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On July 01 2014 21:33 Wombat_NI wrote:
With the exception of MC, MMA, Polt and jjakji many of these guys are still based in Korea for the most time as well, HerO is in the IM house iirc, so they're still getting a close to optimal training environment. Impressive to me is that Taeja practices from home and still maintains his level.
It's a damn shame that Korea doesn't have more tournaments for people to earn their keep, given that the country provides such a massive proportion of the top tier SC2 players
It's also a shame how the WCS Global tournament will consist of mostly the guys who travel and get invites to foreign tournaments for free WCS points while the top in korea will probably secure about 3-4 spots.
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On July 01 2014 21:32 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Salient: complains about an article for beeing misleading because it doesnt use up to date data. Posts games which were over a year ago to prove his points.
Must be some applicable meme here :D
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Homestory Cup and MLG were premier events won by Terran last month.
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On July 01 2014 21:43 Salient wrote:
Homestory Cup and MLG were premier events won by Terran last month.
won by TaeJa*
Seriously, when's the last time a Terran OTHER than TaeJa won a premier event? September?
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On July 01 2014 21:43 Salient wrote:
Homestory Cup and MLG were premier events won by Terran last month.
Tell me more about Trap being a terran plz. (Trap who 6-0 one of the best TvP player in the world btw).
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On July 01 2014 21:43 Salient wrote:
Homestory Cup and MLG were premier events won by Terran last month.
If you read the article carefully then you'd recognize that those were taken into consideration when OP said that Terran won 4 major Tournaments by one person -> TaeJa
In contrast to many many other wins by the other two races.
From what I think tournament wins are not really the thing which should be taken into consideration. The facts of gameplay stated by OP are already speaking by themselves.
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On July 01 2014 21:45 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 21:43 Salient wrote:
Homestory Cup and MLG were premier events won by Terran last month. Tell me more about Trap being a terran plz. (Trap who 6-0 one of the best TvP player in the world btw).
Pardon me. I meant Homestory Cup and Dreamhack.
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Northern Ireland24934 Posts
As much as Avilo gets flak, Protoss players who deny that there might be a problematic state of affairs mystify me 
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On July 01 2014 22:04 Wombat_NI wrote:Protoss players who deny that there might be a problematic state of affairs mystify me
Does it? I'm not surprised at all, if you are winning a lot and have clear-cut answers to Terran composition, would you complain?
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Best editorial ever - The dwarf 1 : 0 Blizzard
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Also as it stands for now in the best 32 players in Korea, only 4 are terran atm.
I really hope qualifier will bring more terrans to the table of GSL but I really have my doubt. Can you guys imagine a 4 terran only GSL code A +code S. If that happens it could be the most historical under representation ever in a sc2 premier tournament.
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I have no idea about balance, and not sure if the current under representation is statistically significant or not, but it'd be nice to have a bit fewer zvz and PvP in tournaments. :/ zvt such a fun matchup to watch IMO, but always funnier to watch your own race I guess.
So gogo Korean terrans!! Live up to your legacy!! 
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Hello !
Thank's to OP for this article.
Some kind of Blizzard response here (in a thread about this article) :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/460550-welcome-to-zparcraft-ii
Let's see if you still do nothing.
Posted by Psione
(...) We've been reading the feedback on Terran balance and on our thoughts regarding balance test maps. We'll be discussing these topics further on our end and hope to have additional details soon.
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I am only in platinum so I don't really know if this is the same in the higher leagues, but it sems lately all zerg or protoss have to do when playing against terran is sit back, defend any harass (which is quite easy as drops and stuff are basically unit donations now) and roll over the terran with there superior army
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On July 01 2014 23:01 magnaflow wrote:
I am only in platinum so I don't really know if this is the same in the higher leagues, but it sems lately all zerg or protoss have to do when playing against terran is sit back, defend any harass (which is quite easy as drops and stuff are basically unit donations now) and roll over the terran with there superior army
It's difficult to harass and macro at the same time, if I were you I would just try to get a big army as quick as possible and go attack with that instead of harassing off of a 1/1/1 expansion play that leaves you with little, to no infrastructure once the harass ends. Or just watch a replay and figure out when your minerals start to pile up, remember the game time and just make a mental note to add more production during the harass.
This article is focused more on top-level play, but I agree with you, it's very difficult to harass.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 01 2014 20:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
Just make Protoss harder to bloody play, seriously across the range of leagues terrible players can prosper with that race. I don't particularly care that my game has flaws, or that 'before GM your mechanics are bad'. I'm aware of my flaws, it's just not fun having to bust my ass to beat people who possess few if any of the skills you're expected to have at an RTS. Hell I ran a LAN lately and it was sad, active Masters Terrans losing to Protoss players we browbeated into signing up and who hadn't played in 6 months.
