• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 02:41
CET 08:41
KST 16:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
[BSL23] RO16 Group Stage14Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?2Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23
StarCraft 2
General
Serral's getting trashed by New Catsle's Mind Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top? Liquibets sc2 season 30 No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon
Tourneys
soO & FanTaSy return! SC2 Kevin Scrim 4v4 (Nov 16) RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 Tasteless Time Warp: SC Evo Showmatch (May 25) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament iNu's Battles #22
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Starcraft 2 Advance [G] How to playtest arcade maps [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery BW General Discussion [BSL23] RO16 Group Stage screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool [BW] Looking for Clan Thread!
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL23] Ro16 Group C - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL23] Ro16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET 2v2v2v2 Tournament Stage 1: Community Poll
Strategy
Infested Terran strategies in 2026 Nuke strategy worked in K-League 2026-11-09 50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy)
Other Games
General Games
List of Game Threads The PlayStation 5 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Dating: How's your luck? European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The time I organised my…
AssyrianKing
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 14255 users

Balance Status Update 4/29/14

Forum Index > SC2 General
697 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 33 34 35 Next All
HelloSon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States456 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-01 20:24:35
April 30 2014 00:16 GMT
#1
[image loading]
via Existor

UPDATE

Thank you for your feedback everyone.

We just wanted to let you know that we’ve started putting together a balance test map and a balance test extension mod for the Hellion/Hellbat change.

The exact changes for this test map are:
- Removed Transformation Servos upgrade
- Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory


Please keep in mind these changes are not final, and we may test different and/or additional changes as needed during this testing phase. We’ll let you guys know once again when the map is published. Thank you, and we'll be looking forward to further feedback after you've played with the changes.


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/12675158150#1

We’d like to share our current thoughts and gather more detailed feedback from you on the current state of HotS balance.

PvT
Following the balance patch and then the Season 2 map update, we’re seeing that this matchup has gotten much better. However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss. Whether this is actually the case or another balance adjustment is needed remains in question.

ZvT
This matchup may have shifted slightly in-favor of Zerg recently. While we believe full army vs. army-play is fine, Zerg players seem to be getting to the later stages with an advantage more often than not. We’re investigating whether we can make a slight tweak earlier in the game to keep Zerg economy from scaling too quickly.

We believe ZvP is in a good place with a lot of diversity.

While we don’t currently believe that we need to take action hastily, we’d like to continue discussions with you and prepare well-tested changes, if they’re needed. There’s not a clear problem, and we may not issue a balance patch at this time, but we’re constantly on the lookout for signs that we need to get a balance test map going.

With that said, we have a couple of proposed changes that we could test. Please keep in mind, as always, this is an open discussion and nothing is even close to final. We do not yet have a balance test map.

Option 1:
- Terran infantry level 2 upgrade costs down from 175/175 to 150/150.
- Terran infantry level 3 upgrade costs down from 250/250 to 200/200.


The main thought behind this option is to allow Terran to pressure both Protoss and Zerg a bit more, so that they can keep up in army strength throughout the game. As you can see, saving 25/25 per upgrade at level 2 isn’t huge, but because it affects the core Terran army, we believe it will be fairly big in-game.

Option 2:
- Remove the transformation servos upgrade.
- Allow Hellions to transform to Hellbats when Hellbats are enabled with the armory.


This option addresses the concern that PvT is trending better than we expected, and ZvT worse than expected. At this point, we’re fairly certain that Protoss isn’t struggling against Terran (which runs contrary to pro feedback we’ve been receiving), but we’re also receiving pro feedback on ZvT that indicates we might want to have a bigger change lined up.

We saw the strength of not having this upgrade for the transform in the early HotS beta. However, since then, Hellbats have had their damage reduced and require the blue flame upgrade to be at their max strength. The main cool factor of reverting this upgrade is: being able to save the initial Hellions that players use to harass vs. not being able to do so will have a huge impact on the rest of the game. This means that players who are capable of microing well will be rewarded heavily.

Again, we want to hear what you think as we explore the possibilities. Thank you very much for your feedback.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/12673547828

Poll: Option 1 - lower Terran up cost

No (892)
 
57%

Yes (501)
 
32%

Meh (185)
 
12%

1578 total votes

Your vote: Option 1 - lower Terran up cost

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Meh



Poll: Option 2 - remove hellbat xform upgrade

Yes (1256)
 
77%

No (273)
 
17%

Meh (107)
 
