EPTTerran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 55
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
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Telon Petrides
Canada58 Posts
Pigbaby seemed completely impervious to Taeja, built a couple extra Zealots and Observers, then just walked across the map and vaporized Taeja in all three games. In the last two matches, I felt Polt, Hyun, Pigbaby and Taeja played the games mistake free and at the absolute top level. The result was pretty much a complete stomp by Hyun and Pigbaby 3-0. Heart and Pigbaby played surprisingly well. I hadn't seen much of their play before. Hyun looks like the favorite to with WCS America. He looks really strong. Nice to see a TvT upcoming tomorrow. As for the direction of Terran Buffs, the Mine buff is important for TvZ, and something else for TvP, like revert the stim nerf, and buff Ghost/Viking. I think leave the medivac alone. | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On July 06 2014 12:57 Telon Petrides wrote: After watching WCS America, it stands out to me when the races are played to full potential, Terran has little chance. Violet played worse than Heart and should not have won the match. Bomber's win had a lot to his unconventionality. Polt looked like he had no chance at all vs Hyun. There was not enough AOE to deal with roaches and banes. All of Polt's tanks just evaporated on Frost. Pigbaby seemed completely impervious to Taeja, built a couple extra Zealots and Observers, then just walked across the map and vaporized Taeja in all three games. In the last two matches, I felt Polt, Hyun, Pigbaby and Taeja played the games mistake free and at the absolute top level. The result was pretty much a complete stomp by Hyun and Pigbaby 3-0. Heart and Pigbaby played surprisingly well. I hadn't seen much of their play before. Hyun looks like the favorite to with WCS America. He looks really strong. Nice to see a TvT upcoming tomorrow. As for the direction of Terran Buffs, the Mine buff is important for TvZ, and something else for TvP, like revert the stim nerf, and buff Ghost/Viking. I think leave the medivac alone. Polt said he was distracted in his games against hyun. He didn't play it mistake free at all | ||
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Evil_Sheep
Canada902 Posts
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daylu
United States52 Posts
-Why not increase EMP range so they don't get annihilated instantly -increase turret range -increase viking build time/remove "armored" tag -decrease creep speed -increase banshee speed -remove hunter seeker and make ravens 150 gas -add an upgrade at the armory that increases tank siege up time | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
-Don't touch Medivacs! Jesus! There's no way as Terran to prevent fluke Medivac snipes (Blink, intercepting Mutas, etc), so all this does is encourage gambling on midgame aggression. Making Medivacs faster won't prevent great Terrans from dying to stupid accidental shit like "oh no two full Medivacs died from Blink Stalkers, I guess it's GG because I have 20 less core army supply for the next push," which is what we're all tired of seeing. 15 minutes macro, 1 fight, gg...."FFS" -Banshee cost changed from 150/100 to 175/50, a banshee for a reaper price? -Make early Reapers suck less. Then give them an Armory-level upgrade that makes them legitimate army units. sure, let's buf a scout unit for other purpose thant what he is supposed to do. Better let's give a upgrade that will make reaper transform into thor so reaper are not wasted in late game. -Make Vikings transform faster and deal more damage in ground mode. This will mean if Terran overproduced Vikings, they won't be completely fucked for the next engagement and will be able to use them for something. ^^kill the brain, kill the pain... that's one way to take care of the problem -EMP AOE nerf reverted. There's no reason for Storm to be strictly better. why not if HT has 1 more range in fb^^ Corruptors they will be changed, maybe new unit Blizzard just needs to try a bunch and who'll test the changes ? (no offense to foreigners^^)also about skill ceiling. what's micro ? edit: i like some of daylu comment -Why not increase EMP range so they don't get annihilated instantly so terran take the lead in every battle? -increase viking build time/remove "armored" tag armored for stalker bonus dps -remove hunter seeker and make ravens 150 gas even if it's maybe a good suggestion, the real issue is how to produce this unit -increase turret range vs dt/oracle/mutas/medivac -decrease creep speed not too much, zerg need to acces b3, i'll prefer to see -50% stack bonus -increase banshee speed YES!!! -add an upgrade at the armory that increases tank siege up time not sure what u means really, but buff aoe unit always a good thing edit 2 : what if 1 rack + reactor production = 2 marines or 1 marine 1 marauder or 1 marine 1 reaper or 1 marine 1 ghost lab tech for research and 1unit/production same for factory/staport | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On July 06 2014 16:55 ETisME wrote: Polt said he was distracted in his games against hyun. He didn't play it mistake free at all Ye, hyun played on a completely different level than polt. The terran stories are the same since years. When a foreigner wins against a kor terran than its race imbalance and the other way round they have walls of text of constructed explanations. It is funny how all the terrans come here and list there totally biased opinions over and over while the state of terran is nowhere near as bad as they wish. Even more so due to the fact that many games are (pre)decided in midgames and terran is mostly the dominating race in this part of the metagame. