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On July 03 2014 21:22 ciox wrote:
Goliaths were shit anti-air? That sounds strange, you should compare their DPS cost for cost with the Thor's DPS and see what happens, there is a giant difference.
Can we even compare BW DPS for individual units to SC2 DPS individual units without looking at the entire design and design numbers for each game? 1 DPS BW probably does not equal 1 DPS SC2 for any given unit
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On July 04 2014 03:15 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 02:42 eightym wrote:On July 04 2014 02:02 cheekymonkey wrote:
it's funny to think of that a lot of people voted no to both I'm a terran and I voted no for the medivacs. That idea is just stupid. I feel it will considerably reduce the viability of mech in TvT. I almost voted no for the mine because I don't want Blizzard thinking that's a sufficient buff. Blizzard only updates the game once a year and they don't fix their mistakes. The last thing I want is a meaningless buff. I'm also a Terran and voted no to both. The medivac change is incredibly dumb and would have negative repercussions in TvT, while the widow mine is essentially semi-random; putting Terran's viability in the arms of random game design isn't cool IMO. Widow mines are a neat inclusion, but they shouldn't be the thing that balances the race so long as they're designed the way they are. All Terran needs is some viable early game options to punish Z/P greed, and the game will sort itself out. Some people think this means pigeon-holing Terran into being an all-in race, but the actual result is a shift to more conservative openings from the other races which has a snowball effect for the rest of the game. Late-game Terran units probably need some adjustment too, but I'd rather see Blizzard smooth out the overall game first, then target late-game after seeing what happens when Terrans enter the late-game on equal footing, rather than always being behind.
Make maps smaller and we are going to see a big difference. Why are all the maps fricking huge nowdays? season 2 was just... wow. All maps better for zerg on TvZ.
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On July 04 2014 03:09 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 02:16 Big J wrote:On July 04 2014 01:58 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 00:22 Big J wrote:
Anybody having any interesting idea about a lategame buff for Terran that helps with both Protoss, can be transitioned into from bio vs Zerg but doesn't add even more power to the mass raven mech vs Zerg and hopefully doesn't break TvT? I mentioned it before but here it goes: 1- Viking damage buff to help with colossi 2 - Ghost academy build time and cost reduction to make ghost transition faster and easier to include in terran builds. 3 - Thor move speed buff, together with better vikes provides a better answer vs mass mutas. In TvZ bio terrans are transitioning to triple factory, choosing between hellbat or mine, and adding a few thors vs mass muta. With hellbats pushes terrans are also building the armory sooner so a thor buff sounds helpful. For mech maybe an infestor buff can balance things out (but not insta fungal). For TvP the proposition is to allow terran to react faster to templars and more efficiently to colossi. Also make sure to not propose things that help terran but breaks ZvP. Well, 1 would be problematic in general I think. Vikings are pretty good against various things and very standard in TvT and Mech vs Z play. I think that has quite some potential to break something. And with 2, I think Terrans aren't really struggling with the reaction time to HTs. In general 1+2 don't seem like problems too me to be honest. I think Terran can react to Colossi and HTs very well and do some pretty strong midgame pushes at the time when the Protoss builds either of those units. I think Terran rather has troubles when they should take it to the lategame and they know both - Colossi and Templar - are there (amongst other things) but have a hard time fielding something that Colossi/Templar aren't marvelous against. I have heard 3 before. I think this could be handy for lategame bio (thinking about a buff to 2.25), though I doubt it would really help too much with mutalisks unless you buff the Thor to something fast like 2.75. Which I believe is broken, especially with Mech. But... there is no way around it, to make terran better vs colossus HT you must buff either vikings or ghosts, since a buff to medivacs or bio breaks the game. So either a buff to ghosts/viking or give terran some timing before it happens. While for zerg the problem is the "even upgrades baneling speed muta 10 minutes timing"(*sarcasm) that lasts until terran has 3/3. Terran needs something to deal with mutas (viking or thor) or with baneling (widow mine). But a widow mine buff must not affect TvP as much since its already a strong early unit in the matchup. Turning shield damage into norm damage doesn't help with banes... But to be honest all you said makes a lot of sense
I think with the mines you can play around a little bit with the radius and look whether you find a relation where it one shots a few extra banes, which could help.
My favorite would be a small muta nerf, like theDwf suggests with a lower regeneration.
I think it would be cool if for Terran one of the lategame factory/starport units besides the viking/medivac and the early ones hellion/hellbat/mine would be transitionable from bio in both matchups.
The Thor is the most promising one in ZvT and something like a small speed buff could be nice.
Besides that, it would be cool if of Thor/Tank/BC/Raven, one of them was a really huge threat for Protoss. Currently, Ravens just get fucked over by feedback and storm and are only really descent against the units that a Protoss doesn't build vs bio.
BCs have never been strong against blink/feedback as standard, VRs are good against them and Tempests just completely overcounter them. I don't even know how you'd transition into them from bio, given the standard Protoss deathball with blink stalkers and templar and then the Protoss can just wipe them out of the world.
Thors are nice, but do not really force anything out of the Protoss. It's just a unit that is overall OK to have, but not something like a Colossus, Templar or Ultralisk that really fucks you up if you don't respect it.
And tanks are plainly bad against nearly everything Protoss, besides the opponent charging into a meatshield in front of them with the wrong units.
Imo, in making at least one of those units so viable that Protoss has vary its lategame army composition if the Terran goes for that transition is the key to balancing lategame TvP.
