On July 05 2014 00:02 Cazimirbzh wrote: theDwf, even if it's an old game, the BO seems good polt vs bly 2012 and u can see at 9.3 how closed are 1/1 zerg and stim are.
Yes, but this is irrelevant since Polt's build doesn't attack as soon as stim is done; he would hit at the same time whether stim takes 140 or 170 seconds. His attack is technically a Stim/CS/+1 timing, i.e. he's supposed to wait all of that before attacking.
just need to add an armory(hellbat) and we have a strong 2base push that will come before 1/1 zerg if it's there is 30 secondes up on stim.
You can't say "just add a 150/100 building" when the build is already so tight. Furthermore, 1/1 is irrelevant because to defend such a push (Hellbats/Marines/Marauders), you would go Roaches/banes and certainly not pure 1/1 lings.
also, as i already stated, terran always strat cleaning a fews second before upgrades are done cause zerg is not supposed to engaged off creep.
If Terran doesn't wait the Medivacs to start clearing creep, he's in danger of losing everything to a massive surround; having CS changes nothing to that. Besides, if you want to clear creep, you have to be on creep by force with some of your units.
30 secondes will have too much impact (1 inject or warp cycle lost) and terran will be able too refine some nasty BO and if u do the same in PvT like u mentionned, maru will hit 75% winrate vs toss
Maru's supposed winrate in a better state of TvP isn't an argument.
a nerf of the overcharge is not an option cause of PvP.
Quality of life in a mirror matters less than balance in a non-mirror.
i prefer a redesign of the raven when pdd(cancels overcharge) will be available easier, iow i want to do something vs enemy units, i build enemy unit's counter, like siege vs immortal^^)
This is (the promise of) a simple balance patch, no redesign will happen. People talk about promoting Terran tier3 and all, but I think they miss the point. Fixing what already exists is way more urgent than introducing Thors or Battlecruisers in TvP (something much more complicated to do than "simple buffs"; plus bio can be given options in lategame without having recourse to those units).
Nerfing mutas is not a an option cause PvZ . To have a real unit vs mutas for terran is a good think :p(bye bye thor )
I am no ZvP expert but I don't think muta regen is as critical in this match-up as in ZvT. Besides, Phoenixes can be changed accordingly.
On July 05 2014 03:24 Xequecal wrote: Personally, I think that instead of the 4 missiles + splash, they should give Thors the anti-air attack that Steam Tanks in WC3 had. Instead of firing four 6+6 light damage missiles with splash, they should instead fire a (no splash) 6+6 missile at every air unit within 11 range, no matter how many there are.
With that change, you could hold off mass mutas with 1 or 2 Thors and mass repair, although it would cost you a lot of SCVs to do so and you wouldn't actually kill any of the mutas.
With that change, Zerg would above all lose every fight past 15 minutes because Terran would simply wait 3-4 Thors and systematically slaughter mutas if they dared to engage with the rest of the army.
On July 05 2014 04:02 cheekymonkey wrote: the stim research buff is a clever suggestion. It would certainly do wonders to the TvP matchup, and wouldn't hurt in TvZ too bad I think.
actually it does cuz u can squeeze in stim for marine-hellbat medivac timing.
If you refer to Reaper reactor CC depot fact gas port, nope. You just don't have enough resources; even when cutting SCVs you can barely produce constantly. Besides, even with 140 sec, stim would still come later than the Armory, and you want to hit at the fastest possible timing so Zerg doesn't have the time to mass enough defence to nip your push in the bud. Furthermore, stim would hardly come in handy since you have 2-6 Marines at most.
At any rate, I don't see the problem if the stim buff revives a bit the 2-bases timing into third model (and I have serious doubts about that). Currently there are only Hellbat timings from the last patch + the cheesy 2 fact BFH and none of them is a particular threat to 3 hatch builds with an over sac + Roach Warren in the sixth minute.
On July 05 2014 04:57 Mojito99 wrote: @ DwF
with your extensive research, would you say that part of the reason the MU winrates develop this way is that Terran playstyles have adapted and innovated little (for whatever reason) and hence the only real improvement area are mechanics which obviously hit a skill ceiling as compared to tactical play, strategies, getting better at defending T pressures?
Your question is very interesting and would actually deserve an in-depth answer, but I'm out of fuel right now so I'll make it short and just give my conclusion in a brute way.
