EPTMutas also didn't have uber-regeneration in WoL.
Terran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 51
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
Mutas also didn't have uber-regeneration in WoL. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On July 04 2014 12:14 Chaggi wrote: 40 hp so they can get wrecked by colossi and TvT will turn into mech vs mech? They already get wrecked by Colossi - that's the problem. They're really strong early and mid and they're garbage late because they don't have the right units to compliment them. Terran players are stuck spamming tier one units all game because that's their best (only decent) option. Change the dynamic by toning them down early and giving them something strong mid and late game. Boom. Terran just became a hell of a lot more interesting. And yes, TvT would change dramatically - thank Christ. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 04 2014 04:57 vjcamarena wrote: @TheDwf Love your analysis, man. Which changes do you consider the most important? Would it be the mines/stim/mutas trifecta? Yes, they are core changes needed to fix bio play in TvZ and TvP. That seems mostly Zerg related. Do you think its TvZ that needs the most help? Bio in TvZ needs as much help, yes; Terrans in Korea mostly win thanks to 2 rax, mech and Hellbat timings. This is why winrates are not 35:65 like in TvP, but the fact many Korean Terrans do their best to stay away from triple OC bio macro games scenarii is a pretty telling tale in itself. If you were to run tests for normal 4M vs lings/banes/mutas games, you could expect similarly depressing results. The two other things concern TvZ, but the stim change is aimed at TvP. Currently, Protoss has one Overcharge at 5'30 and another at 8'30, i.e. exactly around the time stim completes at the earliest after fast expands. The threat of an earlier stim timing before the second Overcharge would force Protoss to build units (while currently they can get away with 3 Stalkers and have one Sentry ready for 8'30), which would weaken their builds (slow the amount of tech they get) and thus open more room for Terran aggression in midgame. I don't know if this would be sufficient to resynchronize the development of both races but this is the best chance without impacting too much the other match-ups. The only other solution I see is a Photon Overcharge nerf to 9 range, 45-50 seconds and +20 damage to Shieds. On top of that, a 140 seconds stim would weaken countless timings/all-ins because they would have a reduced window. An immortal bust is less hot if you have only 30 seconds instead of a whole minute before stim completes. The snowbally nature of Blink attacks would not be as deadly if the defender had stim at the first wave. Even things like DT play would be riskier if Terran could threaten an earlier stim timing to retaliate. In TvZ, the stim buff would have limited impact because: 1. Triple OC bio builds already have 1/1, stim and CS by the time Medivacs travel from the Starport to the edge of the creep. 2. Unless I forgot something, there are currently no viable 2-bases timing hitting right when stim finishes. Things like 2 fact BFH or Hellbats timings don't even need stim at all. 3 rax Hellions Medivacs timings hit later than stim and need to hit before stim + CS would complete even with the new stim research time. 3. The model of a stimmed bio timing without Medivacs doesn't work because Queens + Speedlings can deal with it easily, plus playing without Hellions is always coinflippy. I personally think the tank change you suggest is the most interesting one, maybe not the most needed tho. It is the only one that I think buffs unorthodox/late game oriented play for Terran. I'd be in favor of having to research Siege Mode if this buffed Siege shots too much (I don't think it does, but still). Yes, it's a "diversity" change, but this time with the advantage it wouldn't slaughter the other option. It would need extensive testing since it would basically result in a "fourth match-up," but Protoss would benefit a lot from a viable mech because they would have the opportunity to fully play the "bio role". | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On July 04 2014 19:09 TheDwf wrote: + Show Spoiler + On July 04 2014 04:57 vjcamarena wrote: @TheDwf Love your analysis, man. Which changes do you consider the most important? Would it be the mines/stim/mutas trifecta? Yes, they are core changes needed to fix bio play in TvZ and TvP. That seems mostly Zerg related. Do you think its TvZ that needs the most help? Bio in TvZ needs as much help, yes; Terrans in Korea mostly win thanks to 2 rax, mech and Hellbat timings. This is why winrates are not 35:65 like in TvP, but the fact many Korean Terrans do their best to stay away from triple OC bio macro games scenarii is a pretty telling tale in itself. If you were to run tests for normal 4M vs lings/banes/mutas games, you could expect similarly depressing results. The two other things concern TvZ, but the stim change is aimed at TvP. Currently, Protoss has one Overcharge at 5'30 and another at 8'30, i.e. exactly around the time stim completes at the earliest after fast expands. The threat of an earlier stim timing before the second Overcharge would force Protoss to build units (while currently they can get away with 3 Stalkers and have one Sentry ready for 8'30), which would weaken their builds (slow the amount of tech they get) and thus open more room for Terran aggression in midgame. I don't know if this would be sufficient to resynchronize the development of both races but this is the best chance without impacting too much the other match-ups. The only other solution I see is a Photon Overcharge nerf to 9 range, 45-50 seconds and +20 damage to Shieds. On top of that, a 140 seconds stim would weaken countless timings/all-ins because they would have a reduced window. An immortal bust is less hot if you have only 30 seconds instead of a whole minute before stim completes. The snowbally nature of Blink attacks would not be as deadly if the defender had stim at the first wave. Even things like DT play would be riskier if Terran could threaten an earlier stim timing to retaliate. In TvZ, the stim buff would have limited impact because: 1. Triple OC bio builds already have 1/1, stim and CS by the time Medivacs travel from the Starport to the edge of the creep. 