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On July 04 2014 03:36 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 03:09 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 02:16 Big J wrote:On July 04 2014 01:58 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 00:22 Big J wrote:
Anybody having any interesting idea about a lategame buff for Terran that helps with both Protoss, can be transitioned into from bio vs Zerg but doesn't add even more power to the mass raven mech vs Zerg and hopefully doesn't break TvT? I mentioned it before but here it goes: 1- Viking damage buff to help with colossi 2 - Ghost academy build time and cost reduction to make ghost transition faster and easier to include in terran builds. 3 - Thor move speed buff, together with better vikes provides a better answer vs mass mutas. In TvZ bio terrans are transitioning to triple factory, choosing between hellbat or mine, and adding a few thors vs mass muta. With hellbats pushes terrans are also building the armory sooner so a thor buff sounds helpful. For mech maybe an infestor buff can balance things out (but not insta fungal). For TvP the proposition is to allow terran to react faster to templars and more efficiently to colossi. Also make sure to not propose things that help terran but breaks ZvP. Well, 1 would be problematic in general I think. Vikings are pretty good against various things and very standard in TvT and Mech vs Z play. I think that has quite some potential to break something. And with 2, I think Terrans aren't really struggling with the reaction time to HTs. In general 1+2 don't seem like problems too me to be honest. I think Terran can react to Colossi and HTs very well and do some pretty strong midgame pushes at the time when the Protoss builds either of those units. I think Terran rather has troubles when they should take it to the lategame and they know both - Colossi and Templar - are there (amongst other things) but have a hard time fielding something that Colossi/Templar aren't marvelous against. I have heard 3 before. I think this could be handy for lategame bio (thinking about a buff to 2.25), though I doubt it would really help too much with mutalisks unless you buff the Thor to something fast like 2.75. Which I believe is broken, especially with Mech. But... there is no way around it, to make terran better vs colossus HT you must buff either vikings or ghosts, since a buff to medivacs or bio breaks the game. So either a buff to ghosts/viking or give terran some timing before it happens. While for zerg the problem is the "even upgrades baneling speed muta 10 minutes timing"(*sarcasm) that lasts until terran has 3/3. Terran needs something to deal with mutas (viking or thor) or with baneling (widow mine). But a widow mine buff must not affect TvP as much since its already a strong early unit in the matchup. Turning shield damage into norm damage doesn't help with banes... But to be honest all you said makes a lot of sense I think with the mines you can play around a little bit with the radius and look whether you find a relation where it one shots a few extra banes, which could help. My favorite would be a small muta nerf, like theDwf suggests with a lower regeneration. I think it would be cool if for Terran one of the lategame factory/starport units besides the viking/medivac and the early ones hellion/hellbat/mine would be transitionable from bio in both matchups. The Thor is the most promising one in ZvT and something like a small speed buff could be nice. Besides that, it would be cool if of Thor/Tank/BC/Raven, one of them was a really huge threat for Protoss. Currently, Ravens just get fucked over by feedback and storm and are only really descent against the units that a Protoss doesn't build vs bio. BCs have never been strong against blink/feedback as standard, VRs are good against them and Tempests just completely overcounter them. I don't even know how you'd transition into them from bio, given the standard Protoss deathball with blink stalkers and templar and then the Protoss can just wipe them out of the world. Thors are nice, but do not really force anything out of the Protoss. It's just a unit that is overall OK to have, but not something like a Colossus, Templar or Ultralisk that really fucks you up if you don't respect it. And tanks are plainly bad against nearly everything Protoss, besides the opponent charging into a meatshield in front of them with the wrong units. Imo, in making at least one of those units so viable that Protoss has vary its lategame army composition if the Terran goes for that transition is the key to balancing lategame TvP.
But you are nerfing mutas in ZvP.
Its pretty hard to make any spellcaster good vs HT (exceps ghosts) or ground mech vs immortals. I have no idea how this would be possible, i think any buff to make those units viable for TvP makes them broken in TvZ, or even in TvT. Just forget this idea man, the only buff that can make it viable is delete tempest, feedback and immortals and replace with something else.
Wow, how about cooldown yamato o_O long cooldown of course.
And widow mines could have greater splash and slightly reduced damage, so its even-ish for TvP and better for TvZ. but them buff something else vs P. my head hurts
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On July 04 2014 03:49 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 03:36 Big J wrote:On July 04 2014 03:09 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 02:16 Big J wrote:On July 04 2014 01:58 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 00:22 Big J wrote:
Anybody having any interesting idea about a lategame buff for Terran that helps with both Protoss, can be transitioned into from bio vs Zerg but doesn't add even more power to the mass raven mech vs Zerg and hopefully doesn't break TvT? I mentioned it before but here it goes: 1- Viking damage buff to help with colossi 2 - Ghost academy build time and cost reduction to make ghost transition faster and easier to include in terran builds. 3 - Thor move speed buff, together with better vikes provides a better answer vs mass mutas. In TvZ bio terrans are transitioning to triple factory, choosing between hellbat or mine, and adding a few thors vs mass muta. With hellbats pushes terrans are also building the armory sooner so a thor buff sounds helpful. For mech maybe an infestor buff can balance things out (but not insta fungal). For TvP the proposition is to allow terran to react faster to templars and more efficiently to colossi. Also make sure to not propose things that help terran but breaks ZvP. Well, 1 would be problematic in general I think. Vikings are pretty good against various things and very standard in TvT and Mech vs Z play. I think that has quite some potential to break something. And with 2, I think Terrans aren't really struggling with the reaction time to HTs. In general 1+2 don't seem like problems too me to be honest. I think Terran can react to Colossi and HTs very well and do some pretty strong midgame pushes at the time when the Protoss builds either of those units. I think Terran rather has troubles when they should take it to the lategame and they know both - Colossi and Templar - are there (amongst other things) but have a hard time fielding something that Colossi/Templar aren't marvelous against. I have heard 3 before. I think this could be handy for lategame bio (thinking about a buff to 2.25), though I doubt it would really help too much with mutalisks unless you buff the Thor to something fast like 2.75. Which I believe is broken, especially with Mech. But... there is no way around it, to make terran better vs colossus HT you must buff either vikings or ghosts, since a buff to medivacs or bio breaks the game. So either a buff to ghosts/viking or give terran some timing before it happens. While for zerg the problem is the "even upgrades baneling speed muta 10 minutes timing"(*sarcasm) that lasts until terran has 3/3. Terran needs something to deal with