EPTTerran Buffs - Balance Testing Soon - July 1 - Page 57
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MarlieChurphy
United States2063 Posts
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On July 07 2014 10:13 MarlieChurphy wrote: These proposed changes seem silly. What else do they have? Every time there's a Terran buff, that's all anyone says. Then I say "Just buff tanks", and everyone agrees. Then Blizzard buffs some wonky thing like bunker build time. | ||
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Foreverkul
United States1649 Posts
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
On July 07 2014 09:49 Dingodile wrote: In ZvP I prefer to change the design of the first 10min in ZvP . Put Warpgate to Twilight council or templar archives, I just hate to see how the first 10min of ZvP go off. Why? Because you just press D all the way to 7 min? :D | ||
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Goofinator
England45 Posts
Another idea to make planetary overcharge more fair would be to prevent probes docking at a nexus that is under the planetary overcharge spell, but giving Protoss the ability to cancel the overcharge so probes could go back to mining without having to wait the full 60 seconds. This would mean that photon overcharge would be ok as a stop-gap giving time for protoss to warp in some units, but it comes at the cost of not being able to increase your income. This would give the protoss a decision of how long to have the overcharge going and how much money they lose because of it. Another solution along the same lines would be to prevent mining from a base that has photon overcharge activated but allow protoss to pause photon overcharge over the 60 seconds so probes could go back to dock. This means that protoss has to MICRO their overcharge so that they have a volley, pause (allow probes to return), fire a volley, pause...etc This gives the ability a degree of skill differentiation because at the moment, there is no difference between a bronze player activating overcharge or a grandmaster, but if it had the micro potential of pausing between volleys to allow probes to go back to harvest then low level players who cannot micro their nexus get punished whist good players who CAN do not. Anyway, since I am a Terran player I don't know how that would affect protoss in PvP or PvZ so both ideas could totally blow, but it is just a suggestion. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
The problem with Terran is that it struggles late game, when P and Z have better counters to bio, especially Protoss. Heaps and heaps of AoE just shred bio, leaving the Terran player stuck with the unenviable task of trying to micro many units in many places (drops, harass, main battle) in order to compensate for the losses their infantry will face. In my opinion (and I know I'm just some nub on the internet) tanks need a buff. Their damage currently is laughable and when I go up against Terran I see tanks on the field and think "That's an odd choice."
I sincerely don't think buffing bio is the ideal option - it will just lead to more of the same. Tanks should be a threat, I don't think they are currently. I think increasing their damage would go a long way to making Terran more viable late game and giving them serious tactical map presence. My 2 cents. | ||
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XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
It makes mech so much more sense. I dont understand the viking concept they make . . it feels landing the viking is only in desperate situation or in absolute winning situation . . .like . . . . one sided? I dont understand why banshee & viking cant attack land & air specifically. It feels so much like a forced decision for players to choose & for totally balance issue. It makes Terran mech dynamic so dull and rigid . . like thor with restricted slow movement, siege tank already had restriction but were not as good as BW era. Viking with transformation limitation etc . . . . | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16109 Posts
On July 07 2014 14:01 Xequecal wrote: I really don't get the "tank damage is low" complaint. They do double the damage of the BW tank to "small," and have significantly increased damage against "large." Remember the BW tank had a 5 second cooldown, and only did 35 damage to small units. I know a direct comparison is not possible here, but SC2 units have similar HP numbers to broodwar ones. People asking for massive damage are asking for the ability to have tanks work against Immortals by brute force, which is absolutely the wrong way to go. The problem with the Siege Tank isn't actually with the Siege Tank. It's with the ridiculous hard counter units that Zerg and Protoss have access to in HoTS that they never had in SC:BW. Immortals are an INSANE hard counter to Siege Tanks that also come at the same tech level and at a comparable price (higher cost in minerals and supply, lower gas cost) Those same Immortals also counter the shit out of the Thor. Late game vs Zerg Tanks drop off dramatically thanks to the stalling power of the Swarm Host and the overwhelming superiority of Hive Tech units vs ground based mech armies. Mech actually has real viability vs Zerg though because the main counters to Siege Tanks and Thors are at Hive Tech which give Mech plenty of timing windows to use to get ahead. The fact that the Immortal is available so damn early and counters Mech so damn hard SEVERELY limits what strategies you're able to actually use vs Protoss. