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On July 03 2014 09:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 09:26 codonbyte wrote:On July 02 2014 03:00 r691175002 wrote:On July 02 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:Mutas are still nearly immortal. If you can't kill them in 1 hit it doesn't matter how much anti-air they have.
And ZvZ needs a patch. And I liked PvP more when oracles were slower. I agree with this man. Mutas are starting to get out of hand, especially on the larger maps. I think we either need to tweak the regen or provide better options. I don't know what those options are, but on a whim could giving vikings a tiny splash help a bit? The oracle speed buff should be reverted as well. It never made any sense, and Protoss really doesn't need to have 6 viable proxy strategies. Yes man! Ripwave missiles from the campaign! And of course make it a fairly-expensive upgrade that's researched at the fusion core, or perhaps even an add-on that attaches to the fusion core, since Terran's tech-tree is way too short atm imo. Ripwave missiles would effect PvT too much, but the general idea is good. A fusion core required upgrade that increases the area of effect of the Thor's Javelin missiles would accomplish a similar effect in TvZ, allowing terran to have a later game response to mass muta that's actually achievable out of a bio mid-game, without making terran overly strong against colossus play. A battlecruiser buff is not uncalled for either.
How would ripwave missiles effect TvP too much? Most of the things that vikings shoot in TvP are large enough that splash shouldn't be an issue at all. I played the campaign a lot and always got that upgrade, and the splash was just large enough to be useful vs mutas, but not large enough to be significant vs protoss (unless they're making mass mass void rays or something). Vs colossi, carriers, or tempests, the ripwave missile splash radius is simply not large enough to have any noticeable effect.
If worst comes to worst, they could always take the spore-crawler route, and make ripwave missiles only do splash vs biological air.
Edit: LOVE your idea about an upgrade for increasing thor splash radius. ATM I believe thor splash is the smallest splash radius in the game, which is weird considering how big and expensive thors are and how slow they shoot.
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4713 Posts
On July 03 2014 09:57 Cele wrote:
lol Blizzard never learns. They'll patch this game over and over until they may or may not eventually come up with a decent balance? A game needs time to be figured out. It took many years before Bisu single-handedly revolutionized the PvZ Match-up and made Protoss thus a strong race to play.
Difference being, BW was so hard mechanically that, often times, many perceived imbalances could be overcome trough shear mechanical execution. In addition, due to how hard it was mechanically, certain strategies went unexplored for ages due to how difficult it was to execute them.
SC2 and BW are like night and day, what happened in BW is impossible to happen in SC2 again.
Normally I'd be all for Blizzard leaving SC2 the fuck alone so it could balance itself out, but in this case SC2 is designed in a way where balance issues can't self correct trough proper application of skill or creative use of maps, it requires outside intervention.
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On July 03 2014 10:02 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 09:57 Cele wrote:
lol Blizzard never learns. They'll patch this game over and over until they may or may not eventually come up with a decent balance? A game needs time to be figured out. It took many years before Bisu single-handedly revolutionized the PvZ Match-up and made Protoss thus a strong race to play. Difference being, BW was so hard mechanically that, often times, many perceived imbalances could be overcome trough shear mechanical execution. In addition, due to how hard it was mechanically, certain strategies went unexplored for ages due to how difficult it was to execute them. SC2 and BW are like night and day, what happened in BW is impossible to happen in SC2 again. Normally I'd be all for Blizzard leaving SC2 the fuck alone so it could balance itself out, but in this case SC2 is designed in a way where balance issues can't self correct trough proper application of skill or creative use of maps, it requires outside intervention.
Excellent point. I know many people have complained about Blinding Cloud being overpowered (not saying it is), yet Disruption Web, which is almost identical, was a very rare site indeed.
And Lockdown was almost completely unheard of (I think Flash used it once??), even though it completely immobilizes any mechanical unit for sixty seconds. And ghosts were cheap back then! Damn! Can you imagine how disgustingly broken that ability would be today? Even with the same energy cost, on the more expensive ghosts of today, it would completely break TvT and TvP. If blizzard wanted to have that ability, they'd have to reduce the effect duration down to 10 seconds or something, and even then it would probably still be overpowered.
