EPTTerran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 54
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QCD
Suriname81 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On July 06 2014 01:23 QCD wrote: I'd like to see the barracks return to its original build time. No kidding. It used to feel so slick when my 12 rax would finish EXACTLY at the same time as my 15th SCV, and I could start a marine and an orbital at the EXACT same time. That 5 second build time increase serves no purpose other than to be annoying for the Terran player. I can see it having made a difference on small maps, but again, we're on bigger maps now where 11/11 rax isn't hardly a thing anymore. 11/11 could even use a buff, as it's Terran's only aggressive option anymore. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Just makes it that little bit easier to avoid supply block (and wall off). Build time is doubly annoying for Terran as it also means SCVs not mining. | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
On July 05 2014 20:54 Aocowns wrote: I think he's just frustrated because playing against terran at diamond-low/mid master is legitimately cancer inducing I often feel the same way myself, only I want to rape David Kim and Dustin Browder with tire irons and bricks respectively, not myself. Admittedly, it wouldn't make much of a difference whether I raped myself or DK/DB, because playing against terran already feels like being raped with a tire iron User was temp banned for this post. I agree the are pretty dumb. Let's not forget that the Browder conceptualized the colossus as a raider unit that would climb cliffs to get into mineral lines to do damage to workers. He said this on a recorded video back in 2010-11. It's not used that way at all, but he doesn't understand Starcraft whatsoever. Never has. On July 06 2014 00:21 Dangermousecatdog wrote: lol, why are some people saying bio is not exciting to watch or play? It is the most exciting style of play in HotS and in WoL. Mech is both boring to play and watch. The only reason you want seige tanks to be buffed is so that you can 1A to victory. Look at proleague. Mech is boring and powerful enough as it is. In the end, terran doesn't need a buff, Protoss just needs to not be able to deny all Terran scouting and aggression for 10 minutes that isn't a scan. Mech can be boring to watch and/or play if the intricacies of it are lost. When you have equal forces only indirect or tactical behavior can win the game, in other words, the person who makes good decisions regarding defending themselves, using terrain, attacking enemy weak points, and so on. On July 06 2014 00:15 MysticaL wrote: I hate this idea of "we need to only buff things, never nerf anything" It's very naive to think everything is OK as is, and just buff the underdogs. Some things need to be straight up nerfed. - No one cares about medivac and widow mine buffs when Terran is not able to scout Protoss properly early game - No one cares about medivac speed when P just drop a nexus cannon, you gain like +10 seconds on your harass, so what? Nexus cannon is ready anyway These are the core issues with Terran, and these buffs are not doing ANYTHING to address them. They literally make no difference other than gimmicky bonuses like being able to harass 10 seconds faster, and getting off unreliable widow mine hits. All it does is change timings slightly, which people easily adjust to. To address the core issues, you need to improve Terran scouting and Terran late game. These changes do nothing for that, they just further improve T's midgame and the early medivac timings, which we know are already strong. Really? It's not surprising at all to me to see why SC2 viewership numbers are becoming the way they are. David Kim wants to cater for more exciting games, watching PRO GAMERS turtle to 200/200 and attack is not exciting at all to watch. Sorry Like this guy said. Runbys on mech in TvZ are the attacking of weak points that is tactical and good decision making on Z or bad decision making on T which yields a game to the better strategist. Unfortunately, the last sentence conflicts with the first few. If DK wants things not to end up in turtle to max and deathball vs deathball, then giving P nexus cannon was absolutely wrong for TvP. It might have been probable that the intent was for protoss to feel safe having an "oh crap I'm in trouble and need to defend" easy button at their fingertips so that they would be more aggressive and attack more often instead of turtling themselves until they have the deathball. Unfortunately, the way they implemented this effectively encourages turtle behavior and immunity to early-mid game harass. I'm thinking it was so protoss could cut out photon spam from their builds in base around nexuses, to go for earlier pushes, but that isn't what happened. Overcharge needs to be locked away in midgame somehow, like requiring the building of templar archives or something. | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