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On July 06 2014 21:38 LSN wrote: The terran stories are the same since years. When a foreigner wins against a kor terran than its race imbalance and the other way round they have walls of text of constructed explanations. It is funny how all the terrans come here and list there totally biased opinions over and over while the state of terran is nowhere near as bad as they wish. Even more so due to the fact that many games are (pre)decided in midgames and terran is mostly the dominating race in this part of the metagame. This "he was just a better player"-argument is obviously a terribly way of discssuing as it's so heavily dominated by bias. IMO the unbiased way of arguing is to look at how good of a player Hyun is compared to other Zergs. For instance, if Hyun is the 10th best zerg in the world and Polt the 20th best terran, then we would expect Hyun to win (if the game is balanced). If on the other hand, the 10th best zerg consistently can beat the 10th best terran, then it seems likely that there is a balance issue. Ye, hyun played on a completely different level than polt. I hope you realize your making the exact same logical error as all the terrans you claim are making up stories. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On July 06 2014 20:40 Cazimirbzh wrote: sure, let's buf a scout unit for other purpose thant what he is supposed to do. Better let's give a upgrade that will make reaper transform into thor so reaper are not wasted in late game. There isn't enough room in this game for dedicated early game scout units. That's a stupid niche role that has no right to exist when Terran is so limited in compositions to begin with. These are Blizzard's options: 1) give units like the Reaper more depth, 2) keep units like the Reaper obsolete except in one niche situation and make new units with depth, or 3) don't do anything, keep Terran as a one-trick pony race, because that's obviously the makings of a successful strategy game right there. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On July 06 2014 21:42 Hider wrote: This "he was just a better player"-argument is obviously a terribly way of discssuing as it's so heavily dominated by bias. IMO the unbiased way of arguing is to look at how good of a player Hyun is compared to other Zergs. For instance, if Hyun is the 10th best zerg in the world and Polt the 20th best terran, then we would expect Hyun to win (if the game is balanced). If on the other hand, the 10th best zerg consistently can beat the 10th best terran, then it seems likely that there is a balance issue. In sports it is usual business that players have feared opponents such as e.g. in tennis or judo (1on1 sports), who they always lose to, while winning to others on same or higher level. This applies especially to SC2 too. In this example hyun mentioned that polt uses to always play the same 1-2 macro builds and therefore he was able perfectly read him and use this for his benefit. Also it is quite common that favourites (e.g. taeja) underestimate newcomers alot and therefore take higher risks (taejas offence failed in every game) and play a bit arrogantly. "I hope you realize your making the exact same logical error as all the terrans you claim are making up stories" What bullshit do you try to talk on me? :D Did you see the games? I am not here for 1h game alalysis of a bo5. If you had seen the games you could simply tell so. Hyun outplayed polt with slow lings, with precice timings and 100% a-game. Polt was nowhere near his a-game, was a bit slow in his decision making and reaction times in many situations, and you could also even see this on the expression of his face before and during the games, while hyun was overly confident all the time and varied and adjusted his builds perfectly. Other than that, of course, terran needs some buffs, I agree. But surely not op nukes, faster barracks/stim timings (for more easy wins in midgame?) and all that other idiotic stuff that is being mentioned here. Terran needs more viablilty of mech and mixed bio mech compositions instead imo that especially address lategame P/Z compositions and gonna make terrans less vulnerable against them. Btw: I like stuff like reaper upgrades for midgame viability. This is good for variations but it wont help terran in the meta at all because a Z/P that is safe against drops will also be safe against reapers at the same time. | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
Protoss player detected. User was warned for this post | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On July 06 2014 02:44 Socup wrote: Mech can be boring to watch and/or play if the intricacies of it are lost. When you have equal forces only indirect or tactical behavior can win the game, in other words, the person who makes good decisions regarding defending themselves, using terrain, attacking enemy weak points, and so on. In TvT yes. But TvT is a miror matchup. What has that got to do with balance? You want to make mech exciting? Stop asking for buffs for no returns. Make it like other exciting matchups with fast moving, microable, high dps, low hp units with a smattering of energy units. But wait, that's not what the mech advocates ask for. They as always ask for a way for a deathball style of play. We already have the protoss race. We don't need another. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On July 06 2014 22:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote: In TvT yes. But TvT is a miror matchup. What has that got to do with balance? You want to make mech exciting? Stop asking for buffs for no returns. Make it like other exciting matchups with fast moving, microable, high dps, low hp units with a smattering of energy units. But wait, that's not what the mech advocates ask for. They as always ask for a way for a deathball style of play. Not true at all. The Terran community united as one to excise the Warhound from existence, and the Warhound was exactly the sort of deathball Protoss mech unit you're describing. I think that's incontrovertible proof that mech advocates have high standards. We might not always be able to express our desires with great sophistication, but we don't get paid the big bucks to think about game design. I think that Banshees and Vikings have the potential to be staple mech units in TvZ/TvP, playing the role of the Vulture from BW. Nothing deathbally about using them for hit and runs. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 06 2014 21:48 pure.Wasted wrote: There isn't enough room in this game for dedicated early game scout units. That's a stupid niche role that has no right to exist when Terran is so limited in compositions to begin with. These are Blizzard's options: 1) give units like the Reaper more depth, 2) keep units like the Reaper obsolete except in one niche situation and make new units with depth, or 3) don't do anything, keep Terran as a one-trick pony race, because that's obviously the makings of a successful strategy game right there. I disagree. Terran has 14 units (not counting SCVs). With so many, there is definately room for some niche roles, though obviously units are better designed when they can do more than that. What's worrysome is if only 4 (Marine, Medivac, Marauder, Viking) are really good at what they do in all matchups. Then there is mines and hellbats which or nice support units for various jobs in all matchups. Which makes 6/14 that you could say they do what they are meant to. All of the other ones are extremely dependend of what your opponent's race is (ghost, hellion, tank, raven, BC), are niche (reaper, banshee) or only come into play superlate (BC, Raven). | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On July 06 2014 22:14 Big J wrote: I disagree. Terran has 14 units (not counting SCVs). With so many, there is definately room for some niche roles, though obviously units are better designed when they can do more than that. What's worrysome is if only 4 (Marine, Medivac, Marauder, Viking) are really good at what they do in all matchups. Then there is mines and hellbats which or nice support units for various jobs in all matchups. Which makes 6/14 that you could say they do what they are meant to. All of the other ones are extremely dependend of what your opponent's race is (ghost, hellion, tank, raven, BC), are niche (reaper, banshee) or only come into play superlate (BC, Raven). Unless I misunderstand you, we're not really disagreeing. If 13/14 Terran units were useful across all match-ups, the last one could be the nichest of all niche units on the planet and I couldn't care less. The problem, as you say, is that 13/14 Terran units are not useful across all MUs. We don't live in an ideal world. Which is why there's no room for niche units that don't carry their weight. The math is just so ludicrously simple in my head that I don't understand how it's evaded Blizzard for four years. Terran needs something to transition into in late game. Terran is predominantly bio. Reapers are bio. Reapers have no set role outside of the early game. There is such a thing as late game upgrades that redefine a unit's role (Charge, Adrenal Glands). 1+1=give Reapers an upgrade to make them a unit that late game bio can transition into. | ||
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gneGne
Netherlands697 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On July 06 2014 22:40 Big J wrote: Well, but i think the reaper is the qrong target for that by its design.i have no clue how you'd turn it into a lategame unit without making upgraded reapers something completely different from normal reapers. + Show Spoiler [Convoluted response] + That's only true if tier 1 Reapers remain exactly as they are right now. They don't have to. There were two different Reapers throughout WOL (cluster bomb vs. building attack), and it's not that difficult to imagine either of those getting some "+50 HP" upgrade that would make the unit relevant later on. At this point, there's nothing to hold on to. Making maps Blink-proof has largely phased Reapers out of TvP, the only significant role they have in their current form is Reaper/Hellion pressure in ZvT, and that's not exactly something we couldn't live without. I can even think of a way to make Reapers relevant without changing them at all from how they are now. Give them a Ghost Academy or Armory unlocked upgrade that turns them into flying units that can also hit air. Not saying that that will automatically work, maybe they'd still be worthless or maybe they'd be horribly OP, but why not try it out and see? With some number tweaks, it could eventually lead somewhere interesting. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On July 06 2014 22:40 Big J wrote: Well, but i think the reaper is the qrong target for that by its design.i have no clue how you'd turn it into a lategame unit without making upgraded reapers something completely different from normal reapers. Its been done, even quite elegantly imo. From Starbow: "Elite Reaper Training" Upgrade Researched from Barracks Tech Lab. Allow Reapers to use the G-4 Charge ability. Grants Reapers additional 20 HP. Requires Engineering Bay. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
On July 06 2014 22:39 gneGne wrote: I think TaeJa vs PigBaby beautifully proves TheDwf's points on the neigh impossibility to really pressure a Protoss effectively early-to-mid game. PigBaby could see every drop coming with his observers so mistakes were not left to chance, then PigBaby could drag it out to the mid-late to late game where his upgraded zealots just steamrolled TaeJa's standing army. Perhaps its too soon to call but I feel the way PigBaby plays is a really good one. I also think that this was a good way to play. It may even become standard if they buff Medivacs as it will pigeon hole Terrans into drops, with so many observers you know where they are going and can intercept them. I think that the problem is that, as Protoss, you can keep making observers without having to worry about having a weakened army. Plus it helps if the Terran is spending most of his orbital energy trying to kill them. | ||
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