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Balance Status Update 4/29/14

Forum Index > SC2 General
697 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 33 34 35 Next All
HelloSon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States456 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-01 20:24:35
April 30 2014 00:16 GMT
#1
[image loading]
via Existor

UPDATE

Thank you for your feedback everyone.

We just wanted to let you know that we’ve started putting together a balance test map and a balance test extension mod for the Hellion/Hellbat change.

The exact changes for this test map are:
- Removed Transformation Servos upgrade
- Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory


Please keep in mind these changes are not final, and we may test different and/or additional changes as needed during this testing phase. We’ll let you guys know once again when the map is published. Thank you, and we'll be looking forward to further feedback after you've played with the changes.


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/12675158150#1

We’d like to share our current thoughts and gather more detailed feedback from you on the current state of HotS balance.

PvT
Following the balance patch and then the Season 2 map update, we’re seeing that this matchup has gotten much better. However, we do believe the matchup is still slightly in favor of Protoss. Whether this is actually the case or another balance adjustment is needed remains in question.

ZvT
This matchup may have shifted slightly in-favor of Zerg recently. While we believe full army vs. army-play is fine, Zerg players seem to be getting to the later stages with an advantage more often than not. We’re investigating whether we can make a slight tweak earlier in the game to keep Zerg economy from scaling too quickly.

We believe ZvP is in a good place with a lot of diversity.

While we don’t currently believe that we need to take action hastily, we’d like to continue discussions with you and prepare well-tested changes, if they’re needed. There’s not a clear problem, and we may not issue a balance patch at this time, but we’re constantly on the lookout for signs that we need to get a balance test map going.

With that said, we have a couple of proposed changes that we could test. Please keep in mind, as always, this is an open discussion and nothing is even close to final. We do not yet have a balance test map.

Option 1:
- Terran infantry level 2 upgrade costs down from 175/175 to 150/150.
- Terran infantry level 3 upgrade costs down from 250/250 to 200/200.


The main thought behind this option is to allow Terran to pressure both Protoss and Zerg a bit more, so that they can keep up in army strength throughout the game. As you can see, saving 25/25 per upgrade at level 2 isn’t huge, but because it affects the core Terran army, we believe it will be fairly big in-game.

Option 2:
- Remove the transformation servos upgrade.
- Allow Hellions to transform to Hellbats when Hellbats are enabled with the armory.


This option addresses the concern that PvT is trending better than we expected, and ZvT worse than expected. At this point, we’re fairly certain that Protoss isn’t struggling against Terran (which runs contrary to pro feedback we’ve been receiving), but we’re also receiving pro feedback on ZvT that indicates we might want to have a bigger change lined up.

We saw the strength of not having this upgrade for the transform in the early HotS beta. However, since then, Hellbats have had their damage reduced and require the blue flame upgrade to be at their max strength. The main cool factor of reverting this upgrade is: being able to save the initial Hellions that players use to harass vs. not being able to do so will have a huge impact on the rest of the game. This means that players who are capable of microing well will be rewarded heavily.

Again, we want to hear what you think as we explore the possibilities. Thank you very much for your feedback.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/12673547828

Poll: Option 1 - lower Terran up cost

No (892)
 
57%

Yes (501)
 
32%

Meh (185)
 
12%

1578 total votes

Your vote: Option 1 - lower Terran up cost

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Meh



Poll: Option 2 - remove hellbat xform upgrade

Yes (1256)
 
77%

No (273)
 
17%

Meh (107)
 
