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On April 30 2014 13:43 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 13:38 KingofGods wrote:
Protosses were macroing even before the nexus cannon was introduced?
Terrans don't all in protosses anymore because of the threat of oracles. They weren't exactly allining every game before the nexus cannon. Nexus cannons allow the protoss to all in, fail, and still survive. That should not happen in SC2. Nexus cannon also allows map-makers to not have to design maps around protoss being able to survive 1-1-1, which is even stronger now with cheaper banshee cloak and the existence of mines. Nerf the all-ins directly through time warp and reverting the oracle buff, don't remove protoss' ability to defend all ins in PvT and PvP.
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta. One of the classic (read: historically good) struggles in starcraft is the player trying to be economically greedy (ie. getting a quick expo) vs. the other player trying to punish the greed.
But now we have the nexus cannon.
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In a fast paced game like sc2, at the middle stage of the game it takes you a blink of the eye to get 25/25 for 2/2 and even shorter than that when its time to upgrade 3/3. The only problem you worry about is not to forget the upgrade. And so Option 1 is not a significant buff at all.
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Both option seems good. Can i be a bit greedy and ask for ' msc required a forge' too?
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I like the transformation servos. (pushes something that isn't used at all)
Not so much the Upgrade Cost reduction. (pushes one of the already strongest tools)
The real problem though in TvZ are mass mutalisk numbers in the lategame. Imo, nerf mutalisk speed by 0.25 (to 3.75), nerf mutalisk regeneration by 0.33 (to 0.66). Nerf phoenix speed by 0.25.
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Ghost super expensive, harder than HT to use and still weaker than HT is what I'm feeling is the problem. Egen playing P, I sometimes make ridiculous comebacks with storm, and as terran I kinda always mess up when getting ghosts into battle... I'm really bad though
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Cheaper upgrades would allow faster transition for bio mine into bio mech which would be awesome
I believe it needs more testing though
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On April 30 2014 14:00 KingofGods wrote:
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta.
I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. 4gate was the dominant strategy well into 2012, and was completely viable on most maps up until HotS.
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On April 30 2014 14:13 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:00 KingofGods wrote:
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta. I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. 4gate was the dominant strategy well into 2012, and was completely viable on most maps up until HotS.
Yeah, in silver.
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On April 30 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:13 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:00 KingofGods wrote:
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta. I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. 4gate was the dominant strategy well into 2012, and was completely viable on most maps up until HotS. Yeah, in silver.
well I remember sos killing bomber with 4gates a year or so ago, but it was a super risky ninja allin on a 4 players map and bomber went cc first iirc.
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On April 30 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:13 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:00 KingofGods wrote:
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta. I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. 4gate was the dominant strategy well into 2012, and was completely viable on most maps up until HotS. Yeah, in silver.
Go look up a handful Korean PvP VODs from 2011-12. Not going to make a specific guess in terms of the percentages, but I would guess that almost all of them are going to be either 4gate, 3-stalker rush, or blink all-in.
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On April 30 2014 14:30 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On April 30 2014 14:13 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:00 KingofGods wrote:
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta. I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. 4gate was the dominant strategy well into 2012, and was completely viable on most maps up until HotS. Yeah, in silver. well I remember sos killing bomber with 4gates a year or so ago, but it was a super risky ninja allin on a 4 players map and bomber went cc first iirc.
Exactly. And the Nexus Canon wouldn't really have helped Bomber 
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United States7483 Posts
On April 30 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:13 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:00 KingofGods wrote:
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta. I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. 4gate was the dominant strategy well into 2012, and was completely viable on most maps up until HotS. Yeah, in silver.
Even in pro games 4 gate was super popular as a strategy. Many games wound up being variants of 4 gates as well, ranging from 4 gate warp prism to the korean 4 gate, or 4 gate blink, etc.
