even if the number of rapes found in that widely quoted CDC study is exaggerated, there are still way more rapes than killings. I guess the wide media coverage of killings has overinflated my internal guess of their number.
On November 22 2014 14:54 Pangpootata wrote: [quote]
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
It's a matter of simple logical consistency,
If you told someone who had to live daily with the fear of being killed that you would kill them, and if the person saying he would kill you belonged to the group who had a history of killing people like you I would have reacted just as strongly.
Also you do realize nobody have commited a crime? The argument is simply, do you think its ok to tell woman ypu will rape them? If i went over to your girlfriend and told her i would rape her you would tell her its no big deal because being killed is worse then being raped?
No it wouldn't be fine. But it would be much worse if you went up to her and told her you were going to kill her.
Still don't get the point?
Yes i do, you are agreeing that you should not tell woman you will rape them. Case closed.
Now if you want to campaign for banning people for saying they will kill a oponent who is fearing for his life go ahead. I dont think you will meet much tesistance.
Case is not closed yet. Players are banned for talking about rape, but not banned for talking about killing an opponent.
Since Kill > rape, either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency.
One person got disqualified from one tournament for telling a girl he was gonna rep her.
You are still drawing a false equivilant. Sexual harrassment is something most woman experience in one form or anorher. Most people dont live in fear of being killed. If one person did and someone said they was going to kill him i would suport him getting disqualified from a tournamen as well. Now you tell me where this happened?
Its also peculiar that you defend something you admit to being wrong because you think something worse is being accepted. Wouldent it be better to fight to get this thing that is worse banned as well? Insted of saying something you think is wrong should be allowed? Surely if we find a low point we shouldent try to sink every other standar to it but try to raise the low point insted?
Yeap, that's why I said either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency. But to me, regardless of whether a high or low standard is chosen, logical consistency is more important.
Edit: Regarding the point about fear, I already gave an example. More people live in fear of getting hit (since it's more common) than getting rape. So would this mean that threatening to hit someone is worse than threatening to rape someone? Again it goes back to the point about consistency. It's best to either ban all jokes about crimes, or allow all, instead of doing things arbitrarily based on feelings.
On November 22 2014 14:49 brickrd wrote: [quote]your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
It's a matter of simple logical consistency,
If you told someone who had to live daily with the fear of being killed that you would kill them, and if the person saying he would kill you belonged to the group who had a history of killing people like you I would have reacted just as strongly.
Also you do realize nobody have commited a crime? The argument is simply, do you think its ok to tell woman ypu will rape them? If i went over to your girlfriend and told her i would rape her you would tell her its no big deal because being killed is worse then being raped?
No it wouldn't be fine. But it would be much worse if you went up to her and told her you were going to kill her.
Still don't get the point?
Yes i do, you are agreeing that you should not tell woman you will rape them. Case closed.
Now if you want to campaign for banning people for saying they will kill a oponent who is fearing for his life go ahead. I dont think you will meet much tesistance.
Case is not closed yet. Players are banned for talking about rape, but not banned for talking about killing an opponent.
Since Kill > rape, either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency.
people could try to explain things to you, but what's the point? you don't care. you don't want people to not say violent things to one another, you just want to be able to tell a woman that you're going to rape her and then high five your idiot friends about it and whine like a baby about freedom if anyone calls you a douchebag for having done so. grow up.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
Yeah, who cares about the third world or pseudo first world countries right? If someone is offended there nobody cares o_O #sarcasm
Yeah, we also can't make jokes about water or medicine, because people in third world countries will get offended because they die from the lack of that all the time.
If you extend this line of thinking, you can't actually joke about anything because somebody somewhere is bound to get offended.
You are using a snowball fallacy here, lets continue. We cannot discuss anything since somebody might disagree and might be offended. We should stop talking, since anything we say can directly or indirectly reflect some opinion, that someone is bound to disagree with. Thats not how it works. Its simple, discuss if its ok or not for Kas to tweet that, do not use a fictional example and claim its the same thing.