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On July 07 2014 14:01 Xequecal wrote: I really don't get the "tank damage is low" complaint. They do double the damage of the BW tank to "small," and have significantly increased damage against "large." Remember the BW tank had a 5 second cooldown, and only did 35 damage to small units. I know a direct comparison is not possible here, but SC2 units have similar HP numbers to broodwar ones. People asking for massive damage are asking for the ability to have tanks work against Immortals by brute force, which is absolutely the wrong way to go. Siege tank in broodwar: 4.4 attackspeed 70 damage versus armored 52,5 versus medium (hydras were medium in broodwar) 35 vs light (Zealots, marines etc) Cost 150/100/2 43~ buildtime | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On July 07 2014 14:01 Xequecal wrote: I really don't get the "tank damage is low" complaint. They do double the damage of the BW tank to "small," and have significantly increased damage against "large." Remember the BW tank had a 5 second cooldown, and only did 35 damage to small units. I know a direct comparison is not possible here, but SC2 units have similar HP numbers to broodwar ones. People asking for massive damage are asking for the ability to have tanks work against Immortals by brute force, which is absolutely the wrong way to go. I'm confused here. Buffing tanks doesn't make them better against Immortals via "brute force." Immortals counter tank damage with their shields. A tank could do 1000 damage per shot and it still would only hit Immortal shields for 10. Bio is strong early and mid, falls off late game. Terran has no decent AoE unit. Tanks should have filled this role - they used to fill this role (beta and BW). Because of this lack of AoE, Terran players default to bio in most of their games because bio is mobile, has solid dps, is cheap, and gets the job done - until AoE counters hit the field. That's when Terran needs some big guns to hit back with. As they stand now, tanks are almost laughable (to me, at least). You have to babysit them until you have a large number, at which point the enemy usually has something to counter them. Until you have a lot, they're a liability. It's usually better to invest in more bio than tanks. How many times have you seen people just stim and snipe a tank, or blink on top of it, or just charge in with a bigger force because the tank doesn't put out enough damage to offset it's cost. Hell, one stimmed marauder or 3 marines are better than a tank in most circumstances - and they cost less. | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
On July 06 2014 17:42 daylu wrote: Reading David Kim's comments leads one to wonder what game he is watching? Its not surprising the game is in the state that it's in. Buffing the medivac seems fruitless, just sounds like balancing the entertainment aspect of SC2 on the backs of terran once again. Instead of requiring terran to micro more, try something that will actually help the lower level players a bit. -Why not increase EMP range so they don't get annihilated instantly -increase turret range -increase viking build time/remove "armored" tag -decrease creep speed -increase banshee speed -remove hunter seeker and make ravens 150 gas -add an upgrade at the armory that increases tank siege up time There's an upgrade for turret range. The position is the same for increased build time and lower armor: not enough of em to matter. If you're losing vikings before they do their job then you're engaging wrong/you don't have enough. It's also not hard to overmake vikings to quickly burn down colossus and brood lords and then transform them so they can continue to do work with your main army afterward, unlike corruptors for Zerg. Overmaking those is actually dangerous because they have only the corroption spell left. It's a decent spell, but still Terran wins the fight of dedicated anti-armored air/colossus unit which can then support your main army after the threat is over. Vikings also make great harass tools when you get enough upgrades. People didn't want to spend the extra few minerals and gas to be able to transition from bio to mech or have a mixed force, so they merged mech upgrades so that air and ground are both capable of supporting your bio. If you get upgrades for vikings like you should be doing to kill colossus or brood lords quickly, then your ground mech has weapons and armor, too, so you can seamlessly throw some of those in if the situation calls for it. I don't see the problem here other than players failing to take advantage of this. Creep spread is already a pain in the ass. You should play zerg and see how much dedication it takes to spread creep. Maybe. HSM is important and powerful for Terran, because it can be used to allow T to advance and position!. HSM's are threat tools. You don't send them on air units or colossus which can easily be microed back or out of the fight to blow up the HSM or have it detonate on a single target, you use it on the clumps of deadly ground units which cant avoid this missile. He'd have to pull a lot of his forces back to pop the HSM, or do a lot of microing to get one of his stalkers, roaches, ultras, etc, out of the deathball to mitigate the damage, and that means a lot of his army will not be firing for a few moments. It's there to force enemy armies back or take damage, which gives you the breathing room to position better. If he tries to just power through, that HSM is a nice bonus AoE damage against his army. I've wondered if siege tanks couldn't get different munitions to swap to, such as siege tanks that come with scatter shot that turns the main gun into a very low damage but quicker firing AoE. Much better for TvP zealot/immortal heavy armies, not much if at all better than siege mode vs Zerg armies but at least equivalent so a tank needn't always be siege mode and thus allows greater mobility to T army vs Z, and can only be used on the tank mode gun, since it'd be redundant with siege mode anyway, but also increases siege tank versatility while in tank mode. It can even be the preferred mode when dealing with chargelots or immortals, since no more splash damage on tanks to each other and the scatter shot will not be as affected by immortal shields since it'll do a very low damage, like say, 4-6. Of course it goes without saying that it is much less useful against units with high armor, but it adds versatility and mobility to the usage of tanks without affecting anything else in the game. | ||