2. Unless I forgot something, there are currently no viable 2-bases timing hitting right when stim finishes. Things like 2 fact BFH or Hellbats timings don't even need stim at all. 3 rax Hellions Medivacs timings hit later than stim and need to hit before stim + CS would complete even with the new stim research time. 3. The model of a stimmed bio timing without Medivacs doesn't work because Queens + Speedlings can deal with it easily, plus playing without Hellions is always coinflippy. I personally think the tank change you suggest is the most interesting one, maybe not the most needed tho. It is the only one that I think buffs unorthodox/late game oriented play for Terran. I'd be in favor of having to research Siege Mode if this buffed Siege shots too much (I don't think it does, but still). Yes, it's a "diversity" change, but this time with the advantage it wouldn't slaughter the other option. It would need extensive testing since it would basically result in a "fourth match-up," but Protoss would benefit a lot from a viable mech because they would have the opportunity to fully play the "bio role". Best summary for Stim un-nerfing i have ever seen. Well written Mr. Downfall. Can someone email this to people in the development team? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23772 Posts
It doesn't really make sense that stim research timing from an era of XNC is still the case given the exponential increase in the size of maps. | ||
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THC28
1 Post
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Personally i'd like to see buffs to units that open new paths, making terrans less predictable. Change vikings from air units with ground-mode to ground units with air-mode, put them in the factory. Dumb idea, i know, but something like that. Don't buff units, change techpaths so more options become viable at different times. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 04 2014 20:02 Wombat_NI wrote: It makes too much sense to be implemented and having a specific underlying rationale with relation to timings won't make a difference anyway. It doesn't really make sense that stim research timing from an era of XNC is still the case given the exponential increase in the size of maps. That argument justifies a re-evaluation of everything for every map that gets ever made. Zergling speed, was implemented for XNC type maps Roach speed, implemented for XNC type maps. etc etc etc. The argument that a faster stim helps with blink is imo the main reason why this buff makes sense. I guess more pressure for the Terran might also be OK, but for that there are a thousand possibilities, nothing that would ask for stim in particular to be buffed. Imo, when too big maps break things, we should rather ask why we make so big maps. Like, there is a map forum on TL. We just had a mapcontest finishing. There are always mappers around looking for input. Everybody can participate themselves there. The next mappool will consist exclusively of community/mapper made maps, nothing by blizzard (as far as I remember) and in the current one there are only 2blizzard maps. --> just make smaller maps, if bigger maps are broken | ||
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
I think hots finally enabled Mech vs Zerg. Zerg has to prepare a timing with roaches to deny the third base or all following battles will swing in terrans favor. If the mines where stronger it would be good for defending vs muta packs that erase turrets left and right and dont care about mine hits. Vehicle + Airupgrades do the I am not a fan of the Tempest and the phoenix range upgtrade, Tempest shuld kill Broodlord infestor, Phoenix range should deal with Regen Muta. Well remove both. Add BroodWar Carrier Miro and it is fine. Underused Zerg units: Viper and Infestor. The fact that most Zergs can play macrogames WITHOUT their cost effcient, hard to control caster units shows that something is indeed wrong. Even when facing Mech, Zerg still goes for more bases and more Mutas and Swarm hosts. It takes one good Seeker Missle to basicly end the game and reverse a 20 minute Baseadvantage. Blinding Cloud and fungal deal with tanks and air....still zergs try to mass muta their way to victory. | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
polt vs bly 2012 and u can see at 9.3 how closed are 1/1 zerg and stim are. just need to add an armory(hellbat) and we have a strong 2base push that will come before 1/1 zerg if it's there is 30 secondes up on stim. stim launched at 7.2, done at 9minutes :S also, as i already stated, terran always strat cleaning a fews second before upgrades are done cause zerg is not supposed to engaged off creep. 30 secondes will have too much impact (1 inject or warp cycle lost) and terran will be able too refine some nasty BO and if u do the same in PvT like u mentionned, maru will hit 75% winrate vs toss a nerf of the overcharge is not an option cause of PvP. i prefer a redesign of the raven when pdd(cancels overcharge) will be available easier, iow i want to do something vs enemy units, i build enemy unit's counter, like siege vs immortal^^) Nerfing mutas is not a an option cause PvZ . To have a real unit vs mutas for terran is a good think :p(bye bye thor  )conclusion : we need a testing map where stim take -10 and -20 secondes to research and spam BO^^ | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