But where do you draw the cutoff point? What number of people getting offended? Come up with a system to measure the magnitude of offensiveness? Wouldn't any cutoff point be arbitrary?
It's all a silly business really.
Where to draw a cutoff point? I think they did it right. Its not about numbers, it was directed towards an individual, so that is enough. If it was a clearly hamless tweet, then ofc he should not be banned, but that is not the case. Its not precise, but its probably in accordance with the law, a good standard by any means.
The cutoff point argument was referring to the issue of what jokes are acceptable in response to your accusation of a snowball fallacy, not the Kas incident.
There is no clear cutoff point, indeed. Its up to each organization to judge that, and the society can accept it or not. But its a fallacy because that "rape jokes not being ok" do not imply that water and medicine jokes are not ok. "Extending this line of thinking" is the fallacy.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled"
All the numbers are all over the place. Only 100 people are convicted for rape in Norway every year, and somehow that extrapolates to 8.000-16.000 rapes.
I geniounly cannot believe people as nasty or as blind as you exist. 3.800 rapes wete reported in norway in 2007, numbers from rape centers and survays shows the number to be between 8000 and 16000. Thats a conservative estimate. If you actually talk to woman or simply go out on the weekend you would not doubt this numbers at all.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
Yeah, who cares about the third world or pseudo first world countries right? If someone is offended there nobody cares o_O #sarcasm
Yeah, we also can't make jokes about water or medicine, because people in third world countries will get offended because they die from the lack of that all the time.
If you extend this line of thinking, you can't actually joke about anything because somebody somewhere is bound to get offended.
You are using a snowball fallacy here, lets continue. We cannot discuss anything since somebody might disagree and might be offended. We should stop talking, since anything we say can directly or indirectly reflect some opinion, that someone is bound to disagree with. Thats not how it works. Its simple, discuss if its ok or not for Kas to tweet that, do not use a fictional example and claim its the same thing.
But where do you draw the cutoff point? What number of people getting offended? Come up with a system to measure the magnitude of offensiveness? Wouldn't any cutoff point be arbitrary?
It's all a silly business really.
Where to draw a cutoff point? I think they did it right. Its not about numbers, it was directed towards an individual, so that is enough. If it was a clearly hamless tweet, then ofc he should not be banned, but that is not the case. Its not precise, but its probably in accordance with the law, a good standard by any means.
The cutoff point argument was referring to the issue of what jokes are acceptable in response to your accusation of a snowball fallacy, not the Kas incident.
There is no clear cutoff point, indeed. Its up to each organization to judge that, and the society can accept it or not. But its a fallacy because that "rape jokes not being ok" do not imply that water and medicine jokes are not ok. "Extending this line of thinking" is the fallacy.
Extending this line of thinking is the idea behind legal precedent. It's hardly a fallacy.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
It's a matter of simple logical consistency,
If you told someone who had to live daily with the fear of being killed that you would kill them, and if the person saying he would kill you belonged to the group who had a history of killing people like you I would have reacted just as strongly.
Also you do realize nobody have commited a crime? The argument is simply, do you think its ok to tell woman ypu will rape them? If i went over to your girlfriend and told her i would rape her you would tell her its no big deal because being killed is worse then being raped?
No it wouldn't be fine. But it would be much worse if you went up to her and told her you were going to kill her.
Still don't get the point?
Yes i do, you are agreeing that you should not tell woman you will rape them. Case closed.
Now if you want to campaign for banning people for saying they will kill a oponent who is fearing for his life go ahead. I dont think you will meet much tesistance.
Case is not closed yet. Players are banned for talking about rape, but not banned for talking about killing an opponent.
Since Kill > rape, either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency.
One person got disqualified from one tournament for telling a girl he was gonna rep her.
You are still drawing a false equivilant. Sexual harrassment is something most woman experience in one form or anorher. Most people dont live in fear of being killed. If one person did and someone said they was going to kill him i would suport him getting disqualified from a tournamen as well. Now you tell me where this happened?