Now, at the highest level Protoss players have fantastic ability, I just wish they could show some of their skillset and differentiate themselves better.
I've said it since Beta, the MSC is garbage in it's current form because it is so brainless. You get it, there is no reason not to and it makes your timings and your defense better, blindly. The original form, tethered to the Nexus had potential, could pool energy for defense, could use it to bolster chrono and bolster your macro, or pool for recall and be offensive.
Why the hell did they not pursue that? It's maddening, the ostensible reason was 'we wanted it to feel like a unit'.
IMO Protoss production should also be much more reliant on good chronoboost usage. Let's good players benefit from distributing chrono well, be it for tech for timings or just bulk producing.
1) For everyone in this thread, his name is actually TheDwf or "The Downfall" lol. But that's okay, I always call him "The Dwarf" too .
2) Protoss IS hard to play against a good Terran. It drives me up the wall when people make these asinine statements that one race takes skill or another one doesn't because of some dumb reason. I AGREE that Protoss has a lot of power right now, but that power is mainly in options. It's not like playing Protoss just means that you don't have to have any mechanics to play properly. Making a statement like that is demeaning to 1/3 of the SC community, and it's not fair for the people who have worked really really hard to get into diamond or masters to call them #blinktoss and say they're actually garbage. That's just not fair.
3) MSC was designed to break PvP out of its 1-base vs 1-base stalemate by giving a defender's advantage while also simultaneously creating a way for Protoss to scout/move around on the map in the mid game against bio and Zerg. During all of WoL, Protoss was forced to turtle super hard and only got to move out at specific timings...the MSC makes non-committal pressure much easier and allows Protoss to do a lot of the things it couldn't do before. Is it a little too powerful? Maybe. But I don't think the idea of the MSC, even as a unit, is a bad idea at all.
PS Protosses who do not use their chronoboost well are terrible players, and it's reflected in their subsequent losses to decent players. Chronoboost is every bit as important as MULEs or injects.
I think the biggest thing to take away from this thread is that Terran gets nerfed in kind of kneejerk reaction ways, as seen historically throughout SC2 (and not just HotS), which creates an environment where Terran is weaker versus opponent's that have finally adjusted to the old threat. In the end, I go back to my assertion that Blizzard should really take a look at buffing lategame Terran (my suggestion is buffing snipe) in order to prevent a subsequent nerf when they feel that the Terran mid game becomes too strong. Buffing the late game changes only one part of the game while buffing the early and mid game changes the game entirely (see: queen range buff).
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1st: Great Article. That was a lot of work to put that together with all that examples.
2nd: I agree with this for the most part, but i disagree in some points.
I pic some examples to explain what i mean:
The Wm Nerf: The WM was OP, but not especially because of the dmg
It was the effiziency for the cost. 2 Supply is ok BUT 75/25 is way too cheap. reducing Splashradius is
fine, but maybe to raise the cost would have been the better desicion.
Toss: I think most ppl will agree that Toss would deserve a complete redesighn. The Warpin mechanic and the MSC
with
Recall and Timewarp are way to forgiving in therms of Armypositioning and Mobility.
Zerg: I agree that ZvT Lategame favors Z, because with the 5th or 6th Base the reinforcementability is stronger than
that of any other Race, especially T (Toss with 10+ Gates can also Reinforce too fast)
A-Klick Race --> yes it is, but what Unit do u want to Micro to be way more efficient? Lings? Roaches? Ultras?
The swarm relies on cheap replaceable Units.
Terra: I think one way to make it easier for the Terrans could be if u make their Macro a little bit easier to handle
(but don´t ask me how, i have no idea), so they can focus more on Micro, because no Unit in the entire Game
can be more costeffective than the Marine, if handled properly.
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On July 01 2014 23:09 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 23:01 magnaflow wrote:
I am only in platinum so I don't really know if this is the same in the higher leagues, but it sems lately all zerg or protoss have to do when playing against terran is sit back, defend any harass (which is quite easy as drops and stuff are basically unit donations now) and roll over the terran with there superior army It's difficult to harass and macro at the same time, if I were you I would just try to get a big army as quick as possible and go attack with that instead of harassing off of a 1/1/1 expansion play that leaves you with little, to no infrastructure once the harass ends. Or just watch a replay and figure out when your minerals start to pile up, remember the game time and just make a mental note to add more production during the harass. This article is focused more on top-level play, but I agree with you, it's very difficult to harass.
How is it difficult to do those things?
BW players have been doing those since forever with even bigger restrictions.
This doesn't compute at all.