And let's not forget Parasite and Optic Flair. Not sure how often Parasite was used, but I don't recall hearing about it much. Imagine if it existed today. Zerg would basically have complete maphacks on entire enemy army.
And optic Flair was almost never seen (think Flash used it once or twice on carriers and reaver drops or something). Yet if it existed today on medics with similar cost, you could literally blind an entire mid-sized army of medium units.
God I miss those old never-used abilities that would be way way overpowered in SC2!
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David .. dude .. Just revert the WM back to what they were before and the game will balance .. stop missing around it .. it was a huge mistake that unbalanced the game for months and months now .. just undo it .. They just keep dancing around it!!
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On July 03 2014 10:33 JorSharky wrote:
David .. dude .. Just revert the WM back to what they were before and the game will balance .. stop missing around it .. it was a huge mistake that unbalanced the game for months and months now .. just undo it .. They just keep dancing around it!!
Couldn't say it better. And when you're at it, revert oracle speed buff. This would be the first time you admit having made a mistake but this would feel sooooo good and honestly is long overdue.
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On July 02 2014 02:09 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
"Let's buff the two most annoying Terran units, and do nothing to promote other styles of play."
Ok.
nothing more to say
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Germany10114 Posts
On July 03 2014 10:11 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 10:02 Destructicon wrote:On July 03 2014 09:57 Cele wrote:
lol Blizzard never learns. They'll patch this game over and over until they may or may not eventually come up with a decent balance? A game needs time to be figured out. It took many years before Bisu single-handedly revolutionized the PvZ Match-up and made Protoss thus a strong race to play. Difference being, BW was so hard mechanically that, often times, many perceived imbalances could be overcome trough shear mechanical execution. In addition, due to how hard it was mechanically, certain strategies went unexplored for ages due to how difficult it was to execute them. SC2 and BW are like night and day, what happened in BW is impossible to happen in SC2 again. Normally I'd be all for Blizzard leaving SC2 the fuck alone so it could balance itself out, but in this case SC2 is designed in a way where balance issues can't self correct trough proper application of skill or creative use of maps, it requires outside intervention. Excellent point. I know many people have complained about Blinding Cloud being overpowered (not saying it is), yet Disruption Web, which is almost identical, was a very rare site indeed. And Lockdown was almost completely unheard of (I think Flash used it once??), even though it completely immobilizes any mechanical unit for sixty seconds. And ghosts were cheap back then! Damn! Can you imagine how disgustingly broken that ability would be today? Even with the same energy cost, on the more expensive ghosts of today, it would completely break TvT and TvP. If blizzard wanted to have that ability, they'd have to reduce the effect duration down to 10 seconds or something, and even then it would probably still be overpowered. And let's not forget Parasite and Optic Flair. Not sure how often Parasite was used, but I don't recall hearing about it much. Imagine if it existed today. Zerg would basically have complete maphacks on entire enemy army. And optic Flair was almost never seen (think Flash used it once or twice on carriers and reaver drops or something). Yet if it existed today on medics with similar cost, you could literally blind an entire mid-sized army of medium units. God I miss those old never-used abilities that would be way way overpowered in SC2!
They would only be overpowered because all the abilities that transitioned over to Sc2 got weakened since they are easier to use.
But I disagree on the BW and Sc2 part being so different. Mechanics can still overcome alot, but the focus lies way more on army control, rather then BW were you could do alot if your base management was perfect. Also the reward of better mechanics is less strong. Sc2 is way faster paced then BW and there lies the difficult that makes controlling your army way harder to a point where people don't even bother to improve that.
We would have went through different eras of one race dominating, if Blizzard didn't change a thing and as a bonus we would even have more units to chose from, because they wouldn't have been nerfed to death so Blizzard's vision is fulfilled on how one matchup should be played.