mutas (viking or thor) or with baneling (widow mine). But a widow mine buff must not affect TvP as much since its already a strong early unit in the matchup. Turning shield damage into norm damage doesn't help with banes... But to be honest all you said makes a lot of sense I think with the mines you can play around a little bit with the radius and look whether you find a relation where it one shots a few extra banes, which could help. My favorite would be a small muta nerf, like theDwf suggests with a lower regeneration. I think it would be cool if for Terran one of the lategame factory/starport units besides the viking/medivac and the early ones hellion/hellbat/mine would be transitionable from bio in both matchups. The Thor is the most promising one in ZvT and something like a small speed buff could be nice. Besides that, it would be cool if of Thor/Tank/BC/Raven, one of them was a really huge threat for Protoss. Currently, Ravens just get fucked over by feedback and storm and are only really descent against the units that a Protoss doesn't build vs bio. BCs have never been strong against blink/feedback as standard, VRs are good against them and Tempests just completely overcounter them. I don't even know how you'd transition into them from bio, given the standard Protoss deathball with blink stalkers and templar and then the Protoss can just wipe them out of the world. Thors are nice, but do not really force anything out of the Protoss. It's just a unit that is overall OK to have, but not something like a Colossus, Templar or Ultralisk that really fucks you up if you don't respect it. And tanks are plainly bad against nearly everything Protoss, besides the opponent charging into a meatshield in front of them with the wrong units. Imo, in making at least one of those units so viable that Protoss has vary its lategame army composition if the Terran goes for that transition is the key to balancing lategame TvP. But you are nerfing mutas in ZvP. Its pretty hard to make any spellcaster good vs HT (exceps ghosts) or ground mech vs immortals. I have no idea how this would be possible, i think any buff to make those units viable for TvP makes them broken in TvZ, or even in TvT. Just forget this idea man, the only buff that can make it viable is delete tempest, feedback and immortals and replace with something else. Wow, how about cooldown yamato o_O long cooldown of course. And widow mines could have greater splash and slightly reduced damage, so its even-ish for TvP and better for TvZ. but them buff something else vs P. my head hurts
You can always try giving the mech units +damage vs shields -> doesn't break TvT and TvZ?
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On July 04 2014 03:49 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 03:36 Big J wrote:On July 04 2014 03:09 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 02:16 Big J wrote:On July 04 2014 01:58 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 00:22 Big J wrote:
Anybody having any interesting idea about a lategame buff for Terran that helps with both Protoss, can be transitioned into from bio vs Zerg but doesn't add even more power to the mass raven mech vs Zerg and hopefully doesn't break TvT? I mentioned it before but here it goes: 1- Viking damage buff to help with colossi 2 - Ghost academy build time and cost reduction to make ghost transition faster and easier to include in terran builds. 3 - Thor move speed buff, together with better vikes provides a better answer vs mass mutas. In TvZ bio terrans are transitioning to triple factory, choosing between hellbat or mine, and adding a few thors vs mass muta. With hellbats pushes terrans are also building the armory sooner so a thor buff sounds helpful. For mech maybe an infestor buff can balance things out (but not insta fungal). For TvP the proposition is to allow terran to react faster to templars and more efficiently to colossi. Also make sure to not propose things that help terran but breaks ZvP. Well, 1 would be problematic in general I think. Vikings are pretty good against various things and very standard in TvT and Mech vs Z play. I think that has quite some potential to break something. And with 2, I think Terrans aren't really struggling with the reaction time to HTs. In general 1+2 don't seem like problems too me to be honest. I think Terran can react to Colossi and HTs very well and do some pretty strong midgame pushes at the time when the Protoss builds either of those units. I think Terran rather has troubles when they should take it to the lategame and they know both - Colossi and Templar - are there (amongst other things) but have a hard time fielding something that Colossi/Templar aren't marvelous against. I have heard 3 before. I think this could be handy for lategame bio (thinking about a buff to 2.25), though I doubt it would really help too much with mutalisks unless you buff the Thor to something fast like 2.75. Which I believe is broken, especially with Mech. But... there is no way around it, to make terran better vs colossus HT you must buff either vikings or ghosts, since a buff to medivacs or bio breaks the game. So either a buff to ghosts/viking or give terran some timing before it happens. While for zerg the problem is the "even upgrades baneling speed muta 10 minutes timing"(*sarcasm) that lasts until terran has 3/3. Terran needs something to deal with mutas (viking or thor) or with baneling (widow mine). But a widow mine buff must not affect TvP as much since its already a strong early unit in the matchup. Turning shield damage into norm damage doesn't help with banes... But to be honest all you said makes a lot of sense I think with the mines you can play around a little bit with the radius and look whether you find a relation where it one shots a few extra banes, which could help. My favorite would be a small muta nerf, like theDwf suggests with a lower regeneration. I think it would be cool if for Terran one of the lategame factory/starport units besides the viking/medivac and the early ones hellion/hellbat/mine would be transitionable from bio in both matchups. The Thor is the most promising one in ZvT and something like a small speed buff could be nice. Besides that, it would be cool if of Thor/Tank/BC/Raven, one of them was a really huge threat for Protoss. Currently, Ravens just get fucked over by feedback and storm and are only really descent against the units that a Protoss doesn't build vs bio. BCs have never been strong against blink/feedback as standard, VRs are good against them and Tempests just completely overcounter them. I don't even know how you'd transition into them from bio, given the standard Protoss deathball with blink stalkers and templar and then the Protoss can just wipe them out of the world. Thors are nice, but do not really force anything out of the Protoss. It's just a unit that is overall OK to have, but not something like a Colossus, Templar or Ultralisk that really fucks you up if you don't respect it. And tanks are plainly bad against nearly everything Protoss, besides the opponent charging into a meatshield in front of them with the wrong units. Imo, in making at least one of those units so viable that Protoss has vary its lategame army composition if the Terran goes for that transition is the key to balancing lategame TvP. But you are nerfing mutas in ZvP. Its pretty hard to make any spellcaster good vs HT (exceps ghosts) or ground mech vs immortals. I have no idea how this would be possible, i think any buff to make those units viable for TvP makes them broken in TvZ, or even in TvT. Just forget this idea man, the only buff that can make it viable is delete tempest, feedback and immortals and replace with something else. Wow, how about cooldown yamato o_O long cooldown of course. And widow mines could have greater splash and slightly reduced damage, so its even-ish for TvP and better for TvZ. but them buff something else vs P. my head hurts
nerf phoenix range by 1 could just do the job vs Protoss.