On July 06 2014 02:44 Socup wrote: I agree the are pretty dumb. Let's not forget that the Browder conceptualized the colossus as a raider unit that would climb cliffs to get into mineral lines to do damage to workers. He said this on a recorded video back in 2010-11. It's not used that way at all, but he doesn't understand Starcraft whatsoever. Never has. Mech can be boring to watch and/or play if the intricacies of it are lost. When you have equal forces only indirect or tactical behavior can win the game, in other words, the person who makes good decisions regarding defending themselves, using terrain, attacking enemy weak points, and so on. Like this guy said. Runbys on mech in TvZ are the attacking of weak points that is tactical and good decision making on Z or bad decision making on T which yields a game to the better strategist. Unfortunately, the last sentence conflicts with the first few. If DK wants things not to end up in turtle to max and deathball vs deathball, then giving P nexus cannon was absolutely wrong for TvP. It might have been probable that the intent was for protoss to feel safe having an "oh crap I'm in trouble and need to defend" easy button at their fingertips so that they would be more aggressive and attack more often instead of turtling themselves until they have the deathball. Unfortunately, the way they implemented this effectively encourages turtle behavior and immunity to early-mid game harass. I'm thinking it was so protoss could cut out photon spam from their builds in base around nexuses, to go for earlier pushes, but that isn't what happened. Overcharge needs to be locked away in midgame somehow, like requiring the building of templar archives or something. If Protoss needed a way to defend their bases, they should have just used Recall for that purpose. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
On July 06 2014 02:44 Socup wrote: I agree the are pretty dumb. Let's not forget that the Browder conceptualized the colossus as a raider unit that would climb cliffs to get into mineral lines to do damage to workers. He said this on a recorded video back in 2010-11. It's not used that way at all, but he doesn't understand Starcraft whatsoever. Never has. Mech can be boring to watch and/or play if the intricacies of it are lost. When you have equal forces only indirect or tactical behavior can win the game, in other words, the person who makes good decisions regarding defending themselves, using terrain, attacking enemy weak points, and so on. Like this guy said. Runbys on mech in TvZ are the attacking of weak points that is tactical and good decision making on Z or bad decision making on T which yields a game to the better strategist. Unfortunately, the last sentence conflicts with the first few. If DK wants things not to end up in turtle to max and deathball vs deathball, then giving P nexus cannon was absolutely wrong for TvP. It might have been probable that the intent was for protoss to feel safe having an "oh crap I'm in trouble and need to defend" easy button at their fingertips so that they would be more aggressive and attack more often instead of turtling themselves until they have the deathball. Unfortunately, the way they implemented this effectively encourages turtle behavior and immunity to early-mid game harass. I'm thinking it was so protoss could cut out photon spam from their builds in base around nexuses, to go for earlier pushes, but that isn't what happened. Overcharge needs to be locked away in midgame somehow, like requiring the building of templar archives or something. Quoting the post someone was banned for in order to agree with it? I see you live life on the edge | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
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Socup
190 Posts
On July 06 2014 03:34 Empirimancer wrote: Make Widow Mines 1 supply. Overpowered. Could you imagine instead of mass maruader tank, mass widow mine tank with digging claw and the ability to shoot air units and zone out for tanks? | ||
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IVOeu
107 Posts
On July 06 2014 03:34 Empirimancer wrote: Make Widow Mines 1 supply. That makes them little bit op imo, and it doesent fix T late game. | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
On July 06 2014 04:07 Socup wrote: Overpowered. Could you imagine instead of mass maruader tank, mass widow mine tank with digging claw and the ability to shoot air units and zone out for tanks? Yes I can imagine it, and it is awesome. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 06 2014 04:07 Socup wrote: Overpowered. Could you imagine instead of mass maruader tank, mass widow mine tank with digging claw and the ability to shoot air units and zone out for tanks? With the current mine, I could see it work. With the old mine it would have been ridiculous. But with the nerfed mine, that might even make Mech TvP playable, since mass mines is an extremely strong tool against most things that are overpowered against Mech - until you hit 200/200 max with mass mines and the enemy Protoss is still at 160 and won't be countered anymore - completely without adjusting to the mines - when he is at 200/200. Like, what you describe with the mass mine/tank would still just collapse to Broodlords or Swarm Hosts. Infestors are very, very powerful against mass mines too. Bio/mine would definitely be the much stronger combo with 1supply mines imo, and given how this mostly affects lategame (and slightly midgame through less supply depots needed early - a tiny factor) and lategame bio is currently in trouble against Zerg, that could just make a ton of sense. I think this would be something comparable with the baneling vs bio, where in the lategame you can just have a ridiculous amount of 0.5supply banelings. Which might counter each other out quite well. And against Protoss, it's not like mass mines Mech or biomech has been strong yet (though mixed in mines are decent). Colossi and Templar can still clean up mass mines easily. Tempests kill them slowly for free. And Stalkers can be blink microed against them and clean them up from greater range anytime they try to move forward out of siege range. I think in TvP it has a bigger chance of being too strong than in TvZ, and for that you could just adjust the +vs shields a little bit or in general nerf the HP of the mine a tiny bit to make them more snipeable through micro moves, so you can whittle down the count easier. | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