7%

1636 total votes

Your vote: Option 2 - remove hellbat xform upgrade

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Meh



Facebook Twitter Reddit
yo
Greenei
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1754 Posts
April 30 2014 00:18 GMT
#2
I like it, it sounds reasonable. Especially #2 is a bit overdue since the dmgnerf.
IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA
juicyjames *
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3815 Posts
April 30 2014 00:21 GMT
#3
I feel like we should have some polls on the front page for opinions, but I'm not sure what they should say.
This Week in SC2Find out what happened 'This Week in Starcraft 2': http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
Yorkie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States12612 Posts
April 30 2014 00:23 GMT
#4
As a zerg, I'm pretty heavily against the upgrade cost change. There will always be a window where terran has 3/3 against 2/2 muta/ling/bling before hive is ready. I just don't want that window to be opened further
Hwang Kang Hooooooooooo. Follow mah boy Shellshock @Shellshock1122
Waise
Profile Joined June 2013
3165 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-30 00:24:18
April 30 2014 00:23 GMT
#5
shit, i read this wrong, i have to write a new post because i misunderstood
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12909 Posts
April 30 2014 00:26 GMT
#6
Removing transformation servos sounds good.
I personally think Hellbats should get unlocked by ebay and so the first big push from terran would have groups of Marines Window mines medivac reaper and hellbats which sounds pretty exciting to me
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Zoku
Profile Joined November 2010
307 Posts
April 30 2014 00:27 GMT
#7
Seeing as how the upgrade cost change is mostly for TvP, I'd rather they revert the Protoss upgrade cost to what they used to be a long time ago, then to change Terran's upgrade cost.
frozzz
Profile Joined July 2011
Croatia118 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-30 00:32:47
April 30 2014 00:30 GMT
#8
nice

both options are really good but honestly i think that protoss upgrades should be reverted to its original cost and not lowering terran ones

btw. allins with timewarp are still disgusting, does protoss really need timewarp when they have FF? why such spell wasnt needed in wol but it is in hots? i dont get it.

msc is so valuable already with being flying unit, dealing dmg,having recall and nexus cannon
STBomber .:. Bunny
aNoPHeLeS
Profile Joined December 2013
Australia7 Posts
April 30 2014 00:30 GMT
#9
From a protoss player: Look like good suggestions to improve Terran strength. But surprised they are not looking at Mothership Core. Nexus cannon still shuts down so many early threats and time warp increases strength of all-ins. Allows us both greedy plays and potent all-ins. Which is half the reason that P is so strong at the moment.
Waise
Profile Joined June 2013
3165 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-30 00:32:08
April 30 2014 00:31 GMT
#10
ok, i originally read this as blizzard wanting to reduce the cost of either +2 OR +3, not both. both is insane. i'm not disputing that terran is struggling vs z, but bringing back huge 3/3 windows is just solving one problem by bringing back another. i'm usually supportive of blizzard's balance philosophies compared to most, but 3/3 bio mutilating zerg armies is not something that will make the matchup better. just because zerg is doing well that doesn't mean we can suddenly afford fast hive. people were trying fast hive for 3/3 after the widow mine nerf and it still didn't work (and i mean fast enough to line up upgrades)

i wish blizzard would continue pushing overall biomech synergy, as i feel that's what a lot of top koreans have been showing success with, and it's a lot of fun to watch

as for zvp, i imagine a lot of people crying over no swarm host changes, but if you really understand the matchup from zerg's point of view you have to know that a straightup nerf or redesign to swarm hosts will very likely wreck the matchup for anything lategame/macro
Faust852
Profile Joined February 2012
Luxembourg4004 Posts
April 30 2014 00:31 GMT
#11
TERRAN BUFFF !!11§!11!1§1
Kevin_Sorbo
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada3217 Posts
April 30 2014 00:31 GMT
#12
On April 30 2014 09:23 Yorkie wrote:
As a zerg, I'm pretty heavily against the upgrade cost change. There will always be a window where terran has 3/3 against 2/2 muta/ling/bling before hive is ready. I just don't want that window to be opened further



yes I feel it has the potential to snowball too hard and that might trigger another nerf later down the road lol.
The mind is like a parachute, it doesnt work unless its open. - Zappa
Alacast
Profile Joined December 2011
United States205 Posts
April 30 2014 00:32 GMT
#13
On April 30 2014 09:23 Yorkie wrote:
As a zerg, I'm pretty heavily against the upgrade cost change. There will always be a window where terran has 3/3 against 2/2 muta/ling/bling before hive is ready. I just don't want that window to be opened further


Generally speaking, good Terran builds will have enough production facilities to maintain constant production and afford upgrades as soon as possible. It's infrequent to see Terrans struggling for the money to afford +2/2 or +3/3 in an even game, though it can sometimes be an issue for a few seconds. This small change in price may be just enough to allow production of a handful more units in the midgame would could change the tide of the battle, but I expect the actual upgrade situation to remain pretty much the same.
Let us not rail about justice as long as we have arms and the freedom to use them. -Frank Herbert
imrusty269
Profile Joined January 2014
United States1404 Posts
April 30 2014 00:34 GMT
#14
"At this point, we’re fairly certain that Protoss isn’t struggling against Terran (which runs contrary to pro feedback we’ve been receiving), but we’re also receiving pro feedback on ZvT that indicates we might want to have a bigger change lined up."