Its also peculiar that you defend something you admit to being wrong because you think something worse is being accepted. Wouldent it be better to fight to get this thing that is worse banned as well? Insted of saying something you think is wrong should be allowed? Surely if we find a low point we shouldent try to sink every other standar to it but try to raise the low point insted?
Yeap, that's why I said either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency. But to me, regardless of whether a high or low standard is chosen, logical consistency is more important.
Edit: Regarding the point about fear, I already gave an example. More people live in fear of getting hit (since it's more common) than getting rape. So would this mean that threatening to hit someone is worse than threatening to rape someone? Again it goes back to the point about consistency. It's best to either ban all jokes about crimes, or allow all, instead of doing things arbitrarily based on feelings.
What? What you are saying makes no sense at all.
I give up.
I allready told you, find me one example of a guy fearing for his life that gets told that he will be killed by someone and i will support disqualifying tbat person from a starcraft tournament.
I would strongly disagree with hitting being more common then sexual harrassment based on any given night on the town. That you even manage to compare all the sexual bs they have to take from guys to someone being afraid of being hit is amazing.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled".
On November 22 2014 15:28 Komentaja wrote: I wish someone would actually translate Maddelisk's response instead of using google. It's unintelligible in key points.
Kas' post sounded bad to me at first, because I didn't know there was a tournament coming up (even with his hashtag making it logical that there was). I don't follow the SC2 scene much anymore, but I did for a few years. That would make me more likely than most to be accepting of his statement. Yet, I wasn't at all. That makes it obvious that the tournament organizers would not want to have the tweet associated with their tournament.
Fragbite Masters (of slaves?) isn't the most appealing name to be connected with a company, however. And this is a "violent", bloody game. Why draw the harsh line at the point of an okay joke (given the right context)? Humor always offends people, and no publicity is bad publicity. I can see why Fragbite Masters would be annoyed, and even why they would disqualify Kas. What I don't understand is how they would be dumb enough to do so. I don't get why people make news stories of presidential candidates doing idiotic things in their childhood, or even of doing anything more than thirty years ago. Who are you trying to impress by blowing up trivial things? It's not working...
Maddelisk and several femals in and outside the scene got hurt by that sentence. Thats trivial?
There is no source in this thread saying that is the case.
Edit: and even if it was the case that they got "hurt", then [b]yes, I believe it's trivial. It sounds like a manufactured wound in that case.
Look at the tweets they wrote. Many were hurt. Pushing woman out of the scene and other peoples feelings are trivial... I geniounly cant believe tbe people in this threat. I thought people here were more intelligent and more evolved then this.
On November 22 2014 14:43 Pangpootata wrote: Imagine if Kas had said "Going to kill an opponent soon". Would he have gotten banned for that?
No.
But murder is a more serious crime than rape, so why would he get banned for saying "Going to rape some girl soon"?
Isn't it silly how peoples' repressed sexual desires have made rape an emotionally charged issue, while more serious crimes such as murder can be talked about trivially?
This whole issue disgusts me.
your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled".
On November 22 2014 15:10 Pangpootata wrote: [quote] >40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
It's a matter of simple logical consistency,
If you told someone who had to live daily with the fear of being killed that you would kill them, and if the person saying he would kill you belonged to the group who had a history of killing people like you I would have reacted just as strongly.
Also you do realize nobody have commited a crime? The argument is simply, do you think its ok to tell woman ypu will rape them? If i went over to your girlfriend and told her i would rape her you would tell her its no big deal because being killed is worse then being raped?
No it wouldn't be fine. But it would be much worse if you went up to her and told her you were going to kill her.
Still don't get the point?
Yes i do, you are agreeing that you should not tell woman you will rape them. Case closed.
Now if you want to campaign for banning people for saying they will kill a oponent who is fearing for his life go ahead. I dont think you will meet much tesistance.
Case is not closed yet. Players are banned for talking about rape, but not banned for talking about killing an opponent.
Since Kill > rape, either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency.
One person got disqualified from one tournament for telling a girl he was gonna rep her.