And Maru having 75% in TvP would be shocking. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On July 02 2014 21:14 Thezzy wrote: One change that might help without cutting too deeply in defense would be to change the MSC speed to that of the old Overlord (around 0.88) and add a MSC Speed upgrade at the Cybernetics Core at 50/50/110. This would weaken Blink attacks because the MSC would take far longer to get across the map and would be far more vulnerable to get sniped by Marines. By putting the upgrade at the Cybernetics Core, Protoss can still opt for a fast MSC, but it would delay Warp Gate, meaning that the Blink attack is delayed. This would also delay sending the MSC straight to the Terran mineral line as it soon as it spawns. As a result, Oracles and Dark Templar would become a little more favored for all-ins, which share a defense in the Engineer Bay via Turrets. Posted this a couple pages back, I didn't consider PvP at the time but I think this wouldn't negatively affect PvP or PvZ as it only curbs the offensive potential of the MSC whilst leaving the defensive portion of PO the same. Still looking for any feedback on it.  | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
With that change, you could hold off mass mutas with 1 or 2 Thors and mass repair, although it would cost you a lot of SCVs to do so and you wouldn't actually kill any of the mutas. Right now they can just spread their mutas out in such a situation and you lose the game on the spot. 4+ Thors would make it impossible for mutas to attack what they're covering at all. It would also make them better against Brood Lords, but worse against Vipers, which is probably a change for the better. It would also make things more interesting for Zerg, after harassing a position where there was only 1 or 2 Thors, you'll have a bunch of 40-60 HP mutas and now you have to decide if you're going to wait for them to regen or try to harass somewhere else and risk losing all of them. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
I don't like the high-tech suggestions such as a complicated Thor AA buff. I believe buffs ought to come at a very basic level. Direct unit/upgrade/building stats tweaks and such. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On July 05 2014 04:02 cheekymonkey wrote: the stim research buff is a clever suggestion. It would certainly do wonders to the TvP matchup, and wouldn't hurt in TvZ too bad I think. actually it does cuz u can squeeze in stim for marine-hellbat medivac timing. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
On July 05 2014 04:03 Xinzoe wrote: actually it does cuz u can squeeze in stim for marine-hellbat medivac timing. Well, that's one timing. It's not like zergs haven't survived new horrifying timings before and come out on top in the end. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On July 05 2014 04:03 Xinzoe wrote: actually it does cuz u can squeeze in stim for marine-hellbat medivac timing. The 8 min timing has like 6 marines and Zergs have already figured out how to have enough roaches in time to hold it comfortably. It's only killer when the Zerg doesn't know it's coming. | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
with your extensive research, would you say that part of the reason the MU winrates develop this way is that Terran playstyles have adapted and innovated little (for whatever reason) and hence the only real improvement area are mechanics which obviously hit a skill ceiling as compared to tactical play, strategies, getting better at defending T pressures? | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
On July 04 2014 20:30 Big J wrote: That argument justifies a re-evaluation of everything for every map that gets ever made. Zergling speed, was implemented for XNC type maps Roach speed, implemented for XNC type maps. etc etc etc. The argument that a faster stim helps with blink is imo the main reason why this buff makes sense. I guess more pressure for the Terran might also be OK, but for that there are a thousand possibilities, nothing that would ask for stim in particular to be buffed. Imo, when too big maps break things, we should rather ask why we make so big maps. Like, there is a map forum on TL. We just had a mapcontest finishing. There are always mappers around looking for input. Everybody can participate themselves there. The next mappool will consist exclusively of community/mapper made maps, nothing by blizzard (as far as I remember) and in the current one there are only 2blizzard maps. --> just make smaller maps, if bigger maps are broken Yes!!! A good route for the comunity to balance the game is through mapmaking! Lets send the proper feedback for the mapmakers, this season map pool is already more balanced than season 1 and 2 (or at least it looks like). Yes, in the end blizzard chooses the maps, but i suppose they won't do it before reading some well made map analysis. Maps affect balance a lot, so much that maps with a good foward third, good space for drops, no immensely open spaces, no space to blink in the main, no easy bases alway from the opponent and smaller rush distance might be ok for terran with no changes in any units. When was the last time somebody said "this map is good for terran"? | ||
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