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On July 03 2014 10:11 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 10:02 Destructicon wrote:On July 03 2014 09:57 Cele wrote:
lol Blizzard never learns. They'll patch this game over and over until they may or may not eventually come up with a decent balance? A game needs time to be figured out. It took many years before Bisu single-handedly revolutionized the PvZ Match-up and made Protoss thus a strong race to play. Difference being, BW was so hard mechanically that, often times, many perceived imbalances could be overcome trough shear mechanical execution. In addition, due to how hard it was mechanically, certain strategies went unexplored for ages due to how difficult it was to execute them. SC2 and BW are like night and day, what happened in BW is impossible to happen in SC2 again. Normally I'd be all for Blizzard leaving SC2 the fuck alone so it could balance itself out, but in this case SC2 is designed in a way where balance issues can't self correct trough proper application of skill or creative use of maps, it requires outside intervention. Excellent point. I know many people have complained about Blinding Cloud being overpowered (not saying it is), yet Disruption Web, which is almost identical, was a very rare site indeed. And Lockdown was almost completely unheard of (I think Flash used it once??), even though it completely immobilizes any mechanical unit for sixty seconds. And ghosts were cheap back then! Damn! Can you imagine how disgustingly broken that ability would be today? Even with the same energy cost, on the more expensive ghosts of today, it would completely break TvT and TvP. If blizzard wanted to have that ability, they'd have to reduce the effect duration down to 10 seconds or something, and even then it would probably still be overpowered. And let's not forget Parasite and Optic Flair. Not sure how often Parasite was used, but I don't recall hearing about it much. Imagine if it existed today. Zerg would basically have complete maphacks on entire enemy army. And optic Flair was almost never seen (think Flash used it once or twice on carriers and reaver drops or something). Yet if it existed today on medics with similar cost, you could literally blind an entire mid-sized army of medium units. God I miss those old never-used abilities that would be way way overpowered in SC2!
I think you're probably thinking of SlayerS_BoxeR for all that underused spell usage. He was the one who did all those cool Terran micro tricks back in the day, and you can probably find in some amazing montage/compilation vids on Youtube. As much as I love Flash, he's mostly known for solid macro and perfect decision-making rather than the cool micro tricks that BoxeR did.
Mass Queens using Spawn Broodling against late-game mech in ZvT is one particular strategy that had gained a lot of traction recently (as in 2011). Without smartcast, the spell is extremely mechanically strenuous and was thus very rarely seen like all those other underused spells. Then, Zergs such as the Woongjin Zergs ZerO and Soulkey managed to overcome these mechanical difficulties and work the spell into their late-game tactics against the late-game mech that was becoming increasingly popular around the time, especially by players like Fantasy.
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On July 03 2014 09:22 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vikings + Thors are Goliaths. They perform the same function. Stop asking for a unit called a goliath when there are two units which do what a Goliath does. If you like a game that features a Goliath go watch Broodwar. You're not going to see BW style mech in SC2 anyway simply due to how resource and income works and how army movement works.
To be fair, before the upgrade merger this wasn't true. Goliaths benefited from ground upgrades while Vikings did not making BW mech anti air vastly superior. Now it's more even i guess.
EDIT: the Thor is shit anti air except vs. Mutas
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In TvZ pretty much all units from terran are playable if you include bio, biomech, and full mech with possible transition to skyterran. Altough mech is strong only in a few maps. Really guys there are mech into bio and bio into mech pro games out there, its playable. You can add banshees to standard mech compositions, you can transition to bcs after mech.
I guess the problem is lack of diversity in TvP?
Sorry but the problem is on game design. Ground mech is hard countered by immortals, any buff that would make it standard vs protoss would make it imba vs zerg. BCs and banshees are quite strong vs zerg and terran so the same problem is valid, make it viable vs toss and its broken vs anything else.
Widow mines, medivacs and ravens are good, with widow mines already having that single time *sspull that is extra shield damage.
Thats why i think that the units that can be buffed are Thors, vikings and ghosts. All late game (when terran is weak), all not too strong, with a proper answer in all matchups. Thors can help TvZ, Ghosts mostly for TvP while viking can help for all matchups, I don't think a viking buff would hurt TvT too much, we are going to see banshees, and bc are going to be viable with ravens.
But yeah, a bc buff cannot hurt, just keep in mind it cannot be something huge, and that vipers and tempest are still going to destroy them.
Reverting the widow mine makes a lot of sense, but it includes shield damage removal (must include or its too strong) so its not really a big help for terran.
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You can never transitions to BCs, BCs are horrible.