You are still drawing a false equivilant. Sexual harrassment is something most woman experience in one form or anorher. Most people dont live in fear of being killed. If one person did and someone said they was going to kill him i would suport him getting disqualified from a tournamen as well. Now you tell me where this happened?
Its also peculiar that you defend something you admit to being wrong because you think something worse is being accepted. Wouldent it be better to fight to get this thing that is worse banned as well? Insted of saying something you think is wrong should be allowed? Surely if we find a low point we shouldent try to sink every other standar to it but try to raise the low point insted?
Yeap, that's why I said either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency. But to me, regardless of whether a high or low standard is chosen, logical consistency is more important.
Edit: Regarding the point about fear, I already gave an example. More people live in fear of getting hit (since it's more common) than getting rape. So would this mean that threatening to hit someone is worse than threatening to rape someone? Again it goes back to the point about consistency. It's best to either ban all jokes about crimes, or allow all, instead of doing things arbitrarily based on feelings.
What? What you are saying makes no sense at all.
I give up.
I allready told you, find me one example of a guy fearing for his life that gets told that he will be killed by someone and i will support disqualifying tbat person from a starcraft tournament.
I would strongly disagree with hitting being more common then sexual harrassment based on any given night on the town. That you even manage to compare all the sexual bs they have to take from guys to someone being afraid of being hit is amazing.
1) Do you think maddelisk really feared that Kas would rape her?
On November 22 2014 14:49 brickrd wrote: [quote]your logic is childish at best and sinister at worst, there are so many reasons it's different that i don't know where to begin
"kill" or "to die", linguistically speaking, doesn't always carry a connotation of ending a human life. it's much more common and accepted for "death" to be used metaphorically in any number of ways. your car's engine died. your passion for starcraft died. a bill died in the senate. to "kill" your opponent can simply mean to end their chances of winning the tournament, to stop their momentum. there is an almost infinite precedent for using "kill" this way in the english language. using "rape" to mean "defeat in a competition" is not something that's typically seen or accepted outside of a culture of sexually immature male gamers behind the veil of the internet, and for good reason
how many pro SC2 gamers do you think live in real fear of being murdered on an everyday basis? even in violent areas your odds of being murdered are fairly low. do you know what the odds of a woman being raped or sexually abused in her life are? not just by a stranger but by a family member or friend? do you actually understand how common and pervasive the problem of sexual abuse against women is? it's a matter of reality. it's not reality to presume that a gamer will have anxiety or fear triggered by a comment about being "killed" at their game, especially since the game's context in itself involves fictional soldiers fighting and killing each other in a war
that you think the reason for not wanting women to feel harassed and live in fear is "repressed sexual desires" is possibly the most offensive thing i've seen in this thread
Outside of the context of online games, rape has always meant to seize or capture by force. If you go look up the etymology of rape, the sexual meaning is only a very recent development, which I'm sure anyone who reads classics and eschews the vernacular would know.
Besides, it is more common for people to be killed (by any factor) than raped.
Anyway, most women don't live in fear of being raped unless it's some third world country or some shitty pseudo-first world country.
6000-8000 woman gets raped each year in Norway, that only counts vaginal prnetrating and is consideted a very conservative estimate.
>40000 people in Norway get killed per year (by any factor). Dying is more common than getting raped
Anyway, the basic argument you are putting forth is that although killing is more serious than rape, more people live in fear of getting rape, i.e. it's the fear of it actually happening rather than the severity of the crime.
Extending this logic wouldn't it mean threatening to punch someone is worse than threatening to rape someone because more people live in fear of getting hit than getting raped?
I do agree that people should try not to rape each other, but this whole business about rape receiving special attention is silly.
The 40000 number you cite is all people dieing in Norway. Probably a very little proportion of them actually "gets killled".
Let me clarify why it sounds offensive, im not bashing Kas here, im aware that he recognized his mistake and apologized.
-Women can sensitive about rape jokes because most of them are familiar with different degrees of sexual harassment from either personal experience or others experience (from close people) that they can obviously relate to very well.
-Its natural to use words like "crushing", "killing" or "beating" in a war game. that is what is depicted in game. But if you choose "rape" instead specifically when adressing a woman, then we cannot help asking why you choose that word.