Making Mech better vs Immortals isn't actually that hard imo:
- dwf's suggestion about changing hardened shields so it only halves the damage for shots >20
- turn the tank into a double attack instead of a single one, e.g (18+7vs armored)*2
- +shield damage on Mech units
- remove the armored tag from Thors (so they are only mechanical+massive)
none of those would really change anything TvZ apart from +0 Tanks oneshoting +1armor zerglings (for which you currently need +1tanks). Which is hardly troublesome, a Terran using tanks will upgrade them anyways.
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What about letting hellbats into bunkers? That should hold off some zealots.
On July 04 2014 03:49 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 03:36 Big J wrote:On July 04 2014 03:09 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 02:16 Big J wrote:On July 04 2014 01:58 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 00:22 Big J wrote:
Anybody having any interesting idea about a lategame buff for Terran that helps with both Protoss, can be transitioned into from bio vs Zerg but doesn't add even more power to the mass raven mech vs Zerg and hopefully doesn't break TvT? I mentioned it before but here it goes: 1- Viking damage buff to help with colossi 2 - Ghost academy build time and cost reduction to make ghost transition faster and easier to include in terran builds. 3 - Thor move speed buff, together with better vikes provides a better answer vs mass mutas. In TvZ bio terrans are transitioning to triple factory, choosing between hellbat or mine, and adding a few thors vs mass muta. With hellbats pushes terrans are also building the armory sooner so a thor buff sounds helpful. For mech maybe an infestor buff can balance things out (but not insta fungal). For TvP the proposition is to allow terran to react faster to templars and more efficiently to colossi. Also make sure to not propose things that help terran but breaks ZvP. Well, 1 would be problematic in general I think. Vikings are pretty good against various things and very standard in TvT and Mech vs Z play. I think that has quite some potential to break something. And with 2, I think Terrans aren't really struggling with the reaction time to HTs. In general 1+2 don't seem like problems too me to be honest. I think Terran can react to Colossi and HTs very well and do some pretty strong midgame pushes at the time when the Protoss builds either of those units. I think Terran rather has troubles when they should take it to the lategame and they know both - Colossi and Templar - are there (amongst other things) but have a hard time fielding something that Colossi/Templar aren't marvelous against. I have heard 3 before. I think this could be handy for lategame bio (thinking about a buff to 2.25), though I doubt it would really help too much with mutalisks unless you buff the Thor to something fast like 2.75. Which I believe is broken, especially with Mech. But... there is no way around it, to make terran better vs colossus HT you must buff either vikings or ghosts, since a buff to medivacs or bio breaks the game. So either a buff to ghosts/viking or give terran some timing before it happens. While for zerg the problem is the "even upgrades baneling speed muta 10 minutes timing"(*sarcasm) that lasts until terran has 3/3. Terran needs something to deal with mutas (viking or thor) or with baneling (widow mine). But a widow mine buff must not affect TvP as much since its already a strong early unit in the matchup. Turning shield damage into norm damage doesn't help with banes... But to be honest all you said makes a lot of sense I think with the mines you can play around a little bit with the radius and look whether you find a relation where it one shots a few extra banes, which could help. My favorite would be a small muta nerf, like theDwf suggests with a lower regeneration. I think it would be cool if for Terran one of the lategame factory/starport units besides the viking/medivac and the early ones hellion/hellbat/mine would be transitionable from bio in both matchups. The Thor is the most promising one in ZvT and something like a small speed buff could be nice. Besides that, it would be cool if of Thor/Tank/BC/Raven, one of them was a really huge threat for Protoss. Currently, Ravens just get fucked over by feedback and storm and are only really descent against the units that a Protoss doesn't build vs bio. BCs have never been strong against blink/feedback as standard, VRs are good against them and Tempests just completely overcounter them. I don't even know how you'd transition into them from bio, given the standard Protoss deathball with blink stalkers and templar and then the Protoss can just wipe them out of the world. Thors are nice, but do not really force anything out of the Protoss. It's just a unit that is overall OK to have, but not something like a Colossus, Templar or Ultralisk that really fucks you up if you don't respect it. And tanks are plainly bad against nearly everything Protoss, besides the opponent charging into a meatshield in front of them with the wrong units. Imo, in making at least one of those units so viable that Protoss has vary its lategame army composition if the Terran goes for that transition is the key to balancing lategame TvP. But you are nerfing mutas in ZvP. Its pretty hard to make any spellcaster good vs HT (exceps ghosts) or ground mech vs immortals. I have no idea how this would be possible, i think any buff to make those units viable for TvP makes them broken in TvZ, or even in TvT. Just forget this idea man, the only buff that can make it viable is delete tempest, feedback and immortals and replace with something else. Wow, how about cooldown yamato o_O long cooldown of course. And widow mines could have greater splash and slightly reduced damage, so its even-ish for TvP and better for TvZ. but them buff something else vs P. my head hurts
You could try making some units immune to feedback (with an upgrade), not ghosts obviously but banshees, BCs and ravens. If there are units immune to abduct you can also introduce new immunities. A slightly more complicated game doesn't hurt if overall gameplay profits from it. Or instead of immunity that upgrade could just reduce damage when feedbacked, preferably limited to mechanical units; I wanna see those full energy ghosts die.
Feedback in such abundance is a weird ability to have in a RTS. I'd like to see this "terrible, terrible damage"-factor reduced to open up more possibilities and get actual fights instead of stomps out of it.
On a not totally unrelated note: maybe queens should get a switch to turn off their energy bars, sacrificing abilities, if Zergs want to use them as dedicated anti-air vP since hydras have no staying power lategame and getting instagibbed by feedback is not quite fun. Just throwing it out there.
