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On April 30 2014 14:31 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On April 30 2014 14:13 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:00 KingofGods wrote:
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta. I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. 4gate was the dominant strategy well into 2012, and was completely viable on most maps up until HotS. Yeah, in silver. Go look up a handful Korean PvP VODs from 2011-12. Not going to make a specific guess in terms of the percentages, but I would guess that almost all of them are going to be either 4gate, 3-stalker rush, or blink all-in.
So I have gone through the MC vs Seed series. Despite being an incredibly cheesy series with tons of 1base allins, not one 4gate.
Then I randomly chose Rain vs HerO from Season 4 2012. In g2 Hero did a 4gate, because he had a hidden probe in Rains main. Rain still held the inbase 4gate and proceeded to win the game.
The other two games? No 4gate rushes.
4gate as a standard build was dead in 2012. Don't care about 2011, that was never the discussion, nor is it relevant for how PvP played out towards the end of WoL.
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On April 30 2014 14:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:31 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On April 30 2014 14:13 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:00 KingofGods wrote:
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta. I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. 4gate was the dominant strategy well into 2012, and was completely viable on most maps up until HotS. Yeah, in silver. Go look up a handful Korean PvP VODs from 2011-12. Not going to make a specific guess in terms of the percentages, but I would guess that almost all of them are going to be either 4gate, 3-stalker rush, or blink all-in. So I have gone through the MC vs Seed series. Despite being an incredibly cheesy series with tons of 1base allins, not one 4gate. Then I randomly chose Rain vs HerO from Season 4 2012. In g2 Hero did a 4gate, because he had a hidden probe in Rains main. Rain still held the inbase 4gate and proceeded to win the game. The other two games? No 4gate rushes. 4gate as a standard build was dead in 2012. Don't care about 2011, that was never the discussion, nor is it relevant for how PvP played out towards the end of WoL.
lol okay, so I guess that means Liquid'HerO is silver league because he 4gated?
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The upgrade cost buff. What is that supposed to fix?
Terran upgrades happen later than the Protoss upgrades and cannot be boosted either, so the cost difference is negligable. Allowing autocast on the next tier upgrades would make the windows faster than this buff.
No to the upgrade buff
Transformation Servos... I'm very unsure of this. The Hellion Reaper poke can turn into a vicious attack with 1/1 Stim and 6/8 Hellbats. Zerg should be on a low but snipable baneling count to hold this attack. I could see that becoming a bit of a problem. I do like the upgrade gone, as it makes early game hellions have a use later on.
Conclusion; Buff 1 is worthless, buff 2 is good, but might be too much.
Other suggestions;
Faster Stim, to deal with Protoss shenanigans better,
Weaken Overcharge one way or another, to allow both races to pick a strategy instead of only one race,
buff Siege Tanks, because it's one of the best designed and most iconic units in the game and the Steppes of War nerfs is received are way to hard for Alterzim with it's quadruple rush distance.
They're apparantly happy with swarmhosts. I'm not. Redesign them.
All in all, slightly disappointed by Davids comments, but at least they admit they have to take some action.
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Austria24417 Posts
The upgrades? Of all things to address in TvZ they choose the one thing where terran is already at its strongest (upgrade timings) and they wanna buff that? That doesn't make sense to me.
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I do not like the Transform being free, mostly due to TvT :/
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On April 30 2014 14:50 mangofrancesco wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:47 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:45 mangofrancesco wrote:
It's sad how people keep giving Rain shit about his comments about balance. I recall Zergs saying the same sort of comments during the overpowered BL/Infestor era and no one laughed at them for whining about it. Funny how biased the community is towards certain players/races. Rain said that Terran was as overpowered as BL/Infestor as Protoss won all but one of the past 8 (?) major tournies. But we're not supposed to find that ridiculous, because of your anecdotal evidence that some Zerg players did the same thing and you don't remember an uproar? So you really don't remember the Zerg whining about Protoss allins during BL/Infestor era?
They did that while at the same time dodging all the Protoss players saying "If you take away immortal/sentry, then PvZ will become 20%+ skewed in Zerg's favour". I seem to remember someone looking at all the Korean pro level PvZs and factoring out immortal/sentry games and seeing what the PvZ winrate percentage was. From what I remember it was pretty ugly. The matchup only stayed near 50% because of immortal/sentry.
Only near the start of HOTS/end of WOL did non-immortal/sentry strategies (usually colossus pre-hive timings) start to become prevalent. Still all-ins usually (except that madness MC did where he went mass carrier/void/HT and rolled a Zerg who went broodlord/infestor/queen/mass static defence on Akilon Flats. That entire series was insane. It was MC playing pure turtle to a massive air army and rolling his opponent), but just not immortal/sentry.