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setaGuelB
Taiwan34 Posts
I really do like some of your ideas like stim, reaper and ghost(include nuke) etc. I agree with your post, it's pretty on point. I think some of them can really help terran's late game. But I think your ideas of mech are useless. As you can see, recently only Maru played a late game mech with toss, and he didn't lose because of tank or immortal. He lost because mech cannot defend harassment by little supply army. Buff siege tank is necessary, but I don't think change immortal's shield can work. However I have some old ideas, would you mind to criticize them? mech in TvP 1.Double attack in siege mode but each damage is halved. AND +10 vs massive 2.Add an anti-mech skill to thor (something like Haywire Missiles, maybe research in fusion core) And I think in TvP, the most important elements are MSC, Oracle, and EMP Therefore 1.Change Overcharge damage to 12+8 vs armored 2.Revert oracle's acceleration to 2 OR remove bonus damage vs light 3.Enhance EMP, drain 150/100 The bio in TvZ, I prefer Snute's idea: give anti-regeneration effect to Thor anti-air attacks. | ||
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Champi
1422 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Mech is cool to watch played by very very very good people (like, top 10 Terrans?), not so much when it's just about boring your opponent to death. I think David Kim at least understands this, and that's why he doesn't want to buff mech too much for the time being. Mech simply doesn't have the tools to be interesting and exciting in HotS. | ||
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Foreverkul
United States1649 Posts
Obvious lie. If this doesn't tell you that David Kim hates Terran then I don't know what will convince you. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
On July 07 2014 17:10 Foreverkul wrote: "In terms of recent tournament wins, the three races are performing quite evenly." -David Kim Obvious lie. If this doesn't tell you that David Kim hates Terran then I don't know what will convince you. He doesn't hate Terran, but he's either delusional or afraid to admit he's terribly wrong. | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
as i see the discussion is burning up again. maybe someone could be interested in the overall desired changes that i summarized some time ago: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx5JmM4QEG4QMTNjZ0o1aUxoZzg/edit?usp=sharing | ||
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Socup
190 Posts
On July 07 2014 16:56 ZenithM wrote: I like buffing stim way more than buffing siege tank. If you buff the siege tank in any significant way, you'll get players happy to turtle to death all across the leagues up to pro foreigner level, trying to bore their opponent out. Mech is cool to watch played by very very very good people (like, top 10 Terrans?), not so much when it's just about boring your opponent to death. I think David Kim at least understands this, and that's why he doesn't want to buff mech too much for the time being. Mech simply doesn't have the tools to be interesting and exciting in HotS. Buffing stim would just pigeon hole Terran into bio more. It also would not be fun for the other races. Siege tank can be buffed without encouraging more turtle. The corollary is that you should be able to break any turtling race with tactics. There's either always a weak spot or they're contained in a tiny area and therefore have no access to more bases, where its possible to get a superior army and trade unevenly yet still break them. Always aim for the weakest spots. I think most people have a problem of wanting to fight someone head on instead of maneuvering with their army. Anyway, siege tanks can be buffed in numerous ways without encouraging turtle power. -More HP. It kind of helps turtling, but it also helps fights even out in field which means T's could feel to be aggressive rather than turtle. After all, more HP doesn't help you win if you're not attacking your enemy. -More armor in Tank Mode. 2-3 Armor in tank mode as opposed to the standard 1 that it is now. Transforming into siege mode strips the armor down either to 1 or 0. The reasoning in terms of physics is simple, it's opening the shell to spread out it's parts and have a larger cannon and leg stabilizers. In game terms, it makes great sense because it allows Tank Mode some viability without benefiting Siege Mode at all, and it encourages run and gun rather than camp and starve. -Scatter shot for Tank Mode. Only 4-6 damage, but it's a conversion to the Tank Mode gun which allows tanks to engage zealot/immortal balls specifically, or mass immortal/mass zealot, without falling prey to the hardened shield or chargelot self splashing from siege mode. Ironically, people should be using tanks in tank mode vs immortals as hydras are vs immortals anyway; there's less DPS lost and the firing rate is pretty high. The thing which stops people from doing that is likely that the tank would have to be microed well or your army would have to do the musket line warfare SC2 game, all run into the enemy guns in order to allow tanks to be able to get into range of the immortals. The alternative is putting tanks in front, of course, but then theres HP or armor problems... | ||
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