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Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 21:42 TheDwf wrote:Hmm, weird. I could have sworn there were no plans for extra changes in the future. Did someone write a 40 pages essay about Terran woes or what? Medivac
Medivac harass has been getting weaker since the beginning of HotS due to players improving at defending against them. If we increase the strength of Medivacs, we’d not only help out Terran on both matchups, but also help provide even more action-packed games to watch. We wonder if buffing the unload speed or increasing the duration of the speed boost slightly would help in a positive way. I understand your intention but no. The Medivac is already the best unit in the Terran arsenal, and for that sole reason you should not further buff it. You also have to consider that ironically, the race that would suffer the most from this change would be… Terran. Doomdrops are already dominant in Marines/Tanks mirrors, and with that kind of change odds are such mirrors would be further dumbed down to a volatile game of "who first loads and hides 6 full Medivacs, boost into production, gg". There are other ways to reach your goal of a more dynamic midgame (in TvP) without changing the Medivac. More below. Widow Mine
Widow Mines are quite core in both TvP and TvZ. They’re also one of the most exciting units to watch and create lots of diverse moments depending on the players’ interaction with them within each engagement. We’re currently considering a slight increase to the splash radius of Widow Mines, which we believe could be a good direction to explore. Good. Restoring some strength to the Mine is absolutely crucial for bio play in TvZ. As for the way you want to do it… Assuming you intend to create a fourth AoE zone between 1.75 and 2 radius, the damage in the second and third zone should also be increased from 20/10 to 30/15. The 30 part in the second zone is particularly critical to one-shot banes. See below the 3 states of the Mine (at release; post-nerf; after the proposed buff) vs Zerg, respectively in the areas 0 – 1.25 | 1.25 – 1.50 | 1.50 – 1.75 | 1.75 – 2. 40 | 40 | 40 | 0
40 | 20 | 10 | 0
40 | 30 | 15 | 10 Note that if you want to leave TvP untouched, you can play upon the Drilling Claws variable (searched in TvZ, but not in TvP), i.e. make it so Drilling Claws unlocks the buff, partially or totally. Bonus damage to shields can, in the same way, be tweaked accordingly so the total damage remains unchanged. It would be unwise to discourage Protoss players from playing Templars, a style superior to Colossus play in every way for the quality of games (amount of action, micro, multitasking). I don't believe Mines killed the Templar style, so time should be left for Templar play to make its return.
First, there are 2 ways to address a given problem; in absolute or relatively. Example: the Tempest is too strong in lategame PvT. There are 3 options to deal with this: 1. Weakening the stats (cost, supply, range, damage, armor, etc.) of the Tempest itself. 2. Making it so Protoss have a harder time reaching Tempests (i.e. give Terran extra ways to slow their development towards lategame), or improving units used against the Tempest. 3. Any combination of the above. With this in mind, I advocate the following changes to balance bio play: Stim
Research time decreased to 140 seconds, down from 170.
Target: general.
Reverting the stim nerf would yield numerous benefits, fixing a lot of the current Terran issues and opening a few options in the early game:
1. Terran would have stim earlier to defend numerous Protoss timings (and a few Zerg ones) in the early game. In particular, bear in mind there are 2 particularly good Blink maps in the ones you introduced for the next season.
2. In TvP, Terran would threaten an earlier stim timing, forcing Protoss macro builds to concede more units in the early game and thus slowing the speed at which they tech. In return, this means there would be more room for drop play in midgame because Protoss would not enter the phase with as many resources available and as much tech advance to install the perfect anti-drop system (Observers, early Blink, energy on MSC, etc.).
3. In TvZ, an earlier stim timing (and by repercussion an earlier CS timing) would boost a bit the "2-bases timing into third" openings, which are currently mostly dead because they lack power against 3 hatch builds.
To revert this nerf, you don't even need to swallow your pride since the change occurred almost 3 years ago in a completely different environment. Without reverting the stim nerf, a Photon Overcharge nerf would be needed to balance TvP, i.e. a change with a larger impact in PvZ and PvP. If you have only one change to do for the sake of TvP, it's 100% this one. I'm lazy, so I will just sum up in 5 words what I could say in 5 pages:
PLEASE REVERT THE STIM NERF.
Mutalisk
Health rate regeneration decreased to 1 HP every 2 seconds, down from 1 HP/second.
[For reference, other Zerg units regenerate at the rate of 1 HP every 3.7 seconds.]
Target: TvZ
Toning down muta regen is necessary, regardless of the Mine buff you use. Even with the old Mines it would have been needed. Terran's only answer to mass mutas is to limit the damage, drive them away and bandage their wounds. If mutas heal too fast, the infernal cycle never ceases (preventing the recovery phase) and Terran cannot fight back for the initiative. With a slower healing rate:
1. Terran would have a longer window of tranquillity after the passing of the storm and could start counter-attacking earlier to capitalize on wounded mutas.
2. Mutalisk harassment would come with an adjusted risk/reward ratio. Thor volleys and Mine hits would matter more.
3. More Mutalisks would also fall throughout the game, resulting in an inferior accumulation.
4. Sloppiness would be punished (the current regeneration rate is too forgiving).
5. The days of constant battles with Zerg being on the verge of losing at each wave are long gone anyway.
The Phoenix (range, either native or the bonus given by the Fleet beacon upgrade) and the Spore (bonus damage to bio) can be adjusted accordingly to deal with the impact on ZvP and ZvZ. On top of a Mine buff in TvZ, those two are absolutely critical.
Some extra ideas, with less impact, to help in various domains: Tactical Nuke
Cost changed from 100/100 to 50/150.
Damage to buildings increased to 750 | 500 | 250, up from 500 | 250 | 125. Target: lategame TvP, lategame TvZ. Nukes are extinct in TvZ and underused in lategame TvP because of their cost. Since bio play commonly floats gas if you take your 8 gas, what better way to spend the resource? Damage to buildings is increased so Terrans have a better way to cripple Zerg and Protoss' economy in lategame. Nitro Packs
Researched from: Tech Lab Barracks
Cost: 150m 150g 140s
Requirements: Factory.
