|
On July 03 2014 19:09 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 12:24 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 03 2014 09:22 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vikings + Thors are Goliaths. They perform the same function. Stop asking for a unit called a goliath when there are two units which do what a Goliath does. If you like a game that features a Goliath go watch Broodwar. You're not going to see BW style mech in SC2 anyway simply due to how resource and income works and how army movement works. To be fair, before the upgrade merger this wasn't true. Goliaths benefited from ground upgrades while Vikings did not making BW mech anti air vastly superior. Now it's more even i guess. EDIT: the Thor is shit anti air except vs. Mutas Goliaths were fairly shit AA too.. hence BW mech building turrets all over the map, which you can't really do in SC2 as it takes all your crappy tanks to defend any particular angle...
Yes, this is correct. Goliath was only cost effecient against every air unit in the game, really crappy AA unit to say the least
|
On July 03 2014 19:09 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 12:24 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 03 2014 09:22 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vikings + Thors are Goliaths. They perform the same function. Stop asking for a unit called a goliath when there are two units which do what a Goliath does. If you like a game that features a Goliath go watch Broodwar. You're not going to see BW style mech in SC2 anyway simply due to how resource and income works and how army movement works. To be fair, before the upgrade merger this wasn't true. Goliaths benefited from ground upgrades while Vikings did not making BW mech anti air vastly superior. Now it's more even i guess. EDIT: the Thor is shit anti air except vs. Mutas Goliaths were fairly shit AA too.. hence BW mech building turrets all over the map, which you can't really do in SC2 as it takes all your crappy tanks to defend any particular angle...
I agree, i'm not saying they were 100 times better or anything.
Another aspect to consider is that Vikings need separate production facilities. But the fact that they fly makes up for this.
|
On July 03 2014 19:23 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 19:15 Rainmansc wrote:On July 03 2014 13:19 Whitewing wrote:On July 03 2014 09:57 codonbyte wrote:
Edit: LOVE your idea about an upgrade for increasing thor splash radius. ATM I believe thor splash is the smallest splash radius in the game, which is weird considering how big and expensive thors are and how slow they shoot. It would solve the TvZ issue. I'd like to also see a battlecruiser buff. It wouldn't have a major impact on TvT or TvP, which is good as well. How are people still complaining about TvZ? Since the hellbat buff, koreans are winning WAY more in TvZ. Alot of top Z's in korea are losing alot vs T the last weeks. Buffing terran more early game is not the way to fix the problem... Who is talking about early game buffs? Koreans winning alot more TvZ? Source/data please.
Think he's referring to Taeja. After all he's undefeated. Oh if only we could all play like him and Maru.
|
No im not referring to Taeja. I fellow the korean ladder very closely. Before the patch the top GM Zs barely lost to T's. + There was alot more Ts in top GM korea since the patch.
If you would talk with any pro korean then you would realize that it's not like some people stlil claim it to be here...
|
On July 03 2014 19:55 Rainmansc wrote:
No im not referring to Taeja. I fellow the korean ladder very closely. Before the patch the top GM Zs barely lost to T's. + There was alot more Ts in top GM korea since the patch.
If you would talk with any pro korean then you would realize that it's not like some people stlil claim it to be here...
GM has been locked since the patch. There can really only occur a minimal difference due to inactivity of GM players.
29% of players in GM Korea are terrans compared to 35% zergs.
|
Goliaths were shit anti-air? That sounds strange, you should compare their DPS cost for cost with the Thor's DPS and see what happens, there is a giant difference.
|
WTF, I'm a terran player and I don't want these buffs.
|
Why on earth buff units that are already the most used units? What about other terran units?
|
On July 02 2014 02:29 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 02:23 Nimix wrote:
Why don't they just un nerf widow mines? They never just undo a stupid change they did (oracle speed heheheh)... Buffing medivacs would be pretty stupid though imo. They were too strong and zerg had a pretty hard to time to go Hive for 3-3 upgrades. 90% of all terran victories were in the space of time between terran 3-3 upgrades and zerg finally has 3-3 too. This is just boring if you always win in the same scenario and space of time. Other 10% were if zerg was unable to hold one wave of mmmm (doesnt matter if 1st or 27th wave), zerg is pretty dead.
After the overseer speed patch this wasn't too true anymore; zergs with good micro and setups started to win pretty handily vs this style (I.E. the DRG vs Innovation series IIRC). The nerf was way too drastic, with new widow mines basically doesn't require any micro to be countered, it will detonate on ling or on overseers, pretty much never kill banes, and therefore loses a lot of its utility. Maybe they are kind of cost efficient, but you have to remember that terran can't trade only cost efficiently at best; this way you never win (don't force enough banes, muta cloud getting too big, you've got no good late game, and zerg had more ressources to invest in units than you because less production to build).