-He said "rape some girl" which highlights the fact that he choosed the word rape because he would play a woman. That can be offensive by the reason stated above, but its also discrimination.
edit: Thank you for breaking my overly serious tone Hendralisk XD
Im sorry, your argument is that more people die then woman get raped so its ok to tell woman you will rape them?
No. I'm saying that telling people you will kill them is more serious then telling people you will rape them. So if people don't get banned for telling people you will kill them, they shouldn't be banned for saying the same thing about rape.
It's a matter of simple logical consistency,
If you told someone who had to live daily with the fear of being killed that you would kill them, and if the person saying he would kill you belonged to the group who had a history of killing people like you I would have reacted just as strongly.
Also you do realize nobody have commited a crime? The argument is simply, do you think its ok to tell woman ypu will rape them? If i went over to your girlfriend and told her i would rape her you would tell her its no big deal because being killed is worse then being raped?
No it wouldn't be fine. But it would be much worse if you went up to her and told her you were going to kill her.
Still don't get the point?
Yes i do, you are agreeing that you should not tell woman you will rape them. Case closed.
Now if you want to campaign for banning people for saying they will kill a oponent who is fearing for his life go ahead. I dont think you will meet much tesistance.
Case is not closed yet. Players are banned for talking about rape, but not banned for talking about killing an opponent.
Since Kill > rape, either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency.
One person got disqualified from one tournament for telling a girl he was gonna rep her.
You are still drawing a false equivilant. Sexual harrassment is something most woman experience in one form or anorher. Most people dont live in fear of being killed. If one person did and someone said they was going to kill him i would suport him getting disqualified from a tournamen as well. Now you tell me where this happened?
Its also peculiar that you defend something you admit to being wrong because you think something worse is being accepted. Wouldent it be better to fight to get this thing that is worse banned as well? Insted of saying something you think is wrong should be allowed? Surely if we find a low point we shouldent try to sink every other standar to it but try to raise the low point insted?
Yeap, that's why I said either unban those who joke about rape or ban those who joke about killing, to maintain consistency. But to me, regardless of whether a high or low standard is chosen, logical consistency is more important.
Edit: Regarding the point about fear, I already gave an example. More people live in fear of getting hit (since it's more common) than getting rape. So would this mean that threatening to hit someone is worse than threatening to rape someone? Again it goes back to the point about consistency. It's best to either ban all jokes about crimes, or allow all, instead of doing things arbitrarily based on feelings.
What? What you are saying makes no sense at all.
I give up.
I allready told you, find me one example of a guy fearing for his life that gets told that he will be killed by someone and i will support disqualifying tbat person from a starcraft tournament.
I would strongly disagree with hitting being more common then sexual harrassment based on any given night on the town. That you even manage to compare all the sexual bs they have to take from guys to someone being afraid of being hit is amazing.
1) Do you think maddelisk really feared that Kas would rape her?
1) sexual harassment =/= rape. Please stop.
No, what im saying is that sexual harrassment is something most woman will have to deal with in their life, in that context someone telling you they will rape you, joke or not, might not be so funny. There is no equal context for murder.
Nobody has said sexual harrassment is the same as rape. But unless you think one is ok, mind you everything that is not vaginal penetration gets classified as sexual harrassment, i fail to see your point.
-He said "rape some girl" which highlights the fact that he choosed the word rape because he would play a woman. That can be offensive by the reason stated above, but its also discrimination.
-He said "rape some girl" which highlights the fact that he choosed the word rape because he would play a woman. That can be offensive by the reason stated above, but its also discrimination.
This.
I precisely think he didn't make the unfortunate link between "rape" and "girl" in his head. He would have said "time to rape some gold leaguer" all the same if he had had to play a newbie. I still think that he just doesn't speak English well enough to have realized what he said. If he did intentionally make that connection, well he's worse than I thought. Nothing to redeem really. Because for me making that connection is equivalent to stripping "rape" of its gaming slang sense.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4iNtSt2.png)
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