Effects: increases the Reaper's movement speed to 4.25 and restores their WoL attack.[WoL attack: same as the current one except +5 bonus damage to Light; secondary attack against buildings: 30 (+3). Both range 5.] Target: lategame TvP, lategame TvZ. Fairly straighforward. As of now, the Reaper has absolutely no use past early game. With this upgrade, it could be used in lategame, particularly in TvP to defend Zealots/DTs harassement and pressure remote expands without committing Medivacs. Ghost
Cost changed from 200/100 to 175/100.
Snipe damage changed from 25 (+25 to Psionic) to 45 (-10 to Massive).Target: lategame TvP, lategame TvZ. Part of the lategame TvP woes is that Ghosts are extremely expensive; this would help a little without impacting too much the unknown that is currently Templar play in midgame. Snipe was overnerfed: an overtrained elite marksman cannot even one-shot a Zergling anymore, really? Creep Tumor
Sight range decreased to 9, down from 11.Target: TvZ. Creep passively provides too much vision, especially by lategame. Less vision on the outskirts means increased possibilities for drop to travel unseen, and overall less map control. Tempest
Bonus damage to Massive targets decreased to 20 (+0), down from 50 (+2).Target: lategame TvP. Battlecruisers die to Tempests in 7 shots from 15 range. Fully upgraded Tempests deal 95 damage to Massive air targets. 95, seriously? I am no ZvP expert but I am sure this is overkill against broods. Colossi are part of a mirror so it doesn't matter. Battlecruisers were already extremely rare, no reason to completely kill off the option with Tempests.
Now, for the question of mech in TvP. I don't have energy left to write an essay, but something drastic should be tested (with real games between pros) if you finally want to see mech play in TvP: Siege Tank
+20 damage to Massive targets in Siege Mode.
Siege Tanks underperfom against Archons. Mech cannot be viable in TvP if Ghosts are necessary to vaguely compete. The mech path has to be autonomous.
This would increase the performance of Tanks in Siege Mode against: Archons (much needed), Colossi (could do with 1-2 less shots), Thors (irrelevant) and Ultralisks (somewhat needed in the open).
Immortal
Hardened shields has been reworked:
1. Attacks dealing from 10 to 20 damage are still reduced to 10 (unchanged).
2. Attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of being reduced to 10.
The reasoning is simple: Immortals dramatically overperform against Tanks. Impact on units affected in non-mirror: The impact on targeted units would be as follows: With +0 attack TanksArchon: from 11 to 7. Colossus: from 8 to 6. Immortal: from 14 to 9. (Ultralisk: from 11 to 8.) With +3 attack TanksArchon: from 9 to 6. Colossus: from 6 to 5. Immortal: from 14 to 7. (Ultralisk: from 9 to 7.) Consequences1. When nearing max, mech ground armies would be better than Protoss ground armies, which respects the logic of the disparity in mobility/reproducibility between the two sides. This would also force Protoss to actively harass/cripple Terran, i.e. the reverse situation with bio play. 2. The air transitions, problematic as of now, mostly rely on the superior Protoss midgame against mech, and by repercussion would be affected by those changes: teching Tempests would not be a formality if you actually had to fear a huge Tank push. Once again, these changes should be tested on a specific map with some games between Terran and Protoss pros.
@TheDwf
Love your analysis, man. Which changes do you consider the most important? Would it be the mines/stim/mutas trifecta?
That seems mostly Zerg related. Do you think its TvZ that needs the most help?
I personally think the tank change you suggest is the most interesting one, maybe not the most needed tho. It is the only one that I think buffs unorthodox/late game oriented play for Terran. I'd be in favor of having to research Siege Mode if this buffed Siege shots too much (I don't think it does, but still).
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Just bring the warhounds back; problem solved.
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On July 04 2014 04:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 03:49 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 03:36 Big J wrote:On July 04 2014 03:09 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 02:16 Big J wrote:On July 04 2014 01:58 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 00:22 Big J wrote:
Anybody having any interesting idea about a lategame buff for Terran that helps with both Protoss, can be transitioned into from bio vs Zerg but doesn't add even more power to the mass raven mech vs Zerg and hopefully doesn't break TvT? I mentioned it before but here it goes: 1- Viking damage buff to help with colossi 2 - Ghost academy build time and cost reduction to make ghost transition faster and easier to include in terran builds. 3 - Thor move speed buff, together with better vikes provides a better answer vs mass mutas. In TvZ bio terrans are transitioning to triple factory, choosing between hellbat or mine, and adding a few thors vs mass muta. With hellbats pushes terrans are also building the armory sooner so a thor buff sounds helpful. For mech maybe an infestor buff can balance things out (but not insta fungal). For TvP the proposition is to allow terran to react faster to templars and more efficiently to colossi. Also make sure to not propose things that help terran but breaks ZvP. Well, 1 would be problematic in general I think. Vikings are pretty good against various things and very standard in TvT and Mech vs Z play. I think that has quite some potential to break something. And with 2, I think Terrans aren't really struggling with the reaction time to HTs. In general 1+2 don't seem like problems too me to be honest. I think Terran can react to Colossi and HTs very well and do some pretty strong midgame pushes at the time when the Protoss builds either of those units. I think Terran rather has troubles when they should take it to the lategame and they know both - Colossi and Templar - are there (amongst other things) but have a hard time fielding something that Colossi/Templar aren't marvelous against. I have heard 3 before. I think this could be handy for lategame bio (thinking about a buff to 2.25), though I doubt it would really help too much with mutalisks unless you buff the Thor to something fast like 2.75. Which I believe is broken, especially with Mech. But... there is no way around it, to make terran better vs colossus HT you must buff either vikings or ghosts, since a buff to medivacs or bio breaks the game. So either a buff to ghosts/viking or give terran some timing before it happens. While for zerg the problem is the "even upgrades baneling speed muta 10 minutes timing"(*sarcasm) that lasts until terran has 3/3. Terran needs something to deal with mutas (viking or thor) or with baneling (widow mine). But a widow mine buff must not affect TvP as much since its already a strong early unit in the matchup. Turning shield damage into norm damage doesn't help with banes... But to be honest all you said makes a lot of sense I think with the mines you can play around a little bit