I think the TvZ before the mine nerf was more interesting than the one now, where it's half hellbat all in half pray than you don't get a bad engagement and lose. Widow mines don't allow come backs anymore like banes do.
|
On July 03 2014 17:39 eusoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 09:57 codonbyte wrote:On July 03 2014 09:49 Whitewing wrote:On July 03 2014 09:26 codonbyte wrote:On July 02 2014 03:00 r691175002 wrote:On July 02 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:Mutas are still nearly immortal. If you can't kill them in 1 hit it doesn't matter how much anti-air they have.
And ZvZ needs a patch. And I liked PvP more when oracles were slower. I agree with this man. Mutas are starting to get out of hand, especially on the larger maps. I think we either need to tweak the regen or provide better options. I don't know what those options are, but on a whim could giving vikings a tiny splash help a bit? The oracle speed buff should be reverted as well. It never made any sense, and Protoss really doesn't need to have 6 viable proxy strategies. Yes man! Ripwave missiles from the campaign! And of course make it a fairly-expensive upgrade that's researched at the fusion core, or perhaps even an add-on that attaches to the fusion core, since Terran's tech-tree is way too short atm imo. Ripwave missiles would effect PvT too much, but the general idea is good. A fusion core required upgrade that increases the area of effect of the Thor's Javelin missiles would accomplish a similar effect in TvZ, allowing terran to have a later game response to mass muta that's actually achievable out of a bio mid-game, without making terran overly strong against colossus play. A battlecruiser buff is not uncalled for either. How would ripwave missiles effect TvP too much? Most of the things that vikings shoot in TvP are large enough that splash shouldn't be an issue at all. I played the campaign a lot and always got that upgrade, and the splash was just large enough to be useful vs mutas, but not large enough to be significant vs protoss (unless they're making mass mass void rays or something). Vs colossi, carriers, or tempests, the ripwave missile splash radius is simply not large enough to have any noticeable effect. If worst comes to worst, they could always take the spore-crawler route, and make ripwave missiles only do splash vs biological air. Edit: LOVE your idea about an upgrade for increasing thor splash radius. ATM I believe thor splash is the smallest splash radius in the game, which is weird considering how big and expensive thors are and how slow they shoot. You should consider also phoenix-colossi style and full-air vs mech
As I've said, Ripwave Missile splash radius is simply not large enough to have any real effect against large air units like carriers and tempests, and whenever I see full air vs mech from protoss, it's almost always carrier/tempest-based, rather than mass void-ray based.
As for phoenix-colossus, okay, I'll give you that, ripwave missiles would eat pheonixes for breakfast. However, that's why I suggested that the ripwave missiles upgrade be really high up on the tech-tree, higher than anything Terran's tech-tree currently has. If it were high enough up on the tech-tree so that Protoss would have transitioned out of pheonix-colossus by the time Terran has it, I don't think it would be an issue.
That's why I suggested that it be researched at an add-on to the fusion core. They could easily adjust the build-time to this add-on to whatever is appropriate, and perhaps in future expansions, new add-ons could be added with different upgrades, to make it more difficult for Terran to simply hit protoss with everything in their tech tree.
|
On July 03 2014 19:33 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 19:09 mostevil wrote:On July 03 2014 12:24 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 03 2014 09:22 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vikings + Thors are Goliaths. They perform the same function. Stop asking for a unit called a goliath when there are two units which do what a Goliath does. If you like a game that features a Goliath go watch Broodwar. You're not going to see BW style mech in SC2 anyway simply due to how resource and income works and how army movement works. To be fair, before the upgrade merger this wasn't true. Goliaths benefited from ground upgrades while Vikings did not making BW mech anti air vastly superior. Now it's more even i guess. EDIT: the Thor is shit anti air except vs. Mutas Goliaths were fairly shit AA too.. hence BW mech building turrets all over the map, which you can't really do in SC2 as it takes all your crappy tanks to defend any particular angle... Yes, this is correct. Goliath was only cost effecient against every air unit in the game, really crappy AA unit to say the least
Goliath AA was fairly shitty against mutalisks. Each attack only did 10 damage and the cooldown was significantly slower than missile turrets.
However, Goliath AA was certainly NOT shitty vs armored air units, such as carriers, battlecruisers, and guardians.