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United States7483 Posts
On July 03 2014 09:57 codonbyte wrote:
Edit: LOVE your idea about an upgrade for increasing thor splash radius. ATM I believe thor splash is the smallest splash radius in the game, which is weird considering how big and expensive thors are and how slow they shoot.
It would solve the TvZ issue. I'd like to also see a battlecruiser buff. It wouldn't have a major impact on TvT or TvP, which is good as well.
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On July 03 2014 13:19 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 09:57 codonbyte wrote:
Edit: LOVE your idea about an upgrade for increasing thor splash radius. ATM I believe thor splash is the smallest splash radius in the game, which is weird considering how big and expensive thors are and how slow they shoot. It would solve the TvZ issue. I'd like to also see a battlecruiser buff. It wouldn't have a major impact on TvT or TvP, which is good as well.
BCs are already pretty buff, but they suffer like lings, marines, etc, from needing those upgrades. If you're doing 1-1-1, a BC already has it's shot power. They start with something like 3 or 4 armor at base, so they can eat up a lot of stuff that isn't specifically anti-armor (stalker, hydra, muta, phoenix, marine, etc). I'd like to see people using them more often for what they are, a decent DPS high armor bait unit to force expensive gas counters while a much cheaper terran ground army delivers the real punishment. It makes an excellent retard magnet for zerg hydras or corruptors. Where'd all your gas for banes/festor go? Aww, too bad you overmade for only a handful of BCs and you're getting wiped by bio now.
My main problem with DK calling Widow Mines core to TvP, specifically, is that it's basically like handing chargelots a suicide detpack upgrade for free. If they're supposed to work in synergy with tanks, oh look, a bunch of chargelots just made the tanks evaporate even faster. Terran being the only race who's splash affects its own units is already problematic enough in the siege tank, particularly since it's so good at killing your own bio. That's why we don't see siege tanks working in TvP often.
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Terran being the only race who's splash affects its own units is already problematic enough in the siege tank, particularly since it's so good at killing your own bio. That's why we don't see siege tanks working in TvP often.
Storms affect Protoss units too, though you'd be forgiven for thinking they do not.
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On July 03 2014 12:24 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 09:22 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vikings + Thors are Goliaths. They perform the same function. Stop asking for a unit called a goliath when there are two units which do what a Goliath does. If you like a game that features a Goliath go watch Broodwar. You're not going to see BW style mech in SC2 anyway simply due to how resource and income works and how army movement works. To be fair, before the upgrade merger this wasn't true. Goliaths benefited from ground upgrades while Vikings did not making BW mech anti air vastly superior. Now it's more even i guess. EDIT: the Thor is shit anti air except vs. Mutas
Hmm, something important you're missing is that the Goliath was optimized against armored units and was ground-based. Vikings counter capital ships in the same way Goliaths did, only they're so maneuverable, due to being air units, that they just chase them down and eliminate them. I'd like to see Vikings repurposed as general anti-air or anti-light with splash, and have the Thor beefed up a bit in its anti-armor air attack. Maybe its health, too. Those things need some help.
On July 03 2014 16:11 ROOTiaguz wrote:Show nested quote +Terran being the only race who's splash affects its own units is already problematic enough in the siege tank, particularly since it's so good at killing your own bio. That's why we don't see siege tanks working in TvP often. Storms affect Protoss units too, though you'd be forgiven for thinking they do not.
I think I've only seen them used very lategame, and against extremely Immortal heavy comps. It would be kind of neat to see them do additional damage against psionic units, so they'd chew through Archons a bit better, and be more worthy of being tossed out onto general army clumps to kill off Sentries. Making PvP more exciting is probably not a priority though.
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On July 03 2014 09:57 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 09:49 Whitewing wrote:On July 03 2014 09:26 codonbyte wrote:On July 02 2014 03:00 r691175002 wrote:On July 02 2014 02:57 stuchiu wrote:Mutas are still nearly immortal. If you can't kill them in 1 hit it doesn't matter how much anti-air they have.