- EMP changed from 100 to 150 shield damage and/or from 1.5 radius to 2. - Battlecruisers changed from 6 to 4 supply. - Thors changed from 6 to 4 supply, and/or from 1.875 to 2 move speed. - "Ocular Implants" upgrade from BW. Would increase Ghost sight from 11 to 13, and Nuke cast range from 12 to 14. - Nuke damage increase from 300 to 400 against units, and 500 to 600 against buildings. All of these at once might make late-game terran too strong, but a few of them could be nice. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On July 05 2014 23:17 EngrishTeacher wrote: Ok I'll keep this really short to get my point across: WHY is Blizzard refusing to buff siege tanks? Is it not indicative of a problem when the staple unit of Terran is not used in 2/3 of match-ups (only used in... TvT) about 95% of the time? Other than playing mech, holding off roach/bane all-ins in TvZ, and the odd marine/tank timing attacks in TvP (all still very niche scenarios), the tank fucking blows balls. We're at the point where it's ABfuckingNORMAL to see a tank in a pro game that's not TvT. They want to avoid the BW dynamic where a maxed out Terran mech army is unbeatable by anything that doesn't cost 200% of what it does. This would be very overpowered with how the SC2 economy works. In BW, you beat mech by stalling, making them slow push, harassing, and making them split their army. If they persistently push towards one of your expansions, you're going to lose that expansion. You win the game by making them take forever to finally push over it, while in the meantime doing more damage to them via harassment/recalls than you take from losing that expansion. This is fine in BW because in BW you can profitably have six mining bases. If you lose one, that's only 1/6 of your income. In SC2, you can only have 3 mining bases and this kind of dynamic is broken, they can slow push towards your third, knowing they're going to win when they finally roll over it. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On July 06 2014 05:03 Xequecal wrote: They want to avoid the BW dynamic where a maxed out Terran mech army is unbeatable by anything that doesn't cost 200% of what it does. This would be very overpowered with how the SC2 economy works. In BW, you beat mech by stalling, making them slow push, harassing, and making them split their army. If they persistently push towards one of your expansions, you're going to lose that expansion. You win the game by making them take forever to finally push over it, while in the meantime doing more damage to them via harassment/recalls than you take from losing that expansion. This is fine in BW because in BW you can profitably have six mining bases. If you lose one, that's only 1/6 of your income. In SC2, you can only have 3 mining bases and this kind of dynamic is broken, they can slow push towards your third, knowing they're going to win when they finally roll over it. I very much doubt their thought process is that complex. It's probably more like:" Medivacs are cool, marine spliting is cool, don't be like BW, etc" | ||
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HallofPain
Japan16 Posts
I'd like to see upgrades added at maybe Fusion Core level that can solve this issue. Also I think Banshee and BC need some love. New Idea : added upgrades researchable at Fusion Core Viking - Hellfire thruster - As in Starbow, in crease speed by 1.20. this will allow Terran to patrol around base more efficiently, will take less damage from Muta harrass when going mech. Banshee - Turbo fan - Increase speed by 1.00. Makes counter attack with Banshee possible. BC - Defensive Matrix - when activated will be immune to all spells. I really hate it when stupid abduct/feedback basically just erase your 400/300 unit from the game. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On July 06 2014 05:03 Xequecal wrote: They want to avoid the BW dynamic where a maxed out Terran mech army is unbeatable by anything that doesn't cost 200% of what it does. This would be very overpowered with how the SC2 economy works. In BW, you beat mech by stalling, making them slow push, harassing, and making them split their army. If they persistently push towards one of your expansions, you're going to lose that expansion. You win the game by making them take forever to finally push over it, while in the meantime doing more damage to them via harassment/recalls than you take from losing that expansion. This is fine in BW because in BW you can profitably have six mining bases. If you lose one, that's only 1/6 of your income. In SC2, you can only have 3 mining bases and this kind of dynamic is broken, they can slow push