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On April 30 2014 14:34 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On April 30 2014 14:13 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:00 KingofGods wrote:
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta. I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. 4gate was the dominant strategy well into 2012, and was completely viable on most maps up until HotS. Yeah, in silver. Even in pro games 4 gate was super popular as a strategy. Many games wound up being variants of 4 gates as well, ranging from 4 gate warp prism to the korean 4 gate, or 4 gate blink, etc.
yeah, but Prism+4gate is not what "revert back to 4gate vs 4gate" means. And yes, 1base play was very dominant even at the end of WoL. I don't see the difference though.
It's not like PvP isn't rush vs rush anymore, it's just the rushes that changed because the existance of the MsC beats certain bruteforce rushes (like 4gate or 4gate prism), while it's existance causes Protoss players to play blink and DTs or Oracles off of 1gate and thus be very vulnerable to proxy gates. Not to mention how the builds themselves are still superaggressive.
On April 30 2014 14:56 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 14:54 Big J wrote:On April 30 2014 14:31 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On April 30 2014 14:13 LightSpectra wrote:On April 30 2014 14:00 KingofGods wrote:
You seem to think PvP will revert back to 4 gate vs. 4 gate if they remove the nexus cannon. The matchup hasn't been like that since WoL beta. I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. 4gate was the dominant strategy well into 2012, and was completely viable on most maps up until HotS. Yeah, in silver. Go look up a handful Korean PvP VODs from 2011-12. Not going to make a specific guess in terms of the percentages, but I would guess that almost all of them are going to be either 4gate, 3-stalker rush, or blink all-in. So I have gone through the MC vs Seed series. Despite being an incredibly cheesy series with tons of 1base allins, not one 4gate. Then I randomly chose Rain vs HerO from Season 4 2012. In g2 Hero did a 4gate, because he had a hidden probe in Rains main. Rain still held the inbase 4gate and proceeded to win the game. The other two games? No 4gate rushes. 4gate as a standard build was dead in 2012. Don't care about 2011, that was never the discussion, nor is it relevant for how PvP played out towards the end of WoL. lol okay, so I guess that means Liquid'HerO is silver league because he 4gated?
If your understanding of "being the dominant strategy" is that out of 8games it is being done once, then I guess so.
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On April 30 2014 15:04 Big J wrote:
If your understanding of "being the dominant strategy" is that out of 8games it is being done once, then I guess so.
Dominant PvP strategy of WoL can be measured by two PvP series?
Getting past this nonsense. The claim was that PvP being all 1base all-ins around the time WoL beta ended. So, tell me, of the VODs you saw, how many of them were 1base all-ins (primarily 4gate but also 3-stalker rush, DT rush, blink all-in, et al.)?
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ZvP
I think the matchup is in a good place atm, the sentry/msc bullshit is still as aggravating as always but what to do.
ZvT
I think the matchup is good, maybe the terrans hasn't really adapted after the wm nerf though. Which they should, they sure as hell as adapted to the wm buff in TvP =P
Just outragous that Z is not supposed to be able to get the eco going. T is disgustingly cost efficient against Z if controlled well, especially early game. Slow banes against well microed marines is just lol, and speedlings against a marine ball in a corner is just even more lol.
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Shuffleblade, from your comments, it seems like you are just bad at taking engagements...
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"we accept zerg has very strong late composition vs terran, that is why we want terran to be stronger midgame". David Kim as always tries to avoid the problem instead of working on it.
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On April 30 2014 15:38 Strelok wrote:
"we accept zerg has very strong late composition vs terran, that is why we want terran to be stronger midgame". David Kim as always tries to avoid the problem instead of working on it.
Please tell me that this "strong late game composition" doesn't involve ultras cuz it makes me kinda tilted. Supply depots kinda good counter to the ultras LOL
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I honestly don't understand what some people are saying in this thread. So much complaining it's making my head hurt.
About the upgrades, I don't think It is that relevant since the terran economy at this point is usually strong enough to afford those at current price anyway, so, like many said, what's the point? Is it to allow for a faster switch to ghost? Ot is it to make terran reach 3-3 easier vs zerg? There needs to be some clarification on that.
About the hellbats, given the fact that no matter the upgrades (blue flame etc) hellbats destroy any lings based composition, that mean that zerg will have to have roaches early game to defend against even something like the usual 6 hellions + 2 reapers poke. Which in my opinion sucks for the game. For the TvP side of things, I would love to see more hellbats in the matchups but I don't believe the servo upgrade is behind the lack of hellbats/ mech in general in TvP. Maybe I'm wrong though.
