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Salient
United States876 Posts
On July 01 2014 20:57 Faust852 wrote: Please give me an example where hellbat patch helped in TvP lategame. The Hellbat buff was for TvZ, which is really the heart of the current balance whine. Terrans are fishing for a mine buff versus Zerg without waiting for the data regarding whether the hellbat buff changed the matchup. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:02 Salient wrote: The Hellbat buff was for TvZ, which is really the heart of the current balance whine. Terrans are fishing for a mine buff versus Zerg without waiting for the data regarding whether the hellbat buff changed the matchup. What does this have to do with tvp? | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On July 01 2014 20:55 Salient wrote: You need data to support your balance whine. You have no data to support anything post-patch. It is just unadulterated QQ. On July 01 2014 21:02 Salient wrote: The Hellbat buff was for TvZ, which is really the heart of the current balance whine. Terrans are fishing for a mine buff versus Zerg without waiting for the data regarding whether the hellbat buff changed the matchup. Want data? Aligulac of last 2 weeks. TvZ 44% TvP 47% TvT = 1/4 PvP = 1/5 ZvZ Nearly no terrans playing, and those that manage to play STILL have a losing record. Now you're up again. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:02 Salient wrote: The Hellbat buff was for TvZ, which is really the heart of the current balance whine. Terrans are fishing for a mine buff versus Zerg without waiting for the data regarding whether the hellbat buff changed the matchup. Why are you talking about Teaja 17-0 and over MC and HerO if you think the core of the article is about TvZ ? Please restrain yourself about bitching if you don't even understand that Protoss and Zerg are different races. Anyway, if you want to know, TvZ is still in favor of Z one month after the HB patch. | ||
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fruity.
England1711 Posts
On July 01 2014 20:41 Wombat_NI wrote: ...In general I believe it's tough to predict the consequences of particular changes... I completely agree with you there. It must be exceptionally hard to balance a game with so many variables. It can't be easy to differentiate between a new tactic, unit, or buff being over or underpowered, as opposed to the other classes not as yet coming up with a way to negate it, for example. Or predicting how a change to the game would be used (or abused) Compared to its intend use. It's a fine line to tread, no question. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On July 01 2014 20:59 Salient wrote: Code S champions don't stop being Koreans or Code S level players when they leave Korea to play in another region. Jaedong, MC, and Taeja, etc. Did not become foreigners by selecting another region. Maru will not be less good when EG buys him someday. Yes. They do. They fall off. MC can't beat SoO or Classic or Zest. Nor can Jaedong. Taeja is multiple classes above MC and a lot stronger than MC. Taeja beating up foreigners and Code B players in TvP lategame he was usually already ahead in IS NOT a counterargument. Now. Where's your data? | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24944 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:08 Wombat_NI wrote: Taeja is a monster at lategame TvP, but he is an outlier. Even Maru struggles with controlling MMMVG vs top tier Protoss players, his vP was at its strongest when he went pure MMM and played nonstop aggression from the midgame onwards. Most games Taeja ends up in lategame TvP he is already ahead. It says enough only Taeja is willing to go lategame, every other Terran goes all in with SCVs knowing they are going for losing odds. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9366 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:08 Wombat_NI wrote: Taeja is a monster at lategame TvP, but he is an outlier. Even Maru struggles with controlling MMMVG vs top tier Protoss players, his vP was at its strongest when he went pure MMM and played nonstop aggression from the midgame onwards. I still don't think Taeja would stand much of a chance against Zest/Hero late game TvP. He is however good at beating secondgrade koreans and top foreigners. | ||
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:10 Hider wrote: I still don't think Taeja would stand much of a chance against Zest/Hero late game TvP. He is however good at beating secondgrade koreans and top foreigners. Agreed. Check out his games vs. Dear for reference. | ||
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Radison
Poland44 Posts
If you agree with me it's ok, if you don't it's also ok. I won't post more comments here though, since they are getting far outnumbered and bullied by terrans (which is actually to be expected in responses to such an article). | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On July 01 2014 20:36 Salient wrote: Terran players like the dwarf and Avilo have been crying about balance for years, even when Terran was winning everything during Wings of Liberty. This biased article uses data from before the recent slew of Terran buffs. It is dishonest and embarrassing. Where do you get the nerve to spout such crap at one of the most helpful community members on this site? The only one overly biased here is you, because you can't look past your emotions and act overly defensive on what you perceive as an attack on "your" race. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:11 Radison wrote: Well, I am surely not a troll. I also don't get why my low post count has anything to do with this discussion. Anyways, what I am saying is if you agree that one race is stronger after major balance changes (like HoTS was) than you have to agree that other two races have to be stronger later to compensate for this. Otherwise, if you sum up all the tournament wins since the beginning of, let's say, HoTS, you will find that game is imbalanced in favor of this stronger at the beginning race. Now, look from pro player perspective - if game is shifted in favor of terran at the beginning and then perfectly balance terran players will win equal amount of tournaments later on + bonus, undeserved wins in the beginning. This means they earn more money than equally hard working zerg or toss pro players. You think this is fair? What is fair is a balanced game for every race, not a game where each race has its spotlight for a brief moment. And FYI, Terrans is the least winning race in term of money since 2011. So it would be about time, by your stupid standard, that terran should be OP for at least one whole year. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:11 Radison wrote: Well, I am surely not a troll. I also don't get why my low post count has anything to do with this discussion. Anyways, what I am saying is if you agree that one race is stronger after major balance changes (like HoTS was) than you have to agree that other two races have to be stronger later to compensate for this. Otherwise, if you sum up all the tournament wins since the beginning of, let's say, HoTS, you will find that game is imbalanced in favor of this stronger at the beginning race. Now, look from pro player perspective - if game is shifted in favor of terran at the beginning and then perfectly balance terran players will win equal amount of tournaments later on + bonus, undeserved wins in the beginning. This means they earn more money than equally hard working zerg or toss pro players. You think this is fair? You think it is fair to award players for flavor of the month instead of for raw skill? Terran hardly was OP at the beginning of HOTS, after 3/4 months, things were fine. Now, 8 months later, Terran is still in shambles. I don't get how some people are still so butthurt over mid 2011 that Terran has to suffer for 3 years to make up for it. It makes NO FUCKING SENSE to punish a race now for being slightly too strong earlier. We need to aim for a balanced and fair game in which the better player wins, not in which the race of the month gets to win. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24944 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:11 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: Agreed. Check out his games vs. Dear for reference. The Taeja of now is not the Taeja that played Dear, a negative consequence of the removal of season finals is not getting to see the likes of Taeja vs Korea's finest. I dispute that HerO is a second grade Korean as well, he's no Zest at present but neither is anyone else. | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:11 Radison wrote: Well, I am surely not a troll. I also don't get why my low post count has anything to do with this discussion. Anyways, what I am saying is if you agree that one race is stronger after major balance changes (like HoTS was) than you have to agree that other two races have to be stronger later to compensate for this. Otherwise, if you sum up all the tournament wins since the beginning of, let's say, HoTS, you will find that game is imbalanced in favor of this stronger at the beginning race. Now, look from pro player perspective - if game is shifted in favor of terran at the beginning and then perfectly balance terran players will win equal amount of tournaments later on + bonus, undeserved wins in the beginning. This means they earn more money than equally hard working zerg or toss pro players. You think this is fair? This is absolutely not the goal of ballancing, to ballance the earnings/wins of tournaments by time. It is a very wrong approach of ballancing. Ballancing should give the 3 races almost equal opportunities to play the game out, which is currently not the case. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:12 Sapphire.lux wrote: Where do you get the nerve to spout such crap at one of the most helpful community members on this site? The only one overly biased here is you, because you can't look past your emotions and act overly defensive on what you perceive as an attack on "your" race. I'd almost see that as a bannable offense, comparing one of the best community members and probably the most dedicated terran player on the entire website to shitvilo... | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:14 Wombat_NI wrote: The Taeja of now is not the Taeja that played Dear, a negative consequence of the removal of season finals is not getting to see the likes of Taeja vs Korea's finest. I dispute that HerO is a second grade Korean as well, he's no Zest at present but neither is anyone else. LiquidHero is slumping atm, he says it himself and his results tell so. HerO is not on Taeja's level at this point in time and certainly not close to Zest or CJHero, whatever way you look at it. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On July 01 2014 21:06 SC2Toastie wrote: Yes. They do. They fall off. MC can't beat SoO or Classic or Zest. Nor can Jaedong. Taeja is multiple classes above MC and a lot stronger than MC. Taeja beating up foreigners and Code B players in TvP lategame he was usually already ahead in IS NOT a counterargument. Now. Where's your data? MC 2-0 Classic at IEM (set 1). Classic 2-1 MC set 2. Jaedong was #2 at Blizzcon. Bomber won a WCS season finals over WCS Korea players. #data | ||
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