Terrans did innovate a lot, but they have only limited possibilities because the race still operates on the linear SC1 production/reinforcement model + the tempo-based nature of bio play forces any build to use a generic mould (pressuring at key points to prevent your opponent from unlocking the full potential of his superior production stemming from the SC2 macro mechanics). As such, Terran's bio play is forced to use predictable patterns of aggression which naturally weaken themselves over time by dint of repetition: the defender adapts, adjusts his own builds and game plans and eventually finds a way to have the best odds at reaching his superior lategame. If the game is balanced, this process takes a very long time and may in fact never come to an end. If the game is disrupted by some critical early or midgame change (Queen patch, MSC + removal of Hellbat drops + patch 2.0.12), Terran collapses in a matter of weeks. Past some point, as you point out, mechanics can no longer compensate (enough) this structural disadvantage because not even the four-armed Koreans can indeed handle the inhuman requirements of a constant initiative to pull apart their opponents, so they crash against the brick wall.
On July 04 2014 20:02 Wombat_NI wrote: It makes too much sense to be implemented and having a specific underlying rationale with relation to timings won't make a difference anyway.
It doesn't really make sense that stim research timing from an era of XNC is still the case given the exponential increase in the size of maps.
That argument justifies a re-evaluation of everything for every map that gets ever made. Zergling speed, was implemented for XNC type maps Roach speed, implemented for XNC type maps. etc etc etc.
The argument that a faster stim helps with blink is imo the main reason why this buff makes sense. I guess more pressure for the Terran might also be OK, but for that there are a thousand possibilities, nothing that would ask for stim in particular to be buffed.
Imo, when too big maps break things, we should rather ask why we make so big maps. Like, there is a map forum on TL. We just had a mapcontest finishing. There are always mappers around looking for input. Everybody can participate themselves there. The next mappool will consist exclusively of community/mapper made maps, nothing by blizzard (as far as I remember) and in the current one there are only 2blizzard maps. --> just make smaller maps, if bigger maps are broken
Yes!!! A good route for the comunity to balance the game is through mapmaking! Lets send the proper feedback for the mapmakers, this season map pool is already more balanced than season 1 and 2 (or at least it looks like). Yes, in the end blizzard chooses the maps, but i suppose they won't do it before reading some well made map analysis. Maps affect balance a lot, so much that maps with a good foward third, good space for drops, no immensely open spaces, no space to blink in the main, no easy bases alway from the opponent and smaller rush distance might be ok for terran with no changes in any units. When was the last time somebody said "this map is good for terran"?
One of the bigger problems the mapmaking community has been faced with is creating unique maps under such restrictive requirements to meet basic quality of balance. Terrain design is at the core of what we do and already we're shut down from interesting terrain layouts seen on maps like Heavy Rain. Heck, even Cloud Kingdom would be considered severely imbalanced with the current design of the game with the way blink all-ins now work (thanks MSC!) and how many HotS unit buffs were done under the expectation of larger and more open maps.
It's why now you often see big maps with only wide attack paths and/or open spaces. The game design requires it otherwise things get really silly, and then blame is placed on the mapmaker for creating a "bad/imbalanced" map.
I think first and foremost we need to revert oracle speed. It made no sense to begin with and now it just makes terran's life more difficult going into the mid game.
. His attack is technically a Stim/CS/+1 timing, i.e. he's supposed to wait all of that before attacking.
so +1 (160 secondes ), then stim (140 secondes), they will finish approximatly at the same time. Only CS missing but hellbat/ maraud are good tanking unit so u dont really need it. And if attack quicker, zerg'll have less gas too.
You can't say "just add a 150/100 building" when the build is already so tight.
still at 9.3, polt has enought gaz, only mineral is low but u have too make choices. What is better ? prod 1 maraud or been able to morph 8 hellion into hellbat ? seems to me like it's the same deal as do you want cloack on ur banshee or not.
If Terran doesn't wait the Medivacs to start clearing creep, he's in danger of losing everything to a massive surround
it's a timing push. Like every push, his success will greatly be decided by your micro. 9.15 will be the start of poking creep if stim = 140 secondes, banneling - roach is expensive.
Maru's supposed winrate in a better state of TvP isn't an argument.
indeed but when see maru's micro vs gate/colo at b3 toss timing, it's insane. if he does that early during game, it'll be epic^^
Quality of life in a mirror matters less than balance in a non-mirror. This is (the promise of) a simple balance patch, no redesign will happen. People talk about promoting Terran tier3 and all, but I think they miss the point. Fixing what already exists is way more urgent than introducing Thors or Battlecruisers in TvP (something much more complicated to do than "simple buffs"; plus bio can be given options in lategame without having recourse to those units).
indeed better to fix nmirror but u cant lock a mirror to fix this issue because, in my opinion, i dont think bio, average dps good mobility, should be able to be equal to a 2base protoss army. Also i dont believe in nerfs since sc2 came out, better to help terran to deal with this spell.
I am no ZvP expert but I don't think muta regen is as critical in this match-up as in ZvT.
it's not if u go full air mode. But if u decide to brain ur opponent with 10 mutas in order to force archons/stalker/phoenix and kill some probes, gain more map control(4spot map), more cost effective u can be, the better.