7%

1636 total votes

Your vote: Option 2 - remove hellbat xform upgrade

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Meh



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yo
Greenei
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1754 Posts
April 30 2014 00:18 GMT
#2
I like it, it sounds reasonable. Especially #2 is a bit overdue since the dmgnerf.
IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA
juicyjames *
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3815 Posts
April 30 2014 00:21 GMT
#3
I feel like we should have some polls on the front page for opinions, but I'm not sure what they should say.
This Week in SC2Find out what happened 'This Week in Starcraft 2': http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
Yorkie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States12612 Posts
April 30 2014 00:23 GMT
#4
As a zerg, I'm pretty heavily against the upgrade cost change. There will always be a window where terran has 3/3 against 2/2 muta/ling/bling before hive is ready. I just don't want that window to be opened further
Hwang Kang Hooooooooooo. Follow mah boy Shellshock @Shellshock1122
Waise
Profile Joined June 2013
3165 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-30 00:24:18
April 30 2014 00:23 GMT
#5
shit, i read this wrong, i have to write a new post because i misunderstood
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12888 Posts
April 30 2014 00:26 GMT
#6
Removing transformation servos sounds good.
I personally think Hellbats should get unlocked by ebay and so the first big push from terran would have groups of Marines Window mines medivac reaper and hellbats which sounds pretty exciting to me
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Zoku
Profile Joined November 2010
307 Posts
April 30 2014 00:27 GMT
#7
Seeing as how the upgrade cost change is mostly for TvP, I'd rather they revert the Protoss upgrade cost to what they used to be a long time ago, then to change Terran's upgrade cost.
frozzz
Profile Joined July 2011
Croatia118 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-30 00:32:47
April 30 2014 00:30 GMT
#8
nice

both options are really good but honestly i think that protoss upgrades should be reverted to its original cost and not lowering terran ones

btw. allins with timewarp are still disgusting, does protoss really need timewarp when they have FF? why such spell wasnt needed in wol but it is in hots? i dont get it.

msc is so valuable already with being flying unit, dealing dmg,having recall and nexus cannon
STBomber .:. Bunny
aNoPHeLeS
Profile Joined December 2013
Australia7 Posts
April 30 2014 00:30 GMT
#9
From a protoss player: Look like good suggestions to improve Terran strength. But surprised they are not looking at Mothership Core. Nexus cannon still shuts down so many early threats and time warp increases strength of all-ins. Allows us both greedy plays and potent all-ins. Which is half the reason that P is so strong at the moment.
Waise
Profile Joined June 2013
3165 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-30 00:32:08
April 30 2014 00:31 GMT
#10
ok, i originally read this as blizzard wanting to reduce the cost of either +2 OR +3, not both. both is insane. i'm not disputing that terran is struggling vs z, but bringing back huge 3/3 windows is just solving one problem by bringing back another. i'm usually supportive of blizzard's balance philosophies compared to most, but 3/3 bio mutilating zerg armies is not something that will make the matchup better. just because zerg is doing well that doesn't mean we can suddenly afford fast hive. people were trying fast hive for 3/3 after the widow mine nerf and it still didn't work (and i mean fast enough to line up upgrades)

i wish blizzard would continue pushing overall biomech synergy, as i feel that's what a lot of top koreans have been showing success with, and it's a lot of fun to watch

as for zvp, i imagine a lot of people crying over no swarm host changes, but if you really understand the matchup from zerg's point of view you have to know that a straightup nerf or redesign to swarm hosts will very likely wreck the matchup for anything lategame/macro
Faust852
Profile Joined February 2012
Luxembourg4004 Posts
April 30 2014 00:31 GMT
#11
TERRAN BUFFF !!11§!11!1§1
Kevin_Sorbo
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada3217 Posts
April 30 2014 00:31 GMT
#12
On April 30 2014 09:23 Yorkie wrote:
As a zerg, I'm pretty heavily against the upgrade cost change. There will always be a window where terran has 3/3 against 2/2 muta/ling/bling before hive is ready. I just don't want that window to be opened further



yes I feel it has the potential to snowball too hard and that might trigger another nerf later down the road lol.
The mind is like a parachute, it doesnt work unless its open. - Zappa
Alacast
Profile Joined December 2011
United States205 Posts
April 30 2014 00:32 GMT
#13
On April 30 2014 09:23 Yorkie wrote:
As a zerg, I'm pretty heavily against the upgrade cost change. There will always be a window where terran has 3/3 against 2/2 muta/ling/bling before hive is ready. I just don't want that window to be opened further


Generally speaking, good Terran builds will have enough production facilities to maintain constant production and afford upgrades as soon as possible. It's infrequent to see Terrans struggling for the money to afford +2/2 or +3/3 in an even game, though it can sometimes be an issue for a few seconds. This small change in price may be just enough to allow production of a handful more units in the midgame would could change the tide of the battle, but I expect the actual upgrade situation to remain pretty much the same.
Let us not rail about justice as long as we have arms and the freedom to use them. -Frank Herbert
imrusty269
Profile Joined January 2014
United States1404 Posts
April 30 2014 00:34 GMT
#14
"At this point, we’re fairly certain that Protoss isn’t struggling against Terran (which runs contrary to pro feedback we’ve been receiving), but we’re also receiving pro feedback on ZvT that indicates we might want to have a bigger change lined up."