On July 03 2014 19:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 19:09 mostevil wrote:On July 03 2014 12:24 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 03 2014 09:22 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vikings + Thors are Goliaths. They perform the same function. Stop asking for a unit called a goliath when there are two units which do what a Goliath does. If you like a game that features a Goliath go watch Broodwar. You're not going to see BW style mech in SC2 anyway simply due to how resource and income works and how army movement works. To be fair, before the upgrade merger this wasn't true. Goliaths benefited from ground upgrades while Vikings did not making BW mech anti air vastly superior. Now it's more even i guess. EDIT: the Thor is shit anti air except vs. Mutas Goliaths were fairly shit AA too.. hence BW mech building turrets all over the map, which you can't really do in SC2 as it takes all your crappy tanks to defend any particular angle... I agree, i'm not saying they were 100 times better or anything. Another aspect to consider is that Vikings need separate production facilities. But the fact that they fly makes up for this.
I'm not sure I fully agree with this. One of the biggest weaknesses that mech has is sudden tech-switches, particularly from zerg. The fact that vikings are built from a different production facility as huge, and I'm not sure that the fact that they fly really does make up for that, especially considering that the speed and acceleration of vikings compared to other air units is really quite disappointing. Also, vikings have a long enough range to be a really effective ground-to-air unit (like the goliath was). Finally, being in the air means that vikings have to deal with the air-superiority fighters of other races. If they were on the ground, they could completely ignore corruptors, for example.
|
Goliath AA was fairly shitty against mutalisks. Each attack only did 10 damage and the cooldown was significantly slower than missile turrets.
However, Goliath AA was certainly NOT shitty vs armored air units, such as carriers, battlecruisers, and guardians.
Shitty? 10 damage is decent, 8range and gets +2 for each upgrade vs mutas.
Goliath was/is a beast in the AA department. Obviously there are other factors as to why terrans make turrets.
|
On July 03 2014 21:33 Dingodile wrote:
Why on earth buff units that are already the most used units? What about other terran units?
I think Davie just wanted to make a statement following Dwf's epic post. Nothing has been set in stone.
|
|
|
On July 03 2014 22:54 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +Goliath AA was fairly shitty against mutalisks. Each attack only did 10 damage and the cooldown was significantly slower than missile turrets.
However, Goliath AA was certainly NOT shitty vs armored air units, such as carriers, battlecruisers, and guardians.
Shitty? 10 damage is decent, 8range and gets +2 for each upgrade vs mutas. Goliath was/is a beast in the AA department. Obviously there are other factors as to why terrans make turrets.
Technically each attack did 5 damage to mutas, but there are two attacks. Weapon upgrades were +1/+2vs armored, so vs mutas the weapon upgrades would get cancelled out by armor upgrades.
10 damage, not even as much damage as two marines, was really nothing special, especially considering the goliath's longer cooldown. Maybe "shitty" was too strong of a word, though.
|
On July 03 2014 23:46 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 22:54 Foxxan wrote:Goliath AA was fairly shitty against mutalisks. Each attack only did 10 damage and the cooldown was significantly slower than missile turrets.
However, Goliath AA was certainly NOT shitty vs armored air units, such as carriers, battlecruisers, and guardians.
Shitty? 10 damage is decent, 8range and gets +2 for each upgrade vs mutas. Goliath was/is a beast in the AA department. Obviously there are other factors as to why terrans make turrets. Technically each attack did 5 damage to mutas, but there are two attacks. Weapon upgrades were +1/+2vs armored, so vs mutas the weapon upgrades would get cancelled out by armor upgrades. 10 damage, not even as much damage as two marines, was really nothing special, especially considering the goliath's longer cooldown. Maybe "shitty" was too strong of a word, though.
Health can't be overlooked, and range is pretty good. If you're meching and going vehicle weapons, marines are worse than goliaths. Range is really the biggest factor, though. Sure, marines do a bunch of damage, but each group of 12 goliaths is much more effective than a group of 12 or even 24 marines at zoning units out and they buy more time, because they take longer to die.
|
Anybody having any interesting idea about a lategame buff for Terran that helps with both Protoss, can be transitioned into from bio vs Zerg but doesn't add even more power to the mass raven mech vs Zerg and hopefully doesn't break TvT?
|
Charon Boosters, bros. Goliath imba
|
On July 04 2014 00:22 Big J wrote:
Anybody having any interesting idea about a lategame buff for Terran that helps with both Protoss, can be transitioned into from bio vs Zerg but doesn't add even more power to the mass raven mech vs Zerg and hopefully doesn't break TvT?
A medivac upgrade that is unlockable with a fusion core that allows for an increased healing rate sounds pretty nice.
|
Also, stimmable hellbats would be really cool too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