At any rate, I don't see the problem if the stim buff revives a bit the 2-bases timing into third model
Do you know someone with editing skills if we can create this kind of test map, i will gladly try to find top master/GM to find right variations of stim buff
On July 04 2014 20:02 Wombat_NI wrote: It makes too much sense to be implemented and having a specific underlying rationale with relation to timings won't make a difference anyway.
It doesn't really make sense that stim research timing from an era of XNC is still the case given the exponential increase in the size of maps.
That argument justifies a re-evaluation of everything for every map that gets ever made. Zergling speed, was implemented for XNC type maps Roach speed, implemented for XNC type maps. etc etc etc.
The argument that a faster stim helps with blink is imo the main reason why this buff makes sense. I guess more pressure for the Terran might also be OK, but for that there are a thousand possibilities, nothing that would ask for stim in particular to be buffed.
Imo, when too big maps break things, we should rather ask why we make so big maps. Like, there is a map forum on TL. We just had a mapcontest finishing. There are always mappers around looking for input. Everybody can participate themselves there. The next mappool will consist exclusively of community/mapper made maps, nothing by blizzard (as far as I remember) and in the current one there are only 2blizzard maps. --> just make smaller maps, if bigger maps are broken
Yes!!! A good route for the comunity to balance the game is through mapmaking! Lets send the proper feedback for the mapmakers, this season map pool is already more balanced than season 1 and 2 (or at least it looks like). Yes, in the end blizzard chooses the maps, but i suppose they won't do it before reading some well made map analysis. Maps affect balance a lot, so much that maps with a good foward third, good space for drops, no immensely open spaces, no space to blink in the main, no easy bases alway from the opponent and smaller rush distance might be ok for terran with no changes in any units. When was the last time somebody said "this map is good for terran"?
One of the bigger problems the mapmaking community has been faced with is creating unique maps under such restrictive requirements to meet basic quality of balance. Terrain design is at the core of what we do and already we're shut down from interesting terrain layouts seen on maps like Heavy Rain. Heck, even Cloud Kingdom would be considered severely imbalanced with the current design of the game with the way blink all-ins now work (thanks MSC!) and how many HotS unit buffs were done under the expectation of larger and more open maps.
It's why now you often see big maps with only wide attack paths and/or open spaces. The game design requires it otherwise things get really silly, and then blame is placed on the mapmaker for creating a "bad/imbalanced" map.
Point taken. The game design directs the map design towards maps that are worse for terran, compared to WoL. That means terran must be considerably stronger to compensate for the new map pattern, and that the previous maps cannot come back after the terran buff, otherwise terran becomes op.
I think it would be very interesting to have changes that bring new gameplay styles, it would add diversity to builds and games. Terran doesn't seem to have changed substantially since WoL.
Mech needs to be fixed. Its nice that tanks no longer need an upgrade to siege. It would be interesting if we saw some changes where tanks could move and attack simultaneously like in SC1 and like the diamondback. It would also be interesting to have an upgrade in the tech lab that would allow tanks to not take concussive damage. It would make them stronger against marauders and immortals, but they'd still be weak to air.
That is one major thing also, if they keep making new maps so often it's really really hard to balance out units so that they would feel balanced on any map.
Immortals should lose the Hardened shield ability. It won't affect PvZ at all, while making Tanks/Thors somewhat viable in PvT. Maybe increase the shield from 100 to 150 or something to make up for the loss. Non-spellcasters(Banshee and BC) should not be targeted by feedback as well, imo feedback was not designed to kill fighting units.
On July 05 2014 11:51 FreeZEternal wrote: I am surprised how many are complaining about oracles in pvt. How many games do P go oracles in pvt? I thought most P were going robo in pvt?
It's more just that they are annoying as shit in that a seemingly tight defence can still result in a few dead scv's here and there whilst the oracle takes mere shield damage and flies off scot-free no doubt cackling like an 8 year old. Also the really good ones who know how to keep one alive for like 20 mins constantly darting into your base and cancelling production really get on our collective Terran tits.
EDIT, and that's just a merely ok oracle. A bloody great oracle wins the game by murdering all the marines and then the scvs then does a /dance. And even if the oracle dies without killing anything thanks to the MSC the Protoss can still play a mostly normal game it's not so bad. Conversely if we were to open with a casual cloakbanshee and it gets shut down the Terran's in a very bad spot indeed because we need more then 3 units to defend shit. It's these sorts of assymmetries that make playing TvP feel fucking horrible. They've got a thousand fun things and we have marauders and medivacs and whilst those two make for an extremely effective combination it'd be nice to make use of all those other units we could make and not worry about shit.