with the radius and look whether you find a relation where it one shots a few extra banes, which could help. My favorite would be a small muta nerf, like theDwf suggests with a lower regeneration. I think it would be cool if for Terran one of the lategame factory/starport units besides the viking/medivac and the early ones hellion/hellbat/mine would be transitionable from bio in both matchups. The Thor is the most promising one in ZvT and something like a small speed buff could be nice. Besides that, it would be cool if of Thor/Tank/BC/Raven, one of them was a really huge threat for Protoss. Currently, Ravens just get fucked over by feedback and storm and are only really descent against the units that a Protoss doesn't build vs bio. BCs have never been strong against blink/feedback as standard, VRs are good against them and Tempests just completely overcounter them. I don't even know how you'd transition into them from bio, given the standard Protoss deathball with blink stalkers and templar and then the Protoss can just wipe them out of the world. Thors are nice, but do not really force anything out of the Protoss. It's just a unit that is overall OK to have, but not something like a Colossus, Templar or Ultralisk that really fucks you up if you don't respect it. And tanks are plainly bad against nearly everything Protoss, besides the opponent charging into a meatshield in front of them with the wrong units. Imo, in making at least one of those units so viable that Protoss has vary its lategame army composition if the Terran goes for that transition is the key to balancing lategame TvP. But you are nerfing mutas in ZvP. Its pretty hard to make any spellcaster good vs HT (exceps ghosts) or ground mech vs immortals. I have no idea how this would be possible, i think any buff to make those units viable for TvP makes them broken in TvZ, or even in TvT. Just forget this idea man, the only buff that can make it viable is delete tempest, feedback and immortals and replace with something else. Wow, how about cooldown yamato o_O long cooldown of course. And widow mines could have greater splash and slightly reduced damage, so its even-ish for TvP and better for TvZ. but them buff something else vs P. my head hurts nerf phoenix range by 1 could just do the job vs Protoss. Making Mech better vs Immortals isn't actually that hard imo: - dwf's suggestion about changing hardened shields so it only halves the damage for shots >20 - turn the tank into a double attack instead of a single one, e.g (18+7vs armored)*2 - +shield damage on Mech units - remove the armored tag from Thors (so they are only mechanical+massive) none of those would really change anything TvZ apart from +0 Tanks oneshoting +1armor zerglings (for which you currently need +1tanks). Which is hardly troublesome, a Terran using tanks will upgrade them anyways.
+1FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF(hex)
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On July 04 2014 03:34 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 03:15 iamcaustic wrote:On July 04 2014 02:42 eightym wrote:On July 04 2014 02:02 cheekymonkey wrote:
it's funny to think of that a lot of people voted no to both I'm a terran and I voted no for the medivacs. That idea is just stupid. I feel it will considerably reduce the viability of mech in TvT. I almost voted no for the mine because I don't want Blizzard thinking that's a sufficient buff. Blizzard only updates the game once a year and they don't fix their mistakes. The last thing I want is a meaningless buff. I'm also a Terran and voted no to both. The medivac change is incredibly dumb and would have negative repercussions in TvT, while the widow mine is essentially semi-random; putting Terran's viability in the arms of random game design isn't cool IMO. Widow mines are a neat inclusion, but they shouldn't be the thing that balances the race so long as they're designed the way they are. All Terran needs is some viable early game options to punish Z/P greed, and the game will sort itself out. Some people think this means pigeon-holing Terran into being an all-in race, but the actual result is a shift to more conservative openings from the other races which has a snowball effect for the rest of the game. Late-game Terran units probably need some adjustment too, but I'd rather see Blizzard smooth out the overall game first, then target late-game after seeing what happens when Terrans enter the late-game on equal footing, rather than always being behind. Make maps smaller and we are going to see a big difference. Why are all the maps fricking huge nowdays? season 2 was just... wow. All maps better for zerg on TvZ.
Ya, no kidding, the maps just get bigger and bigger.
Spoiler alert; here is a new map for season 4.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 02 2014 02:09 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
"Let's buff the two most annoying Terran units, and do nothing to promote other styles of play."
Ok.
Medivacs are annoying? Terran needs Widow Mines for TvZ, and the other races better harassment options than Terran.
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On July 04 2014 05:42 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 03:34 Superbanana wrote:On July 04 2014 03:15 iamcaustic wrote:On July 04 2014 02:42 eightym wrote:On July 04 2014 02:02 cheekymonkey wrote:
it's funny to think of that a lot of people voted no to both I'm a terran and I voted no for the medivacs. That idea is just stupid. I feel it will considerably reduce the viability of mech in TvT. I almost voted no for the mine because I don't want Blizzard thinking that's a sufficient buff. Blizzard only updates the game once a year and they don't fix their mistakes. The last thing I want is a meaningless buff. I'm also a Terran and voted no to both. The medivac change is incredibly dumb and would have negative repercussions in TvT, while the widow mine is essentially semi-random; putting Terran's viability in the arms of random game design isn't cool IMO. Widow mines are a neat inclusion, but they shouldn't be the thing that balances the race so long as they're designed the way they are. All Terran needs is some viable early game options to punish Z/P greed, and the game will sort itself out. Some people think this means pigeon-holing Terran into being an all-in race, but the actual result is a shift to more conservative openings from the other races which has a snowball effect for the rest of the game. Late-game Terran units probably need some adjustment too, but I'd rather see Blizzard smooth out the overall game first, then target late-game after seeing what happens when Terrans enter the late-game on equal footing, rather than always being behind. Make maps smaller and we are going to see a big difference. Why are all the maps fricking huge nowdays? season 2 was just... wow. All maps better for zerg on TvZ. Ya, no kidding, the maps just get bigger and bigger. Spoiler alert; here is a new map for season 4. + Show Spoiler +
I don't really have a problem with big maps. I think big maps are more interesting than small maps (I'm looking at you, steps of war). And they lead to longer, more macro-style games.
