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On April 30 2014 11:26 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 11:15 Noocta wrote:
The HotS units are such a mess.
Swarm Hosts make for awful gameplay, Mines were great but got nerfed to oblivion, Hellbat will always either be useless or broken and their tie to Hellion is useless, Tempest are anecdotal, Oracles are just an opening gimmick, ...
Only Viper and to a minor extend the Mothership core end up okay.
No wonder Blizzard is hesitant to add new units to LotV. This pretty much sums up starcraft 2. Why are so many mechanics removed, in brood war, there were so many more things you had to do if you wanted to be a good player. Things like swarmhosts, storms, mines make sc2 an anti-micro game. Skill-less units should not be allowed in a skillful game.
have you ever played sc1? why mindlessly bashing sc2 for no reason?
already in sc2 its clear that storms and mines at a high level do reward a lot of micro. blink dodging mines, retargetting mines, splitting army vs mines, moving away when pre-fire indicator of mine shows up, etc requires micro
storms require mindgaming and predicting opponent movement, keeping HT alive til they are in position, and take a lot of micro to dodge / handle well on the defense.
only swarmhosts in your example is valid, and i think no one would argue otherwise.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
Im fully supporting option 2.
Lets test the map!
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remove swarm host, enter lurker...
i think somewhere blizz said they were open to the idea in LoTV. Before that, they were adamant about not introducing it...
The 2nd option sounds good. now all thats left is that unbelievable mech into bio stat change...
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On April 30 2014 12:26 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 12:06 WiggyB wrote:On April 30 2014 11:38 LongShot27 wrote:On April 30 2014 11:36 WiggyB wrote:On April 30 2014 11:30 ProBell wrote:
Make widow mines or siege tank splash damage not attack friendly units or do less damage to friendlies?
Banelings / Colossus / Archons / Fungals / Ultralisk all don't have friendly-fire. Actually, that's a not a bad idea. Why does Terran splash have friendly fire anyway? When artillery or a mine explodes, it doesn't discriminate based on who's it is Yeah, but why? Colossus mega death beams don't cause friendly fire, baneling explosions don't hurt any other banelings or zerglings. Huge swiping ultralisks arms don't hurt anyone else. Though, i can see if widow mine friendly fire was taken away it would be really, really hard for a zerg to engage a burrowed widow mine / bio force. But maybe siege tanks? I know it's lore breaking, but it multi player balance we're talking here. Because it's actual balance and dynamics that makes the play interesting. Storm also does friendly fire, woudl you like to see that changed?
Oh you should not have said that, you really shouldn't have said that.
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Really do not want a hellbat buff. ZvT has always lead sc2 on a good engaging highly skill based matchup. Hellbats are not highly skillful units. If ZvT is imbalanced buff the tank or the mine I don't care, just do something that makes the game more skill based not this.
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United States4126 Posts
On April 30 2014 09:34 imrusty269 wrote:
"At this point, we’re fairly certain that Protoss isn’t struggling against Terran (which runs contrary to pro feedback we’ve been receiving), but we’re also receiving pro feedback on ZvT that indicates we might want to have a bigger change lined up."
Rain is that you?
Pretty sure Parting's in there too 
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regarding time warp, it would be interesting to see it moved to the full mothership and maybe buffed a little, it doesn't seem necessary early game when you have forcefields and a nexus cannon
regarding tvz, the winrates have been very zerg favored lately, when you look at any recent tournament you see toss and zerg in the late stages, sure, but it's usually the zerg knocking out the terrans, not the protoss. the second buff (insta hellbat transforms) will help tvz enough and help tvp without breaking it.
basically terran needs help, toss should maybe have one less early game option but is otherwise fine, zerg is mostly fine since swarm hosts aren't popular.
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On April 30 2014 13:23 Kinky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 09:34 imrusty269 wrote:
"At this point, we’re fairly certain that Protoss isn’t struggling against Terran (which runs contrary to pro feedback we’ve been receiving), but we’re also receiving pro feedback on ZvT that indicates we might want to have a bigger change lined up."
Rain is that you? Pretty sure Parting's in there too
Don't forget Alicia and Crank.
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hellbat change could be fun.
I also dont mind if they change the upgrade costs, it'll promote bio vs zerg again which imo is one of the most fun to play/watch.
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also they might want to change the widow mine instead of the hellbat.
pre-patch mines did 60 splash in a 1.75 radius.
post-patch mines do 40(+40)/20(+20)/10(+10) damage in a 1.25/1.5/1.75 radius. (parentheses is bonus dmg to shields)
they could change it to 60(+20)/30(+10)/15(+5), this would help tvz and have a very minor impact on tvp.
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
I just don't see the change to 2/2 doing anything aside from placebo effect - a single scv not dieing at the 5 minute mark would have a far greater effect on the game, in terms of resources
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On April 30 2014 13:29 Cyro wrote:
I just don't see the change to 2/2 doing anything aside from placebo effect - a single scv not dieing at the 5 minute mark would have a far greater effect on the game, in terms of resources
oh yeah they should also undo the oracle patch from last november.