On July 05 2014 11:51 FreeZEternal wrote: I am surprised how many are complaining about oracles in pvt. How many games do P go oracles in pvt? I thought most P were going robo in pvt?
probably because the possiblity of oracles means that you have to have a turret or 6 marines in each mineral line by the timing of a proxy oracles ( or a widow mine i suppose), and even then they tend to get at least a few scvs :L kinda pidgeonholds builds somewhat
On July 02 2014 21:42 TheDwf wrote: Hmm, weird. I could have sworn there were no plans for extra changes in the future. Did someone write a 40 pages essay about Terran woes or what?
Medivac Medivac harass has been getting weaker since the beginning of HotS due to players improving at defending against them. If we increase the strength of Medivacs, we’d not only help out Terran on both matchups, but also help provide even more action-packed games to watch. We wonder if buffing the unload speed or increasing the duration of the speed boost slightly would help in a positive way.
I understand your intention but no. The Medivac is already the best unit in the Terran arsenal, and for that sole reason you should not further buff it.
You also have to consider that ironically, the race that would suffer the most from this change would be… Terran. Doomdrops are already dominant in Marines/Tanks mirrors, and with that kind of change odds are such mirrors would be further dumbed down to a volatile game of "who first loads and hides 6 full Medivacs, boost into production, gg".
There are other ways to reach your goal of a more dynamic midgame (in TvP) without changing the Medivac. More below.
Widow Mine Widow Mines are quite core in both TvP and TvZ. They’re also one of the most exciting units to watch and create lots of diverse moments depending on the players’ interaction with them within each engagement. We’re currently considering a slight increase to the splash radius of Widow Mines, which we believe could be a good direction to explore.
Good. Restoring some strength to the Mine is absolutely crucial for bio play in TvZ. As for the way you want to do it… Assuming you intend to create a fourth AoE zone between 1.75 and 2 radius, the damage in the second and third zone should also be increased from 20/10 to 30/15. The 30 part in the second zone is particularly critical to one-shot banes. See below the 3 states of the Mine (at release; post-nerf; after the proposed buff) vs Zerg, respectively in the areas 0 – 1.25 | 1.25 – 1.50 | 1.50 – 1.75 | 1.75 – 2.
Note that if you want to leave TvP untouched, you can play upon the Drilling Claws variable (searched in TvZ, but not in TvP), i.e. make it so Drilling Claws unlocks the buff, partially or totally. Bonus damage to shields can, in the same way, be tweaked accordingly so the total damage remains unchanged. It would be unwise to discourage Protoss players from playing Templars, a style superior to Colossus play in every way for the quality of games (amount of action, micro, multitasking). I don't believe Mines killed the Templar style, so time should be left for Templar play to make its return.
First, there are 2 ways to address a given problem; in absolute or relatively. Example: the Tempest is too strong in lategame PvT. There are 3 options to deal with this:
1. Weakening the stats (cost, supply, range, damage, armor, etc.) of the Tempest itself. 2. Making it so Protoss have a harder time reaching Tempests (i.e. give Terran extra ways to slow their development towards lategame), or improving units used against the Tempest. 3. Any combination of the above.
With this in mind, I advocate the following changes to balance bio play:
Stim Research time decreased to 140 seconds, down from 170.
Target: general. Reverting the stim nerf would yield numerous benefits, fixing a lot of the current Terran issues and opening a few options in the early game:
1. Terran would have stim earlier to defend numerous Protoss timings (and a few Zerg ones) in the early game. In particular, bear in mind there are 2 particularly good Blink maps in the ones you introduced for the next season. 2. In TvP, Terran would threaten an earlier stim timing, forcing Protoss macro builds to concede more units in the early game and thus slowing the speed at which they tech. In return, this means there would be more room for drop play in midgame because Protoss would not enter the phase with as many resources available and as much tech advance to install the perfect anti-drop system (Observers, early Blink, energy on MSC, etc.). 3. In TvZ, an earlier stim timing (and by repercussion an earlier CS timing) would boost a bit the "2-bases timing into third" openings, which are currently mostly dead because they lack power against 3 hatch builds.
To revert this nerf, you don't even need to swallow your pride since the change occurred almost 3 years ago in a completely different environment. Without reverting the stim nerf, a Photon Overcharge nerf would be needed to balance TvP, i.e. a change with a larger impact in PvZ and PvP. If you have only one change to do for the sake of TvP, it's 100% this one. I'm lazy, so I will just sum up in 5 words what I could say in 5 pages:
PLEASE REVERT THE STIM NERF.
Mutalisk Health rate regeneration decreased to 1 HP every 2 seconds, down from 1 HP/second. [For reference, other Zerg units regenerate at the rate of 1 HP every 3.7 seconds.]