And I know I shouldn't but I just want to say to those that want to nerf the msc that protoss units are FAR more expensive than any of the other races, so making a lot of units early game to defend is a huge deal. It will mean that protoss is entering the midgame with a huge deficit. That will mean revert back to turtling strats and hoping the 200/200 death army or some other 2 base all in will win the game. Even if msc has its flaws, I believe it's a good thing
The way I see it, the game is pretty good in terms of balance atm (at least from what I've watched in the past couple of weeks), and even if terran seems sometimes on the backfoot, it's more due to their lack of options (like vsZ and vsP is almost always bio-only). Maybe the hellbat change could be in the right direction, but I fear the Z's early game will suffer greatly from it. Also would it be possible to explore ways to give terran the option to transition into starport based tech later on? I saw what It can do vs Z and it's pretty amazing, and maybe it coud be good against Protoss? who knows.
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TERRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN
I like that they don't nerf anything in ZvP. It's more of a design problem than a balance issue. It actually works pretty well.
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On April 30 2014 15:43 Cheeseling wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 15:38 Strelok wrote:
"we accept zerg has very strong late composition vs terran, that is why we want terran to be stronger midgame". David Kim as always tries to avoid the problem instead of working on it. Please tell me that this "strong late game composition" doesn't involve ultras cuz it makes me kinda tilted. Supply depots kinda good counter to the ultras LOL
If you opponent uses depots to kill your Ultralisk, why aren't you microing or expandin?
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On April 30 2014 09:30 frozzz wrote:
nice
both options are really good but honestly i think that protoss upgrades should be reverted to its original cost and not lowering terran ones
btw. allins with timewarp are still disgusting, does protoss really need timewarp when they have FF? why such spell wasnt needed in wol but it is in hots? i dont get it.
msc is so valuable already with being flying unit, dealing dmg,having recall and nexus cannon
Because it's COOL....
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Why? I don´t understand the changes:
- Buff Bio upgrades: OK you get your upgrades a little early so you can have a couple of timing attacks but besides that, what, nothing changes, same strategies, same problems, same complains about all-ins, etc...
- Transformation Servos: besides transform some of your early helions to Hellbats and make a nice transition in TvZ, I don´t know how this is going to improve Sc2 playing as T.
Really disappointing, Is this the so called "strategy" game where you are limited to 1 strategy (Bio) against P y 1 strategy against Z?
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On April 30 2014 15:26 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 15:04 Big J wrote:
If your understanding of "being the dominant strategy" is that out of 8games it is being done once, then I guess so. Dominant PvP strategy of WoL can be measured by two PvP series? Getting past this nonsense. The claim was that PvP being all 1base all-ins around the time WoL beta ended. So, tell me, of the VODs you saw, how many of them were 1base all-ins (primarily 4gate but also 3-stalker rush, DT rush, blink all-in, et al.)?
Lol... It was you who suggested to measure by random series. I only delivered. If you don't like that as an argument, don't request it in the first place.
On April 30 2014 14:31 LightSpectra wrote:Go look up a handful Korean PvP VODs from 2011-12.
Most of them were 1base plays. That wasn't the point. The point was that
a) 4gate was not dominant. It was a rare rush that you'd sometimes mix in.
b) that despite the existance of the MsC, PvP still does not feature expansion builds. You are still not safe early game without doing some form of rush yourself. It's nice to see that on Maze or in general rather stargate favored maps PvP can be quite stable, but you also get sOs vs herO series filled with 1base cheeses and Stork just randomly throwing in a 5:30 3warpgate rush in proleague. Lots and lots of BO losses still...
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Option 2 definetely. Like David said they have already made nerfs to the hellbat so this is a small change that will benefit hellion openers and maybe, just maybe promote mech a bit more.
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I think people are blowing the suggested upgrade buff way out of proportion. Terran players in TvZ already start the next set of upgrades as soon as first one finishes anyway and the cost reduction is not so high to make a huge difference. It means basically having a few extra units out.
But if there is a problem in TvZ, it isn't upgrades for terran. The bigger problem when going bio is dealing with mutas. All terran anti air options stayed the same compared to WoL (while mutas got much stronger) and WM got nerfed. So if there is any buff we need in TvZ, it would be thor speed buff. Right now, when playing bio, you must go for thors because mines alone are not good enough anymore. And using 1.88 speed thors obviously slows down bio and in a way removes one of its strengths -mobility, which means zerg with a big muta flock can buy a lot of time to get to hive tech units like ultras, even if they are losing the game. Especially when we consider that maps are overall getting bigger and bigger. It made sense to increase overlord speed for better scouting, I don't see why thors should move at 1.88 considering the map sizes in Hots.
I like the hellbat/hellion change. The transformation ability is very useful but basically impossible to afford when going mech so it is usually something you would get basically around the time you are getting turret range and building armor in current gameplay which means a alot of missed opportunity to use the ability during the game.
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EPT