And ZvZ needs a patch. And I liked PvP more when oracles were slower. I agree with this man. Mutas are starting to get out of hand, especially on the larger maps. I think we either need to tweak the regen or provide better options. I don't know what those options are, but on a whim could giving vikings a tiny splash help a bit? The oracle speed buff should be reverted as well. It never made any sense, and Protoss really doesn't need to have 6 viable proxy strategies. Yes man! Ripwave missiles from the campaign! And of course make it a fairly-expensive upgrade that's researched at the fusion core, or perhaps even an add-on that attaches to the fusion core, since Terran's tech-tree is way too short atm imo. Ripwave missiles would effect PvT too much, but the general idea is good. A fusion core required upgrade that increases the area of effect of the Thor's Javelin missiles would accomplish a similar effect in TvZ, allowing terran to have a later game response to mass muta that's actually achievable out of a bio mid-game, without making terran overly strong against colossus play. A battlecruiser buff is not uncalled for either. How would ripwave missiles effect TvP too much? Most of the things that vikings shoot in TvP are large enough that splash shouldn't be an issue at all. I played the campaign a lot and always got that upgrade, and the splash was just large enough to be useful vs mutas, but not large enough to be significant vs protoss (unless they're making mass mass void rays or something). Vs colossi, carriers, or tempests, the ripwave missile splash radius is simply not large enough to have any noticeable effect. If worst comes to worst, they could always take the spore-crawler route, and make ripwave missiles only do splash vs biological air. Edit: LOVE your idea about an upgrade for increasing thor splash radius. ATM I believe thor splash is the smallest splash radius in the game, which is weird considering how big and expensive thors are and how slow they shoot.
You should consider also phoenix-colossi style and full-air vs mech
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I think I've only seen them used very lategame, and against extremely Immortal heavy comps. It would be kind of neat to see them do additional damage against psionic units, so they'd chew through Archons a bit better, and be more worthy of being tossed out onto general army clumps to kill off Sentries. Making PvP more exciting is probably not a priority though
I was talking about how when a templar uses storm it affects friendly Protoss units, it was a snide comment about protoss having shitloads of hp and how running over their own storms doesn't hurt as much as when widow mines kill all of your own shit. I wasn't talking about PvP at all, dunno where you got that idea from.
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On July 03 2014 12:24 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 09:22 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vikings + Thors are Goliaths. They perform the same function. Stop asking for a unit called a goliath when there are two units which do what a Goliath does. If you like a game that features a Goliath go watch Broodwar. You're not going to see BW style mech in SC2 anyway simply due to how resource and income works and how army movement works. To be fair, before the upgrade merger this wasn't true. Goliaths benefited from ground upgrades while Vikings did not making BW mech anti air vastly superior. Now it's more even i guess. EDIT: the Thor is shit anti air except vs. Mutas
Goliaths were fairly shit AA too.. hence BW mech building turrets all over the map, which you can't really do in SC2 as it takes all your crappy tanks to defend any particular angle...
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On July 03 2014 13:19 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 09:57 codonbyte wrote:
Edit: LOVE your idea about an upgrade for increasing thor splash radius. ATM I believe thor splash is the smallest splash radius in the game, which is weird considering how big and expensive thors are and how slow they shoot. It would solve the TvZ issue. I'd like to also see a battlecruiser buff. It wouldn't have a major impact on TvT or TvP, which is good as well.
How are people still complaining about TvZ?
Since the hellbat buff, koreans are winning WAY more in TvZ. Alot of top Z's in korea are losing alot vs T the last weeks.
Buffing terran more early game is not the way to fix the problem...
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On July 03 2014 19:15 Rainmansc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 13:19 Whitewing wrote:On July 03 2014 09:57 codonbyte wrote:
Edit: LOVE your idea about an upgrade for increasing thor splash radius. ATM I believe thor splash is the smallest splash radius in the game, which is weird considering how big and expensive thors are and how slow they shoot. It would solve the TvZ issue. I'd like to also see a battlecruiser buff. It wouldn't have a major impact on TvT or TvP, which is good as well. How are people still complaining about TvZ? Since the hellbat buff, koreans are winning WAY more in TvZ. Alot of top Z's in korea are losing alot vs T the last weeks. Buffing terran more early game is not the way to fix the problem...
Who is talking about early game buffs?
Koreans winning alot more TvZ? Source/data please.
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EPT