Target: TvZ Toning down muta regen is necessary, regardless of the Mine buff you use. Even with the old Mines it would have been needed. Terran's only answer to mass mutas is to limit the damage, drive them away and bandage their wounds. If mutas heal too fast, the infernal cycle never ceases (preventing the recovery phase) and Terran cannot fight back for the initiative. With a slower healing rate:
1. Terran would have a longer window of tranquillity after the passing of the storm and could start counter-attacking earlier to capitalize on wounded mutas. 2. Mutalisk harassment would come with an adjusted risk/reward ratio. Thor volleys and Mine hits would matter more. 3. More Mutalisks would also fall throughout the game, resulting in an inferior accumulation. 4. Sloppiness would be punished (the current regeneration rate is too forgiving). 5. The days of constant battles with Zerg being on the verge of losing at each wave are long gone anyway.
The Phoenix (range, either native or the bonus given by the Fleet beacon upgrade) and the Spore (bonus damage to bio) can be adjusted accordingly to deal with the impact on ZvP and ZvZ.
On top of a Mine buff in TvZ, those two are absolutely critical.
Some extra ideas, with less impact, to help in various domains:
Tactical Nuke Cost changed from 100/100 to 50/150. Damage to buildings increased to 750 | 500 | 250, up from 500 | 250 | 125.
Target: lategame TvP, lategame TvZ. Nukes are extinct in TvZ and underused in lategame TvP because of their cost. Since bio play commonly floats gas if you take your 8 gas, what better way to spend the resource? Damage to buildings is increased so Terrans have a better way to cripple Zerg and Protoss' economy in lategame.
Effects: increases the Reaper's movement speed to 4.25 and restores their WoL attack. [WoL attack: same as the current one except +5 bonus damage to Light; secondary attack against buildings: 30 (+3). Both range 5.]
Target: lategame TvP, lategame TvZ. Fairly straighforward. As of now, the Reaper has absolutely no use past early game. With this upgrade, it could be used in lategame, particularly in TvP to defend Zealots/DTs harassement and pressure remote expands without committing Medivacs.
Ghost Cost changed from 200/100 to 175/100. Snipe damage changed from 25 (+25 to Psionic) to 45 (-10 to Massive).
Target: lategame TvP, lategame TvZ. Part of the lategame TvP woes is that Ghosts are extremely expensive; this would help a little without impacting too much the unknown that is currently Templar play in midgame. Snipe was overnerfed: an overtrained elite marksman cannot even one-shot a Zergling anymore, really?
Creep Tumor Sight range decreased to 9, down from 11.
Target: TvZ. Creep passively provides too much vision, especially by lategame. Less vision on the outskirts means increased possibilities for drop to travel unseen, and overall less map control.
Tempest Bonus damage to Massive targets decreased to 20 (+0), down from 50 (+2).
Target: lategame TvP. Battlecruisers die to Tempests in 7 shots from 15 range. Fully upgraded Tempests deal 95 damage to Massive air targets. 95, seriously? I am no ZvP expert but I am sure this is overkill against broods. Colossi are part of a mirror so it doesn't matter. Battlecruisers were already extremely rare, no reason to completely kill off the option with Tempests.
Now, for the question of mech in TvP. I don't have energy left to write an essay, but something drastic should be tested (with real games between pros) if you finally want to see mech play in TvP:
Siege Tank +20 damage to Massive targets in Siege Mode.
Siege Tanks underperfom against Archons. Mech cannot be viable in TvP if Ghosts are necessary to vaguely compete. The mech path has to be autonomous.
This would increase the performance of Tanks in Siege Mode against: Archons (much needed), Colossi (could do with 1-2 less shots), Thors (irrelevant) and Ultralisks (somewhat needed in the open).
Immortal Hardened shields has been reworked: 1. Attacks dealing from 10 to 20 damage are still reduced to 10 (unchanged). 2. Attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of being reduced to 10.
The reasoning is simple: Immortals dramatically overperform against Tanks.
Impact on units affected in non-mirror:
The impact on targeted units would be as follows:
With +0 attack Tanks Archon: from 11 to 7. Colossus: from 8 to 6. Immortal: from 14 to 9. (Ultralisk: from 11 to 8.)
With +3 attack Tanks Archon: from 9 to 6. Colossus: from 6 to 5. Immortal: from 14 to 7. (Ultralisk: from 9 to 7.)
Consequences 1. When nearing max, mech ground armies would be better than Protoss ground armies, which respects the logic of the disparity in mobility/reproducibility between the two sides. This would also force Protoss to actively harass/cripple Terran, i.e. the reverse situation with bio play. 2. The air transitions, problematic as of now, mostly rely on the superior Protoss midgame against mech, and by repercussion would be affected by those changes: teching Tempests would not be a formality if you actually had to fear a huge Tank push.