PvP never got past 1 base vs 1 base in all of WoL regularly. Towards the end as robo expands became popular on maps like cloud kingdom, you sometimes saw longer games when players went with builds that couldn't get a heavy advantage vs. the other. Then the standard was to go straight to +3 weapons off of double robo and have one giant attack, but that only happened when neither player could kill the other. Even at the end of WoL, it wasn't unusual to see 4 gates.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Poll: Biggest betrayal Rain has felt sinceSan beat Maru (12) 48% MC beat TY (10) 40% Stardust beat Jjakji (2) 8% MC best MMA (1) 4% 25 total votes Your vote: Biggest betrayal Rain has felt since (Vote): MC best MMA
(Vote): MC beat TY
(Vote): San beat Maru
(Vote): Stardust beat Jjakji
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Meh. They need to make the mothership core stay home more and make it so that protoss can't afford to stay on just a couple of units while they tech. The photon overcharge as a concept is one of the best recent changes since SC2 is all about attacking, so we need a terran and zerg counterpart to that. For zerg I’ve been suggesting summoning a couple of mutalisks that have limited range around the hatchery. For terran either some shield which increases armour around the CC, or a boost for a bunker, either a temporary turret addon or something to make it more durable.
Also they really need to polish the maps. I love how open they are but most of them need a couple of rocks to help protoss getting a third base.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
First of all: ZvT is heavily Zerg favoured and second of all army vs army is not fine. Zerg just amove banelings and mutas into Terran army and wins...
The proposed "buffs" are a joke as always...Protoss and Zerg get huge unit buffs, Terran just upgade costs LOL.
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It's sad how people keep giving Rain shit about his comments about balance. I recall Zergs saying the same sort of comments during the overpowered BL/Infestor era and no one laughed at them for whining about it. Funny how biased the community is towards certain players/races.
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On April 30 2014 14:45 mangofrancesco wrote:
It's sad how people keep giving Rain shit about his comments about balance. I recall Zergs saying the same sort of comments during the overpowered BL/Infestor era and no one laughed at them for whining about it. Funny how biased the community is towards certain players/races.
Rain said that Terran was as overpowered as BL/Infestor as Protoss won all but one of the past 8 (?) major tournies. But we're not supposed to find that ridiculous, because of your anecdotal evidence that some Zerg players did the same thing and you don't remember an uproar?
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On April 30 2014 09:31 Waise wrote:
i wish blizzard would continue pushing overall biomech synergy, as i feel that's what a lot of top koreans have been showing success with, and it's a lot of fun to watch
The helion upgrade will encourage exactly that
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On April 30 2014 14:47 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:45 mangofrancesco wrote:
It's sad how people keep giving Rain shit about his comments about balance. I recall Zergs saying the same sort of comments during the overpowered BL/Infestor era and no one laughed at them for whining about it. Funny how biased the community is towards certain players/races. Rain said that Terran was as overpowered as BL/Infestor as Protoss won all but one of the past 8 (?) major tournies. But we're not supposed to find that ridiculous, because of your anecdotal evidence that some Zerg players did the same thing and you don't remember an uproar?
So you really don't remember the Zerg whining about Protoss allins during BL/Infestor era?
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On April 30 2014 14:50 mangofrancesco wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:47 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:45 mangofrancesco wrote:
It's sad how people keep giving Rain shit about his comments about balance. I recall Zergs saying the same sort of comments during the overpowered BL/Infestor era and no one laughed at them for whining about it. Funny how biased the community is towards certain players/races. Rain said that Terran was as overpowered as BL/Infestor as Protoss won all but one of the past 8 (?) major tournies. But we're not supposed to find that ridiculous, because of your anecdotal evidence that some Zerg players did the same thing and you don't remember an uproar? So you really don't remember the Zerg whining about Protoss allins during BL/Infestor era?
Really a completely different situation. PvZ during BL/Infestor was a total coinflip because every game was a 2-base (or 3-base for Creator) all-in that entirely depended on how good the forcefields were, or if the game mysteriously reached the late phase, how good the Vortex/archon toilets were. The game design was terrible. I don't recall any zergs crying "wahh! wahh!! Protoss is winning everyyyyythiiiing!"
Rain wasn't complaining that PvT was rock-paper-scissors and poorly designed. He complained that it's impossible to beat Terran and they're going to dominate the whole scene. Hasn't exactly happened has it?
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EPT