What I have a problem with is Terran not being able to function well on big maps. In my opinion, the races should be balanced so that map size does not matter.
On July 04 2014 03:16 EEJR wrote:
Give hellions the spider mine upgrade from vultures+buff Siege tanks in some way. That's the kind of change I'd like to be done with terran (take it with a grain of salt though because I rarely play HotS).
#BWGazms 
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On July 04 2014 02:38 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 02:04 Big J wrote:hm, do the reaper and nuke changes actually do something useful? Haha, it's funny because the first reaction I had from a Protoss poster was that my upgrade giving back WoL-like Reapers would result in something... too strong! Obviously those changes are not a massive upheaval, but yes I do think they would help filling various holes in lategame bio play. Show nested quote +The reaper would be kind of the nitro-WoL reaper with regen then, right? Is that of any use in the lategame? Well, the uses could/would be: - dealing with Zealots/DTs raids; - secure an expand against Warpgate harass; - clear proxy Pylons on the map; - having the possibility to harass expands without committing Medivacs. Depending on the map you might even have access to some technology buildings; - possibly snipe Templar flanks. Show nested quote +The nuke changes sounds like a fancy thing that would exclusicely help after the Terran gets in a stalemate position. Hardly anything of value imo. I guess it would help Mech vs static defenses in the endgame, but that's where I don't think T needs help. The Nuke is already used by some players like Happy or MMA in lategame TvP, so I'm sure it wouldn't be only a gimmick. One of Terran's problems in lategame bio is to be able to damage Zerg and Protoss' economy and/or to keep enough initiative to slowly build a better army (e. g. more Ghosts/Vikings in TvP, more Marauders/Thors in TvZ, etc.), and better nukes would help with both. I also changed the gas cost to 150 so bio play can use the almost inevitable gas bank, plus that way it would have worse synergy with mech. Show nested quote +Ghost could work and I guess it is the perfect unit for the job. Though personally I don't like that particular suggestion. Like fungal, snipe shouldn't be balanced around damage values I think. It's a little too much of a "you are in range, I click and win"-thing imo, if it is applyable against a broad variety of units.
Given that blizzard won't redesign snipe in some skillshot or whatever ability with higher damage, what about just making ghosts better combatants? Like plain damage value and/or cost buffs? (e.g. damage from 10+10 to 20) Well, since broods are no longer the core Hive unit against Terran, I don't think a Snipe buff would turn lategame into a click contest. In TvP it would be nice to have the option to use Ghosts' remaining energy to dispose of Zealots faster and/or kill them while they're being warped nearby. In TvZ, I'm not convinced there would be more than minor uses for Snipe. Maybe on mutas. For your propositions (lesser cost and/or more damage to non-Light targets), why not but have fun trying to convince Protoss players. Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 02:35 Tsubbi wrote:
also dwf suggestions were quite good imo until i realized he wanted to implement all of them haha Never said that.
So like a upgrade that could give some help to a 50/50 cost unit....sure 
25 nrg for 45 dmg^^.... however i'll even drop the ghost mineral cost to 150, gas is the real issue and also time production
none of these changes will really help terran with his main issues(scout/aoe/late/(mech))
i liked this one Creep Tumor Sight range decreased to 9, down from 11. but i think to lock creep spread stacking will be more effective.
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My personal opinion:
1. Buff siege tanks to beta damage levels. Increase cost if necessary.
2. Reduce marine dps or hp - I'd rather hp. Ditch combat shields, give a flat 40 hp.
I doubt people care for the rationale behind this but I'll offer if it's requested. I sincerely think it will make for a far more interesting game while putting Terran in a significantly better position in terms of available strategic options and late game strength without making early game completely broken.
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On July 04 2014 09:04 Mjolnir wrote:
My personal opinion:
1. Buff siege tanks to beta damage levels. Increase cost if necessary.
2. Reduce marine dps or hp - I'd rather hp. Ditch combat shields, give a flat 40 hp.
I doubt people care for the rationale behind this but I'll offer if it's requested. I sincerely think it will make for a far more interesting game while putting Terran in a significantly better position in terms of available strategic options and late game strength without making early game completely broken.
40 hp so they can get wrecked by colossi and TvT will turn into mech vs mech?
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On July 04 2014 06:12 codonbyte wrote:
I don't really have a problem with big maps. I think big maps are more interesting than small maps (I'm looking at you, steps of war). And they lead to longer, more macro-style games.
What I have a problem with is Terran not being able to function well on big maps. In my opinion, the races should be balanced so that map size does not matter.
More interesting maps are more interesting, it's very easy to do something like Korhal City or Alterzim, and just have huge flat plains with a few holes in it, that's boring. I do agree that map size should not affect balance as much, but that's a luxury really. There are worse problems facing maps and this game.
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I'm all up for adding stuff that will spice up Terran, but aren't there other better options? I mean, why buff units that are already a big part of Terran army instead of making more useful other stuff that isn't used as much? Also, maybe I'm wrong but isn't Terran struggling in the late game? Why add more possibilities that look more oriented to mid game? The medivac buff would also have an impact on TvT and by doing it you might be limiting mech. I'd love to see a buff to ghosts (maybe cheaper or that they came with an upgrade), that would help create new timings maybe for mid-late TvP without really affecting other matchups...
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On July 04 2014 05:46 Genus.KhaoTiK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 02:09 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
"Let's buff the two most annoying Terran units, and do nothing to promote other styles of play."
Ok. Medivacs are annoying? Terran needs Widow Mines for TvZ, and the other races better harassment options than Terran.
They didnt need widow mines in WoL for vZ.
Let's talk about siege tanks problems with protoss for a bit. Zealots are light, and they've divided categories into armored, light, bio, psi, etc. Previously it was simply large, medium, and small. Zealots were medium, meaning siege tanks did at least 75% damage to them, unlike zerglings that only took 50% damage.
I still hate the viper tongue lick with a fiery passion. It looks stupid and makes little sense.
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