Once again, these changes should be tested on a specific map with some games between Terran and Protoss pros.
@TheDwf Love your analysis, man. Which changes do you consider the most important? Would it be the mines/stim/mutas trifecta?
Yes, they are core changes needed to fix bio play in TvZ and TvP.
That seems mostly Zerg related. Do you think its TvZ that needs the most help?
Bio in TvZ needs as much help, yes; Terrans in Korea mostly win thanks to 2 rax, mech and Hellbat timings. This is why winrates are not 35:65 like in TvP, but the fact many Korean Terrans do their best to stay away from triple OC bio macro games scenarii is a pretty telling tale in itself. If you were to run tests for normal 4M vs lings/banes/mutas games, you could expect similarly depressing results.
The two other things concern TvZ, but the stim change is aimed at TvP. Currently, Protoss has one Overcharge at 5'30 and another at 8'30, i.e. exactly around the time stim completes at the earliest after fast expands. The threat of an earlier stim timing before the second Overcharge would force Protoss to build units (while currently they can get away with 3 Stalkers and have one Sentry ready for 8'30), which would weaken their builds (slow the amount of tech they get) and thus open more room for Terran aggression in midgame. I don't know if this would be sufficient to resynchronize the development of both races but this is the best chance without impacting too much the other match-ups. The only other solution I see is a Photon Overcharge nerf to 9 range, 45-50 seconds and +20 damage to Shieds.
On top of that, a 140 seconds stim would weaken countless timings/all-ins because they would have a reduced window. An immortal bust is less hot if you have only 30 seconds instead of a whole minute before stim completes. The snowbally nature of Blink attacks would not be as deadly if the defender had stim at the first wave. Even things like DT play would be riskier if Terran could threaten an earlier stim timing to retaliate.
In TvZ, the stim buff would have limited impact because:
1. Triple OC bio builds already have 1/1, stim and CS by the time Medivacs travel from the Starport to the edge of the creep. 2. Unless I forgot something, there are currently no viable 2-bases timing hitting right when stim finishes. Things like 2 fact BFH or Hellbats timings don't even need stim at all. 3 rax Hellions Medivacs timings hit later than stim and need to hit before stim + CS would complete even with the new stim research time. 3. The model of a stimmed bio timing without Medivacs doesn't work because Queens + Speedlings can deal with it easily, plus playing without Hellions is always coinflippy.
I personally think the tank change you suggest is the most interesting one, maybe not the most needed tho. It is the only one that I think buffs unorthodox/late game oriented play for Terran. I'd be in favor of having to research Siege Mode if this buffed Siege shots too much (I don't think it does, but still).
Yes, it's a "diversity" change, but this time with the advantage it wouldn't slaughter the other option. It would need extensive testing since it would basically result in a "fourth match-up," but Protoss would benefit a lot from a viable mech because they would have the opportunity to fully play the "bio role".
I'm on EU for terran, but I just played a game that was disgustingly brutal on the zerg. He opens hatch first on that small map with two golds that's north and south positions. I open 3 rax early pressure with fast CC and force a bunch of lings from him that he was getting speed for, he lost a queen and some drones and lings, then counters and eats a few of my scvs but not much because of decent sim city. Get walls up and some rines with another CC and 4 factories, pump a few widow mines for defense and then swap 3 factories to reactor. Suddenly his three base ling bling roach style is getting absolutely wrecked by mines swarming all over him and planting in his third when a distracting wave of disposable marines comes in the front door. He counters again and this time is hit by tanks and marine and WMs at the front door of my base while he's still losing drones and larvae to widow mines.
By the end of the game he had a fourth and had a mineral/gas float of 4/3k respectively because he kept having to rebuild his basic army of ling bling roach in a desperate attempt to fend off the swarming hordes of marine widow mine tank battlecruiser. Game ends around 20 minutes with 4 reactor factories, 16 reactor raxes and three terran bases saturated with zerg constantly losing units.
Widow mines can be terrible if you aren't upgrading the digging claws and the armor for vehicles. The merging of land and air based mech units' upgrades, the fact Widow Mine relies on getting +armor for mech to live longer in the face of enemy upgrades, these all seem like things pushing Terran to research all upgrades whether going mainly bio or mech, because bio works a lot better with mines as we've seen, yet getting those armor upgrades for mines is not something to neglect if the game goes on too long. At the same time by protecting mines, you're opening up mech possibilities. If you go pure mech then the upgrade is a non-issue, but people seem to feel zerg against mech can contain and starve before spamming them to death with Swarm hosts (although they coincidentally share 3 supply similarly to banshees).
The only thing that might be a decent change for mines that's a buff without upping the radius is removing the light tag. If you need more damage radius, you aren't using enough mines or spreading them properly. That can be fixed with skill, but vaporizing to hellbats or bling can't.