towards your third, knowing they're going to win when they finally roll over it. As Saphire.lux said, this explanation is better thought out than anything I've ever personally read from DK or any of the Blizz team. Is that proof that their thought process is way less sophisticated? No, but if they are that far ahead of the curve, why not gain some good will in the community by demonstrating it? This is a strategy game, after all. We're not going to call them nerds for doing their homework. Here's what I want to see: Short-term: -Don't touch Medivacs! Jesus! There's no way as Terran to prevent fluke Medivac snipes (Blink, intercepting Mutas, etc), so all this does is encourage gambling on midgame aggression. Making Medivacs faster won't prevent great Terrans from dying to stupid accidental shit like "oh no two full Medivacs died from Blink Stalkers, I guess it's GG because I have 20 less core army supply for the next push," which is what we're all tired of seeing. -WM AOE nerf reverted. -Siege Tank damage buff. -Banshee cost changed from 150/100 to 175/50, Cloak upgrade cost changed from 100/100 to 100/150. Harassment Banshee costs the same, macro Banshees are much cheaper. -If the Banshee change is successful, Seeker Missile can be nerfed without crippling mech vs. SH. -EMP AOE nerf reverted. There's no reason for Storm to be strictly better. -Make Vikings transform faster and deal more damage in ground mode. This will mean if Terran overproduced Vikings, they won't be completely fucked for the next engagement and will be able to use them for something. -PO damage changed to heavy +Shields, light standard. It primary PvP function remains unchanged. -Time Warp removed. I'd say "make it an upgrade," but honestly, it's such a shitty spell, and Protoss really don't need it... -Warp Prism changed from 200/0 to 200/100, Zealot warp ins should have some risk attached. -Reduce AOE on Blinding Cloud. Or force Vipers to channel it. Or both. LOTV: -Make early Reapers suck less. Then give them an Armory-level upgrade that makes them legitimate army units. -Make sure macro mech works in all three match ups if it doesn't already. Core units to tweak: WM, Hellbat, Tank, Thor, Banshee, Viking, Raven. If it doesn't work, continue tweaking those units until it does. -Make Tanks, Thors, Ravens, Banshees, and Battlecruisers usable in every MU, not counting all-ins. -Armory-level Tech Reactors. Terrans are the least flexible in terms of production facilities, this will give them some chance of being able to switch from bio to mech effectively. -Give Colossus a skill ceiling. -Give Immortals a skill ceiling. -Give Archons a skill ceiling. -Give DTs a skill ceiling. -Give Void Rays a skill ceiling. -Give Tempests a skill ceiling. -With PO nerfed and Time Warp gone, allow more than one MSC. If Protoss want to risk separating their army to do some multiprong harassment in the midgame, well, why the hell not? -Something to make Corruptors not suck so hard. Anything. Here's an idea: Death by Tentacles. The Corruptor latches on to an air unit within its attack range for 10 seconds (moves into melee range). During that time, the Corruptor has the same DPS but can only attack its target. The tentacled air unit can't move. This would make Muta/Corruptor vs. Phoenix/Void Ray less one dimensional, and it would give Zerg a counter to Mutas in ZvZ. -Allow Zerg air units to burrow on creep, because more micro opportunities never hurt anyone. I know "make unit X more usable" isn't very helpful for Blizzard, but the reality is there have been a thousand and one suggestions for each of these units already, and who knows which ones would benefit the game? Blizzard just needs to try a bunch. Give the unit more damage, give it more life, give it faster movement speed, give it a bunch of different abilities. What if Battlecruisers could proxy-spawn Barracks units? You click your BC, you click a Barracks, and any unit made by that Barracks will spawn under the BC. What if Thors were bigger, had less damage, more life, and shielded all friendly units behind them from ranged attacks? You have expansions and betas, you have test maps. If you can't brilliantly deduce how to fix the game from just looking at it, use the tools at your disposal to do it. You've had four years already. FFS. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I hope they really look at creep. Maybe even remove the speed bonus and instead compensate it->Make hydra more speed etc. But make hydras more micro. Make zealots have a skill ceiling. Would be pure epic if zealots could micro and then watch "a real duel" between zealot vs hydras/lings/x and zealot vs marines/marauders. Unrealistic for lotv: Look at warpgate...mule...inject+other stuff like PF... Hell, look at mothership core to...Just remove it and compensate making toss a man race! | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
On July 05 2014 23:23 Karpfen wrote: How is it a problem? MMMM parade (with mine buff) will probably be better to watch than tank camping. See early hots. WCS AM, Bomber used tanks against Alicia (Protoss) in interesting, aggressive ways. So no, it will not always be camping. Just allow the Medivac to pick up sieged tanks, and give tanks a little extra damage against shields. Forget the Medivac speed and mine buff. For TvZ increase Thor damage radius. | ||
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