Rain is that you?
Bbyong | MMA | Polt | Dream | Maru | Mvp
Faust852
Profile Joined February 2012
Luxembourg4004 Posts
April 30 2014 00:35 GMT
#15
On April 30 2014 09:23 Yorkie wrote:
As a zerg, I'm pretty heavily against the upgrade cost change. There will always be a window where terran has 3/3 against 2/2 muta/ling/bling before hive is ready. I just don't want that window to be opened further


Won't change shit since you still start your upgrade right after the previous finished. Gaining 25/25 per upgrade is kinda nothing yaknow. It's not a huge change like protoss got as upgrade cost reduction.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-30 00:43:30
April 30 2014 00:42 GMT
#16
My thoughts:

About option 1:
Why are they always buffing bio more and more and when they finally say something like they are willing to cut costs on bio upgrades...why are they not willing to make armories 100/50 to help mech TvP and mech in general? Dkim seems to understand the concept that cutting a few 1 time upgrade costs can change the game entirely...but he's unwilling to do that for mech TvP via armories...

About option 2:
Yes, hellions/transform should have been like that since the game came out because we payed for an expansion pack where one of the highlighted units was the hellions gaining the ability to transform but you rarely ever see this in games at all, at least professional games because it's only researched with late late game mech.

So...yeah. About TvP, only the first 10-15 minutes are broken in Protoss favor because of all-ins and proxied stargates + ferraricles and blink all-in + MSC nexus cannon forcing Terran to go reaper expand virtually every game. Nexus cannon alone forces Terran to have to get a 2nd command center because there is no reasonable way to open 1 base banshee or 1 base drop since it will be shut down.

And about TvZ...only reason it looks more Z favored are because of the maps and because the widow mine nerf imo. The mine nerf right now is allowing Zerg to virtually mass 1 unit, the mutalisk almost unimpeded. Revert mine nerf, match-up is back to normal. Of course then Zergs will complain again that they can't box select 200/200 ling bane muta and walk through a mine field...but they should not have been able to like they can right now.

Sup
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-30 00:51:07
April 30 2014 00:50 GMT
#17
On April 30 2014 09:23 Yorkie wrote:
As a zerg, I'm pretty heavily against the upgrade cost change. There will always be a window where terran has 3/3 against 2/2 muta/ling/bling before hive is ready. I just don't want that window to be opened further

This doesn't change the timings of 1/1 and therefore doesn't change the timings of 2/2 or 3/3 in TvZ. 2/2 is already started right as 1/1 finishes and ditto 3/3 after 2/2.
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
April 30 2014 01:01 GMT
#18
Removing Transformation Servos is a good idea, the upgrades never really used and whenever an ability or research is never used that's probably a sign something should (or at least can) be changed.

Cheapening the upgrades seems incredibly minor (yay 50/50 less, it's like conc shells is free now!) but I'm not one to pass up terran buffs.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
Goofinator
Profile Joined September 2013
England45 Posts
April 30 2014 01:04 GMT
#19
Personally I think that the best change for Terran would be to increase the duration of speed boost on the medivacs, allowing them to pressure protoss faster and also to help vs mutas. Faster medivacs mean that you can actually transport the terran army around to deal with muta mobility and also means that if you are being aggressive with medivacs, the muta player has to be more careful when dealing with drops because chasing a medivac down means they will be pulled further out of position which a good terran can then take advantage of.
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52798 Posts
April 30 2014 01:05 GMT
#20
I like the hellbat upgrade change because I always forget it when I go mass hellion in TvT. I don't think the infantry upgrade change is really needed. If they're going to make TvP terran favored they could increase the research time for storm or something.
ModeratorI am still alive, somehow
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