Whether bio or mech, WM and hellbats need the vehicle armor upgrades. Terrans maybe have been too greedy about wanting to cut out getting relatively cheap upgrades in mech when going mainly bio and then getting stomped for not having a proper response that can survive in later timings in the game.
On July 05 2014 08:44 TheDwf wrote: Terrans did innovate a lot, but they have only limited possibilities because the race still operates on the linear SC1 production/reinforcement model + the tempo-based nature of bio play forces any build to use a generic mould (pressuring at key points to prevent your opponent from unlocking the full potential of his superior production stemming from the SC2 macro mechanics). As such, Terran's bio play is forced to use predictable patterns of aggression which naturally weaken themselves over time by dint of repetition: the defender adapts, adjusts his own builds and game plans and eventually finds a way to have the best odds at reaching his superior lategame. If the game is balanced, this process takes a very long time and may in fact never come to an end. If the game is disrupted by some critical early or midgame change (Queen patch, MSC + removal of Hellbat drops + patch 2.0.12), Terran collapses in a matter of weeks. Past some point, as you point out, mechanics can no longer compensate (enough) this structural disadvantage because not even the four-armed Koreans can indeed handle the inhuman requirements of a constant initiative to pull apart their opponents, so they crash against the brick wall.
QFT
Terran players already need better mechanics vs an equally ranked player and still you have to face lots of frustration moments. Lategame TvP, Lategame TvZ. You often have to rely on mistakes by the opponent in order to have a chance of winning. It's because so many changes in the past made the transition into lategame so much easier for Protoss and Zerg compared to Terran.
On July 05 2014 08:44 TheDwf wrote: Terrans did innovate a lot, but they have only limited possibilities because the race still operates on the linear SC1 production/reinforcement model + the tempo-based nature of bio play forces any build to use a generic mould (pressuring at key points to prevent your opponent from unlocking the full potential of his superior production stemming from the SC2 macro mechanics). As such, Terran's bio play is forced to use predictable patterns of aggression which naturally weaken themselves over time by dint of repetition: the defender adapts, adjusts his own builds and game plans and eventually finds a way to have the best odds at reaching his superior lategame. If the game is balanced, this process takes a very long time and may in fact never come to an end. If the game is disrupted by some critical early or midgame change (Queen patch, MSC + removal of Hellbat drops + patch 2.0.12), Terran collapses in a matter of weeks. Past some point, as you point out, mechanics can no longer compensate (enough) this structural disadvantage because not even the four-armed Koreans can indeed handle the inhuman requirements of a constant initiative to pull apart their opponents, so they crash against the brick wall.
QFT
Terran players already need better mechanics vs an equally ranked player and still you have to face lots of frustration moments. Lategame TvP, Lategame TvZ. You often have to rely on mistakes by the opponent in order to have a chance of winning. It's because so many changes in the past made the transition into lategame so much easier for Protoss and Zerg compared to Terran.
I consistently find myself beating out Z's and P's with 110-160 apms with 70-80 apm as terran. Quality of decision and tactical planning cover a lot of ground between mechanics and macro.. I've race switched to Terran from Zerg so don't sue me for the low APM. Still learning to integrate the multiple buildings for units style into part of gameplay.
On July 05 2014 08:44 TheDwf wrote: Terrans did innovate a lot, but they have only limited possibilities because the race still operates on the linear SC1 production/reinforcement model + the tempo-based nature of bio play forces any build to use a generic mould (pressuring at key points to prevent your opponent from unlocking the full potential of his superior production stemming from the SC2 macro mechanics). As such, Terran's bio play is forced to use predictable patterns of aggression which naturally weaken themselves over time by dint of repetition: the defender adapts, adjusts his own builds and game plans and eventually finds a way to have the best odds at reaching his superior lategame. If the game is balanced, this process takes a very long time and may in fact never come to an end. If the game is disrupted by some critical early or midgame change (Queen patch, MSC + removal of Hellbat drops + patch 2.0.12), Terran collapses in a matter of weeks. Past some point, as you point out, mechanics can no longer compensate (enough) this structural disadvantage because not even the four-armed Koreans can indeed handle the inhuman requirements of a constant initiative to pull apart their opponents, so they crash against the brick wall.
QFT
Terran players already need better mechanics vs an equally ranked player and still you have to face lots of frustration moments. Lategame TvP, Lategame TvZ. You often have to rely on mistakes by the opponent in order to have a chance of winning. It's because so many changes in the past made the transition into lategame so much easier for Protoss and Zerg compared to Terran.
I consistently find myself beating out Z's and P's with 110-160 apms with 70-80 apm as terran. Quality of decision and tactical planning cover a lot of ground between mechanics and macro.. I've race switched to Terran from Zerg so don't sue me for the low APM. Still learning to integrate the multiple buildings for units style into part of gameplay.