Rain is that you?
Bbyong | MMA | Polt | Dream | Maru | Mvp
Faust852
Profile Joined February 2012
Luxembourg4004 Posts
April 30 2014 00:35 GMT
#15
On April 30 2014 09:23 Yorkie wrote:
As a zerg, I'm pretty heavily against the upgrade cost change. There will always be a window where terran has 3/3 against 2/2 muta/ling/bling before hive is ready. I just don't want that window to be opened further


Won't change shit since you still start your upgrade right after the previous finished. Gaining 25/25 per upgrade is kinda nothing yaknow. It's not a huge change like protoss got as upgrade cost reduction.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-30 00:43:30
April 30 2014 00:42 GMT
#16
My thoughts:

About option 1:
Why are they always buffing bio more and more and when they finally say something like they are willing to cut costs on bio upgrades...why are they not willing to make armories 100/50 to help mech TvP and mech in general? Dkim seems to understand the concept that cutting a few 1 time upgrade costs can change the game entirely...but he's unwilling to do that for mech TvP via armories...

About option 2:
Yes, hellions/transform should have been like that since the game came out because we payed for an expansion pack where one of the highlighted units was the hellions gaining the ability to transform but you rarely ever see this in games at all, at least professional games because it's only researched with late late game mech.

So...yeah. About TvP, only the first 10-15 minutes are broken in Protoss favor because of all-ins and proxied stargates + ferraricles and blink all-in + MSC nexus cannon forcing Terran to go reaper expand virtually every game. Nexus cannon alone forces Terran to have to get a 2nd command center because there is no reasonable way to open 1 base banshee or 1 base drop since it will be shut down.

And about TvZ...only reason it looks more Z favored are because of the maps and because the widow mine nerf imo. The mine nerf right now is allowing Zerg to virtually mass 1 unit, the mutalisk almost unimpeded. Revert mine nerf, match-up is back to normal. Of course then Zergs will complain again that they can't box select 200/200 ling bane muta and walk through a mine field...but they should not have been able to like they can right now.

Sup
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-30 00:51:07
April 30 2014 00:50 GMT
#17
On April 30 2014 09:23 Yorkie wrote:
As a zerg, I'm pretty heavily against the upgrade cost change. There will always be a window where terran has 3/3 against 2/2 muta/ling/bling before hive is ready. I just don't want that window to be opened further

This doesn't change the timings of 1/1 and therefore doesn't change the timings of 2/2 or 3/3 in TvZ. 2/2 is already started right as 1/1 finishes and ditto 3/3 after 2/2.
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
April 30 2014 01:01 GMT
#18
Removing Transformation Servos is a good idea, the upgrades never really used and whenever an ability or research is never used that's probably a sign something should (or at least can) be changed.

Cheapening the upgrades seems incredibly minor (yay 50/50 less, it's like conc shells is free now!) but I'm not one to pass up terran buffs.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
Goofinator
Profile Joined September 2013
England45 Posts
April 30 2014 01:04 GMT
#19
Personally I think that the best change for Terran would be to increase the duration of speed boost on the medivacs, allowing them to pressure protoss faster and also to help vs mutas. Faster medivacs mean that you can actually transport the terran army around to deal with muta mobility and also means that if you are being aggressive with medivacs, the muta player has to be more careful when dealing with drops because chasing a medivac down means they will be pulled further out of position which a good terran can then take advantage of.
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52798 Posts
April 30 2014 01:05 GMT
#20
I like the hellbat upgrade change because I always forget it when I go mass hellion in TvT. I don't think the infantry upgrade change is really needed. If they're going to make TvP terran favored they could increase the research time for storm or something.
ModeratorI am still alive, somehow
TL+ Member
1 2 3 4 5 33 34 35 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 19m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech146
StarCraft: Brood War
Free 147
Barracks 99
NaDa 28
910 27
Noble 12
NotJumperer 10
Dota 2
monkeys_forever97
League of Legends
JimRising 570
Reynor52
Counter-Strike
fl0m3316
Other Games
summit1g10491
WinterStarcraft368
ceh9284
Mew2King256
C9.Mang0212
Happy161
Fuzer 86
NeuroSwarm86
KnowMe64
ViBE52
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2236
League of Legends
• Rush1193
• Lourlo819
• Stunt479
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
2h 19m
KCM Race Survival
2h 19m
WardiTV Invitational
4h 19m
Lambo vs Shameless
Rogue vs uThermal
Percival vs YoungYakov
TBD vs GgMaChine
OSC
8h 19m
OSC
15h 19m
ArT vs MindelVK
MiniZergUA vs TBD
Shameless vs TBD
Ultimate Battle
1d 4h
OSC
1d 6h
OSC
1d 15h
ByuN vs MaxPax
herO vs Krystianer
Percival vs Shameless
LetaleX vs YoungYakov
Nicoract vs Gerald
GgMaChine vs ArT
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
2 days
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
BSL
2 days
TerrOr vs OyAji
UltrA vs Gosudark
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
IPSL
3 days
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
BSL
3 days
Artosis vs Dewalt
Ret vs Tech
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-11
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
Individual League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

YSL S4
Sector 591
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
StarCraft2 Weekly Open Tournament 2026 Grand Finals
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.