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On April 30 2014 13:24 Cheren wrote:
regarding time warp, it would be interesting to see it moved to the full mothership and maybe buffed a little, it doesn't seem necessary early game when you have forcefields and a nexus cannon
regarding tvz, the winrates have been very zerg favored lately, when you look at any recent tournament you see toss and zerg in the late stages, sure, but it's usually the zerg knocking out the terrans, not the protoss. the second buff (insta hellbat transforms) will help tvz enough and help tvp without breaking it.
basically terran needs help, toss should maybe have one less early game option but is otherwise fine, zerg is mostly fine since swarm hosts aren't popular.
Hellion to hellbat will not help tvp because hellions are not made in tvp except for the rare 1 or 2 made along with quick gas, widow mine drops. Those 1 or 2 rarely survive and even if they did having 2 hellbats instead of 2 hellions isn't going to change much of anything.
Most of the complaints I hear even from pros is the mothership core nexus cannon. I don't understand why blizzard won't even entertain the idea of looking at changing it.
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On April 30 2014 13:30 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 13:24 Cheren wrote:
regarding time warp, it would be interesting to see it moved to the full mothership and maybe buffed a little, it doesn't seem necessary early game when you have forcefields and a nexus cannon
regarding tvz, the winrates have been very zerg favored lately, when you look at any recent tournament you see toss and zerg in the late stages, sure, but it's usually the zerg knocking out the terrans, not the protoss. the second buff (insta hellbat transforms) will help tvz enough and help tvp without breaking it.
basically terran needs help, toss should maybe have one less early game option but is otherwise fine, zerg is mostly fine since swarm hosts aren't popular. Hellion to hellbat will not help tvp because hellions are not made in tvp except for the rare 1 or 2 made along with quick gas, widow mine drops. Those 1 or 2 rarely survive and even if they did having 2 hellbats instead of 2 hellions isn't going to change much of anything. Most of the complaints I hear even from pros is the mothership core nexus cannon. I don't understand why blizzard won't even entertain the idea of looking at changing it.
Nerfing nexus cannon will make TvP terran all-ins vs toss all-ins, nerfing time warp will make terran able to survive more all-ins, I really don't see the benefit of going after nexus cannon over time warp, especially since the nexus cannon is pretty much necessary for macro PvP.
Also I think they should buff widow mine not hellbat I had an idea a few posts up.
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Protosses were macroing even before the nexus cannon was introduced?
Terrans don't all in protosses anymore because of the threat of oracles. They weren't exactly allining every game before the nexus cannon. Nexus cannons allow the protoss to all in, fail, and still survive. That should not happen in SC2.
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On April 30 2014 13:16 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 12:26 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2014 12:06 WiggyB wrote:On April 30 2014 11:38 LongShot27 wrote:On April 30 2014 11:36 WiggyB wrote:On April 30 2014 11:30 ProBell wrote:
Make widow mines or siege tank splash damage not attack friendly units or do less damage to friendlies?
Banelings / Colossus / Archons / Fungals / Ultralisk all don't have friendly-fire. Actually, that's a not a bad idea. Why does Terran splash have friendly fire anyway? When artillery or a mine explodes, it doesn't discriminate based on who's it is Yeah, but why? Colossus mega death beams don't cause friendly fire, baneling explosions don't hurt any other banelings or zerglings. Huge swiping ultralisks arms don't hurt anyone else. Though, i can see if widow mine friendly fire was taken away it would be really, really hard for a zerg to engage a burrowed widow mine / bio force. But maybe siege tanks? I know it's lore breaking, but it multi player balance we're talking here. Because it's actual balance and dynamics that makes the play interesting. Storm also does friendly fire, woudl you like to see that changed? Oh you should not have said that, you really shouldn't have said that.
as if protoss units care about storm duh. I'd trade storm for mines in that regard any day.
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On April 30 2014 13:38 KingofGods wrote:
Protosses were macroing even before the nexus cannon was introduced?
Terrans don't all in protosses anymore because of the threat of oracles. They weren't exactly allining every game before the nexus cannon. Nexus cannons allow the protoss to all in, fail, and still survive. That should not happen in SC2.
Nexus cannon also allows map-makers to not have to design maps around protoss being able to survive 1-1-1, which is even stronger now with cheaper banshee cloak and the existence of mines. Nerf the all-ins directly through time warp and reverting the oracle buff, don't remove protoss' ability to defend all ins in PvT and PvP.
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I can not read that. Teran is weakest race by very simple reason: There are very little terran in EVERY level of play.
That is strongest indicator of balance. Taken that majority players start to play game as terran, I do not know who want to be a slimy zerg or robotic protos, Imbalance in favor of other races is huge.
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Why not both options? It makes going bio that much more even mid-game TvP dropping the costs and hellbats become useful meching TvP. Honestly TvZ is pretty even so I'm not sure how that matchup would be effected.
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At this point, we’re fairly certain that Protoss isn’t struggling against Terran (which runs contrary to pro feedback we’ve been receiving)
oh those dastardly Protoss pros :p. The union of Rain is strong.
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Anyway, I think the hellbat change is reasonable. The Upgrade change seems too strong against zerg (faster 3/3 is crippling). I think they should just strongly consider improving the widow mine with regards to TvZ. It's like the snipe nerf all over again, where they went too far.
I'm really alarmed that nothing is mentioned about the continued issues of the SH or the complete failure of the hydralisk buff in breaking the roach dominance of ZvZ and diversifying ZvT. Seems as though they've been put on the back burner to be forgotten...
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EPT