Keep in mind that mechanics are not the same as APM. An example: Zerg naturally has higher apm than other races due to the reproduction capabilities of very low cost units en mass as well as "filler" actions, such as creep spreading.
I've noticed the majority of TL, the Chinese and Korean communities have been crying out for a Terran late game fix and a better look at improving their factory options. What i don't get is, why haven't they taken this into account? Terran does not need further boosts in mid game strength, that is what the Hellbat patch already addressed. What they need is to be able to go toe to toe with Z and P in the late game. They lack solid options and are far too predictable in late game. This issue is so obvious, yet completely overlooked by David Kim. Someone can't be that blind right?
On July 05 2014 11:51 FreeZEternal wrote: I am surprised how many are complaining about oracles in pvt. How many games do P go oracles in pvt? I thought most P were going robo in pvt?
It's more just that they are annoying as shit in that a seemingly tight defence can still result in a few dead scv's here and there whilst the oracle takes mere shield damage and flies off scot-free no doubt cackling like an 8 year old. Also the really good ones who know how to keep one alive for like 20 mins constantly darting into your base and cancelling production really get on our collective Terran tits.
EDIT, and that's just a merely ok oracle. A bloody great oracle wins the game by murdering all the marines and then the scvs then does a /dance. And even if the oracle dies without killing anything thanks to the MSC the Protoss can still play a mostly normal game it's not so bad. Conversely if we were to open with a casual cloakbanshee and it gets shut down the Terran's in a very bad spot indeed because we need more then 3 units to defend shit. It's these sorts of assymmetries that make playing TvP feel fucking horrible. They've got a thousand fun things and we have marauders and medivacs and whilst those two make for an extremely effective combination it'd be nice to make use of all those other units we could make and not worry about shit.
No offense sir (I know you're pro and I respect that), but that "point of view" is so horribly biased.. I'm no pro and I suck and even I know that Oracles aren't the problem.. Basically all you need is one Turret and one WM that's all..
The rest of things you already have anyway, don't you.. ?, so you basically need to defend a 300/300 investment with a 175/25 investment in total..
The problem Terran has is that they can't take initiative back in their hands once Protoss is at their doorstep though.. But let's be honest - that's what DK wanted for Terran as a race to be (at least in TvP) - bunch of annoying back-stabbers, thus "nurturing" that Starwars' "Empire vs Rebelions" image of the matchup overall..
And Thank God finally Protoss finally got a tech in that Oracle which is one of the kind - a tech unit that doesn't require to really commit investments to.. Everything else was "I gotta make at least 5 of these in order to make my investment pay off".. Also the DTs got not as much comittal, but that's just another..
So to recap - it's Terran that's a bad race, not Protoss.. Terran should have a way to "break"/"apart" the deathball other than "cool to watch" drops, and our game God Creator doesn't "admit" that one.. That's THE problem
And Thank God finally Protoss finally got a tech in that Oracle which is one of the kind - a tech unit that doesn't require to really commit investments to.. Everything else was "I gotta make at least 5 of these in order to make my investment pay off".. Also the DTs got not as much comittal, but that's just another..
So to recap - it's Terran that's a bad race, not Protoss.. Terran should have a way to "break"/"apart" the deathball other than "cool to watch" drops, and our game God Creator doesn't "admit" that one.. That's THE problem
Eh the problem here isn't that protoss has a harass-based air unit. The problem is that this air unit has the worst design possible. No amount of micro can save 5 Marines from dying to an Oracle, and no amount of micro can make an Oracle kill 6 Marines. All it does is force terran to play extremely conservative as it is extremely good at punishing nonconsersavtive play regardless of the level of excution. That's not what the majority of Sc2 players want with their units. They want to have units that are highly microable and creates interactions where the enemy can remicro against it + without restricting the strategies of the enemy player either.
Making the Oracle microable isn't actually that hard. Editorwise, one needs to make the following changes;
- Increase range from 4 to 6. - Put acceleration at max. - Damage point at 0. - Increase attack cooldown (reduce attack speed) by like 50%. Perhaps increase damage vs armored here as well. There is no reason for why it should deal over twice the amount of damage vs light than to armored.
This will give you a unit that can actually do a really nice moving shot (comparable to BW Mutalisks vs Marines). Oracle can no longer move in, and kill 5 Marines. Instead it need to attack, move back, attack move back. This proces gives the terran player the option to pull back the injured Marines. If on the other hand the terran player isn't micro'ing but the protoss player is, the Oracle isn't as easily shut down by critical mass as it currently is. Thus, this type of unit design actually rewards micro for both races without restricing the terran player to such a significant degree.
EPT
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