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On July 01 2014 23:41 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 23:09 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 23:01 magnaflow wrote:
I am only in platinum so I don't really know if this is the same in the higher leagues, but it sems lately all zerg or protoss have to do when playing against terran is sit back, defend any harass (which is quite easy as drops and stuff are basically unit donations now) and roll over the terran with there superior army It's difficult to harass and macro at the same time, if I were you I would just try to get a big army as quick as possible and go attack with that instead of harassing off of a 1/1/1 expansion play that leaves you with little, to no infrastructure once the harass ends. Or just watch a replay and figure out when your minerals start to pile up, remember the game time and just make a mental note to add more production during the harass. This article is focused more on top-level play, but I agree with you, it's very difficult to harass. How is it difficult to do those things? BW players have been doing those since forever with even bigger restrictions. This doesn't compute at all.
lol
just because BW players did all those with bigger restrictions, doesn't mean it is not difficult in sc2.
and he is right, in plat level, you can play macro based style instead of doing harass and not macroing well enough.
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On July 01 2014 23:20 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 20:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
Just make Protoss harder to bloody play, seriously across the range of leagues terrible players can prosper with that race. I don't particularly care that my game has flaws, or that 'before GM your mechanics are bad'. I'm aware of my flaws, it's just not fun having to bust my ass to beat people who possess few if any of the skills you're expected to have at an RTS. Hell I ran a LAN lately and it was sad, active Masters Terrans losing to Protoss players we browbeated into signing up and who hadn't played in 6 months.
Now, at the highest level Protoss players have fantastic ability, I just wish they could show some of their skillset and differentiate themselves better.
I've said it since Beta, the MSC is garbage in it's current form because it is so brainless. You get it, there is no reason not to and it makes your timings and your defense better, blindly. The original form, tethered to the Nexus had potential, could pool energy for defense, could use it to bolster chrono and bolster your macro, or pool for recall and be offensive.
Why the hell did they not pursue that? It's maddening, the ostensible reason was 'we wanted it to feel like a unit'.
IMO Protoss production should also be much more reliant on good chronoboost usage. Let's good players benefit from distributing chrono well, be it for tech for timings or just bulk producing. 1) For everyone in this thread, his name is actually TheDwf or "The Downfall" lol. But that's okay, I always call him "The Dwarf" too . 2) Protoss IS hard to play against a good Terran. It drives me up the wall when people make these asinine statements that one race takes skill or another one doesn't because of some dumb reason. I AGREE that Protoss has a lot of power right now, but that power is mainly in options. It's not like playing Protoss just means that you don't have to have any mechanics to play properly. Making a statement like that is demeaning to 1/3 of the SC community, and it's not fair for the people who have worked really really hard to get into diamond or masters to call them #blinktoss and say they're actually garbage. That's just not fair. 3) MSC was designed to break PvP out of its 1-base vs 1-base stalemate by giving a defender's advantage while also simultaneously creating a way for Protoss to scout/move around on the map in the mid game against bio and Zerg. During all of WoL, Protoss was forced to turtle super hard and only got to move out at specific timings...the MSC makes non-committal pressure much easier and allows Protoss to do a lot of the things it couldn't do before. Is it a little too powerful? Maybe. But I don't think the idea of the MSC, even as a unit, is a bad idea at all. PS Protosses who do not use their chronoboost well are terrible players, and it's reflected in their subsequent losses to decent players. Chronoboost is every bit as important as MULEs or injects.
I think the biggest thing to take away from this thread is that Terran gets nerfed in kind of kneejerk reaction ways, as seen historically throughout SC2 (and not just HotS), which creates an environment where Terran is weaker versus opponent's that have finally adjusted to the old threat. In the end, I go back to my assertion that Blizzard should really take a look at buffing lategame Terran (my suggestion is buffing snipe) in order to prevent a subsequent nerf when they feel that the Terran mid game becomes too strong. Buffing the late game changes only one part of the game while buffing the early and mid game changes the game entirely (see: queen range buff).
I agree protoss is difficult to play vs terran actually the matchup is equally demanding on scouting positioning decision making ( maybe not micro though) at the highest level . What I experience as an unranked player at top diamond level (former master) is that nowadays I encounter mainly really good Zergs that have really good macro and mechanics that are difficult to beat and I have a 85% winrate in TvP because I use a super safe build because I know that even with delaying my macro I will win endgame vs protoss because protoss at diamond level have become mechanic/macrowise total crap. Everytime I look at worker prod graph I see a huge gap between my prod and the protoss prod. The gap between my protoss and zerg opponent macrowise is miles away. I remember though that at the begining of hots protoss had some solid macro mechanics. I think the dumbed down early/mid gameplay of protosses have hurt a lot the skill of the players. why learn to do fancy things when you just need to have a group on your MSC and f+click everytime you see a threat?
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EPT
